The NY Road Trip

The Phillies went 3-3 last week.  They won a 3-game series from the Marlins and dropped a 3-game series to the Mets.

Those outcomes are not too bad.  They won the first two games and had a chance to sweep Miami.  They won the opener against the Mets but failed to collect that elusive series clincher.

No, the bad news is that the offense only managed 2 runs in its last 4 games.  That’s not panic button news.  But, the Phillies are a team of streaky hitters.  A continuation of this trend against the Reds might raise an alarm.


Everything below this point is just an update of last week’s playoff information and the compilation of the week’s transactions.


The Phillies’ schedule is still very encouraging.

A look ahead at the Phillies’ schedule is very encouraging.  After this weekend’s 4-game series against the Mets (we don’t play them the rest of the season), they play 22 games in seven very winnable series before 19 games in six mostly competitive series in the final 3 weeks of the season.  They’re on a pace to win more than the 85-86 games I anticipated.


At 60-48, the Phillies are firmly in third place in the division, 11.5 behind the Mets and 6.0 behind Atlanta.  Miami and Washington are effectively out of competition for anything other than positioning in the draft pool.

The East and West Divisions are pretty much locked up with both Central providing the only division race in the NL, so far.

The National League Wild Card race is probably down to a four-team race with the Central Division loser missing the playoffs.

The Phillies are a half-game behind the Padres for the second wild card berth, with one less loss and three games in hand, plus the tie-breaker advantage.


By merit of the first tie-breaker (head-to-head), the Phillies hold an advantage over  Milwaukee (4-2), St. Louis (4-3), Los Angeles (4-3), San Diego (4-3), and Colorado (5-2).

They clinched against the Pirates (4-0) with 3 to play and Washington (10-2 with 7 to play).

They are ahead of Arizona (2-1 with 3 to play) and Miami (8-5 with 6 to play).

They are tied with Atlanta (6-6) with 7 to play.

They trail New York (4-10 with 4 to play), SanFrancisco (1-2 with 3 to play), and the Cubs (0-3) with 3 to play.

They have 7 games against the Reds.

They have a 2-game series against the Blue Jays in September and close the season with 3 games in Houston.

The Phillies’ division record is 28-24.  Their record against the other NL divisions is 28-19.  Their interleague record, which doesn’t matter in tie-breakers, is 7-8.


MLB has replaced tie-breaking playoff games with a set of tie-breaking criteria.

  1. Head-to-head record
  2. Intradivision winning percentage
  3. Interdivision winning percentage
  4. Best record in the final 81 intraleague games of the season
  5. Best record in the final 82 intraleague games of the season (provided the game added is not between the tied teams), and continue one game back until the tie is broken

This gives you a place to talk about the Phillies for the week.


Here are the transactions that were reported (or uncovered) this week.

8/14/2022 – Phillies traded LHP Ricardo Sanchez to Detroit for cash
8/14/2022 – Lehigh Valley activated 2B Daniel Robertson from the 7-day IL
8/14/2022 – Lehigh Valley activated LHP Zach Warren
8/14/2022 – Reading Phils LHP Josh Hendrickson on a rehab assignment to Clearwater
8/14/2022 – Jersey Shore transferred RHP Andrew Painter to the Development List
8/13/2022 – RHP Jack Dallas assigned to FCL Phillies
8/13/2022 – C Adony Mejia assigned to Jersey Shore from FCL Phillies
8/13/2022 – Jersey Shore transferred C Andrick Nava to the Development List
8/13/2022 – Jersey Shore activated 1B Rixon Wingrove from the 7-day IL
8/13/2022 – Jersey Shore transferred RHP Mick Abel to the Development List
8/12/2022 – Lehigh Valley activated LF Dustin Peterson from the 7-day IL
8/12/2022 – Jersey Shore sent C Anthony Quirion on a rehab assignment to Clearwater
8/12/2022 – Jersey Shore sent LHP Keylan Killgore on a rehab assignment to Clearwater
8/12/2022 – Clearwater transferred RHP Buddy Hayward from the 7- to the 60-day IL
8/12/2022 – Clearwater activated RHP Cam Wynne from the 7-day IL
8/12/2022 – RHP Daniel Harper assigned to Clearwater from FCL Phillies
8/12/2022 – LHP Andrew Walling assigned to FCL Phillies
8/12/2022 – 3B Otto Kemp assigned to FCL Phillies
8/11/2022 – Lehigh Valley sent 2B Daniel Robertson on a rehab assignment to FCL Phillies
8/11/2022 – Reading activated RHP Tyler McKay from the Development List
8/11/2022 – Jersey Shore sent C Nick Matera on a rehab assignment to FCL Phillies
8/11/2022 – RHP Carlo Reyes assigned to Jersey Shore from Reading
8/11/2022 – Clearwater transferred LHP Gabriel Cotto to the Development List
8/11/2022 – Clearwater transferred RHP Eiberson Castellano to the Development List
8/11/2022 – RHP Eric Garcia assigned to FCL Phillies
8/10/2022 – Reading activated C Herbert Iser
8/10/2022 – C Herbert Iser assigned to Reading from Jersey Shore
8/10/2022 – DSL Red activated LHP Neyker Ibarra from the 10-day IL
8/10/2022 – DSL White released RHP Miguelangel Rodriguez
8/09/2022 – Lehigh Valley placed C Rafael Marchan on the 7-day IL
8/09/2022 – Lehigh Valley placed C Donny Sands on the 7-day IL
8/09/2022 – RHP Aaron Barrett retired
8/09/2022 – C Jack Conley assigned to Lehigh Valley from Reading
8/09/2022 – RHP Daniel Harper assigned to FCL Phillies
8/09/2022 – LHP Mason Ronan assigned to FCL Phillies
8/09/2022 – OF Justin Crawford assigned to FCL Phillies
8/09/2022 – SS Bryan Rincon assigned to FCL Phillies
8/09/2022 – OF Emaarion Boyd assigned to FCL Phillies
8/08/2022 – Lehigh Valley released RHP Cam Bedrosian
8/08/2022 – Lehigh Valley released LHP Scott Moss
8/08/2022 – CF Simon Muzziotti assigned to Lehigh Valley from Reading
8/08/2022 – Reading activated SS Madison Stokes from the 60-day IL
8/08/2022 – Reading released CF Hunter Markwardt
8/08/2022 – 3B McCarthy Tatum activated from 60-day IL and assigned to Reading from Jersey Shore
8/08/2022 – RHP Orion Kerkering assigned to FCL Phillies
8/08/2022 – RHP Alex Rao assigned to FCL Phillies
8/08/2022 – RHP Josh Bortka assigned to FCL Phillies
8/08/2022 – OF Ezra Farmer assigned to FCL Phillies
8/07/2022 – Lehigh Valley transferred LHP Zach Warren to the Development List
8/06/2022 – Phillies released RHP Jeurys Familia

330 thoughts on “The NY Road Trip

  1. I thought for sure when we got that exciting win Friday night we would get one of the next two at least.

    I did not see yesterday’s game but I know Wheeler was on the hill.

    Again hard to measure where this team is when the MVP is out of the LU as well as its leading HR guy.

  2. The 3 loses were all shutouts. Also 2 of the losses were on “getaway days”. I don’t have the stats but in my recollection, we have a terrible record on last games of a series on the road, maybe even on the last game of a homestand. Thoughts?

    1. Cannot tell you about getaway game records, but can tell you…..Tuesdays are the worst day of the week for them….4-14
      Reds tomorrow may be difficult.

  3. During yesterday’s game, Matt Gelb reported the Pain and Abel promotions on twitter. Crazy exciting times!
    The Phillies three-headed pitching prospect monster reminds me a lot of the one the Pirates had about a decade ago. In 2010, the Pirates drafted Jameson Taillon in the first round. In 2011, they picked Gerrit Cole with the first pick, and then took Tyler Glassnow in the fifth round of that same draft. Those three RHPs were much ballyhood, top 100 prospects. The resemblance is sort of uncanny. Mick Abel was taken in the first round in 2020. The very next year, the Phils picked Andrew Painter in round one, and Griff McGarry in round five.
    If there is a lesson to be learned, it is “anything can happen”. Taillon, Cole, and Glasnow have all had various degrees of success. Unfortunately for Pittsburgh, most of that success has come with other organizations. Lesson #2: Do Not pass on the opportunity to sign a big time FA pitcher this winter. In other words … Jacob deGrom or Justin Verlander (who especially makes sense for DD & the Phillies) or Carlos Rodon or Nathan Eovaldi or Charlie Morton are more important than Trea Turner. If this weekend’s series showed anything, it’s that pitching still rules the day (especially in the postseason).

      1. Ha. No. I read that somewhere a couple of weeks ago.. Not sure where. Probably social media.

    1. I will find hard to believe that Verlander or Morton will not return to their respective teams.

      The money for deGrom is going to be insane. I don’t think the Phillies will be in on this.

      Rodon will clearly want as many years as he can get. With his injury issues, I don’t want to give him 4 years. 3 years, $75M with a team option is as high as I will go.

      Eovaldi makes sense, but he’s a 4/5 pitcher. His 2021 season looks like an outlier. The question is, do you want Eovaldi or Zach Eflin?

    2. Hinkie mentioned the Pirates drafting Gerrit Cole, Tyler Glassnow & Tallion. All 3 were traded here is what they got:

      For Cole:
      -Colin Moran IF, (29), hit around .250, elected FA now with Cinc.
      -Jason Martin (26), LF hitting .206 with TX after electing FA
      -Michael Feliz RHP (29) put on waivers
      -Joe Musgrove, traded in 3 team trade later receiving:
      -Endy Rodriguez, C, (22) hitting .308 AA
      -David Bednar middle reliever (28) with 2.78 ERA
      -Hudson Head, CF (21), hitting .230 at high A
      -Drake Fellows, RHP, (24) injured
      -Omar Cruz LHP, (23), 5.51 ERA in AA.

      For Tallion:
      -Roaney Contreras, RHP (22), 3-2-3.78 starter for Pirates
      -Maikel Escotto SS (20) hitting .250 in low minors
      -Canaan Smith LF (23), 1-19-.277 in AAA
      -Miguel Yajure RHP, (24), 2 years in MLB over 8 ERA in limited action

      Glassnow & Meadows to TB for Chris Archer (33) who went 3-9-5.19 in 1-year with Pittsburgh & elected FA

      Not much in return.

      1. Moral of the Story….also tack on future considerations….Competitive Balance Picks if it is small market teams wanting your superstar pitcher, or more international funny money

        1. Another moral of the story is that prospects bust. ALL teams have had their share of trading veterans for prospects and the prospects not panning out. It’s not only the Phillies. And guess what, it’ll happen again in the future for ALL teams. That’s just the way it is.

    3. Do IP really matter for minor leaguers? Like, do they have them throw simulated innings after their start is over. I could actually see Painter being on the 25 first out of the big 3 starting at the beginning of next year if they think his arm can handle it.

      Verlander would be a dream to come here. Him being a mentor to Painter would be invaluable. They seem to be identical as far as progression and what Painter could be. I’m not sure how their stuff compares. I’d be OK with either Verlander or Turner coming to the Phils. Maybe Verlander would sign with the Phils? He grew up in Virginia.

      DeGroms club option is for 2024.

      1. Verlander also has a history with Dave Dombrowski. And deGrom can/will opt out after this season.

    4. While the Phillies will do their due diligence and check in on the free agent pitchers listed, I don’t believe they’ll sign any of them. The only way deGrom doesn’t return to the Mets is because he wants to live and play somewhere else, which I don’t believe is the case. If he remains healthy and they make a deep run in the playoffs, the Mets will outspend everyone to retain him.

      I don’t see Verlander pitching anywhere besides one of the teams with the best chance to win it all next year – Astros/Braves/Dodgers/Mets/Yankees. At this point in his career, why wouldn’t he?

      I don’t think they’ll get in a bidding war for Rodon given his health history and I don’t think they’ll overpay for Eovaldi. I think Morton will stay South, as location is a bigger deal to him as he gets older. He’s also showing some decline, relative to his past few years.

      I don’t think the Phillies will spend big on #4 and #5 starters next year, given what they have and their options to sign cheaper free agents. For example, I think there’s a chance they’ll re-sign Gibson and he’ll be cheaper than Eovaldi or Morton. You can argue he’s been better than both this year.

      In my opinion, Trea Turner has been the Phillies plan all along and that’s who they’re signing this offseason. They stayed out of the SS market last year with the hope that big spending clubs will sign their guys and there wouldn’t be as many around this year to bid on Turner. It was a partial success, but there are still some clubs that will compete for him, as well as Bogaerts, Correa, and Swanson. I think Bogaerts is the backup plan.

      1. Howard……the only wrench in the Turner endeavor will be if Freidman decides to go all in to bring him back. I do think he has Lux as the guy to take over shortstop, with Busch going to 2B….. but one can never under-estimate what the Dodgers will do.
        As for a back-up, if that should happen, or if Turner decides to go to another team…..IMO it is between Bogaerts and Swanson….I do not see the Phillies going 8 years with Correa, since that is the length he wanted last off-season.

