More Ben Lively info

Thanks to Jim for putting up the post when the deal went down. Here is some more analysis and info on Lively.

MLB.com has already moved Lively to the Phillies section of their coverage and ranked him #8 overall. Heres what they have to say on his stuff:

None of Lively’s pitches jump off the page, but he does have four of them that he can throw for strikes. His fastball can touch 93-94 mph, and his slider shows signs of being a potential above-average pitch, as well. Lively mixes in his curve and changeup well to keep hitters guessing. All of his stuff plays up because of his unusual delivery in which his arm stays hidden, making it tough for hitters to pick up the ball.

In their league top 20s this year, Lively was ranked 16th in the Cal League and then 20th in the Southern League. Given that there are 10 teams in the CAL and 10 teams in the SOU, it means it is moderately difficult to make the list, and that he made both is promising. Here are some highlights from those BA writeups

CAL: Lively’s delivery features deception—his arm angle drops slightly and he throws across his body—helping his fastball get inon hitters. He’ll pound all quadrants of the strike zone with command of a 91-92 mph fastball that bumps 94.

SOU: Lively ranges from 88-92 mph and sits at about 90, often working up and over the plate, but batters struggle to square him up because they don’t see the ball until the last instant. He throws what one manager deemed an “invisible” fastball. Lively’s low-80s curveball can be an out pitch for him, for he executed it with more depth in 2014, and his slider and changeup grade as major league average. When scouts factor in plus control, they come away convinced Lively can be at least a durable No. 4 starter.

Here are video clips: one, two, and three.

BP ranked him #7 in the Reds system, giving him a future #3 SP profile. They also had him 88-92, with a plus slider and average change and curve. They note the biggest question mark is about his delivery and mechanics, and whether he will be able to repeat them well enough to be a consistent starting pitcher.

Nevertheless, to receive a potential MLB starter who will be worth a win or two a year at worst, for a guy who was not in the long term plans, its a nice get by the Phillies.

So, which piece is next to go?

109 thoughts on “More Ben Lively info

  1. I’m surprised there isn’t more interest in Carlos Ruiz. I think the next to go will be Ryan Howard. The Phillies will eat $55M and get back a C level prospect.

  2. No, absolutely no way that Kelly Dugan is not a Top 20 prospect. For one thing, he has that all so rare hit tool. For another, if the Phils have 20 prospects better than Dugan, who I think is one of their top 10 prospects, then the organization is certainly in better shape than most claim.

    1. Think the Orioles made a big mistake not trading for Byrd to replace Cruz. Not sure what the Reds are doing but a nice return.

  3. I think it’s Howard. I could see him in Balt. They lost Markakis and Cruz. They could use a bat. Phils will prob eat 50 of the 60 mill owed and get a 26 yr old A ball pitcher back. That’s just reality.

      1. You’d be looking at a return along the lines of what they gave up for Thome, ie Gabriel Lino, ie a highly flawed prospect in A ball.

    1. for next year? He has only made 13 starts above A ball. I give him the entire year in the minors.

      1. I think Wendle needs to be higher than Lively. Wendle look like best pitching prospect of the 4 recently traded for.

  4. The reading rotation looks much better after adding three arms. I think Nola will start at LHV but I’m not sure about Biddle. Three years at AA? But they want him to have success and that’s more likely at AA. Sev start at LHV?

    1. I don’t see Nola in Philly next year until September because the Phillies have no reason to hurry him to the majors and start his clock. His ETA should be competing for a starter’s spot in 2016.

      1. He’s no the kind of top prospect where you’re worried about starting his clock. He probably won’t start the season in Philly (and therefore will avoid Super 2 status) but I think if all goes well he’ll be there by June.

      2. To clarify, he is a good prospect for our system, but the guys who you hold back on the minors in order to avoid early free agency are guys like Bryce Harper, 19-year-old stars who are likely to command 9-figure contracts when they hit free agency at age 25.

        1. My reasoning for Nola isn’t because he’s a can’t miss prospect but rather because there’s no benefit for bringing him up in 2015. IF the team thought they were going to compete in 2016 then getting his feet wet would make sense.

          As it stands now, he has all of 2016 to get adjusted to the big leagues.

