Open Discussion: Week of December 6th

Monday, the virtual winter meetings begin.  I don’t think we can expect a lot of interesting reporting.  I do expect that a lot of breaking news will put the owners in a good light.  Their waterboys in the national media will probably get all the scoops.  Just like during all the drama during the COVID negotiations in March…April…May…

Speaking of hacks, Buster Olney and Joel Sherman teamed up to break fake news.

Olney reported that the Phillies are shopping Zack Wheeler.  He was very wrong.

Sherman reported that the Twins’ Thad Levine was a candidate for the PoBO position.  Yes, the Phillies reached out and asked permission to speak with Levine.  But, that was over a week ago, and was fake news by the time Sherman got a hold of it Friday.

National guys (yeah NY writers think they’re national) should do a better job vetting local news that the beat writers haven’t broken yet.  But, they gotta get those clicks.

This is what happens when out of towners try to monopolize the reporting biz.  At least Olney went to the trouble of updating his story when the denials were reported by the beat writers.

This an example that we should not lose our heads over anything the national guys write.  They DON’T know.  If the beat writers don’t have it, the national guys don’t have it.


I have to clear up a story I hinted about since Thanksgiving.  It seems that Trevor May never reached agreement nor had a physical with the Phillies.  There were negotiations and it looked like a deal was impending.  But, offering the deal did not receive approval and that was that.  Note, this was NOT a Middleton intervention.  My guess (and this is a pure guess) is that Klentak (and maybe Rice) was involved in the deal and a newly inserted level of oversight didn’t like the risk attached to May (or the numbers being floated).


The Phillies came to agreement or tendered contracts to their remaining arb eligible players. Hector Neris, Zach Eflin, David Hale, Andrew Knapp, and Seranthony Dominguez avoided arbitration when they reached agreements with the Phillies.  Vince Velasquez and Rhys Hoskins were tendered but did not accepted contract offers.  Two other arb eligible players, Adam Morgan and Heath Hembree had been outrighted and elected free agency on 10/30/2020.

No word on Victor Arano.  The Phillies had listed Arano as arb-eligible in 2021 last year only to change that after the 2020 season to 2022.  Baseball Reference also has him as arb-eligible in 2022.  Seems off.  He started his MLB career in 2017 and was on the roster in 18 and 19 before being on the IL all of 2020.  (Update:  Arano was optioned all of 2020, he wasn’t on the IL.  So, he didn’t earn service time, pushing his first arb year back to 2022.  Thank you, Matt W.)


The Rule 5 Draft will be held on Thursday, December 10th.


Former Marlins GM/PoBO Mike Hill and Dodgers Senior VPoBO Josh Byrnes are still in the running for the Phillies PoBO.  Per Jim Salisbury, second interviews are coming.  Always wait for the local beat writers to break Phillies news.  Don’t trust the national guys.

The Phillies had attempted to reach out to others and had asked the targets and their teams to keep the contacts confidential.  But, the names will always get out.  All offices have leaks.  The Phillies probably have about 50-60 leaks right now.  Maybe one of them was Olney’s source.


Winter League Baseball

Liga de Béisbol Profesional Roberto Clemente – will start on December 8, 2020 with four teams – Indios de Mayagüez, Criollos de Caguas, Atenienses de Manatí and the new development project RA12 owned by local hero Roberto Alomar.  Three teams decided not to play.  Their players are to be considered free agents for this season only.

Liga Mexicana del Pacifico, Liga de Beisbol Dominicano, and Liga Venezolana de Béisbol Profesional have all begun play.

Darick Hall is en fuego.  He has seen time in LF, a practice that should have been initiated by the Phillies a couple years ago.  They should look at him at third, too.

Gabriel Cotto was listed on the RA12 roster in Puerto Rico, but seems to have popped up on a Dominican roster.

Pitchers

NAME W L ERA G GS SV IP H R ER HR BB K WHIP
Ramon Rosso 1 0 0.47 5 4 0 19.0 7 1 1 1 3 20 0.53
Enyel De Los Santos 0 0 0.00 2 0 0 1.2 0 0 0 0 2 3 1.20
Adonis Medina 0 0 6.00 2 0 0 3.0 4 2 2 0 2 3 2.00
Cristopher Sanchez 0 0 13.50 2 0 0 0.2 1 1 1 0 2 0 4.50
Johan Quezada 0 0 6.75 2 0 0 1.1 2 1 1 1 2 0 3.00
Fernando Lozano 3 0 1.84 9 1 0 14.2 12 3 3 0 4 5 1.09
Erubiel Armenta 0 1 0.96 8 0 0 9.1 4 2 1 1 7 9 1.18
Efrain Morales 0 0 0.00 2 0 0 2.0 2 0 0 0 2 2 2.00
Carlos Betancourt
Eiberson Castellano
Leonel Aponte 0 0 0.00 1 0 0 2.1 0 0 0 0 0 3 0.00
Gabriel Cotto

Batters

NAME G AB R H 2B HR RBI BB SO SB AVG OBP SLG OPS
Jonathan Guzman 11 17 2 1 1 0 0 2 4 0 0.059 0.158 0.118 0.276
Rodolfo Duran 2 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0.500 0.500 0.500 1.000
Odubel Herrera 2 7 2 2 0 0 0 1 1 0 0.286 0.375 0.286 0.661
Darick Hall 10 37 4 12 1 3 16 5 13 0 0.324 0.409 0.595 1.004
Daniel Brito 9 34 7 8 2 0 5 3 6 2 0.235 0.289 0.294 0.584
Edward Barboza 2 5 1 1 1 0 1 2 2 0 0.200 0.429 0.400 0.829
Simon Muzziotti
Yhoswar Garcia
Kevin Escalante
Jadiel Sanchez

Australian Baseball League

The four of the six ABL teams start December 17, 2020.  Adelaide and Brisbane won’t start their seasons until January 5th.  The season runs through January 31, 2021.

  • RHP Kyle Glogoski
  • C Mitchell Edwards
  • 1B Rixon Wingrove
  • LHP Jonathan Hennigan
  • RHP Tyler Burch
  • RHP Austin Ross
  • LHP Taylor Lehman
  • C Colby Fitch
  • INF Luke Williams
  • SS Kendall Simmons
  • SS Jamari Baylor
  • OF Cornelius Randolph
  • LHP Josh Tols
  • C Chris Burke
  • RHP Luke Leftwich
  • RHP Josh Gessner
  • LHP Josh Hendrickson

 


One transactions was announced by MLBTR, the signing of Ronald Torreyes to a minor league contract with an invitation to spring graining.  He’s a close friend of Didi.  I wonder if, nah.  Never mind.

I’m not posting the transaction below until it appears somewhere official.


This is the Phuture Phillies Open Discussion for Phillies and other baseball topics.


Key Dates:

  • September 30, 2020 – Expiration of the Professional Baseball Agreement between MLB and MiLB
  • October 15, 2020, 5:00 PM EDT – Close of the 2019 international signing period
  • October 28, 2020 – Trading resumes, day after the World Series ends
  • November 1, 2020 – Deadline for teams to make qualifying offers to their eligible former players who became free agents
  • November 11, 2020 – Deadline for free agents to accept qualifying offers
  • November TBA – GM Meetings (Nov. 11-14, Scottsdale, AZ in 2019)
  • November TBA – Owners meetings (Nov. 19-21, Arlington, TX in 2019)
  • November 20, 2020 – Deadline to submit 40-man rosters before Rule 5 Draft
  • November TBA – MLBPA executive board meeting (Nov. 26-29 in Irving, TX in 2018)
  • December 2, 2020 – Non-tender Deadline – Last day for teams to offer 2021 contracts to unsigned players (pre-arb and arb eligible) on their 40-man rosters
  • December 6-10, 2020 – Winter Meetings in Dallas, Texas, at the Omni Dallas Hotel and Kay Bailey Hutchison Convention Center Dallas, held in conjunction with the Baseball Trade Show and PBEO Job Fair.
  • December 10, 2020 – Rule 5 Draft
  • January TBA – Rookie Career Development Program
  • January 15, 2021 – Deadline for teams and arb eligible players to submit salary figures to arbiter
  • January 15, 2021, 9:00 AM EST – Start of the 2020 international signing period
  • February 17, 2021 – Voluntary spring training reporting date for pitchers, catchers, and players recovering from injuries
  • February 22, 2021 – Voluntary spring training reporting date for position players
  • February 24, 2021 – Mandatory spring training reporting date
  • February 27, 2021 – First spring training game v. Blue Jays
  • April 1, 2021 – Opening Day for ALL 30 teams
  • June 25, 2021 – Close of the 2020 international signing period
  • July 11-13, 2021 – 2021 Amateur Draft

The rosters and lists are up to date as of December 6th … 317 players in the org


Transactions (newest transactions are in bold print)

11/20/2020 – Phillies selected the contract of LHP Kyle Dohy from Lehigh Valley
11/20/2020 – Phillies selected the contract of LHP Damon Jones from Lehigh Valley
11/20/2020 – Phillies selected the contract of SS Nick Maton from Lehigh Valley
11/20/2020 – Phillies selected the contract of RHP Francisco Morales from Lehigh Valley
11/20/2020 – Phillies selected the contract of CF Simon Muzziotti from Lehigh Valley
11/20/2020 – Phillies selected the contract of LHP Bailey Falter from Lehigh Valley
11/19/2020 – C Abrahan Gutierrez assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Lakewood
11/19/2020 – C Juan Aparicio assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Lakewood
11/19/2020 – LHP Kyle Dohy assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Reading
11/19/2020 – LHP Jakob Hernandez assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Reading
11/19/2020 – 1B Austin Listi assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Reading
11/19/2020 – RHP Francisco Morales assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Clearwater
11/19/2020 – RF Jhailyn Ortiz assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Clearwater
11/19/2020 – LHP Manuel Silva assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Clearwater
11/19/2020 – LHP Jhordany Mezquita assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Lakewood
11/19/2020 – 2B Daniel Brito assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Reading
11/19/2020 – LHP Nick Fanti assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Reading
11/19/2020 – SS Nick Maton assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Reading
11/19/2020 – CF Simon Muzziotti assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Clearwater
11/19/2020 – LHP Zach Warren assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Clearwater
11/19/2020 – RHP Joel Cesar assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Reading
11/19/2020 – LHP Bailey Falter assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Reading
11/19/2020 – LHP Damon Jones assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Reading
11/19/2020 – LHP David Parkinson assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Reading
11/19/2020 – C Edgar Cabral assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Reading
11/19/2020 – C Rodolfo Duran assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Clearwater
11/19/2020 – SS Jonathan Guzman assigned to Lehigh Valley IronPigs from Clearwater

466 thoughts on “Open Discussion: Week of December 6th

  1. I am enlightened by the D Hall discussions but he is a lighter scale of Dylan Cozens. I’m reading all this positivity on Hall but don’t forget all the grief I took over the years with support of D Cozens. Hall might be El Fuego” in the Mexican League but he is also a strikeout machine, 13ks in 37 ABs. Also, only has 1 position.

