Trade Deadline, 2022

When you wake up Monday morning, there will be less than 36 hours left before the expiration of the trade deadline.


So far, Trader Dave has acquired light-hitting infielder, Edmundo Sosa for LHP Jojo Romero.  Sosa made 75 starts in 2021 and slashed .271/.346/.389/.735 in 326 plate appearances with 8 doubles, 4 triples, 6 HR, 4/8 SB, 17 BB (5.2%),  63 K (19.3%), and an OPS+ of 104.

This year, Sosa isn’t faring as well.  He’s slashing .189/.244/.270/.515 in 31 starts and 131 PA with 7 XBH, 3/4 SB, 4 BB (3.1%), 38 K (29.0%), and an OPS+ of 49.

Sosa plays mostly SS.  He had a Fld% of .961 there in 2021, and .972 in 2022.  He hasn’t played second base this season (.987 in 2021) and has made 6 starts at third this season (1.000).

Johan Camargo was optioned to add Sosa to the active roster.

I don’t really understand this move.  Perhaps there is a companion move in the next day-and-a-half.


It appears that sellers have slowed the trade market with the return they demand for their trade pieces.  So far, it looks like the Phillies are sticking to their guns and not overpaying with prospects for 2-month rentals.

Teams are asking for top prospects and the Phillies are saying no.  I hope this continues.

I think it is apparent that I am loathe to trade any of our guys.  Of all the trades I’ve read here and elsewhere, the only one that appealed to me was Miller and Ortiz for Perez (TX).  It looked like a fair deal, but it still took me a few days to accept it.  However, I hear Perez is now off the table.  Texas is only 7.5 games out of the wild card.  LOL.


After their weekend choke against the Cubs, the Phillies rebounded to win a series against Atlanta and sweep a 4-game series from Pittsburgh.

The 6-1 week has lifted the Phillies back into the third wild card slot and to a season-high 8 games over .500 at 55-47.

Next up, two games in Atlanta then four at home against Washington.


One thing that bothers me is the acceptance of lower batting averages among today’s stars and regular players.  For instance, Kyle Schwarber was an All-Star and is slashing .204/.306/.501/.807.  He has 33 HR, an OPS+ of 124, and a WAR of 1.1.  (Sosa comes to town with a 0.6 WAR.)

So far this season, the team totals are .248/.311/.416/.728.  For comparison, I cherry-picked the 1977 Phillies.  Their team slash was .279/..346/.448/.794, but that’s including their pitchers.  Without pitchers, they slashed .287/.356/.463/.819.

The 2020 Phillies best hitters are Harper (.318) Bohm (.299), and Segura and Stubbs (.275).  The only starter from the 1977 team UNDER .275 was Mike Schmidt with a .274 batting average (667 PA, 38 HR, 101 RBI, 104 BB, 132 K).  The starters and guys who had more than 100 PA –

  1. C Bob Boone .284/.780 in 495 PA
  2. C Tim McCarver .320/.936 in 205 PA
  3. 1B Richie Hebner .285/.864 in 466 PA
  4. 1B Davey Johnson .321/.952 in 186 PA
  5. 2B Ted Sizemore .281/.700 in 581 PA
  6. SS Larry Bowa .280/.652 in 675 PA
  7. 3B Mike Schmidt .274/.967 in 667 PA
  8. LF Greg Luzinski .309/.988 in 645 PA
  9. CF Garry Maddox .292/.772 in 604 PA
  10. RF Jay Johnstone .284/.828 in 411 PA
  11. RF Bake McBride .339/.956 in 314 PA
  12. OF Jerry Martin .260/.774 in 238 PA
  13. UT Tommy Hutton .309/.813 in 95 PA

Jerry Martin had the lowest average at .260.  I included Tommy Hutton because he had the 13th most PA.

I know the argument that pitchers are so much better.  But, I also think that hitters don’t know how to hit like they did back then.  There is so much attention paid to HRs, distance, exit speed, and launch angle that it doesn’t pay to hit for average anymore.

The profiles for corner infielders and corner outfielders always included HRs (and the ever less important RBIs).  But, the skill positions up the middle have been infected with similar expectations as the players got bigger and home runs became more of an expected outcome for shortstops, second basemen, and center fielders.

This wasn’t meant to be a “shift” piece.  But, banning or restricting the shift will only increase the number of singles by left-handed batters.  I’ll stop there.

Anyway, I marvel at the offensive ability of that 1977 team.  One of these weeks, I’ll share how lame I think most of today’s pitchers are.


If nothing else, this gives you a place to talk about the Phillies for the week.

418 thoughts on “Trade Deadline, 2022

  1. I am not sure the below link is going to work, but in case it doesn’t, it is to a short article in the Phila Inquirer about how Alex Bohm asked hitting coach Long how he could improve his batting, and the suggestion Long worked out for him led to immediately and awesome improvement. It seemed Nick C has also been batting well recently but there was public commentary about how he has his own private hitting instructor. I wonder how the various hitting coaches work together? https://www.inquirer.com/phillies/phillies-alec-bohm-paul-goldschmidt-20220729.html

  2. In Dave’s news conference about a week ago he said that the asking prices were very high, and he expected them to go lower right before the deadline. This fits with his refusal to trade any of our top guys. Which I have been hoping is the case. Still guessing it’s Thor or Quintana, I haven’t heard any CF chatter the past few days, and always a BP arm possibility.

    1. matt….perhaps also Reds’ Mahle if they ask for a reasonable return…..but he is not a two-month rental so that could be a challenge acquiring him.

      1. If I’m the Reds, after seeing what I got for Castillo, I’m asking for a top 50 prospect as the centrepiece for a Mahle trade. Looking at Mahle’s numbers, I think he’s a 3/4 pitcher so asking a high price is the way to go.

      2. Instead of a Mahle or Male- type we could bring Kent Emanuel up from LHV for similar production or keep Falter in lineup. Low cost and wouldn’t lose any prospects.

        1. With all due respect, Mahle is a much better pitcher than those two guys. He’s a #3 and you acquire him thinking you can tweak him and get more (ala Wheeler).

    2. It’s going to go down to the wire for teams with rental players. There’s no way the Pirates will extend Quintana a QO. Thor already received a QO previously so he can’t get another one. Although the Angels do their own thing so he might not get traded. Martin Perez being out of the mix is shocking, but the Rangers have money to burn so maybe they might give him a QO.

  3. I agree that there’s no apparent reason for the Sosa trade yet but I’m sure other moves are coming today or tomorrow.
    Yes the 1977 team won over 100 games before they fell in the playoffs (after the worst single game loss in my life of sports fandom). They could pitch also. Oh well, back to 2022 (not 2020 haha).
    There will certainly be some moves in the next 36 hours. Miller, Rojas and Ortiz seem the most likely to get moved. Plus Segura will be back soon. We’ll see soon.

  4. IMO;
    Getting Segura & Harper for nothing. Along with the reimmergence of Nick C, Bohm & JT, then the progression of Stott, Vierling, Ranger, Falter & the bullpen allows us to keep our top prospects and ride the wave thru to the end of the season.

    1. Denny…..fair points for sure…….I still think Dave D will try to shore up the pitching staff……Quintana or Thor seem to be the two most discussed often….and the asking price may not be exorbitant

      1. SP is likely the only spot they really need to address. A RP to replace Familia would be good too, but they do have Coonrod, and Sheriff working back to the majors and have Appel (temporary on roster as of now) as an option. Emmanuel, Sanchez, and Falter are the back up SP.

        1. Do not rest on LHP Mike Plassmeyer…another lefty acquired last month.
          He may surprise a few people.

  5. I think the Cardinals will pass on Soto due to the young MLB players and Top 100 prospects the Nationals want from STL in return. Instead they go get pitching and I could see them get both Quintana and Thor. The asking price for both those two are less than Soto.

    1. That’s very depressing, Hawkeye! I agree they don’t outbid the Padres, for instance, but we can’t let them get both Thor and Quintana, and us get neither. I still think the deadline moves will materially impact which team makes the WC, and I haven’t given up on passing the Padres also.

      1. Quintana’s had a very good year, but he’s older and has been up and down in his career. Sure, he’s probably an upgrade over Falter, but you don’t want to give a top prospect for him. Perhaps the PIrates would trade Quintana for Falter – it wouldn’t be a bad trade for either team, really. Falter definitely has upside, but they need a playoff starter now and Quintana could start a playoff game and he’s a pretty nice upgrade for the rotation as a whole.

        As for Thor, I’ll pass on that. His velocity is way, way down this year. He’s not close to being the same guy we remember. I have no idea if he’ll recover that velocity in the next few years, but there is no evidence that he is doing so now. TJ surgery is much more of a wild card than people realize. Most guys don’t miss a beat once they get to full health. Others are never the same.

        1. Spot on with Thor….his year-to-year FB velo.
          2015 97.62
          2016 98.79
          2017 99.47
          2018 97.78
          2019 97.91
          2021 93.90
          2022 94.61

  6. Focus of attention seems to be a SP lately. Crickets on CF help. If these once slumping bats keep warming up, that may be enough to get the WC. I see Thor in our rotation, perhaps starting tomorrow in Atlanta. A controllable arm like Mahle probably loses us a top prospect. Personally, I don’t see Mahle being worth one, although Dombrowski reportedly prefers players who’ll be around beyond 2022.

  7. I agree with Romus, Denny. I think there will be a move. I don’t think they are counting on Falter to start, and will most likely move him to the BP after the deadline. I think the whole “looking for a SP to start a Playoff game” is stretching things a bit. I think they are looking for a SP slightly better than Gibson or Ranger, not necessarily a true #3. Because that guy would cost one of the prospects, or more, that they don’t want to move. I don’t see how we can’t move one of our Catchers, maybe not today or tomorrow, but aren’t we facing 40 Man issues with too many Cs?

  8. I see a team that is very good and is one more star away from being great. I also see a team that has a 3-4 year window and then it will need a massive re-build.
    – Wheeler and Nola are the best 1-2 SPs in MLB.
    – Ranger and Gibson are very good SPs too. Adding in a starter like Perez makes our SP excellent. Maybe top 5 in baseball.
    – DD has done an excellent job upgrading our Bullpen. We currently rank 7th in MLB. Getting a guy like Bard for the back end would give us a top 5 Bullpen too.
    – Our lineup is good, but not great. Currently ranked 14th, which is good considering that we lost Harper for most of the season.

    So, IMO we have a chance to go from yery good to great with one stellar deadline. I think that we need one more good SP, one more good bullpen arm and I think that we need one more stud hitter. I would go all in on Soto, but I seem to be alone. As good as our team is, I think that we are clearly behind the upper echelon clubs. Adding in an MVP candidate like Soto dramatically changes our club. We would maximize our key 3-4 year window.

    1. Agreed on the RP and SP upgrades would square those areas up. I do think adding Segura would be an upgrade over Gregorius in the line up and Harper would be the big bat when he returns (hoping for no set backs)

    2. I know that there is a reluctance to trade prospects…but if now is not the time to go all in, (for controllable assets), then when is?
      – We have 2 elite SPs in their prime. and 2 other very good SPs
      – We have a good bullpen
      – Harper was on path for a top 3 MVP vote again this year.
      – Schwarber is leading the NL in homers
      – Castellanos will hit. may already be turning the corner.

      a mega deal for a controllable star makes a lot of sense to me.

  9. I know everybody wants CF help but I think Vierling out there is just fine defensively and he will be totally ok for a 9 hole hitter. I mean, here’s a projected lineup, without making any trades:

    Schwarber LF
    Castellanos RF
    Harper DH
    Hoskins 1B
    Bohm 3B
    Stott SS
    Realmuto C
    Segura 2B
    Vierling CF

    1. Acquiring a CF allows you to shift Vierling over to RF more and/or LF which greatly improves their defense which makes the pitching staff better if you can only upgrade marginally.

      If I acquired a CF (ala Michael A. Taylor) I’m putting Vierling in right and Castellanos back at DH with Hall being a lefty masher off the bench until Harper comes back.