        1. Turner wants to play on the east coast, Harper is campaigning for him, and Middleton doesnt mind spending money so it all makes sense. I’m just saying I’d rather this club be major players in the arms race. I understand the risks involved with FA pitchers, but IMO another top SP would provide a greater impact than Trea Turner (who BTW is probably going to command an 8 year deal).

          1. Time will tell on whom they sign. It will require an eight year contract, at minimum, for Turner. I’m on the other side of the coin and believe Turner will provide more overall value because he’ll change the entire complexion of the club. But our opinions don’t matter and we’re not signing the checks.

            I think the whole Harper wanting him is overplayed, much like it was for Realmuto. Turner is a great player and I believe the club has made him a priority.

            1. From the Bleacher Report MLB Mill:
              “USA Today’s Bob Nightengale, “several executives are predicting” Bogaerts signing with the Chicago Cubs, where former Red Sox front office executive Jed Hoyer is currently the president of baseball operations. While on a recent slump for the past week, Bogaerts is still hitting .306 with an .823 OPS. He ranks fourth in WAR and second in wRC+ among qualified shortstops.

              Reports indicate Turner prefers a return to the East Coast. His former Washington Nationals teammate Bryce Harper is already recruiting him to the Philadelphia Phillies, who showed their willingness to surround the two-time NL MVP with talent by spending heavily on Kyle Schwarber and Nick Castellanos last offseason. The Dodgers’ top performers this year are players they either signed or traded for in the past three years: Freddie Freeman, Mookie Betts and Turner are the top three in WAR on the team. It’s not out of the question for the Dodgers to pay Turner, but it will be competitive for the market’s top shortstop”

        2. While I think the Dodgers will pursue Turner and perhaps seriously, it’s not up to Friedman. Because if all things are equal in terms of contract, we’ll truly see whether or not Turner wants to play on the East Coast as has been reported. The Dodgers have really gone to the contract stratosphere once and that was for Betts, so unless they’re prepared to do the same for Turner, I don’t think they’ll re-sign him. They also have other mouths to feed.

          It’s my understanding that Swanson is the Dodgers fallback option. The musical chair game at SS is going to be very interesting this offseason. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Orioles or Cubs land Correa. I don’t see the Phillies signing Correa unless no market develops for him, much like last year, and they lose out on Turner and Bogaerts. I don’t think Swanson is an option unless the Phillies are the highest bidder by a good distance.

          1. I prefer Swanson…IMO he comes with a lower AAV and shorter length than Turner, Correa or Bogaerts……he is a little younger than Turner and Bogaerts, plus does not help the Braves fortunes..

            1. I think Swanson prefers to stay in ATL and his second choice is LAD if they don’t re-sign Turner. As noted above, I don’t think he’s coming to Philadelphia unless they massively overpay him relative to the market and I don’t see that happening. I think in the end he’ll stay in Atlanta. He loves it there, they have a great thing going, and will continue to do so for years.

              Swanson is a very good player and still improving but he can’t do some of the things Turner can do and that’s why they’ll be paid differently.

              Per your quote above, I would take Bob Nightengale with a very large grain of salt.

            2. Yeah I have got that vibe that Swanson likes Atlanta.and may prefer to stay.
              Though JP has already let go of their future Hall of Fame guy Freeman , so who is to say he does not want to step up and pay Swanson.
              JP likes to lock in his position players…Acuna/Albies/Riley….so his track record leans letting Swanson test the market.
              He could have locked him in last off-season once Freddie signed with the Dodgers, but chose to let him finish out his walk-year..

            3. @Howard, the Braves have a history of not getting into bidding wars and letting players walk into FA. Most of their long term signings are done before they hit FA. Swanson is going to get paid. Since this is his first crack at FA, he’s going to go where the money is. Swanson will be coming off a near 5 WAR season. Somebody is going to give him 5 years, $125M minimum.

            4. Guru, I’m well aware of the Braves signing history and what Swanson will get in the open market. Let’s see what the Braves do or don’t offer him, shall we? I know people in their organization that are very fond of him.

              Romus, I believe the reason the Braves didn’t attempt to re-sign Swanson this past offseason was because Freeman and Swanson shared the same agent, or at least they did until Freeman fired him. There was a lot going on and it would have been very awkward to get something done at that time. I believe Swanson’s agent will bend over backwards to work with the Braves to get something done if it makes sense for both sides, as he was accused of not doing so for Freeman.

            5. Howard…yes I remember Freeman’s issue with Casey Close, of Excel, however Swanson has still remained a client of Excel……then again, Close may not be his lead agent , if he is still with Excel at all.
              Have to wait approx 90 days now, to see what happens.

  4. I have been following the Phillies minor leagues closely for 20+ years and I can’t recall a bigger gap between the quality of pitching prospects and the quality of hitting prospects.

    I think that we have several high impact pitchers in our system right now. Like real elite pitchers. We also have some really good bull pen arms. Outside of Crawford (imo he is too early to tell), I don’t think that we have one impact position player in our system. I am extremely down on our position prospects. Rojas has great tools, but man is his bat raw. I really think his bat is several years away. I don’t see anything to get excited about with any of the other hitters.

    1. Then you are not looking at the hitting prospects well enough. Have you not seen Hao Yu Lee, who is only 19 and seems to have a really good feel at the plate and he is hitting .300 on the season overall? There is also a young SS that is 17 named Nikau Pouaka- Grego who also seems to have a good feel at such a young age and is doing even better than Crawford hitting .293 in FCL with 2 Hrs. Then there is Marcus Lee Sang who is 21, who has developed into a really good prospect this year and is hitting .310 at high A and seems to have 5 tools going. Muzziotti is now at triple A and is batting .333 there and is staring to develop some pop. There is also Carlos De la Cruz who is 22 and 6’7″ who has incredible power but didn’t really hit for average until this year and now he is at Double A developing. I know Painter and Mccary has been pretty dominant and Abel has flashed some but the disparity in talent isn’t that wide other than Painter’s near phenom like status. Hao Yu Lee might be as big of a hitting prospect as Painter right now if he didn’t get injured earlier in the season.

      1. Yeah, I am looking at those guys when I said what I said. If you think small sample stats in the FCL means something, then I guess we just disagree on how to judge a prospect.

        1. You realize your opinion about our pitching is watching Painter mow through A then high A. Hao Yu Lee dominated A and is also 19. He just didn’t get the chance to go up with Painter because he got hurt. Also, Marcus Lee Sang isn’t in FCL now and is doing as well as a hitter at high A as Abel did as a pitcher there. I guess you see what you want but it is skewed by the near phenom that Painter is. Look at Hao Yu Lee again for more balance.

          1. 1. You and I have a different definition of “dominated A ball” if you think Hao Yu Lee’s .832 OPS (with a .353 BABIP) is “dominating”. Do I think that Hao is a prospect? Yes. Do I think that he looks like a high impact prospect? No.

            2. Painter on the other hand has truly dominated both Low A (where Hao is now) and High A. His K%, BB% and WHIP are otherworldly. off the charts elite.

            Suggesting that Painter’s performance is similar to Hao’s .832 OPS is laughable. Hao’s stats are good, not great. Hao also doesn’t have anywhere close to the physical presence of Painter. Comparing the two prospects is silly.

            1. I wasn’t comparing the players. I was comparing what you termed a large disparity between the hitters and pitchers. Andrew Painter is arguably the best pitching prospect EVER in the Phillies organization. To use him in your assessment to evaluate the “disparity” between pitching prospects and hitting prospects is what I find flawed. Most statistican would remove the outlier to have a more “fair” assessment. However.. you are entitled to you opinion.

            2. Well, my assessment is based on more than just low A stats. The scouting reports are exceptional. The stuff is elite. His body and athleticism is truly an outlier. So there is more to it than a babip driven batting line from low A.

      2. As for Muzziotti, the Phillies just traded their top position prospect (Logan O’Hoppe) for a defense first Centerfielder. That tells you all that you need to know about how they grade Simon as a prospect. If they felt like he could play CF at the major league level, they would not have dealt O’Hoppe for Marsh.

        1. I can’t account for bad trades nor use them to validate what I think of the team’s opinion on players. Looking at Marsh’s stats in the minors, I have no idea how they traded O’hoppe for him. I would have just went with Matt Vierling but I guess you are talking about the nuances defensively. I am more talking about total prospects

          1. Well, Dave Dombrowski is a hall of fame GM. So maybe he knows a thing or two about grading a player’s ability to perform at the MLB level?

            1. again.. you are using false equivalences. First… even a HOF GM can make mistakes but that isn’t the point. Your statement was that we traded for Brandon Marsh because the team didn’t think highly of Muzziotti is a silly assumption. It is likely as untrue as it is true. YOU don’t know what they think of Muzziotti, as he was in AA coming off injury and the team wanted to make a move to improve their defensese this season. That doesn’t mean that they do or do not think Mizziotti have the abliity to perform at the MLB level in the future. Marsh was a former top prospect already in MLB and was available so the GM chose to upgrade now

            2. Muzziotti is 23 and already has been up to the majors. So he is already on the 40 man roster. If they felt like he was a good MLB CF they would have called him up instead of trading their top position prospect. That’s basic logic.

              I always find it funny when anonymous posters thinks that they are smarter than proven GMs. Sixer fans do that with Morey too and it makes me laugh.

              So Arron, if you think that you understand what makes a great CF more than DD, then I guess we can just agree to disagree. If you think that the O’Hoppe for Marsh trade doesn’t show you what the org thinks of Muzziotti, then we can just agree to disagree.

            3. Again.. you are saying stuff I didn’t say and throwing out false statements to misrepresent what I stated. I don’t think I know more than the GM regarding baseball. I never said that I also didn’t say I know more about what “makes a great CF” but it seems you like putting words into people’s mouth. You made the assumption that the trade for Marsh is an indictment of of Muzziotti as a players. Although it can be true, it can also be false and you are making assumptions and using it as the basis for your argument. Dombrowski could have simply have wanted to upgrade the position defensively now and see Marsh as the better option this year. I doesn’t mean he doesn’t believe that Muzziotti doesn’t have talent or the ability to play in the majors. You are trying to speak for Dombroski and stated:

              “If they felt like he was a good MLB CF they would have called him up instead of trading their top position prospect. That’s basic logic”

              Maybe they don’t feel he is ready right now or that Marsh represents an even greater upgrade to the position. That doesn’t mean they think he could be a “good MLB CF”. Stop putting words in him mouth and stating it as fact.

              The most accurate and logical thing you said today, I actual agree with: That is, lets “agree to just disagree” and move on.

            4. You bounce around so much I don’t really know what your point is.

              1. If DD just wanted a 1 year rental, he wouldn’t have traded O’Hoppe for Marsh. Marsh is not a rental. He is a multi-year bet on a young player. When DD likes a young player that isn’t ready for this year, then he gets a rental. That’s his history.

              2. You seemed to have a problem with my initial comment that the gap between quality pitching prospects and hitting prospects is enormous. your counter argument was players in rookie ball and one player 60 games played in low A with an .830 OPS. I don’t find that to be a strong counter argument. But we can agree to disagree.

            5. There you go again putting words into my mouth. Who said anything about a one year rental? He might have seen him as an upgrade or better option than Muzziotti now and for the future. That still doesn’t mean that he doesn’t think Muzziotti isn’t a MLB caliber player. GM improve their teams all the time regardless of what they think they have in the minors. The Phil might add elite starting pitching this off season and it won’t mean they don’t believe in Painter.

              As far as your second point…”your counter argument was players in rookie ball and one player 60 games played in low A with an .830 OPS. I don’t find that to be a strong counter argument”. I see the problem is your focus and comprehension skills. Let me ask you this.. try to follow along, did I ONLY mention one player that …”played in low A”? Why are you arguing if you lack the ability to follow the conversation and be truthful? You keep arguing points I didn’t make and saying I said inaccurate things that are counter to the things I said right there in black and white that you can simply re-read. Instead you throw out inaccuracies and false statements and arguing point that are not made. Just move along because you seem to lack the ability to understand the argument anyway.

            6. First I’ll say that I agree that there’s an absolute CHASM of difference between Painter and any of our hitting prospects.

              That being said, it is absolutely possible DD considers Muzziotti to be a future starting CF, and still make the trade for Marsh.

              All it means is that they think they can fix Marsh’s swing. Because if they can, they’ll unlock a form top-50 prospect in baseball, likely giving them a multiple-time all star.

              In addition, having two legitimate starting center fielders is never an issue. One can be a backup, which we desperately need as recent events have proven. Or you can trade one. They’re both controllable, so if Simon’s improvements continue and/or Marsh makes effective changes to his swing/approach, then we’ve got a headliner piece in a trade for a controllable, say, 2B.

            7. Arron – I will ignore your juvenile personal attacks and focus on the point.

              You mentioned 5 position prospects in rebuttal to my comment that there is a huge gap between our position prospects and are:
              1. Nikau Pouaka- Grego – who isn’t even in A ball
              2. Crawford – who is in rookie ball, and I literally wrote, to exclude him because he is so new
              3. Marcus Lee Sang – who has 10 games in A+, and good, not great stats
              4. Carlos De la Cruz – who had a 31% K rate as a 22 year old in A+.
              5. Muzziotti – whom I directly responded to.

