824 thoughts on “Open Discussion: Week of December 10th”

1. Jim Salisbury reports the Phillies have internally discussed bringing Neshek back. If it’s for a 2-3 year deal, I’m in.

   Unless there’s something wrong physically with Crawford or Kingery, there’s no reason CeHe and Galvis should not be moved now. Once the ’18 season begins, the trade (leverage) value of both will plummet.

   I’m still intrigued by the possibility of signing Carlos Santana. Yes, Hoskins’ slashes were better last season when at 1b instead of LF. Wonder if the FO sees that as a red flag for moving him or that he’s he sound enough to make adjustments.

   1. The Phillies are not moving Rhys Hoskins short of some crazy deal for Mike Trout, nor should they. The whole point of running a farm system is to pick, develop and promote players like Hoskins, Crawford and Kingery. Hoskins stays put.

      1. catch…I think 8mark was referring to moving Hoskins from first base to LF….not trading him.

         1. What Romus said

         2. Ohhhh . . . thanks.

2. I have zero interest in Santana. I want two things, basically, this week. One: trade Galvis (ideally) and Hernandez (both optimally). And two: secure two starting pitchers by either trade or via free agency.

   I’m not seeking blockbusters but they should all move the needle and push the projected team win total towards 81.

   We have the better-than-average young pieces to do this. It’s time to trade from prospect volume and cash in to fill SP holes, free middle infield clutter, trim glut of outfielders and cut bait on certain marginal but price controlled assets. We also have incredible payroll flexibility and that’s something to wield creatively and use aggressively for short term contracts.

   1. Get this message over to klentak 🙂

3. Jim…Darick Hall is one big fellow.
   Looks like an NFL middle linebacker.

   1. Yes, he is. It’s funny, but in person their height seems different. As you can see, they are all pretty close to the same height. but, you get the feeling that Hall towers over you. And I felt that Pelletier was just a smidgen taller than I. As you can see I’m a runt next t these guys.

      I forgot to mention why these guys were in Clearwater. I meant to include it in the article above.

      The Phillies were running a Speed Class. I joked with them that I had heard that one of the things that coaches couldn’t teach was speed. They explained that they were learning techniques that would help them get a better lead, better jump, better running of the bases. Not necessarily to enable them to steal bases, but to run more efficiently. It’s good to hear that the Phillies are investing the time in off season classes like this. There were about 30 guys in town for this.

      Another anecdote from dinner: Our waiter assumed that we were all down for meetings and that all five of us were affiliated with the Phillies. He saw the curly P on Steve’s and my shirts and assumed that we were Phillies brass. Since it wasn’t going to get our meal comped, we called off the con.

      1. Florida retirees…always look for that best deal meal! 🙂

4. So … the Mike Trout wedding went off w/o a hitch Saturday. Apparently, it was a nice day for a white wedding. Among those in attendance: Garrett Richards, CJ Cron, Jarred Weaver, and Tyler Skaggs. Skaggs posted a couple of pics on his Instagram https://www.instagram.com/p/BciIyVLnw_H/
   Also … Skaggs, apparently, is a big LA sports fan. He let Trout hear it when the Lakers bet the Sixers last week. Yesterday, Trout tagged Skaggs (and Weaver) after the Eagles outlasted the Rams.

   #FlyEaglesFly @Weave1036 @TylerSkaggs37

   — Mike Trout (@MikeTrout) December 11, 2017

   How funny is it going to be when Skaggs gets traded to the Phillies this week for Cesar Hernandez ?

   One last note on Mike Trout … as I’ve mentioned many times … I live just five minutes from Millville. I have no evidence to support this, but there is a story/rumor going around in this area that a secret Santa paid off all the layaways at the Millville Walmart and two other Walmarts in the area. Many people are pointing the finger at Mike Trout. Again, I have not read this in any of the local papers, and my wife (unfortunately) didn’t have anything on layaway so I can’t corroborate this story, but it’s out there.

   1. Whoever did it……now that is a very thoughtful gesture and genuine Christmas story.
      Good bet Mike Trout was the secret Santa as everyone thinks.

   2. I think its true Hinkie. Romus had his tuxedo for trouts wedding on lay a way and its was paid when he picked it up. Trout is special

   3. Man, you keep beating that Skaggs drum but I just don’t see in him what you see.

      MLB Trade rumors mentions the Diamondbacks may be interested in trading Patrick Corbin. I don’t know why the DBacks would do that but if they are I’d go after him depending on how wedded the DBacks are to Drury and his 89 OPS+ at 2B.

5. I’d love to see the Phillies trade Galvis and Hernandez this week, and trade for or sign a FA pitcher, Nothing against Freddie, but I don’t want Crawford looking over his shoulder this year. Cesar’s stock is sky high right now with three teams (off the top of my head) looking for a young, cheap, second baseman who can hit. I can live with Nola, Eickhoff, Velasquez, Pivetta/Eflin/Lively/Thompson in the rotation. but I want the Phils to get a couple of solid relief pitchers.

   1. A success would be getting at least 1 starting pitcher who can slot in rotation with Nola and could be counted on being around for the next 3 years (preferably under 30) ~ likely acquired via trade. A home run would also included 2 relievers (one who is controllable) and another outfielder.

      1. Mets are shopping Matt Harvey:
         Low sale price, a releiver…high risk after the TOS.
         http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/mets-shopping-matt-harvey-report-says-492551.html

         1. Romus at one time .I thought Harvey and the kid with the orioles. who name I forgot were going to be studs. Pitchers are so hard to figure, with injuries

            1. rocco…Bundy(25-years old) stll has a chance with the Os…and also Hunter Harvey (23-years old)……………but pitchers are so fluid….and even HS pitchers…look at Kevin Gowdy….this year is critical for his development.
               That is one of the reasons why i would never draft a HS pitcher in the first round…with very few exceptions….Kershaw, Bumgarner, Beckett and a few others…..they are hard to figure out long-term.
               HS pitchers come with higher ceilings than college guys, but lower floors due to their flame out rate.

               1. Gowdy will be rehabbing for most of the year unfortunately

      2. My point is that pitcher may already be on the roster. We just don’t know yet.

   2. I definitely would like to see Hernandez traded as I think he has much more value than Galvis. I wouldn’t be against keeping Galvis to start the season at 2B as Kingery still has some work on his approach in AAA. Once Kingery comes up Galvis makes a nice utility player and unless Crawford bombs Franco has more reason to look over his shoulder at Galvis than Crawford.

6. I want Machado this weekend … Screw it, It’s an early Christmas present. Make it happen Santa!

   Franco, Hernadez, Kilome, Cozens, Hammer, and Randolph … Screw it… It’s a Christmas gift 🙂

   1. Heck … I’ll even throw in Joseph

   2. Terrible idea, in my opinion, trading tons of players for someone who will be a free agent next year. He will not sign an extension now, no way, why should he. Let’s stop these Machado trade ideas.

      1. Why wouldn’t he sign an extension? If Phillies float $400mil, do you think he says no?

         1. Yes I think he’ll say no to any extension. Free agency will earn him the most money possible and he’ll wait for it.

            1. The extension would have to be part of the deal, thought that was assumed, my bad

            2. … and if he doesn’t get injured this year. How much money is enough money?

               1. That’s the difference between pitchers and position players. How often are position players hurt so bad that their career is effected? Practically never.

            3. the more interesting question is ” would you trade for Machado now and give up talent if you could have a window to negotiate an extention with him and get him signed longterm say at 10yrs 320 million?”
               the upside being you don’t have to compete in free agency , the down side is loss of talent
               unlikely but an interesting hypothetical question

               1. srussell…….who negotiated Manny’s first pro contract? MacPhail with Lozano. Why not do the second!.
                  They may have some familiarity with each other.
                  If the Os were open to trading him this off-season…i would do it and give up players/prospects…with the caveat the deal is consummated after a LTC is signed by Manny.

   3. Two reasons why this is a bad idea. 1) any deal for MM is going to have to START with Sanchez and Nola and likely includes Kingery and others. 2)To sign MM to an extension you are going to have to sign him to the same exorbitant contract it will take to get him in the off-season. So you have just traded your best players and prospects for a year of a player that still doesn’t get you to the playoffs next year.

7. I can’t believe Hernandez is being called “middle infield clutter”. There is a better that average chance (statically) that Kingery isn’t the player that Hernandez is. I just feel like he gets so under played on here. I don’t know if it would surprise most of you that he is literally top 5-7 in mostly all offensive categories (obviously not HR or RBI but that’s not his game) for 2B. And he has continued to improve year in and year out. If he was to unlock his speed ok the bases and swiped 30+ (he has the speed to do so) that would be one of the best 2B in the league.
   Ahhh trade him to the Yankees then. I think he’d be a really good player there.

   1. Because you sell high on a player while you can. The FO believes Kingery is the future 2nd basemen.

      1. Baseman* sorry had to correct myself LOL

   2. Why are you underplaying Kingery? Have you seen him play? He will be a leader on this team, very soon. He might become the face of this team. Yes he’s really good. He should have been a 1st round pick and he’s playing like it. Cesar is a really good player too but is excess now and needs to get traded for a pitcher.

      1. I’m not trying to down play anyone, i’ve seen Kingey in person about 10-15x. I think he’s a solid player however when he stepped up to LHV his K rate went from solid to below average and his walk rate did the exact same thing. His OBP was closer to below average than above as well. He ISN’T the HR guy that his HR total would make you think. I hope that he is the guy that people think he is but by the number there’s a better chance he DOESN’T produce at the clip that Hernandez.

         Nothing I said above is a opinion, it’s the truth.

         1. Eric, you also forgot to mention that he went from AA to AAA in mid season. He still was adjusting to the IL from the EL so lets see how he does in 2018.

   3. Would it surprise you that Manny Trillo was a top-5 second baseman, multiple time all-star and gold glove player but people are still bemoaning that the Phillies traded Ryan Sandberg to get him 40 years later?

      I don’t think Kingery is Sandberg but the point is that if the Phillies think that Kingery is better then you move Hernandez to make room. Much better than the team trading Kingery only to find out they were correct that he was better.

      Cesar Hernandez is a very good player, just like Manny Trillo was a very good player for many seasons. He should be traded but the return should involve some very good player(s).

      1. I think Sandburg was traded for Ivan DeJesus.

         1. you are correct. Must be Monday memory on my part since Trillo also came from the Cubs is a trade a couple of season later.

            But my point remains that you don’t trade a player you think will be better simply because the guy already there is good enough..

            1. *Couple seasons earlier.

               And Trillo was already an all-star once we traded for him.

               Plus, we acquired Greg Gross in the deal!

               1. The Phillies don’t win the first World Series without Trillo or Gross. Who honestly knew that Sandberg would be a HOF player.

8. Jim, Island Way Grill is my favorite stop there and a regular dinner on my spring training trip each spring. Good luck to Steve on his book.
   Jim – I think it’s awesome you went to Orlando and I look forward to any inside dirt you hear. Enjoy and share!

9. Jim, The surprise in the picture was Darrick Hall, who undoubtedly was the fisherman. I think he can be special this year if he can get a better idea of the strike zone.

10. Don’t be surprised if the Phillies dangle their glut of starters/relievers who have bounced from AAA-ML the last 2 years: Eflin, Lively, Thompson, Eickhoff, Velasquez, Leiter, Pivetta, and Morgan. I do think for an upgrade at SP we are looking at possibly including a major league ready OF such as Williams as part of a package (+prospects)

    1. Bob I love dangle the glut of starters. only problem is that they are all 5 or 4 and stink. You can find all those types in every organization. Only one on that list to me who has a chance is Pivetta I like his stuff. But Thompson is a hitting machine. VV is so so loses his velo in games and gets hit. plus he is hurt a lot. Leiter is 90 mph right hander nothing special there. Morgan is okay for bullpen. so I don’t see them getting anything for these glut of starters. Its wishful thinking on your part.

       1. The object would be to make an upgrade like acquire an Archer or a Cole etc…

          1. BobD…..Alfaro and Sixto may just get the Pirates thinking about a Cole trade. Are you in like Flint?

             1. My personal feeling is Sixto is off limits. There are several other pitchers just below his prospect level that could be had in a trade

11. If Cesar and Freddy are (ideally) traded, I think Howie Kendrick should be brought back on a 1 year deal. He can play 2B for a month and then shift into a reserve role. I think he would be a great mentor for JP as he transitions into an every day major leaguer. Kendrick would give the team good depth at 1B, 2B, 3B, And LF and Kapler should be creative enough to get him at bats to keep him happy.

    1. Don’t want to take playing time away from the kids but I love the idea of bringing in an experienced veteran who has a solid stick like Kendrick or Martin Prado who teach the young players more about hitting.

    2. I’d like to see the Phils go after Martin Prado. Marlins get to dump more payroll, and the Phils get a utility player who can pinch hit for cheap.

       1. He wouldn’t be cheap unless you’re talking prospects. He’s rather expensive $$$ wise..

          1. I don’t care about the money. I meant prospects.

    3. Yes, if Kendrick accepts the fact that he can’t play most days, then sure, he’d be a great signing. Personally, I’m not sure he’s ready to accept that. Also, if he goes to the bench, he might want it to be on a winner like the Nats, where he ended the year, or back with the Angels. I wanted to sign Utley for the same role. Start for two months and then go to the bench. I could see Valentin being on the team for two months and then swappping places with Kingery.

12. A little factoid from the Phiilies page on Nick Wiliams’ rookie season:
    “After making his debut on June 30, among all NL rookies, Williams ranked first in AVG (.288) and RBI (52), tied for first in times on base (116) and second in hits (90), OBP (.338), SLG (.473), total bases (148) and runs (45).”

    1. And why do so many people hate on him? The kid has loads of potential

       1. Good question.
          I guess he will have to prove it in 2018, in a full season of work , to convince people that he is legit.

       2. He has a lot of physical gifts, but the concerns about him are legitimate. His defensive metrics are terrible and it’s unclear if he has the plate discipline and hit tool to allow his other offensive skills to play up. Sometimes physically gifted, hustling players just don’t pan out (see Jeff Francoeur). Last year his defensive limitations really ate up his offensive output. He did well last year against expectations, but he’s got quite a ways to go and it’s not clear he will get there.

13. Asking price expected to be (rightfully) high on cesar hernandez: well priced, control, .793 ops. Would bring much more in trade than kinsler, kipnis, castro, etc.

    — Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) December 11, 2017

    Also o padres radar for ss: freddy galvis

    — Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) December 11, 2017

    1. Hernandez has a a fair amount of value and the phils certainly could add to the pot with a prospect or two but I have a hard time visualizing a team that has quality starting pitching to spare for a 2nd baseman even one who is a good leadoff hitter with his good OBP.
       we certainly don’t need more back of the rotation starters
       we have lots of candidates for that

    2. Let’s do it!

    3. Well considering Castro and a couple of lottery tickets brought back Stanton I guess we can get Trout for Hernandez?

14. Fangraphs blog on meetings states Phils might be destination for Yanks’ Ellsbury as a salary dump which would include very significant prospects….that would cost $68 million and even tho’ he has a no trade contract he would be enticed because Yankees tell him he is no longer going to play period. ?????? What prospects ? several of their young pitchers ? or Clint Frazier ? or ?????

    1. I’d be surprised if Ellsbury signed off on coming here because he wouldn’t be a starter here, either. Unless, of course, we’re sending the Yanks one of our OFers as well (I would assume Altherr) and the Phils promised to facilitate a trade to a contender at the deadline.

       I’d love to eat that contract for a good prospect, but I just don’t see the fit. The conversations about Prado make more sense in that vein of thinking, in my opinion.

       1. DanK…..with Stanton now there now, Yankees are busting out the seams with OFers…not sure they would want another one like Altherr.

       2. It will almost need to be a three way deal

          phils get prospects and pay salary

          yanks get salary relief but essentially no players ( actually give up good prospects)

          a third team who needs an outfielders gets Ellsbury at a low salary and kicks in a prospect in the package

          cant see Ellsbury to us in a two team deal

    2. IMO, I try to get maybe Abrue and Acevedo…..two Latin RHPs of note….also frees up two Yankee slots from their 40 to add a few other of their prospects that would be otherwise selected on Thursday morning.

    3. I love the idea of taking Elsbury’s contract to get prospects. He would be a great veteran on our bench and 4th OF. It’s not like he’s going to start anywhere else either.

       1. Ellsbury can veto any destination according to his contract ( 2014-2020: $21M AAV….2021:$21M club option…$5M buyout…full no-trade protection),…on the other hand…he is sitting the bench in New York next season.
          Like it was mentioned earlier…maybe a three team deal can be constructed. With the Phillies payiing salary but also receiving prospects

          1. I know Romus I am stupid. I just cant figure out why we have to pay 40 million or more for prospects. When we had a great chance to get international money for some players we don’t see in our future and get great prospect for a lot less.

    4. RU … I’m all in on deals that involve the Phillies receiving prospect(s) for eating a bad contract(s). I’ve proposed a few of these type of deals over the past few months:
       * a non-prospect for Edinson Volquez, a lottery ticket, and Miami’s comp B pick, or
       * taking on a couple of Miami’s bad contracts (Prado & Ziegler) to flip Nick Willaims for Christian Yelich
       * ToJo for Trumbo, Gray Fenter, and Baltimore’s comp A pick

       The Yankees and Dodgers have a high volume of top end prospects. I would demand a lot to eat Ellsbury money or Adrian Gonzalez or Scott Kazmir money because by helping these two clubs to get back under the luxury tax threshold this season, you will allow them to ignore that luxury tax number next offseason when the Phillies will be competing with them for FA’s like MM and others. I’d want Justus Sheffield from NY, and Mitchell White and Melvin Jiminez from LA.

       1. I really like the Miami deal
          Yelich is better and more reliable than Williams and Ziegler may actually help our bullpen in 2018 and maybe bring a prospect at the trade deadline like we got this year

15. I only want Prado if he can still play 2B a little bit I don’t think he can. Only playing 3B and LF doesn’t offer enough versatility. He won’t get enough at bats to stay happy.

16. I know this has been mentioned in a few places, but I’d like to give my support to another financial flexibility move Klentak should be moving on soon. The Phillies need to sign Michael Pineda to a two year deal. Give him 4 million dollars in year one while he rehabs from TJ and 6 million for year #2 (his age 30 season) when he’ll actually pitch for the Phillies. The Rays did this with Nathan Eovaldi last winter. They paid Eovaldi 4 million over two seasons. He rehabbed from TJ in 2017 and will throw for Tampa in 2018.

17. Matt Klentak was interviewed by MLB panel this afternoon.
    —Wants to give all the kids a chance to see who separates themselves from the pack.
    —Franco met with Kapler last week in the DR….getting in great shape and working hard
    —Nola and Eickhoff are horses and thinks Nola is TOR pitcher as it is defined these days
    —Will work JPC, Kingery, Galvis and Hernandez in the lineup thru versatility, as the Cubs did with their young position players…..IMO, that may have been screen talk.
    —Phillies second half of the season, at .500 ball with all the kids, makes him excitied.

    1. The more Klentak talks. The more I don’t like him. If he really believe Nola is TOR, This team is in trouble.

       1. rocco……Dan Plesac joked with him, Carlos Pena and Greg Amsinger.
          There are pitchers that are horses, and there are pitchers that are aces….and then there are the ‘horses-aces’ …get it? 🙂

          1. Yes my leader I get it ty

    2. My biggest concern is that its going to be difficult to get stars from next years free agency class to come to a 70 win team.
       its important we make improvement this yr
       whenever Klentak talks, it just seems like another way of saying ” we’re not going to spend any money”
       I’m all for letting kids have a chance to play but this team needs more pitching via trade or free agency

       1. Klentak did say they will spend….then he said ‘maybe this year, next year or the year after’, he doesn’t know right now when.
          But he said management wants to spend and they will.
          Oh well.

18. West coast reporting that the mariners claimed Cameron Perkins off waivers.

    1. Glad for Cameron. I Have seen a lot of him. he just isn’t a big league player imo.

19. Also Vielma claimed by the Pirates

20. Prado can’t stay healthy. I don’t want that liability.

21. Neshek close to signing, has 2 offers for 2 years, one from the Phils. I would like to add him. That would be a good start.

    1. matt,

       Neshak certainly was good last year with the Phillies and he liked his time here. He’s also would be another veteran presence.

22. I was sure hoping we would be past the point of just picking up bad contracts. A prospect would have to be major league ready, in order to take a contract like Ellsbury.
    If not, we will be looking at a 75 win team. Too many holes right now, no commitment from Klentak on when to spend to help fill the holes, especially in the rotation.