  10. I am going all in on Rodon in hopes that you can resign him. He would be great with a top 3 of Wheeler, Rodon and Nola and bottom with Saurez, either Gibson or Eflin and fillers of Sanchez or Falter

    1. Carlos Rodon is a FA in 2024. And getting Rodon will almost certainly cost you Abel and Painter. Do you want to go that route?

      1. He has an opt out if he accumulated 110 innings which he already has. It will still cost a lot but I don’t think Abel or Painter

        1. Forgot about the opt out. The Giants will most certainly give him the QO.

          Still, Rodon is a difference maker. He’ll still cost you somebody like O’Hoppe or McGarry. You ok with that?

    2. FYI – Suarez is not a bottom of the rotation pitcher. Last year he was elite. This year he struggled a bit to start, but is rounding into form and making adjustments. He’s a 3 at least – and could be even better than that going forward.

      1. Suarez is a 3/4 for sure. He’s not overpowering but he’s finding ways to get it done with location and deception.

        And you keep 3/4 pitchers. They don’t grow on trees, they are hard to find too.

        1. I think Suarez is better than that. He’s at least a solid 3 and might even be a 2. Last year he pitched like a 1. Even this year, where he has had to regroup and started slow, he has pitched like a 3.

          1. catch, I think the issue is the team’s concern that they can’t get enough innings out of him. Come September, he may not have anything left to give. I don’t know how valid the concern is, but I do know that it has been mentioned enough to make me believe it is an issue in the team’s mind.

          2. Since June 2…Suarez has had Game Scores of 51 or better in 6 of his last 8 starts……and the two lower games, were in the 40s…..not clunkers at all.
            He definitely is trending upwards and I think he is a sold 3 in this rotation.

          3. He did pitch like a 1/2 last season, but I consider that an outlier year.

            I give 2/3 rankings as pitchers with a true elite pitch. I consider Aaron Nola a 2/3 because of his curveball. Nola also had an outlier year in 2018 when he pitched like a 1/2. He also pitched like a 3/4 last season.

            Suarez doesn’t have an elite pitch, but still gets the job done. That’s a 3/4 pitcher in my book.

            4/5 pitchers, like Falter, are those who are good enough to stick on a ML starting rotation, but you’re always looking to replace them if you can. Kyle Gibson is another 4/5 pitcher.

            Now just because Suarez is a 3/4 pitcher, it doesn’t mean he can’t have a better year. It also means he could have a worse year. Either way, you still keep him because he has a talented arm.

  11. I honestly do not know what to do with O’Hoppe. Granted, he is a top prospect for us, but he is blocked for quite a while. JT is not going anywhere. I am not giving him away, but whether or not it’s this deadline, I see him as part of a package to get a Star quality player. I am not trading him and McGarry for Rodon, and I would be surprised if SF moves him. I am concerned with what the Padres and Cards may do. Padres seem to be in on everyone, and seem to have no untouchables in their farm. The Cards are probably pivoting to SP and in on the same guys we are. A real interesting next 31 hours.

    1. matt…..concerning the Padres…I think Preller could eb getting a little anxious about getting to the WS….not sure how long they will wait for his teams to reach that end.
      So that could be a factor in him selling the farm now.
      Machado is 30, Tatis has some health issues that could be chronic, Hosmer is aging and close to leaving….Preller has pitching, but the window may not be wide open, and the Dodgers are not going away…..so he seems to be getting antsy.

      1. The Padres farm system has good depth, but their top 100 guys are not close with the exception of Campusano. I’m sure the Padres want Campusano to take the catcher position but he hasn’t been able to hit ML pitching in his short stints. And he’s going to be turning 24 at the end of the season.

        I’m not sure if the Padres have enough high talent to go after Juan Soto. That said, they definitely have the depth to go after any pitching they want.

        I think the Phillies high end talent (Painter, Abel, O’Hoppe, McGarry) can rival most teams. Our depth is getting better (Brown, Miller, Lee).

    2. How about Sean Rodriquez for Carlos Rodon? He is still in our system (as a coach), but Kapler is in SF.

  12. He and DiPoto always seem to be the most active and DiPoto made his big move in getting Castillo. We haven’t seen that big DD trade yet, and while I am not feeling it now, I wonder when it will occur. I think, and I am repeating myself, that he was being honest in saying the top prospects are not being moved. I rank them as Painter, Abel, McGarry, O’Hoppe and Brown. I do think Miller and Marchan and Rojas and Ortiz have value. I am at that point where I keep checking every site I can, looking for any tidbits. Completely quiet on us and CF, and next to nothing on the BP.

    1. I think Rojas has the most value out of the bunch you mentioned, but other teams can easily beat that in trade value. There’s no way Rojas will get any of the heavy guys, and I doubt he gets you Plesac (which I don’t want). I’m not even sure Rojas will get you Michael A. Taylor on his own.

      As I’ve mentioned previously, you have to give talent to get talent. And if the Phillies are hoarding their top guys, they’re not getting anybody significant.

  13. The cost for Soto must be astronomical (rightly so) and considering what the M’s gave for Castillo it truly is a sellers market.

    DD has to try and thread the needle here with one arm tied behind his back.

    And there is just no way to know what his convictions are about the club once it does get healthy and then beyond this season.

    1. According to MLBTR, Soto’s market is holding things up. Personally I think LAD lands him. After it’s done, this may be an historically busy last day and a half of the trade deadline.

      1. If we allow LAD to get him, then we are playing for second place in the NL.

        If we allow NYM to get him, then we are playing for second place in the NLE.

        If we make a bold move and get Soto, then we catapult into the upper echelon teams. Go for it DD.

        1. vi/..Soto and Harper plus the others…yeah baby!
          ….but the issue …Lerner will not trade him to a NL-East team….he said as much last week when the Mets name came up.

          1. talk is cheap. I find it hard to believe that he would turn down a superior offer from the Phillies just to trade him to another NL team.

  14. Jim, there are few Phillie related items I am more passionate about than the 1977 Phillies club [only 1964 has a dearly place in my heart!]. Honestly, I still tell people that I believe that ’77 team was the GREATEST team in Phils history, better than 1980, 2008-2011, better than any Phillie team in history.

    Actually, if you were not fortunate to be a Phillie phan in ’77 you simply cannot imagine what a juggernaut that club was, especially offensively. And it all came together on June 15, which in those days was the ML trading deadline. The Phils were wallowing in mediocrity, 31-28 and a distant 7 games out of the NL East lead. Then it happened, a move that that transformed that club…the trade acquisition of outfielder Bake McBride from St. Louis. McBride was a great hitter, a very speedy runner and an excellent defensive right fielder. I remember the night it happened, I began writing imaginary lineups on a piece of paper and it always came out the same…he was the absolute perfect fit.

    From July 16 through the end of the regular season the Phils record was 70-33, a nearly .675 winning pace to finish the year at 101-61. And they did it completely on merit. I could spend hours talking about several individual games where they literally blasted teams but here are just a few. A week after the trade the then mighty Cincinnati Reds came to Veterans Stadium for a 3 game series and the Phils took 2 of 3 but in the finale, after falling way behind the Phils pulverized the Reds and won 15-9. Larry had a particularly interesting night with his line looking thusly: 4, 4, 4, 4. 4 at bats, 4 runs, 4 hits, 4 RBI [ a grand slam no less!]

    Prior to the acquisition of McBride the Chicago Cubs lead the pack and in a very crucial mid August 4 game series at Wrigley Field, with the Cubs a mere 3 games behind the Phils and very much still in the race, the Phils proceeded to win all 4, 10-3, 10-7, 10-2 and 4-2. Oh, and the game immediately proceeding this series the Phils had defeated the Montreal Expos 10-5 which meant they had scored in double digits four straight games. This blitz occurred right in middle of a 13 game winning streak and after losing one game they proceeded to win 6 more for an astounding 19 of 20 run.

    Offensively, they were literally two complete teams with an outstanding starting lineup led by Schmidt and Luzinski and had an 8 man bench, all of whom could have been starters on other teams. The team used only 9 pitchers and Steve Carlton was brilliant with 23 wins and righty Larry Christenson won 19, including a finishing 13-1 kick. The 4 man bullpen was outstanding, McGraw, Garber, Reed and Brusstar. Veteran Jim Kaat was the spot starter and Jim Lonborg and Randy Lerch were the other two starters.

    Unfortunately, it all unraveled in a mere 10 minutes on what would forever be called Black Friday. I have no desire to relive that horrible 9th inning with the Phils a mere 1 strike from winning on several occasions. Sadly, those 10 minutes forever tainted what I always felt was the great Phillie team ever, still do. Some will insist that the 1980 win made up for this but not for me. Although both teams had several of the same players, the teams were different. in 1977, the Phils were a young, exuberant club, not yet stained by the excesses of free agency [which only occurred prior to the 1977 season.] By 1980, free agency had changed how phans viewed players and teams and there was already a strange hardness to the players that was not yet there in ’77. You had to be there to understand this.

    Anyways, thanks for bringing up this team, Jim, and if I have brought back some wonderful memories, all the better!

    1. “By 1980, free agency had changed how phans viewed players and teams and there was already a strange hardness to the players that was not yet there in ’77”
      ….on that note of free agency, coming to town next weekend …Pete Rose…..gave that team a charge….will like to see the crowd reaction when he is introduced.

  15. Hader to the Padres, Lamet and Glasser are the 2 names I know going to Milwaukee. That’s a surprise to me, with the Brewers leading their Division. Montas appears to be getting close, and rumor is the Yanks.

    1. A stunning development. If I was a Brewers fan, I would be pissed. Even though Hader is having a subpar year, he’s still a top 3 closer. And cheaping out on Hader’s final year of arbitration just looks bad, especially since they are in 1st place.

      I assume Gasser is the centerpiece of the deal? He’s in high-A and won’t be helping anytime soon. Dinelson Lamet hasn’t really been that good and he’s under control for 1 more year. Esteury Ruiz has hit in the minors but he’s already 23 and hasn’t hit in the bigs yet. And it’s not like Ruiz was a former top prospect.

      Just a weird deal for the Brewers. They’re in first place but it seems like they are preparing themselves to check out if they get caught by the Cardinals.

      1. Brewers are feeding their system,…Stearns knows Hader will be costly soon,like arb4 next year and then FA in ’24…. plus I think they like Wiliams closing now…his FIP as a set up guy has been outstanding….Hader’s FIP now is north of 3, he probably could use new life and a change of scenery.

      2. There has to be a moment that you go for it. Nibbling around the edges with guys like Gibson won’t make the leap over teams like the Dodgers or Mets or Braves.

        DD has to do something bold or we are just playing for a wild card and an early exit.

        1. Wild Card is fine, they have as good of a chance as anyone to win a best of three with Wheeler/Nola/Ranger.

          The Dodgers aren’t unbeatable, we went into LA and almost swept them out. Anything can happen in the playoffs.

  16. The Angels have now stopped listening to offers for Ohtani. Not surprising, he’s a cash cow for Arte Moreno. Ohtani has godlike status in Anaheim.

    The hot rumor is Frankie Montas to the Yankees with #36 Oswald Peraza as the centerpiece of the deal.

  17. v1, I understand what you are saying. However, I don’t have any sense that the team is going to do something any of us would consider bold. And, I don’t know that Abel and Painter and McGarry and O’Hoppe gets Soto. But, I do know that if St. Louis gets him, that is a game changer for them, and really hurts us.

    1. matt…what if the Cards have to throw in Dakota Hudson into that same package along with Gorman, Carlson and Liberatore!
      That puts a dent into their starting rotation.

      1. Romus, I thought that the Cards were going to focus on SP, not Soto, but I could be wrong. They already need more SP, so losing some definitely hurts. But, Soto with Arenado and Goldschmidt is awfully good. I just hope Soto stays in Washington through the deadline, or he goes somewhere other than SD or St.L. Also, I don’t like worrying about what other teams are doing, I want us to be adding help that makes us better. And, hoping my faith in DD is not misplaced.