              If you think that those prospects are remotely comparable to our pitching prospects of Painter, Abel, McGarry, Miller then I really question your prospect judgement.

              As for Muzziotti and Marsh trade, I just simply don’t think that you understand how GMs work. GMs view top prospects as assets. You don’t trade a valuable asset for a player to take a position and block another top prospect. Our corner OF are more than taken for the next 5 years. So the only open spot is CF. If DD thinks that he has a great CF prospect in AAA (who is already on the 40 man), and he only needs help this year, then DD would acquire a rental for a much lesser prospect than O’Hoppe. You don’t shoot one of your best bullets on a CF unless you intend to keep him long term at that position.

              Muzziotti’s AAA batting average that you quoted is based on a 5 game sample size. Suggesting that that sample is indicative of anything on his prospect status is silly. Muzziotti is a 4th OF at best. Maybe a 5th OF. He might grind out a nice career sticking around for a while. But he is not an impact position player, which was my first point.

            8. @Vlagain Your response this time was very good as you actually addressed the points raised in our discussion even if I don’t completely agree with them. The assessment you have regarding the hitting prospects isn’t very positive (but I didn’t expect that given your initial statement) but you should put it in context.

              IMO, the main reason you believe there is a great disparity is because of Painter and you over weighting the “pitching prospects” with his individual ability. He has been phenomenal but a huge outlier to include if you want to make a “fair” comparison. If you took Painter out of the conversation, is there really this HUGE disparity between Abel (over 4.00 ERA, MCGarry (3.48) ,Miller (age and injury history) and the hitters Lee, Lee Sang, De La Cruz, Muzziotti, Nikau Pouaka- Grego etc? Both groups have flaws we can nitpick and perhaps the pitching is stronger, but is there really a huge disparity in talent without Painter? I am not going to disparage our young pitchers as you did to the hitters because these are all young professional and they are still growing and getting better and are not perfect. You just seem to nitpick at the hitters but didn’t do that with the pitcher to make your point. You looked beyond the flaws to see the potential in the pitchers (with Abel in particular) but didn’t do that with the hitters

              As far as your argument about Muzziotti, he has been a good hitter in the system beyond the 5 games I quoted and so you shouldn’t dismiss him so quickly. I agree with Dan K in that they can still see Muzziotti as a good prospect with potential and still make the deal for Marsh who was a former top 50 prospect, who is still very young and may have a much higher ceiling. That trade is likely more to do with improving the roster this year (and future) and obtaining a high ceiling prospect that is further along, than its a statement on Muzziotti.

              As a side note.. you should realize that all these young men are chasing their dreams and are all talented and are all still growing. To dismiss Muzziotti and set his limit “to a 4th outfielder” is insulting to work these young guys put in and the accomplishments they have already achieved. I don’t know if you are fully developed in your field or if you are still growing and getting better as a professional but your limits are yours to set. Be a little more understanding and afford them the same courtesy

            9. Arron – You make a lot of wrong assumptions about what other people mean, you don’t ask for clarification and then you insult them. If you wanted clarification on why I feel the way that I feel about our hitting prospects, just ask. Don’t wrongly accuse me of not looking at prospects closely and then insult me when I show how silly your comment is.

              As for being critical of a prospect’s MLB potential, I have said this several times and I will say it again. This is a blog where we objectively discuss the MLB possibility of Phillies prospects. The bar to be a high impact MLB player is extremely high. If a prospect or his parents don’t want to hear constructive, fact based concerns about his ability to do something extremely rare and hard to do, then they should not read sports blog comments. I Never, EVER insult a player. I never talk about them as a person unless it is positive. I use my two decades of experience reading scouting reports, looking at minor league stats and form an opinion. I am wrong sometimes. But I am right a lot. Don’t tell me what I can and can’t say here. If you don’t like it, then take Jim’s advice and leave or read quietly.

          2. Brandon Marsh is a former top 50 prospect who has a career minor league OPS of .811. Add that to his defense and he’s oozing potential. HIs offense has obviously not translated at the ML level, but his ceiling is there. Do I think the Phillies overpaid for Marsh? Yes, but not by that much. You need to give talent to get talent.

            Matt Vierling is 1 year older than Marsh with negative career dWar at the ML level. There’s no comparision here.

            1. If Moniak could have just hit 245-255 against righthanders only with an occasional homer thrown in they would not have felt the need to trade O’Hoppe for Marsh. They then could have put Vierling in there against lefties. But he couldn’t even do that. Still hate the O’Hoppe and Brown trades.

            2. You do realize most of Brandon Marsh OPS comes from what he did in rookie ball as an 18 year old and the 24 games he played in AAA, right?
              Second, I am not comparing Vierling defense to Marsh.. There is no comparison there. However.. there is a comparison of them as hitters.

            3. @Arron, Marsh had a .811 OPS as a 21 year old at AA. At age 21, Vierling was at low-A, 2 levels down.

              Marsh’s ceiling is high, that’s why he was ranked. And that’s why the Phillies traded for him. Yes, their hitting numbers are very comparable at the ML level. But you’re betting that Marsh will get better with the bat. If Marsh was already a finished product, then Marsh’s value would be sky high and the Angels would never have let him go for O’Hoppe.

    2. V1 – you’re not imagining this. The gap between our hitting and pitching prospects is extremely large and became larger once O’Hoppe (our best position prospect) was traded. And, because we have so few good hitting prospects, the ones we do have are generally overvalued. For example, people here seem to be assuming that Rojas will compete for an outfielder job in 2024. Really? I know his tools are good, but he’s got a long way to go.

      1. I do not worry about the position players in the system right now at AA or above levels……the Phillies for the next 2/3 years are locked into almost all their positions with LTCs (Harper/JTR/Schwarber,Castellanos) or younger players (Stott and Bohm)…….maybe Hoskins at 1B will be moving on if not this off-season, then after 2023 if Boras does not get to re-sign him here at their liking.
        And then if hey get a shortstop in free agency , there is another locked -in LTC.
        The position players in A ball are the ones that need to develop over the next 2/3 years.
        Though early on for them, some appear to show potential to become very good MLB players.

      2. I really don’t think that my point was controversial. of course our pitching prospects are way ahead of our hitting prospects. it’s not close.

    3. Crawford, Boyd, Lee, NPG, Perez, Bergolla and I guess Rojas look like our best chances of impactful bats. Unfortunately most of them are extremely far away and just as likely to fall flat in Hi-A as they are to hit a top 100 prospect list.

      Agree that there’s a huge gap between hitters and pitchers but that’s mostly due to 3 guys, two of whom are recent 1st rounders. The system’s just not very good overall aside from them.

  5. According to Fangraphs:
    Phillies…
    Hitting:
    …16th…fWAR @ 13.5
    …13th…wRC+ @ 102
    Fielding:
    …26th with DRS of negative 21
    Pitching:
    Starters…2nd to Houston @ fWAR 12.5
    Relievers….8th @ fWAR 3.9
    ..hopefully Marsh tightens up CF….to date he has a DRS of positive 5.
    Stott looks like he will also be a positive DRS player.

      1. Well that did bring him up to negative 11 from negative 13….that is a positive going in the right direction.
        Braves’ Riley is a also a negative….-3

  6. Who said, “Grow the Arms, Buy the Bats? I’ve always felt that is a horse*/#$ philosophy. Agree, Rojas is going to take some seasoning.

    I don’t think our purchase of bats has been all that great when you look at the whole year to date scenario.

    We “K” too much of the time, 36 in the last 3 games. That is an average of 12 per game or look at it as 4 totally unproductive innings per game where absolutely nothing happened.

      1. Romus – don’t ruin a good story with facts… Skeet’s 3 game sample size is more than enough to discredit the philosophy of drafting pitchers with high draft picks and adding high impact bats via trades/FA. Harper, Realmuto, Schwarber, Segura be damned.

        1. Harper and Realmuto were good acquisitions. Schwarber, meh, Segura was a trade (Santana & Crawford) not an acquisition. Surprised you didn’t mention Castellanos. The thing about stats, we are in the middle of the pack 14 teams are better than us and 15 are worse than us. Makes us average in K’s, I feel considerably better now. However, don’t lament the disparity between hitting and pitching if you are spending all your top picks for pitchers because that will be disappointing to you when you look for position players and there are none.

  7. Corey Knebel to the 15 IL, Coonrod was activated off the 60 and joined the team, Andrew Vasquez was DFAd.

  8. I totally expect us to chase Turner hard. Don’t know if we’ll get him but we’ll try. I also expect them to try to bring back Gibson or Thor on a one or two year deal plus sign a 4A type pitcher to compete with McGarry and Falter. I think DD wants to allow for the possibility that one of the three is ready but not locking them out.

  9. Feels like 2007 .. which is good. The Phillies, imo, are still ascending . I would not feel this way if:
    1- DD didn’t shake Middleton’s wallet until every penny felt out during this past offseason.
    2- The success of Painter, Abel, & McGarry coupled with Wheeler, Nola, and Ranger

    I’m looking forward to getting Bryce back in the lineup, with Schwarber taking …

    I hate losing O’hoppe, I really do, I also hated losing Moniak but before you throw stones .. I get it Marsh has potential. And defensively it’s now. Even still it’s hard now to be excited where this team is …

    I said it before the season but DD needs 1 more off-season and 1 more trade deadline to get this team in the top 4 of baseball. Wheeler, Nola, Painter, Ranger, Abel … bullpen of Robertson, Sir A and … McGarry? I’ll talk those odds with this offense & defensive replacements

    Here is to good health

    1. Marsh makes it look real easy out there in CF….hope he is able to match or come close to his minor league metrics.
      Though , can do without the bad haircut John Wick look out there.

      1. LOL. Romus. John Wick looks a little more kept tha Brandon Marsh. And I’m not sure I’ve ever seen Wick in anything other than a suit. Marsh gives off Charlie Blackmon vibes for me.
        Also … if Brandon Marsh is even one-tenth as good at his job as John Wick is at his, Marsh will find himself on the Phillies Wall Of Fame. 😃😆🤣. But I do like the John Wick reference. It’s almost as good as the Skeeter with the heater salute you posted earlier. Great work by you today!

      2. If Marsh could get halfway back to his Minor League stats he would be considered a good CF. BA 238 ML / 288 Mil OBP 298 ML / 371 Mil OPS 649 ML / 811 Mil. But the most telling stats are his BB/K rates have soared in wrong directions in majors. If we see that reverse then we should see his offense improve greatly. IDK if coaches in majors have messed with what was working with him before in minors but they need to take a step back and look at some old films to see if there is a big change or not. (*note pitchers in majors are much better and maybe he has not caught up to them)

        1. Whether it was the Angels’ doing or his own, it appears March did try to put more lift into swing, as he did have 10 HRs in the two seasons in the majors with the Angels. .
          But 10 HRs with over 550 PAs is not conducive to contributing to a high ISO. He may be more of slap guy than a pull and lift player.
          With his speed a gap hitter can leg out quite a few doubles with triples mixed in there also.

  10. If FO guys got credit for wins, Dave Dombrowski would have collected maybe 2.5 WAR tonight. Syndergaard, Sosa, Robertson, and Marsh were all key contributors.
    The more I see Edmundo Sosa, the more he reminds me of Isiah Kiner-Falefa. I mentioned him numerous times last winter as a guy who could help out here (NYYs ended up trading for him). Sosa, like IKF, is limited offensively, but gives you GG caliber defense at both SS & 3B.

    1. Edmundo Sosa is still only 26. Perhaps he needed a change of scenery? Either way, not sure how the Phillies will give him more playing time now, or next season. With his glove, we need to see if his bat can play.

  11. Carlos Carrasco, who was on schedule to face the Phillies this weekend, left early grabbing his side. He definitely won’t be making that start vs the Phillies. If it’s an oblique, his season is more or less over.

  12. How crazy is this, the Mets got blown out by the Braves with ex-Phillies farmhand Carlos Carrasco leaving early with an injury. Ex-Phillie Joely Rodriguez was next with 1 earned run. Ex-Phillie Adonis Medina then threw 50 pitches to get 4 outs and gave up 6 runs (5 earned). Givens comes in and gives up 3 earned. The game ends with ex-Phillie Darin Ruf throwing 2(!) innings and gives up no runs. Mets lose 13-1.

  13. Regarding the CF/DD discussion.

    The Phillies position on their CFs was clear when Manager Joe Girardi stated that the Phillies did not see Mickey Moniak as a centerfielder. (At the time, Moniak was playing predominantly CF for the IronPigs. He also had amassed over 3500 minor league innings in CF. He had accumulated under 600 innings at the corner outfield positions.) That declaration was probably a surprise to player development.

    DD stated less than a year ago that he did not see a CF option in the organization.

    Then, after their inability to secure any of the CFs they coveted during the offseason, they settled for an unpopular FA signing of Odubel Herrera.

    Later, after Moniak won the left-handed side of the CF platoon and got hurt, they brought Simon Muzziotti up until FA Roman Quinn was signed and ready until Herrera was healthy.

    So, that’s 4 left-handed CF and one right-handed CF. That explains why the Phillies continued their search for a full-time CF.