23. srussell, I agree completely with you. We mat have the financial where with all to pay for FAs after next season. But, it is going to take more than that. There will be multiple teams after the same guys that we are, so by showing a very nice improvement this coming season will bolster our appeal as a destination team.

    1. matt13…..from July1st thru the end of the season the Phillies were 40-44. With some added pieces hopefully this off season, they may be able to build on that and show the improvement that makes Phily an attractive stop for FAs.

24. Neshak signe with the Phils. Welcome back. Apparently Phillies are also in talks with the O’s. They want Sixto & Kingery. Phillies would get 72 negotiating window.

    1. MacPhail and Lozano should be able to work out a long term contract again.
       But Kingery?
       They have Schoop there now.
       I can see Franco, Herrera and Sixto for Manny.

       1. https://www.thegoodphight.com/2017/12/11/16763848/phillies-orioles-have-discussed-manny-machado-trade?utm_campaign=thegoodphight&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

       2. According to the source, it was Kingery. Also Galvis.

          1. Give CeHe and someone else in place of Kingery.

             That INF – MM, JP, SK, & RH. Salivating.

             1. This would be great and Hernandez back at 2B m!!! Where he belongs!

    2. Troll,

       Exciting to hear about Neshak, as per my comment above.

       I’d swallow hard on giving up Sixto and Kingery. But a bird (Oriole) in the hand is worth two in the bush (leagues), if you don’t mind a little pun.

       1. Always enjoy a good pun, Frank.

          It’s definitely an interesting scenario. O’s would be smart to get rid of him now or get a 2nd round comp pick next year. But, MM doesnt have a no trade clause if I am not mistaken. What if someone trades for him as a rental, he loves it, and chooses to sign there instead of Philly. Phillies need to make this deal, with extension. Surely they can find a way to not add Kingery but I would imagine the O’s want a MLB ready prospect

          1. Troll,

             I’d give them CeHe rather than Kingery and maybe throw in another prospect — mid to upper level, but not elite. Also, if they want Freddy, that’s fine, too. Certainly would clear up the center of the infield.

             1. I’d go Sixto, Cesar and Franco, along with 2 top pitching prospects. But not both Kingery AND Sixto. The O’s should be interested in one of our OFs since they’re losing Adam Jones after next season. Ideally, I’d prefer to offer Herrera but they might prefer somebody like Williams or Altherr. Come to think of it, they already have Schoop at 2b. Save Cesar for the trade for pitching.

25. On the Ellsbury deal as proposed on Fangraphs – the prospect(s) accompanying the salary dump was speculated to be one of the top 3-4 of the Yankees, or 2 in the 7 to 12 area – in other words, premier players – like the names mentioned above. I also agree that the Phillies could dump him off to Bosox with cash for more prospects if and when they trade their JBJr CF who is thought to be on the block.

    It would appear with Neshek back that we don’t need Ziegler as the senior rep in the bullpen. I assume this also means we have 39 on the 40 man roster again – or is that dependant upon the timing of Neshek’s signing ?

26. Per above – despite Manny Machado being a franchise altering player there is absolutely no way I trade Kingery. Put any number of other players in there but I do believe he will be the face of the franchise and is a re-run of THE MAN.

    1. Amen!

    2. RU…I am thinking now Dan Duquette is seeing Kingery as their 3rd base replacement for Manny….I woyld think Franco would be their target for 3rd, but they must like Kingery’s upside.
       Schoop could also swing over to 3rd if Kingery does not work out for them at 3rd.
       But Kingery is an untouchable in my book.
       I hope Klentak and macPhail do not include him in any deal like that.

       MacPhail and Klentak must realize, Manny has the leverage over the Os….just as Stanton and Ohtani decided where they wanted to go and under their conditions
       .
       Cashman realized that and got Stanton for literally peanuts…just by taking on most of the contract.

27. Plenty to keep Klentak busy. He should be talking to LAA, NYY, Miami, TB, O’s, and SD.

    1. …and that’s just trade talk. Then there are the FAs.

28. Congrats on the Neshek signing let’s get some more in the bp.

    1. Theres no more room for a righty but they’ll try to sign a lefty better than Milner.

29. Very happy with the Neshek signing. On MM, First, I do not believe that Boras will let him sign before FA. I don’t trade Sixto and Kingery. I take my chances on MM in FA, and if he doesn’t sign here, Donaldson is my Plan B. I really think that Kingery is a future star player and team leader and I don’t trade him at all.

    1. According to Romus, a guy named Lozano is MMs agent, not Boras.

       1. I trust Romus, I still don’t trade Kingery, even if I can sign MM to an extension as part of the deal. I am very reluctant to trade Sixto, but I want to keep Kingery.

          1. MacPhail and Dan Lozano go back awhile, 2010 as the first Manny contract….so if anyone is going to get Manny signed to a LTC it probably will be MacPhail.
             And as for Kingery…..I sure hope Klentak holds his ground.
             Manny has leverage over the Os……so Klentak should see that.
             Cashman did with the Marlins and Jeter since Stanton had the kleverage.
             Kingery could be core peice down the road.

             1. … And a win for the good guys ! http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2017/12/10/baseballs-most-handsome-managers-3/
                Matt Klentak’s first managerial hire is a Home Run !!! What FA is going to be able to tell Gabe Kapler, “No thanks”. Bring on Manny Machado, Bryce Harper, and the rest of MLB’s FA’s next winter !!!

30. I would go with Sixto, Franco, Galvis, Altherr, and any one of Thompson, Leiter, Pivetta, Lively, Eflin. I’d then go sign Santana, trade CeHe for a pitcher and sign a FA and this is what 18 looks like.

    1 Kingery 2B
    2 Machado 3B
    3 Santana 1B
    4 Hoskins LF
    5 Herrera CF
    6 Altherr RF
    7 Crawford SS
    8 Alfaro / Knapp C

    1 Nola
    2 FA (Cobb)
    3 Eickhoff
    4 Trade via CeHe
    5 VV / Pivetta / other

    1. Meant to trade Williams not Altherr

31. It seems that Part of the fan base wants to dump Franco, and another part wants to give it one more year. Some want to trade Galvis and Hernandez, and others want to trade Kingery and Crawford. Then there is the trade Williams, or trade Altherr group. Who is right and who is wrong? My opinion is if we trade Freddie and Cesar this winter, Crawford and Kingery won’t be as good this year, but they will have a higher OBP. On the question of Williams or Altherr, I say keep them both. If you held a gun to my head, I’d say keep Williams

    1. Franco stays for another year. Unless a trade for Machado can be made that is not too costly and give Phils a window to work out an extension. If no extension then no trade. But what ever is done they need to keep the ability to go into next year with the ability to sign or trade for Harper, and a top pitcher along with another starter and possibly a closer.

    2. A higher OBP? You realize that Hernandez put up an OBP over .370 right?
       When Kingery moved to LHV his OBP plummeted. And well JP, if anyone reads what I write here (which isn’t a given haha) I just don’t think he ends up being a corner stone, think he’ll be MLB average, which is perfectly fine for a SS. He’s just not going to give you much offense.

       1. EricD….there is one important aspect of the Kimgery/Hermamdez debate you overlook and is muy importante to the Phillies…DOB….Kingery is four years to the month almost younger and will grow with this current core….if they meet their expectations.

          1. butchered Cesar last name…sorry.

             1. Romus did you go to southern?? Heramdez where you get that from. sounds like southern education.

       2. This whole weird love/hate thing with Cesar – I don’t get it. He’s a very good player – a solid first division player who may still be improving.

          Anyway, you can love Kingery and still like Cesar an awful lot. I think Kingery is the future at second, but if they can’t get fair value for Cesar, I’m open to them being creative about putting both guys in the field. There’s some positional flexibility there.

          1. I agree with everything you said.

32. According to Matt Gelb, the Phillies haven’t discussed Machado with the O’s yet. It may all be speculation on the part of a Baltimore site.

    Seven years ago tonight, a *mystery team” signed Cliff Lee. Wonder what that same club has in store this year….

33. No way I trade Kingery. Even JP called Kingery his favorite teammate ever. Future face of the team. Sanchez, I would hate to trade him but arms always carry some risk.

34. If it wasn’t for needing to win some games in 2018 to attract FAs, I would say run Altherr, Herrera, Williams, Alfaro/Knapp, Hoskins, Crawford, Franco, and Kingery every day and see what you have. I’d also hand the ball to Nola, VV, Pivetta, Eickhoff, and Lively and see who makes the most of their opportunity. The risk that approach runs is losing 90+ games and Machado, Harper, Kershaw, etc all saying thanks but no thanks very quickly.

    1. If we lose 90 games with that group, it will mean they aren’t the foundation of the next good team and more changes are coming.

    2. The 1973 Phillies lost 89 games with young players (Schmidt, Luzinski, Bowa, Boone, even 28 YO Steve Carlton). They played through the rough season, got better, and went on to win (with the help of some FA’s) five division titles, 2 pennants, and a WS.

       1. I don’t recall any FA’s before Pete Rose. And that was 1979. I might be wrong, but those mid-70s teams were all homegrown talent or acquired via trade.

          I could be wrong, but Free Agency wasn’t really popular until the 80s. I’m pretty sure it was first included in the 1976 CBA.

          1. Andy Messersmith and Dave McNally were the first free agents. The first real impact, big name free agent, as I recall, was Reggie Jackson in 1977. In the early years, it seemed only a few of the rich franchises, such as the Yankees, Angels and Padres (Ray Kroc) were especially active in free agency. And it did expand in the 80s until collusion hit and then again in the late 80s and early 90s.

             1. I believe Curt Flood is really the first free agent.

          2. Pete Rose, Jay Johnstone, Tim McCarver, Joe Morgan, Tony Perez off the top of my head. Maybe some others (I will look it up).

             1. Yes, those were some Phillies FAs – I was referring to the advent of free agency generally. Apparently, although the Phillies signed Rose and a few other lower profile players, Mike Schmidt being paid in the millions was what apparently freaked out Ruly Carpenter and caused him to sell the team, not realizing or thinking that salaries were growing because revenues were likewise growing.

                1. Ruly really freaked when a guy named Claudell Washington got a contract that was about a Million dollars. Right after that, he put the team up for sale. Bill Giles was able to put a group together using Taft Broadcasting and some local guys to buy the team. A huge mistake by Ruly!

             2. My bad (just looked it up) … Joe Morgan was not signed as a FA. He was acquired via trade (from SF). The others I mentioned above were all brought here as FA’s. In addition, the Phillies signed Richie Hebner, Ron Reed (his second pass through [1982]), Davey Johnson, and Del Unser (his second time in Philly [1979]) as FA’s.

                1. The only point I was making is … give the young guys most/all of the playing time this season. Whether they win 90 games or 70 games, it won’t affect the Phillies chances with MM and other FA’s next winter (and future winters). Other players see the Phillies have lots of good young players, no matter how they perform in their rookie and second seasons. More importantly, John Middleton is selling what they want to hear … “I’ll pay you more than anyone else !”

                2. From Davey Johnson’s page, I went to Larry Anderson’s (not the reliever / announcer). Only interesting because the transactions:

                   August 6, 1978: Traded by the Chicago Cubs to the Philadelphia Phillies for Davey Johnson.

                   Before 1979 Season: Sent from the Philadelphia Phillies to the Houston Astros in an unknown transaction. (UNKNOWN TRANSACTION…ha!)

                   July, 1979: Loaned to the Atlanta Braves by the Houston Astros. (LOANED? I remember when teams would do this!)

35. Update on MM. apparently these talks haven’t taken place this offseason but previously. Never know who to trust on these sources.

36. The thing that keeps Nola from being a TOR arm is consistency . . . He has the ability to be considered a 2 but he just needs to be more consistent.

    1. Nola’s big issues are staying healthy and maintaining velocity. When Aaron Nola can sit around 92-94 and touch 95 and 96, he’s completely lethal. When he sits 90-92 and touches 93 or so, he’s still good, but a full grade lower in effectiveness. For some pitchers, an added mile or two MPH makes all the difference in the world (much like it does for Cole Hamels, who is basically unhittable on days he sits 94-95). I also have lingering concerns about Nola’s health given that he was close to surgery a few years ago with his elbow. Nola has an ace ceiling (he’s already a 4 WAR pitcher and he’s still improving), but he’s more likely to become a really nice 2 – a guy you’d be very happy to have starting a WS game. I can live with that and it would make Mr. Nola a very wealthy man.

       1. catch – Nola is most definitely a solid #2 and if he continues to improve, he could be a solid #1.

37. Ohtani….with PRP Injections two months ago to his right elbow.
    Raises some questions on arms duarbility.
    Worked for Nola and Tanaka…others not so much.
    http://www.prosportsdaily.com/Headlines/ExternalArticle?articleId=492711

38. I am thrilled if Nola is a real #2, and he certainly seems like one to me. Report this morning that Phils may be after Jake Arrieta, “even though they are a year away”. I still prefer Darvish. I think the loss of a draft pick is pretty significant. I like Arrieta, but go the little extra to get Darvish.

    1. Darvish makes so much sense
       makes us better in 2018 to become more appealing to 2018 free agent class
       no loss of draft pick
       gives us a nice top of rotation with darvish and nola
       we can certainly absorb the cost especially if we frame the contract for less years but more money per year
       biggest concern is injury but good luck finding a free agent pitcher who is not going to be an injury risk.
       sign him and package hernandez with prospects to upgrade another pitching spot, add one more reliever and you could see a wild card run in 2018 and youre still talking about a 75-85 million dollar payroll

       1. You cant wait until everything is lined up perfectly to start spending money because that day may never come

          1. I don’t think they are waiting for everything to line up perfectly. They are waiting to see how their core develops so they know what their needs are. Their strategy is pretty defensible although, as I note below, I don’t see the harm in signing a guy like Darvish to a shorter overpay contract. They get him in and don’t limit their options in the future.

       2. Yeah, there’s a lot to be said for signing Yu Darvish just so long as that contract is not more than 4-5 years. I wonder if he might be interested in a 3 year overpay contract (like $26-27 million per year) with a fourth year overpay vesting option. I don’t think the Phillies would mind overpaying, they just don’t want to be locked into something so long term that it limits their options down the road.

          1. MLB had Darvish at a pretty reasonable $22/23M AAV….four plus the option fifth year….not sure if they referred to it as club or mutual option.
             I would go for it, even as early years (first and second) overpayment.

             1. Actually 4 years with a mutual 5th year option would work fine with their needs. They need payroll flexibility about 5 years from now when the young core are scheduled to become free agents.

    2. Matt … not sure where you read that report linking the Phillies with Jake Arrieta, but there’s a good chance Scott Boras leaked that to help drive up Arrieta’s price. Not saying it can’t happen. Just saying it’s not likely to happen.

       1. I don’t see the Phillies signing Arrieta because: (a) his performance has been declining; and (b) Boras will want at least 7 years, the last 3 or 4 of which could easily end up being a disaster. Someone is going to overpay this guy for too many years but I don’t think it will be the Phillies.

       2. I agree, I think the agents are putting it out there

       3. MLB trade rumors. It probably is an agent ploy.

39. Hinkie, I got a copy of a Jon Heyman report that was later in MLBTrade Rumors. Talked about the connection with Phils execs from O’s days with Arrieta. Report also said that Boras contacted owners directly, and sent a 75 page report outlining Arrieta’s ability. In typical Scott Boras fashion. The most interesting part, to me, is the notion that we need to be attractive to next year’s FA class. I agree completely with that. My answer is Darvish, however, not Arrieta. But, if Darvish goes elsewhere, and you agree with the idea that we need to start winning this season, where does the SP help come from that we need?

    1. Patrick Corbin and Garrett Richards are realistic FA targets next winter. They may not have the resumes of Darvish and Arrieta, but you don’t buy pitchers on their past performance. You invest in their future value.

       1. I agree Hinkie, but I think Darvish has 4 good years in him left. I also like Corbing, and would like a healthy Richards, but he has to prove that first.

       2. Rocco … Mike Trout just tweeted his wedding picture. The new Mrs.Trout looks more like a Millville girl in that snow than the So Cal girl you think she wants to be.

          From this day forward, you shall not walk alone. My heart will be your shelter, and my arms will be your home . I love you, my WIFE! pic.twitter.com/bIwbtgZb32

          — Mike Trout (@MikeTrout) December 12, 2017

          The countdown to Mike Trout in Philly … 3 years !!!!!!

          1. My view is that, until Trout signs his next contract, the Phillies will build the contingency of obtaining Trout into everything they do. Given his status in baseball (growing into one of the best players who ever lived – truly) and his love of Philadelphia, they can’t afford not to at least tentatively plan for this possibility.

          2. He forgot to say and half my money is yours. I would have marry him for what he makes

40. I say sign Arrieta. I don’t care that the Phillies won’t be in contention for 2018. With a SP like Arrieta, it could help jump start and put the Phillies in Wild Card contention at the least.

    1. There’s a ton of downside with Arrieta – contract will be too long, team will surrender first round pick, starting to lose his stuff and decreased effectiveness. All red flags and potentially huge problems as far as I’m concerned.

       1. False – first round pick would not be surrendered. It would be the 2nd round pick. His second half was pretty dang good. He would be solid for 3 of 5 years. It’s risk they should take.

          1. You’re right – my bad. Still a very bad move for the other reasons I explained and the loss of a high second round pick. I think this is a contract that some team will be happy with for 2 or 3 years and then it will be awful. This is for a team that needs to win now, not a team that will likely contend a few years down the line. Red flags all over this. I wouldn’t do it.

41. But Darvish is better than Arrieta, does not cost a 2d Rd pick, does not require dealing with Scott Boras, and maybe we do make a WC run next year?

    1. Bingo!

    2. Darvish has significant injury concerns and Arrieta doesn’t.

       1. “Darvish has significant injury concerns and Arrieta doesn’t”…..?????
          He did start 31 games last season including those in the playoffs.

42. Hinkie’s right on this – Boras has put it out there to create competition and that’s all. Arrietta is on a slow decline now as all his peripherals are weakening. To sign him would be a serious mistake and commit too much cash, never mind the cost in prospect and int’l $$$. Everybody not on Jupiter knows the Phils have a big cash register and everywhere you look we are being reminded that – when ready – watch out !!!! The players know it too. This is Boras being Boras.

    1. Hard to argue with the facts on Arrietta, but things aren’t always what they seem. The Phillies have a new manager, who is a fitness and nutritionist nut. They also have three different former pitchers on their staff. This could work out for two or three years. I would trust the roomful of analytics experts on whether or not we should go after him.

43. I’ve been one of the biggest advocate of: a) Otani-Machado-Trout to Philly train; b) Kingery > Cesar; and c) Nola is a darn good pitcher.

    I’m still pissed off that the Phils didn’t get Otani. But at least Otani choose a team farthest from the Phils, thus, I don’t get to see Otani play the Phils a lot of times. I like Machado and I would like to acquire him this offseason as long as the price is not prohibitive which means no Sixto or Kingery, otherwise, I talk to Lozano next year and offer a $380M-400M 10 yr contract. I’ll offer Pivetta, Eshelman, Doobie (or Haseley) and Franco. I might add Ranger Suarez if Klentak can sign Machado with an extension right away.

    I’ve seen Cesar for 10 years now and Cesar is the face of a bad Phillies team. I will not even try to be greedy to get a lot of return from Cesar. Start the Kingery-JPC DP-combo sometime in 2018 and people will forget about Cesar and Galvis.

    I think velocity is more critical to RPs than SPs. Nola’s ability to command his pitchers and the wicked movement he creates in his pitches are the reasons why I love Nola as pitcher. I love Nola the same way i love King Cole back in 2007. Did I mentioned (yes I did) that Klentak should try and see if TEX trades Hamels. I’ll offer Vinny, Alfaro and Thompson for Hamels, Hagans and Juriskson Profar. Then I’ll swing Profar to the Mets for Harvey.

    1. Again, don’t get the Cesar hate. Cesar wasn’t the reason they stunk.

       1. @catch – i didn’t say that Cesar is the reason why the Phils stinks. Cesar is similar to Nerlens Noels and MCW — they don’t stink but they are the best players of the tanking Sixers team, thus, making them the face of that that bad Sixers team.

          You can only see the hate because you see someone who oppose your opinion although in fact i never said anything negative about Cesar other than his boneheaded baserunning decisions. I hope you start to think that I just believe that Kingery is better than Cesar and not that I hate Cesar.

          1. No, you didn’t say it but it sure looked like you implied it when you said that Cesar is the “face of a bad Phillies team.” What else were we supposed to take from that comment?