          1. I don’t think there is much to be learned in minors for him. Let him adjust to ML hitters sooner. He appears to have high pitching IQ and has full arsenal of pitches. It wouldn’t surprise me if he had better sense of how to pitch than pitching coaches in minors.

            1. I think Nola needs at least a year in the minors.

              He may look good now going up against AA competition but he needs to learn stuff regarding preparation, real pitching, how teams will scout him, etc.

              His stuff looks nice because it is one of those nice, shiny things. Give him a full year to see how teams adjust to him, how he adjusts to seeing guys a second and third times for full games, how his body holds up under a full year of professional baseball, etc.

              For me, he is at least a year away, maybe two. His upside is not ace and he grades out to a #3 or maybe #2 starter,

            2. I don’t think Nola needs any more time in the minors, but it doesn’t hurt to continue to build him up to his potential, and then start his clock.

  5. I think the return for byrd was okay, in fact pretty good. Now if they can somehow move pap, to let us see how well our bullpen is without him. I wonder if pap doesn’t close I think 55 games he doesn’t get options. or am I wrong. Is there anyway we don’t let him get in as many games without mlb getting involved. I read a quote by red sox owner saying he would blow up the luxury tax to get Lester back. why cant we have that type of owner, just a thought

    1. Papelbon needs to finish 48 games for the 5th yr to vest. If he stays healthy, he’ll almost certainly get that. If the Phils stop using him in obvious closing situations and he pitched like he did last yr, the players association will almost certainly step in. This happened a few years back w/ KRod and thd Mets.

      1. A lineup without Byrd and Rollins, an older Utley and Ruiz, and many question marks may not give pap enough save situations to vest his option. If he is going to be in the pen they might as well use him though. It would be smart to let him eat some innings and give other pitchers some relief and not worry about his option.

        If Pap isn’t traded and has a decent year or even first half I could see him being moved if a chunk of his contract is eaten. Relievers, closers to be more specific, are getting very expensive. I could see a team taking a chance on him considering he probably would’t cost much compared to alternatives.

        1. 48 games really isn’t that many to finish on a bad team,though. Even the bad teams usually have at least 35 save opportunities.After that you’ll prob. have another 5-7 Paps comes into a tie game in the 9th and either blows or team wins in B9. Then you’ll have another 3-5 or so where he comes into a 4/5 run game or something because he was already warming up. The key will be how many times will the Phils put him in to just get work in. I would say that number will prob. be in the 6-10 range depending on how much they’re struggling. With all that, even the low end says he gets to 48. That’s assuming he stays healthy, of course.

  6. We tried spending up to the luxury tax the last few years. The key is spending money wisely. It is not about how much but how well.

    Look at the Cardinals payroll for money well spent. Always in the mix at $110 million.

    The Yankees are in a similar place with a massive payroll with little to show. What happened when they tried to replace Jeter? Who was there to buy?

    The game has changed, it is no longer about how much but how well.

  7. Dave you missed the point, I meant he would do whatever it takes to win. that’s my point, Can you honestly say this ownership would?? T o just spend money isn’t the point, its to do what it takes to win, if that is spending on fa or draft or Cuban market you do it, if its better scouts who cost more you do it. a gm who knows what he is doing . would help. I don’t feel that this team gets it, and until they do we will be bad.

    1. But it was just talk, when it came down to it, the Red Sox were outspent by the Cubs. And they haven’t gotten Hamels either yet. It’s easy to talk….

      1. Omg two tiles in last 14 years. made dumb mistakes and unloaded all those contracts, have spent on farm system and fa and have better talent in place, better farm what don’t you get murray, I am so confused. Look at there approach to the draft verus our. your the just talk right now.

        1. I guess the philosophical difference in organizations is one WANTS to win and the other NEEDS to win. So the costs at that objective becomes very measurable.

        2. As I see it, the difference between the phillies and the Red Sox is that big papi has continued to hit and Howard has not. That’s just random luck. What would the phillies have been the last couple of years if Howard was still the hitter of old? A contender that’s what. As for the sox’s drafting, exactly which one of their great prospects has become a star player?

