Arizona Fall League representatives?

Its just about that time again where the rosters for the Arizona Fall League will be announced. The rules for eligibility are pretty simple.

* Each MLB team generally sends 6 guys.
* 5 of the 6 players selected must come from AA and AAA, 1 can come from A ball
* International players (ie, non-drafted free agents) are only eligible if their country of origin does not have organized winter ball.

So, looking at those requirements, lets have your guesses.

Update –> Thanks to andyb, here are the rosters

Cisco, Mathieson, Schwimer, Zagurski
Gosewich, Hanzawa, Brown, Susdorf

113 thoughts on “Arizona Fall League representatives?

  1. maitheson? it could go either way. On one side u want to rest his fragile arm, on the other he has to keep making up ground.

  2. So , then , Freddy Galvis is not eligible because Venezuela will likely have Winter Ball, as in so many years past.

    I consider this a place for AA and some High A players can be made readier for AAA and perhaps the majors . Domonic Brown, because he will be likely to go to AAA and/or MLB , and because he missed some time with injury and will not be overworked, would be a likely candidate. Quinton Berry because I believe they will need a LH Batter OF for the CF and OF back-up, or he would likely move to AAA, regardless. Since they will share the team with 5 other teams, and getting 3 OF’s who should get some playing time on one team might be a bit much, The candidacy of Michael Taylor, might be softpedaled and he has played alot. So, I say the 3rd candidate would be Brad Harman, who is about the only non-Latin Middle Infield AA or above , who is not beyond the age group of benefit. The starting pitchers of the minors , you don’t want to risk overwork. So, I say, the relievers , Brian Rosenberg and Michael Schwimer get the 4th and 5th spot, with Schwimer getting the class A spot. They may need a back-up catcher to replace Bako, so, last but not least, I say the more defensively oriented Gosewisch, will get the 6th spot.

    So that’s:
    1. Domonic Brown
    2. Quinton Berry
    3. Brad Harman
    4. Brian Rosenberg
    5. Michael Schwimer
    6. James Gosewisch

  3. good thoughts marfis, but what about kennelly instead of Tuffy. I feel like he is more of a prospect and can use some work on his catching too.

  4. I’ll go with the following:

    1. Dom Brown – Just needs the development time
    2. Travis D’Arnaud – As their top catching prospect, additional coaching time is a must.
    3. Joe Savery – Still working on control issues
    4. Scott Mathieson – to build up arm strength in preparation for a shot at the big club pen in 2010.
    5. B.J. Rosenberg – Just to give him some additional work and see if he is ready for a quick jump to AAA.
    6. Brad Harman – Final audition to see if he is still a prospect or not..

  5. I’d be surprised if Taylor doesn’t go again but you all make good points as to why he might not.

    Mathieson (makes sense)

    Would be my guesses.

  6. Although, d’Arnaud is probably not ready for that level of play so he probably doesn’t go yet.

    Send Schwim instead.

  7. This comes from The Hog Blog in the Morning Call paper in Lehigh Valley:

    Michael Taylor hasn’t played since last Saturday in Buffalo.

    Today, he finally was placed on the disabled list.

    The talented outfielder is out with a strained lat muscle (rib cage pull, for those of us who remember such things) and there’s no timetable for his return.

    Taylor did say during last week’s brief home stand against the Yankees that he didn’t want to rush back and reaggravate the injury since he wants to play winter ball in the offseason to get some more at-bats.

    Sounds like his plan is to continue to improve his game with extended time during the winter. This doesn’t mean he is off to Arizona, but it does demonstrate his ability to physically meet a long seasons challenge.

  8. Phillies tend to use the AFL for different reasons and so much of it depends on the position slots they are able to get. I think Mathieson is a lock because you can always get a pitching slot (or 3 or 4) and they want to get him the work coming off the injury. I think Brown is a lock also. I’m not sure about Worley or Stutes because they are pitchers coming off their first full season of pro ball and have probably logged more significantly more innings than they did last year already. Worley is scuffling too. Is Bastardo eligible? He might go if he is healthy enough. I’d like to see Kennelly go. Susdorf would be a good guy to send since he missed ABs with the injury in the beginnig of the year. I’ll go with


  9. One other thing to add. I think they are still going to do the Hawaii developmental type league – except as a junior league in Arizona. It might be interesting to see some pitchers like Cosart, Pettibone, and Shreve get a few innings if they are healthy as the season runs out on them.

  10. I’ve never followed the Arizona Fall League. How does it work? How many extra plate appareances/innings does it allow some of these guys?