    1. Denny…..Hall does have the plus power like DC…and also, FWIW, does have a different personality characteristic that distinguishes him from DC.
      And if you check his metrics thru the years from the SALLY days…..he is top ten in many offensive categories in each league, sans BA…..SALLY MVP….FSL and finally EL.
      I can see him eventually getting to the majors……if it can happen to power bat guys iike Voit, Muncy, Aquino, Aguilar and for the most part Justin Turner, at later ages….Hall could also have that opportunity presented to him

    2. I absolutely guarantee Middleton is trying to trade Wheeler. Worst owner in sports. Don’t defend him

  2. Jim … Buster Olney’s sources (plural) were high ranking executives from teams the Phillies had spoken to. According to those sources, Phillies representatives (don’t know if it’s Rice, MacPhail, or even Meddleton) told them because of financial losses, the team was taking offers on Wheeler.
    I respect your opinions (and your sources), but for me, all signs point to this being accurate. Middleton has spent the offseason crying poor. He’s also been looking to dump Jean Segura’s contract despite the fact that the Phillies have only two MIF’s on their 40 man with any MLB experience. IMO, Meddleton and/or MacPhail thought trading Wheeler would be another way of saving the club some money. I believe the blow back the team got when the story was published caused the owner to retreat … and cry fake news.

    Middleton gets no “benefit of the doubt” from me. His whole offseason has been a disaster to this point … and I’m not even holding not signing JTR against him yet (no sense bidding against yourself). The Phillies’ messaging since October has been “No money” and “Can’t hire a new FO because of pandemic”. Bryce Harper and Joe Girardi have got to be sick.

    1. Ken Rosenthal also came out as stating there were talks surrounding Wheeler (and the Phillies have gotten inquiries on Nola and Hoskins as well).

      I agree with Buster Olney and some of the NY writers but Ken Rosenthal wouldn’t report something like that without completely vetting it. I tend to trust him and Jeff Passan out of the National guys. They can be wrong but I don’t doubt they did their homework before reporting.

      1. Yeah. I read the Rosenthal article. He said nothing new. Based his belief in the Olney article on the vehemence of Middleton’s response. The article is full of opinion not fact. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just don’t peddle it to me as fact.

    2. Jeff Passan also had some thoughts on this … since it is paid content, i will summarize

      Called Middleton’s response comical

      Said either there is a big conspiracy or these talks actually happened

      3 high ranking officials on other teams confirmed for Passan that talks happened

      Says any return for Wheeler wouldn’t be worth it, so expects him to stay put

    1. Romus- I must say, I appreciate your constant positivity!

      I’m trying to be positive but with Middleton, if it smells like smoke, there’s probably fire or whatever the saying is haha

      1. Phillies84…..Phillies are on the cusp…..either soaring or flooring.

        If they can tighten up the second worst BP in MLB history to just even mediocre…..and also a defense, to also a mediocre middle of the pack….they have a legit shot at getting into the play-offs……as long as Wheeler, Nola and Eflin hold up their end of the bargain.

        1. Romus, I know your plan is McCann to replace Realmuto. Do you believe they are talking to McCann at all? And, are you ok with Segura at SS and Kingery at 2B without Didi? Or do you have more pieces in your plan to compete? Because I believe Segura is significantly worse than Didi as a defensive SS. And, we would already not be as good defensively at C without JTR.

          1. McCann….Simmons for short…..and get the BP arms like Hendriks to start.
            Segura….sell low and move somehow, if not he goes back to second.

            I do think the Dodgers would be interested Kingery for the right price….they need to replace Kiki….and Kingery’s versatility is something they may look at in a favorable way….plus his team friendly contract.
            Maybe they would give up catcher Ruiz or RHP Gray or both for him…hoping for Lux is daydreaming .

      2. It doesn’t take much to be a #5 pitcher. Criteria is: pitching at least 5 innings, win/lose same # of games, keep your ERA around 4.6 and don’t walk too many batters. What a resume you need to get this job. Many of the old pitchers in the ’60s and ’70s would be superstars and millionaires today; i.e. Kenny Brett, John Boozer, Ray Culp, Randy Lerch, Kenny Reynolds, Darrell Brandon, etc. So different are the times.

    2. Lozano was the lone signee in the 2018-2019 period but we actually signed 4 kids in the 2019-2020 period. Erubiel Armenta, Jared Loyo, Pedro Reyes, Edgar Zuniga. All pitchers. MLB and the Mexican League have a new agreement on signing bonuses that has opened the door a little more where previously most of the bonus went to the Mexican team and not the player.

    3. The Phillies have 8 Mexican players in the organization, 7 on GCL and DSL rosters.
      Arano, Victor (RHP) – PHI
      Urias, Manuel (RHP) – GCE
      Lozano, Fernando (RHP) – GCW
      Armenta, Erubiel (LHP) – DSR
      Loyo, Jared (LHP) – DSR
      Reyes, Pedro (RHP) – DSR
      Morales, Efrain (RHP) – DSW
      Zuniga, Edgar (RHP) – DSW

      1. Okay…thanks Jim…looks like the Phillies are going to go there more often now.
        Dodgers and Padres seem to have a better grip and hold on that talent in the past.

  3. Rule 5 Thursday…two Dodgers….RHP Brett deGeus (27th in LAD system) and 2nd Omar Estevez (21st in LAD system) and Yankee RHP Trevor Stephan (24th in NYY system) are players that could be gone early.

  4. I like to think that I have been on to the click game for many years. I watch a lot of MLB network and have always took guys like Sherman and Heyman for what they are which is speculation providers. Rosenthal and Verducci to a lesser degree.

    Speculation for better or worse is content. It gets clicks and it fills up air time. No matter how ridiculous, true/untrue it does get many fans engaged and that basically is the end game.

    Case in point is I was pretty much unplugged this weekend but I had several guys from my baseball orbit texting me asking if I heard about Wheeler.

    To which I replied good everyone except Bohm should be available for the right price LOL.

    1. DMAR…I think Olney was canvassing thru blogs….and read your post a few weeks ago about trading Nola and saw all the responses,….and thought , hey I will just substituted Wheeler for Nola and get a lot of clicks.

  5. Someone intelligent once said that “nature abhors a vacuum.” So, when John Middleton and the Phillies are doing nothing, and the only information from the FO and Ownership is how much money was lost, and to expect nothing from them, then writers and analysts get to speculate, and fill the void with stories like the one Olney posted. It seemed believable because many of us have lost confidence in Middleton, and have never liked MacPhail. Middleton allowed this to start last off season, well before the pandemic, when he decreed that the LT was a de facto Salary Cap. So, until they hire a new POBO, and actually do something that seems productive towards making the team competitive, this won’t be the last story we read about no one wants to come here, and the team is punting 2021.

  6. It could very well be that Rice and Klentak have been talking to other GMs, and Wheeler was mentioned, as was Nola and Hoskins and probably Bohm, and Rice/Klentak said “we will take whatever is offered back to Mr. Middleton and Mr. MacPhail.” That then constitutes “listening to offers”. The point remains, that unless and until Middleton hires a real person to move this team forward, and does something, anything, that indicates the 2021 season has any hope, then these stories will continue. There is a legitimate question that I have, and clearly others have, as to whether Middleton intends to wait until next year to hire someone, and is, in fact, not going to attempt to compete in 2021.

  7. Middleton is the owner. He signs off on large contracts . Maybe somebody recommended he not sign May for whatever reason but the buck stops with Middleton. I also refuse to give Middleton the benefit of the doubt. If he wanted May then May would be signed.

    Romus, you are dreaming about Hall. He is a plodder and one of the slowest runners I have ever seen in a baseball uniform excluding pitchers. He would make Hoskins look like a gold glove leftfielder.

    1. NL……I read this somewhere and apologize as I don’t have the source. Maybe someone else does. What I remember is that no contract was offered to be signed and no physical was taken. That mutual interest never developed to the point that negotiations began. Maybe Jim has more on this.

      1. Even if the Phillies had interest in May (and they should have), my guess is they probably asked him to wait for a couple of months until they had a clearer picture of what the 2021 season was going to look like (as far as COVID restrictions). That may sound cray-cray, but this has been the team’s theme since the season ended.
        I expect them to pick a player (probably pitcher or MIF) in the rule 5 draft this week, and then go silent until maybe February when guys left on the FA market begin to settle for lesser contracts.
        And … another thing … the faster Middleton hires a new POBO/GM, the better. This gang who can’t shoot straight is driving this car into a ditch. They need a credible leader to instill some confidence from fans, media, players, and manager/coaches.

        1. “They need a credible leader to instill some confidence…”,
          …yes, someone like rocco. 😉

      2. Skeet, don’t believe anything until it happens. It certainly seems like many sources are corroborating the same story that May was never close to being a Phillie. Until a player is signed and passes their physical, assume it is a lie. Too many people hide under “sources.”

      3. Skeet, that’s kinda like what I said above, almost. No offer, no physical. The decision to sign May was vetoed by a group between the GM and the owner.

  8. At least, Hinkie, they can then formulate a plan based on the new guy. And, communicate that plan. Most of us are resigned to losing Realmuto, some think that is a good idea, if they use the money to improve elsewhere. Whatever your position, we all acknowledge that there needs to be a better plan than Klentak and Rice hanging out, and MacPhail still here. If Byrnes or Hill comes in, and lays out a vision that might not include a really competitive team in 2021, we can, to a degree, live with that. But what there is now, with this group still in place, and no hope for 2021, is not a smart business move, let alone baseball one.

    1. Matt … I’ve posted this a few times over the past couple of weeks: John Middleton has reached the proverbial fork in the road. He’s got to decide (like now) if he’s going to push forward or retreat. He absolutely cannot take the middle ground. Reducing the club’s payroll by 45 million dollars while still claiming you’re “in it to win it” is irrational, and is wasting another prime season from Harper, Wheeler, Nola, and Realmuto (if he’s re-signed). The only way Middleton can make up ground (or keep pace at this point) with the Braves and Mets is to spend money.
      If Middleton doesn’t want to spend, then … yes … sell Wheeler, sell Nola, sell Eflin, sell Hoskins, and try to unload Harper’s contract, even if it means eating some serious money. Then start another rebuild with a new competent, aggressive FO.

  9. Dick Allen RIP. Tough year. He was my first favorite Phillie. I wish they tracked exit speed then. His would have been sick.

    1. Do not understand why he is not inducted in the Hall of Fame… Harold Baines got in …..58bWAR (Allen) vs 38bWAR (Baines).
      Allen led his league or the MLB in his life time in 17 positive offensive metrics over 15 years….Baines led the league once in SLG over his 22 years..

    2. He was really a nice guy, I used to sit with him at otb on packer ave, He would drink his Heinekens, and we would talk horses, Not much about baseball, He has family who trained horses, He had a love for the sport like me,

      1. rocco…he sure did like the horses.
        Didn’t he own a few early on and I think they did race in some of the local tracks?

        1. Didn’t he and the late Pirate manager Chuck Tanner co-own a few race horses back in the 70s?

          1. ….from their White Sox days together in the early 70s (Tanner was ChiSox skipper from ’70-’75, passed away in 2011)

          2. He owned horses at Arlington park in Chicago, where he got his brother into training horses, Hank i think was his name

    3. So sad, passing before HOF induction. He deserved it more than at least 10% of those already in. Now that’s injustice.