          1. Looking at their drafts, you really cannot count recent ones, perhaps anything later then 2011.
            But in 2011 they drafted,-Barnes, Owens, Swihart, Betts and Bradley.
            In 2010 -Ranaudo, Workman, Sean Coyle and Cecchini
            In 2009 and 2008 were basically wash-outs.
            And in 2007 there was Middlebrooks and Anthony Rizzo.
            To ask which ones have become stars. That needs to play out for the 2011 and 2010 guys. But looks like a lot better for their future then the Phillies at this point when you compare the Phillies’ 2010 and 2011 drafts. Though Giles, Asche , Biddle and Quinn could become notable players.

            As for Howard vs Ortiz…all I say is 28%k rate vs 18% k rate…there in lies the difference no matter that Howard had a limited number of truly great years.

          2. It’s not about drafting “stars”. It’s about drafting regulars and not busts.

            The Red Sox have brought in key free agents by spending whatever they have to, have drafted very well, and have made the right trades at the right time. The Phillies on the other hand have traded away most of their best prospects, have made awful signings that either overpaid a guy or signed a cheap nothing, and have kept the majority of their prospects from developing, with a handful of exceptions. They traded away D’Arnaud, Drabek, Cosart, Singleton, Gose (who got the Blue Jays a much more polished prospect in return on his own, Bonilla, and other guys while making Dom Brown untouchable based on nothing.

            And Big Papi is a steroid using cheater.

  8. Think that Hamels will be the next piece to move once the remaining FA pitchers shake out (Schertzer (sp?). I can also see Papelbon being moved but probably not until Spring training.

  9. The Phillies should have strong farm in 2017, after consecutive tanks in ’15 and ’16. The major league roster will still be weak going into the ’17 season, but we should then be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

    1. okay derek let me play devils advocate. how do you come up with that logic?? We have no outfield prospects, one catching prospect, maybe two infield prospects who are legit. not one pitching prospect is a number one, a lot of threes. and fours, and we haven’t drafted well. Don’t spend in latin market and let Cuban players go, and we will be better. I don’t get it. pls explain

      1. I don’t see it as at all unreasonable to think we will have a strong farm in 2017. If we draft well and spend our full international allocation wisely, we should have a strong farm at the conclusion of the 2016 draft/international signing period. The big league Phillies are going to stink in 2015. We’ll get a top 5, likely a top 3, draft slot in 2016. We should be improving at the MLB level in 2016, but should easily be in one of the top 10 draft slots, probably 6-8. That draft will further strengthen the farm. We’ve also added a second very good evaluator of Latin American talent. That plus healthy bonus allocations should allow the Phillies to increase their take of potential star-level LA talent. I don’t think Derek is being at all overly optimistic in seeing us having one of the top farms in 2017. I think we’ll be top 10, likely slightly better than that.

        1. Allentown. you said if we spend all in latin market which we haven’t, draft well which we haven’t, I would love to see them be top ten or better. but with there track record and amaro. Montgomery in charge, I just don’t see it, hope I am wrong.

      2. Rocco: I think my comment may sound more complimentary to the Phillies than I intend.

        With five consecutive years of failure at the major-league level by 2017, the team will have several years of high draft picks. That’s enough time for even an Ed Wade to build a good farm.

        When I say that we will be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel by ’17, that means the Phillies major-league team will still be in the tunnel. By 2017, I think that the Phils will have a half dozen young, solid players on the 25-man roster, including maybe one budding star. That means the team will be another six players short of being a solid contender again.

        So, seeing the light at the end of the tunnel by 2017 means that in two or three years, i.e., by 2019 or 2020, the Phils will contend again.

        Eight or nine years between drinks at the trough. That’s pathetic.

      3. How can you say they don’t spend in the LA market?
        2013 – Encarnacion $1M, Martelo $230K
        2014 – Arquimedes Gamboa $900K, Daniel Brito $650K, Jonathan Arauz $600K, Lenin Rodriguez $300K
        Plus other signings over the past 3 years like Ismael Cabrera, Yan De La Cruz, Elniery Garcia, Carlos Indriago, Franklyn Kilome, Adonis Medina, Ricardo Pinto, Ranger Saurez, Jose Taveras, Deivi Grullon, Gregori Rivero, Grenny Cumana, Jesus Alastre, Carlos Duran, Christian Palacios, David Pereira.
        You may not like how they spend their money, but they are spending in LA.

