413 thoughts on “Open Discussion: Week of May 13, 2018

  1. I’ve seen 2 very positive developments this week above and beyond the outcome on any given today.

    First, Gabe Kapler has belatedly figured out that Carlos Santana’s proper place in the batting order is behind Rhys Hoskins. I assumed that when Santana was signed that this would be a Day 1 occurrence since the congestion that Santana presents to the team on the field can be justified only if Santana helped maximize Hoskins’ bat by offering cover in the batting order.

    Second, there is hope that Kapler is taking a fresh look at the closer role. Hector Neris has seriously under-performed and instills no confidence — at least with fans to say nothing of how Jake Arrieta and other starters might view the matter. Kapler has maximum freedom since no free agent or other pitcher was signed to the big bucks contract that often goes along with the closer’s role.

    So there is the opportunity for Kapler to experiment and see to whom assignment of pitching one clean final inning is not too large a task. Kapler might even decide to assign the role to multiple players and assure that, if the Phils continue to hold leads in the late innings, that overuse of one closer doesn’t become a problem.

    Against the argument that a bullpen performs best when each reliever knows his exact role is the case where a player (Neris) under-performs when knowing he will be thrust in situations to protect a small lead for a team contending to take over its division lead. For a youngish team with some new members in the pen, I think the emphasis should be on coming in to pitch one or perhaps more than one clean inning, whether it’s the 5th inning, the 9th inning or extra innings.

      1. It is Jim’s site and he can do what he wants. But it is silly eliminating the daily comment section. If kids do well they will be praised. If they do lousy they will be criticized. That is the nature of professional sports. Nothing said in the comments section will determine the success or failure of the former first round picks or anybody else in the organization. Everybody will need to stand on their own performances.

        1. IMO, from one viewpoint, it can put Jim in a very precarious position.
          He does have interaction with parents and families of the prospects.
          They read PP.
          They see and read comments that are pretty difficult for a parent or family member to take.

          1. If it bothers them that much then they simply shouldn’t be reading. If you’re a historically bad first round pick, first overall pick, etc then the comments section of a fan based blog should really be the least of your concerns.

            No one is commenting about the person, they’re commenting about the baseball player. And lets be honest, MM has been awful, Randolph has been worse, and Haseley has so far shown nothing. Being passionate about the status of 3 straight top 10 picks (one who was 1.1) slowly but surely circling the drain is not exactly out of line.

            1. This is exactly why the comments have been shut down. What many on here do not understand – because they re not professional scouts or even in development of professional players, is that the line at the end of the game does not tell you everything about each AB a player had. You have no idea what the player and the hitting instructor are working on. You have no idea what the feedback from the coaches after each AB is. You are not there watching each pitch and each AB – all you care about is BA or that they were 0-4.

            2. No, but you can read scouts/ FO execs are saying which reinforce the dreadful stats being posted by these high picks. Claiming that the stats are irrelevant is so ridiculous to the point that its laughable. One 0-4 may be insignificant, however several years worth of below average stat lines speak volumes.

        2. Exactly, he runs the site, but people do comment on the daily scores and mixing those comments in with the general comments makes it hard to keep your place. Not my call – just saying – and whatever he wants to do is A-Okay with me.

        3. I believe it’s technically Greg’s site and Jim runs the day-to-day. On one hand, Jim’s friends in the org may be less forthcoming about things if they think the site has crossed some kind of line. On the other hand, it’s ridiculous to expect professional athletes to not get criticized. People may harp on certain things but I didn’t see anything that was over the line.

          1. Jim has no control over what we say therefore others can’t/shouldn’t hold that against him. I must have missed what ever criticism went overboard but for the most part everyone seems to be respectful even when talking a players failures.

  2. This team is legitimately good. Good hitting, good SP and good relief pitching. Imagine how much better if they added Machado in the top of the lineup. Wow. That would be a special lineup. Maybe the best in the NL.

    1. The impressive thing about this team and the line-up is that, from mere maturation, the line-up could get significantly better during the season as younger players improve. I could be wrong, but I expect our hitting to be quite a bit better in, say, August, than it is right now. Hoskins, Kingery, Alfaro, Altherr, Williams, Crawford and Knapp, could all improve and perhaps some will improve substantially.

      The arrival of the pitching has been a huge surprise as has the bullpen. It’s hard to believe that there will be a legitimate surplus of starters soon and that doesn’t include Enyel who might be a legit mid-rotation or better guy (now, that was a smart, smart trade).

      1. The Arrieta signing seems to be the best of the FA SP signings. Best production so far and best contract. Adding him really changes our SP depth. We have two exceptional starters at the top of our rotation, which is really rare and bodes well for a playoff series. Adding an elite bat to our already very good lineup could make this team magical.

        1. So far it seems like a great signing. I’m not sure we are getting the Cy Young Arrieta (his FB sat 94-96 as I recall and touched higher), but we do seem to be getting the guy whose ERA sat around 3 and who pitched tough and with purpose. And I have every reason to believe that he and the pitching coach are some of the reasons the young starters have all made some progress. He’s an important asset to this team.

    2. Yeah this is a really good point. Machado would totally change the dynamic of an already good baseball team.

      1. I would think we would need to trade JP for Machado, which I would do in a second, especially if we plan to offer him top of market price anyway.

        1. I’m really hoping they do make a move for Machado, the sooner the better imo. Wonder what it would cost. Feels like they need to do a quantity vs quality type of move where they trade 3/4/5 prospects/young guys for a top MLB player to free up some space in the farm system and for the next wave of players that need to be added to the 40 man roster.

          1. Cubs rumor mill had them offering ss Addison Russell, LHP Mike Montgomery and RHP number one pitching prospect Adbert Alzolay……….and also throw in Ian Happ.
            But as Theo says ““As a rule, we will not be paying premiums for rentals,’’ Epstein said in an interview on WSCR-AM 670. “We just won’t. It’s hard to build an organization that way.’’
            https://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/manny-machado-deal-would-be-costly-for-cubs-but-worth-the-price-for-a-superstar-512945.html

            1. Hopefully it won’t cost that much as the writer was guessing what he would cost as a rental since he said he wants to test FA. With the way the Braves are hitting and with the Nats coming on, getting Machado would be huge depending on the cost.

            2. I think it would be cool for Phillies’ farm hand Addison Russ to be promoted so he could pitch to Addison Russell. Oddly coincidental names.

  3. Have to give Kapler credit. He’s doing a good job. I like how he is slowly working Seranthony closer and closer to the 9th inning.
    good job going away from Neris yesterday.
    positioning of fielders is weird but seems to work ALOT.
    hope to see Hoskins and kingery pick it up a little.
    they are better than the mets , period. should have swept that series, they were the better team just couldn’t get a big hit

    1. It was a week or so ago but on MLB network they were talking about how the Phillies were the worst team in the majors based on defensive runs saved using the shift (they were actually in negative territory).

      I’m not sure where they were getting their numbers from so I can’t find the source but I’m not sure how well the shifting is working..

      1. I heard that as well but I don’t remember the source. I believe they have a negative hits saved differential while in shifts. If I understood correctly, the shift has caused more hits to be given up than it has hits prevented

        1. other interesting point , if data is available, is effect of shifts on slugging pct. are batters getting more singles into open spaces but changing their batting styles resulting in fewer impact extra base hits.?
          example, more lefties poke singles to left with 2 outs instead of driving the ball for extra base hits due to the shifts

      2. I saw the stats, the Phillies are the worst team when it comes to the shift. As the season goes on, it should normalize to the point where the Phillies are taking away hits with the shift. However, it’s likely that the gap between the Phillies and the #1 team in hits saved will be enormous. The gap is already huge now. I think the Royals have saved something like 25 more hits than the Phillies with their shift.

  4. Shame that comment section is turned off daily. I believe this blog and The Athletic have the smartest and most passionate fans. I saw very few negative comments and the questions and learn from others observations. This is always my second read in morning

      1. If my succession is off Romus pleas help correct me. James-to Matt-to Brad-to Jimmy with maybe a short stint by Greg.

        These fella’s were and are gems in the realm of a select few Phillie’s fans who are by definition weird themselves.

        I strangely am the only one among my friends that could cite how we got players like Arano, Eflin and Pivetta. Even the less obscure Nick Williams or Alfaro they cannot get.

        I can cite signing bonuses and other weird facts to casual Phillies fans I meet in Trenton a few times a year and mostly they pretend to be impressed. I have a colleague that lives in Allentown he texts me often when he is headed to a Pigs game to ask about who he should pay attention too.

        In the grand scheme of the world these are trivial things I know. If it makes me weird than I am proud to wear that cap.

      2. Romus it like three years we now know each other from the site, I Only would say this to you m8. you are too negative. and it is hurting some people. Try tf you can to be more upbeat like me. love you m8

  5. Simply, This is Jim’s site and I am glad we have it. Romus is probably right on point about Jim having to interact with Parents and family members, and regardless, it is his call. I pledged at the beginning of the year to make no negative comments throughout the season about MM, and just hope he does well, and I will continue that approach.

    1. What’s the point in having a blog about prospects if you can’t objectively discuss them? Are we supposed to pretend that MM and Randolph simply aren’t members of the organization b/c we don’t want to discuss production/ progress etc? That to me seems silly and pretty much defeats the purpose of having the site.

    2. Not to mention it really serves no purpose to beat down on a prospect. For one MM didn’t draft himself.

      That said I do think it is fair to shine a light on those responsible for drafting and developing players but the line is a fine one. Critique should never be personal and it should never extend into personal attacks.

    3. I don’t think the issue is with making negative comments in regards to prospects, front-office, etc. based on current events. My primary issue is that every day is a rehash of the same complaints, nothing new added. If the goal is to show up everyday to say that MM, Randolph, and Haseley are busts and the FO should all be fired I don’t see the purpose. It’s not a discussion of Phillies prospects at that point.

      As for the comments, I am in the camp of them being available in the daily threads but will obviously live with the final decision..

      1. I am in agreement.
        A continual daily rehash serves no purpose other than letting people vent once again over uncontrollable things.
        Everyone wants their prospects to prosper at the plate.
        But when a player is struggling…everyone is frustrated…the player, his family, the fans.
        .

  6. to me it makes total sense to leave this section entirely to those who want to comment on the big league club. Jim has provided the other information in the box score recap for the minors. Why do it twice? This is a minor league blog; the best one I know.

  7. Jim site ,Jim call period. Saying that things change in sports daily some times.
    When we comment on 18 and up age players that are sometimes learning on the go . To comment Once or twice in a WK is ok . Doing it every single day is crazy. To say a draft is bad because after a few months is nuts. Actually It takes 4 to 6 yrs.

  8. It’s Jim’s site and although I would prefer comments on a daily basis I will be happy to abide by his decision. I love this site and don’t think Jim is weird at all. Lol

  9. Nola 6 and 1 Arietta 3 and 1so that’s 9wins 2 losses .just from them 2 pitchers .Great to see 2 successful Rhp at the top of the Phillies rotation again.

  10. All,

    I’ve followed the discussion on appropriate vs. inappropriate comments with considerable interest, in part because my entire professional life has been in newspapers, newsletters and publishing research reports.

