Box Score Recap – 8/11/2015

Clearwater (65-51) beat the Lakeland Flying Tigers 4-1. The Threshers jumped out to a 2-0 lead on Dylan Cozens’ two-run triple in the first inning.  Ricardo Pinto made those runs hold up. Pinto gave back a run in the bottom of the first, but didn’t allow a hit or a walk after the first inning. The only runner to reach base during Pinto’s second through seventh innings did so on a fielding error. Still nursing a 2-1 lead, Alberto Tirado took the mound in the eighth. He allowed a single but ended the inning with a pick off. The Threshers provided some breathing room for Ulises Joaquin in the ninth, and he pitched around a one-out single to earn his 15th save.

The Threshers scored first, again. Malquin Canelo singled to open the game. With one out, he was erased on a fielder’s choice off the bat of Andrew Pullin. Rhys Hoskins walked, and Dylan drove both runners home with a triple over the head of Tigers’ centerfielder, Jiwan James. After the Tigers’ one run response in the bottom of the inning, the score remained the same until the ninth. Chace Numata doubled with one out. Jessie Valentin reached on a strike out/passed ball. Canelo drove Numata home with a single to left. Valentin scored on Carlos Tocci’s single to right.

  • Malquin Canelo (.239) went 3-5 with an RBI.
  • Carlos Tocci (.276) went 1-5 with an RBI.
  • Rhys Hoskins (.300) went 0-3 with walk and 2 K.
  • Dylan Cozens (.280) went 1-4 with a triple and 2 RBI.

Lehigh Valley (53-64) lost to the Syracuse Chiefs 4-1.  Sean O’Sullivan (1-2, 4.97) pitched a perfect game for five innings.  Unfortunately, those innings were the first and third through sixth.  O’Sullivan got rocked in the second, and the IronPigs could recover.  Aaron Altherr (.298) went 2-3 with a double and a walk.

Reading (65-50) overcame a six run deficit to beat the Harrisburg Senators 11-8.  Ben Lively (4.17) gave up six runs on nine hits in four innings.  He walked one and struck out six.  Ethan Martin (5.04) gave up a run in two innings on two hits and two walks.  Tom Windle (4-5, 4.62) gave up an unearned run when an Angelo Mora extended the seventh innng.  He got the win when the offense exploded in the bottom of the inning.  Ryan O’Sullivan didn’t hurt the cause in his one inning, and Stephen Shackleford picked up his franchise record 25th save.

The Phils survived the Senators 16-hit attack with eleven hits of their own plus eight walks.  Finding themselves behind 6-0 early, they began chipping away with Harold Martinez’ sac fly in the fourth and Nick Williams’ two-run home run in the fifth.  After giving two runs back, the Phils entered the bottom of the seventh trailing 8-3.  Brodie Greene started the rally by reaching base on an error.  Pinch-hitter Art Charles struck out, and Nick Williams stroked an RBI double.  Mora followed with a “rally-killing” two-run home run.  Cam Perkins and Brock Stassi worked a couple walks.  Andrew Knapp grounded an RBI single to right and took second on a throwing error.  Martinez’ two-run single gave the Phils’ a one run lead.  Brian Pointer’s RBI triple and Greene’s RBI double closed out the scoring in the eight-run inning.  O’Sullivan and Shackleford did the rest.

  • Williams (.438) 2-5 with 2 runs scored, a double, home run (3), and 3 RBI.
  • Mora (.286) went 1-5 with a home run (2) and 2 RBI.
  • Perkins (.264) went 2-4 with 2 runs scored and an RBI.
  • Brock Stassi (.307) went 0-2 with 3 walks.
  • Knapp (.406) went 2-4 with a walk and RBI.
  • Martinez (.314) went 2-4 with a SF and 3 RBI.
  • Pointer (.235) went 1-5 with a triple, RBI, and 3 K.
  • Greene (.258) went 1-2 with a double, 2 walks, and an RBI.
  • Pointer had 2 outfield assists one runner thrown out at home, another at second.

J.P. Crawford did not play.  He sat out a one-game suspension for bumping the home plate umpire during an altercation Friday night.  He was ejected from that game for arguing a strike call.

Lakewood (59-54) beat the Greensboro Grasshoppers 6-1.  Austin Davis (3-4, 3.03) held the Grasshoppers to one run on six hits and two walks in six innings.  Joey DeNato (1.41)went three innings for his 8th save.

The BlueClaws tallied three of their runs and nine of their 14 hits off Tyler Kolek, the Miami Marlins first round pick (2nd overall) in the 2014 draft.

  • Helis Rodriguez (.303) went 1-4 with a HR (10), walk, and RBI.
  • Scott Kingery (.260) went 3-5.
  • Kyle Martin (.302) went 2-4 with a double and RBI.
  • Damek Tomscha (.272) went 3-4 with an RBI.
  • Cord Sandberg (.257) went 1-4.
  • Davis and DeNato each picked a runner off first base.

Williamsport (32-19) beat the West Virginia Black Bears 5-2.  Jose Taveras (5-2, 2.93)weathered a first inning storm where he gave up two runs and threw a lot of pitches (over 30 I think), and recovered to last five innings and qualify for the win.  He gave up five hits and struck out seven.  Skylar Hunter (one, one-hit inning), Feliberto Sanchez (four Ks in two, one-hit innings), and Robert Tasin (10th save) preserved the win.

