June 3 Discussion post

Here is where you post your ramblings about last night’s games and whatever else you get off topic on

Lehigh Valley wins 11-6.

Reading loses 15-5.

Clearwater loses 6-0.

Lakewood wins 5-3.

Check below for a quick note on Phillippe Aumont…

I hate to have to continue driving this point home, but really, everyone relax with Aumont, and to a larger extent, all of the guys who were given aggressive assignments based on their age. Aumont is 21, he’s young for AA, and prior to this season he’d thrown a grand total of 103 innings. The Phillies are overhauling his mechanics, and he’s also pitching as a starter, for a full season, for the first time in his career. He could suck to high heaven all season, but if he begins to repeat his mechanics, he gets used to pitching every 5th day, and he slowly builds up his velocity, then his season will be a success no matter how high his ERA is. Guys who are older, and more experienced, who struggle in a league they should be dominating are the guys to worry about, not guys who are young, very raw, and learning how to pitch all over again. I understand the desire from a few people to harp on the Cliff Lee trade over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. But just save it. Everyone knows how you feel. Evaluating this trade now, or even in 3 years, might be fruitless. Aumont is 21, Gillies is 21. Both guys would be age appropriate at A+ ball. Both guys will be age appropriate next year if they are repeating AA. Give them time. Let them get adjusted to new coaching, in a new system, with new methods. Its really kind of dumb to give up on a prospect after 2 months when he still has plenty of time to get things together.

/end rant.

45 thoughts on “June 3 Discussion post

  1. Amen. Thank you for saying, in a more eloquent way, what I have been trying to say for the last few weeks.

  2. Did anyone notice that the author of the “hit” that spoiled the Armando Gallaraga perfect game, thanks to an awful call by the first base umpire, was by none other than Jason Donald, our former farmhand, now playing for the Indians, courtesy of the first Cliff Lee trade.

  3. Point taken about Aumont. Still worth mentioning that the Reading pitching staff gave up six homers in the game.

    Here’s a question for the stat guys out there (and I don’t know the answer) – when’s the last time a Phillies minor league squad hit six homers in a game?

    Singleton without a hit…I can’t remember the last time that happened – of course he walked twice!

  4. So, John from the Philly Northeast, et al, were right , Jason Donald is now a household name.

  5. I got a chance to see Lakewood play last night. First off Colvin’s night was much better than it reads. The kid throws gas. His fastball looked like a blur coming out of his hand. He only gave up 3 hits all night until the 6th where he gave a lead off double and walked back to back batters. He had an awesome double play with a runner on 2nd, taking a grounder up the middle, and turned to freeze the runner trying for third. The runner was caught in a run down. Buschini tagged him than ran between 1st and second to tag the second runner trying to take second.
    Hewitt still doesn’t seem to know how to play baseball. With 2 outs and a runner on 2nd, Hewitt hit a line drive deep to left but tried to go for 3rd on the play. As he was coming to 2nd the ball was already coming in but he decided to run through the stop sign getting himself caught between 2nd and 3rd, ending the inning.
    Singleton is everything as advertised. He looks like a linebacker out there. Huge upper body. Lead off the game with 2 walks. For some reason they thought it would be good for him to try and steal twice and was out by a mile both times. He’s athletic but not the fastest guy out there. He almost had a homer in the the 5th but the centerfielder had to run into the wall to make the out.
    BTW got a chance to meet Cosart before the game and get his autograph. He seems like a great guy.

  6. Thanks for the update, Mark. Glad to hear such a rave review of Colvin. Hooray for Colvin and Cosart! If only they were at AA…then we could trade them for Cliff Lee and have more Cliff Lee trade arguments.

  7. you are so right. Sometimes we expect way to much out of these young players. Pitchers will have bad outings, it’s the nature of the position.

    Hitter will have problems as well. Small injuries we have no idea about can bother a player as well. The organization has lots of great talent and good kids lets let them develop.

    Some will make it most won’t

  8. Watched Hyatt pitch last night in Clearwater. He throws his fastball straight with no movement at the knees just about everytime. Great control as he pounds the low strike zone but he rarely changes eye level and the Palm Beach batters started to tee off on his low heat. Good change up with a slider in progress. Might make a better reliever than starter with the stuff he has.

    At third Overbeck had two difficult plays in the two games I have seen. One, a good play on a bunt down the third base line which he barehanded and threw in one motion to get the runner at first and the other on a hard hit bouncer down the line which he tried to back hand but the ball deflected off his glove down the line for a double.

    From straight away center Gose threw a strike to nail a runner at third but was frustrated getting thrown out again trying to steal. Derrick Mitchell is a like a gazelle in right with a good arm. In the two games I have seen he has made seven put outs with several great catches against the wall but he had only warning track power with several fly ball outs with the bat. Still like Harold Garcia as a future major league second baseman who showed his speed on the bases and pop with the bat in both games. J.C. Ramirez looked okay in his start but not over powering or dominating and he got a couple of swinging strikes on his big looping breaking ball.