      2. I would be surprised if Soto goes to anyone but LAD. The Cardinals don’t play in that payroll stratosphere. Few teams have both farm capital AND financial resources which the Dodgers have.

        1. That is a fair point.
          Would be disingenuous if the Cardinals decide to go out and get Soto then try paying him $35M+ AAV……as a small market team…with Arenado and Goldey still getting big bucks………but as long as they stay under the tax threshold anything is possible.

      1. Andy Pages alone probably profiles better than any position player in our system.
        Fangraphs has him at 4 in the Dodgers system:
        “His speed under way and his defensive instincts give him a chance to stay in center field, which would obviously give Pages a little more margin for error as a hitter. If he stays in center, he has a star-level ceiling. If not, then he has a whiff-prone, traditional right field profile driven by obvious impact power.”

      2. You have to be all ears in Soto, but .. I still don’t think Lerner allows a trade to Philly,both Harper & Soto. I feel he

        im sure you find him a spot, where
        do you play Soto?

        2B- Segura
        LF- Schwarber
        DH- Harper
        CF- Soto
        RF- Castellanos
        1B- Hoskins
        C-Realmuto
        SS- Stott
        3B- Camargo/New player acquired

        Not the best defense for this year, but something you’d have to cleanup with a depleted farm

  18. Mancini to the Astros and Yanks get Montas. A busy day. I don’t think the Yankees overpaid at all. Peraza didn’t even get included and Volpe is their top guy, and this doesn’t seem that big of a return for the A’s. Not even close to what the Reds got for Castillo. The Walsichuk guy is a future RP.

    1. The main concern for me is that Waldichuk is already 24. Pipeline still has him at #70 overall but yes, the Yankees got Montas for a lot less than Castillo.

      Not sure why the A’s blinked like this.

  19. On the good news front, Bryce had the pins removed today. Will do flexibility and strength exercises as the fracture is healed, and the goal is to get him back before the end of the month. And, v1, without debating whether the proposed trade by us is better or not, the team isn’t doing it. I don’t think Rizzo is sending Soto here, and I don’t think DD even makes an offer.

  20. Let’s face it. Soto most likely goes to the Dodgers. They have the most money, hundreds of prospects, and the grit to do the deal. They have consistently gotten the best player, Betz, Turner, Mad Max whenever they want – every other team is standing around with hands in their pockets because they can’t afford the player capital to acquire this sort of player. If Preller does end up with Soto he will have bankrupted the franchise, if not today, then tomorrow. Cardinals can’t use Soto unless he can pitch too – they need to fill 2 holes, offense and pitching. Yankees don’t care because if they did – they likely would already have him in the fold. They needed pitching anyway.

    As a Phillies fan – I like Soto – but not enough to trade away the future. Once all hands are on deck we have enough offense. And I do agree, Soto is a generational talent – but maybe Painter and Abel will be too ?

  21. Maybe we got Tommy Pham? He was traded to an unknown team. The way info flows, it’s funny that the team is unknown, just that the Reds agreed to trade him.

  22. BoSox got him, and Reese McGuire for Jake Diekman. Seems Boston is adding and maybe subtracting? No idea what their plan is. I can’t believe they think they can get a WC spot. McGuire replaces Vasquez, I guess? Less than 23 hours to go. I haven’t seen anything Phils related since Jayson Stark’s this morning.

  23. If the price is exorbitant, don’t pay it. Making the wrong move is far worse than making no move at all.

  24. It’s a value equation, do we keep our guys who may still make us better that your guy(s) or not?

  25. I think the package that the Brewers got for Hader was very underwhelming. Phillies could have easily beaten it IMO.

    First the 2 MLB relievers. Yes, Rogers was SD’s closer but he also currently has a -0.3 WAR with a 4.35 ERA. Lamet was once a top prospect, but he is 29 now with a -0.6 WAR and a 9.49 ERA. So they got two hard throwing MLB relievers, but neither is playing well. Both are negative WAR players.

    Let’s put the Phillies comp as Jose Alvarado and Bellatti or Brogdon.

    Then the prospects, Gasser sits 90-93 with his fastball and is projected as a #4 or #5 SP. He is a 23yo College draft pick a A+ with a 4.18 ERA. Nothing special there. IMO, Ben Brown is a much better prospect than Gasser. Ruiz was the 24th rated prospect on Fangraphs and has a 35 hit tool. He has 70 speed, but as we know you can’t steal first base. Fangraphs has a 35/45 fielding tool. that profile kinda reminds me of Mickey. Both are about the same age.

    So let’s say the Phillies package to beat the Padres for Hader is Alverado, Bellatti, Moniak and Brown. I don’t see how DD doesn’t do that deal. Hader on the back of our BP makes our team instantly better.

  26. v1, this argument makes a lot of sense. I just don’t think DD was looking at a Closer. You are right about Lamet. He was once upon a time a highly regarded prospect. I think DD has his sights set on someone with a definite line separating who he will move and who he won’t, and is waiting until the last moment to get what he wants at his price. At least I am hoping he has a plan.

    1. I still remember 2008 when Lidge and Madson made games only 7 innings. If you weren’t winning in the first 7 innings the game was over. Hader and Ser ‘Anthony could have been the same.

  27. Oviedo and Nunez to Pirates. Outside of both being Cuban born players, I know nothing about them. Who would that equate to from us?

    1. It’s not perfect but I’m thinking something like Sanchez and Ortiz. I could be wrong because I haven’t read the scouting reports on the Pirates’ guys, plus Nunez has better numbers than Ortiz and is younger. I dunno if there’s a one-to-one match in our system.

  28. My WAG tonight is the Phillies make a deal for Thor. Prospects to the Angels is anyones guess except for Abel, Painter and McGarry. I still think O’Hoppe, Miller or Ortiz might be dealt.

    1. Truth be told – Thor has been overpaid this year. Stated differently, he has not been worth his salary and therefore has a negative value. Still, someone will pay something for him but it shouldn’t be a top 10 prospect.

    2. O’Hoppe for an already overpaid Thor is a really bad trade in my humble opinion. I could live with Ortiz, Miller or even Rojas being the headliner, with a prospect below #20 thrown in.

  29. I want Thor as a rental/contract season/playoff run. He’s throwing 94+ watching him mowe down the Mets. He’ll go for cheap… Let’s go.

    1. The Phillies are interested.

      Look, he’s not a bad #3/4 right now even if he doesn’t gain velocity. He’s overpaid, but that’s a cost this team can easily absorb. If the prospect package isn’t too heavy (and it shouldn’t be), it’s certainly an upgrade. The top 4 pitchers (Abel, Painter, McGarry and Brown) should not be included, nor should O’Hoppe – I think the conversation starts with Miller or Rojas.

      1. Thor’s velo has ticked down…sometimes it happens post-TJ for a year or two…it also took him awhile longer than usual coming back from the surgery, so he may never see hi-90s again….who knows for sure.

        But agree…no O’Hoppe, and Miller and Rojas would seem to be more than enough for a two month rental.

        1. Miller OR Rojas – you don’t get two top 10 prospects for an expensive (relatively) #3/4 who hasn’t pitched to his salary.

  30. Hinkie deadline forecast ⬇

    Mostly sunny w/a 80% chance of Nathan Eovaldi.

    Outside shot at a multi player storm with the Guardians.

    1. Nate Eovaldi was one of the best pitchers in the big leagues last year. Even though he’s had a down year, the Red Sox are pseudo selling, and he’s a rental, I think it would still cost alot.
      I think DD is trying to work between the margins. Nate Eovaldi definitely fits the bill as somebody who can start a postseason game though, but if Thor costs less from a prospect perspective (because the Angels are an inferior organization than the Red Sox) we should probably just go that route.

      1. Eovaldi will cost something like Miller and a lottery ticket. His value is down and he would be a nice addition. By the way, below the radar Billy Sullivan is really coming along. Don’t be surprised if he becomes a legit BP piece in the next few years.

  31. Maybe I just value our minor leaguers more than MLB GMs. I feel we could have easily beat what went for Quintana, Hader, or Montas

  32. Boston’s acquiring and not trading away as they prep for a WC run. So the Eovaldi scenario would take a prospect that DD has identified as “non-touchable.” Ain’t going to happen..

    1. I hear what you’re saying, Hawkeye, But why would a team gearing up for a WC run, trade their starting catrcher (the guy most responsible for mentoring their pitchers through this WC run)? Sounds more like a stance to take when Chaim Bloom looks to up the price for his other rentals.

    2. I’m not so sure of that. Maybe Bailey Falter would be of interest as someone they can plug in the rotation now and develop for next year.

  33. Hinkie, what say ye on this proposal?…

    PHILLIES get:
    cf Ramon Laureano – age 28, arb eligible thru 2024
    rhp Paul Blackburn – age 28, arb eligible thru 2025

    A’S get:
    rhp Mick Abel
    cf Johan Rojas

    1. mark … I would not do it. For me, CF isn’t really a priority right now. Vierling should be fine … as long as the best paid players on this team are performing. Having said that … I would have mucho interest in Steven Kwan. Kwan could not only start in CF, but would be the most ideal leadoff hitter they could find. Cleveland is in store for another winter of having to add a healthy class of prospects to their 40 man. They had the same problem (?) last year, but because of the lockout, there was no rule 5 draft. That won’t be the case this December. The Guardians will have to swap out some current members of their 40 man or older prospects needing to be added this winter for younger players further away from 40 man decisions.

      Also look for Ryan Sherriff to be a part of whatever trade Dombrowski makes. They DFA’d him the other day (even after trading JoJo). Falter will almost certainly head to the BP after today’s transactions.

      1. Hinkie, I would do Abel and Rojas for Kwan, even though you are giving up serious talent. Kwan plays like a winner. The Phillies need guys who can hit around .300. Having Kwan and Bohm batting one and two sets the table just right

    2. Oh my gosh, no, no, no.

      One way to doom yourself to baseball purgatory is to trade elite future talents for current average talents. You do your best not to trade Mick Abel at all, but if you do trade (and I’m NOT saying they should), you only do so for a big difference-maker. Laureano isn’t a bad player at all, but he’s not a guy you trade a potential top of the rotation stopper for. Add the upside of Rojas and it’s no doubt, don’t do it for me.

      1. Agree with you Catch. Bad deal for Phillies. Too rich. I have no problem trading those prospects, but it should be for a premium talent. Not a 4th starter and a poor hitting CF. I also agree w Hinkie, CF is not our issue.

    3. I would’ve moved Able for Montas but not Laureano. Would rather focus on defense (Michael A. Taylor or Victor Robles).

  34. Aron, I think, on paper, it would have been easy to top those offers. But, if we take Painter and Abel and McGarry off the board then the equation changes dramatically. If Brown and O’Hoppe are also not available, then I agree that the other GMs value Rojas and Marchan and Ortiz and Garcia not nearly as highly as the players swapped for the guys you mentioned. I have to have faith that DD gets something done, and if I am wrong, then I will be very disappointed in him. I can’t imagine him not doing something today. I don’t think CF is any longer on the wish list, and I believe Jayson Stark that the focus is squarely on a SP. Falter would move to the BP. So, Thor, and Smyly and Mahle, depending on the cost, are still on my list. And, of course, Eovaldi, if, and a big if, Boston makes him available.

    1. Royals’ 26-year old RHP Keller (FA-2024) and O’s 31-year-old RHP Jordan Lyles (FA-2023) could still be in play….do they move the needle?…not sure.

      What about a OHoppe or Marchan and Rojas trade for Marlin’s Pablo Lopez?

      1. That’s a trade I make, Romus. We have to do something with our C surplus, and I am not sure that Rojas will be able to hit enough. Lopez is controllable, so that makes sense to me. Jayson Stark tweeted that Thor is at the top of our wish list today, and our competition is the Twins and Blue Jays.

      2. There’s no way that Marchan has the same value as O’Hoppe. Not only that, Marchan doesn’t have the value that you think he has. If Marchan was that highly rated, we would have traded him already for a significant player.