    Trading for Brandon Marsh at the high cost of Logan O’Hoppe is an indictment of the Phillies’ CF depth (or at least the Phillies’ opinion of that depth). If that doesn’t provide insight into how the Phillies regarded Muzziotti (among others), I don’t know what will.

      1. Ditto. I think the Phillies really did not want to trade O’Hoppe and wouldn’t have if they thought any of their current minor leaguers could step in, do a credible job and grow to become a starter. If they can turn Marsh into a credible, 3 WAR centerfielder, it will be a perfectly fine trade so long as O’Hoppe does not become a big star (which is more than possible).

        1. Logan is crushing it right now. I am a huge Logan fan so I am happy to see it. I want him to become a star. I also want Marsh to become a star. Would be a great win-win deal.

    1. It can certainly be an indictment of the older outfielder prospects as center fielders but not of the prospects themselves. They could still see them as MLB players but not strong enough defensively to play center field. The move to get a young defensive CF in Marsh says that they don’t believe they have a “near term” solution at CF in house that will be ready soon. That doesn’t mean that a player like Rojas (who is maybe 2-3 years away) or someone else in the system can’t be that guy. Marsh can work out or not and teams are ever changing.

  14. Arron,

    I find you tiring. If you can’t take people questioning or criticizing your assumptions, then you shouldn’t post here.

    And, if you are going to resort to insults, you won’t be permitted to post here.

    1. I didn’t see this post until after I posted my message. I didn’t intend to “insult anyone” but was simply pointing out that I was repeatedly misquoted when my messages were there. This will be my last post here..

  15. All you new people commenting here,

    This is a very baseball-savvy environment. You can’t expect to post “back-of-the-baseball-card” stats and expect them to hold up under scrutiny. You may want to do a little research before commenting. Otherwise, don’t be surprised if you get pushback on some comments. If you can’t take it, maybe just read until you can enter the conversation better prepared. And, don’t resort to insults.

    1. Mr. Peyton, this comment by you is why this site while informational also caters to your existing base and has not grown much. Arron might have made some questionable remarks but so did V1 and you did not rebuke him. DMAR said it well when he said you can be both right and wrong in the same post. Your site needs to be more understanding , welcoming and flexible. Just my two cents worth.

  16. Sosa and Munoz….both with prior St Louis ties, look to be very good pick-ups.
    Both had above average minor league metrics with good gloves and just were never given any extended opportunities at the MLB level. Hopefully they can accept their versatility roles with the Phillies when called upon.
    Munoz found that hard with the Cardinals two years ago and bolted out of spring training…so he may wish to prove himself at LHV, and then try to hook on with another team in 2023.

  17. My only advice to old and new alike is to be careful not to conflate an argument.

    Its becoming severely cliche these days but yes two things can be true at the same time.

  18. Loved the W, and Sosa was just terrific at the plate and in the field. Both defensive plays were highlight reel worthy. Question why Thor went out for the 8th? Was brought here to give us 6, so said DD, and we got a bonus inning with the 7th. If I am nitpicking, I apologize, but it didn’t make sense to me to have him start the 8th. And, Bryson Stott is paying great baseball. Good SP, great BP work, tremendous D, and clutch hits. Loved the W!

    1. Matt going into last night I only see 1 off day in the next 17 days…

      I think Thompson will take every inning and every pitch he can get out of his starters to manage through that.

      1. DMAR…and with Knebel done now, and with an unknown- what- to -expect from Coonrod up, it makes things that much more tighter for him.

    1. Thor only threw 71 pitches through 7 innings. He”earned” tonight and in his career the right to go forward, especially against a lesser lineup like the Reds.
      Stott is hitting .344 since 7/10.
      Last 4 games he is 8-18 in the lead-off spot, .444. Also 3 of those games were against top notch pitching for the Mets.

  19. matt13 – maybe it was Thor’s pitch count ? All told he threw 77 pitches with 61 being strikes – that was the highest % of strikes to pitches he has ever thrown.
    I don’t know how many he threw in the 8th inning ?

  20. Actually he threw 6 pitches in the 8th – he had a 3-2 count when Fraley hit the hr to make it a one run game. So going into the 8th he had only thrown 71.

  21. Long time reader, first time poster. This is a great site and I appreciate all the information. While I’m enjoying this year and have hope we can finally make it back to the playoffs I’m always looking into the future. I think the best way the Phillies can add to their lineup and increase the flexibility is to find a willing trade partner for Rhys Hoskins in the offseason.

    He should have some decent value, especially if he is packaged with another reasonable prospect. This would open up 1B and allow them to move Schwarber, Bohm, or Castellanos to 1B on occasion to create more lineup options. Rhys has definitely improved his defense this year and has had a lot of moments where he has contributed but I don’t think we can afford to lock up another limited defensive player to a long term contract.

    Your thoughts?

    1. Rhys has value, but you’re talking about somebody who’s 1 year away from FA (looking to get paid) AND he won’t be making chump change in his final year of arbitration ($10-$12M). I don’t think you’ll be finding too many teams offering anything significant for that. Let’s put it this way, if the Phillies have a hole at 1B for 2023, what would you be willing to trade for Hoskins? Rojas? Miller?

      1. Good points and I wouldn’t expect a big return. It’s more about creating more lineup flexibility and saving some $ to add pitching depth or maybe you can get a solid hitting prospect back in the deal. I think we have plenty of guys that can play 1B including Hall. The only question is would Castellanos, Schwarber, or Bohm be better defensively than Rhys? That, I don’t have the answer to.

        1. Then what about Darick Hall? Where’s he going to play?

          Anyways, I think the Phillies can get a decent lotto ticket for Rhys.

      2. I’m more on the keep Rhys bandwagon than I have been before but if I moved Rhys I’d probably put Schwarber at 1B and acquire a more athletic LF.

        1. Okay, we want to acquire a more athletic LF. With what money and then who else doesn’t get signed? What prospects can be traded? Once I do the calculus with Hoskins, I usually conclude that the best option is to pay him for next year and then take 2023 as it comes.

          1. Could pursue Benintendi for LF instead of playing for Turner and have an elite CF/LF defense and platoon Maton/Sosa at 2B.

            But as you said I think it’s best just to bring him back. I don’t see him having more value in a trade than on the roster.

    2. Chad…welcome.
      You are preaching to the choir when it comes to me.
      His overall numbers have ticked up on the field and at the plate this season.
      My issue was always his RISP for a 2nd spot or middle of the guy hitter
      This season it is a better metric in those regards…263/.365/.463
      Still….you make valid points …see what he can bring back.
      It is that, or eventually a compensation pick in 2024, since do not see Boras agreeing to any team friendly LTCs

    3. I agree. Also Hall is a very good option for 1B. Lots of depth. I don’t know what Rhys could get us but he is having his best offensive season. So that helps.

      1. His best defensive season as well, that can’t be overlooked. Maybe he becomes a qualifying offer candidate after 2023.

  22. One other point about last night, Robertson came on in the 8th after Synderguard gave up a homer and the Reds had momentum in a 1 run game. Since Knubel is on IL, we would have had to go to a less proven RP without Robertson. Knubel’s injury (hopefully only 15 days) makes the Robertson acquisition particularly important.

  23. Welcome Chad. You have a lot of support on this site, especially Romus! Let me just share the opposite opinion. I think Rhys is worth more to us than he gets us back in a trade. While I share the same concerns as Romus regarding his #s with RISP, I believe the organization really likes him, and at least until the big LTC has to be decided, the team will keep him. I don’t think he brings back a player that helps us as much as he presently helps us, even if you think his value to the team isn’t great. He has a 3 WAR. Who are we getting back that matches that? I don’t think any current player, so that leaves praying that we get a prospect that does that some time in the future, while sacrificing what he brings to the team in the present. Sure, if you make me choose between Rhys and Aaron Nola, I pick Nola, but I don’t think that is the issue. Does waiting diminish his future value? Probably, but the flip side is losing a 3 WAR player today, or next season, without replacing that value. So, I think he stays for the short term, at least. I do not consider Darick Hall to be the equivalent of Hoskins.

  24. Thanks for the welcome by everyone who has responded. I see both sides of the argument and do agree we probably won’t get back equivalent value you if you use WAR but I just think having Hoskins, Schwarber, and Castellanos on the same team limits your lineup construction. I would also agree with putting Hall there against RH hitters if he continues to show he can hit. I want a better defensive team in the outfield and moving Hoskins gives you more options to do that. Castellanos is basically your full time DH or possible 1B against LH pitchers. Who knows, maybe Hall is building some trade value as well. All in all, it all comes back to roster construction. If Maton or Sosa are in the team’s plans, that would also give them the option to move the infielders around and move Bohm to 1B on occasion. This is all an assumption that Schwarber and Castellanos would be tough to move with their current contract situation.

  25. With the development of our starters and the bullpen, I hope folks realize that, in spite of all expectations, the Phillies have become a pitching-first team and that won’t change if the big three in the minors join the rotation in the next year or two. This is why the defense-friendly additions at the trade deadline (and the acquisition of a serviceable starter and an excellent reliever) were tailored to what this team needs to do best – pitch and field. The hope is that when Harper and Schwarber come back and the young guys continue to develop, the hitting will be above average, which seems likely.

    1. And while, personally, I love nothing more than a team that can hit (I grew up watching a lot of 1-0 games as a kid – I do not enjoy watching pitchers duals), we have turned out to be a team that throws it really well.

  26. Rhys reminds me of Pat the Bat (Burrell) a streaky hitter who at times carried the Phillies when the more beloved hitters weren’t performing. Rhys, like Burrell, I think, is more valued by this team than he is by the fans.

    Do I listen/explore trade offers for Hoskins? Absolutely, but I doubt he brings back the value he brings to the team.

    Note: Aron does not equal Arron. I’ve been here since 2009 when I was looking for information on the impending trade for Halliday before RAJ pulled the Cliff Lee surprise on us.

    1. In Rhys’ career…..he has come to the plate 25% of the time with RISP, and has hit at a BA clip of .249 (or got a hit 25% of the time)
      In comparison to a few other 1B man:
      …Alonso…. 27% PAs with RISP …BA of .264.
      …Goldey…..26% PAs with RISP…..BA of.312.
      …Freddy…..24%……………………….BA ….330
      …Votto……..24% ………………………BA…..323
      ….Olson………27%………………………BA……252

      It may be a bit unfair to comp Rhys to Freeman, Votto or Goldey….probably three future Hall of Famers, but at this point I think the Phillies can make a move with him.
      And like others have said…why not Hall…..defensively there is no comedown and ISO probably is in the same neighborhood..

  27. Chiming in on the Rhys Hoskins discussion. First and foremost, I’m a big Rhys fan and supporter. I remember tracking his progress every step of his successful minor league climb.

    Putting my fandom aside, I would say there are multiple things that have been said that just might be true

    We wouldn’t get equal value, from a pure production standpoint, in a trade for Rhys. I believe this statement when judging this as a sole transaction.

    The Phillies would be better off trading Rhys Hoskins – this seems opposite of the above statement, but could also be true when factoring in what dominos fall after such a move.

    If a combo of a Hoskins trade and letting Segura go gets you a solid 2/3 starter (don’t know who that is), do you do it?

    If you can sign Turner with the same money, do you do it?

    I think Hall can capably fill first vs righties (and maybe lefties).

    I certainly love Hoskins, but it is possible the club can improve as a whole while not getting full value for Hoskins in a trade.

    1. Dave Dombrowski, like in any trade scenario, would seek to maximize Hoskins’ value in the market…but that also entails what his arb figure would preclude the rest of the off season decisions/acquisitions. If signing Trea Turner means moving Rhys since Hall can fill the role at 1b, than you don’t equate Hoskins against Hall but rather Turner against Hoskins minus the drop in Hall’s replacement value. Hoskins is supposedly a good teammate and productive known commodity. Hall’s major league career has only just begun. But there’s a redundancy in having both on the roster. Hall is cheaper, bats left, fields about the same, maybe a tad better…Turner IMO will more than make up for the dropoff from Hoskins to Hall, if there even is any over the long haul. Turner will cost more, but the old adage: grow the arms, buy the bats – makes sense here since we have THREE promising starting pitchers on the horizon.

      1. Yeah, but it’s not just about replacing performance it’s about added salary – adding Turner costs a hell of a lot more. I wouldn’t mess with Hoskins at this point through next year. The guy I think probably has the most trade value who may not get much better going forward is Bohm. If he continues to be the same player, he’s like 1-2 WAR guy and I think it’s possible that’s all he becomes. I am not saying they should trade him but I’d listen for sure if I were the Phillies.

    2. Agree completely which is why I wanted to start this discussion. It will be interesting to see what happens but for now I’m going to hope that Rhys makes it really hard to trade him. Let’s hope he goes on a hot streak in October and we can worry about it later..

  28. I find the whole discussion a fascinating exercise in predicting what DD will do. I don’t see another every day player in FA, but I could certainly be wrong. I think even with our young SPs, we will need a SP for next season. If Stott is the SS, and Segura not back, we need a 2B. And, of course, our annual need for BP help. I have my opinion, but zero certainty about how they will continue to build the team

    1. If the Phillies aren’t prepared to trade top prospects for needle moving stars, then free agency has to be the way, and Dombrowski will have no excuse not to lay out the big bucks for a guy like Turner. Losing salary by not re-upping Segura’s and Eflin’s options, and trading the arb eligible Hoskins, makes ample room – reluctantly perhaps, but hey.