        1. Jim maybe I am wrong but who was in bottom five in spending from 2000 to 2009, and who out of the large markets, last year had money left over?? who didn’t sign one top twenty prospect last year. Who never goes over cap to sign top talent in latin market?? I never thought you were like a lot of people on here, that they do nothing wrong,

          1. Reading comprehension is not a trait you employ. He offered a counter argument to your inane ramblings. He never said they didn’t do anything wrong. He pointed out that the Phillies have spent in the Latin market. They may not have gotten the guys that you wanted, if you even knew any of those players. But they have spent there. That’s an undeniable fact.

            1. “Reading comprehension” “your inane ramblings”. Stop trying to talk like you’re more intelligent than you are and learn how to be respectful.

              What he just said before you is an undeniable fact.

          2. Rocco you are one of my favorite posters here but I don’t get the fascination you have with spending money in the LA market. I don’t know the answer but maybe I would side with you if you can dig up research that shows me that teams who are the top investors in this market have significantly more championships or playoff appearances or winning percentage than those that don’t in the last 10 years.

            1. The Red Sox, to name one.

              The teams that have the most complete approach to player development are the ones that are often competing for titles. It’s not always the Yankees. Plenty of legitimately small market teams pony up the cash for the right guy, unlike the Phillies, who are a big market team.

          3. rocco…..the Phillies did get Chooch with a large signing bonus (tic)…I think almost $10K.
            Dr Evil would have been proud.
            🙂

          4. “Don’t spend in latin market” was your statement. I gave examples of their recent spending in the LA market. I don’t see how that puts me in the “they do nothing wrong” camp. However, I don’t see myself in the “they do nothing right” camp, either. I like to think I’m in the middle, judging each move on the evidence I have, and adjusting my judgement as the situation requires. In the above matter, I offered facts to counter an unsupportable portion of your statement. Your response offered nothing to change that.

            1. BTW Jimmy….on a different note…..anything on the mystery whereabouts of one Joely Rodriguez (10/20/14-Antonio Bastardo trade).
              Can I assume the Phillies can carry him off-the 40 indefinitely, well at least until later in the season?

            2. Frankly, the Phillies have done pretty well in their development of LA players, even if there haven’t been any superstars. For all the million dollar bonuses that other teams hand out so freely, how many of those guys have panned out? Not many. (That said, I will be sorely disappointed if the Phillies don’t make a run at Yoan Moncada, even if he is historically expensive.)

        2. Actually the LA money spending drought was between 2001 and 2010.
          The Korean pitchers were in March 2001, Seung Lee and Il Kim. The two received a total of $2 million in signing bonuses And failed to develop. Then there was the long barren time.

          1. I can’t reply directly to your Rodriguez post, so I’ll answer here. I read recently that he has to pass a physical first. Since he’s playing in the DWL, I guess that’s the hold up.

  10. Solid move. As much as I hate to admit it, I think the Rube is more a product of what his boss wants than what he wants. He’s a loyal soldier and takes all of the hits which is commendable. I don’t think there is any question that these reason moves have Gillick’s fingerprints all over them which tells me Monty is the real evil here. He represents the line of thinking that says we need star power to sell tickets whether we win or not. That has always been and always will be a flawed way to run a team.

    So anyway, as a good friend always used to say about Gillick: “Thank God we have God as our GM”

    1. Monty is absolutely the core problem. Fortunately I think Phillies have recognized it and Middleton can’t become main power broker for phillies soon enough.

  11. I always like the idea of singing a mid-level free agent that you know people will want (like Byrd) and selling him or draft picks at the deadline. The Phils can field an awful team yet still come up with a player of that ilk a few million to bolster their minor leagues over the next few years.

  12. Loving the Lively deal. Even if he tops out as a 5 it would have been well worth it. Byrd did his part for the Phils, unfortunately the roster around him sucked.