    Like so many discussions on PhuturePhillies, a lot of spirited and informative debate.

    I would err on the side of more discussion rather than less. However, I also understand that one of the reasons this site is so valuable is because Jim makes sure it is responsible and on point and, baseball is just a game and a past-time, after all, so I’ll side with Jim doing what he thinks is best.

    Having said that, now that we’ve had the discussion and the issues are clear, I’d welcome the return of boxscore commentary.

    1. It think they want to see more than the small sample of this season. He is a good hitter and can play first base and outfield. Maybe they can switch him with Randolph, who needs to rediscover his hitting stroke.

      1. I was thinking at some point in June they would move him up, just with him leading the league in hitting I wondered if maybe they would move sooner and Reading sure could use the help.

        Randolph just stroked a double to RF.

  11. Just weighing in as someone who has run this site like Jim is running it now. Having to moderate the comment section to deal with times people are jerks too each other or say things that are wildly inappropriate is a gigantic mental drain. Even if 99.9% of the comments are civil and at worst, nonsensical, one bad comment can make the whole thing toxic and turn off players families or the hundreds of people who stop by this site are not in the comment section. It is a lot of work to pay attention to and even when it is civil, the negativity can be crushing.

    Jim puts a ton of work in here and on the fields and is not compensated for any of it. Just keep in mind how much of a toll this all can be even if everyone plays nice.

  12. I find this site to be highly enjoyable because of the information that is reported, the informed opinions of many who obviously love the game, and often the humor with which comments are posted. In Jim’s defense, I also find the constant negativity to be a drone, like listening to Charlie Brown’s teacher. Pointed criticism is different from arrogant snoodiness.

    Neither Jim nor any other monitor of any blog can control the wide range of intellects and ignorance which gets their views transmitted through free access. And can anyone really tell someone else to grow up and expect them to comply? So therefore, the man has the prerogative to manage as he sees fit, or simply close shop. And I know I wouldn’t want that.

  13. While it is disheartening to see first round picks “under-perform” to the extent that we might have all dreamed would have been otherwise – it serves no further purpose to beat them up daily as has been mentioned above. It is important to realize that baseball is about “time” needed to develop — with that in mind, can any one of us have realistically predicted that Hoskins would be a budding star ; that the team has developed a virtual army of outstanding LA pitchers who all throw in the high 90’s and they are still coming ; that the Hamels trade would have yielded 2 starters (Williams & Alfaro) and a serviceable starting pitcher – and they are still very young ; that a journeyman pitcher Fausto Carmona or ??? would yield a future star bullpen pitcher and serviceable inflelder ! We can grouse about the picks but I would submit that there are still many players to appreciate for their very growth. Mgmt has done a smart and intuitive purchase of both Santana and Arrieta – at precisely the time the team needed them. There’s alot of gold in them thar hills – and I think there is more to come as this team grows up – whether the first round picks play or not. For all we know, the baseball gods have deemed the Phils will have riches —- but not noteworthy drafts.

  14. Why are daily box score comments turned off, yet the draft discussions have all the same rehashes? Shouldn’t both be turned off if we are avoiding negativity?

    1. I emailed Jim to ask why the comments are turned off. He emailed me back saying there are a few reasons. 1st, the rudeness of some posters and not just the driftovers from Philly.com. 2nd, the constant discussion about the failure of 1st round drafts picks and getting rid of the people who drafted them. Third, Some of the long time readers are often bringing up the weaknesses again and again and again. Jim, actually made it one thing but I broke it out into 3.

      We can’t control the trolls. I and others can point them out but that just shines a brighter light on them. I can feels Jim’s pain because he wants a solid discussion around things going on right now and what a possible future holds. Long time posters can voice their opinion without making all about getting rid of this guy or that guy. Failures happen and guys who are 21 or less are not everything they want to or will be. I remember a few years back, we started having discussions about Hewitt and Larry Greene and how horrible those picks were but we moved on to discuss how other picks were doing. We didn’t use up 50% of the daily discussion area with the failures and should be shot for making the picks. There was definitely some of that but not all the time, every day.

      I miss putting a comment or two in the daily discussion. I liked finding and highlighting or lowlighting certain prospects. I learned long ago that every prospect, whether he be a 1st rounder or a walk on from the Independent Leagues, deserves to be discussed when they do something well or even if things aren’t going so well. Putting on our future’s caps and trying to determine, if a guy doing well in A ball will every play in the show, is fun. We highlight the positives and people who have seen the guy play, weigh in. We all know, or at least should know, that a millions things can happen as they move up. A guy can get better or stagnate at some level.

      1. I respect why jim is doing. I am one of the people who have comment more than once about bad first round choices and bad drafts. so I am most likely one of the people who cause this to happen. I Never realize it was taken personally by jim, so I am sorry for that. and as I said its his site his rules. so I just wont ever comment on a bad draft pick or our gm. leave it to myself.

        1. I Respect what jim is doing sorry. But one other thing I still hope I can comment about romus. Who is really Bill Giles, I don’t know if people knew that or not

      2. Bellman,

        I especially liked your posts and found them interesting and informative. Hopefully, they’ll be back.

  15. Ramon Rosso looking impressive again, 10k’s through 5 innings. If not for the Nieporte error he still have his SO intact but he gave up a double to the next batter after the error. If Rosso keeps this up he’s going to be in Clearwater at some point this year I would think. Will be interesting to see if he does keep it up, where he ends up being ranked among the phillies prospects, if he can crack the top 10 or 15.

  16. As I reflect on how and why this big league club has been successful thus far in 2018, there are 2 things that stand out as root causes – the 2016 Reading Fightin Phils and the 2017 Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs. Yes the minors are more about developing players but there’s a lot to be said about winning TOGETHER.

    1. agree….it is a team sport. Teams that grow together in time will exceed the output of a bunch of hired guns. just my opinion.

  17. What is the point of this site if we cannot comment and discuss?
    Why are the comments disabled from the daily box scores?
    Did Daddy get mad at us?

    1. Yes he did. We should all conform to his expectations. I mean this seriously, if people start criticizing in this space, this too will be disabled soon enough. Bottom line guys, if you have good things to say and can compliment the team and it’s dealings, this is the place. If you feel the opposite way about players or decisions, please keep it to yourself.

      1. Seriously? So you think this site should be a gigantic Scott Palmer-type Phillies P.R. adventure discussing what is good with the Phillies farm system without any discerning eye or comment? If so, let’s make a new minor league site.

        1. C’mon Catch, literally two days before Jim took the comments down he posted a lukewarm report on Rosso’s stuff. He’s been letting us post about the same issue (first round picks) for the last 6 months without doing anything.

          47 of the 78 comments from the last day of box score comments were about first round draft picks. And half of the remaining comments were because Enyel pitched well during a day game that day. So roughly 75% of the box score comments about the previous day were rehashing very stale points about Moniak, Haseley, and Randolph.

          1. This is the participation trophy era, people can’t be allowed to fail and certainly can’t take criticism when they do. l agree with the posters that say comments should be given free reign. If we’re aiming to keep profanity or really bad personal attacks off, then fine. But saying a guy is a flat out let down can be true and I see no good reason to block that type of discussion. Everyone has a choice in terms of what they post and what they read, including the readers who are offended by an “open” discussion when it gets too open for their liking. Oh well. As long as the comments aren’t turned off for the weekly open discussion focused on the major league team (which is actually good again).

          1. Dude – I have a life – nobody who has been on this site for a long time really just wants to post pleasant comments like a Phillies Clubhouse piece – this site was never like that. This site has produced some really interesting discussions and debates over the years – the debates are the interesting thing. If it’s just about “hey, Ranger Suarez had a great start” and we can’t mention critical things – it’s just unfortunate. I appreciate what Jim does quite a bit and I get the broken record problem (believe me I do) – but I don’t agree with that editorial approach to a blog of this nature. But hey, he makes the rules.

            1. Catch,

              I agree. Lively debates bring out lots of viewpoints and sharpen my understanding, plus they’re fun to read. Certainly, your posts are among the best and I don’t recall finding any of them offensive.

              Jim clearly works hard to make this site informative and its discussions respectful. I think we can all be analytical without being disrespectful, or beating dead horses. Hopefully, Jim will give that another chance in the Boxscore Recap.

            1. Yeah agreed. One or two people ruin it for everyone. Saying Mickey Moniak needs to learn to hit lefties or really do anything consistently well at the plate shouldn’t be in the same category as a random and useless “get a life,” though.

  18. I used to look forward to the comments section under the daily box score recap,good and bad.if I didn’t like certain comments I just moved on to the ones that I had an interest in.
    Have to admit,I would check multiple times throughout the day,and now this site seems to have lost it’s “pulse”
    Oh,well maybe I’ll get more work done now..as there’s really nothing new posted on here throughout the day.

    1. Agreed that it’s not my call or place to decide how things are arranged on the site, but eliminating comments from the daily box, to me, definitely limits the relevance and utility of the site because that’s where the hot daily fodder should go and that’s where people go to comment on what just happened.

      1. Catch unfortunately that is the rule. we must go by from now on. I just will post positive things. no matter what I think, if I want to comment on here.

      2. Catch I agree but I’m being realistic here. This is not our site, this is Jim’s site, and he has the authority and power to do what he wants and has. We can either do it his way, or risk losing all capability to interact as a community.

  19. Me thinks there’s some “puttin’ on” going on here. Let’s all refrain from overreacting, put our big boy pants on, and I’m sure things will be fine. Let’s talk baseball.

    1. Agreed 8mark, might just be that Jim is making a point, but having said that, if and when the daily comments section returns, if we don’t all conform to being optimistic and positive in our discussion, it will go away again.

  20. JayFloyd interviewed PC for Reading, Steve Schrenk, recently ….his thoughts on Garcia and Suarez, two of the many he talked about.:
    Edgar Garcia……-Is Edgar Garcia (0.44 ERA in 13 outings) an underrated guy that could start to garner a lot of attention?……….I think he will. He’s been pitching very well out of the bullpen. He’s got a big league slider, pretty good fastball, 91 to 94 and his slider’s probably the pitch for me that’s going to make the difference. It’s a difference maker out there. We’ve been putting him in some different situations and he’s stepped up to every one of them. So, he’s been doing very well. I think he will be a guy that continues the path that he’s on right now.

    Ranger Suarez, ……-How about some thoughts on Ranger Suarez (placed on the DL over the weekend, hamstring…1-2, 4.25 ERA) this year?………..Doing great. You know, holding his own. He had one inning (in his last outing), just that one inning where he needed to make a pitch, but I think was it and they didn’t even hit it hard. But he’ll be fine. He throws strikes. He knows how to pitch. Sneaky velocity. We’ve got to sharpen up his breaking ball a little bit. But, I like what I see.

    1. Romus very good post. your looking well m8/ Keep up the good work. I just love tims post. love love catch post, have a nice day

  21. I’ve always looked forward to reading the comments on the daily box scores update. I don’t comment much myself. But now I have a lot less to look forward to in coming here.

  22. The Phils need to play well these next 2 games before heading into St.Louis which will be a really good test of where we stand. Baltimore is playing poorly so let’s go in take 2 and move on. Time for Rhys to get hot again.