        1. Hoskins has been more valuable than Castellanos and Schwarber this year and he’s going to cost about half a much. Doubt they will trade him this offseason. We will see.

          1. But Hoskins is very tradeable…he has up his value this year IMO,
            .the other two are too costly due to their contracts’ AAV and length, and limited positionally to LF …….and for Castellanos RF if a team does not mind a negative SDI from him.

          2. Catch. I’ve been a Hoskin fan… but I am very willing to explore trading him for the right deal or the overall net gain as a team.
            It is tough to lose his bat, but there is room for offensive improvement at 3B,SS,2B,1B . I think collectively they can improve on:

            1)Bohm, Stott,Seguara,Hoskins
            Vs
            2)Bohm,Stott,Turner,Hall
            W/piece from Hoskins trade – backend bullpen piece

            Next year, Harper
            Should not be the DH of healthy which opens up a few avenues

            Turner,Stott,Harper,Schwarber, Castellanos, Realmuto, hall, Bohm,Marsh

            Will see, but I’m
            Open to it

  29. Outfield and DH next season is locked with Harper, Castellanos, Schwarber, Marsh and Vierling. When Rojas proves himself and moves to the 40, he comes up and that eliminates Vierling.

    If the team keeps Hoskins next year, Hall is the odd man out. Do they trade him or send him back to AAA? Do they lose Romus as a fan? Only kidding. He’ll never leave us. He da man!

  30. Schwarber out of the Lineup again tonight. Has anyone heard anything about when he might be back?

  31. (Not so) fun fact: the Phillies have the second lowest batting average in all of baseball (.182, beating only Arizona) with the bases loaded. They’re dead last in wRC+(37!!!!!).

    It’s so bad, that it should be a legitimate strategy to walk the bases loaded any time we get a runner at this point.

  32. Couldn’t find Hall’s splits vs righty, lefty at Lehigh anywhere. The Phillies seem to use him exclusively against right handed pitchers, making it appear he would be a platoon first baseman if Rhys were to be traded. Based on his number of at bats it appears he played everyday at Lehigh – was he a disaster against lefties?

    1. The MiLB website does splits.

      Hall is .188/.257/.344 with 24 Ks, 6 BBs, and 3 HRs against lefties on the year in AAA (96 ABs).

  33. Kiley McDaniel of ESPN updated his Top 50 prospects. Some noteworthy excerpts:

    15. Curtis Mead, 3B, Rays
    Age: 21 | Level: Triple-A
    Mead isn’t the greatest defender or raw athlete, but this isn’t the NFL combine. Mead can hit, has an excellent approach and will probably get to all of his raw power (20-25 homer upside). I’d imagine he’s a real everyday factor for the Rays next season.

    32. Andrew Painter, RHP, Phillies
    Age: 19 | Level: High-A
    Painter (great pitcher name) has had a huge velo spike this spring, gaining 3-4 ticks (he’s now hitting triple digits) and firming up his already 55-to-60 grade raw stuff to be even better. He’s the consensus best pitching prospect in baseball below Double-A — chatter around the league is that he was one of the players the Nationals were trying to initiate side deals or three-way trades to include in Juan Soto trade proposals.

    46. Mick Abel, RHP, Phillies
    Age: 20 | Level: High-A
    If Painter is the clear below Double-A favorite, the player who comes second to him on that list is also on the Phillies. Abel, like Painter, was a standout talent early in high school and has continued progressing, even if he hasn’t had the huge spike in ability that Painter did this year.

    1. Yeah Mead is the #15 overall prospect in baseball, but the Phils got…[checks notes] Cristopher Sanchez :-/

    2. There may be no clearer example of how poor the prior regime was at scouting hitters than the trade of Mead for a AAAA arm. Brutal. They couldn’t even scout their own prospects well.

  34. He also listed the next-best prospect for each team, after the Top 50. For the Angels it was O’Hoppe. For the Phils it was Rojas.

  35. MLB pipeline updated the Phillies top 30.

    1. Painter
    2. Abel.
    3. Crawford
    4. McGarry
    5. Rojas
    6. Lee
    7. Miller
    8. Wilson
    9. Rincones Jr.
    10. McFarlane

    I can’t complain too much about the top 10. I would put McGarry at #3 just based on proximity alone. And I would put Rickardo Perez at #10, push McFarlane to #9, and take out Rincones Jr. out of the top 10.

    1. for what it’s worth, #12 on this list was Muzziotti. You can read the entire writeup here: https://www.mlb.com/prospects/phillies/

      but here was the punchline, “An above-average runner, Muzziotti has shown he can play an excellent defensive center field with good reads and routes. He has the ability to play all three outfield spots well, a good thing because he likely profiles best as a fourth outfielder given his limited offensive ceiling.”

  36. Clearly, the Phillies have very strong pitching prospects. But looking at the placement of Rojas on the ESPN and MLB lists, the PhuturePhillies community collectively may be undervaluing him.

    1. Rojas is extremely talented. If it clicks and his bat becomes more consistent, he’s almost another Shane Victorino. But Rojas’ bat is a huge question mark.

    2. I don’t think we are undervaluing him at all. I think MLB is overvaluing him. And, in saying that, I’m not taking a shot at the guy – I just think his value is completely dependent on a hit tool and plate discipline that we haven’t seen so far. The good news is that he’s young, but if he’s going to stay a top prospect the hit tool and plate discipline need to improve in a big way next year.

        1. Serious question, what do you see Rojas’s most likely outcome to be? Sell me on him. I want to believe what you see. But when I look at his performance, I can’t imagine think that he has a higher likely MLB potential than McGarry.

          1. I’m with you.

            I know about the tools. Rojas has big time tools (in fact I raved about them here as early as ST 2021). We’ve had a ton of outfield prospects (scores of them really) that have had great tools. But if you don’t make consistent contact and don’t have solid plate discipline, the tools are of no use. I might have Rojas in the back end of my top 10 (if only because our system is shallow), but we seriously overvalue this player in my view. He’s at .231 with a .290 OBP and .331 slugging percentage. That’s generally not what future MLB starters look like in the minors even when they are a bit young for their league (which Rojas is). And, yes, Rojas could come around, but if you’re not seeing some of those results by next year, it’s hard for me to get too excited about him.

            1. By the way, the MLB list really isn’t too bad.

              I might have it ranked like this:

              1. Painter
              2. Abel.
              3. McGarry (he may have the best overall stuff in the entire MINORS and he’s surging – of course I have him ahead of the scuffling Rojas)
              4. Lee (I could be wrong, but I think this guy is going to be above average major league hitter and he plays the middle infield. Crawford may pass him soon, but I want to see that performance first)
              5. Crawford
              6. Bergolla
              7. Perez
              8. Rojas
              9. Miller
              10. Rincones Jr.

      1. Maybe. But then you must not really like ESPN’s list, because Kiley McDaniel has him 3rd.

  37. I am still in pain so excuse me, If my post is in wrong place, lots of talk about turner, I am not as in love with another bat, I want that third pitcher a true two to join Wheeler And Nola, I know painter is on the way, but most likely two yrs at earliest, I like bohm at third, stott at short, and combination of Sosa and Maton at second, The outfield and Dh are set, even thought i am not sold on Marsh, and we have two good catchers, so why Turner or Swanson over a top starter?

    1. rocco….fair point….I suppose Rodon would be your choice for that 3rd pitcher. With Suarez already here, that then is four good pitchers fronting the rotation.

    2. I don’t know if they will get Turner or not Rocco. I know that Segura likely isn’t coming back and I know the position could use an upgrade offensively. I know the LU could use a true lead off hitter.

      Sure you always need pitching but tell me who they are going to target. Most of what will be available will have a bit more injury risk than I am interested in.

      With a 1 and 2 already in place and a decent enough 3 in Ranger and the strong potential to bring back Gibson and yes some quality starters appear to be on the way.

  38. With the Braves jumping on rookie Harris for a LTC, to go along with Acuna/Albies/Olson and Riley….makes me wonder now that Swanson will be let go after the season is completed to test the free agency market.

    1. Alex definitely has an MO. Who knows what either side is thinking but when you see that Seager deal go down their eyes dilated 10 sizes I’m sure!

      Heck the Semien deal too and Semien was 30 Swanson will be 29. The Orioles projected payroll for 23 is $26 mil. Hard to imagine them not adding a key piece or two.

    2. Swanson is a month and a half away from free agency, so he has zero incentive to sign a team-friendly deal.

      I don’t think anyone can look at this in a vacuum and say that just because the Braves locked up Acuna, Albies, Harris, etc., they should have done the same for Swanson. To provide context, those guys got off to relatively fast starts in their careers, which made it easier for the Braves to justify locking them up.

      Swanson wasn’t a sure thing and the Braves were actually looking to replace him after a couple years. To his credit, he worked hard and continued to improve, to the point where he’s now a really good player. Because of the time it took for him to develop, Swanson now has negotiating leverage, whereas the others didn’t, so they took the early deal to lock in financial security.

      All this said, I believe the Braves have a lot of interest in signing Swanson to a new contract. He’s a Georgia kid that helped them win a World Series and has a lot of years in front of him. But since they lost their negotiating leverage with him it’s going to cost more. Will they re-sign him? We don’t know because we have to find out what other teams are prepared to pay him. I think if the money is close he’ll stay with the Braves but if it’s not the PA will strong arm him into signing elsewhere to continue raising the financial bar for shortstops.

      1. Bottom line and to that I say…next man up…..Vaughn Grissom
        Alex A. will be looking to get him in the lineup next season….and Swanson is blocking him.
        Grissom has played approx. 70% of his minor league games at shortstop and think the Braves want him to step up.

        1. Yes, the benefits of a deep farm system. If they go that route (and they certainly could), will it cost them in the interim while he develops? We might find out.

  39. My 2023 lineup;
    Bryson Stott
    Trea Turner
    Bryce Harper
    Nick Castellanos
    Kyle Schwarber
    Alec Bohm
    Darick Hall
    JT Realmuto
    Brandon Marsh

    I like Hoskins but would try to trade high and open up salary, also like Segura but it’s a salary issue. I like our pitching rotation and would consider trying to sign Syndegard to a 3 yr 36m contract and letting Efflin go. Also would try to keep Gibson.

    1. I like that lineup a lot. And then you use Vierling as a 4th OF which allows Schwarber to play 1B sometimes too.

      I really wonder what we could get for Rhys. I have no idea what his value is. Now that there is a DH in the NL, that adds to Rhys’s value as it opens up more teams.

      1. After games like last night….and hoping he has more like that…Rhys’ value has to be close to an all-time high.
        I hope the Giants do not bring back Belt…..and be enticed with local boy Rhys and trade for him.
        Not sure what they would give for an additional arb year and then free agency for him in 2024.
        Understand they are also looking at Judge and having him come home
        Giants have money to spend and they have to keep up with their hot rival Dodgers and now also the Padres.

        1. When I evaluate all the teams that could partner with the Phillies in a potential Hoskins trade, I keep coming back to the Giants for three reasons:

          1) It’s a position of need for them, as I don’t see them bringing back Belt.

          2) As Romus points out, they have the financial wherewithal to pay Hoskins while several other teams choose not to pay eight figures for a 1B as an organizational philosophy.

          3) Kapler thinks highly of Rhys and knows what he brings to a team in terms of production and in the locker room. The Giants will go through an overhaul in the offseason and they’ll be looking for some leadership.

          Additionally, the Giants match up well in a trade with the Phillies, as they have some players that would fit in a return.

          I don’t think Hoskins being a local guy has anything to do with it but if that’s somewhere he would consider playing as a free agent, then this would give him an opportunity to experience it first hand before making that decision.

          I’m not advocating or predicting a Hoskins trade but if it does happen then I think the Giants make sense. But I would be perfectly fine with him returning for his final season.

    2. The LT is $233 mil. I say you go one more year with Rhys. Ride it out. Maybe in a contract year he goes off even more than he is doing right now.

      Turner
      Harper
      Hoskins
      Schwarber
      Castellanos
      Realmuto
      Bohm
      Stott
      Marsh/Vierling

      Would be my preferred LU. Stott is not ready for the lead off roll yet IMO and I do not like a lefty in the 9 hole with a lefty at the 1 hole. I want that solid L/R/L as much as I can get it.

      Stott stays in on lefties very well but Marsh doesn’t. Turner at the top protects Marsh to some extent.

      Which leaves you with the question on Maton Hall and Sosa who all belong on an MLB roster some where hmmm…

      1. DMAR……I can understand yuor reluctance on not moving Rhys….after last night…..however, he is probably gone after one more year anyways .
        Moving him going into arb4 and his age 30 season will get you a decent prospect from what he is now doing, production-wise, and hopefully keeps it up for another month.
        BUT….the $10M salary savings, also goes to get the team a very decent free agent

        1. Yeah, maybe if you’re really lucky, and you pay an extra $10 million on top of that you get a guy who could produce a 133+ OPS – you know, like the one Hoskins gives you right now.