  10. I was witness to quite a few of his monster HRs, swinging that 40 oz bat, and smashing balls out of Connie Mack Stadium. He belongs in the HOF, RIP

    1. Amen to that. He wasn’t just strong though. What a base runner. He had so many doubles and triples plus he had steals early in his career too. And yes, he hit some insane bombs with that massive club.

  11. Dick Allen passing is just the xxxxx. Sorry I know we keep it clean here language wise but this bums me out.

      1. Ian Hamilton – As a minor leaguer he is a back end of bullpen pitcher/closer. Also keeps his walks down and on numerous occasions threw more than just an inning. Interesting indeed, he will get thrown in the mix.

  12. RIP Mr. Allen ……I would think you will join the HOF this summer or whenever they can hold a vote – you deserve it.

  13. Any thoughts on Ha-Seong Kim being posted today? Plays SS but also can play 3rd & 2nd and is only 25 years old for this next season. MLB prediction was 5 years $40mil. Has power and walks almost the same amount as he strikes out, plus hitting for average with good OB% (alibi in Japan). Moving Segura’s contract would likely be needed, but IMO it is better to have a SS play SS then to fit a good second baseman in at SS.

  14. Gotta say I believe the sources saying the Phillies were taking offers . . . Where there’s smoke there’s fire. Multiple outlets who are well respected and have more connections than anyone who posts here verified it even when our FO denies it. This just seems par for the course for the Phillies these days.
    And I don’t wanna hear conspiracies theories about other teams trying to divide the Phillies so other players are more likely to sign elsewhere or current players ask for trades.
    Believe the rumors 100%. And I hate it.

  15. I fully expect to claim someone in Thursday’s Rule V draft. There are a couple of Pitchers who are worth a shot. How many 40 Man spots do we have open?

    1. The Phillies should be picking as high as 6th. Last week, I posted six rule 5 eligible pitchers the Phillies could draft Thursday:

      !. Alex Speas RHP Rangers
      2. Brendon Little LHP Cubs
      3. Trevor Stephan RHP NYY
      4. Brett de Geus RHP LAD
      5. Melvin Jimenez RHP LAD
      6. Riley Pint RHP Rockies

      1. Hinkie; am I correct if you select a Rule 5 guy he has to be put on both the 40-man roster and the major league team?

        1. I am not Hinkie, Hawkeye, but he has to be kept on the Major League roster all season, or offered back to the team he came from for half the acquisition price, $25,000. Just being on the 40 Man is not sufficient

        2. Yes. He immediately gets added to your 40-man roster, and he must stay on the major league roster for the entire season in order to keep him. The Phillies had the 13th worst record this season so they are in line to draft 13th. However (last time I checked) only five of the 12 teams in front of the Phillies had open spots on their 40 man. That’s why I believe the Phillies will pick 6th on Thursday.

        3. Rule 5 trivia question.

          Phillies picked a catcher from the Braves in Rule 5, that player was a starting catcher on the Phillies on their drive for a pennant and then played in 2 World Series for one team and was injured so he could not play on that team’s World Series Team. Who was he?

          Hint; one of his back-up catchers was a Phillies Manager and was a coach on the Braves World Series Team.

            1. Right you are. Great guess, a lower .200 hitter but a good defensive catcher. Prime for the ’60s.

              My best friend moved to mid-state NY and I move to NC, I am the smarter of the 2, many years ago. For his Christmas present, in honor of Richie Allen’s passing yesterday, I started a research project of the 1964 Phillies and I started today, texting him a short bio on each member of that team each day. Clay was #1, tomorrow is Gus Triandos, then Pat Corrales. Catchers first. Corrales was the hint of the Clay question, he was Phillies Manager in 1982 and 1983, finished 2nd in 82 and was in 1st place when he was replaced mid-year. He was a Braves’ coach from 1990 to 2006.

      2. Hinkie:
        I would also add two more RHPs to your list….reliever types more than likely.
        – Jose Alberto Rivera…from the Astros
        – Paul Campbell from the Rays.

  16. During the ’60s the Phillies had a hitting nucleus of Allen, Callison, Gonzalez and Alex Johnson with a pitching staff of Bunning- Short-Jenkins- Seaver- Wise. Starting 5. Not trading Jenkins and if they were lucky in Seaver lottery. Indians, Mets and Phillies were 3 teams in hat to select Seaver from draft. Could have had 5 – 20 game winners.

  17. As an 8 year old, I saw Richie Allen play a double header against Houston in Connie Mack Stadium. He and Jimmy “Toy Cannon” Wynn put on a batting practice and game display that I still rate as my favorite Day at a baseball game, RIP Richie RIP

  18. Zolecki and 3 other team beat writers were on the MLB network last night. They went round robin asking each beat writer who they thought their teams major sign was going to be. The Mets guy went JT. The Yanks guy went LaMahieu

    Zolecki said “oh my Phillies fans aren’t going to like this but Brad Hand” LOL

  19. A lot of pessimism about our squad, and not just from this site. And, rightfully so. I feel every bit of criticism is warranted, and Middleton has only himself to blame. I am hoping to get some news re: a new POBO after the second interviews this week. A story in MLBTR said that we never engaged with Morton, Smyly or May, but also said “2 of the 3, Smyly and Morton previously pitched for the Phillies.” Actually, all 3 did. And, jim has told us that we did, indeed, engage with May. That fell through for whatever reason, probably $.

    1. Hi Matt, I agree and I think it’s widely known that the long term problems with a club always reflect the ownership. Middle coined it “Stupid Money”.
      I think anyone, with me as a good example can see the needs of this team and it will be interesting to see how the Phils address them. From my perspective;

      1) Catcher – has been talked about to death. Fact is if they don’t get a good backstop to call pitches not much else is going to be successful towards a winning season.
      2) Another closer and setup guy who can actually win games regularly. Nough said
      3) A good defensive short stop with at least some hit tools.
      4) Another decent starting pitcher who can win more then lose.
      5) CF

      I think some one from our or can step in for either #5 SP (some combo of Howard and VV). And maybe someone could surprise and finally step up in CF. But to count on either would be the definition of insanity.

  20. Could we be saving our money for a run at Tomoyuki Sugano? Break our streak of never being in on Japanese Players? Hinkie has Iron Chef Morimoto on speed dial.

    1. Good luck to Sam McW.
      Junking his two-seamer may have made a difference for him and others, especially Charlie. Morton.
      Strange….Eflin went back to it….if you have an exceptional one, like the article said, use it, otherwise junk it, with hitters now approaching launch angle and EV as their concerns a poor 2-seamer just gets hammered..

  21. Just thinking about the Phillies BP, and sensible/cost effective ways to improve it.
    The team may have to rely on its’ young arms to provide the velo. Connor Brogdon and JoJo Romero were throwing in the upper 90’s this season. I just saw some video of Damon Jones working out and throwing heat. If Victor Arano is healthy, he’s another guy who can throw 96-97.
    There are a couple of FA arms available who shouldn’t cost much, and who would add different looks, and veteran leadership: Darren O’Day (RH) and Chasen Shreve (LH). O’Day is 38 YO, but the side-arm thrower has been consistently good throughout his mid and now late 30’s. In Atlanta the past two seasons, O’Day has registered 11.6 K/9, 2.5 BB/9, 0.785 WHIP, 2.60 FIP. Shreve had a very good 2020 for the Mets. His “splitter” helped him to a 12.2 K/9, 4.5 BB/9, 1.160 WHIP, 3.99 FIP line. Joe Girardi is very familiar with both guys. Shreve pitched for him in NY. O’Day pitched against him an awful lot while a member of the O’s.

    1. It was/is a great story. As I read it, I thought about two things. First, how likely would it be that the Phillies would develop this type of player as the Rays did? At least through the recent past, I would say extremely unlikely. We don’t know if the Driveline influence will change that going forward, however. The second question is, how likely would it be that the Phillies would jump ahead of the curve and sign this guy since he developed? Again, I would say it’s extremely unlikely and unless and until we find a new Pres or GM who is good at spotting under-the-radar value, this pattern of sitting on their hands is going to continue.

      And someone here mentioned a Japanese player. Do we think the Phillies would be in on that type of a bargain? No way – they would view it as being far too risky.

      Frankly, it’s depressing.

  22. Royals handing out money and Phillies sitting on their hands complaining about money.

    Let that sink in

    1. Not sure that was a wise investment on their part……he will draw walks for sure.
      This year was a letdown for him.
      ….. hit just .199 …..699 OPS …..but did lead the AL in walks with 47 walks and a decent .349 OBP.
      Similar metric approach when a Phillie

        1. Truthfully…if the Phillies invested in a soon to be 35- year old player who is trending down, for two more years @ $17M…..how would you feel about that?
          I really do not think that moves the needle for any fans in Kansas City.
          It may feel a hole for them at first base…but more than likely he is a placeholder for a prospect and probably a trade chip come July of ’21 or ’22.

        2. With the way they have thrown money around the past few years with FA’s, I’d rather they do nothing they overpay guys like Jake, Cutch, Sanatna, etc…

          Clearly they don’t have a good eye for talent as evidenced by the players they have acquired. Granted I don’t know who is calling the shots now the the Princeton kid has been sent to his room.

      1. Santana’s signing was interesting because of the payment plan – 7 million in ’21 ; 10+ million in ’22. I guess we are getting a sign that all these contracts could all be back end loaded. So pay JT 5 million in 2021 ; 35 million in 2022 when the fans come back ??

        1. I don’t know if it would be that drastic but that’s what I’d look to do if I were the Phillies. Especially with McCutchen and Herrera coming off the books next year.

  23. Not that I wanted Santana, Romus, and I don’t want them to be dumb, but do you get any sense that there is a plan, other than to do nothing until whenever? With the thought that ST may be delayed a month, it could be March and guys will still be out there, not signed. So, is the plan to wait and see who will Pitch for the league minimum, or is there some other plan in place? Or, is there really a lot going on, but they have found a way to keep it all secret? Are they secretly negotiating a trade for Josh Hader, and have offers out for Hendriks and other Pitchers? I don’t know, but I find it hard to believe that they are doing things, but Agents and other teams have agreed to keep quiet, only about us.

    1. matt13…..is there a plan?
      I believe there is …how good is it, remains to be seen,
      I do think the BP, after the JTR issue is resolved, is their focus and objective.
      I am confident they will get an arm (s)…there are plenty out there….but how good, just who knows with relievers.
      Then there is the common occurrence these last three years….they can go out and sign a Hendriks and then he breaks down , like Hunter, Neshek, Robertson and of course the Phillies own,Seranthony.

      1. Yes,…………the plan! Send the Mayor (“Stogie”) on an extended vacation, all we need is his electronic signature. He and the Buck brothers can play bocce ball in Jamaica. Send the old sheriff to the “Happy Days Sr. retirement Center.

        Hire a new Sheriff and Deputy capable of shooting straight, making offers that can’t be refused and keeping the town and suburbs in order. Assign the cereal twins (Rice Krispie and Special K) and have them develop an analytic model of determining the probability of putting 100 monkeys in a room with typewriters and paper, closing the door and coming back to a complete unabridged dictionary. Duration of model TBD by success of experiment or expiration of their current contracts.🤓

  24. While the market seems to be thawing some – especially in Chisox land – I still think there are so many available players + the international signees that there is little rush to sign anybody just yet. There are so many bullpen pitchers out there the Phillies could find probably 10 pitchers who would improve their pen and pay no more than 3 million for any one of them ? It would be comforting to see something done but I can understand why nothing is happening – not saying its right, just predictable right now given no management et al.