    1. matt13…..the Os have a poor overall record…but their last 10 games they are 5-5, with an explosive offensive output of 17 rubs the other day….so you cannot take them lightly.
      Plus Manny is going to want to put on a good show since he knows the Phillies are one of a dozen teams who may be calling for him in a few months.

      1. Romus, I don’t think Manny taking an 0-for in these 2 games will diminish the Phillies interest. Actually, the other way around works better. Let’s impress him!

  23. 8mark, I agree, let’s show him an exciting young team that he would love to play with next year! What a difference having Machado in the lineup would make. Romus, he his having a terrific start, and I don’t know how many teams are going to be in the $400 Million market for him. The Yankees, maybe, the Dodgers if their year ends poorly, but I don’t know if the Cubs go that high. So, I think the Phils should be one of the less than handful of teams with the best shot.

    1. Matt, agreed. We can assume the Phillies will be among the few clubs who can offer $400M+. SO then it comes down to which of those few will appeal to him, megabucks aside. Remember, this will likely be a 10-12 year deal with buyouts galore. Question: would signing either Manny or Bryce early enough in the off season possibly lure the other big fish?

      1. $400M? What are we talking about, 10 years, $400M? I think the Phillies can pay that, it’s a matter of whether they want to pay that. That’s an insane number.

        1. Trout is right now at $33M AAV….so I assume Harper and Machado start at $34M AAV and work their way up the scale in AAV and years…….so 7yrs@$270M?

          1. I can’t believe I’m saying this but $270M is a more respectable number.

            Anyways, if the Yankees get involved in the bidding for Manny Machado, we’re not going to win that battle.

            And if the Red Sox go after Harper, we’re not outbidding them either.

            1. Fangraphs estimates the market value for MLB contracts is $10M per 1 fWAR. Machado has averaged just over 5 fWAR during his first four full seasons (I excluded 2014, which was shortened by injury). That would make him worth $50M per year under that formula.

              Trout, who averaged 9 fWAR during his first six seasons, should be making $90 million under this formula. (!!!)

              Not saying it’s right or logical … just the formula they came up with.

              https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-recent-history-of-free-agent-pricing/

            2. We will see soon if the owner is a man of his word.
              Santana and Arrieta were good starts…Machado would put the icing on the cake.

            3. Machado, Trout and Harper will all make more than $40 m AAV at some point soon. Trout could easily be the first $50 m player and, oddly enough, if he performs as he has, he would be worth it. In his first almost 7 years he has performed at an historic rate. So far, Mike Trout has been as good as Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams (doesn’t hit as well but is a much better fielder), Lou Gehrig and Barry Bonds. He’s played like an immortal.

            4. And, by the way, these will all be 10-12 contracts with one or two opt out periods. The players will hold all the leverage. And they will basically get what they want – at least the elite ones like Trout and Machado and Harper will.

            5. Trout will be 30 years old as a FA.
              So you are assuming he will he get $50MAAV….then it comes dow to the length…..10yr/$500M contract?

          2. Manny Machado will be playing for the Phillies in 2019 and it will cost a lot more than 270 million dollars. 10 yrs @ 390 million with opt outs after years five and seven seems more likely.

            1. Hinkie…..7yrs at @$270M is the practically the same as 10yrs@$390M…I do not see Machado staying put for the full 10 years.

            2. First, I don’t see the Phillies offering $390M. And if there’s a team who’s going to offer $400M, it’ll be the Yankees..

            3. Yes, but the three extra guaranteed years insures Manny against some sort of career altering injury or a quick decline in performance. Also, the opt outs are not only good for Machado, but could benefit the Phillies if they draft a 3Bman (Alec Bohm?) over the next couple of years who turn out to be a stud. They could let MM walk, pick up a compensation draft pick (assuming MM is dealt this summer), move in the younger/cheaper 3Bman, and reallocate Machado’s money to a different superstar (Mike Trout !!!).

            4. Just like the Yankees were going to sign Shohei Otani ?
              I’m telling you again … it is probable Manny Machado will be playing for the Phillies next season. MacKlentak have had this plan in place for two years now. If you served MM some truth serum, he would admit he sees himself as a Phuture Phillie !

            5. Hinkie, you’re asking me about Shohei Ohtani? My point was that he wasn’t coming to Philadephia and I did give valid points about the Yankees. But the fact of the matter is, Ohtani is not wearing a Phillies uniform.

              Do I think the odds of the Phillies getting Machado is better than Ohtani? Yes. But if somebody is going to sign Machado to a $400M contract, I don’t think it’s going to be the Phillies.

            6. Whether Machado winds up with the Yankees or Phillies, it won’t be because the Phillies won’t pay the $400M. There is no team in MLB with so much wiggle room in the till than the Phillies. The Yankees would have to shuck and jive around the luxury tax issue first.

            7. 8mark … when I watch the game tonight (and tomorrow), I’ll be envisioning Manny Machado in a Phillies’ uniform. I was planning to get to Clearwater for next spring to get the first glimpse of him as a Phillie, but my wife informed me last week that she has booked us on a cruise for March 😦

            8. Hinkie…there is always that possibility, Manny could also be in a Phillies uniform in two months.
              I just cannot see the Os letting him walk for just a 30somethng pick next year.

            9. I’m with HInkie – Machado will be in Philly!!1 Ohtani is a different case, for immigrants culture and comfort zone is a big thing. $390-$400/10-years

  24. Jayson Stark pointed out that over the last 10 years, the ball is put in play 10,000(!) less times in the course of a MLB season. Even John Schuerholz of the Braves finds that to be highly alarming. I know the game has changed as it always does in time, but that is incredibly troubling. K, BB, HR. That’s pretty much it.

      1. Actually it doesn’t seem that significant when you consider there are 650-700,000 pitches thrown each season.. Conservative estimate.

    1. 8mark….one of the most famous baseball quotes ever came from Hall of Fame slugger Ralph Kiner who stated in the 1950s: “Singles hitters drive Fords and home run hitters drive Cadillacs.”

          1. Play the video, then scroll the cursor over where it says YouTube in the bottom right corner. That will take you to the YouTube link.

    2. There are roughly 2,400 games played in a season. That means there were four more balls in play per game a decade ago. It makes sense: there were more than 1.5 more K/9 in 2017 than in 2007. There were also 24 percent more HR. BB rates look to be fairly consistent at both points.

      Personally, I don’t think it makes the games any less watchable.

  25. This is exactly why the comments have been shut down. What many on here do not understand – because they re not professional scouts or even in development of professional players, is that the line at the end of the game does not tell you everything about each AB a player had. You have no idea what the player and the hitting instructor are working on. You have no idea what the feedback from the coaches after each AB is. You are not there watching each pitch and each AB – all you care about is BA or that they were 0-4.

    1. That’s ridiculous. 85% of the posters here are not just looking at whether a guy goes 0-4 and know that there is a process and sometimes guys who look they are struggling are actually working on something specific (this is especially true for pitchers). We are also keen to try to find out about somebody’s tools and whether they are likely to improve or tap out at higher levels. And we’re also cognizant both of a prospect’s age and of his metrics. Even at lower levels, the statistics matter significantly from a fairly early point in time. Are predictive statistics always right? No, of course not, but they often are and they mean something. Don’t assume that people here aren’t following the nuances – most of us are.

    2. if I wasn’t trying to be nice. I Would tell you have stupid your comment was. but I am not being mean anymore.

    3. Ok can we speak to MM’s 21.36% K rate? Which has spiked to 25.93% in 2018? Or his .098 ISO which has cratered in 2018 to .038? Can we speak to the FIVE extra base hits he’s posted in 2018?

      Is this simply looking at an individual 0-4 evening or is this large enough sample size for you? How bout referencing scouts who say he’s “lost” or displays a “below average hit tool” which is what got him drafted 1.1 in the first place?

      Is there something positive we can take from his 2+ years in MILB and if so would you mind sharing it with the rest of us Walt??

      1. Micky Mo is only player in the Phillies sys . Not only can most people see but know it .
        Why they can read for themselves or come on this site and read about it several times a week.
        Micky Mo and Haseley are on Clearwater which Jim covers and See’s the games which most of us don’t.Jim also gets to know the players and there families.
        Any of us could look up stats and we do.
        It was getting pretty bad about 3 players instead of the hole sys .

        1. When those three players are all top 10 picks – one of which was 1.1 – and the first two are abject failures to date with the 3rd not showing any of the skills that got him drafted less than a year ago, its not out of line to be concerned about organization talent. Especially with the draft upcoming and the team holding the 1.3 selection.

          The fact that this needs to be explained to you is pretty remarkable honestry.

          1. I did know but I also know that they pick other baseball players too . In 2015 ,2016 2017 Kingery , Irvin , Jojo, D Hall, Howard, Kyle Young, Seabold ,Listi etc . I do know it takes 4 or 5 players to make a draft .
            Even if all 3 make it there might be no room at the major league level . No many CF beat Herrera . C not as good as Hoskins right now . Haseley might have a shot . Still the Phillies are in a playoff spot and have a good team .
            Org that don’t have talent dont have there patient team over 500 and in a playoff spot.
            The Phillies also have several prospects in the top 100.
            The sys in raked in the top 10 on Monday my most sites without the 3 players you have an opening
            Obsession with.

            1. If all 3 made it then they’d have a glut of talent and would be able to trade for pieces they don’t currently have.

              Obsession with? Dude you need to get a clue pretty quick.

  26. Unofficial but MLBTR reports that Cano faces an 80-game PED suspension. That would put a crimp in Seattle’s playoff hopes.

      1. Klentak and DiPoto are buds, well use to be who knows now,… but .Klentak use to work for him in LA.
        Jerry Dipoto is known as the new ‘trader’ in baseball.
        So there could be an alignment between them.

        1. It’s highly unlikely they match up on anything. The M’s aren’t going to surrender a whole lot for a player who will have no role with the club beyond this year (Cano owed another 5/$121M after this year!). And they don’t have any top 100 prospects in their system (Kyle Lewis is maybe borderline).

          1. Cesar is a hard player to find what his return value is in a straight up one-on-one swap.
            Phillies I assume will not be looking for any more MLB now or soon to be ready position players
            So I guess it may be pitching.

          2. You may be right but Cano could transition to the veteran DH role that so many star players do like retirees heading to Florida.

        1. LOL I love Cesar. I’m glad Klentak didn’t deal him for peanuts, and would not like him to be traded unless it’s an eye popping ransom in return. But something’s going to have to give at some point, even if it’s not this year …

      2. omg mike pls I am trying to be nice. You think that babe ruth kingery is better than him still. Romus help me.

        1. I don’t believe Kingery is better than Hernandez at this point. I do recognize that they are both long-term third basemen, and Kingery has a good chance of eventually being as good as Hernandez. He also has a very good contract. Unless he completely tanks, Kingery is going to get the job at some point. (Let’s not forget that Cesar was below replacement level in limited play his first two years. It takes time.)

          I do not want CeHe to be traded, and do not think he will be (see above), but it would be silly for Klentak not to do his due diligence here.

    1. I doubt it’s about his stuff. I saw him pitch and the stuff is excellent. I’m sure it’s mostly about command and whether he has developed the requisite number of breaking pitches.