  11. The Arizona Fall League starts around October 15, runs for about 6 weeks. The League is based around the 6,or so, teams, who have training facilities, and/or a Rookie League Team based in Arizona. That team will stay at their home base, and will share a AFL team with around 4 other MLB teams on a rotating basis as determined by MLB. The teams sharing an AFL team will determine who is sent, the likely playing time, coaches, etc. Player eligibility is stated on post above this thread.

  12. Junior league is officially cancelled.

    Also, not sure if you all saw this, but Brian “The Blogger” Gump was promo’d to Lakewood.

  13. I vote for Susdorf, but that’s not a prediction, just wishful thinking. I think they have a real opportunity to get some return on him but they need to really push him to figure out if he can contribute to a ML team.

  14. is doing a update on the top 25 prospects in the Phillies organization. So far they have the following:

    17. Yohan Flande, LHP
    18. Julian Sampson, RHP
    19. John Mayberry, Jr., OF
    20. Mike Cisco, RHP
    21. Freddy Galvis, SS
    22. Jonathan Pettibone, RHP
    23. Domingo Santana, OF
    24. Jonathan Singleton, 1B
    25. Drew Naylor, RHP

    Will Rosenburg be on the list based on his performance this year?

  15. I think the Phils like to use the AFL to dertermine in at least some cases which players they want to put on next years 40 Man Roster. So I think you will see at least 3 of the 6 players be (on the bubble) and they want to look at them one more time before deciding

  16. Flande definitely has the Greg Oden, “I’m 48” look about him. It seems like he should be pitching to Ricky Henderson and Julio Franco in an Old Timers game.

  17. There’s good reason for all of those guys to be in the AFL. The only real surprises are Tuffy and Hanzawa, but the organization must really like what they’re seeing from those guys defensively.

    Unrelated to this thread at all — sorry, I don’t mean to be the one who does this — but I love PP’s idea in the Twitter feed of dealing for Alex Gordon this offseason. I have little doubt he can be pried loose from Kansas City for the right price, and at only 25 years old and still with the same tools that made him the #2 overall pick in 2005, he’d be a great “reclamation project” for Charlie Manuel and Milt Thompson.

  18. Love it too, actually have talked about it with friends of mine when they ask what I think the Phillies should do with Taylor. Not specifically Gordon but just a 3B prospect in general.

  19. The Scorpions have 6 infielders who are listed as shortstops. Don’t think Hanzawa will see much playing time in Arizona.

  20. Why would anyone trade Taylor for Gordon? He’s left handed, and hasn’t been able to hit a lick against left handers since he’s been in the big leagues.

    As frustrating as Feliz can be, the smartest thing to do is pick up Feliz’s 5 million dollar option.

  21. nowheels I think the Aussies can’t play because their own country has a winter league. There may be an exception for the team to select one or them or whatever.

  22. B, I don’t want to tangent this too much, but there are a number of reasons why I’d trade Taylor for Gordon. #1, Gordon would be cheaper than Feliz next year in salary, and offers considerably more upside. He’s struggled, but he was showing flashes before his hip injury this year, and the raw talent is obvious. Goldstein has an article up today that talks about Gordon, which is kind of what spurred on my comment, but I’d been pondering it long before that. Basically I think KC screwed up his development, and if you give him to Manuel and Milt, I think you’d see something really special. All of the pressures of him having to “Save the Franchise” would be gone if he were to be traded.

    Taylor is 23, will be 24 next year, and his value isn’t going to get much higher than it already is. If he repeats AAA next year (what choice does he have, really), how much higher will his value go? There is no clear spot for him in Philly, Werth and Victorino aren’t going anywhere, and the Phillies payroll is already close to maxed out. Using Taylor as a 4th OF is a waste of resources. This team desperately needs a 3B, the minor league pipeline is pretty barren in that respect, and the position is even fairly shallow across baseball after you get past the elite tier.

  23. I am not sold on Gordon. He strikes out alot. He’s hit few HRs in the minors this yr and has been injured.

    He’s a lefty and we are very lefty heavy. If he costs Taylor, then he’s also subtracting our best RH hitting prospect.

    Does this mean you lock up Werth longer? Not too crazy about that idea either. I’d rather have Carroll or McDonald in a utility role and keep Feliz at 3B. Worry about 3B in 2011.
    I wouldn’t mind trading for Kouzmanoff. He’d come cheaper than Gordon probably, is right handed and has pop. His defense isn’t bad at all.

  24. Look, I’d love it if Gordon were right-handed, but that’s not a reason not to make a deal that makes sense on a ton of other levels. The only “advantage” Kouzmanoff has over Gordon is that he’s not left-handed — Gordon is better offensively (.327 career EqA compared to .320 for Kouz), better defensively (career 2.9 UZR/150 compared to 1.1 for Kouz), and will likely have another year of team control.