The Cutters fought back with two-runs each in the second and fourth innings.  A single run in the fifth closed out the scoring.

  • Zachary Coppola (.302) went 0-4.
  • Mark Laird (.289) went 1-4.
  • Josh Tobias (.307) went 0-4.
  • Jesus Posso (.267) went 3-4 with 3 runs scored, a double, HR (5), and RBI.
  • Venn Biter (.276) went 2-4 with a double.
  • Jan Hernandez (.218) went 1-2 with a double, walk, and RBI.
  • Austin Bossart (.355) went 1-3 with 2 RBI.
  • Biter (7) and Hernandez (5) successfully stole bases.

GCL Phillies (26-14) lost to the GCL Yankees1, 7-1.  Bailey Falter (1-1, 3.60) gave up three first inning runs but kept the Yankees off the board in the next two innings.  Will Stewart and Zach Morris allowed 4 more runs over the remaining five innings.

  • Jose Antequera (.280) went 0-4.
  • Jonathan Arauz (.275) went 0-4.
  • “C” Randolph (.292) went 2-4 with a run scored and double.
  • Tommy Joseph went 1-3 with a walk.
  • Luis Encarnacion (.298) went 2-4.
  • Juan Luis had the lone RBI on a ground out
  • Luke Williams (.296) went 1-3.
  • Greg Picket went 1-3 with a double.

DSL Phillies (33-29) lost to the DSL Royals 3-2.  Daniel Brito (.269) went 3-5 with a double.  Henry Santana (.234) went 3-4 with a triple.

VSL Phillies (30-40) Season completed.  Finished tied for third with the VSL Cubs in a four team league.  Their leading hitter was Enger Jimenez – .307, 36 R, 33 RBI, 15 SB.  He was second on the team with three HR.  Lenin Rodriguez led the team with four.  Sergio Velis was probably their best pitcher – 4-2, 1.33, 74.2 IP, 50 H, 14 BB, 59 K, 0.86 WHIP.

Here’s the affiliated scoreboard from MiLB.

Extra Innings –

  • Reading SS JP Crawford served a one-game suspension Tuesday night for bumping an umpire in Friday’s game while arguing a strike call (for which he was ejected).
  • 2B Devin Lohman assigned to Reading Fightin Phils from Lehigh Valley IronPigs.
  • 2B Tyler Pastornicky assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs.
  • Reading Fightin Phils placed LHP Hoby Milner on the temporarily inactive list.
  • Chase Utley Clears Waivers

142 thoughts on “Box Score Recap – 8/11/2015

  1. Logan Moore – Several years ago he was considered a great defensive catcher with no bat. Now he is in AAA with a respectable batting average as a part time player. Could he be a backup catcher someday in the big leagues?

    1. He deserves a chance….turns 25 next week, time is running out. But then again I think of Chris Coste and Erik Kratz and they paid their dues for a long long time.

    2. He has become someone you want to be at bat in clutch situations. He has progressed as one would hope at a key position. Good call on Moore. He is also a lefty bat in the line up.

  2. Knapp keeps killin’.
    If he finishes over .400, he may get nationally noticed beyond the Phillies prospect boards.

    1. If he keeps showing power he is gonna play in majors. Even if it is a 1B. But I doubt he gets anywhere near a national list. He is not the type of prospect that scouts like.

      1. That makes me laugh thinking of the movie Moneyball where all the scouts are in a war room discussing prospects …. ” we don’t like that guy, why not? Because he has an ugly girlfriend. wait, what?
        . Yeah , guys with ugly girlfriends don’t play well because they are always in a bad mood”.

        Some scouting tools are overanalyzed.

        1. To be fair, if he doesn’t have power and doesn’t play defense well, then he isn’t likely to be a very productive MLB player, regardless of what his Batting Average in AA is. Power is key to his value as even optimistic projections on his defense make it only an average tool.

          1. vi…when you mean power I assume you mean ISO….right now his is probably not sustainable at .291 with 150PAs in AA, and especially at Reading’s ballpark….but if he levels and sits 100 pts less, that should be enough power. As for his defense, reports from coaches say he is continually improving and works hard at it. have to see how far he goes on that aspect.

            1. Regarding defense, that was the one positive I took from the article – coaches saying he has the aptitude and the desire. Certainly tools matter for defense but a lot can be made up for with a willingness to work hard at it.

          2. Saying he doesn’t have power is a discredit, 31 doubles, 5 triples, 8 HRs isn’t exactly NO POWER..
            you can say he needs to increase his power numbers, but to say NO POWER isn’t right.

            Heck, an AL team would like him as a DH who could occasionally play catcher or 1b.

            Rizzotti and Ruf see great power hitters, LOL…

            How many HRs does chooch have, this year or career? don’t get me wrong because I love chooch, but would u rather have a great backstop who hits.240 every season or a completely average catcher who his .300 ?

            1. 1. I didn’t say he doesn’t have power. I said, “if he doesn’t have power.” The power he is displaying in AA is a first for him. He is hot now. but don’t assume this means he will have power in the majors. A DH without power isn’t very valuable. So it all comes back to his power. Can he maintain that as he faces better pitching?