        2. If the only thing in the way is $$$ then buck up…

          Because guess what LA and the Mets aren’t going to sit on their hands. If you ain’t spendin you ain’t contending

          If it somehow goes awry you can trade out of a few of those deals…

  40. Really enjoying watching Darick Hall play. Thinking about comps for the type of player he is. What do you think about CJ Cron or Rowdy Tellez as comps? Both very productive MLB hitters. Not a great OB% but when they hit it it goes boom!

    1. I like those comps….maybe also Muncy or Voit
      Next year will be Hall’s age27 season…same age year Muncy exploded out with the Dodgers.

    2. Yes excellent comps…

      I think its inevitable we don’t get Rhys to a LT deal so I really want to hold onto Hall if I can.

      If you’re telling me I can’t have both Rhys and Turner that is a really difficult decision. I hope JM approves a scenario where we go over the cap for a year.

  41. And the Rhys disrespect goes on and on and on. It’s completely mystifying to me.

    He’s going to play to a 4-4.5 WAR this year. The only more productive players on this team right now are Harper (when healthy) and Realmuto. That’s it. And, so if we are trying to advance in the playoffs this year and next, why the heck do you trade this cost-controlled guy unless someone makes you an offer you can’t refuse? It’s an easy answer – you don’t. As far as whether they sign him long term – there is no reason to commit to that now at all and, once he asks for big money, the considerations are entirely different. Chances are they tender him and then make a plain cost/benefit decision as to whether they should keep him.

    But he’s almost certainly here next year and that’s how it should be.

    1. I agree there will probably be one big free agent signing this year and maybe a modest secondary signing or two).

      It will probably either be an infielder or starting pitcher (but agree that, with the big 3 on the way, it very well may not be a pitcher).

    2. I don’t believe there has been any disrespect to Rhys on this site. He’s a tremendous player. Looking at it realistically, will he be here after next year? Probably not. If that is case, you start planning for that now. I like Darrick Hall, but he would most likely be a downgrade as a replacement. But that is not the full measure. What is the upgrade you can achieve (SP or Trea Turner) vs the incremental downgrade from Rhys to Hall.

      Great players get traded, this is a business. I really love Rhys as a player and a clubhouse presence. But I would hate to lose him for nothing if the Phillies KNOW they will not keep him long term.

      If the Phillies believe they may keep him, I’d be all for it, I trust DD to figure it out.

      Just don’t want to keep him for another year if we are going to let him walk … especially if QO draft pick goes away.

      1. If you could trust Hall to give you 90% of the production Hoskins would give you that make sense. I like Hall but don’t trust him to do that.

        Also, if the team were not in a win-now mode, it wouldn’t matter as much if you traded Hoskins, but they are in a win-now mode.

        Combine all of that with the fact that Hoskins’ trade value is probably moderate at best, I think you keep him next year. Just my view of the world.

        1. I would have no problem if it worked out that way. I agree with your stance on Hall. In win now mode Hoskins is an asset to keep if you don’t feel you can make the team better allocating funds differently. In win now and long term mode, he could be traded if DD thinks he can net/net upgrade the team with a trade … will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

    3. The willingness to keep Rhys for another year for many on this site…..and then spend a small fortune for his services on a LTC borders on Ruebenism from 10 years ago….reward and maintain loyalty for a good soldier, future be damned..
      Then you witness other GMs cut and trim and take the risk, ie Freeman and the Braves, Astros and Correa, Dodgers and Seager.

      The Phillies have not won anything, nor maje the playoffs in a decade and people want to keep the good ole boys….a recipe for future futility.

      1. Well, I always said, the decision after 2023 with Hoskins is completely different – they would need to be careful about giving him a LTC and should be ready to move on if he asks too much.

    4. I like Rhys. I am not disrespecting him. Just that we have too many poor defensive OF/DH types and need to upgrade elsewhere. But I like him

      1. Yeah I don’t get the obsession with Rhys being disrespected. It’s simply a baseball economics situation…his contract status, arb eligible but costing more and more with more glaring needs on the roster, playing a position of relative redundance. Good bat, not great. Power. Leadership qualities, yes but not irreplaceable. I also see him doing well close to his home, either SF or maybe LAA since DD has already greased the skids with the Angels who might not mind spending $15M a year for him come free agency. Plus he probably has the most trade value of any potential chip on the major league roster this winter.

  42. If my calculations are correct before Arb cases we’re sitting around $128-$130 million. We’re not picking up Eflin’s $15 mil or Segura’s $17 mil

    1. Cot’s has it at $129.5M, but it’s only adding on the buyouts. Nola’s option being picked up bumps it around $141M.

      The Phillies will have arbitration raises for:

      Hoskins ~$11M
      Alvarado ~$3M
      Suarez ~$3M
      Dominguez ~$3M

      Now you’re up to ~$161M.

      The Phillies need 2 rotation starters (for Eflin and Gibson), 2B (for Segura), and 2 relievers (for Knebel and Hand).

      Assuming that the salary for 2023 will be similar to 2022, the Phillies will have about $60M to spend.

      The Phillies obviously have internal options. We’ll see what happens during the offseason.

      1. Okay, $60 million more

        – re-sign Hand – about $6 million
        – re-sign Robertson – about $10 m AAV (he’s been worth more this year, but he’s really old now – they probably need to go 2 years on this deal).
        – re-sign Gibson or another pitcher like Gibson – $10 million AAV
        – Syndergaard or someone like him – $9 million AAV
        – fill second base internally (Maton and others audition)
        – $25 m left for one big FA signing (more if you don’t re-sign hand).

        They need to be really careful about the starting pitching contracts. On the one hand, you don’t want to go into the season with a guy like Falter as your 5th starter. On the other hand, you want to make room for guys like McGarry and Painter later in the year. So, when you sign those guys, the contracts need to be competitive and they need to be players you use as trade deadline targets (and that’s how you could add additional prospects as well).

        1. I don’t know if Gibson and Thor would be willing to settle for a 1 year deal. With the way Gibson is pitching, I think some team could give him 2 years, $20M with a team option (similar to what the Royals gave Mike Minor). If teams believe that Thor’s velocity could inch back, he could also get a multiyear deal.

          It will be interesting to see if the Phillies leave 1 rotation spot open for a ST battle between Falter/Sanchez/Plassmeyer/McGarry. I think this is the route that the Phillies should go.

          1. I said AAV, not the deal term, for Gibson and Syndergaard (or two other veterans). That said, I think, if they sign two veterans, one of them will definitely be on a one-year deal so there is more flexibility to take on the young guns in 2023 and 2024.

    2. DMAR….if Eflin does not pitch again this season…..few clubs will make offers for him…..Phillies could let him go after the WS ends, and bring him back on a ‘pillow contract’ for a year @ $7/8M ……the buy-out is a modest $150K

      1. I’m not entirely against this – assuming they truly believe Eflin is healthy. He’s a very good pitcher when he’s healthy.

          1. Yes….his knees appear to be a chronic condition.
            But maybe a moot point….I am not sure how the new CBA reads on option years of contracts, ‘the release and then re-sign of a player’ …..just not sure the Phillies are able to do that type of a maneuver if they wanted to do it anyways.

  43. Tough night for Stott: oh for six. The Phillies need to be ready. I saw this kid Lodolo pitch earlier this season against the Mets. He has a great arm but control is an issue. They need to grind out at bats.

  44. And it was in Cincinnati where Suarez got his first MLB start if I’m not mistaken. The Reds roughed him up that night with a couple of HRs. That was a less mature Suarez and much more talented Reds team.

    1. My goodness, when he has his command, Ranger is amazing.

      He’s a guy you have to think seriously about extending at some point. Do a Braves-type deal with him. I think he’d be thrilled to death. Man, he’s one heck of a pitcher and he’s so different from all the other existing and projected starters – that’s a great thing.

      1. That said, losing 1-0 is the worst. I’m still not over the Roy Halladay/Ryan Howard game. I was there. Worst feeling I ever had walking out of a ballpark or stadium.

        1. Catch, I was there also, sitting up a level right behind Home Plate. I thought both of Utley’s and Raul’s hits were HRs off the bat, and so did most in my section. And they probably would have been in 70 of the home games that season, but not on that night. I didn’t recover until the 2012 season was almost over!

  45. The Texas Rangers fired their POBO Jon Daniels only a couple days after firing their manager. They’ve a history of spending money, making splashy acquisitions yet never get over the hump. The Angels come to mind as a similar organization with even less success in recent years, and let’s hope the Phillies make the playoffs or we can very easily make the same assessment of our hometown team.

    1. That’s odd given the amount of $$$ they allowed him to spend in the off season.

      I feel those types of acquisitions need a season maybe two to take hold.

    2. The Rangers thought they were ready to take the next step as contenders and they were dead wrong. Not sure why they thought they were ready, they don’t really have a lot of young players on their team, and their starting rotation was really unproven. I could understand signing one player, but they went crazy.

      1. Because the owner said “I want to contend this year” like Middleton said in 2019 and like Arte Moreno says every year. So the GM has to suspend his belief in reality and do what the owner says.

        One of the best things about having a guy like Pat Gillick or Dave Dombrowski as the GM/President is they are past the point of being intimidated by the owner. They have the credentials and bank account to tell the truth and then let the owner decide.

  46. Saw a tweet a few minutes ago…not sure how legit but someone posted that the Phillies would sign Stephen Piscotty who is now a free agent after being released by the A’s yesterday. Not sure how long Marsh will be on the shelf but Piscotty might offer some defensive stability out there in CF.

      1. Piscotty is very close with Mark Appel. I’m sure Sam Fuld (another Stanford guy) probably has a major say in the move. I mean there is nothing to lose by signing him.

        1. Fuld, Appel, Piscotry, Miller— Stanford Cardinal are potentially taking over the Phillies

      2. Yep, .249, .226, .220, .190 past 4 years, I’m all in for Piscotty, Not!
        Buy back Adam Haseley.

  47. Cardinals have a good group of young players and another loaded farm system.
    And rated highly among many MLB observers is one of their young OFers, Dylan Carlson. Rated high at both the plate and in the field..
    A little MLB slash comp between Carlson and Marsh:
    Marsh:….239/.299/.352…PAs-617
    Carlson…250/.322/.316…PAs-1122

  48. As I mentioned a couple days ago, Phillies stink on “getaway” days and have been shutout in the last 3; in Washington, NY and today in Cincinnati. What is it? Besides players missing.

  49. And I mentioned at 10:39 this morning that this kid Lodolo had a great arm and they’d need to run up his pitch count. This team can be so darned confounding.

    1. Just watched Lodolo for the first time and he’s funky with a legit arm from the left side. That fastball gets on you in a hurry. The strikezone was a little bit bigger on the edges and it probablty benefitted Lodolo more than Ranger. Sounds like a broken record, but they couldn’t get the big hit once again.

    2. ciada…Lodolo coming out of Texas tech in 2019 ranked as the eighth-best draft prospect by MLB Pipeline, and the top pitcher,
      He has taken awhile but looks to have come around as next season is his age25 season.

  50. Denny – It was a getaway game where the team was still there but the bats left for Philly before the game.

  51. I got a comp for Johan Rojas…Ben Revere.

    Although looking at their minor league stats, Rojas strikes out ~2x what Revere did and walks less than Ben did. But they seem like very similar players to me.

    What do you think?

    1. V1, with the comparison of Ben Revere and Rojas, what do you think about Rojas’ throwing arm and power potential? Revere had a very nice batting average for the Phils, if I remember correctly, however was continuously criticized on this site, again if I remember correctly, for both of those issues,

      1. So Rojas doesn’t have much power stats right now but he is 6’1” whereas Ben was 5’9”. And scouting reports are that he will have power. So if the power develops, then it is a bad comp. Also you make a good point that Rojas’s arm is already better then Revere.

    2. Very interesting exercise. I had difficulty finding a common ground. I’ve seen Rojas as a minor leaguer and Revere as a big leaguer. I finally settled on their full-season Class-A seasons for comparison. They were both 20-years-old, had played close to the same amount of games, and had close to the same amount of plate appearances. At that age and level, Revere was the better hitter – .379/.433/.497.930 for Revere and .240/.306/.374/.679 for Rojas. Revere hit over .300 at every level while in the Twins’ organization. Rojas is putting up a similar slash at Double-A.

      While Revere became the classic “singles hitter” in the majors, Rojas looks like he has more power. However, .240 hitters rarely develop into .300 hitters at the next level. Big edge to Revere.

      I’ve seen both play CF in Clearwater. Rojas runs better routes and therefore covers more ground. Revere had similar speed and could often outrun mistakes, but this put a limit on his range. Rojas has an arm. I saw Revere fail to reach home plate on the fly from shallow CF. He actually bounced the throw several times. Substantial edge to Rojas.

      I never saw Revere on the base paths in the minors, but he was pretty good with the Phillies, although he didn’t seem to test the outfielders’ arms and had way fewer doubles than I would have expected for a quick player at the top of the order. Rojas is fast. He picks his spots well and limits his caught stealings. Call it a push?