  9. I don’t agree that Aumont should stay @ AA. Based on the fact that he is 21 , has only pitched 103 innings and is Raw are all the reasons he should be demoted . If he wasn’t in the Lee trade he would not be @ AA. Also you say based on his age he should be in high A, so why is he getting special treatment ? Certainly not on his performance

    i

  10. Well said, PP. Gillies has been injured also. One thing to keep in mind with Aumont is that we do not really know the extent of his hip problem. There have been conflicting statements as to the severity. It may or may not be a factor, but it is possible. Which means a future surgery is also possible. The reason I say hthis is that Seattle made him a reliever. They may have seen something that flared up only after a high number of pitches thrown in an outing.

    Not saying that’s the case. Just something to keep in back of mind, given what we know of his history and current struggles. More likely, it’s the new mechanics and setting.

  11. I’m really curious about Overbeck’s new found plate discipline – his 23 walks this year are the same number as last year, but in roughly half the at-bats. If you look at his combined 2008 stats (thanks to thebaseballcube), he drew all of 28 walks in about 500 at-bats. From everything I have heard, he likes hacking, so it’s interesting to see his numbers blossom as he takes more walks.

    In a somewhat related note, is there a stat out there to measure plate discipline (other than BB%)? I like looking at a players ISO to give an idea of power numbers – does anyone use an OBP – BA stat out to give a gauge as to a player’s discipline. For instance, Werth last year hit .268 with an OBP of .373, giving him a “discipline” average of .105.

    Going with that idea, Overbeck’s minor league career has shown improvement each year: .033 in 2008, .052 in 2009, and .71 this year.

    Interestingly enough, Brown’s discipline average is .078 for both this year and last year. 2008 at Lakewood was .091.

    – Jeff

  12. My only major concern is that Aumont should be working on his mechanics in Single A against far less advanced hitters. It can’t be helping him to get massacred every 5th day. I’m quite patient with him but I dont see the point of the organization letting him get destroyed like this. They should have started him in Clearwater.

  13. NEPP, perhaps they feel he has the maturity to handle the getting “destroyed” and “massacred”. You know if he was in A+ working on mechanics he may get shelled there as well who cares where a guy is working on mechanics. Like PP said the results DO NOT MATTER its about making them stick and repeating them. Think of this, lets say the Phillies move him down to A+ and he still gets destroyed then what? Move him down again? Makes no sense, let him work it out where he is and if he needs to repeat the league next year so be it.

  14. My biggest concern about Aumont is that he has an injury. My second biggest concern is how many IP he is going to be allowed this year. He hasn’t thrown many innings in the past and as PP says, he is very young. Those are the sort of guys who develop arm problems if their team pushes to expand their IP too much in one season.

  15. Against weaker hitters, he might experience superficial results. Against better competition, the feedback is more instantaneous

  16. Patience is fine and all, and there are exceptions but frankly, the vast vast vast majority of the guys who become difference makers at the big league level never had a 7.00 ERA at any level after any meaningful sample regardless of mechanics/coaching/injuries/aggressive assignment issues. Obviously things could change as samples get bigger, but the alarm is not premature at this point, but if we aren’t allowed to mention it here, so be it.

  17. I will be going to Reading’s game today (yet again) start time is 2:05, Flande was supposed to get the start. I will post noteable events.

  18. I agree with Will ….If Aumont’s name was John Doe that hit 95mph but was getting killed at AA , how long would it take for him to get demoted to A ball ? .
    The problem is Aumont was labeled as the key piece in the Lee trade and Amaro is trying to save face hopeing he can turn it around.

  19. About Aumont, watching those first two innings was insane yesterday but I must say he did settle down and after he got out of the bases loaded jam it really seemed like he was in control. Also talking with the scouts yesterday and seeing their radar gun first hand it looks like Reading’s stadium radar gun has lost another mph. Which would make it slow by 3 mph (not the 2 I was factoring in in my posts) if that is the case his fast balls were all 90 or over. Its noteable as well that in his first two inning he was throwing then 92-96, and then slowed down to 89-93 in the next 3 innings. As I’ve followed him this was the first time he was above 92 with the new mechanics maybe that had something to do with horid start of the game.

  20. I thought Colvins start looked great apart from the 4 BBs. Only 2 hits in 5.1 innings and 5 Ks to go along with 8 GBs to only 1 FB.

  21. Thank you PP, btw does anyone know if rosenberg came back from injury too soon? if anyone has seen him pitch it would be interesting to see their take on his performance. thanks

  22. Let’s lower the mound or expand the distance from the rubber to home plate. 3 perfect games in one year? That’s atrocious. Let’s throw in Dice K’s near no hitter against the hapless Phils.