              2. Chooch is probably an 70 (or maybe 80) grade defensive catcher with a 50 arm. He also has a career .352 OB% and .750 OPS. That profile is a very, very good catcher. So I don’t really understand your point.

            2. To make this point very clear…the probability that Knapp turns into a Catcher with as much value as Ruiz is very very low.

              1. There is no chance that his defense will ever be anywhere close to Chooch’s defense. So he is already starting in a hole.

              2. Chooch had very good minor league numbers with some pop and low K rate.

              For Knapp to even equal Chooch’s value, he would have to be explosive with the bat.

            3. I would echo v1’s points, and add this: Knapp isn’t going to hit .300. Once again we encounter the common-on-this-site tendency to project SSS minor league BA to major league performance.

              The optimistic case for Knapp probably looks like this:

              (1) .275 hitter with a .325 OB%.
              (2) Mid-range power (15 to 20 HR a year).
              (3) Average defensive abilities.

              Especially given the current diminished run scoring environment, that would be a better hitter than Ruiz, but probably not enough better to make up for the defensive differences. And that’s his upside.

            4. Now don’t get me wrong, I’d take that. That’s an above average regular. Ruiz was a well above average regular, albeit for a fairly brief run because of his late start.

      2. Knapp is coming the other way from Moore by needing defensive skills. As we have seen Lino develop favorably, it is good to remember that good defensive catchers take a while to develop. Knapp would not be a projection for a fast track to the majors. He will need time to develop those catching skills and to have his arm come back fully from surgery.

    2. Knapp has a BABIP of .457 in AA. Wow! That’s over 150 PAs. Hard to do. I think we can safely say he will not be hitting .400 by the end of the year.

      He has cut down on his K% a lot in AA, so that is a good development.

      He has also shown greater power but I’m not sure how much to attribute that to a change in home park.

      I hope he goes to the AFL to continue to improve behind the plate.

      1. Serious question- is catcher now the strongest position in the org? Chase Numata, Devi, Alfaro, knapp, Lino all have potential

          1. Lenin Rodriguez is VSL, which is not A-ball. It is less that GCL rookie ball. It is significantly less than the DSL. Presumably Rodriguez comes to GCL next year. That likely puts him 6 years away from the major leagues, assuming he makes it to the major leagues.

            1. Semantics…sorry for the discrepancy. Perhaps should have referred it to ‘minus A level’…that would seem to better fit ..

          2. Posso has been playing first a whole heck of a lot this year. I’m not so sure he’s seen as a catcher anymore.

        1. I would say it is the deepest, but I think OF generally and LF specifically (Williams and Rando) is where the system is strongest (on a rankings basis).

  3. I can’t see why Utley would generate a return less than an Eflin type. Could make a case for a higher upside prospect too. 2b is hard spot to fill.

    1. If it is the Giants, I think Sabean will try to fork over one-time hot prospect Kyle Crick…he has fallen from top 2/3 (spring 2014) in the org list to about 6/7 depending on which national you read ..at one time he was their hottest prospect…but now he cannot throw strikes..though his stuff plays well…but another Aumont? Their system seems depleted now. The Cubs and Yankees have decent prospects. Angels have pretty good young pitchers….Hunter Green, young and skilled, would be an interesting lefty with potential.
      I am sure Chase will get his choice on where he wants to go if he wants to leave.

      1. I wonder if they can get anything for frenchy? I hope chase goes to a team that will win a championship. I wonder if he wants to play next year.?

        1. rocco…..if Chase wins another WS…I think he will temper his enthusiasm this time if he is asked to go to the mike. 😉

        1. I’d much rather this approach especially since they have done well filling in at the upper minors these last few months. A young player in A ball having a good season.

  4. All the prospects shined, the Knappster, Altherr, Nick Williams, kingery, martin, C , pinto, encarnacion…. Cozens another triple..

    The knappster, knappmeister, knapparino, knappachino, knappalicious…… LOL

    1. Don’t forget the above-mentioned Herlis Rodriguez. There have been a lot of break-out farm hands this year.

  5. Wow Reading is a fun team. I am pumped to go see them in Trenton Friday night.

    And in that Clearwater game….who did Cozens triple over the head of??? is that THE Jiwan James???

    1. Well, Shack surpassed the previous franchise record of 24 set and met by Toby Borland (1991), Wayne Gomes (1996), and Justin Friend (2012). Borland and Gomes actually made it to the show. Friend is out of baseball.

  6. Asche has 861 career ABs with remarkably consistent (and poor) stats. His bat is very weak and he doesn’t have a defensive position. He is not a good MLB player.

    Time to bring up Altherr and see what he can do. He has proven everything he needs to at the minor league level.

    On a different topic, Asche is a cautionary tale for people who get excited about prospects with great minor league batting average, with poor power or speed.

      1. A couple of points about that …

        SS attains significance more quickly for some statistics than for others. But 933 PA is pretty significant for almost everything. AND it’s even more significant for some of his more problematic numbers – K% especially. You can’t even say he’s had bad BIP luck – his BABIP is a better than average .311.