    2. It’s only a matter of time before he gets moved to the bullpen. He’s just walking way too many guys.

  27. Leiter is officially back with the team…

    Odd lineup. Valentin in left and Hoskins DH, Williams in right, altherr on bench

    1. Valentin may be the most overlooked prospect in the entire system. I think one way or another he’s going to be a solid or better major league player. I think he has a legitimate shot, over time, to develop into a first division regular and if they trade Cesar I feel a lot better with them taking a chance on Kingery knowing that Valentin is around if that doesn’t work.

      1. catch I never saw Valentin play. I Believe me and romus talked about him last year. Would love to have someone who saw him tell us about him.

        1. Valentin is a bit of a hidden gem. He’s a slick fielder, has decent plate discipline and way more power than one would expect. He’s a guy who could be included as a second or third player in a trade and end up being the best guy in the deal. I like him a lot and he’s still very young. Like I said, his presence makes me feel a lot better about the possibility of losing Cesar in a trade. He’s that good.

      2. @catch -in our numerous trade Cesar discussions before, I’m not sure if’ you remember that the depth in the INF (Kingery, Valentin, Gamboa, Brito, Guzman, Gonzalez, etc) is one of the reasons why the Phils can afford to cash in from Cesar. I believe that one of these MI will come around and make it, That together with Kingery’s potential, ability to sign FAs are the reasons why I’m really sold on moving from Cesar.

      1. He’s been on the roster for like 2 weeks – since JP went down with his injury.

        He hasn’t played much because they are trying to win now – which does not entirely seem to be a crazy idea. That said, he’s good and they should play him.

  28. It’s funny the Phillies are in 2 nd place and are a pretty good team . There in the playoffs as of right now. When was the last time you could say that.

    1. ESPN had an article about the 10 best teams in the baseball and their flaws/problems. The Phillies were one of those teams – I am so not used to this.
      FYI – the biggest flaw they could find was Neris – but what they didn’t seem to acknowledge quite is that he may only be the 5th or 6th best arm in the current pen. I said before he was promoted that Seranthony would be the closer by July – I stick with that statement.

  29. Catch, that article also said that the RF numbers are really bad, but they thought Altherr would come around. I found that pretty interesting.

    1. I think they were just stating the obvious – both Williams and Altherr have not had good starts. I agree with them, however, that this is likely to get a lot better over the next few months.

      1. catch, I meant the part of Altherr coming around. I think there is an equal chance that Williams can be the better offensive player, although AA is much better defensively.

    1. Of course he is – Quinn is forever on the DL. I feel bad about the guy, but you can’t in any way plan a future with this player. Until he plays two consecutive injury-free seasons he’s just going to be one of those guys. It’s not a coincidence he’s been hurt for the substantial portion of his career. I’m going to start call him Job.

    2. Yea, Quinn is an unfortunate situation. He has game changing speed and overall talent but is a non-factor in the system because of his injury history.

  30. Huge night for Randolph, Haseley, and Moniak. Glad to see all three turning things around and heading in the right direction. Maybe a 2020 lineup looks like:
    1 Moniak CF
    2 Kingery 2B
    3 Haseley RF
    4 Machado 3B
    5 Randolph LF
    6 Hoskins 1B
    7 JPC SS
    8 Alfaro C
    9 Nola P

    1. Right now there looks to be zero shot of Moniak every making it. He’ll be lucky to make it to AAA at this rate. Same with Randolph. Depressing really.

      1. Randolph is hitting .293 in May with 7 BB and 6 K’s. Micky Mo is hitting .248 in his last 30 days .260 in May .298 against Haseley hitting .266 in the last month. He’s hitting .294 against LhP .

    2. 2020 is supposed to be the year the Phils are contending. With C, MickeyMo and Haseley as the OFs, they are probably tanking.

      If Doobie is not longer around (or trade), either Mike Trout, a veteran or Kingery is manning the CF in 2020 and hope that Jhailyn developed positively so an OF of LF Haseley, CF Kingery and RF Ortiz is better .

      1. LOL – why on earth would they trade Odubel? He is likely to be the best bargain in baseball over the next 5 years. Right now, Odubel is front and center in any 5 year plan. You don’t usually get mid-career cost-controlled players like Odubel – he’s one guy you keep. As for MMo and Haseley – we’re not even sure they are going to be big league players, let alone first division regulars. I don’t know what they will do but you can’t slot them in anywhere at this point – they are like 4 steps away from that.

    3. Odubel Herrera (the best hitter on the Phillies) is under contract through 2023. I doubt anyone not named Mike Trout holds that job in 2020.

      I can’t fathom how Hoskins hits sixth in that lineup. It’s like bringing LeBron off the bench.

      1. I’m pretty sure it’s satirical based on the comments section being shut down for a few days due to negativity.

  31. Just wondering. Machado will be traded by the deadline. Will the Phillies do the deal, or wait until winter? By dealing now, the Phillies postseason odds will skyrocket, and by waiting for winter, he will only cost the Phillies money. Personally, I’m for doing the deal right now. What do we have to offer? Franco has quietly had a very decent year. He leads the team in Hr’s, RBI’s, and has only struck out 19 times (lowest amount of any regular). I don’t know what Baltimore needs because I haven’t seen them, but a package of Franco, Altherr or Williams, Hernandez, Leibrandt or Lively should at least get the conversation started.

    1. Baltimore would be crazy not to insist on JP Crawford for Machado.

      I think giving up good big league players is a fine idea, but the Orioles probably aren’t looking for guys like Franco and Hernandez who are already into their arb years. They’ll want prospects in a rebuild, and if I’m Dan Duquette, I’m asking for Crawford and at least one of Kingery or Sanchez in any negotiation.

      1. I would substitute Crawford for Franco in a heartbeat, and maybe De Los Santos for Lively, or Leibrandt.

      2. The only way I agree to include a top prospect/MLB ready player for a rental Manny is if I’m iron clad certain he’s re-signing in the off season. And that’s if I’m definitely in the playoff race.

        1. Right. I’m not saying Klentak will do it, but Duquette is going to want high ceiling prospects, not regulars whose deals will be up just when the team emerges from its rebuild.

      3. I’d drive Crawford to Baltimore myself. Putting Machado in our line up has to make us favorites to at least make the post season.

        Hernandez
        Machado
        Herrera
        Hoskins
        Santana
        Franco
        Altherr
        Alfaro

        with the same bench we have now (maybe an update at catcher could be pursued as a rental?) is solid.

        1. I’m sure Klentak would as well, as long as they’re making the ride in a coupe. The problem, of course, is that Baltimore would insist on more prospects sitting in the backseat.

    2. The conversation does get started, and when the laughing dies down, the Orioles will ask for a serious offer. You have to give talent to get talent. It starts with Sixto and you go from there. The package of players you mentioned, most teams have players like that i.e borderline fringy starters.

      1. Agree Guru…Sixto and JPC gets you Machado…….but unless Dan D. gives the Phillies a 72 hour window to negotiate with Lozano/Machado for a LTC….no deal for me. They refused to do that window in December….but now they stand to get nothing in return for Machado as a FA….oh maybe a 32nd pick in 2019
        So they may change their tune

        1. They will almost certainly trade him – they would be crazy not to do that.

          The Phillies may acquire him, but they will pay a lot less if it’s not also accompanied by an extension (and, frankly, I don’t see him agreeing to that). I think Sanchez will not be traded for any player who might only be a rental.

      2. I wouldn’t give up Sixto but what about if the phils use their wallet to take on a bad contract that the O’s would like to get out of. Perhaps that could bring the cost down a good bit and it’s not like the phils couldn’t take on a bad contract if need be.

            1. No save for Neris. Not for one out. I like Gabe but he overmanaged there. Trying to soothe Hector’s angst maybe?

            2. Guys – he was trying to keep Hector’s confidence up – it wasn’t a bad thing at all. I thought it was pretty smart. He doesn’t want him checking out.

  32. ESPN (Jeff Sullivan) ranks the Phillies as the 17th best offense: http://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/23516375/ranking-mlb-lineups-unseated-astros-no-1

    “17. Philadelphia Phillies: I’m a believer in what the Phillies have going on. They’re headed in the right direction, and they’re a real wild-card threat this season. But offensively speaking, there’s some frustration. I’m not worried about Carlos Santana; he should be fine. But we’ve already seen growing pains from Scott Kingery, J.P. Crawford, Nick Williams and Jorge Alfaro. If it’s true that Maikel Franco now has a swing and approach that work for him, that’s tremendous. This offense just doesn’t look complete yet.”

    The Phillies are also #9 on ESPN’s power rankings.

    1. Getting a little worried about Hoskins K’s lately, not sure how many he’s had in the past 2 weeks or so but he seems to be struggling at the plate.

      1. He’s try to adjust to the adjustments and he’s in a slump. I have a lot of confidence in his long-term abilities.

        1. Agreed. I’m still all in on him – he’s just slightly off now. It happens, especially during a player’s second year where the league gets a book on a hitter.

  33. By the way, as we gaze upon him, Nick Pivetta is improving and learning how to dominate. His breaking pitches are not only killer, he now throws them for strikes. And his FB has always been near plus. This rotation is truly becoming formidable.

    1. Eickhoff may be relegated to the bullpen if Nicky, VV, and Zach continue as they have. Or would he be a viable and valuable trade piece?

      1. I think if you trade Eickhoff, they would be best off trading for guys in the lower minors who they think could provide them with value down the road. That or an experienced if slightly expensive corner outfielder with an expiring contract.

  34. Nice outing for Pivetta. The SP has been a huge positive. On Machado. I don’t think that trading for him at the deadline increases our chances of signing him in FA, even a little bit. He is going to go see how it plays out, and whoever thinks the number is not going to be closer to $400M than $200M is guessing wrong. I don’t trade Kingery and Sixto for him at all. I don’t trade either of those guys, period. And, I don’t make a deadline trade that makes the team less attractive to Manny to come play with us next year. So, unless they unload him to dump Davis’ contract, or a similar bad contract, I don’t think we get him before the off season.

  35. agreed, I assume whoever trades for him will still have to bid on him in free agency. The good news is that the phils have the money if they are willing to spend like the owner says he wants to. I also agree, no way do I give up Sixto or Kingery for a possible rental. That’s why I would consider taking on a bad contract or two if need be to get him. I really hope they can make a bold move and get him though, would be so huge to have him in the lineup especially if the pitching continues to do as well as it has.

    1. Lets see what the June test brings…..if they can get thru 14-13 then I will agree a 90 win season is very doable.

  36. Romus 90 wins. I better lose weight, running naked and being fat, is not attractive, Pivetta has the stuff we saw this last year, if you remember I love this kids stuff. hope he is putting it together, I still think he has a chance to be as good as nola. I know that’s crazy to some. but love this kids stuff

    1. Roccom – you and I were on the Pivetta bandwagon when his ERA was 6!

      Look, good stuff is good stuff – you could see what he was capable of and had many starts last year where he dominated.

      I think the addition of Arietta and the new pitching coach have made a huge difference on this stuff. The young guys have all taken a big step forward. I love what I’m seeing.