  23. Will Says:
    June 3, 2010 at 10:51 AM
    Patience is fine and all, and there are exceptions but frankly, the vast vast vast majority of the guys who become difference makers at the big league level never had a 7.00 ERA at any level after any meaningful sample regardless of mechanics/coaching/injuries/aggressive assignment issues. Obviously things could change as samples get bigger, but the alarm is not premature at this point, but if we aren’t allowed to mention it here, so be it.

    Exhibit A: Toronto Blue Jays 2000
    Roy Halladay: 19 Games-4W-7L-10.64-ERA-67.2-IP-107-H-44-SO- 2.202-WHIP
    HIGHEST ERA IN MLB HISTORY FOR IP

    LET THE KID ADJUST, most pitchers have problems, if he doesn’t pan out, it will go down as one of the worst trades in history. Can we please move on and focus on what we have now and not what we don’t. You people sound like scorned lovers, we all agree it was not a prudent move, hope for the best. what else can you do?

  24. Don’t know how good my posts will be about Readings game today. Its 1988 throwback game with (1988 prices) 2 dollar beers. Not good.

  25. “we all agree it was not a prudent move”
    While I would not have done the move, I can not say that the move was imprudent. If Gillies becomes the Phillies starting CF in 2013 and Aumont becomes a back of the bullpen performer in 2012 and Ramirez becomes a back of the rotation starter in 2013, then it was a prudent move.
    A move should not be labeled imprudent just because it does not pay off in immediate gratification for the fans.

  26. Roy Halladay is a perfect example because they were reworking his mechanics as well.

  27. Mike 77…that’s a lot of ifs

    Time will tell but we were lead to believe Aumont was a can’t miss prospect . Let the kid adjust at single A and maybe get his confidence back

  28. mark, being at the game, i am curious to know how fast colvin was throwing last night

  29. For anyone that cares VS network is airing Strasburg’s final start @ 7 tonight.

  30. Some notes about todays Reading game still not complete, Flande didn’t last long giving up 2 homerun, phillies offense shows up in a big way. Homeruns by Goeswhich (also 2 doubles) Rizzoti, Bozied and Mahar

  31. rizzotti with another hr today gives him 5 in reading this year. stil not getting enough time in the field tho

  32. Sorry, but I can’t say I was ever led to believe Aumont was a “can’t miss prospect”.

    There was hype around him as a fmr 1st round pick, young, struck out those guys in the world baseball classic, but not as “can’t miss”. Heck, they day we got him there was discussion about whether to try him in the pen or as a starter.

  33. Yep, there’s Halladay. Cue “the exception that proves the rule” speech. look, y’all can scream to high heaven to give the guy more time, but the only reason it annoys you so much that others are voicing frustration is because you’re trying so hard yourself to keep from saying the same thing.

  34. Well Trevor May’s control issues continue 7 walks in 3 innings, that is 18 walks in his last 10 and 2/3 innings. The excitement for him has definitely had to become some concern. I really hope he can learn to control his pitches.

  35. No Will, you’re not the voice of the silent majority. Some of us actually believe in giving him time and aren’t just putting on a happy face. What’s annoying is that the Lee horse is already dead so continually beating it brings nothing new to the table.

    Sadly, it becomes a situation where it appears some are hoping Aumont fails so they can get their “I told you so” moment in the sun..

  36. aumont needs to go back to the bullpen where he belongs.

    the lee trade was among the worst in phillies history. you don’t trade a top 10 pitcher when you’re trying to win a WS…especially when you get 3 prospects that ‘might’ contribute at the major league level.

    to justify that trade is asinine

  37. No, to write off two young pitchers and a young outfielder adjusting to a new team and system after just two months of results is asinine.

  38. No, to not go all out in last years draft signing the tough signs knowing we would be wanting prospects, for a guy who would make the phils the favorites in the NL(LEE) this is asinine and bad business. No i’m not writing off the prospects that’s not my point. If we could have gotten the 2 prospects that got away (catcher, OF) plus the 2 we would have gotten for lee at the end of the year when he walked seems to be a more significant haul plus an excellent chance of returning to the w.s.

  39. Can we really move past the ‘if Lee was on this team we’d win the World Series’ thing? Unless the man can figure out a way to make the opposition score -1 runs a game, he wouldn’t make a difference.

  40. I’m not writing off the prospects they got. From what I’ve read about them, they have potential to be MLB contributors. Those aren’t the kind of players you trade a top 10 pitcher for…especially when you’re the favorite to win your league.

    they didn’t get enough for lee and they shouldn’t have traded lee to begin with.

    skunky, do you like the trade? I don’t know how any phillies fan can since it’s one of the worst in team history

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