      I don’t know about the comp though. I think that we and the Phillies would be happy if Rojas developed into Revere’s offensive profile and maintained his defensive superiority. I don’t see him there yet. I’m not sure I would bet on him reaching it.

      1. Yes. You are right. Ben’s greatest attribute was his very low K%. Exceptional. Rojas has a much higher K%. So unclear if he gets to Ben’s batting average and OB%. You are also right on the arm.

        1. Ben’s career ISO was so low, ,059, and even that with many triples….pitchers just threw strikes and never had to pitch around him…thus less than 5% BB rate

        2. I came up with another possible comp, Carlos Tocci? Pretty close, but doesn’t give us hope for the future if Rojas doesn’t improve his hit tool. Tocci only made it to the majors for one year.

          1. Ouch. That would be a bad outcome. Revere only had a 7.4 career WAR in 8 seasons. But Tocci as an outcome would be much worse.

  52. I’ve posted my opinion before …
    For me, Victor Robles is Johan Rojas most likely outcome. And if everything goes right, Rojas has a Juan Samuel offensive ceiling.
    Rojas is going to win a Gold Glove(s) in CF. Robles had very similar K% and BB% in MiLB. Rojas’ slash lines do trail Robles as a minor leaguer, but Robles has regressed (by a lot) as a pro.
    If you look at what Sammy did with the Phillies (and yes I understand he primarily played 2B, but I’m talking offensively), he slashed .263/.310/.439, hit between 10-20 triples & HRs per season, stole ~40 bases per campaign, and also led the league in Ks four times. Samuel was the most exciting player I can remember as a Phillie. Maybe it’s wishful thinking, but that is Johan Rojas’ ceiling.

    1. … and before anyone brings up Samuel’s .263 BA ⬆, that # may be a little optimistic, but you also gotta’ remember the IF will open up beginning in 2023 when the shift is banned.

      1. Sure, maybe Rojas has raw tools similar to Samuel, but by the time Samuel was 22, he had made his major league debut. Most importantly, in his age 21 season (Rojas is in his age 21 season), Samuel was hitting a lot of homers and batting .320. He looked like a future star. Now, maybe that will happen to Rojas – where the light turns on and he starts hitting like gangbusters, but he hasn’t done that yet.

    2. Hinkie, here’s some spitball trade talk…considering the risk to both sides of the table…not that it’s likely:

      Would you offer Erik Miller, Johan Rojas, Griff McGarry and Rhys Hoskins to the Angels for Mike Trout and LHP Patrick Sandoval (25 yrs old with several more years under team control)?

      Granted, Trout is 31 and breaking down more regularly but when healthy is still such an impact on the field, and not to mention his salary, which should lessen the return in prospects. So yes there’s serious risk, somewhat mitigated by adding a promising Sandoval.

      1. I’m the biggest Mike Trout fan on this site (he was born down the street from my house), but I would not take on his mega deal. There are flashing red lights concerning Trout’s health. That looks like a whole lot of negative money going forward. I’d be open to trading any (or all) of those guys if it brought back the right player(s), but I wouldn’t do it for Trout and his 400M+ contract. Sorry to all of my Cumberland County brethren.

        1. When you say you wouldnt take on his megadeal, are you assuming that they would be crippled by it and still want to stay under the tax? Because if not, and I dont mean this snarky but for real, why does it matter to you or anyone how much a billionaire pays a player? I hate to compliment the Mets, but I do love how their owner is just like “Im filthy rich, I couldnt spend all my money in my lifetime if I tried to, Im just gonna pay for all stars, go way over the tax, cut them if they stink, and not care about it because all I want is to win”

          Thats how a sports owner should be.

          1. LOL, Romus.

            Dan, I hate to be put in the position of arguing against Mike Trout (for the reasons I stated above).
            I’m all for an owner who is willing to spend money. But it’s not a matter of how much money the owner is willing to spend, it’s a matter of how wisely he spends it. Mike Trout is on the wrong side of 30, and his body is beginning to break down (could be looking at a Ken Griffey Jr situation). Is it possible Mike stays healthy enough in 2023 to help the Phillies win a WS? Yes. Is it likely? IDK about that.
            There are penalties (some to do with draft picks & position) involved in staying above the upper levels of the LTT. If Middleton wants to take on 400M, I’d rather he diversify his portfolio. Maybe spread it out to buy Justin Verlander. Edwin Diaz, and Trea Tuener. Again, none of this is going to happen. Arte Moreno is not going to trade Mike Trout, and John Middleton is not going to spend another 400M this winter.

            1. Hinkie…..i wonder if Mike Trout will go to Moreno and ask to be dealt to Philadelphia.
              Moreno could think on that……Moreno still has to pony up $35M plus AAV for Ohtani if he plans on keeping him around.
              I think Middleton would be furthered enticed if Moreno picked up 40% of Trout’s remaining contract.

            2. Actually, Trout’s remaining salary after this season is $283.6M but your point and reasoning still stand and are sound from the Phillies perspective.

              While a good thought exercise, in the end I can’t see Moreno letting go of Trout until he squeezes all the value out of him like he did with Pujols. Trout could make a trade request but no one forced him to sign the biggest contract in MLB history knowing this could happen, while the Angels make a small fortune from him in tickets and merchandising (same with Ohtani). That gives you a small glimpse into how some owners measure success.

              The Angels are in a real predicament, as they want to avoid the luxury tax at all costs, no pun intended. I think Ohtani will get close to $50M AAV with his free agent deal and when you combine that with Trout and Rendon, that puts you at approximately $120M AAV for three players. It would be extremely difficult to construct a winning club with that top heavy formula. In the end, I see Ohtani signing elsewhere, as he already knows that formula won’t work.

              Would some clubs trade both Ohtani and Trout and start over with 10-12 top prospects in return? Yes, of course, but the Angels aren’t one of those clubs, in my opinion. It’s possible they trade Ohtani at the deadline next summer if they’re out of contention but that’s likely the extent of it. Trading Trout to make financial room for Ohtani won’t work, per the same reasoning I gave at the end of the previous paragraph. Ohtani wants to play for a winner and I see the Blue Jays, Dodgers, Mets, and Yankees as his likeliest destinations in 2024, with the Giants and Mariners as outside possibilities.

        2. Agree Hinkie, I wouldn’t go there for the price tag of $ and prospects it would take. If one would go in for Trout, they should have gone in for Soto. Having said that, I agree with the decision to pass on Soto. Would you rather have: a) Soto minus the players it would take to acquire him, or b) Turner next year plus all those players? I take B.

    3. Robles and Revere are very similar. Revere’s offensive stats were better. But not that much. So I think that we have a similar likely outcome for Rojas. That of a sub 1 WAR player. So then how do you justify ranking him over McGarry? Or Miller for that matter?

        1. I agree with both of you.

          Right now, McGarry projects as a mid to upper level starter in the big leagues or high leverage reliever. Rojas projects as a 4th outfielder right now.

          Again, hopefully, Rojas improves his projections next year, but right now, it’s not close between Rojas and McGarry in my opinion.

  53. Went to Youtube yesterday and watched all 34 of Castellanos’ home runs. Took about five and a half minutes. Fifteen of the 34 HRs were dead center to right field. He seems to be trying to pull everything since he got to Philly. Would be nice to see him hit more to the opposite field especially with all of the sliders that he sees.

  54. It would also help if he didn’t swing at those breaking pitches down and away, but the whole team shares the blame for 4 shutouts in 7 games, and doing so poorly in get away day games. It looks like an IL stint for marsh, and we will need another OF. It can’t be Odubel. I have seen a bunch of names thrown around. Is Rojas a possibility, even for just defensive purposes?

  55. I read somewhere around the Allstar break that Castellanos would have had 7 more homers if not for the new baseballs this year. Thought that was interesting.

    1. My understanding is that, although the new ball generally doesn’t go as far as the old balls, the biggest difference was in how the balls were stored – in a humidor – to make them more soggy so they didn’t fly quite as far. My guess is that MLB has adjusted the humidity level because balls are flying the way they should right now whereas the balls were positively dead to begin the year.

  56. I see that Johan Camargo has played OF previously in the bigs, as recently as 2019. He may be an option for LF.

  57. I wonder if a bullpen role for Zack Eflin wouldn’t be a better role for him in the future. I wonder if his knees wouldn’t respond better to pitching an inning every other day vs trying to throw 6-7 every five days.

    1. Eflin has made it quite clear that he doesn’t want to be a reliever. He’s going to be starting somewhere next season, likely not for the Phillies.

  58. Good Lord, I too hope Johan Rojas becomes a very good player. But Juan Samuel comparison? Not likely. Samuel’s first 4 years with the Phils [84-87] were absolutely Hall of Fame like. He was a 2nd baseman and during those 4 years this was what he AVERAGED per season! 160 games, 103 runs scored, 35 doubles, 15 triples, 19 home runs, 80 RBI and 51 stolen bases.

    The Samuel stories were legendary but here are just a few. He was part of a minor league system that featured these 3 infielders, Samuel, Julio Franco and Ryne Sandberg. The latter two are Hall of Famers and early in their careers, Samuel was the best of the three. In fact, it was said that the Cubs asked for Samuel as part of the Larry Bowa-Ivan DeJesus trade and when the Phils laughed at Dallas Green [then the Cubs GM] he said “Ok, I’ll take Sandberg.” That was in 1982.

    Then before the 1983 season the Phils wanted Von Hayes from Cleveland and once again the Indians asked for Samuel. Phils laughed and said no so Cleveland said, “Ok, we’ll take Julio Franco.” The rest was baseball history but I always wondered what a lineup of a still legendary Mike Schmidt, and the 3 youngsters would have done.

    One more addendum to the Samuel story and this is merely my opinion. The 1983 Phillies, the Wheeze Kids, did win the NL pennant before losing 4 very winnable games to the Baltimore Orioles. That Phillie team entered September in bad shape but early that month they recalled Samuel and he was phenomenal and they won the division and then the pennant.

    Here is my point. Because they recalled him too late Samuel was ineligible for the World Series roster and I personally always felt the Phils would have won that ’83 series had Samuel played instead of 40 year old Joe Morgan.

    1. CD, interestingly Baseball-reference.com has the following stats for Samuel postseason 1983
      1 PA and 1AB in the World series against Baltimore, and 0 appearances in 0 games in the NLCS against the Dodgers. Possibly it was even worse: a Girardi-like manager’s decision not to play him when he actually was eligible!

    2. CD you are spot on, I remember Samuel he was electric. When he came to the plate you stood up because you never knew what was going to happen.

      1. Like I stated in my original post, Samuel is the most exciting player I’ve ever seen wear a Phillies uniform. I stand by my original post (and I’ve been saying this for at least a year) … that is the type of ceiling I see for Johan Rojas. Granted, everything has to go right for that to happen, but he has those type of tools.

    3. Joe Morgan was horrible until late August. He then went on a hit streak that lifted the Phillies to the World Series.

      1. Just like Colorado in 2007 and the NY Football Giants, it’s how good you are going into the playoffs.

  59. Phillies picked up Bradley Zimmer slashed .105/.209/.237 in 87 plate appearances this season with Toronto. He has slashed .214/.301/.337 in parts of six seasons with Cleveland and Toronto.

    1. Denny perhaps the purpose of the CF on this team is to play really good defense with good range. Offense is a late afterthought. Do you know anything about Zimmer’s defensive abilities?

      1. Played all OF positions and has a .995 fielding %in MLB. .998 in CF. He was a 1st round pick for Clev at pick #21 in 2014. Couple picks before Matt Chapman but after Phillies picked Aaron Nola.

        On Zimmer’s Baseball Savant page, there are two vibrant red dots representing his 97th percentile sprint speed and 94th percentile defense. Only two outfielders had a higher success rate on defensive plays last year than Zimmer: Byron Buxton and Jake Marisnick.

    2. Like the Bradley Zimmer claim. There is no risk involved. He’s a former first round pick/talent who plays above avg defense. Offensively, he’s been a mess, but they’ve given up nothing for the opportunity to allow Kevin Long some time to work with him. If Zimmer can’t be fixed, they just let him go. Nothing lost.

      1. Agree but I don’t even expect they are looking to keep him beyond the crunch they have right now in CF. Once Marsh is back and Harper is reinstated from the 60-day IL, he will be released.

        1. Wow since sping training:
          Haseley
          Quinn
          Kingery
          Hererra
          Moniak
          Muzzetti
          Vierling
          Marsh
          Zimmer
          In CF.

            1. True. I think if you added all their stats together it wouldn’t equal a normal CF in MLB.

          1. I don’t think the Frankenstein monster was put together from that many bodies. Yeesh!

  60. I saw Samuel play in the Eastern League playoffs in New Britain. They lost 2-0 to the Red Sox AA affiliate. The pitcher who shut them down was Roger Clemens. That season Clemens pitched at the University of Texas, got drafted and worked his way through the Sox minor league system onto New Britain in three months. The next year he was in Boston.

  61. One last thing: That year Reading was 96-44 and New Britain was 72-67. The Sox beat the Fightins’ two games to one and then went on to win the championship mostly because of Clemens.