    Who’s next? I’m not sure anyone is. Papelbon and Ruiz are unlikely to go this off-season IMO. I guess Hamels can still be moved but Scherzer and in particular, Shields, need to sign before chatter picks up again. Still, I don’t see the Phillies getting the package they need to move him this year. Both the Dodgers and Red Sox are likely to be interested at the deadline and that contract is looking better and better with each FA SP signing. No rush there. Howard? Meh. The Rays make sense but I think it’s most likely that he’ll be wearing a Phillies uniform at least to start the season. The guy I really want them to trade is Revere. I still think he’d be a fit in San Diego. What I’d like to happen and what I think will happen are very different answers, and ultimately I think that there may not be another trade this off-season. Hopefully I’m wrong

  13. I like the Lively acquisition but I am a little greedy and was hoping for a little more in return. What would have been the cherry on the top for me would have been maybe Reds giving us $250K from their International pool.

    Now that Rube has acquired a slew of young starting pitchers, I think any trade for Hamels will be heavy on position players. Not a huge fan of the proposed Padre’s trade with Will Myers. I’m still hoping for a Red Sox deal involving C Blake Swihart.

    1. joe…have to give Ruben and Scott credit, they stuck to their guns and took quality over quantity. They could have easily had two other Reds prospects in the 20 range, pitcher and position guy. Lively can and will probably be a solid rotation guy.
      Lively, Eflin and Windle now ease concerns on recoveries from Watson, Pettibone and Morgan’s health issues.

  14. I like the deal and Lively its right in to Top 5-7. Pap seems to garner zero interest so I think Cole goes before ST

    1. I like San Diego as a partner for Cole. And to think that they weren’t even a consideration a month ago. Still, give me two of Myers, Wisler and Renfroe, plus a guy like Alex Dickerson, and we have a deal. I’d endorse Revere joining Cole in that deal as well

  15. My view might be outdated, but I think you should always load up on pitching whenever you can. Paul Owens always used to say that, for every 10 good arms, only 1 or 2 will make it to the majors…if you are lucky. I like the trade and I like wat I am reading about Lively.

    1. That’s probably referring to younger pitchers than what we’ve gotten in trades recently. I would expect half of them to make it at this point to being starters, and a couple extra to make it as relievers.

  16. I have an (overly?) simplistic way of analyzing minor league pitching prospects.
    1. I first look at k rate. IMO, a pitcher has to be able to make batters swing and miss. And if you can’t do it in the minors, you will never be able to do it in the show. On that metric, I like Lively
    2. I then look at walk rate. I believe if you are wild as a 22/23 year old, then you will never fix it. I think you can improve on the margin, but if you are wild then you will never fix it. That is why I am so down on Biddle. On this metric, Lively is a mixed bag. A ball stats were great, but the jump in walks in AA are concerning. Hopefully it was arm fatigue at end of season. But it needs to be watched.
    3. I then look at scouting reports. On these, he seems to have ok stuff, but not elite stuff. Seems to be a pitcher, rather than a great arm which is fine. Pitchability can help you have a long, productive career.

    All in, Lively seems to be a #4 with downside to be a #5. He seems to have a high probability of achieving these levels. Which makes him a very good return for Byrd.

    1. On your above number 2.
      That would be the case in most instances for right handed pitchers.
      There can be a difference for lefties. Seems they can around on control a little later in their development. BP has done some old studies on that , I need to see if I can dig them up. Also tall pitchers have issues with repeating mechs and sometimes take a little longer also.

      1. For your number 2 there is an obvious reason for walk rate raising . . As you move up in the minor league systems the hitters are better and much more patient . . Not going to swing at some of the pitches that you see at the lower levels.

  17. agree w steve..Revere should go next ..how about cubs with 6mil for castillo and corey black (another AA RHP) , earlier north side rumors linked to Revere…most likey to go paps, how about paps to detroit for A baller like Jiminez..on side topic, is Ruf the long term answer after Howard (regardless when Howard moves on)?

    1. No, unless Ruf shows something in the majors this year that he has not so far, he would rate in the bottom half for first base offensive production in MLB.

      They need to find a;

      1st basemen, 2nd, SS, 3rd, RF, LF, CF, and C for 2016 – 2020. And if they trade Cole, a starting pitching staff as well. Other than relievers, they need a new team, most of which is not on their 40 man roster now.

      Hopefully some of these pitchers they just acquired including Lively will develop into the rotation 2016 – 2020, along with Crawford, Nola, Franco, and Quinn.

      They still need an ace starting pitching prospect, a power hitting outfielder, and 1st base power prospects, also a strong 2nd base prospect, and hope that Grullon develops as a catching prospect to replace Ruiz

      1. Don’t forget that this is a large market team, they can spend big in free agency and accelerate the rebuild if need be.