             Anyway, if you say you don’t dislike Cesar I believe you and that’s fine, but there are a number of folks on here who do. As for Kingery being better than Cesar, we agree on that. But I’m much more high on Cesar and less anxious to move him for less than fair value.

    2. Well, starting pitchers often can often pitch through velocity problems and not implode but don’t kid yourself, it matters a lot to them too. Nola at 94-96 is a flat out ace – right now. At 90-92 – he’s a 2/3, which is fine, but it’s not the same.

       1. People just need to realize that there’s a difference between a 4S FB vs 2S FB. Nola can throw his heater to 93-95 regularly if he wants too. But Nola prefers to throw a 2S to generate wicked movement and induce ground balls (vs fly balls). So Nola is not a soft tosser like most anti-Nola thinks.

          Once Nola’s CU becomes above average, I can see challenging batters with his 4S and people will see more 93-95 coming from him.

          1. KuKo – I know the velocity and movement differences of 4S and 2S FB. Nola does not always have the ability to throw that hard even when he wants to even though even when his velocity is off, he’s not a soft tosser. Still, when he can throw the 4S in the mid-90s, it sets everything else up perfectly.

             Nola’s CU is already elite – one of the best in baseball with the highest (or nearly highest) swing and miss percentages. I think it’s the change he is working on now.

             1. @catch – you know that I love Nola. But his CU is not elite yet. Because if it is elite, then Nola is a bo na fide TOR since his CB (his best pitch) and 2S are already considered plus. Nola only started to develop a reliable CU this season.

                You are probably confused between CB (curve ball) and CU (change up) and I clearly specify that his CU (change up) that needs to further develop.

                1. I’m confused about the shorthand but not about the pitches themselves – my mistake. I agree his CB is elite, 2S is plus, 4S is above average and sometimes bordering on plus, and CU is developing. Do we agree?

                2. yes yes yo!!

44. KuKo, you would be a very busy GM. I think you worked with Jerry DiPoto instead of Klentak! The Ohtani non-signing does not bother me as much because anywhere east of the Mississippi was out from the beginning. He refused to even listen to the Yankees pitch, so it appears we were never a consideration. I take my chances on MM in FA and offer him the biggest contract to date. And, I am with you on Hamels. Let’s get it done!

45. Like everyone else, I don’t know what will happen, and maybe there will be a blockbuster trade or three-team deal moving lots of players and money.

    But two things seem to strongly suggest against it:

    1. Except for Phillies-focused sites like this one, few connect the Phillies with the big names available, except for Machado. That was the case, too, with Stanton and Ohtani and proved true.

    2. Klentak is being vocal and consistent that 2018 is another season of seeing what the young guys will do, and that acquisitions might be more like Neshek than Darvish.

    Personally, I’m happy with that strategy for the coming year, though I’d like to move Galvis and Hernandez to clear the way for the younger guys and maybe get a decent starting pitcher in return.

    1. If the Phillies believe Darvish is healthy and will remain healthy and can get him for 3-5 years, they should strongly consider making the move because: (a) they have the money and the contract shouldn’t create luxury tax problems down the road; (b) they won’t lose a draft pick or players in a trade – they get to keep all of their personnel assets; and (c) when they start filling in the rest of the holes on this team, they will be really happy they already have Nola and Darvish in the rotation – just one less hole to fill or, if they have too many pitchers, one more asset to trade. I really like this move right now.

    2. Difference between Machado vs Stanton/Ohtani — Machado might want to play for the Phils and he’s familiar with the Northeast environment. I think that Ohtani already has the west coast as a preferred destination and Stanton is clear that he doesn’t want to be with a rebuilding team. And also, there’s the McPhail-Klentak to Orioles connection too. I give a the Phils the inside track when it comes to Machado.

46. Rumors are saying that Machado wants to go back and play SS. JPC still looks smooth at 3B — so Machado is still a match for the Phils! My offer will be Pivetta, Eshelman, Doobie and Franco. No Sixto, No Kingery.

    1. Rosenthal reports that the O’s want 2 young controllable SPs. Since Machado is only under control for only 1 year, that should drive the price down. Will the O’s consider a package of Eickhoff, Eshelman and one of Vinny/Pivetta plus Ranger for Machado?

       1. Let’s be frank, the Orioles want Sixto.

          1. @catch – every GM wants a Sixto if they can. But its all about leverage. If the O’s exist to include Sixto, then Klentak should just wait next year.

          2. If Sixto is the pitcher the Os want for Manny, along with a couple of others, one not named Kingery, ….and Manny is agreeable to a LTC….then I would do it.
             Sixto falls under the well-worn adage…TINSTAAPP

             1. That’s B.S. – of course there is, it’s just an added risk factor. I’m sure that’s how the Phillies must have felt when they traded Ferguson Jenkins – talk about a _uck up.

                1. Or when the Cardinals traded Steve Carlton for Rick Wise.
                   There is always risk……and every team has got burned.
                   But passing on a possible future HoF player is no brainer IMO….since next year there will be many more teams vying to sign him and the odds are smaller that the Phillies will be the one..

       2. Would you take that if you were the O’s? I mean not to be rude but I’d laugh in the Phillies face if they offered that.

          1. @Eric D – the O’s lose leverage the more they wait since Machado is almost certain to be a FA 10 months from now. Most GMs are willing to just sit and wait rather than give up their farm. You can laugh as much as you want, but Angelos will not be laughing if the O’s only end up with a 2019 comp pick (in 30s) for Machado.

    2. Offering Pivetta, Eshelmann, Doobie, and Franco for MM doesn’t get your phone call returned.

       1. Sixto, Doobie and Franco may get a returned call however.

       2. @Aron – The Phils can offer Machado at least $350M without losing a prospect. If the O’s did not return the phone call, then good luck on them.

          1. I imagine MM contact will look like Stanton’s so budget $400 million with opt outs, but I agree the Phillies are better off going after him after next year, and not spending the prospects.

47. Padres get Headley to play 3B and a young Pitcher named Bryan Mitchell. Padres take on all of Headley’s $, no report on what they gave up. The next Padres move should be the acquisition of Freddy Galvis. Yankees are in on talks for Corbin, Fullmer and Cole. SWFL Frank, you are correct. Stanton and Ohtani were never coming here. I still think we can spend $ on a legit SP, not move our core guys, and be more of a competitive team this coming year. And, still have all the $ needed to spend after next season for MM, RPs, including a closer, and an OF if the young guys show that we need one.

    1. matt13…jabari Blash to the Yankees….he will be at SWB probably.
       Cashman could be looking for a thrd basemen, under cost controlled , and do not think they want to go with rookies at second base and third base next season….they liked Franco nine years ago but came up $5K short to the Phillies, believe it or not.
       Cashman, with his periscope always stuck in an upright position, may kick the tires on Franco’s availability.

48. I get the impatience some are having for the Phillies to put together a competitive starting rotation, but there are other routes Klentak can take other than Arrieta Avenue or Darvish Drive. Of all the FA pitchers on the market right now, I think CC Sabathia makes the most sense. He’s a winner, is still pitching well, is LH, and could make for a valuable trade chip this summer if the Phillies aren’t contending. The Yankees are still considering him, but they want to get under the salary cap. Klentak should offer him a one year/18 million dollar contract with a vesting option (180 IP). I don’t think the Yankees would/could match that because of cap implications. Klentak should also ink Michael Pineda to a 2 year/8 million dollar deal. Pineda won’t pitch in 2018 because of TJ, but he should be good to go for 2019. Lots of upside there. The Rays did the same thing with Nathan Eovaldi last winter. They gave him half (2 yrs/ 4 million) of what I’m suggesting the Phillies do for Pineda. Eovaldi rehabbed from TJ in 2017, he’ll pitch for the Rays in 2018. Sabathia and Pineda aren’t long term answers, but they are perfect for where the Phillies are in their rebuild.
    I also have hope that the team will find some keepers from the list of arms that have already or soon will be pitching in Philly (Pivetta, Eflin, Anderson, Kilome, Medina, Romero, Suarez, even Eshelman). I want to see some of these guys get an opportunity (or more of an opprunity in some cases) this season.

49. Hinkie, I have no problem with either of those ideas. I like them both. I think you mentioned the Pineda idea before, and I liked it then also. I don’t even know if Darvish would consider coming here. He mentioned, in his interview, how much he wants to get back to the WS to prove himself, and may, very well,, take less to get there.However they do it, the Phils need to add SP without moving a core piece of our prospect pool.

50. I think the Machado trade is going to go down. It’s my opinion not fact, but I see it happening. There is a rare opportunity to get a franchise player in a trade. I think they have the prospects to do it. They can offer a wide variety of deals, but I think they will win the “rental” trade, but then will push all in for the sign and trade deal. I don’t think the Phillies can let him slip away , he is a huge key in the rebuild since Franco stalled.

    Any combination of players off the prospect 7 or below, out
    Current INF&OF surplus .. A few pitchers shoudl get it done ;

    Kilome (best player offered)
    Appel (for lottery)
    Hammer (Bullpen)
    Franco
    Galvis
    Rupp or Knapp
    Joseph – for bench
    Either Thompson, eshelman, Pivetta, or Efflin

    Should get it done. Will see, but I feel it happening. Machado will be a Phillie this year

    1. The Phillies absolutely should not trade any of their best prospects for Machado without agreeing with him on a long-term contract. Otherwise, it’s just foolish in my view.

       1. Yeah, I agree for the most part. I just see MM as a really big piece in their plan. The Phillies have a lot of over lap in talent coming. Currently the INF is logjammed, even catcher. Soon it will be the OF. The 4&5 SP is logjammed as well. They can make the trade and not slow down too much. Having them stink it out again this past season has them ready to replenish their farm with another draft of top round picks.

          I’d do just
          About any deal
          To secure MM for the future. I don’t see Harper coming to Philly, so MM is the biggest piece left the Phillies can Get. I see Harper to Chi

          1. Remember what Hamels commanded when he was
             Traded? This is for
             The last year of a contract, I don’t think the O’s are fooling anybody. They know enough about what willl be offered in FA for him. They risk getting nothing by letting him go. It is either now or at the deadline, but to me it
             Is unacceptable to let a player of his caliber walk. They better be sure they can resign him if not.

       2. Who said they had a 72-hour window to negotiate a LTC deal?
          I think it was the Os beat writer that reported that fatoid.

    2. I just can’t fathom why people think these names gets a MM trade done? I also don’t see MM agreeing to a contract extension with the Phillies that isn’t what he would get on the open market after the season. In which case I will wait until after the season.

    3. Would you trade one of the best players in baseball for that motley crew? Appel? JD Hammer? Kilome as the top prospect?

       Baltimore’s GM would be fired on the spot.

       1. He has one year left … If the owners wanted to fire him, they should look in the mirror … And of opened their checkbook

          1. Manny has the Os over the barrel….and they know it
             He will not resign it appears….the Os have to maximize return then for him before free agency…the trade deadline in July is relatively minimal for return value on a two-month rental.
             This off-season would be the ideal time…..and teams can negotiate the contract during the process based on a contingency to sign terms.

          2. I’m not saying the O’s are going to get a king’s ransom, but you can’t seriously believe that the deal you proposed is anything more than wishful thinking. The Phillies give up nothing and get one of the game’s best young players.

             1. The best thing to happen to the Phillies, is the Stanton situation and deal to the Yankees. The Marlins were also at the mercy of the player….and Starlin Castro for Stanton would appear to be a travesty. The two minor leaguers are years away or may not see the majors at all. Jeter was caught between a rock and a hard place with that financial yoke of a contract hanging over him.
                Perhaps the Phillies can also benefit under the Machado situation..

                1. The situations are different, though. The new Marlins ownership couldn’t afford his contract were at the mercy of his no-trade clause. He could essentially dictate where he wanted to go. The O’s can trade Machado to whomever they want and are under no obligation to trade him this winter.

                2. However, logically, no GM will give the Os the players they would want if Manny does not agree to a LTC with that team but rather still decide to become a free agent.
                   So the Os are more or less stuck…

             2. Just like the Yankees just did – nothing for the franchise. Jeter is completely out of his league.

       2. and will be subjected to immediate firing squad too.

51. LOL at anybody wanting to include Sixto in a trade. Sure he is “far away” but so was almost everybody at one time. He has gotten rave reviews from everybody that has seen him pitch. I hope Klentak considers Sixto “untouchable.”

    1. He’ll probably be in Reading by the middle of 2018. That’s not “far away”.

52. I am really not a fan of cannablizing the rebuild by trading unproven but potentially valuable prospects for a player who is about to become a free agent anyway. I think that’s how losing organizations do business. Smarter organizations like the Cubs and Nationals (I hate admitting the Nats are smart, because I hate them, but they are) don’t waste player resources AND big dollars on a player when they could just pay money. The Phillies, IMO, would have to trade a lot to get Machado because the Orioles know that he will command a nice price at the trade deadline. They will be asking the Phillies for a LOT and the Phillies should just hold tight.

53. If Corbin is available, I’m sure the Phils will be in on those discussions. The Phils can take Tomas’ big contract off their hands as well as throw them back a pitching prospect. Corbin would provide us a decent lefty arm.
    As for Machado, I still don’t think he’ll sign an extension BUT if he did, how about if we offered them JP and a pitcher since MM wants to play SS. I don’t want JP playing 3B long term, I think his value is at SS.

    1. Duffy a possibility also from K.C.

    2. I think MM wants to play SS this season (his walk year) to increase even further his value in free agency. After he signs a long term deal next winter, i believe he’ll be fine with a move back to 3B.

       1. I don’t agree, he was a SS coming up and wants to play SS. Yes it increases his value but he’s really that good. No extension, no deal for the Phillies.

    3. Agree with Murray. I like Patrick Corbin, and have mentioned him as a FA target next offseason. Because he only comes with one year of team control, I’m pretty certain the Phillies wouldn’t have to take back Yasmany Tomas (3 yrs/46 million). Maybe Klentak gets Corbin for Drew Anderson and McKenzie Mills. If Corbin doesn’t re-sign with the Phillies, they get a compensation draft pick (30-something).

       1. I like Corbin a lot. If they can get him, they should. He could turn the corner and still has TOR potential. They are also starved for lefty starting pitching.

          1. They would have to give up too much to get Corbin. I dont think the Phillies will do it.

             1. Agreed, the implied condition was “if the price is right” If not, then move on.

54. Baltimore wants two controllable SP’s for one year of MM. They know he’s not going to negotiate an extension now. I’d let them pick two of Eickhoff, Eflin, Kilome, Eshelman, Anderson, and maybe Pivetta (although, I’d hold out on offering him). If Machado somehow doesn’t re-sign with the Phillies, you get a compensation draft pick (30-something). If he does re-sign, you trade Maikel Franco and recoup a young arm (or two).

    1. I just think Orioles push very hard for Nola and Sixto. They probably don’t settle for anything less than one of those two names and one of Eickhoff or Kilome. Plus I think there would have to be another lottery ticket involved. They are not trading MM for back-end AAAA pitchers.

       1. Trading Nola and Sixto for MM is just stupid. They should never do that.

          Even if MM is just fine, then he’s on team without high end, cost-controlled pitching. It makes no sense.

       2. The return is not going to be that high IMO. Once they have 1 year left, all leverage is lost by the trader. Is MM worth more, sure, but the O’s will get a prospect comparable to Kilome,
          And a low A pitcher with upside. Unless a current playoff team has 2 SP at the MLB level the O’s like with prospects ready to come up and take their spots

       3. No team (especially a club like the Phillies who aren’t winning anything in 2018) are forking over their #1 MLB SP (24 YO and under cheap, team control for four years) and a #1 pitching prospect (19 YO top 25 overall prospect who throws 100 MPH) for one year of MM. The Phillies can keep Nola and Sanchez and just sign MM next winter.

          1. Uh, yeah. And since the Phillies are not really even post-season ready, any legit deal for MM that does not include him signing a LTC makes no sense for the Phillies.

             1. Sign Arrieta or Darvish, Reed, & trade for MM, they are most definitely post season ready

                1. That’s a big joke, right? You will be lucky if one medium sized trade or signing occurs. Getting Corbin is about the level you can expect as an apex.

                2. Not saying it will happen, but if those signings & trade did occur, Phillies would be in contention for playoffs. Phillies & Reed are in discussions by the way.

       4. Aron……Sixto and any other pitcher not named Nola, would work for me.
          But no Kingery or JPC….if they like Freddy fine.

       5. I guess I’d did a poor job of making myself clear. I’m not saying what the Phillies should do. I’m saying what the Orioles will ask for. You all are asking them to make the kind of trade we bemoaned the Phillies for making for years. You are asking the Orioles to make a worse trade than the Shilling or Abreu trades.

          I love Nola but he does not have the resume to be called a #1 yet. The only pitcher I’d consider calling a #1 at right now that has not thrown 200 innings in a season is Severino and his stuff is superior to Nola’s

    2. @Hinkie – we are thinking the same. I said it also earlier, although I will include Vinny (who I know you like) in the list of names. Eickhoff and Eshelman, who I like both, are expendable.

       1. I actually want VV in my pen

       2. KuKo…….ViVe has little trade value now with his injury history and roller-coaster lack luster performances.
          His value is probably is as high as Arrieta’s was in 2013 when the Os traded the 27-year old to the Cubs….and that was pretty low
          However, that would be my selling point with him right now…..a pitcher that is ready to blossom.

          1. @romus – Vinny holds value as a 3rd piece of a trade package. The Phils cannot get value from Vinny as a major piece unless it’s for a veteran that a team wants to unload.

             In my scaled down proposal to acquire Machado, Vinny will be the 3rd/4th piece behind an Eickhoff, Eshelman and a 3rd player (i.e. Dobbie, Franco or Pivetta).

55. … and this from Jim Salisbury

    Lobby talk FWIW: scout was just raving about Sixto Sanchez. Said he could pitch in big leagues right now. Should be in AA this season

    — Jim Salisbury (@JSalisburyNBCS) December 12, 2017

    The only way you trade Sanchez is as part of a package for a guy like Chris Sale (who I know isn’t available). But this does show you that the Phillies have the prospects to trade for just about anybody they like in baseball.

    1. Off the top of my head, I can probably come up with a very short list of SP’s I MIGHT consider trading Sixto Sanchez for:
       Noah Syndergaard (4 yrs team control)
       Jacob deGrom (3 yrs team control)
       James Paxton (3 yrs team control)
       Aaron Sanchez (3 yrs team control)
       Marcus Stroman (3 yrs team control)
       Blake Snell (5 yrs team control)

       I’m sure I’m missing a guy or two, but my list is very limited.

       1. All those pitchers throw high velo 4Smrs….Lance McCullers could be added also to that list with 4 years team control..

56. #Phillies, even after agreeing with Neshek, might not be done reinforcing their bullpen. Per sources, have had ongoing discussions with free agent Addison Reed.

    — Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) December 12, 2017

57. Saw reports that the Yanks are attaching Frazier to dump Ellsbury contract. If Klentak can swap Doobie for a young SP with potential, maybe he can talk to Cashman and offer Franco and somebody like Thompson (or Leiter) for Frazier, Ellsbury and squeeze another low minors prospect with upside.

    1. KuKo…that is interesting.
       Franco has video now on his work out routine and new physique chnages…maybe trying to rival Gabe Kapler. 🙂
       But the Yankees at one time wanted Franco so they may have interest if the Phillies ever made him available.

    2. Not sure how true it is, but Ellsbury isn’t willing to waive his NTC. I like the idea of Frazier.

58. No offense but some of the trade offers here are comical. Why would the O’s take some of the players mention for MM? Pivetta? Franco? Joseph? Eickoff? Ranger? Rupp? Someone on here called MM a franchise altering player, if true he’s not coming here for any combo of the above players. And you are going to have to give up good prospects to get him. Again ask yourself if you were the O’s what would you want for MM or would you take any of those guys? Hell to the no.

    1. OK – what would you propose if these offers are comical to you?

    2. EricD:
       1….Os cannot let him get to free agency……not for a 30somethng pick in 2019.
       2…then they have to trade him between now and the July deadline.
       3….the acquiring team for him has to have him agree to a LTC or else they lose him for a 30someting pick in 2019……but .if he is traded after March 29th or whenever the season begins, there is no compensation for them

       The Os have little leverage in this situation.

    3. The O’s were unable to sign Machado to an extension while they have control over him and chances are Machado will test FA next season and the O’s cannot win the bidding war. In the eyes of the O’s — Machado’s value will be reduced to a compensation pick 12 months from now. O’s know that and most of the GMs know that too.