        Pablo Lopez is under control for 2 more years. If the Marlins can’t get at least a top 50 prospect, then their GM is not doing their job.

        1. Marchan’s value is in the eye of the beholder….and there could be GMs that see that value.
          Personally, I see O’Hoppe as a better fit as a regular, but switch-hitting defensive catchers do have value.
          ,

          1. I’m not saying Marchan doesn’t value. He has value, as a backup catcher. There’s no numbers that show that he’s starter level. And I’m pretty sure a lot of GMs feel that way also. Wasn’t Andrew Knapp a switch hitting catcher who had a career minor league OPS of .774? Marchan’s career minor league OPS is 654.

            1. If comparing Knapp and Marchan….. Knapp’s value in 2016, at age 24, was higher than his value at the end of his Phillies career.
              Marchan , otoh, still has to have the opportunity to show what he can do with MLB pitching over an extended period of time.
              He probably does profile as the back-up….but until it plays out more for him, there is that unknown….look at the Braves brother of Wilson Contreras..minor league slash of .281/.346/.413 over 7 years…not much power on his minor league resume.

            2. @Romus, Yes, there is an unknown factor with Marchan, but he’s not going to to be playing over JT. Also, the Phillies trading for Garrett Stubbs over giving the backup job to Marchan was not a good look for him. No team is going to be trading for an unknown Marchan who hasn’t done much in his minor league career. You can argue that a lot of teams already have light hitting catchers in their farm system. Marchan is not standing out.

  35. Bloom might be trying to reshuffle the deck to take another run at Devers. Imagine if he’s the GM that goes down as having to trade both Betts and Devers.

    I think the bigger news yesterday were the extensions. Musgrove gave the Pads a huge hometown discount as did Riley to the Braves. Granted Riley was under control through 2026 but still 10/$212 is cheap for his talent.

    1. When this season ends, the Phillies really need to try to extend Nola. If he stays healthy, Nola is going to pitch very effectively into his mid to late 30s – I hope he can stay here and he’s been willing to give the team discounts in the past. While they are at it, they should extend Ranger too. I watched his last start and he’s a virtuoso. Granted it was against the PIrates, but Ranger is developing into a top tier starter and he’s not a soft tosser either – he can bring a little velo when he needs it.

      1. Suarez turns 27 this month…so you will need to buy out his three left arb years, plus I assume tack on three more years.
        The question remains…what would be his AAV?
        Musgrove’s, who is considered a more valued pitcher than Suarez right now, was $20MAAV, but some out there believe he settled for $2/3M less AAV to remain in his home locale with family..
        This off-season, I would consider offering an extension for Suarez, but who knows what AAV would be considered reasonable for him and the team.

        1. I bet it will be much less than you would imagine. I think it would look a bit like the contract that the Phillies gave Aaron Nola. I’m thinking probably 5 years and $55-60 million. If they wait a year or two, it will be a much more expensive deal.

          1. I have no problems offering Ranger that contract you mentioned. And yes, I think he would take it since he’s making the minimum right now and years away from FA.

            1. I forgot he’s not a FA until 2026. I still like the signing, but if he’s 3 1/2 seasons away from FA, I would reduce the price to around $50 m for 5 years and you would want at least two option years at maybe $13m and $15m – the plan would be to have solid cost certainty for at least 3-4 FA years. Still think something like this is doable and wise. There are very few young pitchers who really know how to pitch like Ranger – and his secondary stuff just gets better and better.

        2. LOL I watched his presser last night and there is no question he wanted to pitch in his hometown. And no question he left money on the table assuming health.

          The funny thing was he acknowledged $100 million was more than enough $ to take care of his family. Preller sitting right next to him raised his eyebrows and turns and looks at him when he says that.

          Preller the toad that I imagine he is probably thought to himself wow I need more guys like this.

          1. LOL….AJ Preller was extended to 2026….so better hope he can get more like Musgrove.
            If he gets Soto…forgetaboutit.

      2. Yes and yes. If the LU did what it was supposed to do the pitching we had was more than adequate to be in the division race all season.

        If DD can attain cost certainty with Nola and Ranger is not a FA until 2026 we’ll be in good shape.

      3. I agree, I don’t want Nola testing the open market. I think he’s a valuable piece and he should age well.

    2. DMAR…Acuna, Albies and now Riley…Braves worked three very team favorable contracts for three impact players.
      I can see Fried, possibly 5/6year $125M next season , and then Anderson later at some point being inked along those same lines as Acuna, Albies and Riley.

      1. Don’t forget Olson….

        Alex has been masterful there. He just picked up Grossman from the Tigers too

        Their projected payroll for 2023 $129 million before ARB and they will need a SS. If Dansby wants to be in GA he better take whatever they offered because we all saw Alex is not afraid to move on from you.

        They are well positioned with guys like

        Fried
        Strider
        Wright

        1. DMAR….this is where the Phillies could throw a wrench into Alex A.’s plan for shortstop and Swanson…..Phillies should make him the market AAV for him over 5, plus option 1, years.
          Assume Correa will be out there along with Boegarts and Turner….they may all command more AAV then Swanson…but I like Swanson.
          Interestingly….all four were World Series winning shortstops….which is good to have down the stretch.

    3. I have no idea what the Red Sox are doing. They are flush with cash. They traded away Betts and now they’re playing hardball with Devers and Bogaerts? It sounds easy to tank but getting talent like Devers, Bogaerts, Betts who are good AT THE SAME TIME is like like catching lightning in a bottle. They got lucky once, the odds of it happening again are slim.

    1. If it is indeed Thor,
      …..then, want to see his twitter message to Steve Cohen of the Mets.

      Maybe something like…..’I am bringing my arm and mjölnir, and looking to see you in the Big Apple’

      1. What if the Red Sox traded Vasquez because they like either Sands or Marchan and that is who they would take for Evoldi as a rental plus some other piece like Sanchez…

        I like Evoldi a little more than Thor but either is valuable in our rotation as it stands now.

        1. That could be the case.
          Dombrowski does have the history with Evoldi.
          Assume Bloom is positioning himself for 2023 now .

  36. Salisbury writes that Phillies might seek to include CF Brandon Marsh in Thor trade.

    1. Could be a good fit, I think LAA would also be a good fit for Mickey if they’re interested. Marsh has performed better at the Major League level so obviously would take more.

      1. Angels already have their own OF prospect who they are waiting to break out: Jo Adell. Not sure if they want to take on another one,

        1. I ran a comparison of stats on Marsh vs. Vierling and they are virtually the same with a slight nod to Matt on b. Avg.

          1. Marsh’s K rate is an atrocious 36% compared to Vierlings 20% I’ll stick with Matty V…

            1. Marsh is a better defender. I think it would be a platoon with Vierling also getting time in RF/LF. Much better than Odubel who he’s actually replacing.

              There’s other names I’d rather get.

    2. If Salisbury writes it then it usually happens. Marsh does fit the profile of a player that DD likes to get. DD hates rentals. Marsh is young and under control. Imo, he is pretty similar to Vierling. So not sure what he adds besides depth. So really depends on what they have to give up.

      1. Marsh is LH hitter so gives them a platoon option with Vierling and can wave goodbye to Odubel. Would be a good addition at the margin which is what DD appears to be doing.

  37. Adell for Moniak and giving each a change of scenery would actually be low key cool for both teams. I am still a MM fan, I definitely think a team without much playoff aspirations is going to pluck him, give him everyday at bats and in time hes gonna be an average to above average MLB player. But it might not happen here, you can tell every time he comes to the play hes scared hes going to not get another shot. I think he needs a team to be like “you are our CF for the next 2 months, go out there and lets see what you can do”

    1. I suggested a few months back or when the Angels were in town an Adell for MM swap change of scenery for both deal

      I still like it. I do agree that if MM is going to be successful its likely to be in a new place with a clean slate.

      1. The problem is that Adell’s defense is atrocious. He already has a career dWar of -1.3 in less than a seasons worth of games.

  38. Matt Gelb posts that Segura is in the LHV lineup today, and with a day game tomorrow, he probably won’t be activated before Thursday. Marsh is regarded as a really good defensive OF, and can play all 3 positions. Very much like an OF version of Soto. I trust Jim Salisbury but these “margin” adds are not doing it for me when the Padres and Cards are in on Soto, and they both have already improved their teams. I would like a Salisbury note that we are doing something a bit more needle moving.

    1. It would have been cool if the Phillies at least kicked the tires on Soto. Hes the type of guy you give up Painter/Abel/McGarry/O’Hoppe/Rojas for. I completely agree that I would like to see something a bit more needle moving than a Marsh type, but the Braves did significantly improve their team last season by making mid upgrades at a few positions instead of getting a superstar. IDK, the crappy part is it seems like the type of guy they need to really improve isnt out there (aside from soto of course)

    1. It would be Odubel. Marsh replaces Odubel’s fielding (which is actually good), with the same hitting now but more upside down the road. I assume Vierling and Marsh would roughly platoon with Vierling getting spot starts at the other OF spots. Marsh did have some very good minor league seasons and he’s young – more than a year younger than Vierling.

    1. Personally, I would have added a big arm to the back end of the bullpen. I would have gone after Hader, but certainly Lopez would have been a nice consolation prize. They only had to give up their 22nd ranked prospect for him.

      Still believe that DD will pull something off.

      1. Does Coonrad have options? That would affect (to some degree) what I’d be willing to do there. If he can be optioned then I’d like them to get a Givens or Robertson.

  39. Don’t give up on MM for light hitting Marsh. Mickey has potential power and plays a fine CF.

  40. Deal’s done, Padres get Bell and Soto. I don’t know who the Nats got, but, I am sure it’s a lot. Well, better to SD than the Cards! We need a SP

    1. Thank god it’s over.

      Padres got (former top 15 prospect) Abrams, #21 Hassell, #88 Wood, Susana (14).

      Essentially 2 top 25 prospects and a top 100 guy.

      This rivals the deal the Marlins got for Miguel Cabrera

    1. Having Soto out of the NL East is a good thing. We play SD only 6-7 games per year, and we already finished playing them this season.

      The Phillies still has a whopping 11 games left vs the Nats!

      1. Maybe not so good for us if it accelerates the Nats rebuild…

        Its not like they are small market they can spend in FA too.

        1. I agree, but the odds that one of those players turns into Soto is real slim. Soto is a generational talent.

          1. Yes, but nobody needs to become Juan Soto (or even close to Juan Soto) for this to become a very good trade for the Nationals in a few years.

            1. The Nats did what they had to do and maximized their return. It’s good for them.

              For now, I would rather not having to see Soto for 12+ games per year and taje my chances with the prospects.

            2. Yeah, in the short run this is definitely better for us. The Nationals are tanking in the most obvious of ways.

        2. DMAR……yuo Rizzo is licking his chops with the return.
          Last year’s year return for Scherzer/Turner (Ruiz and Gray) and now this year’s return for Soto/Bell puts them in a very good position down the road….plenty of money also in the bank for FA signings if they want.
          If these yuong talents blossom in a few years…they are a team to reckon with.

    2. See my comment. The last place you want to be this year in second place in the WC standings. It will be MUCH better to be the third team. It’s the difference between face the okay Brewers or Cardinals versus facing the Padres or Braves. When it comes to the WC standings, like Ricky Bobby said “if you ain’t first, you’re last.”

  41. And, Mackenzie Gore. So the Pads #1, #2, #3, #6, and I don’t know where Susana fell in their rankings. So, we would have had to give up Painter, Abel, McGarry, O’Hoppe, Brown and Rojas. Sorry, no from me. And, I don’t know if that would have gotten it done because Abrams, Haskell and Gore are rated higher than our guys.

  42. That haul is insane and there’s no way the Phillies could’ve matched that. Good for the Padres. Much rather he go there than to St. Louis.