    I like Taylor as much as anyone, but with Ibanez/Werth/Victorino entrenched through next year, Francisco (and even Mayberry) there to fill in if anyone gets injured, and Brown looking more and more like a can’t miss prospect everyday, swapping Taylor for Gordon is a great way to maximize his value.

    I know Feliz has had a nice year, but 1 year of Feliz vs. 3 or 4 years of Gordon is a no-brainer, for all the reasons PP mentioned.

  25. I kinda like From Section 113’s Kouzmanoff idea. I know he was never the prospect Gordon was, but I just looked up his stats and he’s hit 48 points higher outside of PETCO in his career. I wonder what he could do here? They are both change of scenery candidates for sure.

  26. I don’t really get why you’d trade a top 3 prospect for a reclamation project.

    I have suspected that the Phillies plan on moving Taylor since they brought in Francisco but I don’t see how trading him for a reclamation project works out. You can also just bring him up as the 4th OF next year and give Taylor 2 starts a week. Ibanez is one year old and Werth and Victorino could use a break every other week.

  27. BTW Congrats to Schwim for making the AFL, it’s a big honor and I think I speak for everyone when I say we’re looking forward to him dominating the top prospects in baseball.

  28. Yea, no doubt. Mad props to Schwim for his AFL gig…Very interested to see results for him, Brownie, and Scotty M for very different reasons each.

  29. gordon doesn’t excite me for a number of reasons – the largest is that i don’t think that he has the mental makeup. but if you really want gordon, then you certainly shouldn’t put him in a position where he is the starting 3b next year on a championship caliber team. he needs a year in the minors with no pressure. or at least a year as a bench player. also, i think that it is ridiculous to trade taylor for him. taylor has a lot more value than gordon does. i am all for trading taylor for a good, young 3rd baseman. but gordon isn’t good. i read that article too and it isn’t very flattering.

  30. trading Taylor for Gordon is ridiculous.

    #1- Taylor is worth more than Gordon right now
    #2- We do not “desperately” need a 3b this year or next
    #3- Raul will be 38 next year. I could easily see 200-250 ab’s available.
    #4- If we need another pitcher Taylor is still a good bargaining chip.

  31. We should exercise Feliz Option. He is too important to our Left Handed Starting Pitchers.

    That done, I would love to trade for him and ease him in in a limited platoon role replacing Dobbs’ At Bats at 3B because he is a very good fielder.

    Then if the Cholly/Milt Magic Rubs off you go forward with Gordon in 2011.

  32. PP I do not think that Taylor is a future HoF but I do not understand why you trade him for a reclamation project. If you have time it might make for a good article to discuss the pros and cons of trading Taylor for Gordon.

  33. The way people talk about Gordon, he’s a 32 year old hasbeen who’s never done anything in his career. He’s 25. Hes not a “reclamation project”, he just needs a change of scenery and the burden of being a franchise cornerstone taken off his shoulders.

    This did give me an idea for a post though about trade value. I might throw that up later this week.

  34. For what it’s worth, I’m on the Taylor-for-Gordon bandwagon if that’s actually an option.

    I think the masses are vastly understating Gordon’s upside. He needs work, but he isn’t a “reclamation project” — he’s a guy who was unfairly thrust into the middle of an MLB lineup as a 23-year old and saddled with unrealistic expectations. Take a look at his PECOTA card (top three comps: Pat Burrell, Eric Chavez, Troy Glaus; upside score of 135.6) and his minor league track record (.327/.433/.591, almost all of coming as a 22-year old jumped to Double-A in his first taste of pro ball) and then realize something: he’s 25 years old. He is worth more than Taylor right now, he doesn’t need to spend a year in the minors or on the bench — he just needs a change of scenery, and some at bats where he isn’t expected to anchor a lineup.

    Put it this way: Gordon still has the same ceiling as a hitter as Taylor, and he’s every bit as likely to reach that ceiling as Taylor is — it’s just that if Gordon does, he’ll be putting up those numbers at 3B instead of in a corner outfield spot, which is much more valuable (especially to the Phillies, who have outfielders galore and no 3B other than Pedro Feliz and his career .294 OBP).

  35. I have not been able to see Gordon play but if they have scouted him,putting a solid young 3rd baseman in the lineup would be an excellent move. Pedro is limited and ties up 5 million. Make the trade and go younger.

  36. Since there isn’t a daily thread, and this topic has gone off track anyway, I think it’s safe to post here –

    Drabek is getting rocked. He’s through 1 inning, gave up 3 runs, 4 hits, 3 of them being for extra bases. This brings his season ERA at AA to 3.65. He really hasn’t dominated this level so far. Do you start him at Reading against next year, and move him up to AAA (assuming he pitches well) around the all star game? Or do you just start him in AAA anyway.