        Once the contracts are off the books (Lee, Howard, Papelbon, etc) they’ll have room to add players who may hit free agency such as Chris Sale, Stephen Strasburg, etc.

      2. Saying, “they need to find every position player and an entire staff” might be a bit strong, especially after listing the players that we can hopefully count on for 2016-2020. With Crawford, Franco, Quinn, Nola (#3), and 2 out of (Eflin, Biddle, Imhoff, Lively, Windle – which seems realistic for #4-#5 starters), I would say that SS, 3B, CF, and #3-#5 starters are not needs anymore. Hopefully, we can say that Catcher (Grullon) and RF (Brown – 50/50 at best) could possibly be filled in house at this point also.

      3. They have Crawford for ss , Asche and Franco for 3rd Dugan, Cozens, Tocci,, Sanberg, Perkins, Hiciano, another half dozen I missed for the of. How about Zach Greene for 1st and tromp for 2nd. We have a lot more pitching but your right about the ace. You never know Mite have him already.I don’t belive they should trade Hamels unless you can replace him which we can’t. We can’t replace Revere either he had 49 steals and and hit 300 .

        1. Ya I mentioned Crawford. Not real excited from what I have seen from Asche and Franco at third at the MLB level, but I am hoping to see more from Franco this year.

          Sorry but I just don’t see any solid MLB OF from that group. Dugan looked awful at Reading last year, I know people said he is changing his swing….but there is a reason for that. This year will tell for sure on him. Out of that group Cozens may turn into a MLB power bat in the outfield, but he is a big if. Tocci does not look like he will ever have power. Sanberg still needs to prove a lot, same with Hiciano. Perkins is a step up from the long time Pigs outfielder…what his name 😉

          Again just don’t see any realistic MLB OF prospects other than Quinn. With Quinn you hope he has some power and an arm over Revere.

          Zach Greene and tromp are still a ways from being regarded as MLB prospects. This year will tell us a lot about all of the above.

      4. I don’t see 2B as that big a deal. Yes, we were used to and spoiled by Chase Utley. Just reconcile yourself to not having another Utley at 2B, just as we won a WC without another Mike Schmidt at 3B. These are the sorts of players a team gets once in your lifetime at a position — well really they get them once in your lifetime, if your lucky.

        We’ve got Valentin. We’ve got Cesar Hernandez. We’ve possibly got a Pullin who can learn to be good enough defensively at 2B. Beyond that, almost all of our most recent big $ Latin American signees are SS. We’ve got Crawford at SS. One of those SS (or Crawford if one of the LA guys is a stellar defensive SS) can play 2B. It’s just not a hole that I’m all that worried about.

  18. Ruf is a temp answer at first base and his production vis-a-vis Howard is similar. When you factor in the cost savings Ruf is an easy choice.

    The biggest needs are C, corner OF, 2B, and top end starting pitching.

    1. Howard is a sunk cost. If no one takes any of his salary, the Phillies are paying for both Ruf and Howard, so cost should not be a factor at all.

  19. Don’t forget Knapp . . he hit well in Lakewood .290/.354/.438 This will be a interesting year for him bc he should be catching full time now. If he is an average defender with the potential offensive player he could be, he could be a solid regular.

  20. i guess i am in the minority on Revere…no pitcher is afraid to pitch to him and his arm is what it is, but he may have good trade value….the reasons to keep revere for me would be because the team glass is half full and quinn is not yet on door step yet….of course glass half full would also see 2 top pitchers, a solid bullpen with hope of offense reducing k’s and stranding runners

    1. Unless a team gives you a home run type deal for Revere you keep him. He may not walk a lot but he is a contact hitter so you have to adjust your goggles accordingly. He is acceptable in CF and steals a lot of bases.

      Revere is also under team control and arbitration making him even more attractive.

      I find Revere much like the fans in general. Last year they whined until it was mentioned that he was in the hunt for the batting title, then everyone loved him. Once that was over the haters reemerged.

      If he was a free agent he would be getting paid a lot more because despite his deficiencies he is a more than adequate leadoff hitter and in a league starving for hitting that counts for a lot.