    1. It’s like 3 top 25 guys and a top 100. We might not see a haul like that ever again.

  43. Hold up for now as Hosmer was going to Washington as a cost savings for SD. He has a 10 team no-trade, and Washington on it. But, I am betting Preller doesn’t let a small thing like $ stop this deal. Maybe while everyone is concentrating on this, DD can sneak in and get a SP? Hoping, anyway!

      1. They are not going to announce it if it hasn’t been accepted by all parties. But I don’t disagree unless there was something in it for him like another year or two added to his deal

      2. Wash might just agree to DFA him?
        That James Wood kid is huge and putting up great numbers in the minors this year

        Gore was just hurt i thought, though they found no structural damage, but still scary to acquire him right after that.

        1. Hosmer has a lot of money left. Might look to add a 3rd team with Pads/Nats agreeing to eat a bunch of the money to make it work.

          Agree if I’m Hosmer, I’m demanding something happen.

          1. Oh, fear not, Hosmer has the Padres cornered. He’s going to ask for something and he’ll get it (or pretty close to it).

            1. There’s no doubt the Padres paid huge consideration for this deal, but getting Josh Bell too is a real coup.

              As I think about this, it’s clear to me the Phillies will be competing for the third WC spot most likely and, guess what, unless you’re the first WC team (almost certainly won’t happen), it will be BETTER to be the third team. Which would you rather do, face the Braves for 3 games in Atlanta or play the Brewers or Cardinals in their field? That’s a pretty easy choice for me.

              In any event, I think something will still happen, but it’s looking like DD is really focusing on the future too – and good for him! The idea isn’t to make the playoffs (although it’s a step), it’s to put together a championship team and that’s what they are trying to do by keeping their great young arms.

            2. Well, he wouldn’t waive the no trade clause, so he certainly got what he wanted – at least for now.

            3. As I look at this trade, the quality of the young players and prospects acquired by the Nationals is staggering. If you want stack prospects and rebuild a team – damn, this is the way to do it. It would be comparable to the Phillies trading Abel, Painter, McGarry, Miller, Stott and Bohm. Staggering.

          2. Sounds like SD is eating the remaining 3 years of Hosmer’s deal. Would be much easier to flip to a 3rd team if Hosmer refuses to go to DC.

  44. Insane haul that I’m glad the Phillies didn’t attempt and I can understand why both the Dodgers and Cardinals passed.

  45. There seems to be a Plan B in place even if Hosmer refuses to waive the no-trade, so this looks like it is going to happen regardless of what he does.

    1. I kind of want to know what SD was thinking. “Oh yeah, Hosmer, a vet at the end of his career, will definitely waive his no trade clause so he can go to Washington, get paid no more money to do so, leave the beautiful city of SD, and be happy about it?” They had to think he may have some gripes wit this.

  46. I agree with you, Catch. I think being the #3 WC is better than #2, and I am glad that Soto went to SD vs. the Cards. We still need another SP. And, I think, or hope, we can get one without trading the top of our farm. DD is just waiting, I again hope, for the price to come down. This is exactly what he said last week at the press conference. The prices would be sky high and then right before the deadline it becomes a whole different set of negotiations. As you can tell, I am still keeping the faith with DD.

    1. I’ve become a huge fan. DD knows what he is doing and he’s not eager to overpay, which is to his credit.

  47. 👀⬇️

  48. Hoping Bowden is right, Hinkie. I will take either one depending on the cost. Why isn’t Smyly being mentioned? Why wouldn’t the Cubs want to move him?

  49. More from Alex Coffey ⬇

  50. Rumors circulating that Moniak’s included in some deal. Looking more like either Thor or Mahle are coming here although I saw one post having MM, Ortiz, Miller and O’Hoppe to SFG for Rodon…man, this is a fun day!!!

    1. That was a fake twitter account apparently

      MM is being called up to for ATl series or on taxi squad

  51. Difference between the Phillies management and the ‘Phillies Way’ and the AJ Preller management in San Diego……the Phillies would never had put Hosmer into that position.
    The Phillies would have done everything possible to avoid Hosmer to be placed into a difficult decision,.

  52. Aside from Pitching, why not pick up Brett Phillips instead of trying to add Marsh to a Thor deal? Another good D, poor hit OF, who can play all 3 OF spots, and will cost nothing.

    1. Phillips was just DFA’d by Rays…Phillies and Yankees are likely trade partners, especially if Marsh isn’t part of Thor trade.

      …and wow, the Padres farm dropped like a rock to the bottom of MLB in a matter of minutes.

    1. Hinkie ….not yet…there may be something else left in Dombrowski’s tank.

      Dang….Rizzo has turned that franchise around for 2024 and beyond….and they still have a clear shot for LSU’s Crews next summer.

  53. And FWIW, Giants are talking Rodon with teams but won’t accept anything less than full value.

    1. Full value for what? Rodon is a FA after this season.

      The Giants can get prospects or hold onto him and maybe get a compensatory pick in this range.

      $55 million or $23 million AAV (Comp B pick for revenue-sharing payee, third-round pick for non-payee or team that did not pay luxury tax)

      $100 million or $30 million AAV (Comp A pick for revenue-sharing payee, Comp B pick for non-payee or team that did not pay luxury tax, third-round pick for team paying revenue sharing)

      If Rodon signs a $55m to $99m deal they would get a 3rd round pick.
      If Rodon signs a $100m to $150m deal the would get a pick at the end of the 2nd round.

    2. Hmmm what is full value for an Ace rental these days…

      DD has to at least ask but we’ll never know LOL

      1. I’ll say this it’s less than what the M’s gave up for Castillo…

        His open market value would be similar to Robbie Ray’s

  54. Giants beat reporter Susan Slusser just tweeted that indeed the Phillies are showing interest in Carlos Rodon.

    1. Wonder what they would take….keeping Rodon means they get one pick if he rejects the QO and signs elsewhere this off-season
      Maybe they will take Erik Miller and another prospect.

      1. The QO is gone in the new CBA.

        A team losing a free agent would receive draft-pick compensation based on revenue-sharing status and whether a club had been over the luxury tax threshold. For a free agent who had spent the entire season with one team, there would would be four compensation tiers based on:

        $25 million in guaranteed salary or $18 million average annual value (AAV) (third-round pick for revenue-sharing payee)
        $55 million or $23 million AAV (Comp B pick for revenue-sharing payee, third-round pick for non-payee or team that did not pay luxury tax)
        $100 million or $30 million AAV (Comp A pick for revenue-sharing payee, Comp B pick for non-payee or team that did not pay luxury tax, third-round pick for team paying revenue sharing)
        $150 million or $40 million AAV (Comp A pick and third-round pick for revenue-sharing payee, Comp A pick for non-payee or team that did not pay luxury tax, Comp B pick for team paying revenue sharing)

        You get draft pick compensation if the free agent you lose (who you kept the ENTIRE SEASON before losing) meets that criteria in the contract they sign. Any team that trades for a player at this deadline will not get compensation when they become a FA since they didn’t have the player the entire season.

        1. “The QO is gone in the new CBA.”….i thought that was the case only if the international draft was approved last week by the MLBPA…it was not.

          1. I forgot about the International Draft stipulation, but that also then means the QO falls under the pre-existing system if it exists. Teams that traded for pending FA’s are not eligible to place QO on them. Only the team that has them the entire season can.

          2. Yes, the QO is not gone because no agreement was made on the international draft. Biggest issue with Rodon is his ability to opt out after the season, making him a probable rental only.

      2. Okay, Rodon is the highest rated starting pitcher on Fangraphs this year – higher than Alcantara and Fried. If you can get him for Erik Miller and a top 10-20 – run, don’t walk, to get that deal done.

      3. Seeing what I am seeing I think why not Erik Miller as our Rodon. I’d call him up and see what I have him. Allow him the experience and you might find an affordable high end option.

        He’s pitching excellent right now

        1. DMAR….Rodon allows them that play-off starter…..teams in the play-offs need three big guys starting over a 3/4 week period.

    2. I don’t know what it would cost, but with Rodon, the Phillies 1-3 starters would match up with anyone’s. The issue is whether it would cost more than Ben Brown and Johan Rojas. It would be painful in the extreme to lose any of the top 3 starters or O’Hoppe. I think Painter is our best prospect, but having seen McGarry in person and having watched Abel on video – it’s pretty tough to tell who will be the best major league pitcher – each has things he does better than the other two.

      1. I mean Wheeler, Nola, Rodon, Suarez and Gibson? That rotation and quality and deep. Suarez could easily pitch as well as the other three for the last two months of the season and Gibson is such a good back of the rotation guy. It’s very tempting.

  55. Can’t be done Hinkie!! Vasquez already assigned to LHV. There just has to be a move DD makes.

  56. The Blue Jays traded the #82 Jordan Groshans to the Marlins for 2 relievers and PTBNL!

    1. That is a serious WTF moment! Marsh for O’Hoppe? Either they have little confidence in O’Hoppe or they think they can unleash some type of hitting beast in Marsh, but on the surface, this sounds like a serious overpay without a compelling reason for them to depart with what appears to be a very good prospect at a critical position. You don’t make this move just to replace Odubel’s defense with similar defense. Kevin Long, you’re on the clock!

      1. Brandon Marsh is also a former top prospect. So yes, I believe the Phillies think they can unlock something with him.

  57. We get Brandon Marsh. I don’t know for who, and someone said earlier that if Salisbury writes it, it’s going to happen. Where is our SP?!

  58. So they are saying O’Hoppe for Brandon Marsh and if that is true and that is all we’re getting back then fire DD on the spot

    1. For who? David Robertson is actually a good guy and good pitcher who just happened to get hurt.

      Folks, unless I’m missing something, there’s another very big move coming. You don’t trade O’Hoppe for what seems like inadequate consideration unless you’re trying to add a big arm. Brace yourself, I think one of the big three arms could be on the way out.

    1. For Ben Brown – a bit of a gut punch there, gotta tell ya. Seems like a pretty big overpay for a couple of months of Robertson. Maybe feel even worse about this one than O’Hoppe.

      Big three still on the board.

  59. Are you kidding me? O’Hoppe, and it wasn’t Marsh and Syndergaard? If this is true it’s an awful deal. And now Robertson is back, and no SP?!

    1. I don’t understand O’Hoppe for Marsh either, but I am going to give DD the benefit of the doubt -he’s earned it (at least for a little while here). The Angels are a mess, so maybe Kevin Long thinks he can unleash something there.

  60. So Brown and OHoppe shipped off for mediocre players? Way to trade away top talent. Is that Klentak dealing again?!

    1. .

      Ugh. Can’t stress how much I hate this deal. If you’re going to trade Ben Brown, it’s got to be for more than 2 months of a setup guy. Yikes.

      1. Yeah, not getting this at all. The bullpen isn’t even a problem – why are we selling the future for 2 months of what is really a middle reliever?

        Romus – I may recant my statements about DD – lol!

        1. This day ended up on a sour note for me…..Brown and O’Hoppe, ugh.
          Wish them well.

          One thing to factor in this….both Brown and O’Hoppe would have to be put on the 40 this Nov or lost in the Rule 5 most likely.
          And with sands and Stubbs, along with marchan I guess Dave was trying to cull the herd a bit, who knows.
          But Brown hurts…..you try to keep pitchers…..all GMs want more pithing.

        2. I don’t think the bullpen is a problem but if you can add to it and improve a strength then I think it can’t hurt. I thought they were a reliever short. Now Coonrad is depth and an arm in September.

        1. It appears to be a big overpay, but in DD’s defense (and this is the last you’ll hear of this), Robertson has be a 2 WAR reliever this year. He’s really been amazing – as he was with the Yankees before he came here and was hurt.

      2. … and David Robertson (IMO) is a setup on a contending team. Look at the stuff. Nothing overpowering. More of a Mark Melancon type.

  61. Marsh is a K machine. Something like a 36% major league K rate. You have to be kidding.

    I wonder if Moniak has been traded as he wasn’t in the LHV starting lineup today.

    1. He’s on the taxi squad with the big club in Atlanta.

      Doesn’t mean he won’t be traded but that’s why he’s not in the LHV lineup.