  37. “He is worth more than Taylor right now, he doesn’t need to spend a year in the minors or on the bench”

    If this were 12 months ago that statement would be correct, but it just isn’t true right now.

    ALso, in researching their comparisons at the same age in double A (prorating our Taylor for a full season compare vs Gordon’s AA full season) I think it is a wash. If they were the same age now you would igve the edge to Gordon due to position, BUT and it is a big BUT we have 2 more years of data on Gordon that is at best middling.

    Gordon Age 23 AA 29HR, 101RBI, 22SB, 325BA, 427OBP, 588SLG and 1.016OPS

    Taylor AGe 23AA (prorated) 23HR, 98RBO, 27SB, 333BA, 408OBP, 569SLG and 977OPS

    I would argue that the ceiling for Taylor is higher mainly because of the unknown (MT ages 24/25)vs the known (AG 24/25)…….

    all that said, would it be worth making a run at Gordon? Absolutely….but Taylor is much too high of a price.

  38. I COMPLETELY AGREE about trading for a 3B this winter. I prefer Zimmermann but hed cost more and the Nats probably would want to keep their franchise position player around to be there when Strasburg debuts in 2010.

    Taylor is not going to be a Phillie. They were willing to trade him for Halladay, and if they can land a young, cheap 3B (Alex Gordon does fit that bill), I have to think that Taylor will be out the door.

    Dominic Brown is a year or half a year behind Taylor in his development, so you go ahead and hang onto Brown. Taylor is going to more or less be MLB ready next spring. The way Jayson Werth is playing this year NOBODY is taking that slot away from him 30+ HR already and will probably reach the 100 rbi mark too.

    Victorino is under team control for a few more years as well. My guess is that Brown will come up to play RF when Werth walks for big money as a free agent after NEXT season. So Taylor basically is going to be ready one year too soon to come up and take a starting spot from one of those three guys.

    Ben Francisco is the IDEAL 4th OF for this team and he will have that role for a few more seasons.

    Any other young, cheap 3B options to replace Feliz when they buyout his option year?

  39. Taylor is probably going to be traded in the offseason anyway. If you look at the roster and project out from the minors you can see hes got nowhere to go. I think the only real place they need to solidify for a few more years WHILE building depth in the minors and finding the successor during that time is at 3B.

  40. Ridiculous…I have no problem going after Gordon, but MT is worth more right now. It is about value.

  41. I do not believe MT wil be traded in the offseason. I am telling you he will get 200ABs next yr…in Phila

  42. I think if Michael Taylor is doing in a couple years what Alex Gordon is doing now, most of us would be very disappointed with those results. I don’t think that deal makes sense for the Phillies from a value standpoint.

  43. At who’s expense? Is he better than Shane Victorino? NO. Raul Ibanez? NO. Jayson Werth? NO. Not right now. Probably not by the start of next season.

    Francisco is better in the part time 4th OF role than Taylor would be or Mayberry was. GUys like Taylor need to play everyday to rack up numbers, not come off the bench man. The guy will be best used as a trading chip for our next 3B

  44. Geoff,
    You think Raul will be healthy over the next two years? love the guy, supported the move when it wasn’t popular, but I think he will be playing less, not more.

  45. Geoff,

    I’m not ready to bury Ibanez yet, but Taylor might be better than him next year. I hate to get on Ibanez, because he was so great early in the year, but he’s been pretty poor as of late. Maybe that hot start was an aberration?

  46. Ibanez has been playing hurt most of the season. He has not been the same since going on the DL.

  47. Geoff – agreed, but is he hurt now? I haven’t been following his injury status that closely, but I haven’t heard him complaining that he’s still hurt (although he might be).

    All I’m saying is if someone is giving him a ton of credit for his freakishly abnormal start, you have to take away points for this relatively poor period he’s having. And that period is starting to approach the length of his early season success.

    I think in the end, Ibanez is a nice player, but I think everyone can agree he’s not the player he was early in the year. That’s the great thing about baseball, players generally show their true worth over 162 games.

  48. I think thats why they got Francisco, who can fill in guy injured guys and play part time. He will excel in that role. Taylor CANNOT be a part time player waiting for Raul or someone to get injured. Steve Susdorf is also a good option for a bench player in the near future. I think hed do ok off the bench too.

    Taylor is a starter and there is nowhere for him to play EVERYDAY. You should try and maximize his value now. Plus, we have several good young OF’s coming through the system.

  49. I agree that they should try and trade Taylor for a 3B, that would be the best situation for them. I’m just thinking if they can’t move him. I don’t think the Nats would trade Zimmerman, and like the earlier poster said, I wouldn’t trade him for Gordon.