  25. Giving sir ant roughly 1 million to rehab…how gross. It will be like 3 years since he’s pitched. Guy threw like a half season worth if decent mid/lateish relief innings. What a joke. Almost as bad as giving soft tossing Vinny V 4 million….we are in such a bad spot. So depressing:(

    1. I don’t see it as gross, it’s worth the risk to see if he can get back to full form, great FB and nasty slider, it’s not my money so I don’t really care. If he can recover then we got a nice arm for the pen for a few years hopefully.

  26. Just hire Michael Hill, and get on with the business of building the team.

  27. Remember when Cliff Lee snubbed the Yankees to take less money to pitch for the Phils? Remember when Roy Halladay all but demanded a trade to the Phillies? Can you believe how this organization has been completely decimated in less than 10 years? From a destination spot to a roadside rest stop that hasnt been cleaned in 3 weeks…

  28. Future Headlines:

    1. Phillies hire Bryan Colangelo’s wife as new POBO
    2. Phillies name Sean Rodriguez opening day starter
    3. Phillies owner John Middleton granted trademark for new team-building approach called Brokeball.

  29. What if the Phillies held a job fair and nobody showed? That’s what this appears to be…a few big names came just for recon purposes. 80 layoffs later, “Nothing here I wanna be part of. See ya…”

    1. I think what Middleton must be sharing with these guys is a mediocre roster, a weak farm system, and a financial projection that leaves them very little room to improve the club, and with a meddling owner as a cherry on top. Not an attractive proposition.

      1. TBH … I was never high on Byrnes, anyway. Thad Levine would have been an excellent hire. I still like Hill. He’s a smart and experienced exec with a history of unearthing high ceiling prep prospects and developing them into MLB all-stars. He just hasn’t been able to hold on to them because he’s worked for owners who spend no money.

        1. I just don’t believe GMs unearth high ceiling prep prospects. In that corner of GMing they are just lucky or unlucky based on their area scouts.

          Sure once an area scout puts his stamp on a guy the GM may look at some film even give a kid a call or visit. He may concur with his scouts opinion and be the final decision maker.

          I like Michael I’ve seen him interviewed several times and seen him participate in a GM roundtable hosted by Verducci. I’d grade him out better than Klentak of course but he is only going to be as good as the people he can bring in to push good information up the ladder.

          And be left alone to do his job with almost full autonomy.

          1. DMAR … maybe I should have stated he ran an organization that “unearthed high ceiling prep prospects”. Bottom line – Hill was responsible for Baseball Operations. He put together the staffs who found, drafted, and developed prep and JUCO players who turned into All-Stars (Giancarlo Stanton, Steve Cishek, Brad Hand, Christian Yelich, JT Realmuto, Jose Fernandez, Josh Naylor, and Chris Paddack).
            And 100% agree that Middleton needs to give Hill full autonomy.

        2. Based on what I’ve heard, it seems Hill is in the higher grade of available President prospects. If they hired him, I would have a very open mind. Let’s just get Andy “if we don’t make the playoffs, we don’t make the playoffs” [did he really say that in Philadelphia? C’mon!] MacPhail era over with. Just a disastrous hire.

  30. Romus, just 2 things, the Mets have Sandy Alderson, head and shoulders above Andy MacPhail, and they signed Trevor May, adding a very good arm to a BP that was already miles ahead of us. So, even at a slow pace, we are behind them. Jayson Stark is a terrific writer, and as plugged in as anyone. The key to what he posted that Hinkie shared is “timetable remains unclear.” I have surmised that they are doing nothing needle moving this off season, unless we count going backwards as moving the needle. He cannot lie to these folks he is interviewing, so when they hear that there is no money to be spent, and see where we are, why leave a team like the Dodgers to come here with one arm tied behind your back? Why leave a spot in Minnesota that Levine was comfortable with to come here and be destined to fail? MacPhail didn’t lie when he said it was unfair to bring someone in and not give them the tools to succeed. I think he is terrible at his job, but I never called him dishonest. I know you want to feel some optimism, Romus, but every day looks bleaker.

    1. matt13……if these two things happen…..team re-signing JTR, and signing Liam Hendriks….will this make the holiday season that much more enjoyable?

      1. Romus … I gotta’ give you the trophy for the most optimistic Phillies fan. You’re cardboard cutout deserves another season in a prime seat behind home plate! 🙂

        Seriously though … In order for the Phillies to have a realistic shot at a WC (no chance they beat out the Braves for the division), Middleton has got to hire a competent POBO/GM and (more importantly) quit the “Can you spare a dime?” act, and spend up to the cap.

        BTW … I do think there’s a good chance they re-sign JTR. But, IMO, I think they’re more likely to spend smaller amounts on multiple relievers than make one big splash FA acquisition (like Hendricks).

  31. This offseason has made me question so many things about the organization that I’ve always assumed or taken for granted.

    Like others, for years, I’ve blamed Dave Montgomery, the faceless previous ownership group and those Dave hired for the team’s problems and general approach. Again like others, I viewed Middleton as a person who wanted change, was willing to shake things up and wanted to spend money. I’m not sure I quite saw him as cutting edge, but I thought he wanted to be and was paving a new path for the team.

    This year has challenged those assumptions. I now fully believe that Middleton has been among the team’s biggest problems. Yes, at times, he is willing to spend money. Also, I think, behind the scenes, he is truly a decent person – and it’s not irrelevant because I do think they generally treat their employees well. But he has exercised very poor judgment in choosing leadership. MacPhail and Klentak were quite bad – so bad, that the team is now the most famous example of a failed rebuild and if you don’t believe me, read all about it on ESPN.com – OUCH!!! He also forced the team to expend resources at the wrong time. He decided, hell or high water, that the rebuild should end and the team should be ready to complete by 2019. So, rather than be smart about it and acknowledging that the team was not ready to compete in 2019, MIddleton forced the issue prematurely and that has now come to further impair the team’s path moving forward. Now, Middleton is throwing gas on the pandemic fire by failing to secure new management in a timely way (I guess that could change, who knows?) and by doing such short-sighted things as firing scouts while at the same time complaining that the team’s biggest failing is its inability to spot and develop talent.

    Right now, this is a mess and Middleton is perhaps the biggest reason that it is.

  32. Would you do this ? Trade Segura to Toronto (the destination for all players this offseason) for a prospect or 2 – and then go out and sign Gold Glove Cesar Hernandez to play 2b for 5/6 mill ? It saves you 7 or 8 million $ ! Comments, including rocco’s ?

      1. If the Phillies want to trade Segura, they may have to absorb some of his contract. If I’m another team, I don’t want to pay him more than about $10m a year, max, let along give up valuable assets for him.

        1. A return of Segura maybe another overpaid player/contract (likely less than Segura’s) but for a position the team is looking for such as a RP, SP, OF, or even a SS.

          1. Canvassing the Jays roster……that player would probably be RHP 34-year old Tanner Roark who has one year left @$12M
            With them already having Walker and now Ray again, and making room soon for Pearson and/or Richardson….Roark may be a player they want to move…..but they have to have a steep need for Segura or else why make the trade.

  33. Romus, I would be very happy with JTR and Hendriks, but I don’t feel any optimism. And, no thanks on Cesar. I am fine with moving Segura, but we need a replacement SS, not 2B. Kingery can get another shot, IMO to play 2B. Simmons for a year works. I feel like they will go with the 3 or 4 bargain basement RPs, after seeing who is left in March.

    1. What have you seen in Kingery that leads you to be optimist? Hernandez is above and beyond a better player, and that’s even on defense. Matter of fact, I don’t know that Kingery does anything better than CH. I’m good with Kingery as a guy who can spell just about every position but as a full time starter? Not over Hernandez, if it was possible to bring him back (i’ve always been on the CH bandwagon tho, so maybe i’m bias but I feel like numbers back me up).

    1. Is that a done deal Mark I can’t find it reported anywhere…

      Only thing I found is that its close

    2. Look, I don’t think McCann is as good as Realmuto, but depending on the amount paid, this may be a much better signing. I’d rather pay 60-70% of Realmuto’s salary and get 90% of the player than overpay Realmuto and leave the team with little room to fill other gaping holes. Just saying.

      1. Agreed agreed and agree some more Catch

        It’s such a no brainer that its exactly why JM won’t allow it to happen

        1. And it’s not just the salary, it’s the years. If they go more than 4 years, you are looking at another contract where the team could eat huge amounts over the last few contract years. Catchers tend to fall off a cliff statistically after about age 33 and when I say fall off a cliff, I mean it, take a look at Buster Posey’s numbers and he’s not alone. And moving him to first base is not a good solution either. His current numbers make him like a 1 WAR player at first and by the time he needs to move positions, I doubt he’ll be the hitter he is now. Again, just saying.

          1. If JTR is dead set on setting the AAV bar for catchers (which may be soon beyond his market), I would (or Middleton should) offer him 4/$100M with perhaps a vesting 5th year option. Any more than that from another club would surprise me under the current market climate.

            1. Jays are in on him also….maybe Nats, Red Sox or Astros but these three have holes to fill before catching.
              Cannot see anyone else…..contenders that is.
              I think that is reasonable $100M/4yrs plus, 5th vested.

          2. I think the right deal for JT is 4/$92 with an option for a 5th year. If someone wants to come in and go 5/$125 or higher let them do it…

            If the McCann deal gets done I’d guess its in the 4/$48 range

            1. My odds on who signs JTR:
              Phillies 2-1
              Cardinals (if there’s a mystery team…) 5-1
              Blue Jays 6-1
              Nationals (all noise from their peanut gallery) 10-1

  34. So there won’t be a DH in the NL in 2021 because the MLBPA didn’t feel they were getting enough in return in comparison to the owners having an extra round of playoffs? Are you kidding me… The owners AND the player financially benefit from the extra money the playoffs generated and now there are about 15-20 players who will be hurt by this decision. Who does the MLBPA represent again? Also does anyone cares about the fans? I think overwhelmingly fans felt that first round of the baseball playoffs had a March Madness feel which God knows the MLB could use..I tend to side with the players on issues but unless I misunderstood why the talks failed this is a major screw-up by the MLBPA..

    1. Hawkeye, I agree. I usually always side with the players, but this is dumb. First, the expanded Playoffs helped everyone involved with Baseball. The DH benefits actual players.

    2. ” there are about 15-20 players who will be hurt by this decision.”……yes salary
      probably, however, those spots are not going away, ilo of a $10M AAV plus big bat DH player filling it….it will be a $1M AAV 25th man/reliever filling it.

  35. Romus – Keep your paws away from Hinkie’s sister-in-law. No fake yawn, stretch your arms, and put one around her shoulder. Even as a cardboard cut-out figure.

    At least the Mets won’t sign JTR. Wouldn’t it be a kicker if he signs with the Braves (doubtful) or the Nationals (very possible)?

    1. Rizzo has never spent big on a catcher I’d be very surprised if he ended up there. That said I’m sure Rizzo is happy to drive up the price if he can.