        The second point it this … even if you posit an improvement in his hitting – he’s a left fielder whose defense needs to improve a lot just to be average. Say his hitting improves to league average – that’s optimistic, more than a 10% improvement. A left fielder who is an average hitter and average fielder is actually a below average regular (because the average left fielder is an above average hitter). So positing large improvements in his hitting and fielding still gets you a below average major league regular.

    1. What makes you think altherr is any better as a hitter? I only saw him play twice. so I have no clue, that’s why I am asking.

      1. I have no idea if he is…what I said was, “time to bring him up and see what he can do.” The point is, the rest of this season should be about figuring out who is a keeper and who is not. And after 900 PAs, Asche is definitely not a keeper.

        1. Agree on asche. I Said a couple of times I was on the fence with him. I just couldn’t tell if he would hit. only thing I really believe was he wasn’t a good third basemen. I Really don’t know about knapp, but I do know this, after watching chooch. and then Cameron rupp.. maybe its in my mind, but the difference in the way they call a game is unbelievable. Chooch just has a really good grip on the hitters imo. Knapp if he isn’t a good catcher that would scare me. Catchers must imo play good defense in todays game.

      2. We don’t – but what we do know is that Asche can’t play. So let’s move onto the next possibility.

      3. I watched him during the 2013 season at Clearwater. I thought he (and Perkins) carried the team offensively after Franco and Dugan were promoted. I remembered him as a capable hitter with very good defense. So, I checked and he led the team in most offensive categories like hits, 2B, 3B, RBI; was second in AB, R, HR (Franco), BB. (Of course, that just means he was there a full season.) He was behind Franco and Dugan in SLG and OPS; behind Franco, Dugan, Alonzo, Perkins, and Stassi in OBP; behind Franco, Dugan, Perkins, and Stassi in AVG. He commited 2 errors in CF where he got about 60% of his total chances.

        I thought then that he might be able to compete in the majors. I still do. I don’t know if he is better or worse than Herrera, Asche, Brown, Francoeur,… but I don’t think he is worse.

        This season, his slash at LHV is virtually the same as REA. And he has surpassed his R, RBI, and HR in 40-50 less AB than he had at REA. His K% is slightly higher since the promotion, but it is better than it was 2 seasons ago.

        I confess that I have always admired his build, he just looks like a ball player at 6’5, 215. But it also appears he has developed as a hitter and improved on the Ks. I would like to see how he performs at the next level.

        1. Hope he is one of those late-bloomers after 2800 PAs in the miors.
          Josh Donaldson took awhile before the light went on.

    2. I will fully admit I was a big Asche fan. A gritty player reminiscent of a young Chase. The promise he showed in ’12 at Reading and more so at LHV in ’13, and even last year, which, given his history as a late bloomer, would likely have projected this year to at least 15/70/.275 – is very much dashed. Despite all the ABs, he could still develop into an average ML player, but I no longer hold out hope for him as one of the future core of the team.

      1. What performance leads you to believe he might develop into a ML regular? After 1,000 ABs he’s suddenly going to develop power or a hit tool? His career OPS+ of 90 isn’t an accident. Asche is what he is, a below to well below replacement level player.

        Its not the end of the world, we have other prospects in the wings waiting for the chance we’ve already afforded to Asche.

      2. We’re in a position where we don’t have to give up on him. He’s been good enough in the past that you don’t give up on him unless you have to.

        1. When has he been good exactly? Please point to a track record in his 900+ ML ABs where he’s been good?

          1. The Short Attention Span Syndrome or Shiny New Thing.

            One week Altherr deserves to be the starting in CF and should be called up. The next week Herrera is an All-Star in the making.

            Asche will be in LF until Williams is ready in 2017. You do not replace a guy under team control until the replacement is ready.

            You waste millions on a marginal upgrade in production.

            1. Don’t recall saying anything about replacing him from outside the org. via big money FA signing.

              But if you think Asche is going to be the LF until 2017, you’re outside of your mind.

            2. David, I’d like to see you even try to make an ARGUMENT why Asche should keep the starting left fielder job. Your only “argument” through many, many, many posts on the subject is that he is just learning left field … which might be relevant if defense was the only problem, but it’s not. The problem is the man can’t hit. Probably not enough for a third baseman, definitely not for a left fielder.

              As for “[y]ou do not replace a guy guy under team control until the replacement is ready,” that’s true under certain circumstances. Circumstances that do NOT obtain in the case of Asche, who is a well below replacement level player. Those kind of players are … well, replaced, almost without exception. The exceptions:

              (1) Low enough SS that there’s a real question whether he is truly below replacement level.
              (2) Excellent minor league/scouting credentials (see, e.g., Jackie Bradley).
              (3) Low payroll teams that don’t care about winning.

              None of those circumstances apply to Asche. Almost 1000 PA, and a minor league record that wasn’t THAT impressive, along with a scouting profile that was even less so. And the Phillies have plenty of financial resources, and presumably care about winning.

              I can see a set of circumstances where he keeps the job by default, but that’s a BAD outcome. Even setting aside internal options, there are plenty of “failed” prospects who could be acquired for nothing or almost nothing that have a better chance of success than Asche at this point.