        1. No thanks. Although Mike Trout’s the greatest baseball player maybe in our lifetimes, one player doesn’t make a team (as it can in football with a quarterback)and ultimately, you need a bunch of good players and you need them to be cost controlled. Those three players are highly cost controlled and cheap and they all range from being good to darn near great (Odubel has been great the first 1/4 of the season). Why trade those assets to get Mike Trout when you can sign a guy and get 90% of the productivity of a Mike Trout (Manny Machado for instance) for cash alone? To me, it makes no sense.

          1. Whoa! Catch, I get your reasoning, but trading those three guys for Mike Trout would be grand larceny. Trout has been worth nearly two Manny Machados in most seasons. He is the best player in MLB since Barry Bonds.

            That said, the Angles would laugh at such an offer. I think Romus knew that to be the case when he suggested it.

            1. No, I’m serious, I wouldn’t do that trade. First, he’s not twice as good as Manny Machado or Bryce Harper – he’s maybe 1.3 times as good and you’ll be paying him roughly what Trout gets paid. Second, you’re going to be losing about 12-17 very cheap WAR a season if you plug those guys into a deal – what ever incremental benefit you’ll get by having Trout will be outweighed by no longer having those other guys and you need to understand that Odubel is now one of the great bargains in baseball. No, right now, for a team that’s building and nearly ready to contend, for the long haul, I wouldn’t make that trade.

            2. I get that Doobie is a bargain (I’m hoping Kingery develops into another one). But Trout gets you 9 fWAR per season by himself! He’s a major upgrade over Herrera, even if Herrera has turned himself into an All-Star caliber CF. They’d have Kingery to fill in at 2B and still have Nola and Arrieta at the top of the rotation, with Velasquez, Eflin and Eickhoff rounding out the rotation.

              Crawford
              Kingery
              Trout
              Hoskins
              Santana
              Franco
              Williams/Altherr
              Alfaro

              That’s a contending lineup.

            3. Among other things – Kingery’s not there yet and you’d lose Pivetta from the rotation – someone you currently desperately need.

            4. I guess we have to just agree to disagree here. You’re right that Kingery isn’t there, and there’s a chance he may never be, but I’ll tell you this: He’s not going to see a ton of balls out of the zone with the best hitter in baseball protecting him.

              Losing Pivetta, a good young starter, would hurt, but not enough to turn down a deal for the 21st Century Mickey Mantle.

  37. First time for anything.
    In the 9th today….never saw a manager do that with a three run lead.
    Mixed about it…understand the Neris confidence boost

        1. I have not been a Kapler fan, but allowing Neris to get the final out in a relatively safe situation is probably a good psychological move. There wasn’t much at risk with two outs and the bases empty. But the message to Neris might have been worth a lot, especially if he still has the killer splitter, though some suggest he doesn’t.

          1. It was a strange move, but a good one. If the Phillies want to make some noise in the playoffs, we need Neris to be good.

            1. The Guru anyone who thinks that was a good move to take out a guy who in a three run game. just got two outs with 6 pitches. imo know nothing about this game. sorry that was the dumbest t move I ever saw. almost as stupid as brett brown letting a team score 16 straight points without calling a time out. dumb move by a dumb Sheldon clone manager. sorry romus I had to get it off my chest

            2. rocco….two days, that’s it , two days…..that is how long you lasted on the positive vibes! 🙂
              Well you tried.

            3. I agree with you – the baseball orthodoxy (there’s a lot of unfounded or truly stupid baseball orthodoxy) that you must have a closer start and finish an inning is silly. With two outs in the ninth and the team ahead 3 runs, there was plenty of time to pull Neris if it didn’t work out. I liked the move – it was a low risk move to build his confidence and they thought the match up was better. Makes sense to me.

  38. Garcia deserves a Save for his job in the 8th. They need to re- vamp the Save rules. Garcia actually “saved” the game.

    1. I just looked up the 2012 draft to see who the Red Sox took with that pick. It was Brian Johnson … he’s a big leaguer, but he isn’t blowing anyone’s doors off.

      My research served as a cruel reminder that the Phils took Shane Watson a pick before Lance McCullers.

  39. Good job by Pivetta but here’s the caveat, the Orioles are a terrible team who’s on pace to lose 100+ games. If Pivetta can do this against the Braves in his next start, I would really be impressed.

  40. The Guru this isn’t about the team he pitched against. For two years me and catch have said its his stuff. If he ever gets it together he has the arm of at least a two, or more. This kid has really good stuff. I could care less who he beat. so if he beats the braves he is great??? Its him believing in his stuff that is important

    1. rocco…his last 15 starts from Sep1 , 2017…..10 plus to plus-plus games…..2 a little below average of the 50 marker….and three monumental clunkers.
      That ain’t chicken liver.

      1. The FB has always been there but the stupid prior pitching coaches, using antiquated baseball “knowledge” always made sure he pitched down in the zone and they did the same thing to Velasquez and Eflin. This was moronic. True power pitchers like these guys live with their FBs up in the zone and change eye level with breaking stuff down in the zone. Do you think Tom Seaver or Roger Clemens or Randy Johnson liked to throw all of their FBs at the knees? Of course not!!!

        But Pivetta was inconsistent with his breaking stuff which he has now both improved in quality and command. But when he’s inconsistent with the breaking stuff or can’t locate his FB, sure, he’s going to get hit. But he’s going in the right direction.

        1. Catch before this year, that was why I wasn’t high as a lot on nola. He didn’t throw as hard as now. and when you are throwing 90 to 92 at best like he was. he had to be perfect with his breaking ball and when he wasn’t he got hit. My point and yours I believe is Pivetta has really good stuff. and a great arm. But that alone doesn’t make him a pitcher. To nit pick that you cant count wins against bad teams is dumb, imo sorry romus.

          1. I’m a velocity guy too but Nola is a huge outlier. He has multiple ridiculous breaking pitches, he throws with almost perfect command and he’s not a soft tosser – he can hit 94-96 when he needs to. He’s a flat out stud.

    2. All Guru trying to say let’s see if PV can get though a better team lineup. The O’s line up isn’t that bad.however it’s filled with alot of High stikeout ,high HR players.
      When PV went up against the Nats lineup he couldn’t get out of the 1st ing.

      Pivetta had faced Braves line up 3 times .
      May 30 th 4 ings 5 h 3 r 3 ER 2 bb 3 k’s.
      April 17 th 5 ings 1 h 1r 1er 0 bb 2 k’s.
      April 28 th 5 ings 6 h 4 ER 3 bb 6 K’s.

      2. Yes you do want Pivetta to do better against The Braves there in the Phillies division.balt isn’t even in the same league.

      1. Tim…the second Braves game at 55 was above average. The other two,along with the Nats game, were below.
        Pirates, and Giants had good and some veteran bats and he did pitch well against those teams and they are playing good ball this year.
        I will ice you Cinncy, the Os and Miami were he was outstanding but they are weaker hitting teams right now.

        1. The one thing that stands out with Pivetta.
          1. If he doesn’t walk 2 or more in outing he’s really good . If he does he’s really bad.
          He needs to work on getting to 7 ings.

          1. Tim…outside Nola…he has the lowest BB/9 on the staff @2.2/9…..K/9, outside Vinny, @ 10.4 per 9 and his FIP @3.1 is tied for 18th in the entire majors.

    3. The reason why Aaron Nola is so good is that he’s able to compete against any lineup. Pivetta has the talent, but results is all that matters. If he throws 95 and has a 6 ERA at the end of the season, that’s not good.

      And the Orioles lineup is pretty bad. They have 3 players with OPS+ > 100. The Braves? 8!

      1. Well of course if he finishes with an ERA of 6 it isn’t good – who said it was?

        And by the way, just because he isn’t as good as Nola (very few are) doesn’t mean he isn’t really good thus far – he has been.

        1. Pivetta has been just ok. He’s averaging just over 5 innings a start, which also means he only has 3 quality starts. His 3 worst starts are due to the Braves (twice) and the Nats. His 2 best starts are due to the Orioles and the Reds.

          So he’s beating up on the bad teams and having issues against the good teams. I guess that’s better than last season when he was poor against a lot of teams.

          1. His average Game Score over the 9 starts is 54….which is a little above average but with five games at 60 or above.
            I see three bad games of the nine.
            He is ranked 18th in all majors with a FIP of 3.1

          2. He’s a young pitcher learning how to pitch again big league hitters. Maybe Phillies fans have been spoiled by having a rotation full of finished products with Halladay, Lee, Oswalt, etc. that they’ve forgotten how those guys got to that point.

            I remember when the knock on Max Schertzer was that he was only a 5-inning pitcher or when Cliff Lee ended up back in the minors. guys who come into the league and immediate dominate are rare…

  41. We have been very pleased with the SP so far, so I think the Pitching Coaches deserve a good deal of credit. Pivetta’s stuff was terrific yesterday irregardless of the team he was playing. They may be down on their luck, but the Orioles still have some good hitters, most notably the guy we are all hoping comes here.

    1. I think the pitching coach and Arietta have changed the environment completely. When 4 guys (other than Jake) suddenly get better at the same time, I give credit to the pitching coach. Kranitz is the man!!

  42. Tonight..Cardinals..lets go Vinny!
    Lifetime Cardinals vs Phillies…well 1900 on…Cardinals 1130 wins- Phillies 855 wins.
    Only three winning decades for the Phillies over the Red Birds….1900s, 1910s and 1970s.
    Some may say they have had the Phillies’ number…time to turn that around 🙂

  43. If Cole Hamels continues to pitch well, is he a trade target? And if so, would you trade Velasquez for him since Hamels would theoretically be replacing a current member of the rotation…??? Even if you trade Eickhoff instead (and I would prefer to) what then happens with Vinny? An injury to the staff is always possible but….

      1. Vinny for Hamels?
        Phillies also take on his remaining contract.
        I would think a young Vinny and the contract, would also bring back Hamels plus a prospect in their system…maybe 10 thru 15 in their farm rankings.

        1. Really? I hope you’re right. I think it would take Vinny and a like a 10-20 prospect from the Phillies. But maybe I’m misreading the market.

          1. Yeah.
            Based on the Ranger’s immediate future projections…Hamels is probably only with them for a few more months, once they are considered out of any mathematical WC contention.
            So the price may be higher for him with what he can give a contender down the stretch.
            Perhaps Vinny alone will not do it.

            1. I think once the contenders get desperate, the price for him is going to go way up. His one year option also adds not an insignificant amount of value.

    1. He’s a lefty starter (of which we have none), he’s still really good, has quite a bit left in the tank, he’s a hometown hero, and if he gets here he’ll hit the ground running and never look back. He belongs here – we all know it – and so does he.

  44. AJ Happ is 35 but threw one nice game last night. Btw Colon 7 ing shout-out .
    Hamels should be one Sp one rp. There’s many choices in AAA or major league .

  45. This website needs someone else to try to run the day-to-day. Jim is done with the nonsense and we need this site as fans.

    I just won’t vote for the Romus/Roccum duo

  46. Bob Brookover in today’s philly.com suggests the Phillies trade Crawford, Kingery and a top minor league arm for Machado. Seems to think the strong link to the front office is enough to counter the risk of not having an extension right away.