      Rizzo has a DNA profile and its to spend on pitching. I mean he let BH walk and he let Rendon walk. He won a WS with 2 catchers making less combined that what JT will cost in a single season.

    1. Yes…McCann and probably Bauer also….they both go back to their HS days in southern California.
      That was what I wanted months ago….McCann, Bauer and would have taken Simmons for short.

  36. Another trivia question:

    What former Phillies catcher and manager was traded for an HOF catcher? Bonus points; who was the HOF Catcher.

    1. Right you are!

      Uecker said his best experience playing for the Phillies was watching a fight in the second deck and one of the participants falling out of it.

    1. You get the 2nd place prize for being 2nd in answering. 2 week vacation in Baltimore. 1st place got 1 week.

  37. I knew this for a couple of reasons…but mainly because you said you were doing bios on all 39 of the 1964 Phillies and started with catchers. First was Dalrymple, yesterday was Triandos, today had to be Corrales, who was catcher #3.

    By the way, the 1964 Phils are my favorite all time team and if you need any tidbits about that season I can probably help you out. I was a tiny tike then but remember almost everything about that season as it was my very first as a phan and gosh, how I loved that team.

    As a side note, the Phils used 4 catchers that year….Cookie Rojas caught the bottom of the ninth inning in a tight 4-3 win in Cincinnati as Dalrymple had been pinch run for in the top of the 9th and Triandos was unavailable. Rojas did a good job in what was then a very key win. Callison hit a 3 run HR in the top of the 9th to give the Phils a 4-2 lead after they had blown the first game of the doubleheader 7-4 and the win kept them in 1st place at the time.

    1. Wow that is a great memory of Cookie. From the days of Wine and Rojas. You got the order of my catchers. Appreciate all info. Tomorrow WILL be Corrales and then Herrnstein at 1b on Friday, who was involved in one of the worst trades in Phillies history.

      BTW, my friend really is appreciating my gift and he responded to Dalrymple with, “did you ever see a left handed batter ground out to second base as much as him?”.

  38. CD – I started following the Phillies from New Haven after reading “View From The Dugout” in 1963. The ’64 year was heartbreaking but what I remember vividly was the final weekend of the 1965 season when the Phillies played the Mets.

    It was a Saturday evening double header and in the second game Chris Short pitched fifteen innings (that’s right – FIFTEEN) in a game that was called after the 18th inning in a scoreless tie. Short struck out 18 batters.

    The game lasted 4:30 minutes and get this, it was rescheduled from the beginning as part of another double header the next day, a Sunday, the last day of the season. The Phils won all 3 games. Any one else remember that?

  39. ciada..oh, I not only remember that game by Short, who dueled a non de-script hurler named Rob Gardner through 15 scoreless innings but I remember the entire 4 game series! Why was it so significant? Here’s why!

    Short hurled 15 innings of the 18 inning 0-0 tie in the 2nd game of the DHer after Jim Bunning won the first game 6-0. So the Mets went scoreless through 27 innings on that Saturday night. Sunday, the final day of the season saw the Phils and Mets play another DHer and in the opener Ray Culp won 3-1 and the run was unearned. So now the Mets had gone 36 innings without scoring an earned run.

    In the nightcap, the game went 13 innings and the Phils won 3-1 with starter Larry Jackson finally surrendering an earned run in the 7th inning. Phils scored two in the 13th to win the game and sweep the series. That win was significant for a couple of reasons…one, Bill Sorrell hit his only home run as a Phillie to win the game in the 13th and the Phils winning pitcher was non other than Ferguson Jenkins, who tossed 4 scoreless innings. Losing pitcher Jack Fisher went the entire 13 innings to suffer his 24th loss and in the opener little Alvin Jackson lost his 20th game.

    So…in 49 innings covering 4 games the Phils, with Bunning, Short, Gary Wagner, Jack Baldschun, Ray Culp, Larry Jackson and Ferguson Jenkins hurling gave up 1 earned run in 49 innings!

    1. I really did not start following the Phils until the 70’s shortly after Carlton was traded to us. I did however go to a few games in the 60’s with my older brother and dad. I remember Chris Short, who unfortunately hung in to long, Jim Bunning, Rick Wise, and Dick Allen. Probably nothing unusual but I remember Allen crushing baseballs as the crowd ooohed and aaahhed as they rise to their feet. Unfortunately I only saw the trajectory of the ball since I was little and everyone stood and all I saw was backs, even standing in the bench seats.
      Next thing I saw when people sat down was people pointing to where the ball went and discussion around his strength.

      1. My former sister-in-law was Chris Short’s nurse while he was in the ICU at Christiana Hospital after his stroke It was so sad hearing about that at the time .

        1. So young. I don’t think he followed a good exercise and nutritional routine. Otherwise he would have been our 1st Carlton or Carlton would have been the second coming of Chris Short.

  40. Denny…since you are doing John Herrnstein tomorrow, here is a trivia item about him that he probably wouldn’t want to talk about but he mentioned it frequently at the teams 25 year reunion in 1989. Herrnstein came up no less than 4 times in 4 of the 10 game losing streak late in each game [8th inning or later] with a chance to either tie or win the game and failed each time.

    Perhaps most damaging was his at bat in the 9th inning of the first game of the losing streak, the 1-0 loss when Chico Ruiz stole home. Wes Covington led off the bottom of the 9th with double off the scoreboard in right field, a near home run. Herrnstein was the next hitter and not only failed to bunt the runner over to 3rd base but popped out to shortstop, keeping the runner at 2nd base. He would have scored on Dalrymple’s ground out into the hole between first and second had he been moved to 3rd base. Taylor walked but Amaro struck out and John Tsitouris had his shutout and the start of what would be the worst collapse in baseball history, a 10 game losing streak.

    Ironically on the final game of the season the Phils battered Tsitouris 10-0 behind Bunning and of course Phillie phans like me pondered why the Phils couldn’t have just gotten a few of those runs when it mattered the most…on Sept 21, 1964!

    1. Wow! These are fantastic facts that will be communicated. He was a big stiff and once again Clay Dalrymple grounds out to second. I wish Charlie Maual was the manager of that team. We might have had multiple championships with the other talent we had and also should have used, i.e. Fergie, Wise, Allen, Callison, etc.

  41. Great stuff Denny, I have told you guys before that the first team that I followed was the ‘61 Phil’s. One of the all time bad teams. 1964 was so exciting, of course, until it was a disaster. I remember Johnny Callison’s HR in the All Sat game and could never figure out why, with the Pitching issues, and Bunning and Short going so much, why Mauch never trusted Ray Culp.

      1. Johnny C hit that homer put his head down, ran fast around the bases into the dugout. No bat flip. No slow trot. No dance down the 3rd base line and jump on home plate. Then no chest bumps at home. I know it was the ’60s but JC was class snd was humble.

      1. Why did he pitch Culp on August 22 and then again on August 24? Also in June, Culp pitched 4 games in 20 days. What was Mauch thinking? The little General was more like the little @#$$//.

        1. Denny…as you can see….Culp was not starting at that point.
          His last four starts he gave up 23 hits and 8 walks in 20 innings…Phillies did win those games in spite of his poor pitching.
          Only he knows if he tired or was injured..

  42. Hey guys if the Phils were hearing offers on Hoskins and Nola as I read in the athletic, I took on Jim’s advice on subscription.

    And I think we could get a king’s random if we were to trade Nola, prospect wise I find it interesting.

    1. Considering all the pitching prospects the Phils failed on in the last decade, why would anyone want to trade a known quantity for an unknown?

    2. If they took an offer from the Dodgers…….it would take Lux, Chooch.2, May and Bobby Miller for good measure minimum
      San Diego….would only move him for Gore, Abrams and Weathers and their CBA pick.
      if I were the PoBO

      1. Any trade of Nola or Wheeler would likely equal 2 top can’t miss prospects or budding MLB players plus 2 other good prospects. Hoskins and Eflin would likely be at least 1 top prospect/mlb young player plus prospects

  43. Looks like Phillies picking 11th in tomorrow’s Rule 5.
    Assume Tigers and DBacks will stay with their current 40….unless they make a trade tonight.

    Rule 5 Draft order
    A team can only select a player if it has space on its 40-man roster.
    1. Pirates (38)
    2. Rangers (38)
    3. Tigers (40)
    4. Red Sox (39)
    5. Orioles (38)
    6. D-backs (40)
    7. Royals (36)
    8. Rockies (38)
    9. Angels (34)
    10. Mets (34)
    11. Nationals (33)
    12. Mariners (39)
    13. Phillies (37)

      1. MLB.com should have it…..or MLB Network:
        https://www.mlb.com/network

        It use to start 9AM local time where ever the meetings were held…..and within 45 minute everyone had their bags in the conference room, grabbed them, and started running to the airport to catch their flights home.
        But it is virtual so you probably need to check the MLB.com site.

        1. Thank you for the link. I see it is at noon Eastern time. Streaming live. I think minor league draft is afterward.

      1. Jim…I do not know the rules like I use to since they seem to change often anymore…..maybe you are correct.

  44. As expected the Phillies four affliates:

    AAA: Lehigh Valley IronPigs
    AA: Reading Fightin Phils
    A+: Jersey Shore BlueClaws
    A: Clearwater Threshers

    ….wonder about the DSL team (s) and also GCL

  45. Denny and Romus…I think I can answer your Ray Culp questions. Culp began the ’64 season in the rotation, along with Bennett, Bunning and Mahaffey. Short started the season in the bullpen. He started the season at 1-5 and was moved to the bullpen till June 14 when won his 2nd game of the season and between June 14-July 22 he went 7-2, an incredible 7 wins in a 40 game stretch, He was brilliant during this period, even tossing a 1 hitter against the Cubs.

    However, there were two things about Gene Mauch and his pitchers. One, there were certain hitters that he believed should NEVER beat you and 3 of them were Julian Javier, Chico Cardenas and Roy Mcmillan, all weak hitting middle infielders. One loss that really galled Mauch was an early season loss 3-2 to the Cardinals when Culp gave up a late inning 3 run home run to Javier turning a 2-0 potential win into a sudden 3-2 loss. Mauch was livid after the game and felt Culp NEVER should have let Javier beat him.

    Then in July, during Culps hot streak Cardenas hit him well in one of Culp’s two losses and the final straw for Mauch was on August 15 when the Phils gave Culp a 6-0 lead before he even took the mound. Culp labored in the first inning, loading the bases, but got out of the inning unscathed. Then in the bottom of the 2nd he surrendered a single to weak hitting Chris Cannizzaro and then McMillan doubled. Mauch was furious and pulled Culp. Culp was equally furious at being pulled with a 6 run lead and when brought in to relieve the next night, basically pitched like it was batting practice. He never started another game that year. His arm was fine.

    I mentioned that there were two things about pitchers Mauch hated and the other one was if they gained weight during the season and Culp gained 10 pounds, pounds Mauch thought he shouldn’t be gaining. Dalrymple talked about this at the reunion, a reunion Culp refused to attend because he “hated Mauch.”

    In the irony of ironies, Culp reported to camp in ’65 in great shape and pitched excellently, to the tune of a 14-10 record. He was mediocre in ’66 and was moved that winter for lefty Dick Ellsworth. He went on to have a great career in Boston.