              He should IMO keep the job for another 3 weeks to give Altherr a little more development time in AAA. But Altherr should be the guy in September. Maybe Asche gets a few more starts early next year (so they don’t burn a year of control for Altherr in 2016).

            3. A) Who said Herrera will be in AAA?
              B) Is the only OF option for 2016 Herrera – Brown – Altherr?

              Maybe you need to explore other options before awarding the position to a -2 WAR player??

            4. Look, I made a comment a couple of days ago about Herrera being in AAA next year, but even I admit that that is far from certain. Heck, given a choice between Asche and Herrera, despite my reservations about Herrera, I’d give Herrera the opportunity.

              But even if Herrera is in AAA, I’d rather see a “scrap heap” player – a “failed” prospect or maybe even a rule 5 guy – get a chance next year rather than Asche. He stinks. Heck, I’d give Dugan a chance, even though I think his chance of being a decent regular is quite low.

              The Asche ship has sailed.

            5. If 2016 is a writeoff year and Williams is penciled into LF for 2017 then whoever you get will be there for one year only.

              Therein lies the problem, not at the next season (2016) but going forward from 2017 and beyond.

              2016 is going to be a writeoff year as the final group of bad contracts expire (Ruiz and Howard).

              Unless you get a very cheap failed prospect to come the benefit is likely to be marginal.

              2016 is not about winning, it is about development so that when the guys in AA and AAA arrive you begin to get an idea for what you may have and what holes to fill.

            6. Like I have said before two-thirds of the starting outfield (Asche and Herrera) are learning their positions on the fly.

              People have outsized expectations for guys like this and need to pull them back because it is a learning experience.

            7. We’ve already addressed the “learning the position on the fly” fallacy as its just that – a fallacy. Asche is well below replacement level offensively. B/c you don’t see a ready replacement for him in 2016, doesn’t mean he “wins” the position by default.

              Rule 5 (Victorino), waivers (Werth), acquiring somoene else’s minor league talent for cheap – there are options out there for acquiring a LF who might actually have future value. Asche does not.

            8. I have many reservations about Herrera and his ability to maintain producing at the plate with his free-swinging style. That said, I think he’s the starting CF next season, with Altherr in LF and Brown in RF. He’s done decently defensively considering this is his first year playing the position, and it should be his job to lose in 2016.

              I can’t imagine why Herrera would start next year in AAA when he’s been a sparkplug on this team all year. There aren’t three better outfielders that will be on the roster next spring.

            9. How is Brown getting a pass for RF when he has a much larger book of data?

              Everyone wants to dump Asche and keep Brown? I do not understand that one.

              If anything Brown needs to be the first one to go. We have seen enough over his career to know that he is a failed prospect and should not be re-signed in any way.

              I can tolerate another year of Asche but not Brown.

            10. Brown versus Asche …

              First of all, it’s a false comparison. Asche can’t play right field, and it’s questionable whether Altherr has the arm for it.

              That said, I have just about lost patience with Brown also. But forced to choose Brown has the clear advantage:

              (1) Brown has been better as a hitter (career wRC+ 96 versus 89).
              (2) Right field versus left field.
              (3) Brown probably better as a fielder right now – I’ll admit this one is not clear cut. But his metrics are a lot better this year, and Asche has been truly awful. Yes, Asche might improve, probably will some.
              (4) Minor league track record – big edge to Brown, though I’ll admit that at this point the relevance of this is minimal.

              Asche is a couple years younger. No other advantages that I can see.

          2. Thanks. Note that I don’t feel QUITE as strongly as you do. There’s some chance (albeit a very small one) that Asche could improve to the point where his is … decent. Maybe a somewhat bellow average regular, if EVERYTHING breaks right for him,, which still has value (though his best shot at this might be third base).

            But the deciding factor is opportunity cost. There’s 750 major league jobs. There’s at least 1,500 players who, given a couple thousand major league PA (or the pitching equivalent) have SOME chance to develop into a decent player. But you can’t give all 1,500 such players that opportunity. You give the BEST of those players that chance. That excludes Asche.

  7. Lots of discussion regarding catching because of the Alfaro acquisition and the Knapp burst this season. At the major league level, I’ve been thinking about why the Phils haven’t tried harder to eat some of Ruiz’s money and trade him as well. The more I think about it, I think it is really important to keep him on the team this year and next year to work with the young pitching staff. Even if he’s only playing approx 50% of the time, he can be a valuable contributor in bullpen sessions, the clubhouse, etc with the young pitchers.

    Not sure what next year’s starting rotation holds, but Nola is a given, and at least a few of the following will be mainstays next year – Morgan, Biddle, Eikhoff, Asher, Pettibone, Buchanan, Eflin. All of these guys could benefit from the presence of Ruiz, with a backup such as Lino, Rupp, or Moore. Come 2017, hopefully Alfaro or Knapp, will be ready to assume regular catching duties for the Phils, and then maybe the signing of a veteran backup to work with some of the younger pitchers would make sense, but it’s also possible someone like Rupp, Lino, or Moore could fill that role longer term.

    1. With Buchanan’s future in doubt, there’s only 2 gimmes in the rotation right now: Nola and Morgan. And I’m praying Morgan doesn’t implode either. I think Eickhoff is a lock now that Buchanan is out. Pettibone is out since he’s coming off injury, Eflin is still in AA. So Nola, Morgan, Eickhoff with at least 1 veteran on a 1 year deal. Asher should be next since he has more experience at AAA AND he’s doing well for Lehigh.