       I agree with you that the trade package with Joseph, Rupp, Galvis, Hammer and Appel is junk. Any GM who accepted than will be persona non grata and banned by the team owners for eternity.

       1. IMO….I’d offer the Os Sixto, Franco and Doobie….tell them take it or leave it.

          1. @romus – i will try not to give up Sixto. the O’s want at least a couple of controllable SPs — Eickhoff + Eshelman profiles to be a reliable mid-rotation MLB arm. Maybe Klentak can start with them then add another controllable arm with upside — one of Vinny, Pivetta, Kilome, Medina or JoJo can be offered. Franco will be pretty much a throw in and the sweetener.

             If the O’s ask for Doobie, it’s fine too although i rather use Doobie in a trade package to land a young SP.

             1. I would assume they would want Franco to man third base, unless Schoop is moved over there…then there is a hole at 2nd.
                As for arms…..all of those you mention have some type of a wart, or need more of a refinement in their minor league experience or question marks in health right now.
                And the one I would be reluctant to move is Romero….a LHP and arm like his may be a golden nugget to valuable to move IMO.
                We will see how it plays out.
                IMO, Middleton is probably telling MacPhail and Klentak to be more serious in discussions with the Os and they may be wishing to wait another year.
                I think Middleton wants that marquis name batting third in the lineup in front of Hoskins.

    4. Eric D … I think you may be surprised what one year of MM ends up costing (if he is traded). The O’s have already set an asking price: two controllable pitchers. He is not agreeing to an extension this winter. He will be a FA in ten months and teams know he will only cost them money if they just wait.

59. We can live without Machado this year. We need pitching. A starter or a bullpen stud. There’s talk of making Vinnie a 5 inning pitcher. I did it once when my bullpen was better than my starters, and it works.

    1. Phillies are talking to Reed. The other studs to sign would be Arrieta or Darvish and to some that’s a dumb idea if we sign them. to get a stud SP via trade, the Phillies would have to give up a top prospect which is also a stupid idea to some LOL

       1. Dumb for Arrieta…he has lost bewteen 2 and 3 mph velo off his 4Smr from Apr 2016 to Sep 2017…he has pitched almost 2000 innings between TCU, minors and majors and his first half was very poor last season. And the kicker…you lose the 42nd pick in the Rule 4….GMs value high picks.
          Signing Yu….good idea. Same age as Arrieta and 1300 innings in Japan and almost 675 innings here….so it is a push……but there is no loss of pick

       2. Go with Nola, Eickhoff, Pivetta, Lively, and Velasquez/Thompson to start the year. Let’s see what happens.

          1. Whats wrong with Eflin in there also or do you have him at LHV?
             He does have 22 major league starts under his belt

             1. I’m a big Eflin fan. He’s been gone so long that I forgot him. The starting pitching competition next Spring should be fierce.

                1. If he can somehow recapture the magic he had at LHV he would be an ideal #3 in the rotation…throws 94-96 without any effort.

60. I have no interest in trading Kingery or Sixto, and if that means someone else trades for MM, let them. I go after him after the season, or I go after Josh Donaldson. I want this team to be back to where they were, up with the Yanks and Bosox or Dodgers, rumored to be aprt of every deal. I want Middleton to spend the $ he promised to spend, and I won’t be satisfied with anything less. The Yanks get Stanton for very little. I give Franco a chance to be a big time player, and I don’t trade our top guys. Go get some SP and let the season play itself out.

61. I understand he isn’t going to get the package the O’s might want but to say he’s gonna go for the players that we don’t even look at as players, that’s just not true. It’s going to take something like Romus said, at minimum. Also if the GM was dumb enough to want some of those players, there’s going to be other teams that will offer more than those. Again you want a franchise player you are going to have to give up something significant (Stanton is much different bc of the money involved).

    1. Brittany Ghiroli‏Verified account
       @Britt_Ghiroli
       Follow Follow @Britt_Ghiroli

       Several clubs requested to meet with the Os today about Machado. Duq said they had 4-5 trade discussions on the day.
       2:18 PM – 12 Dec 2017 from Florida, USA

       …you can bet the Phillies were one of the five.

62. While the phillies love Manny Machado (most of their top execs were with the orioles at 1 time), they acknowledge they aren’t a great trade match because he has only 1 year to go and they aren’t a likely contender. Inclined to give Franco 1 more try.

    — Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) December 12, 2017

    1. Phillies love Machado but there are many hurdles. They’d likely need to extend him to make it make sense (not easy). Also, source says he’d be “shocked” if phils would part with Sixto Sanchez or Kingery, possible targets.

       — Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) December 12, 2017

       1. I believe I was one of the sources for this. I and a reputable Philadelphia journalist talked to Heyman around 2:00PM. We told him that the Phillies were extremely unlikely to trade Sanchez or Kingery. We all agreed that Machado would not sign an extension and would be a free agent next season no matter what happens between now and the trade deadline. I’m sure that Heyman respected the journalist’s opinion more than mine. Ans I’m sure that he did further research before this tweet.

          1. Awe, you think you are a source to Jon Heyman, that’s cute LOL

             1. That sounded disrespectful to the man. You might want to read Jim’s post farther down this thread where he gives a review of his visit at the winter meetings.

63. Start with an offer of Kingery, Altherr or Williams, Franco and Eickhoff. This is only if you can extend him.

    1. Well you know the Yankees are not in the discussion…Peter Angelos said no way to them.
       And they have many more prospects to give up…..and also assume AL east rival Red Sox are also nit in play.
       Cardinals could be the wild card…they have all those OFers and Reyes to dangle.
       Giants do not have many attractive prospects I would think.
       Padres just got Headley this afternoon so they are out.
       Maybe the Phillies have a shot.
       Whoever gets him undoubtedly signs him
       And MacPhail and Lozano have worked with each other in the past over Manny’s contractual situations, so that could be an advantage.

64. How does St. Louis offer the type of contract that Machado wants? I don’t see that. Dodgers, sure, Cubs, maybe, but they are not in the market for him. I give him that huge deal to sign him, but Kingery and Sixto are off limits to me. So, a package of the next tier of prospects and a huge deal to extend him, I’m in, but not for either Kingery or Sixto.

    1. If we didn’t have Hernandez I can see saying Kingery is off limits but someone who regressed when going up to AAA shouldn’t be untouchable. I’m not saying he won’t be good but we have a good second basemen now.

       1. Lol I wouldn’t call Kingery’s AAA stint regressing

          1. I’m talking about his K rate and walk rate. Both went from above average to below average when bumping up to AAA. The HRs isn’t his game which he said his self. Also his OBP was closer to below average than average. Please tell me what is wrong with the above? You can look it all up.

             1. Well call it regress if you like, but most prospects even top ones struggle a little bit when moves up a level during the season. Crawford has done this at most stops and Kingery as well at other levels moving up. Worrying about what half or a quarter of an AAA season as a reason to downgrade a guy who after making his adjustments at his new level has done pretty dam well.

    2. The Orioles are blowing smoke up our asses. They’re floating Sixto and Kingery to get other teams to up the ante.

    3. Why do you say the Cardinals will not offer him a LTC?
       They have limited payroll after Wainwright coems off next year.
       Fowler is approx $16M AAV for four more.
       Molina is only thru 2020 at $20M AAV
       Carpenter is approx $15M AAV for three more years.
       And there are a handful at less than $10M AAV
       They have the player/propsects to offer also.

       1. The biggest joke in baseball is … the Cardinals are a revenue sharing team. They get competitive balance draft picks every year because they are/claim to be a small market/low revenue club. Ha Ha. That’s a good one.

          1. It is the biggest running joke and insult in baseball. Baseball town USA is a small market team – my ass it is!!! It drives me berserk and just stinks of back room corruption. I’m serious.

             1. Agree…….MLB lets these select 12/15 clubs claim ‘poor’ for whatever reason and gives them those CBA picks….plus extra $$$ in the int’l allocation pot.
                I can see giving them more straight up cash from revenue-sharing ….but only for their baseball business operations expenses (salary for staff and scouting personnel)……not the picks nor extra money for Latin acquisition.

65. Eric D, That is the $400 Million question. I am only a fan, but what I have seen of Kingery, which is not a lot, and what I have read about him, points to a future star player. To me, Cesar’s ceiling is a very good player. If the talent evaluators on the Phils have a different opinion, then sure, Cesar and Manny are better than Kingery and ? But, I don’t think so. I think Kingery will be “Utley light”. Then, if Manny really wants to go back and play SS, the Phils need to evaluate trading JP, because our dream of Manny at 3B, JP at SS, Kingery at 2B and Hoskins at 1B, or those who prefer Cesar at 2B, goes out the window. We will then still need a 3B. And, if he really wants to only play SS, he will make that part of any extension. What do we do then? I go after Josh Donaldson.

    1. I’d have zero issue having him at SS and would look to package JP for a pitcher but I don’t think his value is that high right now. He’s another one that I think gets pumped up on here when there’s so much evidence to pump the breaks on him. But an infield of Hoskins/Hernandez/Machado/Donaldson would be sick. The only issue there is Machado prob can’t man SS for the length of whatever contract he signs.

       I just don’t think we’ve reached a ceiling w hernandez. He has literally improved EVERY YEAR he’s been up. I don’t know that there’s a reason to believe that is going to stop. Also as I’ve said a million times, if he can work on utilizing his speed, he becomes a top 2B. And imho better than what Kingery will be.

       I would ask this, what kinda numbers do ppl think Kingery is going to put up at the ML level?

66. Addison Reed about signed by the Phillies
    Suddenly the bullpen looks solid
    Now get a starter and this is a wild card team!!

67. I won’t bore anyone anymore with my MM views or praise for Kingery and Sixto. Let’s give kudos to Klentak for Addison Reed, a terrific signing to the ‘pen, on a multi year contract. The BP can be a real strength and could help the SP be more effective by only needing 6 Innings an outing. Both Neshek and Reed are very good, and a real positive for the Phils.

    1. I can agree to that! Needs, Reed, Neshek and Garcia are all solid.
       If Eick and another starter can make positive leaps, this year could be fun

68. I would offer Baltimore the following:
    Velasquez, Franco, Herrera, and any one of either Kilome, Dominguez or Medina. IF MacKlentak are confident they will outbid every other interested team and win Manny’s favor. Once a big market contender (NYY?) acquires him via trade, they pose a huge risk to us not getting him next winter. But any team will offer only so much for one year of Machado, contender or not.

69. Apparently the Reed report was wrong and they’re closing in on Tommy hunter. Eh?

    1. Yes, Matt Gelb keeps shooting down the national guys with these hot reports.

    2. hector neris feeling good about that switch i imagine.

70. I’ll be the first to agree Franco was awful last year and his future is questionable at best. And if a Machado trade and extension were to become a reality, I’d be 100% okay waving goodbye to Franco. However, assuming no Machado trade, I would very very strongly suggest giving Franco the everyday job to start the season and giving him a chance with a new manager, new coaching staff, new body, and maybe some new fire after sitting a lot last September. Imagine his trade value next off season if he had a big year??????

    1. Agreed. I don’t expect the trade to happen because I don’t expect any extension to be agreed to. Go Franco!

    2. For the record, Franco led the team in home runs and RBI’s. He was second in doubles and third in walks. He was fourth in hits and runs scored (1 run less than Herrera), and was eighth on the team in strikeouts. I’ll disagree that Franco was awful last year. Perhaps we fans set the bar higher for him.

       1. Franco was a negative war player in 2017 with an OPS under .700 so yes, he was awful.

          That he led the team in many categories is because he was 2nd on the team in plate appearances, not because he performance was good.

          1. Agreed. He was awful. But the fielding prowess, power and raw tools raise some hope that he can turn it around. My view on Franco is that he is either going to figure it out and become a well above average (or even excellent) player or he’s going to be out of the league in 2 years or so like Dom Brown. I don’t see him as just an average player. I think it’s boom or bust for Maikel, and a .281 OBP isn’t going to get it done.

          2. Concerning Francoe…here is a llittle fun comp that I will repost:
             Looking at Maikel Franco vs Aramis Ramirez thru their age24 seasons:
             Aramis Ramirez:
             PAs –1838….slash .252/.300/.420….17%-K….6%-BB….64Hrs
             Franco:
             PAs –1646…slash .247/.300/.426…..16%-K….7%-BB….63HRs
             Now it would certainly be great for the Phillies, if Franco’s future came relatively close to what Ramirez’ career stats produced.

             1. It’s funny you mentioned him because he’s the player I’ve always thought of most when we’ve projected Franco – all the way back to his days as a minor leaguer. Ramirez is the guy Franco can become if he makes the needed adjustments and becomes the player that lurks beneath the struggles. His ceiling is actually a little higher than Ramirez, but his floor is a lot lower. The ball jumps off his bat the way it did for Ramirez.

71. If we can get both relievers’ deals done, that’s pretty good. Reed could be here for awhile, he’s very solid. Because of 40 issues, the signings won’t be official for a while. I still expect a starter through a trade of Cesar plus a prospect.

    1. Hunter on a two year deal instead of Reed on a 3 yr deal. I’m good with that. Nice work !

       1. I think I like Hunter better than Reed. BTW … Hunter is an ex-Oriole. MacKlentak could be getting the band back together: Hunter, Machado, Zach Britton next winter as a FA.

72. I wish MLB had a source like Woj in the NBA and we wouldn’t jump the gun, but I like Hunter also

73. I believe in the plan to give Maikel one more year. We’ve got to be fair and remember he will play most of 2018 still at age 25! In his two full seasons he’s avg’d 24 hr, 82 rbi. And 41/101 bb/k is not bad for age 23-24. Plus, remember his greatest mlb success was 2H of 2015 when he was just 22. His minor league track record was a little inconsistent but, then too, he was always well on the young side at each level. And his good years in the minors were pretty awesome! Sure, there’s a chance he could be same or worse next year, but I’d say there’s a better chance he will improve (and maybe wildly).

    1. Kapler visited him in the Dominican this week and said that Franco was working hard.

    2. Maikel’s biggest problem is his approach. He doesn’t draw enough walks, doesn’t drive enough pitches on the edges of the strike zone and he chases, chases, chases bad pitches (which he sometimes hits, but not well). The league has long adjusted to him and he has not made counter adjustments. He’s approaching now or never land with the Phillies.

74. The Phillies have added two solid relievers. They have said that they are willing to go with the starting pitchers that they already have. They have also said that they want to give Franco one more year. There is no reason to believe that they are lying. Having said all that, what happens with Cesar? Might we package Cesar, Rupp, and a mid range prospect to the Angels for a AAA 3rd baseman?

75. Cubs sign Drew Smyly to a two year/10 million dollar contract, with potential to earn 7 million in bonuses. Smyly will miss most of 2018 recovering from TJ. This is the exact deal Klentak needs to sign Michael Pineda (will miss 2018 due to TJ) to.

76. Hey…who said Phils would be non-factors at these meetings ? Don’t look that way does it ?

77. how about hioskins as the centerpiece of a trade for mm that would include either trumbo or davis? isnt hoskins our most valuable trade asset right now in terms of minimum salary, maximumn controlability and sss-driven potential ceiling?

78. Mets are weighing kinsler, kipnis, Harrison, Hernandez (tho Hernandez would take a haul) for 2B. Castro not in mix.

    — Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) December 13, 2017

    Angels remain in on Kinsler

    — Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) December 13, 2017

79. Fangraphs gives rave review to Hunter acquisition. Claims he is every bit as good as Morrow and the fact he goes to Phils / and could be mid season acquisition by a front running team is all good. Apparently, kudos to the stat department for deciphering the nos. to show he was all of Morrow and maybe more and cheaper !!! – he has NO INJURY HISTORY ! Keep it coming MK !

    1. will admit im a little surprised by signing two righties- could this mean one of the current guys gets shipped out? you have filled up your 40 man roster now, and have Neshek and Hunter, Neris and Garcia, Ramos and Arano, plus Rios and Pinto, and a few ML starters who could end up in the pen. without a deal, at least of one Ramos and Arano are in the minor leagues, and was looking to see if they could pick up where they left off at end of last year.

       this did make me think back to 2001, when they fired francona, brought in Bowa, and signed Mesa, Bottalico and Cormier for the bullpen, and went from 65 to 86 wins.

       1. Morgan as an inning or longer and Milner as a loogy are solid. They may be looking for a lefty in long relief or not at all. Hunter and Neshak are good pickups.

          1. While nobody was looking, Adam Morgan went to the pen, added 5-6 MPH to his FB (wow!!!!), grew a mean relief pitcher beard, and has started to become one heck of a relief pitcher. As an added bonus, he’s under team control through 2021.

80. Rocco, there must be something bad here ?

81. Heard earlier this evening that Jim Salisbury hears that Michael Fulmer is a trade target in talks.

82. Well, I was at the Winter Meetings today. Had my head on a swivel. Watched a little of Hot Stove, Lauren Shehadi is taller than I thought. Spoke briefly with Jack Morris, Roy Oswalt, Ken Rosenhal, Sam Ryan, Pat Gillick, Todd Kaias, Peter Gammons. Watched the beginning of High Heat, Russo does not require a microphone. Talked at length to Kirsten Karbach, drove across the state to run into someone I speak with on a daily basis during the season. Go figure. Had longer conversations with Jon Heyman, Todd Zolecki, Jim Salisbury, Dave Anderson, a couple of MLB guys whose names I don’t remember, and a couple of scouts and writers I recognized from around the Complex and Spectrum Field.

    What I heard – any mention of the Phillies in on a big ticket free agent is a smoke screen floated by an agent because the Phillies have a lot of cash, any mention of the Phillies in on a trade for a big name player (soon to be free agent) is a smoke screen floated by the team trying to drive up interest and bidding for their player, Sixto Sanchez and Scott Kingery are “untouchable” in a trade for Machado or any other supposedly “reasonable” trades, the Phillies interest in Arrieta (and Darvish) is exaggerated, the Phillies were closing in on another reliever (turns out they did sign Tommy Hunter), the Phillies are interested in Royals lefty Danny Duffy (but so are the Yankees I learned tonight). Saw Jim Leyland.

    Duffy is an interesting target. First, he’s a LHP. Second, he has good peripherals. In 24 starts he pitched 146.1 innings, just over 6.0 innings per start. He had a 3.81 ERA, 2.5 BB/9, 8.0 K/9, 0.8 HR/9, and a 3.2 WAR. He earned $5M in 2017, but the Royals are intent on rebuilding and his salary jumps to $14M in 2018, $60M thru 2021, his age 29 thru 32 seasons.

    Like Arrieta, Duffy’s peripherals have peaked and are moving in the wrong direction. But he’s younger (2018 will be Arrieta’s age 32 season), most of his numbers are better than Arrieta’s, he’s left-handed, and his contract is cheaper and shorter than Arrieta’s projected contract. The downside is that Duffy will cost prospects and the cost may be driven up if the Yankees remain interested.

    1. Jim,I heard Duffy had his elbow cleaned out at the end of the season. That’s why he had a down yr. I really like the Hunter deal that gives you too solid vets in the Bp.
       Remember the Phillies had one of the worse Bp in the league last yr. I hear the Cards are in on Donaldson. Duffy would be a great get.

    2. It’s great to hear Sixto is untouchable. Hopefully Klentak can package a few other young arms (Medina, Kilome, etc.) and bring back a controllable starter to pair with Nola.

    3. Jim,

       Great report from the Winter Meetings. Puts a lot of speculation into context. Encouraging to hear Kingery and Sixto are untouchable.

       Sounds like you’re having fun. Also sounds like you’ve become a respected baseball man through your excellent stewardship of Phuture Phillies. Congratulations.

83. Question Phillies do have a hi pick in the rule 5 ? If so khol Stewart might be there pick.

    1. With the acquisition of Neshek and Hunter, the Phillies 40-man roster is back to 40 players. So, no Rule 5 pick for the Phillies.

       1. They could still make a move to free a spot right? Thought Kelntak said that they were going to utilize the 3rd pick

          1. I would think they will make a move to free up a spot in the next day or so. Klentak said they would be picking.

       2. Jim … Do you know if these trades have been officially announced ? It’s possible they won’t be announced until later this week, and would allow the Phillies to take part in the rule 5 draft. They could pick a player and DFA someone on the 40 man between the draft and an official trade announcement. Or (IMO, more likely) draft someone with the third pick, and trade that prospect for another younger prospect or maybe some J2 money before officially announcing the Neshek and Hunter trades.

          1. Sorry. Should have said “do you know if these FA signings have been officially announced” ?

       3. Thanks Jim that means they have to make Another move maybe.

84. I believe the Phillies have the 3rd pick. There are a ton of top 30 guys available and a few who are in the top 10 in their systems.