    2. Considering the cost to obtain Marsh, you figure he’s going to get the lion share of the starts in CF. So Odubel will be DFAd, Vierling will be the 4th OF. But this impacts Moniak because he won’t get a shot in CF. So Moniak will be fighting for the 4th OF job in ST with Vierling. This also means that the Phillies have no faith in Johan Rojas.

      1. I am not sure they have no faith him, I think nobody knows exactly what to make of him and he’s pretty high risk. I think, if there’s another deal, he’s likely to be traded.

        FYI – Cubs may have stolen a really good one in Ben Brown.

        1. First thing that popped into my mind with trading pitchers (young for old) with Chicago…Ferguson Jenkins.

          1. Ferguson Jenkins was already pitching in the majors at the age of 22. I don’t like the trade but Brown will be 23 in a month and is pitching in A-ball. I don’t see a repeat.

            1. AA ball now and can’t compare it since he missed so much time because of COVID canceling a season and TJ

            2. Yes, he was just promoted but hasn’t shown any results in AA yet. Either way, the point still stands. Yes, every prospect can become a HOF player but odds are the will not.

              And again, I don’t like the deal, just commenting on the overreaction.

  62. First, I will say that I am a HUGE O’Hoppe fan. My son has the same catching coach as Logan had and they text each other all the time. My son texted Logan last weekend when he threw out 2 base stealers in a game. Logan is an A+ human and a very talented baseball player. I am very happy for him. I expect him to get called up very soon. The Angels clearly value him as a long term piece for them. Marsh is a 24yo starting CF who is under team control until 2028. That is a very valuable trade chip. You don’t give him away for nothing. So congrats Logan. Best of luck for you. The Angels are now my second favorite MLB team. All the best.

    The more that I looked into Mash, the more that I like this trade. I was wrong earlier, Marsh is an upgrade over Vierling defensively. He is an exceptional CF defender. He also has more raw power. His hitting hasn’t shown fully at the MLB level yet, but I really like the combo of Marsh and Vierling manning CF. We now have good OF depth too. I am fine with this trade.

    Do I think that this trade gets us over the Mets, Braves, Dodgers or Padres? No. Definitely not. But in a vacuum, this deal is a win-win.

    1. Agree with v1. I have no problem with the Angels trade. I like O’Hoppe, but if I’m being honest … I like Rafael Marchan more than O’Hoppe. Marsh isn’t perfect, but he’s young, plays a position we can use some help in, and comes with 5 more years of team control after this season. The Brown for Robertson swap drives me crazy.

  63. Ben Brown for Robertson?! Again, seriously? We couldn’t get a good SP for Brown and O’Hoppe? That’s better than what the A’s got for Montas. Again, where is the SP? I still can’t stomach O’Hoppe for Marsh. I don’t care if he plays CF like Garry Maddox, he can’t hit. I don’t get it.

    1. This makes me sick too. What a joke. One of our most promising SP prospects for an aging 2-month rental.

  64. Salisbury just posted an article on the trades. He ends with “More coming”

    1. I agree with that – one of the big three is probably going for a starting pitcher. That’s how it’s looking anyway.

      Hopefully Mattingly and Barber can churn out prospects if DD is going to trade them like this.

      One thing is pretty clear to me, however. They are really trying to win this year.

      1. They didn’t go over the luxury tax threshold without planning to be all in on trying to win in 2022. That’s why DD was brought in.

    2. His “more coming” meant details on the 2 trades, not more deals are coming. Although, he does say it’s possible we add a SP, although “asking prices are exorbitant.” Except they are not, outside of what Seattle gave up for Castillo. The Yanks and Twins and Cards di not pay exorbitant prices for Mantos, Mahle or Quintana.

  65. Robertson’s walks and lack of great stuff is always going to be an issue. I could see him just having an awful back end of the season like when Kimbrel had a great start to 2021, was traded and then just slammed.

  66. I actually like the Marsh deal. A combination of Marsh and Vierling give them a workable situation in CF with upside opportunity in both players who are under team control for years.

    I don’t like the Robertson deal at all. He will help the bullpen in 2022 and hopefully will lead to the DFA of Familia but trading Brown for a marginal improvement in the pen was unnecessary.

  67. IDK I think this all stinks. Once the Soto deal happens I sit on my hands or at least sit on my best prospects

    This team yeah it may get past the Brewers but they are not getting past the Pads or Dodgers and probably not the Braves so what’s it all for to say you snuck into a WC.

    1. DMAR….losing OHoppe and Brown is a tough pill to swallow….but to get talent as Guru said earlier… you have to give it up.
      Following O’Hoppe for the lst 4 years was exciting and now puff…he is gone.
      Brown actually was only on the top tier prospect radar for the last two months
      Further, I do like the Marsh deal long term…he is the CFer for the foreseeable future….and as for David Robertson, has to make the difference this year.

  68. Craziest trade deadline day ever and I imagine this is what MLB was hoping for with the additional playoff berths…

  69. The good thing with Brandon Marsh…was a high draft choice out of HS…..and played HS ball in Georgia….40 miles outside Atlanta…..so he has the pedigree going for him.
    Seem Georgia HS players play a pretty darn good brand of baseball.

  70. not sure I get it … i don’t look at it as O’Hoppe for Brandon Marsh … that seemingly very bad … but I look at as we traded for the DIFFERENCE between Matt Vierling and Brandon Marsh for O’Hoppe. This makes me sick to my stomach

    1. Why is the assumption that Brandon Marsh is a finished product that will not get any better than he is right now but O’Hoppe is destined to become much better than what he now?

      I get that fans tend to fall in love with their own prospects but everyone seems to forget that Marsh was a consensus top 100 prospect just a year ago. Funny thing is that if the Phillies had traded for him last year when he was a BBA’s #38 prospect everyone would be amazed that they got a top 50 prospect for an unranked player.

  71. And, why isn’t the Robertson deal just like the Phelps deal when he had a good season on a lousy team, gets traded here, and stinks? And, Phelps didn’t cost Ben Brown! Sorry, guys, I hate both deals. If Marsh was traded for to be a platoon CF with Vierling then why did he cost us O’Hoppe? And, again, where is the #1 need, a SP? Brown and O’Hoppe would have gone a long way towards getting one. Add Soto to the mix. Why did we get him?

    1. You’re not wrong, these are both disgusting overpays that we will regret for years.

  72. this is what Dombrowski does, isnt it?

    one night O’hoppe is signing autographs in Havertown, the next he’s no longer in the organization.
    I took a friend down to Baltimore last year to see Ohtani pitch. Marsh had the greatest game of his career i think, and my friend kept saying “that guy is awesome. That’s what the Phils need!” Still stunned a bit at this trade.

  73. Bob D – Have to say that Familia is a goner and if Robertson shows anything like he’s done thus far, the Phillies offer him Familia’s contract for next year.

  74. I think DD sold high on O’Hoppe, and bought low on Marsh.

    With how Bohm has turned it around, DD must figure if they (the coaching staff) can get the K’s down, the Phillies have their centerfielder for the next decade.

    The risk was worth a catching prospect. I would have rather given up Marchan and/or Sands, sure. Don’t think those guys would have gotten the deal done. O’Hoppe is the only one of the group that has starter potential in my eyes, and I’m guessing the Angels saw it the same way.

    Also, look at the prices teams are paying right now. It’s crazy.

    I will say, I love the Robertson trade a lot less.

  75. The thing that I dislike about these two deals is that neither moves the needle if the goal is to win a World Series. If the goal is to get into a wildcard spot and see what happens, then these deals help. I am a risk taker. I am an all-in or fold guy. I hate to call in poker. If you raise me, I will either go all in or fold. The Padres went all in and I friggin love it. Pairing Soto with Machado and Tatis is insane. I friggin love it.

    I honestly can’t see a path where we can win a Pennant during the next 4 years, which IMO are the peak years for our core. I guess crazy things can happen, but IMO there are 4 other teams in the NL that clearly have more talent than us. Nibbling on the margin is not going to change that. DD shot his load with Castellanos for this season. I hope that Nick gets hot.

    These two additions help us get into the WC spot, but I don’t see how we win a series against the Mets, Braves, LAD or Padres. But who knows. I hope that we can. I just wish that DD was more aggressive.

    1. Gets us into the playoffs for the first time since 2011. Only the Mariners have a longer drought. These two moves do nothing to help us compete against the top 3 teams in the NL as you said. Catching prospects like O’Hoppe don”t come along often and JT will start to decline sooner than later.

    2. Marsh was a top 40 prospect 18 months ago, we have 4.5 years of control for O Hoppe who was blocked, I don’t think it is a bad move at all. The Robertson deal makes sense if they get Rodon or Eovaldi. We shall see.

    3. It’s clear they aren’t all in on this core, I believe they’re trying to develop a winning culture and create an organization that is perennially good in the Braves/Cardinals mold.

      1. if the goal is to develop a core they could have just kept both players lol O’hoppe will be 24 when JT’s contract expires. And Robertson will be enjoying his retirement.

    4. v1, I understand you wanting to go all in. I don’t see where this helps us win the WC. I think the SP need is a real one, and we didn’t get the job done. So, we are better defensively in CF. I don’t recall many losses because of poor CF play. Sure, in a vacuum, Robertson is better than Familia. But, so is Appel. I don’t consider Robertson a Closer. I don’t see how we are better. Add Sosa, where is he going to play? I am really disappointed in the job DD did.

  76. BTW … kind of flying under the radar today … Zach Eflin was put on the 60 day IL. He’s probably done for the season. Does Dombrowski really go all in, and bring in Nathan Eovaldi or Carlos Rodon?

  77. We’ll see how it all works out. I think we’ve been so lousy in CF that we’ve been tricked into believing that Veirling is awesome. He shouldn’t start on a good team. Marsh has more upside, pop, and a better defender. They can platoon them and if he figures out the K’s, there is significant upside.

    Robertson is a major major upgrade up Familia.

    DD sold high on both Ohoppe and Brown. I like both but he sold high. Both are eithe blocked or down the pecking order for their positions. Neither one would likely help in the next 3 years. I can see the Robertson complaints since he’s a rental but Marsh is here for 5.5 years and the CF market sucks.

    we’ll see but I tend to like it.

    1. Vierling has a .767 OPS against LHP (and a .552 OPS against RHP).

      Marsh has a .678 OPS against RHP (and a .515 OPS against LHP).

      Platoon them for 2022.

    2. Lets face….before May of this year, Ben Brown was not rated high as far as Phillies’ prospects go….Fangraphs had Blake Brown rated higher than Ben brown….and who knows, next season Gunnar Mayer could develop into the Ben Brown of 2022.
      I just hope he does well in the Cubs system.
      Both New York guys now gone.

  78. We gave our #7 prospect per Baseball America for two months of Robertson. I don’t like it. I believe Cubs fans like it and I’m afraid they’ll live in in a couple years.

    Cubsinsider.com
    The 22-year-old has “a 60-grade FB that gets up to 98 and a slider/curve combo to back it up. Brown has pitched very well at High A this season, striking out 105 and walking just 23 in 73 innings. This is another big body with a big arm.”

  79. I can see DD sending Rojas, McGarry, Ortiz and a catching prospect to SF for Rodon, provided there’s some serious consideration for the fact that his $22.5M player option for ’23 isn’t set in stone. It’d be a gamble but the type that DD has taken before.

    1. His player option is only insurance for him. If he gets seriously injured before free agency he’ll pick it up. Otherwise he’s going to be a free agent.

    2. I’d trade McGarry for Rodon if the option is exercised ahead of time. If not I’d imagine the analytics team has given them names of starters they think they can tweak and improve.

  80. I was @ the R Fightin Phils game today…Logan’ s Mom threw out the 1st pitch, it was her birthday…Logan then lined 2 singles and had 2 walks….I figured it was his last day as a Phil. Good luck to him..I think he will be a good major leaguer.