        1. Look I am so tired of us winning mean less games and losing out on superstars. The eagles win a meanless game and instead of oj simpson we get Leroy keys. we win another meanless game and lose out on jim plunkett who comes back to beat us in superbowl. I am keeping both O’ Sullivans in my rotation plus trading for Kendrick’s I want the first pick next year. My rotation would be Williams. kendricks, O’ Sullivan. O’ Sullivan. harang. nola would be shut down too many innings.

          1. attaboy rocco…..a regular Sam Hinkie thinker. Tank you.
            BTW….you forgot about Andy Reid’s next to last year…..Eagles win last four meaningless games vs poor comp and finish 8-8 in 2011 and Luire thinks a turnaround is coming…then they go 4-12 in 2012, the last season under Andy..

    2. there was that blurb about Cole having been asked to go to SF before the Texas trade came about, and possible return was Beede and Susac. if we were getting Susac, im wondering if Ruiz might have been going back to SF, as no need for him here and SF plays Posey alot at first. Moot point now but combined with the Kratz signing has me thinking they were at least exploring sending Ruiz out.

  8. Can somebody please explain the rationale behind the thought process of the faction on this board that assume Herrera will be in AAA next year? Some people speak like its a certainty and I just don’t see it. Please break down why this would benefit Herrera (and not be a step back), why it would benefit the Phillies, and why you think the Phillies wont have the room in the OF next year to let him work out his issues/grow/develop in the majors.

    Thanks

    1. The fact of the matter is this, you wouldn’t be able to trade a 24 year AAA OF with the numbers that Altherr has for a 23 year old OF with the numbers that Herrera has at the major league level (104 OPS+, 1.4 WAR in 335ABs). Just for that reason alone, I believe Herrera will be the starting CF for the Phillies in 2016.

      1. Look at his Krate after June 1st vs prior……it is trending downward.
        Now his BB rate is atrocious and I have already gave me reasoning why this will not ever reach more then a ceiling of 5/6%

      2. You didn’t answer the whole question.

        How does it benefit the Phillies? And why can’t he work on these issues in the majors? Are the Phillies making the playoffs next year? Do the Phillies have a whole squad of major league ready OFs I don’t know about?

        1. You are not going to get an answer, because there is no reason why he should be sent to AAA. Unless the Phillies sign two (2) significant Outfielders, there is nobody currently in the organization that could possibly push him to AAA at this point.

          1. It has nothing to do with finding someone better to play the outfield.

            You send him to AAA with the sole intent of making him a better player in the long run.

        2. Its much harder to make mechanical (swing) adjustments in the majors than in AAA. The pitching is worse, so you’re less likely to fall back into the bad habits that previously made you successful.

          There’s also much less pressure to succeed in AAA; pressure that might force you back to these bad habits.

          1. Thank you on both of those posts.

            Herrera starting the year in AAA takes pressure off and gives him a chance to make the adjustments in a low pressure environment.

            He will also be playing with some potential future teammates and may build a relationship with them (Williams and Crawford).

            All positive for the future.

    2. Go figure?.
      The only way Ode goes to AAA will be in May 2016, after failing miserably out of ST in April. And then they may let him try to ride out a slump
      End of discussion in my opinion.

    1. Concerning Dom Brown….arb elig next season…Scott Borus agent….all signs pointed to an exit before July od this year, but now since Domo is ticking upward in production over the last month, not so sure. If it carries for the next six weeks things can get dicey in the negotiation.

      1. Any guy that has been around this long and ticks up at the end of the season is a huge warning sign to me. Add in Borus and it is more of a reason to dump him.

        If they keep Herrera in CF next season I would move Altherr to RF and keep Asche in LF until Williams is ready.

        LF is a placeholder for Williams.

        RF is and should be wide open.

        CF is a placeholder for Quinn in my book.

        1. Keeping Asche just as a placeholder for Williams is just an illogical argument. We’ve already addressed a minimum of 3 guys who should be playing over him and that’s not even considering Dugan.

          You want Asche to play for the rest of 2015 in an effort to help you get the #1 pick? That’s a defensible stance. Moving forward with him in any way is not.

      2. They avoided arbitration with him last season … why would next year be any different? I think people get the impression that Boras negotiates the price of milk at Wawa, but I’m sure he knows which battles to pick and which to lay off from.

    2. He’s been pretty putrid – yet considerably better than Asche. And possesses more tools than Asche, has a higher ceiling.

        1. You don’t give him a long-term extension, but you can pay the guy a few million in arb dollars considering you have no viable RF in his absence.

        2. Again, where do you see anything about giving a contract? I’m just talking about the rest of this year. He’s not even arbitration eligible until 2016 – what do you think he’ll possibly be awarded based on performance?

    3. Brown has better tools. Yes, he can basically be looked at as a failed prospect at this point, but the power and arm are still there, and have surfaced in glimpses (including recently). Is it likely he turns it around? Probably not. Is it worth hanging on to him for $2.6M and giving him a chance to prove his value, when the alternative is Asche, who doesn’t have near the same ceiling and probably a similar floor? Absolutely.