    I think Hoskins should sit a couple days and Kingery be sent down for a couple weeks (probably when Crawford returns). Batman and Robin have looked more like the Riddle(r) and the Joke(r) lately. I’m not worried about either. Just think now would be a good time to let them see the game from a different vantage point.

    1. 8mark….what I have been saying for awhile now…MacPhail/Lozano go back 8 years ago when it all started with Machado.
      Though I’d prefer to keep Kingery in any exchange.
      Teams had asked Duquette for a 72 hour window in Dec, he refused…..but I would still do the same and try to work a deal.
      If no deal…then no trade…and just wait for the off season free agency period to start.

      1. I would give them Crawford and VV and a minor league arm like falter, that’s it. no more than that for Machado. I Only would do it cause I think we have plenty of people to replace those three.

        1. That’s a package that I could almost live with. But, damn, if Machado signs with the Yankees or someone else – it’s going to be brutal as they won’t even get the bare amount of FA signing consideration the Orioles would have received. Nothing. That would be an expensive rental and it could sting for years.

      2. Romus you and me are so nice and they wont vote for you as new president. I cant believe that, shame on them

      3. I hate to be the guy who continually throws cold water on those early long term contract extensions with Manny Machado. It’s just not going to happen. Machado has gone five and a half years w/o signing a LTC. There’s no way he’s giving up free agency when he’s only 5 months away.

        1. Still will come down to money.
          If his agent tells him that is the best he will possibly see….then why would he refuse.
          Apparently, the Os did not offer him what he was seeking.

          1. It does come down to money. The player will make more of it, if he’s negotiating with multiple teams instead of one.

            1. That does not always apply…this past off-season it did not.
              Plus with Harper out there also….he is not now the biggest fish in the sea.
              If Harper re-signs with the Nats, then Ican see Machado maybe going ahead and testing the market….but his asking price will still be around the same figure as what Harper received on a re-signing with the Nats.
              His agent already knows what the market will bear for him.

            2. I tend to side with Hinkie here. What we don’t know for certain is how strong the good will ties to the Phillies front office is. Another thing to consider is that the players union would frown big time on a wink-wink deal should there be any signs of “under the table” talks between Manny’s camp and the Phillies brass. Nothing would surprise me BUT I would have to assume everyone is playing by the rules until we’ve reason to think otherwise.

            3. 8mark…it is Baltimore’s decision.
              The union can complain all they want.
              If the Os let a specific team or teams, have negotiation discussions prior to any trade , then I cann see where the union can prevent that.
              Teams are not allowed to tamper without the O’s approval…so it is their right to make that decision.
              It was that way in the winter meetings , and the Baltimore org decided against doing that.

            4. Romus, it’s the O’s decision to allow extension talks. It’s Manny’s call as to whether he actually will. Huge difference.

            5. To be sure: early extension …
              * great for the Orioles because it ups their return.
              * bad for MM because it limits his market, which in turn stifles his compensation.

              Also … comparing last winter’s FA class to the upcoming FA class is basically comparing apples to oranges. One of the reasons the market was dry for the last class was because teams were preparing for the upcoming class. All the major players (except for the BoSox) have now reset their luxury tax penalties. Any one of these teams could offer a 400 million (or more) dollar deal to Harper or Machado. Once multiple clubs begin bidding, there’s no telling how much Harper and Machado will end up with.
              Again … there is no way Manny Machado (or Bryce Harper) is signing an in-season extension at this point.

    2. IF Machado agreed to an extension as part of the deal, I’d do something like this, so long as the “top minor league arm” isn’t Sixto Sanchez. Say, Crawford/Kingery/De Los Santos or Kilome.

      There’s a chance Crawford and Kingery hit their ceilings and become Rollins/Utley, and that would suck. However: Machado is 25 years old, hits like a corner outfielder and does things like this defensively:

      1. When the Os open up the trade talks, the Phillies will need to put a competitive package together.
        Cubs will be in the running for sure, and also the Dodgers
        Fortunately, a team like the Yankees with their abundance of premium prospects may not be in the running in July, since senior Angelos indicated no dealing with the Yankees.
        Cannot see Duquette, not asking for Sixto.
        Not sure Kilome/De Los Santos will be attractive enough for him.
        Maybe Medina would be ilo of Sixto.

        1. If it came to including Medina, I might budge. (He should be attractive — McDaniel recently compared him to Casey Mize). I’m not giving up Sixto though, particularly if I’m also surrendering Kingery and that contract, which has the potential to be a Rent Control in Manhattan type deal if he comes close to his potential.

        2. Romus how do the cubs afford him they have 5 I believe core players in arb. plus 135 or 40 committed already.

          1. Lester’s contract does drop some…..but still will be hard working Machado in the mix with also a recent Darvish contract now on the books.

  47. I heard The Cubs are pushing hard for Machado. The Phillies are now winning which could be a different maker.

    1. The cubs have 140 million committed, without paying Bryant, Addison, Rizzo. Hendricks. how do they afford him.

        1. 135 million committed next year and have to pay Bryant, Russell baez just to name a few. so guru add 40 million to the 135 that’s 175 and they have all those arb guys, maybe they can do magic,

          1. There’s no magic. I fully expect their payroll in the 200-220 range. Nobody is going to take Darvish or Heyward off their hands. They could try to trade Lester, Rizzo, or Zobrist.

            1. Good luck moving Lester…..his contact goes thru 2021 for $72M more ….and his age will be going against him being 37 at the end of it.

        1. If cubs give up happ and Addison without a extension. then Baltimore should do the deal. but there are so many guys with rumors trying to get notice. It crazy how much they throw at the wall to see it something sticks.

  48. The idea of throwing so many young high ceiling, cost-controlled players into a trade for a guy you can get with money alone 7 months from now is making me sick. Fortunately, I think the Phillies are very careful about their assets – which they should be. I think the team could get almost as much of a boost from a power hitting corner outfielder as they can from a farm dump trade for a superstar and it would cost a lot less. They also need a lefty starter – that may be a bigger pressing need than anything else.

    1. I don’t see trading Crawford/Kingery/Medina as a farm dump. You plug Machado into Crawford’s position, commit to CeHe as your 2B/leadoff hitter and lose a good pitching prospect.

      1. I could go on and on about this, but I see it quite differently. If Crawford and Kingery hit their projections (somewhere between first division regulars and stars) it’s an enormous give up especially if you could have all three next year just for FA money and, make no mistake, the Phillies will be in a better position than any other team in baseball to overpay. Nope – there’s no good reason for a team this early in its ascent to make a desperation trade like this – in fact, it’s dumb in my view.

        1. I’m just going to stay away from the trade talk rumors – I disagree with the standard view of these things, especially since the team is going to be positioned in 7 months to get an elite player with the give up only a first round pick. I’d rather the team be more selective and prudent in its mid-year trades. An experienced lefty starter and an experienced, overpaid corner outfielder (they can absorb the salary) would work just fine for a pennant run and then they can pick up their huge superstar contract next off season. Fortunately for me, this team is no hurry to trade off its best young assets and I expect they will be very careful about this.

        2. Agree with you on this. The idea of trading away a bunch of future pieces to rent Machado for a few months is foolish. The idea that you just plug Machado into Crawford’s spot, etc. is assuming that Machado is going to sign with the Phillies after 2018. If he doesn’t, then what?

          The approach of trading prospects to plug immediate needs was part of what led to the last 5 years . Not sure why they would want to start down that path again simply because they are a marginal wild-card contender..

          1. Exactly. Prospects burned a hole in Ruben’s pocket and he basically traded all of them except Dom Brown and then he woke up one day with a bad, overpaid team with no young assets. Please let’s not go there again. I had 6 years of dreadful baseball – that’s enough thanks.

            1. While I don’t have a problem with Ruben trying to keep the window open for as long as possible, the prospects we traded away didn’t really amount to much for the other team.

            2. That’s not entirely true. We traded away Carlos Carrasco, J.A. Happ, Jonathan Villar, Domingo Santana and others. But it’s almost besides the point. The point is that when the whole team suddenly (and it was a sudden as it could be) became old, there was no succession plan in place, nobody to replace the old players. So it’s taken 7 years for the team to recover. I don’t want to see that again. The Yankees, Cardinals, Red Sox and Dodgers don’t have those droughts.

          2. Why would you think MacPhail/Klentak would give away a farm for a two-month rental?
            Cubs’ Theo said the same thing earlier in the week.
            I would have to assume the Os know that also, and they will want to maximize their return on losing Machado.

            At some point they will have to allow interested teams in Machado, to have the opportunity to talk to his agent about a LTC prior to a trade. It only stands to benefit the Os.

            The going price for him is already close to being set, and what they probably would expect to get in free agency, and if the team matches it, and both parties agree, then finalize a trade.

            This idea why would Manny want to do that and not test the open market….well there may not be all 29 other MLB teams out there who will bid for him. And maybe he does not want to go thru the circus tour in the off-season, especially if Harper is also doing it.

            1. Theo isnt going to come out and say he’d give a ton for a rental, but he gave away Eloy Jimenez for a couple months of Chapman- because it was going to help them win the world series.
              dont see any reason he wouldnt give up Russell, Happ and a prospect to get Machado and greatly improve their chances to win another world series this year.

    2. Catch I don’t think vv is high ceiling or Crawford or falter. so my trade I believe wouldn’t hurt. to suggest sixto in any trade is crazy

      1. I could live without VV and a couple of decent minor leaguers (say Haseley and Medina) – but putting Crawford and Kingery in that package? Wow – that could be a terrible ticking time bomb.

        1. JPC becomes surplus if Machado is the shortstop, which all indications are he wants to stay there.
          Kingery is who I would balk at in trading.
          They may take JPC plus two pitching prospects….and add on maybe even an OFer between Williams or Cozens.

          1. I’d rather have an infield of Machado, JPC, and Kingery/CeHe. Crawford is going to take a little while to hit his peak, but I still believe in him and he’s cost controlled for the next 6 years – it’s not a small thing. I’d rather throw Maikel into a trade than JPC.

  49. Last night’s game really shows why baseball minds need to get off of the idea of reliever roles especially the idea of the closer. Dominguez hands down pitched the most important two outs of that game.

    Interestingly, I remember seeing a statistic that Madson faced the top/middle of the order more times in the eight inning in 2008 than Lidge did in the ninth.

  50. I do not trade Sixto or Kingery. JP can be part of a deal because Machado takes his position. But, I said before, and I think it is important, not because I said it!, but I don’t believe he gives up the chance to test FA. He may have ties to certain Phils’ executives, and I am very wary of how close those ties are, but he is testing FA. I don’t come close to the highest offer for him at the deadline and take my chances in the off season, knowing that Josh Donaldson is a fine Plan B. Josh Donaldson and whoever we don’t trade to get MM is a better result, IMO, than just MM.

    1. If Donaldson would be willing to sign an extension (4 yrs, $27 m per year), I’d be very into a Donaldson deal. He would be perfect on this team too. Just a phenomenal player.

      1. If you offer that to Donaldson, he’ll jump all over it. He’s going to be 33 and he’s starting to break down physically. He’s the type of player that if he doesn’t sign early, he could see a Jake Arrieta type fall in money.