    If the Phillies really wanted to, they could get creative and get Taylor 400 ABs or so next year. For starters, they could platoon with Ibanez (still would get more ABs because there are more righties), and play for Vic and Werth when they need a day off. That and being the first bat off the bench, I think that would get him to 400 ABs. It would really only be a one year thing (I’m assuming they don’t have the cash to get Werth).

    Just trying to think.

  50. I think Brown will replace Werth. Taylor will be moved because he wont develop if he doesnt play everyday. I just cant figure out what other young affordable 3B’s (who would be traded) would be targets here.

  51. Geoff – I was alluding to the fact that it would just be a one year situation, Werth would walk after next year, and Taylor would be the full time RF in 2011. At which time, theoretically they could do the same thing with Brown. It would definitely be crowded for a few years, but I think the long term benefits would be great. Remember, the Phillies can control these guys for CHEAP over the next few years. It’s silly to take a lesser players just because we have a crowded OF until the end of 2011.

  52. Geoff – I agree with you that I’m having trouble thinking of any 3B canidates around the league. I might have to look through some rosters later tonight.

    But I have to disagree that Taylor “won’t develop” if he doesn’t get 650 ABs. I think Taylor is already close to a finished product. Remember, my plan is only for ONE year. I really doubt that this will screw him up too bad. Quite frankly, it wouldn’t surprise me if Taylor comes up and plays really well, and ends up really eating into Ibanez’s time and we have another Happ/Moyer situation on our hands.

  53. THe issue is Rauls contract. Are you going to pay a guy 10M on avg to be a part time player? I dunno. Cant really trade him. I still think he will give you one more good season out of the next two.

  54. Im so glad they made the right choice with Happ over Moyer. I was nervous there for a while.

  55. True – I hope that Ibanez plays well and we just have too much talent. It’s just a gut feeling on my part that Ibanez will eventually show his true colors and settle into a nice .275-.285 25HR type guy.

    Well, it’s not 10M, but they’ve shown they’re willing to eat some cash by putting Moyer (6.5 M) in the pen. I know it’s hard for all of us long time Phillies fans to get through our head, but I think this organization really thinks differently these days in terms of $’s and production. They no longer keep on running Andy Ashby out there just because they paid him a lot. If they have a viable alternative, I think they will play the best available player.

  56. Im sitll excited about Colvin. Thats the new young pitcher to follow through the system. A lot of hype going to be following him for years. Dugan, Hudson are projectable to the major leagues but still like 3-5 years away.

  57. Thats another question. Who is WORHTY of trading Taylor for at 3B? Zimmerman, Gordon would be available. Im NOT a fan of Edwin Encarnacion. Chone Figgins is a pending FA. Longoria is untouchable. A-Rod not going anywhere, Boston wont trade any of those guys either. Melvin Mora will be a FA I think. Michael Young and Scott Rolen would be too expensive – such that keeping Feliz then would be the better option. Id even overpay a bit for a young, cheap guy at 3rd. I mean, there is NOONE who seems like a major league everyday 3B in this farm system.

  58. Look I would trade MT for Zimmerman in a ny second…but that aint happening.

    I thin MT will get ABs next yrt not because Raul will slump,but because he will be hurt.

  59. People on here are ridiculous. First of all, Ryan Zimmerman just signed a long-term deal with the Nats. The idea that the Phillies could just up and trade for him is laughable. The Nats would be ridiculed if they traded their franchise player. IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Just stop talking about it.

    Also, I don’t think many people outside of this site would think Michael Taylor has more value than Alex Gordon. Gordon is still young, has shown the ability to hit at the MLB level, plays a more important position than Taylor, plays it well, and had better numbers in the minors at a younger age than Taylor. Sorry to burst the bubble of people on here, but Taylor for Gordon would be a good deal for the Phillies. I’d be all for it as well.

  60. You could offer Drabek, Taylor and say PTNL (Colvin) and the Nats probably still can’t trade Zimmerman. That’s probably more than 2x value, but you can’t trade the foundation of your franchise for prospects. You just can’t.

  61. tom, i’ve been mentioning wood for almost a year now and people either aren’t interested in him or don’t know who he is. He is a little old for aprospect 24 or 25 but that’s mostly because he had no where to play. I would trade taylor straight up for him but my guess is that the angels will now let figgins walk and start wood on the cheap. Wood would be devastating @ CBP!

  62. Zim is the guy i would love to have man 3b in my fantasy world but (and this is just for fun to determine the value of our prospects related to a known star commodity) the conversation would have to begin with drabek, taylor, and would end by adding bastardo, gose, carpenter rosenberg and stutes. I don’t know that eiter team would even pull the trigger on that deal; it’s too much for us to give away and the nats would have to deal with fan backlash.