  81. Familia DFA’d, along with Odubel. And, I am not sorry to see either one go. But, someone has to explain to me how Brown and O’Hoppe couldn’t have gotten us a SP. I have calmed just a little. I get that Marsh was a top prospect, was, and can play a very good defensive CF. But, he should not have cost us O’Hoppe. I have seen us blow games in the BP, blow them with IF errors, and a great deal of failures with RISP. How many games have we lost because of botched plays in CF? We genuinely need another SP. The team, not just me, is worried that Ranger will run out of gas half way thru August, let alone September. They know that Eflin isn’t coming back. Quintana would have helped. They couldn’t get Syndergaard? What are the Angels doing with him?

    1. We’ve lost games, Matt13, because of bad outfield play, and we’ve won games that should not have been as close as they were because of bad outfield play, and a lot of runs have scored because of poor outfield play with bad reads or slow routes that don’t show up in the stats. A GREAT defensive centerfielder is a must for this team. Perhaps Mickey M could have been that player, and my only qualms about this trade is that it limits his options. Well, not only qualms. Of course, as your write, since the beginning of the season the team has needed at least one more starting pitcher

  82. I’m stoked for Brandon Marsh. Per BA, he was Top 5 in Angels system every year with the org, including #2 in 2020 & 2021. He debuted in majors last year. While he hasn’t crushed it, he hasn’t been horrible either.
    Here’s his BA profile entering 2021. #2 Angels, #38 MLB.

    Hitting: 55. Power: 50. Running: 60. Fielding: 60. Arm: 70.

    TRACK RECORD: Marsh has been a standout on the field since the Angels drafted him in the second round in 2016, but he’s also been frequently sidelined by injuries. That continued in 2020 when he suffered an elbow strain in spring training and missed part of summer camp for undisclosed reasons. He returned to spend August and September at the alternate training site and built on the offensive adjustments he made in 2019 with Double-A Mobile.

    SCOUTING REPORT: Marsh is a high-level athlete who blends big tools with impressive instincts. He is a plus runner who displays excellent routes and reads in center field, has a plus-plus, accurate arm and has an athletic swing that drives the ball hard to the gaps. His game-planning and understanding of how opponents are pitching him continues to grow, and his improved pull-side power in the second half of 2019 has fueled optimism he can approach 20 home runs at his peak. The Angels introduced Marsh to first base at the alternate site. He initially balked at the idea, but grew to enjoy the position and attacked it with the same vigor he displays in the outfield.

    THE FUTURE: With his bat continuing to develop, Marsh should join Mike Trout and Jo Adell to give the Angels a star-studded outfield in the near future. He is set to start 2021 at Triple-A and could make his debut during the season.

    Hitting: 55. Power: 50. Running: 60. Fielding: 60. Arm: 70.

    TRACK RECORD: Marsh has been a standout on the field since the Angels drafted him in the second round in 2016, but he’s also been frequently sidelined by injuries. That continued in 2020 when he suffered an elbow strain in spring training and missed part of summer camp for undisclosed reasons. He returned to spend August and September at the alternate training site and built on the offensive adjustments he made in 2019 with Double-A Mobile.

    SCOUTING REPORT: Marsh is a high-level athlete who blends big tools with impressive instincts. He is a plus runner who displays excellent routes and reads in center field, has a plus-plus, accurate arm and has an athletic swing that drives the ball hard to the gaps. His game-planning and understanding of how opponents are pitching him continues to grow, and his improved pull-side power in the second half of 2019 has fueled optimism he can approach 20 home runs at his peak. The Angels introduced Marsh to first base at the alternate site. He initially balked at the idea, but grew to enjoy the position and attacked it with the same vigor he displays in the outfield.

    THE FUTURE: With his bat continuing to develop, Marsh should join Mike Trout and Jo Adell to give the Angels a star-studded outfield in the near future. He is set to start 2021 at Triple-A and could make his debut during the season.

    1. Yes, he is no chump. That is a valuable young player that we got. There is significant upside. He is still very young and has great tools. We lost Logan for him, but he is a real player.

  83. Marsh is an upgrade in CF, Robertson is better than Familia which isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement. I would have preferred to package the likes of O’Hoppe and Brown for one high impact addition but…the major league roster is in better shape for the playoffs, assuming a formidable SP is acquired by 6pm.

  84. One more comment on Marsh, this tells you a lot about what DD thinks about the future of a former first round pick, whom I won’t name. You don’t make this deal if you aren’t ready to give Marsh the CF role.

    1. I do Dombrowski he will try to move Mickey to a West Coast team at some point….also I can see him also trying to move Simon Muzziotti for some young non-40 eligible prospect.

    2. Exactly. Rather than saying this trade shows no confidence in Rojas, it shows no confidence in Moniak. And who can blame the Phillies for that.

      The Phillies rebuild fell apart due to getting nothing from four straight first round picks, all outfielders. I include Ortiz as a first round pick as he received the largest bonus the Phillies ever gave a Latin kid.

      Looking at all the Latin prospects traded shows how bad the Phillies LA scouting has been. The Phillies did not have the Latin trade capital that other teams have.

      1. high dollar prospects absolutely….Ranger was a total stud last year and isn’t bad now……

  85. The Red Sox got Hosmer for nothing along with two lottery tix. The Padres are picking up $46M of the $46M left on his contract: $7M left this year and $13M for each of the following three years. All they gave up was the infamous Jay Groome. How can you pass on that?

  86. MLB.com’s Jon Morosi tweets that the Syndergaard bidding is down to the Phillies and Blue Jays.

  87. Phillies and Jays are finalists for Thor. LAA is in the driver’s seat on this one.

  88. So do we overpay for two months of Thor? He seems like the biggest starter left on the board. MLB has the bidding down to Jays and Phil’s.

  89. Dombrowski is going to get himself a SP in the next half hour. Looks like he has waited out the market. The question is who,? Syndergaard? Eovaldi? Rodon?

  90. Why hasn’t Smyly been mentioned? What am I missing? I think he’s a decent SP. How much could the Cubs have wanted for him? But, I didn’t hear him mentioned anywhere, not just to us.. 10 minutes to go

  91. The Phillies are close to acquiring Noah Syndergaard from the Angels, according to Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic. Mickey Moniak and another prospect will head to the Angels, per Jayson Stark of The Athletic.

  92. I hope Moniak crushes it for LAA. Truly want him to be a star and just shut up his haters!!

  93. Thor to us, MM going to the Angels plus someone else. And before I give any credit I need to see who the other prospect is.

  94. Jadiel Sanchez is the second prospect. So, now, kudos to DD. We have a SP. He waited out the SP market. And, I wish the very best to Mickey Moniak and to his Dad, Matt. I will root for him, and hope he does well. What an exhausting day.

    1. Good luck to Mickey.

      DD Went for it and did not surrender any of the big three. Sad about Brown and O’Hoppe but this could work out very well and this organization had a surplus of catchers and know how to develop pitchers now. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!

  95. Another defensive metric where Marsh stands out…Outs Above Average…. a range based metric that shows how many outs a player has saved.
    He only trails Brett Phillips and Minny’s Max Kepler among major league outfielders in
    , that metric according to Statcast.

  96. Agree. Wish Moniak best of luck with LAA and hope he has chance to play everyday.

    Good luck to you as well Matt M. Enjoyed your input to the discussion.

    1. Amen on the well wishes for both Mickey and Matt…nice to see him get a fresh start near his home in southern Cal. Glad/surprised Thor didn’t cost us a bit more, although we’re waiting on who the reported other prospect might be.

  97. I have watched MM against Bulls, I taped games. Been speeding thru the tapes and slowing down for Mickey and Kingery. Mickey is terrible on breaking balls and high inside FB, he also is not a patient hitter. Love him and wish he wasin CFfor usfor next 10 tears but …. . Hope Thor does well and signs on for another year. We didn’t give up our big 3.

    1. Denny….Thor will walk, unless the Phillies can give him a 3 or 4 year contract.
      He will be 30 soon, and probably wants $20M plus AAV
      So the odds, I would think right now, are against the Phillies bringing him back.

      1. I actually think they’ll try to extend him. They don’t want to have to fill two spots in the off-season and Thor is better and younger than Gibson.

        1. That is a possibility.
          Plus Eflin’s situation is still up in the air..it is a mutual option, but who knows how his knee will come around.
          Thor may be needed in the rotation.

          1. I don’t know how you can rely on Eflin for 2023. You decline his mutual option, and if he wants to come back for a low rate, say 1 year $8M, I’m ok with that.

  98. So, to all of you who listened to me vent all day. If the deal was Syndergaard and Marsh for O’Hoppe, MM and Jadiel Sanchez, from the beginning, DD could have saved me an awful lot of angst. I still worry that Marsh Ks too much and BBs too little, and it’s your fault, v1, for making care about those numbers as much as I do. But, we are better defensively, significantly, Robertson is a big upgrade over Familia, and I am betting Thor helps down the stretch. I thought Brown and O’Hoppe could go a long wat towards getting us a SP under longer control, but maybe I was wrong.

    1. matt13….check Marsh’s minor league splits…K rate
      In 2021 vs LHP was 39% and in 2019 it was 30%….against RHPs less than 30% both years. He needs to see lefties more.

    2. I wont be suprised if one of the big 3 pitching prospects is the #5 starter next year.

  99. The only Latin player the Phillies traded….Jadiel Sanxhez…and does not need 40 protection for a few more years.

  100. Assuming the Thor trade is accurate, just want to take a moment to wish Matt and Mickey (and the rest of the family) all the best.

    Still a big believer that Mickey has a future in the majors, and Anaheim is an excellent place to get there. Awesome weather, the park is nicer than it gets credit for, and you get the chance to learn from the best CF in baseball history. Plus the fans will be less… Vocal…

    I hope you guys enjoy your time there, and maybe we can have a reunion sometime down the road.

  101. Shocked that Contreras from Cubs wasn’t dealt. Cubs left some value on the table.

    1. Ian Happ can hug Wilson Contreras once again….Cubs may now wat until the off-season to make moves with them.

  102. Folks, I am getting nervous mlbtraderumors isn’t reporting Thor trade.

  103. Spoke too soon. Athletic has an article. And in the comments Angels fans are pissed about Marsh

  104. So it now appears the Angel trade was Mickey + Logan O’Hoppe + another prospect for Marsh and Thor. That’s what I thought would happen – however they reported it originally as O’Hoppe for Marsh – I thought all along there would be more and I think the original deal was expanded.

    I think DD killed the trade deadline. He got the very best reliever available (before we knew Hader was to be traded) ; a future 24 yr old glove first CF ; and a strong # 4 pitcher without surrendering the crown jewels of the system. He filled every glaring need.

    It is sad to see MM and Logan O’Hoppe leave and I wish them well. But for the now – our team is a better team than it was yesterday. Our bullpen has incredible depth, our SP is improved, and with a tandem of Vierling and Marsh we have some solid leather and hitting from both sides of the plate. Kudos to DD ! Great job !!

    1. Ohoppe was always going to leave unless we traded JT. His value was high and if he stumbled it would drop. Granted it could always climb as well but only if he produced at mlb level

  105. Braves get Raisel Iglesias in final seconds. Braves pay all 58 million (4 yrs) owed to him. He is homer prone. I say Robertson is the better pickup….

    1. good deal for the Angels. not terrible for the Phils. Hopefully good new options for MM, back in CA. This is one deal though I kind of hope comes back to bite the Phils in the butt.

    2. We all hope for the best for the Moniak’s. Good luck Matt to Mickey. This is what was best for him. You’re back in CA on a team that will let him play. Make us proud!

  106. I hope everyone who called for DDs head an hour ago pulled their heads on the sand and actually understand the trade with Thor and Marsh was probably semi done but figuring out the 3rd player. MM Ohoppe n Sanchez for those 2 is not a bad trade!

  107. Best wishes and good luck to Mickey and his family.

    DD demonstrated today how an excellent, experienced POBO/GM operates. Very glad that he’s in charge of baseball operations for the Phils.