    Explain why we would want Pineda, he hasn’t pitched well since his first year in NY which was almost 5 years ago, won’t be able to pitch, youbdont bounce back from TJS in your 1st year back on the mound, plus he’s a cheater which tells me a lot about his confidence and the way he did it shows he’s not the sharpest tool in the shed. Just can’t understand a reason we’d waste money and resources on a player like that.

    1. EricD…Phillies have to add Neshek and Hunter to their 40 I assume today, unless they are allowed to to delay their posting….otherwise they will not be participating in the Rule 5 tomorrow unless they DFA someone else today.
       They are at a full 40 if they have to add Neshek and Hunter.
       .

    2. Pineda had an unspectacular 2017 season (he ended up being hurt), but he’s been more than solid in the four seasons he’s pitched in MLB before that. Check out his FIP:
       2011 … 3.42
       2014 … 2.71
       2015 … 3.34
       2016 … 3.79
       2019 will be his age 30 season, and I’m a firm believer that “most” pitchers come back from TJ even stronger than pre-arm injury. Also, you can waste money (10 million over 2 years) in a lot worse ways. See: Clay Buchholz, Michael Saunders, and Joaquin Benoit.

       1. Twins liked Pineda enough to do exactly what I was suggesting.

          The #Twins sign Michael Pineda, formerly of #Yankees, to 2-year, $10M contract

          — Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) December 13, 2017

          1. Classic Twins move. And I don’t mean that as an insult.

       2. What do they do in their first year back from it tho? Won’t he be out all next year and then first year back the following? That just doesn’t make sense.

          1. Rays did it with Nathan Eovaldi last winter. Eovaldi rehabbed from TJ in 2017, and will pitch for TB in 2018. Cubs did it this week. They signed Drew Smyly. Smyly will rehab from TJ in 2018 and will throw for Chicago in 2019. And, as I posted above, the Twins have (smartly) spent 10 million over two years on Michael Pineda. It’s become a “go to” plan for teams looking to secure a year’s worth of pitching at a discount from a guy with some upside.

85. Ohtani is damaged goods. Elbow.
    After all that….

    1. 8mark…..Ohtani had PRP injections in October….Angels will probably wait and see if it works….worked for Nola and Tanaka.
       If he eventually does go under the knife, I assume it will be after he tries the elbow out in ST.
       That will be a real bummer for the Angels…since he is only on a two year minor league contract and then becomes an official free agent again in 2020.

       1. The teams that were in on Ohtani in the end knew he had “damaged” his elbow and had taken medical precautions.

86. I think the Neshek and Hunter signings, while they are slight overpays, are darn near brilliant. The Phillies can afford the overpays right now, they shore up a bullpen, they give themselves future trade chips, but also have signed those guys for long enough that they can keep for a while them if they suddenly find themselves in contention. In Hinkie speak, these deals give them excellent “optionality.”

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I think this new group really thinks carefully and tries to do the right thing in the right way. Their game plan is really very sound. What is unclear is how good they are at judging talent (and don’t get me wrong, that may be the biggest thing), but the approach is superb.

87. Despite Kenney’s assertion that bull penning is the new black… pitching Starting pitching to be precise still rules the day. Bull Penning can only work to the extent that you have a rotation of at least 3-4 guys with ERA’s that don’t exceed or are equal to your line-ups run production.

    Otherwise your BP is going to be cooked by June 30th.

    Now I don’t buy that the Phillies are not interested in at least one of the top flight starters that are out there despite the posturing to the contrary. If we get to mid-January and we haven’t done anything to sure up the rotation then I’ll bark.

    It really surprises me that all the whining that used to occur that this ownership doesn’t spend money and acts like they are small market has somehow been stifled because of some perception that an analytic minded FO is running the show therefore its ok.

    Tom Verducci who I happen to have a high degree of respect for as a pitching analyst ranked 5 pitchers with the best stuff. Charlie Morton he said was 5 go figure.

    1. DMAR…..what I found interesting was that Tom Verducci had to further clarifiy those rankings a little more, when pressed by the panel when they mentioned Kershaw, Geinke, Berrios and a few others he left out of that top 5.

    2. Morton improved his stuff between the time he left the Pirates and came to the Phillies. His stuff was excellent for the short time he was on our team (which is why I had hoped they would keep him) and got even better with Houston.

88. Jim, Thank You for your report. I am thrilled to hear that Sixto and Kingery are almost untouchable. I am certainly willing to go after Duffy. I don’t know who is expendable from the 40 for us to be active in the Rule V, but maybe there is a 2 or 3 for 1 trade brewing?

    1. Curtis could be DFAed today perhaps.

    2. That’s why neither pitcher has been officially signed and added to roster. Curtis is certainly next. After that? I guess it’s the middle infielder.

       1. That is the question….Jim just reported they were added.
          What are MLB rules on this with FA signings and 40 activation?

          1. Guys have to get physicals before the contracts are official and they’re added to 40. I’m sure the Phillies will make a selection in the rule 5 tomorrow. They’ll need to drop Curtis soon either way.

          2. The Phillies themselves have not announced the signings, websites says. “Set to add”

89. Listening to Klentak comments, it sounds like they’ll carry 8 in the pen and only 4 on the bench. 1 will be a catcher, 1 an IF, 1 an OF and 1 probably a pinch hit bat. Due to 40 man roster pressure, I think Quinn will make the 25 (or go on the 60 day DL), and Valentin will also if healthy. I’m assuming Galvis and Cesar will be traded and one of these spots will go to Florimon and one to a starting pitcher. It will be fun to monitor it.

    1. There really is no such thing as a pinch hit bat anymore (not enough roster spots for that with 13 pitchers). Any player who pinch hits must either play a platoon or otherwise have some residual value in the field.

       1. You’re right but in this case it could be Joseph.

          1. The whole bench could be Joseph, Knapp, Valentin, and Quinn. 4 man bench. Florimon can play all over which helps and Hoskins can play LF too. Valentin and Kingery will swap places around June 1 and Florimon will go to the bench if he doesn’t start there (with Valentin starting).

             1. That’s why I think Joseph will be moved at some point before opening day (unless he arrives at ST and puts on the hitting show of all shows – you never know). Keeping Joseph takes away needed ABs from Knapp at first base. You need at least another back-up who can play other IF positions. One guy (Valentin) is not enough.

                1. I don’t see a need to get Knapp at bats at 1B. In fact, I think he might be the AAA C to start the year. Joseph to me would be power off the bench. I’m also still hoping they sign Chase to start for two months before he goes to the bench. That would be very cool.

                2. Keeping Joseph wastes a roster spot for a player who can only play 1 position. If he doesn’t start he’s not a viable bench player for a NL team. his offense isn’t good enough to restrict the bench that much…

                3. ToJo is basically a one trick pony at this point.
                   Klentak should try shopping him to an AL team for at least at the minmum int’l money. Seeing what some prospects have garnered in return money…ToJo should bring back a reasonable sum.

90. McGee off the board

91. Klentak did a great job getting two guys signed on 2 year deals. All these other guys are getting 3 year deals, not always a good thing with a pen arm.

92. The Phils only have 5 OF in the 40-man (Doobie, Nick, AA, Quinn and Cozens) and with the acquisition of 2 RPs, the total pitchers rose to 24 (of 40). Curtis is probably the #40 and will be next one in the chopping block as the Phils need to add probably a couple of bench OFs. Klentak can use the Rule V to add at least a bench OF. Some of the names I will consider Ryan O’Hearn (LH) – 1B/LF/RF, Jason Martin (LH) – LF, Ian Miller (LH) – LF and Jon Kemmer (LH) – LF.

    INF Travis Demeritte of the Braves appears to be a popular name but the Phils has influx of INF in their pipeline.

    1. Wasn’t Ian Miller the name of the John Corbett character in My Big Fat Greek Wedding? He better come to the Phillies with a Windex bottle!

    2. I agree, I think they’ll choose an OF to compete with Quinn for a spot on the 25. Burch and Burdi, both pitchers, could go 1-2 but if they don’t, Phils might take one of them.

       1. Don’t forget, the Phils could also draft someone at 3 for another team and then trade them for a player not required to be on the 40.

          1. Murray … great minds think alike !!! I posted the same thing below and further above.

             1. Good point, guys. That’s why they pay you the big bucks! Oh, wait a minute . . .

          2. yeah, the PTBNL strategy. i can see at least 5 players in the 40-man who can be dealt for PTBNL or cash before ST

93. I think the Phillies will wait until after tomorrow’s rule 5 draft to officially sign Neshek and Hunter. IMO, Klentak will draft someone with the third pick, and then trade him to another team for a younger prospect or J2 money.

94. Wonder if the Phillies do anything else. I am leaning towards yes.

    1. As I’ve said, for the right price and years, a Darvish signing really does make sense for them, assuming they believe in the player and his health.

       1. I would like that signing as well. Read that they are still talking to the Dodgers. He jump starts their contention clock IMO.
          No reason why the Phillies cant be the Cubs of 2015.

          1. I don’t see the core as being as ready as the 2015 Cubs, but I guess you never know.

             1. Signing Darvish would at a minimum show the fan base and other potential FAs that the Phillies are intending to compete for that wild card at least.
                Now he may not want to come to Philly…that is another story.

                1. Darvish is overrated, I don’t want him for all that money

                2. Have you noticed there is no speculation on Darvish? Report on MLB network just a bit ago that multiple GMs say he’s asking for way too much money – right now. Everybody is waiting for Yu’s expectations and price to come down.

                3. What is Darvish asking price right now?
                   He may not be in the Scherzer/Greinke/Price/Kershaw category.

95. McGee got 3 yrs,hence no Phils interest .

96. Source: Marcel Ozuna has been traded to the Cardinals. The deal is pending a physical.

    — Jesse Sanchez (@JesseSanchezMLB) December 13, 2017

    That leaves Yelich next on Jeter’s “to do” list. Though, he may wait until the summer to trade him.

    1. MIA is willing to trade Yelich after trading Stanton and Ozuna

       1. KuKo…..do you think the Phillies would be inetersted in making Yelich a corner if they trade for him? And does he fit the bat profile as a corner?

          1. @romus – Yelich can easily switch to LF (or the Phils can try him to RF) and still be a plus defender, He may not profile as a power hitting corner OF but Yelich can be a productive player hitting in the heart of the order. I think Yelich power numbers can still go up. I like Yelich and will acquire him as long as it will not cost Sixto and Kingery.

             1. Yelich is a 18bWAR player over 5 years…..and on a great contract…it will be costly I assume in terms of prospects.

                1. straight up yes. if Stanton not invoking his no-trade clause, Klentak will probably work harder to push the Stanton-Yelich trade package.

                   As of now, the Phils might need to absorb contracts (i.e. Chen, Prado, Volquez, Tazawa) to lower the price. I can Jeter accepting a combination of prospects and pre-arb MLB ready players for Yelich.

                2. KuKo…..well it might a moot point now….Marlins I understand now are pulling Yelich off the trade table.

                3. Here’s where we’d absorb some of Miami’s bad money, BUT Volquez was just let go by the Marlins, so he’s no use to us. If we can trade Cesar and Doobie for a really good SP, Yelich would be an ideal fit…and it’s been well published that MacKlentak like him a lot. I’d include either Moniak or Haseley in the package as well. How many lefty hitting CFs will we need, after all?

       2. That poor fan base. I would disown that team. Their answer is be perpetually rebuilding …. All that team needed was pitching. The MLB should have blocked the sale of they were just going to fire sale everything.

          1. They may get back quality pieces for Ozuna and Yelich.
             So it isn’t a complete white washing of the team.
             Stanton’s return was below what I thought they could have received.
             Even if they recd just Gleyber Torres alone…it would have been somewhat fairer than what they actually settled for from the Yankees. Castro still could be a good middle infielder for them…or flipped, who knows. but they should have recd more quality.

          2. Fan base? What fan base? Miami doesn’t even merit a MLB franchise based on the area’s demographics.

             1. Miami and Tampa will always be small market teams regardless of their metros’ populations.

                Florida is comprised of people from somewhere else. When you meet somebody down here, the first question you ask is “where are you from?” because you know they aren’t from Florida and didn’t grow up rooting for the Fish or the Rays.

                Somebody did a survey a year or so ago and found that 4 percent of Floridians are Phillies fans and 6 percent are Cub fans. It just so happens that 4 percent of Floridans are from Philadelphia and 6 percent from Chicago. In other words, people tend to root for their hometown teams and not adopt the Florida teams. (The survey included other cities, but the Phils and Cubs are the ones I remember.)

                In this environment, with retirees constantly dying off and being replaced, and with snow birds leaving for home when their teams break camp, Miami and Tampa will never have the fan support — thus money — of other cities of comparable population.

                1. On a related note, I would really be upset if I were a Marlins fan. Imagine, trading away the heart of the team to cut spending. Not inspiring me to stick with them.

                   On a related note, thanks to our new world of free agency developed into what it has become, we have a case of an MVP hitting 59 home runs being traded away to cut costs. Former Phillies GM John Quinn must be rolling over in his grave.

       3. Jeter is supposedly going to talk to Yelich about his preference either to stay or move on. Talk about no-brainers.

    2. My guess the Marlins get RHP Sandy Alcantara and perhaps one of the three OFers that the Cardinals have a glut of… Randall Grichuk, O’Neill or Bader..

       1. MIA expressed interest in Flaherty, Hudson and Alcantara so MIA might get 2 of them Plus another OF whether its Bader or Grichuk or Piscotty.

          1. Understand Piscotty is going out west to Oakland I read or one of the teams out there..
             His mother was recently diagnosed with ALS and he wants to be playing close to his home and the Cardinals are going to try to oblige.

             1. For whatever reason so many people hate the Cards but that was a classy move by them.

97. Phils closing on another 70 win season. Klentak ty

    1. rocco.. I will run down Broad Street naked if the Phillies lose more than 92 games. 🙂
       On second thought make that 95.

       1. Romus do broad street. 95 has a lot of traffic

          1. rocco….95 wins …not the Interstate.

             1. oops…95 losses.

    2. ??? All he has done so far is improve the team. I don’t understand what you want from the man. Both relievers are great additions and on shorter length than the market is dictating (which is a HUGE win with how volatile relievers are).

       Are you upset that we haven’t been trading for the OFers that we don’t need? Or that we’ve held onto our prospects?

       There are exactly two gripes to have about this offseason so far: we didn’t snag more of the Braves prospects and we didn’t get one of the reclamation pitchers (Smyly, Pineda, etc.). But even those have mitigating factors. The Braves prospects that were signed by others were likely outbid by those teams (if we spent 2M of our money from next season we’d be burning at LEAST one bridge with a prospect we promised to sign). And those pitchers would require a 40 man spot. Klentak seems to be saving the 40 man spots for as long as he can, so it’s a shame that they just happened to sign already.

       1. Right on, Dan. Agree with you 100 %.
          Give the young guys plenty of PT this year, sign MM (and maybe a couple of other players) next winter, and deal from excess prospects for a younger player/pitcher on a team friendly deal next offseason.

          The other thing I’d like Klentak do this week is set the groundwork for April deals that will net the Phillies comp picks in what promises to be a very robust 2018 rule 4 draft. The one I keep coming back to is … send a non prospect to Miami for Edinson Volquez, a lottery ticket, and the Marlins comp B pick.

          1. Hinkie….Marlins released Volquez this afternoon…there goes that.

       2. Problem is what good are relief pitchers, when you cant score and your starters cant go more than 5 innings. I must be missing something.

          1. I’d say you missed the second half of last season if you’re worried about hitters. Three months to go before opening day. Plenty of time to find a starting pitcher or two.

          2. In the second half (i.e. after we traded off the rentals and the young guns started to come up), the Phils were 10th in runs scored in baseball (6th in the NL), with the only non-playoff teams in front of them being the Cards (who just missed) and the Marlins (thanks to a certain now-departed slugger going nuts).

             As for the starters, on the year they were middle of the pack (14th) and averaged 5.5 IP per start. And that’s after being hurt by Eickhoff having a bad year and having Pivetta and Thompson make more than just a couple of spot starts.

             (All decimals are fractions, so 0.2=2/10, not 2/3) Nola averaged 6.2 IP, VV averaged 5.76, Lively 5.91, and Leiter 5.52. Eickhoff only managed 5.33 in 24 starts after averaging over 6 IP per start in his career.

             And then there’s Pivetta’s 26 starts averaging 5.12 IP and Thompson’s 8 averaging 5.17.

             So even in a bad year for our young pitchers (health wise and regression for a couple), they still did what you said they couldn’t. Is it unreasonable to expect some bounce back from Eick? Or maybe some improvement out of one of them? Plus, no one said they were done making additions. Just because they STARTED by signing some relievers doesn’t mean we’re not still adding a SP or two.

             All of this to say, maybe the issue is you’re suffering from some confirmation bias based on some limited anecdotal evidence.

             1. Dan next time write a book. ERA of starters liter 4.98, nola 3,54. lively 4.25, VV. 5.24 effin 6.26 . I guess that’s good enough to win 90 games. I wonder what you are smoking. There starters stink. sorry. plain and simple.

                1. rocco….Nola’s ERA at 3.5 runs is not bad.
                   The other just may need more experience…this year is their probation for a lot of them.
                   Klentak said his number one item is ….run prevention….be it a starter that can help to do that or their defense.

                2. You’re moving the goalposts, Rocco. And really? You have an issue with people being thorough?

                   There is a literal chasm between winning 72 games and winning 90 games.

                   VV had a bad year. Lively was a serviceable #4. Nola was great. Incredible, in fact. If you actually have a complaint about a starter posting a sub-3.60 ERA before the age of 25, then you must have HATED Cole Hamels. By the way; nine. That was Nola’s rank among starters last year in FIP (min. 140 IP). NINTH. Ahead of such luminaries as Darvish, Verlander, Greinke, DeGrom, Keuchel, Archer, Duffy, Quintana, etc. etc. etc. Complaining about Nola? Seriously?

                   Plus, as mentioned, Eick has a career 3.87 so there’s reasonable optimism on a bounce back. Eflin has upside, but he was only a starter this year by necessity. VV has a sky high ceiling, obviously, but there’s risk. Having him as the number 5 is fine. Leiter? He was a warm body. Literally nobody is penciling him into the rotation.

                   And for some odd reason you keep assuming they’re done making additions. They don’t designate people off of the 40 man for no reason. More moves are coming. But even if we added zero new starters (which is a silly assumption since they’ve been linked to almost EVERY FA SP), the team is better than it was at this time last year.

                   So for curiosity sake, what moves would you make that this FO hasn’t? What mistakes would you correct?

                3. Nola was 20th in baseball in era at 3.54 . DeGrom era was 3.53 tied with Arrieta 3.35. now war Nola’s war 4.1 , Degrom 4.0 , Arrieta 2.4. Plus ,plus Nola only 24 very young.

          3. It just takes a really long time to build a solid major league franchise from the point where this franchise was in 2014. Not a good farm system. Too much payroll. Old AND bad major league players. Behind the times on analytics and almost everything else. Nearly a full fledged dumpster fire if you ask me.

             This rebuild is about 65-70 percent done and once we get closer to 75 of 80 percent, this team is going to start to take off. This next year, at least, the team should score runs and be fun to watch and should get appreciably better starting in 2019 (which is what we pretty much always thought would happen). After this 6 year water torture, I’ll take it some entertainment, thank you.

       3. I’m with you Dan. The bullpen has been upgraded in the first two days of the winter meetings. Lots of buzz about Galvis and Hernandez. Either or both could be traded soon, probably for pitching. MK will probably sign a FA bench outfielder. There are only three and a half months left until the season opener to get that done.

    3. Gonna jump back on the bandwagon when they end the season above .500?

98. BA Top 100 College Draftable Playuers:
    As expected 6 of the top 7 are pithers.
    Phillies should not go wrong here.
    https://www.baseballamerica.com/draft/college-top-100-mlb-draft-prospects-2018/#AAjWmf7oZkbOgOct.97

    1. Romus … for the third year in a row a Florida Gator is the #1 prospect. Of course AJ Puk and Alex Faedo couldn’t hold on to that ranking by draft time. I know everybody loves Brady Singer, but remember … he was a 2nd round pick out of HS. Toronto never signed him because an MRI showed a problem to his pitching arm. He went to the U of Florida, instead. He’s had a great career there, but has never had surgery, so MLB teams may/will have concerns about whatever the Blue Jays saw on that MRI. That could become a major story come this summer.
       I love Ethan Hankins and Matt Liberatore, but doubt the Phillies will roll the dice on a HS pitcher that high. I think I would draft one of the 3Bmen (Eierman, Gorman, or De Sedas), and go heavy on a very deep pitching class (both HS and college) in the second round and beyond.