    One more thing. That ’64 staff featured several hurlers with pretty prolific career win totals in 100 wins is the standard. Bunning won over 200 games and Wise was close to that. Short, Shantz, Culp and Mclish all won well over 100 games. Bennett and Mahaffey, due to arm woes never reached the century mark.

    1. That is great information and took me back to being a 10 year old again. Think if social media was available back then. With Mauch’ philosophy Carlton would always be in conflict with Mauch after some of the lightweights that hit him.

      Did anyone get along with Mauch?

  46. Since we’re entertaining nostalgia here and mentioning Ray Culp, my favorite memory is when he beat the Phillies while still a minor leaguer.

    He pitched for the Eastern League Williamsport Grays in 1962 and won a 4-1 decision, if i remember correctly, against the parent Phillies at a Bowman Field exhibition game in August.

    I was 15 years old visiting my aunt and uncle and attended the game packed with thousands of spectators, including kids sitting on the grass beyond the foul lines separated by ropes from the playing field.

    The fans were deleriously happy when the Grays won. I was the only person in the place rooting for the Phillies.

  47. CD, great info! I remember Julian Javier, and he always played well against us. What was the year that Bill White at 1B, Javier at 2B, Dick Groat at SS, and Kenny Boyer at 3B all made the All Star game for St. Louis?

  48. To answer the 3 questions above…actually most players loved him. Allen, Callison, Bunning, Wine, Taylor, Amaro, Rojas and Groat thought he was the best manager they ever played for and he truly was an on field genius. But a few players couldn’t stand him…Mahaffey, Covington and the aforementioned Culp. But he was beloved by many.

    Mahaffey did not have a sore arm, in fact he was the best pitcher during the 10 game losing streak. He lost that 1-0 game and in Game 6, he left in the 8th inning with a 4-2 lead. Bobby Shantz blew it in the ninth.

    And, indeed, the infield of White, Javier, Groat and Boyer all made the All-Star team in 1964.

    Denny…try and let me know which player you are covering and I will try and share at least a small tidbit about their ’64 season!

    1. Thanks. I just started my trek thru the 1964 season. Going player by player by position. Dalrymple yesterday, Triandos today, Corrales tomorrow and Herrnstein Saturday, and so on. So any tidbits are very much appreciated. I love this much more than the regular seadon.

  49. I’m enjoying the trivia. Sounds like a lot of you all are some history buffs and I can appreciate that.

    Things are slow when the trivia starts coming out so I’ll throw an easy one out there; who made the final out in the 1993 NLCS?

    Maybe it’s a trick question 😉

  50. I have an idea for the use of the second GCL team (if the Phillies decide to have one).

    Background: The Phillies, Tigers, and Yankees have had 2 GCL teams for a couple years. All 3 had 9 affiliates. The Jays had 8 affiliates and one GCL team. But, the Jays also had a rookie level team in Bluefield in the Appalachian League. (The Yankees also had an Appy team).

    All four organizations had and will have teams in AAA, AA, A+, and A. They each carried a short-season team in Low-A, too. The Yankees had 3 rookie level teams (Pulaski and 2 GCL teams) and a foreign rookie level team in the DSL. The Tigers and Phillies each had 2 rookie level teams in the GCL and 2 foreign rookie level teams in the DSL. Toronto had 2 rookie level teams (Bluefield and in the GCL) and a foreign rookie level team in the DSL.

    So, my plan is that assuming the Yankees, Tigers, and Phillies want to keep their 2 GCL teams, they approach Toronto and suggest that the Bluefield team be moved to Dunedin and participate in the GCL. Each organization could then field a true GCL team and a more experienced team. They could petition the league to allow the teams to operate as though they were in separate leagues.

    The true rookie team would be comprised of first year graduates from the DSL, recently drafted HS players, other drafted players not ready for the advanced GCL team, and players who were on the GCL team the previous year who aren’t ready to advance. The advanced GCL team would be made of players moving up from the rookie GCL team, college draft picks, and juco draft picks.

    The Yankees would still be decreasing their affiliates from 9 to 7 (losing Low-A Staten Island and Pulaski and replacing Trenton and Charleston with Somerset and Hudson Valley), the Tigers would still shrink from 9 to 8 (losing Low-A Connecticut), the Phillies would still lose one team (Williamsport), and Toronto would lose a Low-A (although not Vancouver but Lansing). Bluefield would move to a complex team and save money by using their complex facilities.

    It would essentially create the equivalent of the NY-Penn or Appalachian Leagues within the GCL structure.

    This will not only give me and my cohorts more baseball to watch, but will also save 30 roster positions.

    1. Ah yes, roster positions. Let’s say affiliates will be expanded to 30 players instead of 25 with the additional 10 on reserve. The major league 26-man roster will not count against the limit of roster positions in the organization (maybe the 40, but I can’t wrap my head around that). Players on DSL rosters don’t count either. So, 30 players per stateside affiliate, 120 for full season teams and 30-60 for one or two GCL teams. (Maybe they allow an additional 10 players during the season, so a 2-gcl org might be able to carry 190 players).

      With the addition of Hamilton off waivers, I have 318 players in the org plus Ronald Torreyes who doesn’t count until he makes a roster in the spring. Subtract the 26 players who would comprise the active roster, the 55 I have on DSL rosters, the 30 I have on future contracts, 2 unassigned guys (Trevor Kelley and Genoa Olvis), and the 10 DSL players on the Restricted List (some of them for multiple years) and we’re down to 195 players for 190 roster spots.

      Granted, at some point this off season the Phillies are going to sign some free agents along the lines of Torreyes. But, if they don’t make the active roster they may exercise their option to walk (if they have one).

      So, the wreckage imagined to the minor league rosters might not be as bad as expected.

      The flaw is that we don’t know how the new Draft League will operate. Will drafted players remain in the league after the draft. If not, will they immediately displace players? This could also deflate my GCL scheme above. Oh well. Bed time.

      1. Somewhat off topic but I have a hard time that Trenton is not going to have an MLB affiliate team. I was working at the Trentonian at the time that complex was built. I was one one of the first people to tour the stadium. Heck I met Nomar Garciaparra when he was just a pup.

        My 3 sons have a couple Tony Clark foul balls. The Trentonian paid $10K a season for a luxury box there. As a senior Ad Exec do you know how many games I attended there. The first season it was a hot ticket. All my advertisers clamored to go. By 98/99 I was getting the box all to myself on many a night. LOL I took my entire 8 y/o little league team once. Great box too slightly to the 1B side right behind home.

        All the chicken fingers and thunder dogs you could eat included (no booze) company wouldn’t pay for that.

        My point is there is so much baseball concentrated in FL. You Jim would certainly benefit from your proposal 🙂

        But man Trenton was in such a perfect geographic location to draw Phillies, Mets and Yankees fans.

        My and I am sure many other leagues sold tickets to Thunder games for charity and as an award they always gave us a Sunday to play on the field when the Thunder team was away.

        I saw AROD and Jeter there. I saw Judge, Phil Hughes, Betances, Crawford, Knapp, Haseley, Eflin, Bohm and so many other MLB players come through there. I could go on and on about the players I saw that made it to the show and many still playing today.

        Every year one of their Junior ticket associates would call or email me when the Phillies were coming in to make sure I had purchased my tickets. I’m still in shock I guess.

        1. DMAR….I feel your pain….I use to like to go to see the Camden Riversharks just for an evening out, at Campbell Stadium….gone….kaput now!
          You have a lot of good memories of the place shared with family and friends at Arm and Hammer..
          Perhaps there will still be baseball there someday.

        2. Yeah, Trenton was hard to figure. Somerset is a little closer to NYC. But, is 45 minutes and 25 miles that important when you consider the 15+ years of fan investment in Trenton? I guess so. Was it the difference in stadiums? The ownership? At least the Phillies remained loyal to their affiliates. Although I heard there was some talk of “trading” Jersey City for Wilmington. If true, maybe JC’s recent stadium upgrades won out.

  51. RuleV day! Since, I am starved for anything, I will be excited for the player we pick, and really bummed if we pick no one. I remember the Shane Victorino pick. Instead of complaining that even the Royals are doing things, I will pretend that whoever we pick will be a good choice. If the Mets get Hendriks I may rant some more, but hopefully our stealth negotiators are on the case.

    1. matt … today at noon. According to MLB.com, the lowest the Phillies can pick is 11th.
      I’m not sure who is actually running the draft for the Phillies. Is it Ned Rice, Matt Klentak, Bryan Minniti, Andy MacPhail, or an all hands on deck effort? Will Brian Barber have any input since he scouted many of these players (as HS and college prospects) three and four years ago?
      IMO, the club should choose a high ceiling arm (a lottery ticket). Any of Alex Speas, Brendon Little, Trevor Stephan, Brett de Geus, Melvin Jimenez,, and Riley Pint are candidates I’d like to see Caleb Cothran get a chance to work with.

      1. Hinkie….they are mostly starters…I think they could go after a reliever type….arms like Astros’ Rivera or Rays’ Campbell.
        They also probably will leave two spots open on the 40…one for JTR and another for a free agent reliever signing….Hendriks, fingers-crossed.

        1. Romus … I think any of the six could throw out of the pen.
          Also. I’d swap out David Hale for any one of the lottery tickets I (or even you) have posted.

  52. Imagine you’re the Orioles and you still owe Chris Davis 2/$46 Million which is more than the combined payroll of the rest of your team for the next two seasons combined.

    Ok that might be a slight exaggeration on my part but its not far off…

    Talk about a guy that was a FA at the right time

    1. Glenn Davis wasn’t around, so they needed another slow, aging first baseman to overpay. Seriously, these long-term deals for first basemen and catchers are scary. This is why the Phillies may be a lot better off not signing JTR than giving him a deal of 5 years or longer. It sounds painful to say that now, but it could definitely be true.

      1. I have come to grips with the fact that the Phillies might not sign Realmuto. I have even accepted that they might sign a veteran defensive catcher to back up Knapp. But, that was contingent on their replacing the offense they lost in Realmuto and Gregorius elsewhere in the line up. Bolstering the bullpen and rotation should occur in either scenario.

  53. Hinkie, I can’t think about who is running things because it is too depressing. But, I will take any of the guys you like. Wasn’t Riley Pint part of the Groome/Puk draft? And, isn’t there a LH Pitcher from the Braves, I think named Burrows, who may be worth a shot.

  54. phillies84…to answer your trivia question from yesterday…it was Bill Pecota, who struck out swinging against Mitch Williams,who actually had a perfect ]3 up, 3 down] 9th inning to clinch the NL pennant in 1993.

  55. Phillies pick MIF Kyle Holder from NYY’s organization. I kind of figured there was a decent chance they’d pick a Yankee prospect. Brian Barber has all kinds of familiarity with their system. I was hoping they’d, instead, pick Trevor Stephan out of the Yankees system. He went to Cleveland later in round one.

    1. … and how appropriate. In an offseason where the Phillies have done just about nothing right, they were not ready to draft when their turn came up. LOL.

      1. So embarrassing. Everyone else was on point. We were surprised. Probably didn’t have any other options planned and then pulled a name out of a hat.