        I like Donaldson, but if Franco ends the year with 2+ WAR, I would rather stick with Maikel.

        But the contract I would give is 3 years, 75M, with an $25M option dependent on if he stays healthy (playing say 240 games the last 2 years of the deal and not ending the year on the DL).

        1. You have to look really hard at whether Donaldon’s current injuries are age related or just random injuries. If he took the contract you mentioned, that would be a huge win for the Phillies. They could afford that and a superstar outfielder.

          1. Talked to my buddy who’s into analytics and a Blue Jay fan. Asked him what he thinks Donaldson will get. He said 3 years, $45M!

            1. Your buddy is smoking some Canadian cannabis. The discussion starts at $25 AAV and goes up from there.

            2. I can see Donaldson getting something similar to Santana’s in length….three years.
              Money…..first year may be his highest AAV then the gradual trickle down the remaining 2 years.

            3. But there’s a big difference between Donaldson and Santana – both in terms of what position they play and their historical performance. Assuming he’s healthy, if you got Donaldson on a 3 year $80 m contract, it would be a steal. Although he probably wont be a HOFer, for the last 5 year he has absolutely played at a HOF pace.

            4. Though Donaldson has fallen off the cliff this year…30% k rate so far.
              And a BA/OBP of 233/.316…and now he is on a pace for a 2WAR player for the year
              If he continues….a team will be able to get him for less.
              Perhaps that is what Guru’s buddy is seeing and projecting.

            5. Maybe, who knows? But Donaldson started the year late due to injury and he was very good last year. He’d have to be really bad for the rest of the year to reduce his market value like that BUT if he’s bad for another month or so it may make an in-season trade to the Phillies palatable. I believe in the momentum of line-ups and hitting. I always feel that line-ups often his a tipping point where one or two players can make a huge difference and we see it all the time with trade deals that ignite an offense (Cespedes changed the Mets overnight in 2015). I think the Phillies are right near that tipping point. Donaldson could send them over that point. They could be scary good with him in the line-up. If it costs them Franco, I could live with that. It’s worth the risk.

            6. The Phillies would only trade FOR Donaldson if they were going to trade Franco. While Donaldson’s resume speaks louder than Maikel’s, I’m not sure I would take the former at this stage of his career. Unless we were to trade Franco for a frontline SP.

  51. Since the Phillies have a host of LhP prospects doing well in Irvin, Falter, Stewart ,Ranger.JOJO working things out . I love to have Hamels back or even a AJ Happ for the right price.
    Having a middle of the order hitting SS for long term is a huge get.
    Getting both Hamels and Machado is still possible.
    include Neris , Crawford, and a pitching prospect should do it.

    1. Tim…..’and a pitching prospect should do it.’….yes the Os see Sixto, and the Phillies fan is probably looking at a Kilome/Eshelman/Anderson/Irvin et al type of pitching prospect.
      Machado is a 30bWAR player before his 26th birthday.
      Some could consider him to be a generational player.
      The pitching prospect may have to be a premium prospect for them to make the deal.

      1. That’s assuming that Baltimore and Machado BOTH agree to allow extension talks. No extension, no premium prospects. Period.

      2. Even I know that Kilome/Eshelman/Anderson/Irvin won’t get it done and, yes, I’d that deal in a heartbeat because none of those guys project to be cornerstone players. The Orioles will want at least two potential elite talents and some other players.

        My guess is that the “ask” from Baltimore would look like this: Sixto, Kingery, Dominguez, and Haseley. The Phillies wouldn’t do it, but the first offer from Baltimore will probably contain those types of players.

  52. I predict the O’s will only get 1 premium prospect and then a couple of throw ins. They are backed into a corner and they know it. The one Team that might extend slightly is the Dodgers.

  53. Tonight vs a tough customer in Wacha, it seems as if Gabe wants to feature Alfaro. He’s batting 5th. Kingery 3b, Flo at SS. I still think Hoskins needs a game or 2 off for his own sake. Let’s go Doobie! Make it 44!!

    1. Well at least Williams gets a start vs a righty.
      At some point when JPC gets back…they should send Kingery down to LHV for about 30/40 games.

      1. Agreed, Romus. As high as I am (still) on the kid, Crawford’s return would be a good time to let Kingery settle down, especially at the plate. Between then and now, however, if he sees the handwriting on the lineup card, maybe he turns it around. Either way, it’s good that there are options. If he does go down, perhaps the whole roster will be sorted out by the trade deadline.

  54. I suspect Machado will test the free agent market, but if he is open to a trade and negotiating a long-term contract, my three favorites to throw at the O’s are Crawford, Kingery and a young pitcher, though not Sixto.

    That trade gets us an all-star at virtually no cost to what we have now.

    As a big Kingery fan, I have hesitated to consider trading him, but the reality is that Hernandez has several peak years ahead of him, everybody’s hot on Gamboa, and there’s always the possibility of drafting Madrigal as JetPax 2.0, though, likely a decision on Madrigal would have to come first.

    1. I follow the Kingery ideas we’re tossing around, but the fact that they signed him longterm leaves wondering – was that to make him an affordable, controllable, and TRADABLE asset by adding value through the contract? Or did they (and do they still) value him as a future building block? In any case, I hope moving forward doesn’t involve moving him. I tend to think this turns out to be a whole lot of nothing.

  55. In the DESPERATE TIMES CALL FOR DESPERATE MEASURES Dept. – the Dodgers picked up not one but BOTH Goeddel bros, Erik & Tyler!

  56. Cole’s on The Block Now:
    Bob Nightengale
    @BNightengale
    Now that the Texas #Rangers are officially open for business as @Ken_Rosenthal reported, the five-most likely landing spots for Cole Hamels: The #Brewers,#Cubs,#Yankees,#Phillies and #Dbacks ….2:14 PM – May 18, 2018

  57. Here’s the thing if and this is a big If the 5 starters the Phillies have now Excel . The Phillies could just deal for a closer. Franco as of right now control’s his on Furture.
    I don’t think Machado goes anywhere . He has alot of money headed his way.

    The Phillies options for a LhP starting that is A. Hamels B . AJ Happ C. Irvin.
    Irvin could just pitch his way on to the team. VV health could determine alot.

    1. yes, JA era up over 4 due to one bad outing a couple starts ago, but putting together his third solid season in a row together, and the K’s have jumped to 66 in 52 innings vs 13 walks.
      Hamels has the neck thing right now but nice to see his K rate back up this year.

    2. Before we start looking for trades, we need to see what we got so far. Nola is a lock, Arrieta is a lock. We need to see Eflin/VV/Pivetta continue their progress. We would also need to see where we are in the standings.

      I do agree that Hamels should be the first choice. But note that if we trade for Hamels, he’ll also be here for 2019 too. So his trade cost will be higher, and he’s taking up a rotation spot that one of our younger pitchers are hungry for.

  58. Pick your mode of torture – thumb screws? Or listening to Rob Charry on the 94 pre-pre-game show? The man regularly speaks off the top of his unprepared mind with totally inaccurate information. Not to mention his debbie downer delivery. Can they bring Jan Gorham back?

    I feel better now. Thanks….

      1. Tim they said Ce stunk even when he was getting on base and hitting Lack of respect , This kid kingery is so overmatched it silly.

    1. I hate to say it, but Kingery is overmatched right now. And he’s losing playing time to Florimon who has been hot lately. Kingery needs to go down to Lehigh and play every day.

    2. rocco … there’s no doubt Cesar Hernandez looks much better than Scott Kingery right now. CeHe is easily more polished. However, I’d bet Kingery would look a little better and Hernandez would look a little worse if Kingery was playing at 2B every day and CeHe was manning four different positions.

      1. Hinkie I would never imagine you of all people cant see how bad he is right now. Trying to defend how bad he Is playing sounds like tim talking. He could play 2 and still be overmatched , He just right now isn’t a major league player. Look at tim saying kingery who is hitting under 220 got a hit, did he listen to or see the game. All the announcer said the ball should have been caught. tim keep trying some day, you will understand this game. Hinkie cesar was much better at the same age as kingery, look at his numbers.

        1. He’s a plus defender at 2nd . Kingery doing what Cehe can’t . Play other positions other other then 2nd . Cehe a one trick pony a 2nd baseman Only. Again who hit the game tying triple hea I’m Kingery did.

        2. rocco … I’m not telling you Kingery isn’t struggling right now. I’m just keeping it real. He’s playing four different positions, three of which he hasn’t played since college or HS or maybe ever.
          Also, Kingery’s big hit last night was struck hard. Ozuna misplayed a double into a triple by not playing the ball correctly off the wall.
          BTW … this isn’t taking anything away from CeHe. He’s been very good for 3 years now.

          1. Kingery’s triple yesterday could be the jump start he needs to build his confidence back up. And although he can handle different positions on the field, let’s see him play just one for a while.

  59. I’ve seen a lot of Phillies baseball in my time, and I can’t believe Odubel is this hot. The adjustments he makes during the game is astonishing. He could look so bad one AB and then crush it the next. Wow, just wow.

    1. Could you image how many on here kept saying to trade Odubel and Ce, makes you wonder what they were watching.

      1. rocco….that would be me… 😉
        But have noticed David seems to be more mature or maybe more sensible out there….and I guess less clownish.

    1. To be honest, I really never thought of this kid , he to me , came out of nowhere. but its early, hope he continues.

    1. So you’re not interested in making the playoffs this year? If so why the heck would you trade Cesar right now in a player dump? It makes no sense.

      1. Catch you answer silly remarks like riverhorse>>?>? Did you notice he is now showing more power too. quality player In Cesar.

  60. Doesn’t have to be a player dump . Some teams are going to be in the playoff hunt.they might need a 2nd baseman . High price tag is now for Cehe. End of season the FA class for 2nd baseman has alot of top guys . The Phillies have signed Kingery to a long term contract.crazy as it sounds Cehe making more then Herrera this yr .

  61. The irony of it all….just earlier this week Fangraph’s Eric Longenhagen, on his chat room, was asked about ‘tool grading’ players and he mentioned one of the lowest he ever gave out, Hit 20 or maybe 40 I think, was to Pedro Florimon.
    The Flo has been a pleasant surprise for the team so far.

    1. 3:37 -The Ghost of Wade Boggs: What Major League hitter had (or has) the worst hit tool you’ve ever seen? Would you say it was a 20, or is it virtually impossible to make it to the bigs with that?
      3:37
      Eric A Longenhagen: Florimon?

  62. I’ve always been opposed to trading Odubel unless it brought back untold riches (like, say, Manny Machado or Mike Trout), but as recently as a few days ago, I advocated eventually dealing one of CeHe or Kingery in order to eliminate their position dilemma. But the more I think about it, the more of decided to join Team Keep Them All.

    I keep thinking of two situations:

    * 1982: The Phils have two 2B prospects, one of whom is highly regarded (Juan Samuel), the other of whom struggled in his first limited exposure to MLB pitching during a September callup the previous season (Ryne Sandberg). The Phils trade Sandberg and an aging Larry Bowa to the Cubs for Ivan Dejesus, envisioning Dejesus-to-Samuel-to- Whichever 1B Takes Over For Ancient Pete Rose for the foreseeable future. It didn’t work out well.