  63. I for one don’t think Tayor is the next coming of greatness, I just don’t see why we should move on a player who has struggled and give up our best righ handed prospect for him.

    Taylor may not be an All Star and be league average at best, but what if Gordon never turns it around then what? This was all started because some believe Manuel and THompson can figure him out. WHo’s to say they can? Look at Ruiz nd JRoll and Howard and the bench all struggle at times.

    I just don’t have faith that Gordon will become this excellent hitter again. I wold easily have traded Taylor in a package for Halladay or even Lee, but for Gordon? Besides, KC need pitching, they are obviously not getting it from Meche. Who even knows if they would want Taylor.

  64. Sorry to burst the bubble of people on here, but Taylor for Gordon would be a good deal for the Phillies. I’d be all for it as well.

    Thank you.

    That Dude: your comparison of Gordon’s and Taylor’s numbers is off in one key respect: Gordon tackled Double-A at Age 22 in his first taste of pro ball, whereas Taylor was 23 and had over 700 pro at bats under his belt before facing Double-A pitching. That being said, Gordon still still put up better numbers at a younger age, and playing a more premium position: he walked more (12.9% to 9.9%), hit for more power (.263 ISO to .236 ISO) and was just plain and simply better overall (.452 wOBA to .438 wOBA).

    Taylor may not be an All Star and be league average at best, but what if Gordon never turns it around then what?

    If Gordon “never turns it around” and his development stops right here — which I simply don’t believe will happen, especially under the tutelage of Manuel and Thompson, but let’s say for argument’s sake that it does — then I think it’s fair to expect a string of hitting performances like 2008 (.260/.351/.432) from him. That’s basically league average production for a 3B (.268/.343/.428). So if given the choice between a “league average at best” LF/RF in Taylor, and a league average 3B in Gordon, which do you prefer?

    Look, this isn’t a Michael Taylor bashing session. I love the guy, and think he’s got excellent value — it’s actually a great compliment that he’s worthy of being discussed in a swap for a premium young 3B talent like Alex Gordon. But ask Kevin Goldstein, or Keith Law, or any respected analyst if they’d pull the trigger on a Taylor-for-Gordon deal, and I doubt they’d hesitate to say yes.

  65. Since this has seemed to morph into a goofy trade rumors thread, here’s this.

    I say they can get Zimmerman from the Nationals. The offers on here are not nearly enough. What does Washington need? They need good defensive OF’s. So you trade them Werth and Taylor, pick up Feliz’s option (which is cheap, by the way) to replace at 3B. They move Willingham back to Catcher (which he has played before) and they have a good defensive Catcher to work in with him. They can leave Dunn at 1B. They will need a veteran pitcher to anchor the staff, and help out the younger pitchers , so you send Moyer (paying all the salary thereof) If all that is not enough you discuss Hamels, with a young pitcher added on their end.So, all they need after that is some new Middle Infield and pitching and they are set.

    Phillies end, Domonic Brown will progress through AA equivalent in Arizona Fall League, and can play RF in 2010, it would be hoped. Zimmerman will man 3B with the rest of the regulars intact save for Ruiz who may get a bench role if Benjie Molina can be signed after making it through to FA and getting signed by Phillies. They can Work in at Catcher, and they can try for Jose Valverde as an alternative closer, which will eliminate the possibility of possibly massively overpaying for the 1st and 2nd round draft choices.

  66. just how good defensivly is gordon? is he now or potentually as good as feliz. if so i do taylor and a pitcher for him. it seems his offense is not in question. as far as ibanez and it,s ONLY A QUESTION, does the blogger who questioned ibanez,s diet at midseason maybe have a point. it,s awfully coincidental. i,m sure many of you have wondered the same thing. obviously i hope not.

  67. there is no chnce of getting zimmerman…move on from that.

    Gordon has had 3 years since his AA season and not done anything. He isnt worth a blue chip prospect. He is worth a John Mayberry and maybe another 2 id level guys. That’s not to say he wouldnt turn it around, but he isnt as “shiny” anymore.

  68. I checked out Gordons career numebrs. And I have to agree with Phuture Phillies here. He is struggling this season, maybe injured, got reassigned even. But he DOES have decent career power numbers for a 3B not juicing or not insanely good. Hed be cheaper than Pedro – who you have to think will be bought out.

    The main issue is what to do with Michael Taylor. Id be okbringing Feliz back, since I beleive Taylor will be traded the main position that they really need to lock down for the future is 3B. Taylor is too good to trade for some run of the mill bullpen arm and we already have a pipeline of starting pitchers. So 3B is the only thing youd trade him for really.