  21. I did miss a few I was my bothers watch in football . To me a prospect has to get up to A+ or AA which some of the phillies prospects are at now . Lakewood is such a hard place to hit I like to see what Cozens, hiciano, Greene, Pullin , can do at high A . Plus Cozens is only 20 , Greene 20 , etc . The have a lot more prospects coming up from the lower levels then 5 yrs ago. It’s going to be fun this yr watching Clearwater and Reading . Plus we have Dugan , Perkins, etc in in AAA. DUGAN hit 20 hrs 2 yrs ago , he walk more last yr hit for a higher avg in a higher level. The only thing keeping him from the majors is injuries.Franco will be in Philly next yr. Of course we want to see more from Cozens etc there only 20 have a way to go. Plus the money they have spent on Latin America should start showing next yr Pujols, Grullon, Encarnacion, Kilmore, etc . You can’t buy an entire team. Yes I would love the phillies sign a big named Cuban defector. they are sitting on there hands in there pockets. They do act like a small market team in a big market . Let us not forget most of our bullpen came from our minor leagues. We will see what the look like at the end of this yr. RAJ CONTACTS ENDS THIS YR SO THIS MAYBE A BIG FOR HIM.

    1. Tim cant say the truth. you got two thumbs down. some people just think the Phillies can’t do wrong.

        1. Players take time to grow, but Greene has shown nothing, apart from a propensity to arrive out of shape. Quinn has shown more in-game power than Greene. Greene is a total bust. There just was nothing at all there. He isn’t even a Dave Kingman type with very low batting average , but HR power. He is low BA with no game power

          1. Like I said, I doubt he gets right. It’s just ridiculous to completely write him off without giving him at least one last year and that he’s not 25 or something.

          2. Agreed. He is a complete non-prospect at this point. But for his draft status, he would have been released either last year or the year before. He had one tool, plate discipline, but nothing else, including the one thing he needed most, power.

        2. Kyle Crick was drafted 10 picks after Greene and he was drafted out of HS too. Unlike Greene, Crick has already made it to AA and is a top 100 prospect.

          I don’t think there is really any need to defend Greene. He has showed up out of shape and doesn’t put up any numbers to validate any kind of projection.

          1. Larry Greene will probably will be released after the June draft and the signing begins. Normally that’s when the big attrition comes during the season.
            Unless of course he comes out like gang-busters at the plate beginning in April thru June.

    1. No chance, just more exciting because of the potential but in no way better.

      As fans we like shiny new things and Reading has a lot of shiny new things so there is more excitement there.

    2. Not better in an absolute, measured today sense, but if Hamels is traded, the Reading rotation will have more potential and WAR going forward than the Phillies rotation. Hamels alone matches the Reading staff in talent, however. There is no ace at Reading. As of now there is nobody who projects as a #2 in a good MLB rotation. There are a lot of guys who look like they can be #3-#5 starters. That’s not a bad thing, but it’s important to have a solid #1 and #2 and they are very hrd to get.

      1. That’s pretty much it if we trade Hamels the Phillies might have too spend big money next yr on a #1 pitcher.any of these pitcher’s could develop into a# 1 who knows.

  22. Ok Green and that’s what I’m saying a lot of the phillies prospects are moving up to high A . There also Drew Anderson , Will Morris,Julio Reyes, Cody Forsythe. Plus Whitehead last yr was the first Cozens and some others have seen 500 at bats. One thing that stuck out with me Dugans strike walk ratio it also never changes between A+ and AA . The second time around Reading his avg went up 30 pets . His doubles went up but hr went down . Which tells he hit for avg and power. He no Werth but he be a chip for the furture.

    1. Cody Forsythe looked good when he was called up to Clearwater. I think he went 10-11 appearances before issuing his first walk. Lotta Ks, too.About 12 per 9 IP.

      1. Jim – any reports on his stuff? His K/9 rate jumped significantly after his promotion to Clearwater. Sad, this will be my 2nd spring training season living outside the Tampa area. Already scheming to make my way back though. In the interim, I’m jealous that you have the Gulf Coast Phillies, Clearwater Threshers, Phillies Spring Training, extended spring training facilities, and the Gulf beaches all at your disposal. Jealous indeed

        http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?sid=milb&player_id=643309#/career/R/pitching/2014/ALL

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