       1. Hinkie……yes that is odd…Gators with Puk and Faedo pre-season numero uno fav picks and both faded….and Singer may have had those issues a few years ago….he has pitched 170 innings so far it seems without any issues. But will have to see what he does this spring.
          That Ble Jay MRI results are probably well known among the clubs…..I am sure another will be done to confirm or not confirm any underlying issues.
          hankins and Liberatore are very interesting HS pitchers……but sometimes they fall …remember Groom.
          Now Giants have taken HSers in the past….Bumgarner for one…..but not at 1.1
          Reds did it with Greene last year.at 2….so there is precedent.

       2. Hjelle at 20 ,Conine At 11 .

99. Romus when are we going to spring training? I need to get my airline ticket

    1. mid-March.

       1. Okay let me know what day., and I will meet you at airport. in fact I live near the airport. come to my house and my wife will drive us to airport.

          1. 😒🤔

    2. March 15-18 for me. Can’t wait. AlwYs a great time. Lenny’s, Island Way Grill, Columbia and lots of baseball.

       1. And do not forget mixed smack in the middle there……St Patty’s the green hat day…this year Braves are in

          1. And March Madness starts that week…

100. Hope MM doesnt give his new team any discounts come FA time – :The Orioles are “making good progress” toward a Machado trade, Brittany Ghiroli of MLB.com reports, though Dan Connolly of BaltimoreBaseball.com writes that a deal doesn’t appear imminent. There are more than five teams in the running for Machado, Ghiroli adds” per MLTBR

     1. Harper and Boras are also talking I see with Rizzo and the Nats.
        http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/bryce-harper-contract-extension-discussed-by-scott-boras-nationals-owners-492892.html

        Both Manny and Harper , IMO, will not hit free agency as i figured from the start.
        Though Manny should be wearing red pinstripes in my book.

        1. Worried next years epic class will soon be a dream

        2. I would almost bet my house both Manny Machado and Bryce Harper will the free agent market next winter. Clayton Kershaw will not.

           1. Hah…..you sure you want to do that bet….talk it over first with the wife and see what she says.

           2. * MM and BH will hit the free agent market.

           3. agreed

        3. Maybe Nats lock up Harper, but I seriously doubt the Orioles extend Machado.

        4. I’ll take that bet. They will both teach FA. Why not? Will they receive less than they’re offered now? Of course not

        5. I am concerned that both Harper and Machado , after a trade ( word is white sox are interested and they have the money to extend) will never make it to the free agent market leaving us with money to spend and no one to spend it on

     2. Either way, the reports are that the Phils are ONLY interested if he’ll do an extension. That is exactly what I want to hear. As much as I want Machado here, you don’t give up the kind of talent that it would take for a trade just for the HOPE that playing here makes him want to sign after the year. You can’t afford that gamble in a rebuild.

        1. There is also one more snag in the Manny scenario……he wants to go back to shortstop. I think that is if he plays with the Os this season…to increase his value I assume on the open market.
           He really has the Os over the barrel…a lame duck superstar.

           1. It’s hard to get a handle on if he just wants to boost his value for FA or not on that one. He’s stated that desire for a few years now.

              I wonder if the Phils would dangle JPC for young pitching/3B help if they had an agreement with Machado on the basis of him shifting to SS. I’d be very conflicted on that, personally.

              1. Yes….that is what I thought also…..JPC would be going to make room for Manny.
                 Just the report was he wanted to go to shorstop……but did not elaborate on whether or not it was with a new team if he is traded, or whether it is his last season in Baltimore to pump up his value.

                 The other thjing that struck me funny today….Klentak mentioned to Jim S……he has not been sleeping much at all these last few days, late nights and then eating……perhaps they are indeed negotiating with Dan Lozano and Manny and a deal for players has already been agreed upon between the Phillies and Os and now it is just getting him to sign a LTC..

        2. The Os do want controlled starters…..Phillies only have one good one, that is currently healthy…Nola.
           Then there was the talk of Sixto and Kingery in the package…..and had heard the Phillies nixed that also.
           If it ever is done…..I would have to assume Kilome and Eshelman will be included in the total package someway since they are both close to MLB ready.
           I like to think MacPhail has some basis of familiarity with Manny and his agent and can work out a LTC.

           1. I would do a package of Sixto and Kilome if it got us a negotiating window and long term deal with Machado before he hits free agency, but moving Nola would be somewhat counter intuitive to me given the state of rotation. Maybe a package of Sixto, Kilome, Eickhoff, Pivetta +

              1. My gauntlet to Baltimore: Kingery is off the table, and if we give them Sixto, we scale WAY back on the rest of the package. Franco, Velasquez, Kilome, either Moniak or Haseley, Cozens, perhaps even Herrera could all be in the mix.

                 1. 8mark….I was on board with Sixto yesterday….but rethinking it…I am not so sure.
                    Look how he comps to Pedro and Johnny Cueto in their first 175 innings pitched professionally. They are Latin with the same physical profile…under 6 foot and have some lower girth for push. Sixto comps favorabley with the both of them thru age 20season.
                    https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=martin004ped Pedro

                    https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=cueto-001joh Cueto

                    https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=sanche000six Sixto

              2. Ugh. I hate that deal. And you still have to pay him some ridiculous amount of money. It won’t happen and thank God for that.

                 1. Trading for Machado is a hated idea only by those that think the Phillies are in best position to acquire top names from next year’s FA class. Why so certain of that when another 10 teams will surely be in the bidding? Securing an extension with Machado before he hits free agency would be a huge coup for Klentak and the organization, a coup that is absolutely worth moving Sixto and Kilome. If Sixto is moved for Machado, you’ll be one of 6 people in the entire Delaware Valley who disapproves

101. I would do Nola. Williams Eickhoff, morgan. Kilome for Machado if he signs extension. I am on the band wagon that sixto is untouchable.

     1. rocco…i know you do think Nola will amount to much….but Nola, Kilome and Williams may get you Machado…I do not think Eickhoff and Morgan excite them much.

102. Kinsler to angels. There goes the destination for CeHe

     1. Bummer….maybe Freddy to the Padres still?

        1. As a few minutes ago, it hadn’t completed yet and there’s thought another team upped their offer

     2. Yep – although I always had difficulty matching a return from the Angels. Bedrosian, Skagg type deals. Meh. Perhaps best

103. Good news for you, Rocco. Looking more like Cesar will remain a Phillie.

     Source: Kinsler to #Angels.

     — Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) December 14, 2017

     1. I guess it’s possible Kinsler could play 3B for the Angels and they could still deal for CeHe to play 2B. Probably not likely, but you never know.

        1. Hnkie…looks like Angels are looking somewhere else for their third baseman.
           http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/angels-reportedly-close-to-acquiring-chase-headley-492986.html

           1. I can live with them losing Tocci (decent player but very low ceiling) and Davis (good arm, but he’s a middle reliever at best, they’ll survive the loss) but have to admit that I’m a little concerned about them losing Pullin. Odds say he won’t develop into a regular, but there’s chance that he could end up being pretty darned good. But I’m not sure what they could do about that – I agree that, for all his weaknesses, you can’t leave Cozens hanging out there. So we’ll see.

              1. This is exactly what bothers me about Klentak’s lack of creativity….that other GMs do not suffer with and seem to grasp things better.

                 He leaves Davis unprotected.
                 The Os showed some small semblance of interest.
                 Why not have some foresight in Aug/Sept and trade him to the Os for int’l money…..they are giving it away…they signed no Latin players in July past and may not sign any next J2 period.
                 If he only brings back $300K….you can sign a good yuongster for that amount or it can be added onto a larger sign.
                 If you look at all the top teams with the best farm systems……most all are well littered with Latin signees thru out….hek the BA Top Ten prospect list has 6/7 of the top ten as Latin players.
                 Oy vey!

                 1. Romus, agree that Matt Klentak is showing lack of creativity in not making trades for International Money, not being flexible in dealing with other teams and not using the Phillies greatest strength(Money) in trades. I am not thrilled with the two relief pitchers signed by him as I want to see a big splash in starting pitching.

              2. Losing Andrew Pullin could haunt the Phillies down the road if he ever learns to hit LHP.

                 1. Did he get selected?
                    I cannot find who selected him.
                    https://www.baseballamerica.com/majors/2017-rule-5-draft-pick-pick/#Dc6d6FKSAvqHvRlq.97

                 2. Romus, you are correct in that Pullin was not picked.

104. Cesar is not going to Angels. They got Kinsler

105. I like Jim Salisbury, and I think he has really good insights to what is going on. He said the Phils ask for Cesar was 2 ML ready SPs. I don’t want to debateCesar again, but that is a crazy price! More likely Galvis goes, Kingery stays in LHV, and Florimon and Valentin battle for back up INF slot. Still need a SP and not getting 1 for Freddy.

     1. Kinsler will turn 36 in ’18. How is that a shrewd move on their part? Plus Ohtani’s elbow is now hanging over their head. Not sure these moves are gonna keep Trout in LA.

        Speaking of which, anybody have more clarity on that CA labor law that would technically release him from his current contract beyond 2018?

        1. I posted nola era. its good era. I posted all era. I just don’t think they will improve with these starters. is my point, i think it would be stupid to only post the bad ones. nola had a decent season. i Am not in love with him. I see a guy who hangs too many breaking balls. not a tor guy. even a two is a reach to me .I am only giving my opinion. Kinsler i just don’t see the love for a 35 yr old whos number last year weren’t great . i don’t know how good a fielder he is. but that’s maybe a stop gap for angels, i don’t know there minor league system.

        2. Hernandez would have looked good at the top of that Angels batting order

        3. Two MLB ready arms are a bit much to be asking for Cesar. If it’s true, MacKlentak dropped the ball here.

     2. Time will tell but it sounds like Klentak is asking for too much. We might have another Colangelo situation of Noel and Okafor where nothing was good enough and then ended up with nothing.

        1. @murray – this has been exactly my point (not being too greedy for Cesar) which made me being tagged as a Cesar hater. Klentak and Colangelo do have similarity with the approach — over thinking and risk averse.

106. Dan Plesac on MLB TV: “When Mike Trout’s contract runs out in three more years, I don’t know that he’ll be back with Angels.” Like I’ve been saying for a year now, Trout will sign his next contract with one of two teams … Angels or Phillies.

107. How about expanding the MM trade to add Britton. Take on the Trumbo contract to lessen the prospects. If your SP can only go 5 innings at least have a dominant BP. My offer is Crawford cause MM wants to play SS, either Moniak or Haseley, 1 of Romero/Medina/Kilome, and One of Eflin/Thompson/Lively/Eshelman. Would throw more in if not enough

     1. … or … Klentak could wait 10 months and sign Manny Machado and Zach Britton for just (lots of) money and give up no prospects.

        1. The pressure is mostly on Duquette to move and get as much as possible for MM sooner than later. Let’s not forget that. We may have to run the reasonable risk of waiting, even if another club manages to acquire him, unless he agreed to an extension which consensus is he most likely won’t. Keep the “untouchable” prospects and if the O’s won’t bite for our depth of talent, wait until next winter.

108. CeHe better be traded this yr next yr with the FA 2nd class his value drops. I still say Phillies make a play for Lynn or Duffy.I do wonder what the Mets have to give for Ceaser.

109. hmmmmm some scouts are looking
     http://metsmerizedonline.com/2017/12/six-players-mets-should-look-at-in-rule-5-draft.html/

110. I always liked Edinson Volquez and assuming he is healthy at least to me seems a better lottery ticket than most the Phils have punched the last two years in the starting pitcher category!

     1. Volquez is out for 2018 with TJ surgery.

        1. 8mark….Phillies can still do what the Twins did with Pineda and whoever did it with Smyly yesterday…..sign him to a two year contract worth $10M…….$5MAAV, but really when he pitches again in 2019 it is like a one year $10M contract…..he could be a valuable pitche in the rotation or a trade chip.

111. One rumor had the Phillies losing LHP Austin Davis to the Os in the Rule 5 this morning.
     I liked him ..big strong lefty reliever that throws strikes.

     1. trade Davis to O’s for Machado straight up

112. Sounds like white six want MM long term. They have better prospects.

     1. If the WSox get him, and he signs a LTC….shame on the Phillies.
        They better hope Franco turns it around starting next season.

        1. Why would he sign long term?

           1. $$$ stop posting that you don’t understand!

              1. MM is not passing up FA. If, as you say, it’s about $$$, he’ll make a lot more waiting 10 months and negotiating with every team.

                 1. Bingo!!!

113. Having a fairly deep farm system, the Phillies are certain to lose some good players today in the Rule 5 draft. They lost Milner last year and he is now their loogy bullpen guy. I have to assume that they weighed carefully whom they put on the 40 man roster. I try to concentrate on this being a sign that we now have a good farm that is giving us some excellent prospects.

114. From CSN Philly (Hate the new name.

     Klentak hinted that hard-throwing pitching prospect Seranthony Dominguez would begin transitioning to the bullpen in spring training. Mark Appel will also make the move to the bullpen.

115. Tocci selected 4th, good for him. We’ll see if he sticks we took Burdi the pitcher who will be hurt all year but has a great arm. I hope we keep him rather than trade him, he has real upside.

     1. if they had available 40 man spots now and next year, sure. but 50 walks in 104 career innings and coming back from the surgery, i’d rather deal for someone else we dont have to put on the 40.

116. We knew someone would take a shot on Tocci. The Twins Pitcher is supposed to be good, and he is a piece for the future. Not sure what the rules are for injured Rule V guys, but I think they keep him until some point in ST, then can put him on 60 day disabled list and keep his rights.

     1. matt13…the selected player must remain active (not on the disabled list) for a minimum of 90 days.

117. Cesar would have looked very good in Angels lineup. But, the ask, if accurate, and I trust Salisbury, is way too high. I think the Phils have no intention of moving Kingery up until June, at least, and when they finally trade Cesar, it will be for a lot less than they asked for. Still need another SP!

     1. could be a next offseason move too. Got to see how the 3B situation pans out too

     2. There’s no reason to trade Hernandez unless they get an offer that meets their asking price. I could see Kingery filling an Ian Happ type role for the team. He can fill in at SS and 3rd and get at bats at 2B and the OF.

        Depth is a beautiful thing to have.

118. Rule 5:
     Phillies select Nick Burdi from Twins, trade him to Pirates for international slot money
     Carlos Tocci taken by White Sox, sold to Rangers
     Former farm hand Angelo Mora who signed with Orioles selected by Dodgers

     Why international slot money? Phillies are rumored to be fielding a second GCL team. They can use the international money to help fill out the two DSL rosters after they move players to the GCL. (just spec on my part)

     1. Thanks Jim….always like that int’l slot money.
        They did sign over 60 players last year for their two DSL teams…so they should have plenty now with added money coming, for the two proposed GCL teams.
        With two teams….you will be busy this summer…better hire an intern asst…..rocco??????

     2. Thanks, Jim. I suspected the Phillies might draft and trade for J2 money. Hopefully, they use that J2 money for a better prospect. They can sign as many prospects as they like for less than 300 thousand dollars (I believe) to fill out their DSL rosters. I’d still like to see the Phillies ink former Brave Juan Contreras or former Braves SS Ji Hwan Bae.

        1. Hinkie – my thoughts exactly. I keep wondering how many of the Braves prospects are left – 5 or so ? but I know Contreras is still out there.

        2. @Hinkie, yes, that’s what I meant, better prospects for the DSL with the additional international dollars

119. A couple other tidbits I picked up in Orlando but left out in my earlier post:
     – Phillies interviewed 4 candidates for first base coaching job this weekend, 2 internal and 2 external, Juan Samuel was one of the internal interviews, salary is not the hold up for a possible Samuel selection (meaning, I think, that he won’t necessarily have to take a pay cut to move off third base, my interpretation of the conversation)
     – Art Charles is likely to play in Korea or Japan next season
     – and I spoke briefly with Jonathan Mayo Tuesday (he and Jon Heyman are both taller than I expected, I guess people look smaller on TV)

120. I see a window opening for a trade with the tigers for CeHe.

     Interesting that the rangers picked up Tocci. He could stick as a 4th or 5th OF. Watch him add 25 pounds this offseason…

     1. If Tocci adds 25 pounds it will mostly be pure fat – I’m telling you, he doesn’t have the frame to put on 25 pounds properly – he’s built like a cross country runner – skinny limbs, narrow shoulders, tiny waist and all. It’s a miracle he’s as good as he is.

        1. Tocci is Tyler Goedel … only thinner.

           1. @hinkie – both Tocci and Goeddel probably have similar ceiling (which is a 4th OF) but I think Tocci can be a better MLB player due to his plus defense in a premium position and a better hitter.

              I never liked Goeddel. None of his skills are deemed plus. I actually like Perdomo and Guduan in that draft class (Klentak drafted Goddel and Stumpf).

121. Thanks Romus, I rely on you for tge rules. Someone here yesterday suggested picking someone and trading for Intl $, they were correct

     1. Matt Klentak alluded to this earlier in the week. He speaks freely.

122. Are all of the “12” signed yet? Isn’t the top pitcher still unsigned? Do we know if the extra $500K is for this year or next year? July 2 starts the next year.

     1. I just saw a note from Zolecki who said the $500K was for the 17-18 pool, so it’s for the next 16 yr old old in July. I’m glad we kept Pullin, he has a chance to make an appearance in Philly this year if he gets his stroke back. With a 4 man bench and Quinn one of those 4, Cozens is definitely next man up and Pullin after him.

        1. Oh man, Salisbury is reporting the $500K is for this year and needs to be used by June 15. Who is correct,Salisbury or Zolecki? I’ll bet it’s Jim…..

           1. Salisbury

           2. By the way I think there are still some top 50 int. Prospects (non brave FAs) who have not signed, so there may be players to spend money on yet right now

              1. Sdchphl….correct Raimfer Salinas is a top ten OF prospect from the Ven along with his buddy Antonio Cabello, a catcher…Yankees were suppose to be front runners, but something has happened and they reman unsigned….also both are trained by the same guy.
                 Initially, pure speculation, I thought the Braves were involved and they were part of the investigation, this the reason they remained unsigned for these last 5 months….not so sure now.

              2. I think Jelfry Marte, the kid the Twins signed and voided over his physical (over a failed eye exam I heard) is still available. He was originally signed for about $3M. The Twins were still interested at a lower figure after they voided the contract. He’s a 16-year old Dominican shortstop.

                 1. They voided his contract due to eye issues that BA’s Ben Badler reported..whether or not that is true or not remains to be seen.

                 2. Mart is signing with TV for 850 thousand dollars.

                 3. Auto correct is a pain. Meant to post Martel is signing with TB.

        2. The 2017/18 signing period runs from July 2 2017 to June 2018. Trades for money to spend can only be made after July 2 for the ensuing period. So the 500,000 has to be spent before June 2018 for eligible players, also I think that only bonsues under 10000 do not count against the pool

        3. I think the Phillies will start the year with a 4 man outfield (Altherr, Williams, Herrera, and Quinn) with Hoskins as the 5th outfielder. In the event of an injury, Lehigh is only an hour away.

123. Ahh, that’s too bad. Tocci may only profile as a 4th or 5th outfielder, but I hate that we lost him for $50K. That is a bad call by the front office. Should have traded him this summer.

     Steve from Tampa, looks like your 1% chance came in — not only selected, but selected 4th! Maybe Longenhagen knows a little bit . . .

     Steve (Tampa); November 23, 2017 at 5:23 AM
     I’ll have to drop a note into Eric (Longenhagen) then. Tocci may not OPS .500 in the NL West next year. Not joking. He’s a gifted defender, but he’s not Pillar or Buxton type of gifted. For past three off seasons I maintained there was a 0% chance of Tocci being selected – this year there’s maybe a 1% chance.

     1. $100K

     2. WC – lol, nice find. I did recall my odds. Always liked Tocci, but really don’t view it as a loss in the grand scheme of things. Now, whether he is retained all season is another question (1% chance he isn’t retained?)

124. Here’s the scoop on the Phillies and Manny Machado from Matt Gelb http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/phillies-free-agent-manny-machado-orioles-winter-meetings-third-baseman-matt-klentak-20171211.html
     In a nutshell, the Phillies want MM, but (wisely) aren’t going to trade prospects for him when they can entice him with hundreds of millions of dollars next winter (and hold on to their prospects).