    * 2005: The Phils have two 2B (Chase Utley and Placido Polanco): Utley is clearly the future, but struggles to get regular reps. Polanco is the only salvation of the Rolen trade, a professional hitter who also plays a passable 3B. But the Phils have David Bell at 3B and he makes a lot of money, so … they trade him to Detroit for a machete.

    In both of these deals, we always look back and say, “Why the rush to make a deal?” I’m not sure how the situation would have worked out in ’82. Maybe they transition Samuel to CF earlier than they actually did, and it takes, allowing Sandberg to play 2B full time (and negating the need for the Hayes deal, allowing Julio Franco to blossom at SS!). I’ve always felt Polanco should have been the 3B on those mid-00s Phillies teams.

    Unless it’s for Machado (or Trout, although that ain’t happening), keep them all. It will sort itself out.

    1. Yeah, it’s beyond belief that people were advocating trading both Cesar and Odubel. Someone YESTERDAY suggested that they should get whatever they can for Cesar? WHAT? Should they also get whatever they can for Nola? How can you be serious about dumping Cesar? Do you not see the player in front of you?

      Well, guess what, both Ceasr and Odubel are now playing at a star level. I suggested before the season started that Cesar would have to move sooner or later (not because I didn’t like Cesar – I’ve been one of his biggest supporters here since 2016 – but because I like Kingery so much) but I said they should not trade him for less than fair value, but I need to re-think that now because he’s playing at like a 6+ WAR pace and he’s developed so much power that he’s now one of the best second basemen in the majors. I let this thing play out. I am still a huge believer in Kingery, but if you’re serious about making the playoffs and doing something this year, you don’t trade Cesar – period. He’s much better than Kingery at the moment – it’s not close. Where they will be two years from now is a different discussion.

      1. Not only is he better than Kingery right now, but Cesar also represents the only true leadoff hitter in this lineup. I don’t think any of us wants to see Doobie back in that role after what he’s shown this season hitting third.

        Kingery is going to get plenty of opportunities to see major league pitching in a utility role. I don’t think its the utility role that’s preventing him from performing at the plate. I think its the adjustment to big league pitching for a guy that already had less than ideal K/BB rates in the minors. But I think he’ll figure it out and become a very good player. And I’d prefer that development happen on the Phillies in the absence of him being the main chip that brings Machado (Catch, I know you disagree on this point).

      2. But Roccom, you also need to be more patient with Kingery. When Cesar was Kingery’s age he was a well below average hitter and a marginally average fielder. Cesar worked and grew into the job and I expect Kingery will too. You can love Cesar and like Kingery or love Kingery and really like Cesar – but people decide they are going to take sides in this dispute? It makes no sense to me.

      3. Catch – I was one of those advocating to trade Herrera and Hernandez over the winter, and I was wrong. My reasoning at the time was that we needed starting pitchers, and you have to trade value to get value. I never said that I wanted them gone for a case of beer or a bag of balls, and I never really expected the Phillies to be strong contenders this year.
        Herrera is a major reason that the Phillies are where they are, he is untouchable. Hernandez on the other hand, other than a couple of extra homers, is the same player that he’s been for the past two years. He a very nice player at a position that nobody respects in baseball. Add to that the fact that the Phillies have a glut of middle infielders in their system. If the Phillies can make a deal for a lefty reliever, you have to at least consider trading Hernandez.
        Klentak works within a cone of silence. I’m curious if he called Seattle when the news of Cano came out? Was he close to a deal? When the Phils were in Baltimore, did he take their GM to lunch? In addition to Machado, did the name Zach Britton come up?
        In my opinion, in the long run, Kingery will be the better player. If a deal for Machado is going to be made, I’d include Kingery, Crawford, and Hernandez. None of the three will ever reach Manny’s numbers.
        Question: Is it legal for the Phillies to speak to Machado or his agent? I would guess not. I wouldn’t need for him to sign an extension, but I would want an assurance that he will accept the highest offer. I could see him signing for less money to go to a favorite team.

        1. Look, I think Machado wants to hit FA, his agent wants it, and I’m sure the players union want it. So why would the Phillies trade real assets for somebody who’s going to hit FA?

          And I don’t know why you’re saying there’s a glut of middle infielders in the system. The next IF prospect we have is Gamboa, and he’s in Clearwater. Any IF prospect we have is at least 2 years away.

            1. Valentin is 24, and has a minor league lifetime OPS of .727. If he’s in the mix, he’s dead last in the pecking order. He’s like a poor man’s Scott Kingery at this point.

            2. Except he could actually also be pretty good and a lot better than the .724 historic OPS suggests. Middle infielders often grow later as hitters as they get stronger and learn how to hit with power – Valentin appears to be one of these players. Valentin could end up being quite a good MLB player. I agree he’s behind Kingery, but it doesnt mean he can’t be really good.

        2. This makes no sense. First of all, why spend all of these assets now when, in 7 months, it will only cost you money and a first round pick? Second, the team needs to do more than fill that position – they have three cost-controlled players who could be outstanding and who are needed to fill two of the three other positions. This would be a horrible trade and it’s one the Phillies fortunately, will never make.

          1. Catch … MM can, at most, cost a 2nd round draft pick as a FA. Most likely, he’ll be traded this summer and won’t cost the Phillies any draft pick when they sign him this winter.

      4. Cehe 9th in majors in.slg 9th in hr too. Cehe is 17 in 2 nd so there’s the 3 power areas. Cehe very good at getting on base . Plays a solid D but no way is he an all-star or top 10 2nd baseman . He’s also 2nd In k’s let’s not forget Daniel Murphy ,Cano are hurt . I not sold on CeHe power yet. Let him Put up 20 hrs 30 2nd bases a yr for a couple of yrs first.

        1. That’s hilarious. The question is whether Cesar is a top 20 position player in all of baseball not whether he is a top 10 second baseman. He is on his way to an elite season – 20-25 homers, above average base running, well above average fielding, .825-850 OPS. What on earth on you talking about?

    2. Right now, the Philies are making a push to make the playoffs. We are NOT trading Cesar in season. Could you imagine if we traded Cesar to a contender and he came back to bite us in the azz in the playoffs?

      Let’s all agree that Odubel is not going anywhere. Let’s put that to rest.

      Cesar will be 28 soon, has 2 more years of arbitration, and on pace on for 6 WAR!
      Is he a 6 WAR player? Probably not. Could he be a 4 WAR player? That’s very possible. The jury is still out on JP and Franco. I agree that we should NOT trade Cesar until we get a definitive answer on JP, Franco, and even Kingery himself.

      1. He’s already an established 3-4 WAR player, a true first division regular, for the last two years although he’s had to endure more than his share of snubs on this site. He’s passed that mile marker and is now an appreciably better player. He’s a 4-6 WAR player – an all-star type player. He’s a guy you keep and use unless you get a true haul in return and he’s the type of guy you absolutely do not trade when you’re contending for a playoff spot.

        1. I’m in complete agreement here. I’ve always like Cesar. He has worked really hard to become the player he is today. And I’ve said this before, a 3 WAR player doesn’t sound like much, but it’s hard to replace. They don’t grow on trees. I would keep Cesar.

        2. He’s never going to be an all-star never. Theres 2 many vg 2 nd baseman out there vets and younger studs. What what the Braves have or the Dodgers, Cubs, Nat’s.

          1. He is right now. You are blinded by his past. Cesar Hernandez is an AS caliber player this year – a top 20-30 position player in the majors. This is happening right in front of you. Watch the games. Follow the statistics.

            1. To put a finer point on this.

              If Cesar keeps anywhere close to his pace – he will be between 5-6.5 WAR.

              But let’s assume he’s only at 5 WAR at the end of the season, how good is that compared to other second basemen?

              Here’s a list of the number of second baseman with 5 WAR the last 4 years.

              2017 – 3
              2016 – 7
              2015 – 0
              2014 – 2

              He’s an AS caliber player right now.

              The Cesar slights never end.

            2. Catch you have more success talking to the wall. Blind men cant see a good player. 4 th in hr for second basemen now, second in obp. on a pace to steal over 40 bases . and we should trade him for a left hand relief pitcher, that’s so funny , lmao. Must be a mets fan. or never saw a game of baseball

            3. rocco…LOL.
              FYI…WAR position players
              Doobie is number 5 right now,

              1. Trout • LAA 3.9
              2. Betts • BOS 3.6
              3. Ramirez • CLE 3.0
              4. Lindor • CLE 2.8
              5. Herrera • PHI 2.4

            4. Fangraphs has Cesar as tied for 3rd for 2nd basemen in MLB with a 1.7fWAR
              1. Lowrie—–2.2fWAR
              2. Albies—–1.9fWAR
              3. Cesar
              4. Cabrera—–1.7fWAR

            5. I’ll give 50 players better then Ceaser better yet 💯. Trout, Harper, Trea Turner, Judge, A Simmons, Herrera, Machado, Mookie Betts, Jean Segura,Jose Ramírez,F Lindor, Jorge Soler, G Springer,Moose,N Maraza,JD Martínez,V Staton,Didi Gergouis,Nolan Arenado , Blackman, Freddie Freeman,A Cabrera,Buster Posey, B Belt ,Goldie, KBryant,B Crawford, Yelich, Albie’s , Travis Shaw , T Story,Evan Longoria,E Saurez,Lamb,Altuve, Daniel Murphy, both Seagers,Chris Taylor, Justin Turner,Bellinger,Bogaerts,R Devers, Schoop, Donaldson,Solarte,Votto, Ian Happ,K Schwarber,Amex Rosario,Realmuto.
              51 I think .
              A second 2nd only player that has to hit for Avg. Alot of today’s 2nd baseman can play other positions well like Kingery .they have the power already. Ceaser never had a 10 hr season yet.

            6. Tim…but of those 50 players….how many can turn the pivot for the double play at second?

          1. catch – A GOOD lefty reliever, not just an arm. He would have to be much better than Morgan. I’d do that trade in a heartbeat.

            1. You don’t trade AS caliber position players for lefty relievers. That’s how your team goes to hell. Fortunately, it won’t happen. This is not the Ed Wade years where you send really good position players (Polanco) for a reliever (Urbina). It won’t happen.

        1. How many elite LH relievers are there? And relievers are not consistent. One year they could be good, one year they could be really bad. Zach Britton only gave the Oriloes 3 really good years, he was below average last year, and hasn’t pitched this year. Andrew Miller really has had only 3 really good years the last 5 years. And as good as Aroldis Chapman is, he hasn’t made an AS game since 2015.

  63. And, by the way, if the team continues to contend, Pedro Florimon, who is now a very good player, is going to play more too – this very moment he’s our best shortstop in my view. Of course you need to develop the other players, but if you’re trying to win, Pedro needs to play a bunch too.

    1. I liked what I saw of Florimon at the end of last year, but I assumed that it was a fluke. I may have been wrong on that.

      1. It’s not going to last long. He’s 31 and even with his good numbers, his career OPS is under .600. He was a bad player for a long time.

  64. Florimon is playing very well. At this point, I don’t care how he did before. I am enjoying his play.

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