  69. I urge people to take a look at his career numbers. For someone that would come cheap in terms of salary for a few years thats really not bad…just take out this season.

  70. Why would you think Gordon is worth a top prospect? I can’t figure that one out. I guess that my thinking is way off, yeah maybe a cloyd and esclona plus a young kid like D’myers .

  71. Mikemike- Now that’s going too far in the other direction. Gordon is a legit young player and even in his struggles would command something quality. My only problem with this is trading our best young RH bat for a large question mark.

  72. ***Hes not a “reclamation project”, he just needs a change of scenery and the burden of being a franchise cornerstone taken off his shoulders.***

    i simply don’t understand how you are so confident about this statement but on the other hand not so confident about Taylor’s future. what makes you so confident that all he needs is a change of scenery…and presto, he is hitting .280 with some power? for every guy that a “change of scenery works” there are dozens guys that it doesn’t. there could be a number of factors that have caused gordon’s poor performance that have nothing to do with a change of scenery. further, there are a lot of examples of guys who have great minor league careers and just don’t translate into stars at the mlb level. how do we know that he is not one of those guys?

    but an even more important point is if you are the GM of a championship caliber team, you don’t swap a solid veteran for a 25 year old who is unproven at the major league level and plug him in as a starter. you just don’t do that. this isn’t fantasy baseball where you can try to buy low and see if it works. if we can pick him up cheap and put him on the bench to see if we can turn him around, then i am all for it. but plugging him in as a starter is a terrible decision.

  73. Would trade Taylor for Gordon without blinking an eye. Even if you’re convinced Taylor will put up better #’s, corner OF is the easiest position to fill in the Majors. If Gordon only produced 75%-80% of what Taylor gives you, the fact that Gordon plays 3b is worth the trade-off.

    Since I expect Taylor’s ML numbers won’t be that much better, the deal would be an easy one.

  74. This is what Im trying to figure out. It is REALLY obvious that Taylor is THE most blocked legit prospect they have right now. He is not going to be a starter on the big club next year, and therefore its better for him to play everyday than it is for him to sit on teh bench. Therefore you have to trade him. But someone of his quality – you have to nail down a 3B who has a few years left on a contract that isnt insanely expensive. They have NO 3B depth in teh system – its definitely their new blindspot.

    To me they HAVE to go out and get a long-term solution at 3B to lock it down while they build depth in the minor leagues at that position, which could take years. They wont have anyone ready if they give Feliz another year. So now is the time to maximize Taylors value and get a guy who can play third for 3-4 years while you build organizational depth there.

    I think Gordon is better than hes given credit for, BUT there are several other options. Guys that YOU THINK could realistically be traded. Who have contract that the Phillies could REALISTICALLY take on….anybody?

  75. Have you looked at Gordon’s career numebrs? He has power, he needs to improgve his average. Throw out this season. Is he injured or something?

  76. **Have you looked at Gordon’s career numbers? He has power, he needs to improve his average. **

    yes, i have. throwing out this year, and only looking at his best year, his homeruns per AB ranked him 24th overall, below Pedro Feliz, by the way.

    also, what makes you so shore that it is so easy to just “improve your average”? that is kind of a big leap of faith.

  77. Feliz isn’t an irreplaceable player. I like him, but would love to upgrade that position. I think going younger and especially with a guy with upside, is the way to go. Sign me up.

  78. there are a lot of examples of guys who have great minor league careers and just don’t translate into stars at the mlb level. how do we know that he is not one of those guys?

    We don’t. Then again, we don’t know that about Taylor either. All you can do is play the percentages, trust your scouts, and believe that Manuel and Thompson are among the best in the business when it comes to helping guys hit. But the fact that — as I think I demonstrated above — Gordon put up better numbers at a younger age and a more premium position than Taylor has to weigh heavily toward him having a better shot of not being one of those guys, right?

    but an even more important point is if you are the GM of a championship caliber team, you don’t swap a solid veteran for a 25 year old who is unproven at the major league level and plug him in as a starter. you just don’t do that.

    How is he unproven? His most recent full season saw him post a .260/.351/.432 line — good for a .344 wOBA and a 110 OPS+. Pedro’s best season (all the way back in 2004) saw him hit .276/.305/.485 — good for a .334 wOBA and an even 100 OPS+. Pedro hasn’t cracked an 85 OPS+ since that year. I mean, it’s really not even close.

    In my mind, if you’re the GM of a championship caliber club, you can afford to swap out a 34-year old below-average 3B making $5 million for a 25-year old potential All-Star 3B who makes less money and is already a better hitter than your current guy. I mean, imagine if we’d refused to give Utley a shot because he was “unproven” and Polanco was a “solid veteran.”