  62. Roman Quinn got three hits for TB last night. Did he ever have a 3 hit game for the Phillies?

    Wouldn’t it be crazy if the Rays magic wand him into a 4th-5th outfielder for the future?

  63. As Yogi used to say, “It’s getting late early”. This team just can’t compete against the big boys.

  64. Well, September Aaron Nola showed up tonight, but it doesn’t much matter if we can’t hit. I hate the whole “what a break the Phillies have not facing Scherzer, DeGrom, Carrasco, etc”, when we can’t hit. And we can make a kid just up from the Minors look like Gibson or Koufax, let alone Bassitt.

  65. I really, really hate the Mets. There’s no question that they have our number this year. Let’s get these next 3 games over with and move on.

  66. Well, it’s clear that the Phillies aren’t built to go deep into October. Could they get hot down the stretch and make some noise? Sure. But are we banking on that as a strategy moving forward? Let’s hope not. Team defense needs serious upgrades. CF must be addressed for the longterm, not just running out 4th and 5th outfielders as candidates. The starting pitching has been top 5 quality despite the occasional clunker by Nola or Wheeler.

    Let’s keep our expectations in check, but our standards high. These Phillies are constructed more like a fast pitch softball team than a legitimate contender for a ring. Whoever Dombrowski pursues this winter, he needs a catalyst at the top of the lineup…personally, I like Stott leading off with Trea Turner in the 2 hole. A bonafide #3 SP would be ideal. The front office can’t ease up on the gas at this point. A hopefully fully healthy Harper in the spring heading a stacked lineup in 2023 is something to look forward to. As Captain Picard would say, “Make it so, Dave!”

    1. M8, who do you think should take responsibility for hitting with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs (and what underachiever do you think currently has it)?

    2. mark….. ‘A bonafide #3 SP would be ideal’…assume Ranger does not cut it for you?.
      He has pitched in exactly 60 (33 starts) games these last two years at a WAR of 5.7.

    1. Thompson has, IMO, done great as Phillies manager. That said, I was extremely unenthusiastic when people on this site were touting Showalter as a great candidate for that position. Sometimes though- and the same with Dusty Baker – the results speak for themselves in a loud voice.

  67. Point well taken, Romus. I suppose a #3A to deepen the rotation will be needed since neither Thor nor Gibson may be re-signed. But yes, Ranger has shown himself a strong #3. I just don’t want DD to make a run at a mere #4, especially if the 5th starter turns out to be an unproven arm, like Falter.

    1. Thor is interesting…it took him so long to come back from his TJ…there is no exact science on return timetables.
      But I have also seen pitchers get their previous velo back after TWO years out or more from TJ.
      I would take a chance on him next season, maybe on a two-year deal or one-year pillow….that he gets it back to the upper 90s again.
      For sure this off-season he will be working diligently to get back to his old form…..his MLB shelf life is apparent now as he gets into his 30s

      1. I would offer the pillow, Romus. Say $15M for 2023, maybe add a mutual option for ’24 based on thresholds, starts, innings, something like that.

        1. Yeah….that probably would work.
          But still have to see what the market is for him….MLBTR will come out in Oct./Nov. with their projected free agent list and what the offerings could be.
          His next Aug/Sep starts down the stretch will be important for him to showcase himself

      2. I’d offer Thor a pillow deal as others have mentioned and he may be willing to bite given his comments about Cotham and Kaplan. If you think those guys can help you make a lot of money maybe you take less.

  68. The Phillies need to be really careful in these next three games with the Mets. I hate to be the prophet of doom but if they lose the early game today in Wheeler’s start, there is a real chance that they get swept not only today but for the entire series. With the exception of last year and the covid year, the Mets have absolutely dominated, and at times pounded, the Phillies.

    1. I didn’t listen to the radio coverage last night but I understand that Larry Anderson went off on the Phillies pitchers/coaches for not pitching inside to keep Alonso honest at the plate. He’s right. It’s really become a lost art league wide with few exceptions. What’s happened to gamesmanship of any kind these days, really? Call me naive but the competitive nature of the game has suffered ever since the emergence of the 3-outcome AB. I only hope it’s somehow restored before the game of baseball is unrecognizable.

          1. If you hit him…then it starts…retaliation and that other stuff between managers, players and umps.
            I’d say pitch him high heat and walk him if he doesn’t swing.

            1. Nola has the command to thread the pitch close enough without plunking him. Nobody hands anybody respect unless they demand it. Didn’t agree with Big Eddie on many things but he was right about this.

  69. Is there a worse team with a runner at 3rd with less than 2 outs? And, the 0-0 didn’t last long. We blew a chance with 1st and 3rd, 1 out, they come back and score 2. Not looking good.

  70. Look at the faces in the crowd, are these guys exciting, not!

    No fire
    No bats
    No wins (4-13) Mets (sss v1)
    Skeeter with the Heater

    1. Some years a team has your number…….sometimes it only takes one game to turn a team around and give them confidence….for the Mets it was May 5th…..Phillies had that 7-1 lead in the 9th….Nola had shut them down on 3 hits and one run….but Familia, Norwood and Knebel blew it….Mets have not looked back since.
      Phillies do not have confidence against them…they know they will lose no matter what they do against them.

      1. I thought Darricks curve or swerve needs a little more bite and some 12 to 6 stuff on it. I thinks his location is a little higher than it should be.😎

  71. Just a couple observations from the game earlier today. I was disappointed that he started Zach in the first game and really don’t understand it. Psychologically knowing that we have a AAA pitcher starting one of these games it would’ve been better to have him go first and if the Phillies lost we know we have a horse going at night. I also think the night time when it would’ve been a little cooler it might’ve been better for Zach as he seemed to lose steam after the fourth inning. Also look at the Mets approach with two strikes, reminds me the way the game used to be played. Both McNeil who I along with other posters would love to get, and Neimo and even Marte just putting the bat on the ball and things happen. Besides Bryce who now has a great two strike approach and Schwarber should swing away but I don’t see anybody else in this lineup that shouldn’t be able to do that, disappointing. That being said they beat up on our two horses, it’s time to see what we were made of, so Lets see how it goes tonight and then tomorrow.

    1. Wheeler is terrible this season in day games….night games he is outstanding.
      That is what I like to know…why not tonight ilo of the1PM game.
      Night…8-2…ERA…2.17
      Day…..3-4….ERA.. 4.82

      1. Stunning to me that in this age of analytics that they possibly could miss something like that. Makes no sense.

  72. The Phillies deserve all the negative pub right now. To slap the fanbase in the face by having a MET fan throw out the first pitch because he brought his FAN group to the stadium? What a complete joke. This franchise has lost its way.

  73. Ugh, here we go again. About done with the Falter thing. If hes good he gives 5 innings and thats a best case scenario. He just is a different pitcher in AAA than in the majors.

    1. spoke too soon, he rebounded after a very rocky 1st and pitched well. still not thrilled with the team but at least falter made me look bad for making that comment.

  74. If you let Falter pitch every fifth game over the course of a season, he will develop into a solid back of the rotation starter.

      1. Are you kidding? Suarez is a 3/4 pitcher who’s pitching like a 2 lately.

        Falter is a 4/5 pitcher who just had his 2nd quality start in his 8th start.

        There’s a huge difference here.

        1. I agree now, but there was a time that Ranger was considered a bullpen piece and then moved into back of rotation. He proved himself and moved up to 3, maybe Falter comes through.

          1. Ranger didn’t pitch more than 5 innings in a game until August 24, 2021. It took him all year to prove himself.

            1. In 2021, Ranger was in the bullpen to start and then had to build his strength to be back in the rotation.

              For the most part, Falter has been a starter for a majority of the season (including the minors). Falter has been stretched out months ago.

  75. Baseball. What a strange sport. You lose the games started by Nola and Wheeler. And you win the one started by Falter. 😲
    Meanwhile, they’ve still got the 7th best record in baseball, and one of the easiest remaining schedules. Just make the playoffs because (as we’ve seen many times) once you get in, anything can happen.

    1. 9 games against the Mets this season have been started by either Nola or Wheeler. NYM is 9-0 in those games. Classic Phillies stat of futility.

      Anyway, RHP Tyler Cyr is up from Lehigh to be available in a pending roster move involving Seranthony, one would think.

  76. Something I don’t get about the DH yesterday: The Mets started a RHP in game one and a LHP in game two. Hoskins is struggling so I thought for sure they’d give him a rest against the righty and have him bat against Peterson in game 2.

    This would’ve given a Hall a chance to get into the lineup and get a few at bats. I guess they knew they would need Hall to pitch in the ninth inning of the first game and were saving him for just that.

  77. And, Hinkie, the game, and Falter’s performance would have been completely different if not for a great defensive play by Castellanos. We haven’t said that a lot this season. Crazy game. And our 2 Aces can’t buy a W vs the Mets.

  78. Hope the Phillies don’t make Jose Butto look like the second coming of Cy Young this afternoon. Seems they struggle against pitchers they are not familiar with and Butto is a big strike out guy.

    1. Tyler Cyr.

      Corel Knebel was added to the 60 with a tear in his shoulder to open up a spot. The Phillies will likely let Knebel walk into FA.

        1. When was he last sent down? There is a restriction on how many days have to elapse before he can be recalled.

  79. Bohm with a 3-run bomb…..and then following inning an error that opens up a portal for the Mets.

  80. Call me crazy but I’d rather have Falter in the rotation than Gibson. It’s such a labor watching Gibson pitch. Just watch what happens. Our boys are going to blow this four run lead and the game.

  81. Have to say I’m not a fan of JT’s pitch calling (or their game planning). Not sure why they keep throwing inside sliders to McNeil and inside fastballs to Cahna and Alonzo. Pitching into their power.

  82. Not a good game for Rob Thomson. No excuse to use Cyr (MLB debut) with 2 outs in the 9th. Should have either gave Robertson one more batter or used Coonrod. That 10th run surrendered by Cyr was the difference.

    1. Phillies need to forget this weekend.
      Reds, Pirates and @ DBacks….Phillies better take care of business …..hopefully the Giants will be further down and the Phillies can win that series. Then the Marlins and Nats.

  83. We Phillies fans can hate the Mets as much as we want but they are a far more superior team than the Phillies. The bullpen has reverted back to those very dark days. This was yet another terrible loss.

  84. I’ll be honest, I don’t get why Cyr was called up, let alone brought into this game. Probably doesn’t matter because we just can’t win against the Mets for some reason, but it was a dumb move.

    Also, I was already not a fan of giving up a good prospect for an aging RP before this game. And I certainly won’t write Robertson off after one bad inning. But I just have a sinking feeling that this is the start of a bullpen meltdown that costs us a playoff run.

    We’re still in good position to make the playoffs, and once there anything can happen. However the past few days have not instilled confidence in anyone. If we can’t win when we hold the opposition to 1 or 2 runs, and we can’t win with 9 runs scored, then there’s not many avenues for us to win.

    Maybe missing the playoffs will be karma for the organization’s baffling decision to let a freaking Mets fan throw out the first pitch. That’d be the one silver lining; hurting their wallets after that garbage.

    1. Two hopefuls:
      1. Seranthony’s news this morning was more encouraging than yesterday morning…so maybe he will be back after his Il stint when they face the Marlins.
      2. Looks like Harper will be back in the lineup after they return from the West Coast..let’s hope so.

    2. Robertson throw 2 innings and 37 pitches the previous night. Not sure he should have been in the game at all.

      Didn’t think Thomson had a good day managing the pen.

      1. I don’t really know what more he could’ve done, he got 4.1 innings out of Gibson and they’re coming off a double header. Their aces couldn’t give them 6 innings two games before. It happens. They need 6 solid out of Syndergaard and an offensive explosion or they’re probably going to lose tomorrow as well. The pen got overworked with the starters not doing their job. You probably don’t have Robertson and Brogdon tomorrow. Probably not Hand either, and maybe not Alvarado but maybe you stretch him for a back-to-back-to-back game.

        Once they fell behind they couldn’t bring Coonrad in, you need him tomorrow and he can probably give you six outs. He’s probably not pitching back to back days yet. Only so much they could do. They need to DFA Cyr and bring up someone like Appel/Sanchez or maybe McGarry.

        1. Cant worry about tomorrow today. Beat the mets first. They can get some minor league arms in the ballpark by tomorrow. Also, they are calling for rain from sun up to sun down tomorrow, doubt they even play. Coonrad should have started the 9th. Also not sure why Cyr was the choice.

        2. Would have saved Alvarado for the 9th and used Coonrad in the 6th or 7th instead. Also, Alvarado had an easy inning, could he have given them 2 innings so they had Hand available for the 9th?

          Just don’t think using Robertson to close after he struggled to end the 9th the previous night was a good plan. Overall I think that Thomson has done a good job but not today.

          1. Maybe Alvarado would’ve come out for 2 if there wasn’t the rain delay, we don’t know. Brogdon also should be able to hold a 3 run lead.

  85. Silver lining? 6 no run innings pitched by Painter. 3 hits, no walks, 8 Ks. Again, I cannot possibly believe there are ten prospects in the minors better than Painter. He’s a top 10 prospect right now regardless of what the lists say. He’s 19 and he just keeps cruising – he does the same thing (dominate) at every level. Amazing.

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