     1. Ideally I agree with the FO to wait, but if the opportunity exists to trade away some quality prospects for Machado, with a signing window .. I’d do it … To ensure we get him. Offer 300-350 over 10, that should get it done. I’d be open to everybody but Hoskin, Kingery, and Nola. I’d think real hard about Sixto, Alfaro, and Ortiz. But I’d proabbly do it, you guys know the saying …

        One bird in the hand … The Phillies can do a number of things … To make this work. I’m hoping Klentak gets it done, because it is risky to let MM hit FA. Don’t get me wrong, they could still get him then, but their is competition and the dynamics change if Harper is extended before he hits FA….

        Somethings to really think about.

        1. The one thing the Phillies can’t do is force MM to agree to negotiate a LTC when he’s 10 months away from being able to negotiate with every team. Machado and Harper aren’t signing extensions. They’re hitting free agency next winter.

           1. I like the Phils to sign both Machado and the Douche next offseason and Mike Trout 2 offseasons after.

              1. KuKo … how about two out of three ? MM and Mike Trout are very good possibilities.

                 1. @Hinkie – I lost of Ohtani so I want more. Just like your love for comp pick, I love them premium players!!

                    The Douche is probably the best fit for what the Phils need (RF and lefty), I agree with you that Machado and Trout are better possibilities.

125. Mark Appel … I know he cleared waivers … put was he exposed in the rule 5 draft on the mlb or minor league side?

     If he was, and not selected … that has to be motivating

     1. Tac3,,,he was DFAed….and had 10 days as a ‘free agent’ so to speak to sign or get picked-up by any team.

126. TEX used to like Tocci before and even offered more $$ but Tocci feels more comfortable with the Phillies and signed for less money. 6 years after, TEX still got Tocci, the time when Tocci is close to MLB ready. Gone is the most polarizing prospect in the Phillies organization.

     Although Tocci only profiles as a back up OF, i prefer that the Phils protected him from Rule V and utilized as the back up OF.

     1. Why do people care so much about Tocci? He has such minimal value and he would be a 5th outfielder at best. They can’t protect everyone. The only legitimate criticism is that maybe they could have traded him – but for what?

        1. i’m not sure if people are “caring” about Tocci. As far as I can see and read, people debate on Tocci on how his upside and limitations translate to MLB play.

           The reason why i like Tocci to be protected is because the Phils need a bench OF – currently they only have 5 OF in the 50-man (Doobie, Nick, AA, Quinn and Cozens). Whether the Phils will go for a 1-OF or 2-OF in the bench, they will need a bench OF knowing that Quinn is an injury waiting to happen. The Phils themselves acknowledged that they are not expected to contend in 2018 so why not use that opportunity to evaluate some borderline MLB talents that they have.

           I’m saying Tocci as a back up OF so don’t put this out of context. I rather see Tocci or Pullin given the opportunity to bat in MLB than a journeyman.

           1. No, I understand people aren’t focused on Tocci the person per se – obviously, it’s in his role as a baseball player.

              I see him as a guy who has absolutely no future role on this team whatsoever. He does play great defense, but a guy like Quinn does that too and has much more offensive upside and there are yet other contenders for an extra outfield spot. So if he doesn’t have trade value, I’m fine with him going his merry way in Rule 5.

              1. I used to love Quinn and love him even up to know. But one thing I learned from my coach is — Availability is the best ability …. With the 40-man roster currently constructed, it looks like Quinn will be the 4th OF. But if the Phils intend to use a 4-man reserve, they cannot rely on Quinn to be their main bench OF (I assume the other 3 are — C, INF and UTIL). If the Phils do a 5-man with 2 OF — they may need to sign a veteran FA since it will be counterproductive to their development if Quinn and Cozens to fight for limited at bats from the bench.

                 Rather than see Nava or some journeyman, I rather want to see Tocci get some MLB at bats and see what he can do in the outfield. Then they can decide if they can keep him, trade of DFA.

                 Heck, I rather draft one of the lefty OFs (that i posted yesterday) than see another journeyman coming from the bench.

                 1. Well, you’re certainly entitled to your opinions on Tocci. I don’t see the upside or utility of keeping him around. He’s the type of guy you’re always looking to replace. If he had more of ceiling I might feel differently. But, you never know, maybe you are right. We will see.

127. I think tocci, from what I have heard can play outfield for them. but will he hit?? Tex with the dh can carry him I think over a national league team.

128. Right now, klentak is about as conservative as they come. No risk taking, totally sticking to the plan. No starting pitching except maybe Nola is a recipe for another bad season. Looking like another lost season. Missed opportunity on dealing CH. wondering if Klentak is in way over his head.

     1. What should he do? They will add a starter. They offered to Chatwood but he went to Cubs. Tigers didn’t get much for Kinsler. CeHe shouldn’t be traded for a bag of balls. They aren’t going to trade for 1 year of MM. O’s don’t look to be willing to grant a 72 hr window.

     2. Snakeman,

        You’re talking ballplayers. He certainly is taking a chance on the managerial level with Kapler.

     3. Every GM takes risks, including Matt Klentak.

        Making a trade involves risk. Signing a free agent involves risk. Not making a trade involves risk. Not signing a free agent involves risk. Every decision on taking an action or not taking an action involves risk. So, certainly, devising a plan for the future and “sticking to the plan” involves risk.

        1. GMs are hired to make decisions and decision making is married to risks. While I acknowledged that action or inaction in the part of Klentak involved risks, it the level or risk and mitigation thereof are the areas where Klentak is lacking.

           My assessment of Klentak’s decision making gives me an impression of low risk approach, thus, the lack of aggressive and creativity in his deal making. Klentak approach is similar to Bryan Colangelo which is in contrast to someone like Sam Hinkie or Howie Roseman who are displayed aggressiveness in their willing and dealing and show creativity in their decision making process (and massively criticized because of it).

           Klentak, Colangelo, Hinkie and Roseman as part of the job responsibilities take risks for the decisions and no-decisions they made. But Klentak and Colangelo took the LOW risk approach compare to the HIGH risk approach of Hinkie and Roseman. So the level of risk taking is where Klentak is behind.

           Most of the time, RISK is tied up to REWARD. Roseman’s creativity and high risk approach gave him Carson Wentz while Hinkie turned the NBA upside down but get the Sixers Embiid and Simmons.

           Although it’s still early tell, we can see that the HIGH risk approach can give you transcendent and generational talents in Wentz, Embiid and Simmons in which Klentak is hoping on lottery to get his.

           1. KuKo…..the real risk taker was Amaro when he moved Hamels and most of the core…..but then again there was little risk, since he knew he wasn’t going to be extended on his contract and the Phillies were in the middle of their doldrums.
              Klentak is now profitng from ttose moves in 2015 and earlier, and also the drafting/and int’l signings.

              1. @romus – RAJ is a curious case. I never really ripped RAJ for his decision making since RAJ is in a WIN-NOW timeline. To name a few, trading Lee away, trading for Doc and Oswalt, signing Paps are definitely moderate to high risk taking. This is a level of risk taking that I haven’t seen from McPhail and Klentak duo.

                 I’ve said this before, but my main issue with the RAJ regime is the slow action and reaction to change/situations (i.e. analytics and waiting to long trade players with value) and the lack of a sustainable game plan to maintain a pipeline of talents (i.e. poor scouting, poor player development, no resources in IFA, etc).

                 1. I was reading an article last week that said the team that brought up the trade is on the losing end 90% of the time.

           2. It’s so hard to compare these guys and what it is they should and should not be doing because the right approach to build a great team in each sport is so remarkably different.

              I see the comparison not so much as a risk taking issue as it is an issue of looking at the long view. I think the Phillies and Sixers have done a good job of this (much less so now that Brian is in charge of the Sixers – not too much of a fan of his so far) and the Eagles have too.

              I’m not sure what adventurous things the Phillies should have been doing so far. My view is that we are going to see soon (year or two) exactly how good and creative Klentak and company are, but now they are building the base and not trying to discard potentially valuable assets.

              1. @catch – i agree with you that the Phils are building for the future. But you don’t need wait until the future to take some action. What McPhail and Klentak are doing right now is telling that yeah we’ll contend in the future and all we do now is wait — make marginal moves here and there to show that they are not sleeping. What’s wrong with this approach?? Well nobody can predict what happens in the future. What if the Phils can’t sign any top FA? What it the top prospects did not pan out? What now? Go back to square one and declare that the last 4 years is a waste of time? I don’t think a smart management will pay a President and a GM millions of $$ just to tell them to wait for and wake up after 4 years. The GMs of the other rebuilding teams are far more busier in building their base and safety net for the future than Klentak.

                 As of now, the Phils have 4 things given: a) payroll flexibility; b) deep farm system; c) influx of MLB ready controllable players particularly RHP; and d) definite need in certain positions (i.e. SP, RP, etc). Klentak’s only move is to sign a couple of veteran RPs.

                 A lot of GMs this offseason transferred contracts, move marginal pieces to fill need and acquire international slots and some lower minor lottery pieces. Klentak is not one of those GM building blocks without discarding valuable assets.

        2. Likewise, Cashman of NYY showed the beauty of risk taking to turn around an aging and expensive franchise to contending team with loads of young talent. Cashman used the NYY resources (which is $$ which the Phils also have) to take risk on Chapman and acquire Stanton for peanuts and convert expensive contracts (McCann, Miller, Beltran) to high end prospects. Cashman also took risk on Judge and Sanchez and gave them opportunity despite of the significant red flags.

           I rather go thru some painful years like the Sixers to see a sound game plan down the road. Klentak is keeping his game plan close to his chest. For now, I will assume that McPhail and Klentak are following a game plan. Because to be honest, I don’t see any concrete game plan coming from them.

           1. KuKo…..now if Manny is a Phillie by Monday with a LTC in hand…..now that is some risk taking, do you agree?

              1. yes, that’s a legit big boy move by McPhail-Klentak duo.

129. Maybe Hoskins, nothing else currently to be excited about. The starter to be signed will be a 3-4 type pitcher. We will give Kapler time, but with one year of low A ball managing experience, this doesn’t smell good.
     We came out of these meetings with a stronger bullpen, nothing else.

     1. Snakeman you have to have faith, Look at Romus he has the best seats in the park. He is paying a lot of money to see a 69 win team. But he has faith that they will win 75 this year.

        1. rocco…..you bet….they cou;d easiy be .500 team the way Jeter is tearing down the Marlins and the Mets wondering who will be the healthy pitchers in their rotation..

130. I got ya, Roccom. It just seems like anything big, we pass and move on. Where to, I am not sure. Reports were they were looking for 2 SP for CH. So the Angels said no thanks, and went in another direction. Who besides Hoskins would you pay to see on this team currently? And don’t tell me Kapler, who isn’t a ‘ball player’.

     1. No, it’s a risk, because if Kapler fails, Matty K is one step closer to being fired.

        1. Exactly had MacPhail implied…..there are just so many managers in a GMs job.

        2. Catch very true. I know right now, with a gm who is saying we aren’t doing anything big this year. Why would a chatman come here over Chicago. If you don’t overpay they aint coming. And if our improvement is because florida is a minor league team. That to me is not what we were promised. This owner sounds like and you have to be older to remember this statement. Braman when asked about Reggie White. Money wont stop us. yeah he let all the players leave cause he wouldn’t pay. Right now with all that cash, If they paid a ton for someone and he stunk. they can afford it. but to tell a fan base, not this year. and I believe they raise prices is a disgrace. imo

           1. rocco…..that Comcast 25year/$2.5B deal is only in year three…..approx. $200M paid so far….(started at approx $65M per year with a gradual increase each year)
              So the money is there to eventually go out and do what they want to do ….plus, there on top of my ticket money! 🙂

           2. bullpen improving will help a ton. I believe at one point the Phillies bullpen had the most losses. The Phils second half record was 40-44….were in the top half for runs scored, etc. I truly believe we are looking at 80+ win team.

              1. Okay troll u please don’t force me to make a bet. Right now with those starters, you cant be serious that this is a 500 club.

           3. Well, I can understand your impatience. This losing crap has been going on a really, really long time. That said, the question is whether they are tricking us or are really going to spend money on this team at all. I truly believe they will, although it may not come soon enough for many suffering fans. They’ve spent money before in a big way, so there is much credibility to this promise.

     2. Which player that you would pay to see did you expect to get for Hernandez? Did you see what the Angels gave up in the Kinsler trade?

        1. I’ll start with a Cesar for Jo Addell swap. Then ask for Griffin Canning or Brandon Marsh + the 2 prospects (Montgomery, Hernandez) they give up to Kinsler for Cesar. Or Cesar for Canning or Marsh straight up and move on to Kingery.

        2. but kinsler is 35, making 11 mil for 2 more years, with a no-trade list, which limited Detroit’s options- Angels made sense as a trade partner willing to take on salary without many prospects to trade, so only the position he and Hernandez play are comparable.

     3. I see us winning at least 88 games, maybe as high as 90.

131. Not me, poor rotation currently. Better bullpen, currently the way the roster stands, 72-75 wins. They are not fooling me this year. Last year was an embarrassment.

     1. 72-75 wins is a fair prediction. They could win more if a few key rebuild players take a big step forward and if they are able to sign one good starting pitcher.

        1. I was thinking more like 74-80.

           1. catch you believe they are 500 club. That surprise me from you. but everyone is entitled to there opinion

132. Angelo Mora now a Dodger…got selected in the minor league phase.

     1. He was already gone Romus. Mora was a free agent and was signed to a minor league deal by Baltimore, Nov 28. The O’s didn’t put him on their AAA roster for some reason, making him Rule 5 eligible. So LAD took him from the Orioles.

133. I saw in MLBrumors that the lousy Mets team is looking for a 2B. Can a division rival be a perfect trade partner? I believe that Cesar is a solid MLB player but i don’t think he is a game changing player so i wouldn’t mind to play against him for 18 games yearly.

     Can the Phils and Mets make a Cesar for Matz or Cesar for Harvey (plus another prospect) deal? I’m also interest with Vientos and Becerra from the Mets.

     1. Harvey is probably done or going to have to re-invent his repetoire.
        Becerra has been left unprotected for two straight years…like Tocci was.
        Matz…..really with his elbow and shoulder issues?
        I’d go for prospects…RHP Marcos Molina and LHP Thomas Szapucki .
        Vientos for third base may be a good return however
        But Klentak has already stated he wants MLB starters.

        1. Totally agree…

        2. @romus – if some (including me) are OK for Cesar for Skaggs then I’m OK for Cesar for Matz. Imagine a Nola-Matz 1-2 combo. It is definitely a risky proposition, something that a Klentak will not do. But I’m a Hinkie so I will do it. Even if Matz did not pan out, losing Cesar will not hurt the Phils because of Kingery and plethora of INF prospects coming in the pipeline. But losing an opportunity to get a potential #2/#3 LH starter can be a head scratcher.

           1. KuKo…yes it is risky.
              Matz turns 27-years old next seasonand has made 35 starts..over two years.
              Matz was diagnosed with irritation in the ulnar nerve and had surgery in August…and is suppose to be ready for ST I assume.
              Just too many risks for me……for a player like Cesar.
              If they thru in Molina or Szapucki I may be more agreeable to it.

              1. again i’m not a Cesar hater, but it’s been float around here that Cesar’s value will go down next offseason considering 2Bs do not bring a lot in a trade return. so if I’m Klentak, i will not start the 2018 without finding Cesar a new home. Whether it’s for a high risk (but high reward) like Skaggs, Matz or a couple of lottery low minor prospects or 2015/2016/2017 Rule 4 Day 2/3 picks that fits their profile (controlling the strike zone).

                 GMs made bad decisions here and there that’s why it is a risk. It is not the bad decision making that cost their job, it is the lack of exit plan or Plan B in case the main decision did not pan out as expected is when the decision makers get the axe. The Phils has a solid Plan B in Kingery and 2018 FA class to mitigate the loss of Cesar. So it is a high risk that Klentak can afford to make.

                 1. Kurdt – as for Cesar, agree with all of this. He’s peak value territory right now – If he isn’t moved this winter, let’s hope he’s OPS’ing north of .800 come June-July.

        3. I am not sure I would want to do it for Szapucki, he not only has the prospect risk but also health risk as he is just getting over an injury. If we went the prospect route, I would probably prefer Justin Dunn.

           1. Szapucki already had his TJ in July so he is coming back,
              I can live with that since most of the time the pitchers make somewhat successful returns…and he has no shoulder issues so far..
              And yes Dunn…or even Peterson would better and more ideal….but I think the Mets have them as untouchables.

     2. I think the concern about not trading within the division is antiquated. If you think you are getting more value in return, why should you care? The answer is that GMs care more about being embarrassed than helping their team in those situations. That’s good reason to save one’s job but a bad reason to forego a good business decision for the organization. So sayeth Catch.

134. Interestingly, in his Rule 5 recap, Keith Law praises the Rangers for getting Tocci, who he says is a 4th outfielder right now.

     http://www.espn.com/blog/keith-law/insider/post?id=7939

     The reason a lot of us are annoyed is that Tocci hit .307/.362/.398 in AA in 2017 as a 21 year old.

     Speaking more generally, I believe that a strong hit tool tends to be underrated by people, and power tends to be overrated. 21 year olds who hit .300 in AA while playing a premium defensive position should be held onto if possible.

     As to what could they have traded him for? I don’t know, but they just traded Nick Burdi for $500K of international bonus pool money. If the third pick in the Rule 5 draft netted $500K in bonus pool money, what would the fourth pick have netted in a trade this summer? $400K?

     Again, I think it was a mistake by the front office. I hope he has an awful spring and the Rangers offer him back.

     1. As for Tocci, he’s a kid who probably remains in the system 3 years ago. But it’s so deep now. I’d say in more generally terms, I’m baffled that Klentak walks away from these meetings without making a trade considering the current construction of the 40-man. While still early in the off-season, I’d say it’s looking more like Klentak is playing for the July deadline again.

        1. My thought is that he has put out feelers and will wait for a reply. There is no hurry to do all this. Let’s see.

135. Rangers’ GM Jon Daniels on obtaining Carlos Tocci:
     “He is a center fielder and plus defender. He has really good baseball instincts, a good swing, good bat to ball skills, not a lot of power. He is a good baseball player.”
     His defensive skills are the primary attraction.
     The Rangers tried to sign him as an amateur free agent out of Venezuela before he signed with the Phillies six years ago.

136. We argued for what seemed like years on Tocci. He is exactly what Jon Daniels said. Now, the argument was the value of that description. I argued, to no avail, that he was like Ender Inciarte, and that we should have protected him. Time will tell. Who is the best defensive CF in the system with Tocci gone? What does everyone think of the Phils adding Jaime Garcia as the SP they are sure to add? LHP, decent #s, used to just kill us.

137. Also, I am pleased with the addition of Jose Flores to the Staff. Former Cubs Infield instructor, coaching 1B and IF/baserunning coach.

138. What do ppl expect out of Kingery? I’ve asked a ton of time but no one seems to want to answer.

     1. I think Kingery’s typical season would be .280/.330/.500, 15-20 dingers, BB/K – 10%/20%, better defense than Utley with regular dazzling web gems, baserunning equal to Utley (with more speed) and the immeasurables of leadership as he enters his prime (by 3rd yr in MLB).

        1. I’m also very eager to see the future keystone of JP/Jetpax. And not just their individual skill sets but the chemistry between them which I believe the FO salivates over. The marketing implications are also considerable.

           1. I think chemistry is vastly overrated in baseball. As a team I feel like you need it but as a double play combo, no so much. It’s not like getting a pass in basketball (or in Hockey) where you can be anywhere on the court, if JP or Kingery are getting feeds from the other, 9x outta 10 they will be stationary. It’s not like you need to know someone’s tendencies in order to turn a DP (I realize there are more instances but turning DPs is the most common one) I know this is a much smaller level but coaching our legion team, our SS and 2B HATED each other (2x they got into a physical fight after a game smh and we were a good team too, 35-16, nothing to argue about) but they were by far the best double play combo that I’ve coached (the SS is playing for FSU and was drafted by the Red, as a pitcher yet he didn’t throw one inning for us) lot of talent in the NJ/Pa area.

              1. Eric then you don’t remember the 93 team. Chemistry overcame the lack of talent. imo

     2. GG Defense, about .275 BA 15 to 20 HR 70 RBI ‘s 35 SB around .850 ops . A little high end on my part .

139. I am not really pleased with the addition of Flores or some of the other coaching hires. 5 have no big league coaching experience. There was definitely an attempt to get away from the past, with not hiring former Phillies. If they win, I don’t care, but it is a bit strange that there is such a lack of big league experience on the staff. Six of eight coaches are from outside the organization, with it being the first time since 1970 no former Phillies are on the staff.