      2. Hinkie how do you know they weren’t ready (I’m not saying you’re wrong, I was just wondering how you knew that)? In any event, not being ready to pick in a one-round Rule 5 draft is completely inexcusable. You make a list of guys worthy of a roster spot, you rank them, you pick the highest ranked remaining guy available when your turn comes up. Seriously? That’s crazy.

        1. Not sure about Hinkie but I was listening on MLB.com and every team prior to Phillies announced their picks immediately, when Phillies were on the clock there was dead air and then the facilitator had to prod them into a selection.

          1. Yes. What Denny said.

            Seriously … somebody better nudge John Middleton to wake him up. Or get him off the phone with his account long enough for him to take notice of what an absolute mess his FO is. I mean we’ve got no chance with Ned Rice, Matt Klentak, and Andy MacPhail sitting in the Phillies executive suites staring at each other, and waiting until 4 o’clock comes around so they can go home.

            1. Yes and what Hinkie said. This FO is a mess.

              Following the draft I am glad that no one picked our prospects but sad that we don’t have any that anyone would want to pick. I heard a lot of Dodgers, Yanks and Ray’s getting picked and they have been in the upper tier of June drafts and we are picking low. What gives?

  56. I don’t really know much about Holder, other than the fact that he’s a former 1st round pick, bats LH, and was also available in the last two rule 5 drafts, but was never picked. Looks like he’ll battle Nick Maton for the Phillies’ utility IF spot.

    1. LOL I do seen him a bunch in 2019 at Trenton. He’s an awful pick. Average across the board, doesn’t do anything exceptionally well but he does act the part quite well

  57. I know nothing about this “kid’ (26 years old) other than looking at his stats but is he really that much better than Nick Maton? I would have rather seen a hard throwing lottery pick arm like Hinkie suggested.

    1. Maton has a little more upside than Holder based simply on age and a much better hit tool IMO. Nick is going into his age 24 season.

  58. Seriously, no one knew who would make the pick? Klentak must have stepped up, but he has no job title, so the league said someone else had to make the pick, and they scrambled to get Ned Rice on the zoom call. My scenario fits as well as anything they have done. At least I have some faith in Barber and Girardi. And, not kidding about our starting SS. Trade Segura to dump payroll, getting only a lottery ticket in return, and we are going to need someone to play there.

  59. BTW … the Phillies didn’t lose anybody in the rule 5. I thought there was small chance someone might pick Zach Warren.

  60. Yankees pay back the Phillies by picking Reggie McClain in the Minor League phase of the rule 5. I didn’t even know he was still with the Phillies.

    1. Weirdly, I thought McClain was on the AAA roster and wasn’t available for the minor league phase.

      1. When McClain was selected they mentioned that he was on the AA roster.

        Now I want to watch my most favorite Christmas movie, Die Hard.

  61. You see a lot of teams select players from organizations where members of their FO’s used to work because they have more intimate knowledge of the prospects. LOL … the Phillies don’t have to worry about that because nobody raids the Phillies FO when looking to hire. Thank you for that, John Middleton 🙂

  62. Other than hiring Caleb Cotham (and that was all Joe Girardi), this FO really has done nothing right this offseason. Middleton keeps complaining that the team has no money (lost 2B LOL!, then 145M) like his organization was somehow more decimated than any other in the league. MacPhail breaks the news that no MLB exec wants to uproot in the middle of a pandemic. And their three-headed brain trust (MacKlenRice) has gone rogue and is trying to sell off the teams best players behind Middleton’s back (or so he’d like us to believe).
    This train is completely off the tracks.

  63. Reading that Holder is a good glove with little stick. Back to Terry Harmon, Bud Harrelson, Michael Martinez, Bobby Wine, Ramon Aviles, etc. Hate it really!

    1. He did some hitting in his last year in AA. Maybe Barber got some really good reports from his buddies at the Yankees COVID site about how he was doing. It’s not the worst R 5 pick I’ve ever seen (it’s not the best either, however).

      1. Utility guy all the way…turns 27 in May.
        Highest ever got in Yankees Top 30….number in 9 in ’15, then down to number 25 in ’16…then out of the top 30.
        Great glove…no hit…. plus arm….utility guy apparently.
        Barber must really like his attitude and versatility with the glove.

    1. Well … I mentioned (a number of times) that Middleton has reached the fork in the road. He could not stay the course. He had to either be “all in” or start the team’s nex rebuild. This is your answer. You hire Dombrowski if you are “all in”. He’s going to trade some of the club’s best prospects to bring in “win now” players. I can see the Phillies looking to bring in a guy lie Blake Snell or Sonny Gray.
      I don’t like trading the teams’ best young prospects, but the reality of the Phillies’ situation is this: They probably have two or three years left of prime years of Harper, Nola, Wheeler, and Realmuto (they’re definitely re-signing him now). The team hasn’t won in nine seasons. Middleton needs a finisher.
      This is like the 76ers going out and hiring Daryl Morey. It also pretty much means Middleton will be spending in 2021.

      1. For sure, he will not trade Nola for LAD’s three top prospects.
        OTOH, he may trade Stott, Marchan and Howard for a piece more of the puzzle.

    2. WORST NEWS EVER!!!! KISS THE FRANCHISE GOODBYE. WILL HAVE 2 YEARS OF SUCCESS AND ANOTHER 10 YEARS OF EPIC FAILURE AS WE LOOK FOR THE NEXT GM AND PRESIDENT. I MAY GIVE UP MY PARTIAL PLAN IF THIS HAPPENS. TOTAL CLUSTER*UCK. LITERALLY THE LAST GUY I WOULD WANT THEM TO HIRE NEXT TO RUB. AM, JR. AWFUL!!!!!

      1. I cannot even begin to articulate how awful this move would be. Dombrowski has a very clear history. He comes to a franchise, he trades the prospects, he signs guys to big contracts, he has a lot of initial success and then he leaves the franchise, particularly the farm system, in tatters. The Tigers have still not come close to recovering from what he did.

        Middleton has lost virtually all of my respect. On the one hand he says – correctly – that the franchise’s biggest problem is that it does not identify and develop talent – and by that I am sure he meant young talent. Then he goes and finds the guy who is probably most known for exporting talent.

        You heard it here first. Hiring Dombrowski will be a disaster. The team will probably do well from 21-23 or so and then another 10 year nuclear winter.

        The damned Phillies never, ever learn a blessed thing. I am beside myself over this.

  64. Looks like Dombrowski is the surprise hire. It’s going to be some dark times following prospects on this site as he begins to trade them away.

    On the bright side, this guy spends money and he’s a strong enough voice to silence Middleton. Maybe we can maximize this window of Harper/Nola/Wheeler/Hoskins and then become a forward thinker during the NEXT rebuild.

      1. Dombro likes to bring in the proven star, most often in exchange for prospects.
        I hope Middleton tempers him on that philosophy if he should take the job.
        .

    1. Why not? The guy wins a lot and outs teams together that win a lot. I know this is a minor league site and he has sacrificed the system sometimes in the past for the good of the future but I think we’d all agree that our system stinks and we’re tired of not being a contender. I want more than to make the playoffs. I want to think we have a chance to win. A chance! I also think he wouldn’t come to a team that won’t allow him to spend money. For that reason alone, I’m very encouraged by what Middleton had to say to him to convince him to leave Nashville and home here.

    1. The farm system may take a hit if Dombro comes on board now…I do not think he will do what he did to the Tigers..

      1. I have to believe that a Dombro hire will loosen the purse strings during free agency. He can’t possibly expect to build a WS contender just trading away prospects, can he?

        I wonder where Abel, Stott, Morales … will end up.

        1. “I wonder where Abel, Stott, Morales … will end up.”….you will get to see them a lot ……in Tampa, the Rays will probably move Snell for them or more.

        2. As I thought…once the PoBO gets hired, Andy now retires before the holidays.
          I am sure he will retain all three of Matt K., Bryan M. and Ned Rice….for continuity sake for awhile, unless they get better offers from other teams.

  65. I did not want Dombrowski, and I am, once again, dismayed that with all of the good young guys around, Middleton was not able to close the deal on a good hire. Dombrowski knows 1 thing. Trade away all of the prospects. And, yes Murray, I want this Playoff drought to end, and I want Middleton to spend money. But, I want a team that is built to last. A mix of Stars, veterans with savvy and good, young controllable players. Dombrowski does not fill the third part of that. In 2-3 years we will be looking to replace him, and have no good young talent to rebuild with. The only one I wanted less than Dombrowski was Hendry.

  66. I want all three of them here jim and Romus, and I want to win. And, I think the right hire could have accomplished both.

  67. Boy, count me in! I know all about his reputation for dealing prospects but if you examine his record you will notice two things. One, he rarely moves a youngster who becomes a star and two, the man demands accountability and WINS! Why would we not want that now, after a moribund 9 pathetic years?

    This also indicates to me two things about Middleton. One, he has heard the cries of the Phillie masses and has not been tone deaf and two, this is perhaps the reason the Phils looked to be floundering around like a fish out of water. Middleton set his sites on DD and was prepared to wait it out until/unless he found someone he wanted more. I also think, based on the fact that Stark indicates that Middleton and DD have been talking for several days that both Byrnes and Levine caught wind of it and realized they were never going to be the front runners and dropped out.

    Phillie phans, if you are ready to start winning again, you just got your man. He has won wherever he has gone and would not be coming now if he was not promised the resources to get the job done. And while I am not ready to go as far as Hinkie in his assurance that JT will sign, it certainly ups the prospects of said signing.

    I am thrilled with this news if its true!

    1. It is certainly an indication of how freakin’ secretive the Phillies are. According to Stark, Middleton first made contact in October and revisited contact until now. They are in the final stages of negotiating and we are only just now hearing about this. This is why I view national writers’ stories with skepticism. Stark is a local guy who became a national writer but still lives in the Philadelphia area. This carries more weight with me because of that. But, I am truly amazed that this was kept quiet this long.

      1. Absolutely….never any leakage from the Phillie org….loose lips sink ships….another reason to believe JTR will be back at a reasonable contract, and a prenier releiver could be coming to Philly.

        1. I hope you are right, Romus. That would certainly make for a much better feeling about our team heading into the New Year. I still have serious doubts, but you have been optimistic all along, and I hope I get to eat my words!

        2. How can any news leak from the Phillies when only like 3 people are left working in the front office after they just let go of a bunch of people.

  68. What do the Thad Levines and Chaim Blooms and Josh Byrnes type executives have in common, besides they are not working here? They are the guys hired to replace a Dave Dombrowsk!

    1. matt13……Detroit was Al Avila in 2016….Dombro was released from his contract in August 2015.

    2. matt13….odds are he will try to get Blake Snell from the Rays since they are now open to moving him with his continue contract demands,
      ……so the question will be, what would it take from the prospect pool?

        1. Probably…….however, when he went to Boston he went the pitcher’s route with Sale and got Price for Detroit in 2014….he will go get pitchers when he has to

          1. He also swung a hell of a trade for some guy named Max Scherzer, didn’t he? Im excited for this pick because he is the one guy who can convince Meddleton that spending in this bargain market is NOT bad money chasing good money; it’s a way to set up these team to be competitive for the next few seasons. JTR, Hendriks, Kela, and Im happy. JMs no-money comments were disheartening, but this DD hire is a signal to me that they’re hopefully going to spend

  69. For the proposed Snell trade Tampa won’t want two RHP’s back for the LHP Snell. So its either RHP Abel and LHP Miller or RHP Morales and LHP Miller..