  79. Friar – I see the points you are making and I am starting to agree with your statements. I have repeatedly asked if the Phillies could trade Taylor for another top notch prospect at either SS or 3b. I believe I misunderstood PhuturePhillies original post. I expected Gordon to have potential but to have looked worse than his #s state.

    Is Gordon near Feliz in the field? One of the reasons the Phillies are so good is that their defense is one of the best in the majors. If Gordon is not a major downgrade in the field then I think I’m coming around to the trade Taylor for Gordon side.

  80. Phenix, I’m running out right now, but quickly: Gordon is not as good a fielder as Feliz, but he’s nonetheless average or slightly above. “Average or slightly above” would be a pretty substantial downgrade from 2006-2007 Pedro, when he posted insane UZR/150 numbers of 14.3 and 22.3, but the current Pedro is a 5.0 UZR/150 guy. Gordon is a career 2.9 UZR/150 guy, so while there is a downgrade, it’s fairly minimal.

  81. Performance at the ML level increases someone value infinitely, so Gordon’s value is probably close to Taylor’s as he’s hit at the ML level, but why sell low on Taylor when he’s just about ready to take on the ML level? If Ibanez got hurt again and Taylor came up and hit .290 with some power next year for a month would the trade still make sense? I just think Taylor is really on the cusp of being a ‘complete product’ and his value as a complete product is much higher then it is now, so why cut bait now?

  82. OT: Santana hit his 6th dinger of the year a 2 run shot … perhaps the phils might think about Santana as a 3rd base option?

  83. Friar –

    What does UZR/150 mean? Is it runs saved?

    Feliz’ defense has regressed this year which is sort of odd since he looks healthy.

  84. Honestly, I think Domingo Santana should probably be in the top 10 of the Phils prospects.

    The GCL is a rookie league, but it’s a legit. league with real prospects with talent.

    Santana is hitting .284 with plate discipline and serious power. Six homers in slightly more than 100 ABs.

    And here’s the kicker. The kid JUST TURNED 17

  85. Feliz is an MLB quality 3B who can be returned for a relatively cheap 5 million a year. It is highly likely his option will be renewed. If they consider this Gordon it should be as someone to work in at the position and to be awarded playing time as merited. The non-playing 3B can be a bench player on a day to day basis. An as yet unproven MLB player should not just be cemented into a positon by some offseason prospect trade. I would say Taylor would be capable of more offensive production in total, so trading for some positonal percieved need by some on here, would be of little or no advantage. Taylor is not blocked , whatsoever, because he also is not yet proven at the MLB level. A full season at AAA would be in line with his development progression. Just like last offseason with the major howl about the horrible blocking of Marson and Donald, this season they went to AAA and did not excel. Now they moved on in trade. Taylor and also Brown are at the level they can be moved up to MLB next season on an as needed basis. And with a full year of AAA development they can have starting spots as things progress. There is not a need to go shifting prospects for other prospects because some outside observer can see a better organizational chart. After Feliz finishes his option year the 3B positon will be filled, and there is no need to toss away top OF prospects to do so. GIven another season, internal options at 3B can develop within a short period of the need, despite the downgrading of some.

  86. Where does Mathieson rank in the Phillies top ten prospects? I’d say in the top ten, with his closer potential.

  87. cedric bowers, terry tiffee, and bj rosenberg were named to the US Sqauad that will play in the IBAF world cup in Europe from Sept 9-27

  88. Marfis, the point is that only ONE of brown and taylor will be a starter before they get stale. Brown I think will take the slot vacated by Werth, who will get paid in FA by someone. But then theres anotehr year after that. One of those gusy will be sitting too long in the minors and will get stale like Carrasco did. Theyve gotta deal one of them and it will be taylor.

  89. Raul isnt going anywhere with that contract. Victorino is under control through 2011 and Werth through next season.

  90. Why would they not pay Felix 5 million next year.They are not going to put Gordon there a proven flop on a world series champ. makes no sense

  91. Both Brown and Taylor can play a full season next season in AAA along with working in in MLB as needed. Affer next season, Werth could go FA , and Ibanez would be in the last year of his contract at 39. Taylor can begin to work in as a bench player, play in times of injury or ineffectiveness and against certain LHP’s , and then assume the starting role the next season, as it could be projected out. I was reading about Kansas City’s team offensive ineffectiveness this season, so Gordon has had plenty of opportunities and did not produce, so you don’t just hand him a starting job, and toss away a top prospect to do so. So use the above OF plan, retain Feliz for a cheap 5 million, and then try to trade some excess mid level talent for Gordon, if need be, and he can work in with Feliz, and the one who is not playing can be an infield bench reserve.

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