     I won’t believe this all comes together and works, but let’s throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks.

140. I expect Kingery to be an All Star level 2B, a team leader, and a GG candidate defensively. What I refer to as Utley lite, as Utley was the best 2B in the history of the franchise. I see Kingery as similar in ceiling to Pedroia. Thus, my feelings that Cesar needs to be traded, although I respect Cesar, applaud him for elevating his game, but don’t see his ceiling as that of Kingery.

     1. Thank you for responding. I just prefer the known commodity (and someone who has only improved) to the unknown, it also bothers me that in AAA Kingery’s walk rate was below average to awful (according to fangraphs) and his K rate was between average and below average (again according to fangraphs), that’s not a good thing for a player who isn’t a power hitter. I believe he also had a high BABIP.

        Call me crazy but give me the guy who is preforming at the ML level over a guy who you hope preforms at the ML level.

        1. I mean if the speed can play, you are talking about a guy who could be a
           .300/.380/.430 10 HR 30Plus 2B 10Plus 3B 30SB
           That’s a really good 2B right there and it’s honestly not far off from what he already is giving you.

           1. Kingery going to hit more then 10 per yr in his prime. It’s not the speed Kingery could easily hit 30 to 40 doubles a yr plus 15 to 20 hrs. I mean he just tapped into his power . His .obp was fine in Reading his 1/2 yr in 3 A was ok. If he can keep adding bulk he should be fine.

              1. He has said himself not to expect the power you saw last year bc it isn’t his game which you could see when once he hit LHV, in just about the same amount of ABs he hit 10 less HRs, that’s not his game. If you are expecting 20HRs out of him you are prob going to be disappointed. But from some of your numbers, there really isn’t much difference from Hernandez besides the SB total which Hernandez has the speed to match that if he can work on his base stealing, Hernandez is also more than likely to produce a higher OBP as well. I dunno, it just sounds like you can get the same out of Hernandez and you know he can do it bc he’s shown at the ML level, where Kingery hasn’t. Good problem to have.

                 1. While I think you undersell Kingery a little, you correctly point out how good of a player CeHe is. Why people do not fully appreciate Cesar is a bit of a puzzle to me. A couple of years ago he was doing some boneheaded stuff on the bases, but he’s cut way back on this. Cesar is a very good, young, cost-controlled player and nobody should be eager for the team to trade him just to move on. That said, they also need to be careful not to so overvalue him that they end up actually getting less for him in the long run. I believe an opportunity to move him will arise during the year, so we will see.

                 2. When the season ended the Phillies the said to Kingery go home and workout like you did last off-season. I mean there’s alot of HRs being hit at the major league level. Kingery also hit over 40 doubles in high A . Ceaser never hit 10 Hr anywhere in his career.

141. Kudos to Klentak for pick & flip to get $500k in international money.

     I believe we had $550k left after Abrahan Gutierrez signing. So, I assume we now have $1.05M. This means we can sign Juan Contreras for $1.25M (or a little less and use the remainder to sign a few more 16 year olds). Getting Juan Contreras would help make this offseason a win. I’m hoping FO had this in mind all along!

142. The trading deadline was brilliant. i don’t want to give CeHe away for nothing. I am a member of the dump Herrera club; I still do not want to give him away. I am curious why the two VZ kids are not signed yet?

143. Is FA the best place to acquire a lefty for the rotation? Garcia? Liriano? or someone else?

     or

     Is the trade market a better option? Duffy? Corbin? or someone else?

     I’ve always loved Liriano and his numbers in the NL are pretty decent and, although 34 next year, hasn’t lost a tick in his FB velo and his slider is still as dirty as ever. I want him behind Nola. I think he can be had on a two-year deal.

     I think there will be more interest in Garcia, so the Phils might have to go 3 years on him but I would be all for it.

     Nola–Liriano–Velasquez/Eick–Garcia–Pivetta/Leiter

     Thoughts?

144. I love Kingery . . . but the idea that he’ll be a better fielder than Utley seems optimistic. Utley has produced 17.8 WAR from his defense. There aren’t many second basemen who have produced more defensive value (e.g., Mazeroski, Frank White, Willie Randolph, Nellie Fox, Frankie Frisch). If Kingery produces 10 WAR from his defense in his career, that would be fantastic.

145. Cody Asche signed a minor league deal with KC.

146. I think you trade CeHe , Quinn, and maybe V,V for Duffy . KC really wants there payroll down .

     1. No offense, but that’s a horrible trade. Horrible. CeHe is worth more than Duffy alone because of his output and his being cost controlled. The Royals would just laugh and say yes in about 3 seconds and the Phillies would get screwed.

        1. There’s no demand for CeHe this yr. 2 teams were interested this yr next yr it gets much worse. He’s like not even in the top 10 in 2nd baseman. Duffy is no loggy he’s a 2 maybe 3 LH starter.

     2. Tim……no way KC does that trade…..Duffy in his last 100 starts is a 12WAR pitcher.
        And as a lefty has added value.
        Quinn and VV have not been either healthy or productive in their career to date.
        They have not proved to be reliable
        Cesar alone for Duffy….they would probably want more. at least more than Quinn and VV

        1. I think I more agree with Catch it’s too much for Duffy. I think Cehe for Duffy straight up is the max I would give. There is quite a bit of money and health risk in Duffy. Fine if you want to throw in a Lively or Leiter or just Quinn to make it work but not VV.

           I maintain Cehe is worth some teams AA or AAA pitcher who looks like he could be a 2-3 Pitcher. Padres Padres and maybe the Pirates…

           Those are the teams with some depth at Starter

           1. A LH starter in the rotation like Duffy with a fWAR for 2017 at 3.4…11th best in the AL….and facing the DH….is one of the most valuable commodities
              If thinking Cesar alone for Duffy is an overpayment…..then that falls right in line with Matt Klentak’s thinking….that he wants two MLB starters for him….and even the Angel’s with a poor farm system thought it was too much.
              Interesting….look at the return on second baseman in trades over the last few years.
              How many have returned LHP starters …mid rotation…with high WARS?

              1. Maybe you’re right and I’m wrong Romus but Cehe and VV is too much for Duffy IMO.

                 CeHe is an excellent ballplayer I love him but until we start to hear what is being offered for him we don’t have a fair assesment of what the market will bear for a player like him.

                 Teams are looking for some power from the position and you just don’t get that with Cehe so it is quite possible that is where the over valuing of him comes from.

                 1. DMAR….KC would take Cesar as the headliner….but IMO they want a reliable pitcher or two,MLB ready that have the potential to be rotation starters….
                    A 26-year old like ViVe, who is not effective…39 starts last two years with a 2.1bWAR is probably a pitcher they do not want to take a chance on…..then there is the circulation issue and the 5 years removed from TJ.
                    Guys like Pivetta, Kilome, and/or Eshelman may excite them a little…they are all healthy and have decent stuff to fit somewhere in a rotation.
                    That is just my opinion.

                 2. DMAR….and on Duffy……in the AL…as a lefty….other than Sale, Keuchel, Qiuntana, until traded, and maybe Drew Pomeranz……he probably ranks right behind them in his 2017 results.

              2. That’s how I was thinking LH pitcher with very good metrics Duffy .

           2. Guys, gotta agree with Romus here. If we were Royals phans we’d only trade Duffy for a very significant package. I’m a CeHe fan but his value is only as much as the market dictates, not what we think/hope it could be. He can be main piece but Duffy is worth more. Quinn and VV would be sell-low candidates and so I’d rather not include. Personally I’d add Eshelman and Cozens. I’m sure there’d be a debate about their value but that debate would prove that they risk/reward prospects that would be more valuable than Quinn and VV right now and thus help get the deal done. …I’m a fan of what Duffy could do in the NL. (Only concern is his 1-2 mph drop in velocity in ’17 from all prior years. If he is in fact healthy and data shows his velo is back then I’d love to get him!)

        2. I know I thought maybe Duffy salary would come into play. Now after today Altherr might come into play . Funny Catch thinks it’s to much you think it’s not enough. I do think they will get Duffy .

147. Yankees are talking to Pittsburgh about Gerrit Cole with Clint Frazier as a main return piece since their OF is abundant and the Pirates are about to lose Cutch.

     We can’t seem to find trade partners. Even the Yankees could use a 2b and they love VV. Why can’t Klentak pluck away a Chance Adams away from the Bombers? Just seems like the Phillies are nickel-and-diming while more aggressive clubs are staking their claim, not just for the immediate future. We’ve all these supposed resources NOW. But no, let’s put all our eggs in next year’s FA market and watch more aggressive and more attractive, on-the-rise clubs snatch the cream of that crop, too.

     The moves Klentak made this week were decent ones. However, the volume of them is way underwhelming. Yeah, they’ve “got work to do” on the starting rotation. Just waiting for everybody else to make their moves so we’ll wind up with a second rate arm. Again, Matt – you don’t bring a knife to a gun fight when you have the arsenal at your disposal.

     1. Agreed
        I’ve been posting for weeks that this organization continues to be run like a small market organization ( they never spent over the limit in International dollars when the rules allowed) and also very timidly. ( the drafts have focused on high floor vs high ceiling players)
        Matt just seems to be reluctant after the Giles trade to make a big move either in trade or free agency
        I’m deeply concerned we are going to hear if Machado and Harper don’t come here that they are going to wait for 2019 free agency because no one left is worth spending on while all the time the team, with its Comcast tv contract, continues to post a big profit.

        1. There have been exceptions in the last 5 years…Ortiz at $4M (2015)was one of the top 5 bonus offerings in MLB history for Latin 16-year olds.
           And then Encarnacion’s million…which looks as a failure right now.
           Tocci in ’11 was for approx $800K and for awhile that was the highest since the two Korean pitchers of 2002.
           They are changing a bit…..but look at the Yankees in 2012 and 2013 and 2014….went wild….but they also lost some of them in the Rule 5s the past two years but on the other hand they used one in particular, Jorge Mateo as one of the the key components in the Sonny Gray trade.
           But agree with yuo on yuor point….Matt Klentak seems to be hesitant on making impactful moves.

           1. As an example, if Gerrit Cole from pirates is available, we should be in on that. He’s the type of young TOR pitcher we need, have control for a few years and then have the money to resign

              1. IMO….I’d try to sign Yu?
                 He is four years older than Cole, but can still be effective for a 2/3 more years
                 But Cole is FA after the 2019 season…so another high money sign for 30-year old.
                 And who wants to deal with Scott Boras anyway!.

     2. Yankee took the gloves off for sure but they don’t need a 2B as they will put Gleybar there most likely. They need a 3B and a starter.

148. Anthony Gose was picked up in the Rule 5 draft by the Houston Astros… as a LHP.

149. One thing we have not talked about is who, if anyone, is on the hot seat in the Phillies’ organization.

     MacPhail is in for the long haul, Klentak has plenty of time to succeed or fail (I’d say 2-3 years minimum short of a massive screw up in the interim), and Kapler was just hired so he probably has 2 years (again, short of a mutiny), but Johnny Almaraz, I think will really be under the microscope because he has a very mixed draft record so far and he may have two first round picks in a row (including the 1.1) that do not pan out and he wasn’t hired by MacPhail and company so that leaves him more exposed too. I’m not saying he will get canned, but his job, in my view, is a lot less secure right now than the others unless his picks really start producing. Just something to keep one’s eye on.

     1. Already down on Haseley? or referring to MM and Randolph?

        1. I’m not down on Haseley – looks fine so far. I’m referring to MM and Randolph. Although I would say it would be hard to hang MM solely on him – from what I understand of the draft process on that pick it was completely a group decision.

150. At some point, Klentak needs to move on from certain players to give others a chance. I can still see a scenario where players are moved around to different positions to promote an everybody plays environment.
     The stronger players will keep their spot for the future.

     Look at the options:
     Hoskins: 1B/LF
     CeHe: 2B Only
     Freddy: All Over
     Crawford: 3B, SS, 2B
     Franco: 3B, 1B
     Knapp: 1B, C
     Alfaro: OF, C
     Altherr: All OF Spots
     Williams: All OF Spots
     Doobie: All OF Spots, 2B
     Florimon: 3B, SS, 2B

     With this in mind, one dimensional position players would be moved out & replaced. That makes CeHe, ToJo, & Rupp all candidates to be traded.

     One thing to consider is that Kingery has not established positional diversity having played only a few games at either 3B or SS. This could keep him in the minors until June.
     Klentak is playing the risk game with CeHe trade value. Is it highest now or will be at the trade deadline? His value is clearly low today using the Kinsler trade as an example.

     I see a scenario similar to what was done with Hoskins this year. CeHe’s trade value will still not be high enough at the deadline. Kingery will be called up after the trade deadline to play different positions. This will be driven by where the logjam exists in the IF & how Franco is performing.

     1. I wish we knew what the offers for Hernandez have been. On the one hand , you want to move him to make room for Kingery and improve the rotation , on the other hand, its possible the offers have been so pathetic that it would be GM malpractice to give away a 2-4 WAR cheap controllable player for essentially nothing

        1. Exactly – it’s a tight rope walk and not an easy decision.

        2. You saw what the Angels gave up for Kinsler. I assume their offer for Hernandez was equally pathetic.

151. With both contracts providing good value, would you consider keeping both Doobie & Yelich if you could do it? Would you give up any combination Quinn and Williams or Altherr to make the trade?

     https://www.metro.us/sports/philadelphia/mlb-rumors-phillies-interested-christian-yelich-aggressively-shopping-freddy

     I find a trade for Grenkie to be very interesting, but what are the chances he is able to pitch to age 37 or 38?

     1. Id love for us to sell high on Williams ( who I have some doubts about) in a package with surplus talent and salary relief ( maybe take back zeigler or prado) with the marlins for Yelich.
        wherever possible , we should be packaging quantity ( which we have in young talet) for quality

        1. Agreed. I would try to move Williams now.

     2. Greinke is a unique character it’s doubtful with a full no trade clause he comes to the east coast. The Yankee’s are working on it but he has shunned them before.

        The Yankee’s want to unload Elsbury on somebody and the D-Backs owe Zach another $135 million.

        MM wants to go to NY and the O’s have caught on that a few teams that came at them with offers may be angling to flip him to the Yankee’s which means the Phillies would be a trade partner the O’s would work with as they probably know the Phillies would be sincere about wanting to keep him.

        I’m pushing my chips in on Boston to land both Hosmer and JD it should be an interesting 20 days.

152. I think you are correct…Peter Angelos knows and trusts Andy MacPhail very well sinc ehe hired him a decade ago…..and he does not want Manny on the Yankees at any cost.
     MacPhail and Manny’s agent have worked well in the past, so there is a ray of light there.
     I hope before Monday Manny is a Phillie…signed with a LTC…fingers-crossed.

     1. Would be really awesome if so…
        Herrera
        Crawford
        Kingery
        Machado
        Hoskins
        Altherr
        Willams
        Alfaro

        … Yeah I’ll take that with some slight alterations as well. So swap out players needed to get th deal done

        Would be a nice day for Phillies phans if so.

        if the FO can get it done, they can focus heavily on SP going forward … At least that’s my “hope”

        1. Tac3…that is a nice lineup for sure…….I do think Kingery will lead-off and JPC will be in the two-hole…..but with those four at the top getting at least 16 PAs a game….runs can be plentiful.

           1. Romus… Will keep the faith for the others. Somehow someway Machado is coming to Philadelphia. Seems to logical

153. Romus, I would love to have Manny, but I am not giving up Sixto or Kingery. I don’t see any way that he agrees to a LTC. There is no reason for him to do so. A team this year can only guess how high his contract can go. Also, if he really wants to play SS, he can do that in FA, and that lessens his value to us. I want a big move, and I can’t wait until we get to what Boras calls “Playoffville”, but I want Sixto and Kingery here as a part of it.

     1. matt13….wasn’t it already announced earlier in the week at the meetings that Sixto and Kingery were off the table?
        And as for Manny signing a LTC….Middleton could make him an offer he cannot refuse……there is still some money in the club’s treasury to do that.

        1. Romus, I didn’t know if that was a real report or speculation. I hope it is real. On MM, it is hard to come up with a #. Let’s say Middleton wants to sign him. He offers $300 Million. Why doesn’t Machado wait to see if he gets $400M?

     2. If he would allow a window to open for negotiations … It could hear up quickly.
        I’d imagine the FO would come to the table “like a BOSS” and start at 300/10 years, with no problem moving to 375/10 … I think hitting 400/10
        They start to baulk. He has to know the Phillies have the war
        Chest, and will match all monetary deals, if not exceed. It’s a formality at this point. It really comes down to A) his ego B) his drama level C) team positioning … But let’s be honest , a lot can happen in 10 years, so
        Choose wisely

154. With such a surplus of arms in the minors, I am perplexed at why you would pay high on veteran relievers.

     I don’t mind short term contracts, but why not convert the fringe starters to bullpen hands & simply leverage the volume you have.

     I think a lineup with Yelich, Crawford, Hoskins, & Kingery could truly be transformative. Based on OBP & Value, would like to hold onto Doobie in that lineup. Would like to see the impact Stairs departure will have on Williams & Altherr.

     1. I’m happy the reliever contracts were 2 years.
        I can live with that
        helps the bullpen, keeps trade deadline value due to our ability to eat some of contract and does not tie us down when we have to start paying younger players

155. Soooo. My view is that they are going to surprise us with a late free agent signing and it might be a pitcher like Darvish. They are going to wait for the market to establish itself and then they may be aggressive with an overpay contract for fewer years – perhaps even a pillow contract (one year transition contract to a free agent – like Adrian Beltre a few years ago with Boston).

     1. You want a surprise. How about Darvish going to the Angels?

        I see him going back to the Rangers or the Yankees making a play.

        I also see Machado not signing an extension here unless they start winning & he sees a championship possibility.

156. From a couple sources, including Twitter, “Phillies and Padres are in serious talks over Freddy Galvis. A trade could be completed today”.

157. Freddy about to be sent to San Diego per mlbtraderumors…

     Minor league pitcher coming back ….

     1. From their top 30
        Prospect list, their top 7 are ranked in the top 100, so I’m
        guessing it will be #8 Eric Lauer LHP

        Bets are on

        1. Maybe we can fleece them LOLBut Lauer wouldn’t be a bad return for 1 year of Freddy.

        2. Thank you Freddy for your leadership, guts, & flashy play in the field. Good luck in San Diego.

           I hope he gets a longer term contract as starter.

     2. If, theoretically, you asked me to design a trade for Freddy it would look much like this. Major league polished shortstop for a good minor league arm because: (a) it addresses a need (starting pitching); and (b) it is value and future oriented. Time and again, this management group is taking the correct steps. Their game plan is excellent. The jury is still out on the talent evaluation, but we’re getting there.

158. With the Galvis trade, can thus yeats Phillies team be better than last years? I was hoping for much improvement. Crawford better be the real deal.

     1. Yeah, or what? Freddy Galvis is a second division starter. It’s not like they are trading Ozzie Smith or Cal Ripken. Let’s keep it real.

        1. Do not agree with you on Freddy, he is a gold glove defensive player, aged 28 who hit 16 hrs last year. We got Eflin for Rollins, who at that point was not as good as Freddy

           1. Freddy is a very good fielding shortstop, but his hitting, despite the power, is not that great due to a mediocre hit tool and poor plate discipline. Freddy has played to consecutive 1.3 WAR seasons. He’s just not the player Jimmy Rollins was, who was coming off a 4 WAR season when he was traded and otherwise was often a star player.

              No, Freddy is the definition of a second division regular and his trade value was adversely effected by the fact that he will become an unrestricted FA after this year (they wouldn’t give him a qualified offer – he’s not worth that money) and was blocking Crawford.

              They really did need to trade him.

        2. He’s a good piece on a team that has the offense to allow him to bat in the 8th hole. He IS NOT a player who should hit any where near the top of a line up but slot him in the 8th hole and you have yourself a nice player.

     2. Right, it’s going to be hard replacing Freddy’s .690 OPS. Everyone is down on Franco including me based on his performance in 2017 and he was better than Galvis in most offensive categories..

        Crawford doesn’t have to do much better in 2018 than he did in limited action in 2017 to match the performance level. I expect he will be much better..

159. I. Think they almost have to trade him, you can not take a starter in the last year of his contract and turn him into a utility player, The present front office values Crawford’s skills much higher than Galvis skills. I think the Padres will end up doing well in the trade, hope I am wrong, hope we get good medical info on the pitcher, just ask the Marlins and Red Sox