  108. Dombrowski did what he was brought in to do. I don’t like all of the deals, but the Phillies are going (close to) all in while the core is in their prime. Makes sense.
    Best of luck to Mickey. Seems like a great kid. Thank you to Matt Moniak for being generous with his time here. Happy to see Mickey finally get the chance to probably get regular ABs for a club who can be more patient.

  109. If I said this morning we wouldn’t have to give up Painter/Abel/McGarry and still have 2 of Lee/O’Hoppe/Rojas and have 1 of Miller/Brown and in return get a SP + a Closer + a CF with years and years of control every single person would be all in for this on here.

    Hardly ever comment but check in every day. Great site and great community here!

    1. We got pitchers last draft and this that can back fill Brown. Perez can fill for O’Hoppe. Marsh is an up from Moniak. Robertson is a lot better than Familia. Now Harper and Segura coming back. I smell the roses.

  110. Matt M, I sincerely wish you and Mickey all the best! I’ve noted it here before but I have a picture of me and Mickey at spring training in March 2017, his first spring training in Clearwater. I have never wavered from being a fan and also from believing that he will be an every day major leaguer. I will root for him with the Angels. Please know there were many Phillies fans who have always rooted for his success!

    And thank you for being a part of this community. For sharing information and insights and for being an all-around good guy considering all the different types of comments. You were always respectful. I hope you have many great joys in the years to come watching Mickey achieve and achieve and achieve! God bless.

  111. MLB Network loves the Phillies moves. They kept all their high end pitching and traded O’Hoppe who was blocked for a reliable reliever to solidify the pen. I don’t know who everyone else is surprised that wasn’t traded but I heard Miller’s name linked on the MLB Network to Angels/Thor and S.F’s/Rondon. My guess Miller is on the express trying to PHI.

    1. Erik Miller getting starter innings would go a long way in replacing Ben Brown. Not sure what’s going on.

      1. He hasn’t started a game in exactly two months…wonder if he is losing velo.
        Have to assume his shoulder issues are all behind him or they would have shut him down by now.
        Maybe they will give him some starts….June 2nd he lasted 2 innings and 47 pitches facing 11 batters.

  112. my best wishes to Mickey and Matt as well. he is now near home and the family can see him whenever they want. he had a hell of a spring training and a shame he got hit by that pitch. you’d have to go back through all ST games to see if his success was against young pitchers and if all on fast balls. this would confirm what a lot are saying that he can’t hit off speed. a new start and I think he will capitalize on it. also, is Sanchez this year’s Curtis Mead. he was pretty steady so far this year.
    gm

  113. For what the Reds got for Mahle and what the Cardinals gave to get Montgomery (two guys with controlled years), couldn’t the Phillies have matched those trades with talent? Tell me if I’m wrong.

  114. Thank you for all the well wishes guys, means a lot. Phillies going to be tough down the stretch and I think this will work out really well for him. And thank you Jim for all your hard work . been quite a long time reading this site since 2016! I wish you guys all the best. Will check in from time to time. – Matt Moniak

    1. Thank you Matt, good luck to Mickey and you. The Angels are one of my son’s favorite team. I always enjoyed rooting for him, but I will continue.

    2. Good luck to your son, i personally hate to see him go. I feel his spring training this year is his potential. I hope he RAKES in LAA with Trout & Othani. I believe he will for sure. Will be rooting from afar.

    3. Good luck to Mickey with the Halos,
      and thank you Matt for all your contributions on the site over these last six years.

  115. ciada – I think DD – all along – focused on the Angels for their extra OF (Marsh) and Thor. He was not likely to make a trade where at the end of the year the “assets” walked – ergo Marsh. For that, he was willing to trade some of the farm system. I think it was all about filling more than one need – and to him, the Angels presented the best partner. Thor is still – even with the lower velo, albeit one less year of contract, a better SP than Mahle. We will never know what the final minutes looked like – but my guess is DD wanted these Angel players and stuck to it.

    1. There’s no doubt that Marsh was targeted by the Phillies. He was controllable, solid defense, former top 50 prospect. The Phillies believe they can turn him around offensively.

      Edmundo Sosa sounds like the same thing: controllable, solid defense. He’s only 1 year removed from a 3.2 WAR season.

      Obviously there are no guarantees but the possible value is tremendous.

  116. Regarding losing O’Hoppe and Brown, most of us tend to overvalue our own prospects in the sense that the few at the top of the rankings are indispensable for building a strong system moving forward. But they are still prospects. Yes they both may turn out to be major league impact players, but the time is now to make headway toward playoff contention. Curious to know what SF was demanding for Rodon…but I have a good feeling about Marsh’s future under Kevin Long’s tutelage. Thor should keep us in most starts and even turn in a dazzling performance here and there. If Robertson can avoid the IL, this bullpen is loaded for bear…unless it’s asked to hold down a 9 inning game. Let’s hope tonight’s clunker is the last bullpen game. What a lousy concession to the loss column. Thor could have pitched tonight had DD acted with more urgency but…whatever.

    1. Sounds like his patience was rewarded with Thor, had he been more aggressive the talent given up would’ve been more significant. In the final hours they just wanted to dump the salary.

      Best of luck to Mickey, I said earlier in this thread LAA May be a good fit.

  117. Barring no setbacks, Segura will be activated on Thursday from the 60 IL. Somebody has to be kicked off the 40, so it’s either Didi or Camargo. If Camargo is kicked off, I’m assuming that Munoz will be headed to Lehigh.

    Marsh is supposed to join the team on Thursday. Phillies will be shorthanded on offense until then.

    Robertson might be available for Wednesday. If he is, I’m thinking Morales will be sent out.

    No idea what the pitching schedule will be after Wheeler on Wednesday. Falter is supposed to pitch Thursday, but obviously won’t be doing that.

  118. I don’t like to lose O’Hoppe, but I get that trade. And no issue with what the Phillies had to give up for Thor.
    However, as others have stated, giving up Ben Brown for 2 months of Roberson is a stinker. Getting rid of Famila is a plus, but I never understood why the Phillies signed Famila in the first place. While Robertson is an upgrade over Famila, I don’t make that trade.

  119. I hope you guys are right about Marsh. I don’t trade for rankings so I couldn’t care less where Marsh was once ranked or where O’Hoppe was ranked. For me me O’Hoppe was way more valuable than Marsh. I hope Marsh proves me wrong.

    I’ve prepared my dish of crow…vacuum sealed it and put it in the freezer.

    As for just the Thor trade I’m good with that. I have high regard for the Moniak family and wish them nothing but success.

    If we had got Robertson for Christopher Sanchez or Morales I’d be thrilled but not Ben Brown c’mon. Brown’s current profile was top of the rotation piece. How you trade that for half a season of a BP role doesn’t jive with me.

    Then to top all that off I have to watch Strider mow down our LU with 13 K’s like he was facing a little league team and know oh yeah by the way they have Iglesias on the way.

    F the low bar wild card goal. That’s not my goal. My goal is to overtake the Braves and prepare to win division titles and compete for WS appearances. My goal is to build a farm so deep that when the time comes I can trade for actual MLB players that move the needle and have years of control. And not have it decimate my system.

    Alex Anthopoulos is laughing at us

    1. DMAR…….Phillies lost one top ten prospect…Logan O’Hoppe…and we all liked him.
      But catching is a strong point in the system now and someone had to go at some point….not going to be JTR
      Ben Brown 10 weeks ago was not on anyone’s prospect radar…..he is now.
      A credit to him and his hard work coming back from TJ.
      I am not sure Dombrowski decimated the system.

      1. As far as Brown is concerned, if you had to re-rank the prospects before the trade, Brown would probably be ranked in the top 7 or 8 and O’Hoppe is probably around 3 or 4. The problem is that the system is very shallow and, quite frankly, it has to be among the worst systems in baseball in terms of hitting talent and perhaps our best minor league hitter was just traded. It does smart a little bit and I think it also tells you that Rojas really isn’t highly valued by the industry – certainly, his statistics are pedestrian at best although the tools are there.

    2. I recognize that Brown has some reliever risk himself and is probably more of a #3 than a #1 or #2 if things work out but I’m with you on not liking that trade. I don’t like giving up real prospects for relievers, period, and especially not for half season rentals that are only going to pitch a handful of innings with the team.

      It hurts to lose O’hoppe but getting Marsh is a good thing. The team has to be right that his bat is fixable to some extent; he has the talent.

      1. There have been a bunch of prospect pitchers that we have traded away over the years and I was upset at the moment, but they never materialized, i.e. Drabek, Dubee, Kilome, even Sixto Sanchez and Stewart to Marlins and others so ….

        1. Denny…touché….Jason Knapp, even Ken Giles……remember TINSTAAPP.

          Though have to gic=ve credit to whoever pulled the trigger in drafting Logan and Ben from Long Island at the 23rd and 33rd round picks….the return value is more than I would have ever thought when they were drafted.

      2. I’ll try to be more positive from this point forward. I appreciate you guys…my Phillies brethren

        There are things I know and know well and certainly things I don’t. I try to not veer to far outside my lane.

    3. When I watch the Braves and see how they accumulate talent and identify and lock young talent up long-term, I compare them to the Eagles. They run circles around the competition (how does Spencer Strider, just show up and become an ace? It’s insane.). The Phillies are building some nice pitching in the system, which I love. But their hitting talent in the minors is deplorable. Their neither draft nor develop hitters very well.

        1. DMAR….make sure that crow is wrapped tight in your freezer…do not want you to experience any freezer-burned bird.

        2. If anyone has a chance to fix Marsh, it’s Kevin Long. But he’s getting him with 2 months to go in the season, so, even if he can help him, we might not see the results until next year.

      1. There does seem to be a little space between the Phillies and Bravos
        Bohm….Riley
        Stott……Albies
        Marsh…Acuna

        1. To find players that are like Strider we need to visit some saloons that have piano players.

  120. Matt Gelb’s piece in Athletic about the Phils deadline was very good. Essentially O’Hoppe wasnt going over well as primary piece for a pitcher, so shifted to trading him for centerfielders. Angels called back with Thor trade late. Phils think KLong can help Marsh hit better, obviously. Also, Thor hasnt pitched on 4 days rest all season it indicated? So they will still be mixing Falter/Sanchez into starts the rest of the way it seems, though no monday games in September.
    Will be seeing Angels play in Seattle this weekend, no Trout or J-Rod but maybe Mickey Mo.

  121. RIP Vin Scully….94

    Not sure I could listen to his style every night but on the occasions where I did here one of his broadcasts of a game it was kind of neat and refreshing.

  122. I have never seen video of Ben Brown pitching so I really don’t know quite how good he could become. If he’s going to be a 3/4, it’s not the end of the world. If he’s going to be a 2, even with the other pitchers not being moved, it was a big overpay. That said, I think they LOVE McGarry and he was almost as untouchable as Abel and Painter. As for Brown v. Miller, my guess is that they were asking for the starting pitcher (Brown) and not the reliever.

    As for O’Hoppe, the real question was whether he is going to become a first division regular – a 3-5 WAR catcher and Realmuto’s definite successor. I have no idea how likely that is/was.

  123. It probably doesn’t mean much but I always like to see how teams come out and play the night after the deadline passes. Especially the fringe teams and then the teams that seemingly made the biggest moves to improve their chances

    The Met’s losing to the Nats AAAA squad on deGroms first start back from the IL was puzzling. deGrom was hitting 102 MPH as the Braves were putting it on the Phillies. Reminds me of a horse race where the best horse just lays back and stalks the pace until the quarter pole then turns it on.

    The Pads squeak out a 3-2 win over the Rockies

    The Dodgers yawn and beat the Giants

    The Yankees yawn and lose to the M’s

    The Brewers sulk and lose to the Pirates

    The Cards exhale and shutout the Cubs 6-0

    And the Twins trip over their two left feet and lose to the Tigers

    About 60 gamed remain and I expect for the MLB that is an exciting race to the finish.

  124. I miss Jimmy Rollins so much. When the Mets were tearing our hearts out he stood up came forward and Bravehearted everyone around him…

    this team doesn’t have that

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