      Also, there is this: Brown, for all his criticism defensively, is a much improved outfielder. His UZR this season is 1.8, which makes him about league average in RF. Asche is obviously learning as he goes, but the metrics don’t look good: -7.7 UZR. (He was below average for his career as a 3B as well).

      Simply put: Brown is probably the better player right now, and definitely has more upside. If the two of them are competing for one OF job, I would imagine Brown wins it.

      1. We all talk about better tools and higher upside but for me, after six years of failing to nail down a starting job, I am ready to cut ties.

        We have been waiting far too long on Brown and at 27 I doubt the upside will ever be realized.

        1. But is he a better corner OF than Cody Asche right now? That’s the question that needs to be asked. You don’t just cut a guy because he’s not the top prospect you expected him to be.

          1. Your comment about cutting a guy because he is not the prospect you expected him to be is very ironic when you mention Asche.

            One season in the outfield and everyone wants him gone.

            Six seasons for Brown and people want to give him one more because maybe the light will go on.

            It is not going on for Brown. His attitude in May when Amaro chose to keep him in AAA and his current play now speak volumes about Brown.

            1. I’m not saying cut Asche. I’m saying Brown should start over Asche. This is not a “one of these players must go!” situation. (Although it’s likely Asche gets traded in the offseason to a team in need of a 3B, where he has far more value).

            2. So you’re argument on keeping Asche is that Brown is not quite as bad but 2 years older?

              You’ve yet to point to anything in Asche’s track record that says he can play, only pointing out that Brown’s All Star selection was based on a small window of performance. And your argument on learning a new position is disingenuous at best as it has zero effect on his negative oWAR.

              You want to jettison them both and let Dugan play with Herrera and Alther? Fine.

            3. Brown’s career stats leave nothing to be desired. He is 27 and had 6 years to win a starting job.

              What are you looking for in upside? How much more time does Brown get to show that he cannot do the job?

              As I said before, if he gets hot at the end of the season it would send up a huge warning sign given his attitude at the start of the year.

            4. First, I’m not quite sure what attitude problems Brown exhibitied after being demoted this year. Did he refuse to play? Announce his displeasure to the media? If he did, I don’t recall it.

              You’re really showing a bias against Brown here. If he shows improvement, it is indicative of him being, what, a selfish player who only turns it on at contract time? Do you really believe that?

              Of course, the same wouldn’t be true if Asche got hot at the end of the season. In that case, it’s because he’s scrappy, right? A gamer? Blue collar?

            5. First of all, I categorically reject the “attitude” argument.

              Second of all, you have an irritating habit of constantly repeating a very very very bad argument – the incredibly silly idea that Asche’s poor offensive hitting should be given a pass because of the position switch. it’s possible, I guess, that you’re just trolling us with it; if so, by all means continue. But if you’re not trolling serious, please come up with a better argument.

              Thirdly, the simple fact is that real prospects (Brown) will (and should) get more chances than marginal prospects such as Asche. Asche – on a scouting and performance basis – was never anywhere near the prospect that Brown was. Brown’s upside was and probably still is much higher that Asche’s. Asche’s upside was at best “solid regular.” I thought he had a very good chance of reaching that upside; i was wrong. Guys with that upside … sometimes don’t get a real opportunity at all. Asche got almost 1,000 PA, which is more than most of those types of prospects get. Guys like Brown get chance after chance after chance. Maybe more of a chance than they should, but sometimes it pays off big.

              Finally … you’re kind of missing the point. If the Phillies were competitive, or if Brown was blocking someone, then he would be gone in a flash. He may be gone anyway. The point isn’t that there is such a strong case to keep Brown. The point is that the case to keep Asche is even weaker.

              Keeping a guy like Asche, on the off chance that he develops into a marginal, second division regular – is a loser’s strategy. Even the worst run franchises don’t make that sort of decision.

              Here’s a question for you. Has there ever been a prospect who:

              (1) Was not regarded as a very good prospect – i.e., never made a top 100 list.
              (2) Was given 900 major league PA.
              (3) Was below replacement level for those 900 PA. and
              (4) Went on to have any kind of meaningful major league career?

              Not many if any I would guess.

              Finally … Asche’s chance of even being a decent regular was always based upon staying at 3B. I never really understood the move to LF. He was never going to hit enough to be a regular in LF.

            6. So when do you give up on Brown?

              27 years old, six seasons, almost four years of service time, 1700 plate appearances, 53 home runs with more than half in one season.

              Maybe I am missing something but Brown has been given more than enough chances to put everything together. His attitude in May in Lehigh Valley spoke volumes about where his head is in the game.

              Will it fall into place?

              It may be a tired argument but remember the old saying that ‘Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.’

              I will always give the extra try to the player that works hard over the player that sits back because the player that works hard wants to improve whereas the player that sits back and coasts on ability will not wake up until they are cut.

            7. David…the irony of all irony…..you quoting this….’the old saying that ‘Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.’.
              Your argument reverberates along those lines.

            8. You call Brown a ‘real prospect.’

              How real after six seasons, 27 years old, 1700 plate appearances, and almost 4 years of service time?

              Brown is not in any way a prospect. None. He was been around long enough to call him a veteran.

            9. David, if you do read them, you’re not doing a very good job of responding:

              (1) You set up a false choice – it’s not Brown versus Asche fighting for one spot on the roster.
              (2) Even if it were, you STILL need to make a positive case for continuing to use Asche as a regular. I know that you TRIED to do that earlier in the thread, albeit IMO not very successfully, but now you’re just trashing Brown.

              And … I’m not even sure you’re wrong about that. But EVEN THERE you’re on weak ground in terms of the comparison – basically punting ALL the points of comparison raised by myself and others, and JUST talking about the fact that Asche has not been given quite the same chance yet that Brown has, and the “fact” that Asche, unlike Brown, is a gritty grister who he gets his uniform dirty. Ignoring the fact that Brown, despite his deficiencies, just happens to be a better ball player.

              And as for us reading YOUR comments … you don’t have to AGREE with our answers, but we’ve been making point by point responses – I don’t think there’s any “argument” that you made that we haven’t addressed. At least pretty good evidence that we’re reading your comments. Though I’m starting to wonder why. 🙂

    4. Who says he gets a pass? Right now, Altherr is the only one that deserves to be in the bigs. If he’s going to replace somebody, it’s likely that he replaces Asche over Brown.

  9. Right now, based on his career stats, I see Brown as a 4th or 5th OF. A defensive replacement. Nothing more and nothing less.

    There is no argument that Brown deserves a starting job next season when he has yet to win it on his own the previous seasons.

    27 years old with six seasons under his belt. Brown should have won a starting job by now. The fact that he cannot shows that he should be sent out to pasture for good.

      1. Not based on age and attitude.

        Brown acted like he was guaranteed a job during his time in AAA this season. He was kept down because of a lack of effort.

        If you are not showing effort in your sixth season the bulb is not going on.

        For every Bautista there are 99 failed prospects. It is a 1% chance I am willing to take.

        If Brown worked hard and it was injury based I could cut some slack but 6 seasons of slacking and not being able to win a starting job tells me he will never realize his ceiling.

            1. As a 20th round pick in 2006, compared to the success rate of alll 20th round picks….you can say the Phillies scored a victory with Dom Brown

    1. Player development isn’t linear. Some guys take years to develop. He has upside still. Power is hard to find in this game. No harm in giving him a job. Guys like Brandon Moss have put it together late in their careers and become good players. Even if he is a 4th outfielder it’s worth keeping him for depth purposes as a similar player would cost the same on the market.

      Asche? Asche has very little upside. He’s a terrible defender at every position he’s attempted and has shown no offensive ability. I’d let him play in AAA and keep him for depth purposes at 3B and LF. He never had the ceiling of a Dom Brown.

      1. To expand:
        My outfield would be

        LF: Altherr
        CF: Herrera
        RF: Brown
        4th: Frenchy
        5th: LH free agent

        With Asche in AAA. Id take a shot on a Rule 5 guy for the 5th outfield spot if possible as well.

        1. Speaking of Rule 5….looks like Phillies and Rangers got the two best out of the Rule 5 2014 draft. ….Herrera and Deshields.

        1. Ah, so I get if now – the money’s coming out of YOUR pocket. /sarcasm.

          Given the Phillies’ current payroll, and the fact that (as you correctly advocate – even a stopped clock, etc.) the team isn’t going to spend big in the FA market in 2016, Brown’s salary has absolutely zero impact on the team’s future.

            1. huh?

              David, do you seriously think that that response makes even a lick of sense? What does one thing have to do with the other? Or did they change the rules on me, and require that teams forfeit draft picks if they let their players go to arbitration?

  10. Cesar Jiminez brought up for Buchanan.
    Jared Eickhoff probably gets the call next week for a Aug 21st or 22nd start vs the Marlins in Miami.

  11. Romus I am so glad they brought up jiminez. He is like a pitching machine. we will get the first pick.

  12. with all the outfield discussion, if you could go back to last offseason, would you sign Yasmani Tomas for what Arizona gave him? power likely to develop as he gets older and he’s held his own this year-

    man, grady sizemore just crushed one- 6 homers in 80 at bats after 0 in 100 here-outhitting dom at this point

  13. “Ain’t dead yet”, Wed. Aug 12. 2015 with two (2) 2bhs…Pubication by “Asche,” the most hated player among these “informed” prognosticators and analyzers here.

    This seems to have begun a few seasons ago by those who were offering Franco as the 3rd baseman…and would consider nobody else. The dismissal of Asche has continued to this day…his second full season in MLB. There is no doubt that Franco has won the prize handily. Yet some feel compelled still to call every name except cursewords. I fail to comprehend the necessity to do that.

    Though I wish Asche could have continued his hasty and compelled rise through the minors with improvements in his game continuing. That kind of progress has stalled, but there is no reason to dismiss him entirely…except for those who seem filled with animosity. (To them: what has he ever done to yourself or yr family?)

    Though it won’t happen with the Phillies, if he were traded to a MLB team that could expend patience, where he’d play 3rd base, IMO he’s become a regular over that time. There is no time for him at 3b/LF in Philly with Altheer and Williams on the way and Herrera making a place for himself.

    We’ll see… Good luck to him!

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