  70. matt13…I believe you are being much too hard on Dombrowski and I am unsure why? We have been lamenting on this site for days [weeks?] that we are wasting the prime years of Harper, Nola and Wheeler by not bringing someone on board and we just brought on the one guy who will insure those prime years are not wasted.

    Right now, I am uninterested in evaluating how this will all turn out in 2026, I am interested in once again making Philadelphia the center of the baseball universe like it was from 2008-11. And other than Epstein, who was not coming DD seems to me the best guy to potentially make that happen. He will also bring in proven baseball talent at the organizational level and is unlikely to look at 2021 as a rebuilding year. Frankly, I find this invigorating.

    I compare this in many respects to the hiring of Pat Gillick in 2006. I remember all the gnashing of teeth from phans who said he would produce a winner but then leave the organization in taters. Well, I know this much about Gillick. His 3 years as GM [06-08] produced 3 outstanding years, two playoff berths and a World Championship and begat 3 years [09-11] of the winningest regular season baseball in Phillie history.

    I will happily take 6 years of that! And one more thing. The hiring of DD will get Philadelphia talking Phillie baseball again in a way that Hill never would have. It already has, look at the traffic here and he’s not even on board yet. With Dombrowski around the Phils will never be boring and I find that news absolutely invigorating!

  71. Phillies84…you must not have noticed that I answered your trivia question. It was Bill Pecota, who struck out against Mitch Williams

  72. CD, You may be right. It wouldn’t be the first time I was wrong. I think I really had my eyes on a Neander or Levine or someone younger and from the Epstein school. Not that they all worked with him. I really wanted Theo #1, and I had the feeling that we could have hired Dombrowski a couple of months ago, and Middleton failed with the first 4-5 choices. So, I may be over reacting. My lack of trust in Middleton could be clouding my opinion. But, I am a Phillies fan, first and foremost, and I want to win. And, I want to win this year. And, I love speculating about trades, and we will sure get that. So, I am fully prepared to eat my words if this hire turns out to be what you envision.

  73. Boston: circa 2017
    A method to his madness.
    Dombro came in a replaced Ben Cherington/Mike Hazen ….the fairly new analytical GM types.
    Ben Cherington hoarded his prospects in Boston…Dombro came in …got Sale four years ago this month ….and they win. Traded were ….Yoan Moncada, Michael Kopech, Victor Diaz, and Luis Alexander Basabe. Pretty simple formula …..now Moncada is becoming a star for the ChiSox….but they have not won yet….now waiting for the others to come around if they ever will..

  74. Romus…yes, the man wins and in the end isn’t that what we all want. Hey, in a perfect world we win with Abel, Stotts and Morales but baseball isn’t a perfect world and the bottom line is that there are many methods to winning and DD has demonstrated he is a master at one….accumulating top of the line talent to do so, and quickly.

    One more thing that hasn’t been mentioned but is worth noting [and I am sure people like Boras is noting it!] and that is that DD didn’t come cheap and the fact that Middleton was prepared to pay the price, and apparently wanted to for several weeks, speaks to the fact that Middleton came to Hinkie’s proverbial fork in the road and chose the one we hoped he would choose, and that is to go all in.

    We know the Braves have. We know the Mets have. We suspect the Nats will. And we now have evidence that the Phillies will also.

    And in the end, thats all we can ask for from our sports teams.

    1. Amen.
      In actuality….he has many pieces in place….just need to tighten up the BP and IMO a lefty starter for rotation …play-off teams all seem to have that one lefty for obvious reasons.
      Yes…he will go all in and quite frankly the play-off drought needs to come to an end.

    2. This hiring would be fool’s gold. This organization is broken in the middle – trading all your prospects and overspending doesn’t make you a good organization – it makes you a team with short boom and long bust cycles.

      Total disaster. I would hate this hiring. Hate it.

      1. But the one thing I know now is that the man who was and remains responsible for the bad decisions is Middleton. He has exercised horrible judgment continually for the last 10 years and this is just another really bad decision. By 2025 or 2026, this organization will be back on the way down, DD will be fired and Middleton will be wondering again why the Phillies can’t get good and stay good. I am so done with this clown show.

      2. I do not think he will trade ALL the prospects.
        Lets look at the top pitchers right now, that may have some level of value….Howard, Medina, Morales, Miller, Abel, and maybe Damon Jones.
        I do think he will hold onto half of that group….which half I have no idea, who knows.
        But if wants to go and get a star pitcher he will have to give up some prospect capital no doubt,

        1. I think he will hold unto two of the four. One of the four is damaged goods and while someone may take a chance on him other GM’s will be wary. The two I don’t want to lose is Abel and Miller. Miller has a chance to stick, Abel is history.

          1. Have to remember one factor on Dombro’s past…two clubs were cash starved…Marlins for sure, Tigers somewhat, but certainly not a big spender in free agency…..and finally the one that was a large market dynamo…the Sox.
            So he may not be as trade happy with a team backing him with the dollars.

            However, he will make his mark on a trade….it is good for his metabolism.

        2. I trade Howard long before I trade Abel. I also like Miller more than Morales. Kuko knows my feelings about Medina who would merely be a throw in on a big SP acquisition. The biggest factor in this whole scenario is whose repertoire Caleb Cotham is best suited to enhance.

          1. mark8:29……Spencer gives a team a ready made MLB pitcher…Abel is 3 years away at least. So depends on what the other club desires.
            I also like Miller….but prefer Morales with his age and upside.
            Medina and Jones are nice arms but probably are part of a package to round it out.

            1. Four tiers of the guys mentioned, IMO:

              Medina and Jones are nice arms but completely expendable.

              You like to keep Morales and Miller but they too are expendable, albeit less so than the first two.

              Howard you try to keep at all costs and give him up if you really must.

              Abel is untouchable at this point IMO.

            2. I don’t have an opinion on the different levels above, but I agree that Abel is an untouchable. And, the only untouchable in the organization. But, probably for a different reason. He hasn’t established his trade value yet. Reports out of Instructs indicate that the Phillies were impressed. But, he didn’t play HS ball last season and he didn’t play in a Complex league last summer. The Phillies have no idea of his value and would very likely be trading well below his potential value. Once he establishes his value, he will become “touchable” with a price tag we don’t yet know.

          2. @8mark – every prospect will be in play as long as the return is a top MLB talent that can help the Phillies win the WS. McPhail and Klentak wasted some much of our time watching mediocrity. I WANT THE PHILLIES TO WIN NOW!!

  75. While I understand the anti-DD thought process, I am overjoyed that Middleton is FINALLY making a call, MacPhail is on his way out, and Klentak can fetch the new POBO coffee…”lots of cream and sugar, kid.”

    Joe Girardi must be pleased that a credible figure is taking the front office helm. As for DD selling off the farm, what’s really left. The greater issue is hiring some scouts and developers to work with the hidden talent in the lower levels. True talent is value, whether it’s in the minors or the Show.

  76. I am more level headed from when I first heard the news, and I read Jayson Stark’s column, and he likes Dombrowski. I read the list of his Boston trades, and it was not as bad as I thought it was in terms of strip mining the farm. I have railed on and on against Middleton for doing nothing, so this is a positive compared to that. And, Andy MacPhail is going away. I would like to keep Stott and Abel and Morales. I am trying to see what we need to compete. Another SP, a SS, a C, and, at least, 2 back of the BP arms. Let’s say we are all wrong and, except Romus, and JTR comes back. And, we trade the farm for Lindor and Snell. Is that a WS team?

    1. I’m still a firm believer that a championship caliber ball club is strong up the middle. Catching, pitching, MIF and CF are keys. I think DD gets the JTR deal done. Not sure Snell is all that he’s cracked up to be at this point. Save the prospects for another bigger deal, if and when absolutely necessary. The bullpen is a greater area of need. Sign Hendriks and Springer. Keep the farm intact until more incoming players are drafted/J2 signed. I like the idea of unloading Segura’s salary. $60M plus should be enough to land JTR, Hendriks and Springer and fill the holes. Shortstop? Andrelton Simmons could be a solid, reasonably cheap glove until Stott is ready. Offense from Harper, Bohm, Realmuto, Springer, and hopefully a rejuvenated Hoskins would anchor the roster.

      1. Been hearing a lot of noise on Springer and the Mets.
        A McCann signing probably brings them Bauer also.

        1. Maybe DD convinces Johnny Cigars to bring Bauer here on a 1 year deal. I seriously doubt the Mets can sign both Bauer AND Springer.

          1. “I seriously doubt the Mets can sign both Bauer AND Springer.”…they do have the cap space.
            But Bauer may have to be his patented one year mega deal…..since Conforto will be coming up next year for a 5/6 year deal…and who knows about Lindor if they trade for him. Springer will be at least 4/5 years himself.

    2. After what the fanbase went thru with McPhail and Klentak, anybody not named Any McPhail and Matt Klentak smells like fresh air.

      Dombo is known to want to WIN NOW and that’s where the Phillies are when they signed Harper, Wheeler and traded for JTR. As I mentioned before, the key pieces are available, Dombo just need to address the overall depth – rotation, bullpen, bench and key starting positions.

      Klentak “sox” too much in finding talent that keeps pushing the Phillies away from contention. Dombo should easily outperform McPhail and Klentak when it comes to talent infusion. Dombo will not hesitate in trading for legit MLB talent.

  77. Can someone make a list of prospects he traded away? By the sounds of some people on here the list has to include At least 20 all stars and 27 future HOFers.

    1. Just a list of the players from the following trades.
      Acquiring Sale from WSox
      ….Price from the Rays
      ….and Miggy from the Marlins.
      Kinsler from the Rangers for Tiger’s Prince Fielder was one to one swap.
      There may be more biggies ….but these pop up in my head now.

    2. Sale four years ago this month ….and Sox won it with him
      . Traded were ….Yoan Moncada, Michael Kopech, Victor Diaz, and Luis Alexander Basabe. ..now Moncada is becoming a star…Kopech is trying to get healthy

      Miggy and Dontrelle Willis….for OFer Cameron Maybin, LHP Andrew Miller, catcher Mike Rabelo and minor league pitchers Eulogio De La Cruz, Dallas Trahern and Burke Badenhop to the Marlins.

      Price from the Rays for Willy Adames….Drew Smyly… infielder Nick Franklin from Seattle, with Detroit OFer Austin Jackson going to the Ms..

  78. As others have posted – The Phillies need to start over or pull a Warren Buffet – the FA market cost is suppressed and it’s time to go into luxury tax territory in my opinion. If it does not work, you sell off pieces in 2-3 years to jump start a rebuild.

  79. I agree with CD and others who concur with him. I am thrilled that Middleton made a decision – a big one. You don’t bring in DD if you are wishy washy or not willing to spend $$$. This man wins – and he makes winning decisions. Yes he can spend $$ but let’s face it – Middleton fooled all of us and mlb by playing possum – now let’s roll ’em…..

    My guess is Girardi and Harper are wearing fiesta hats right now !!

  80. The criticism of Dombrowski sounds a little like Buddy Ryan criticizing Cris Carter: All he can do is catch touchdown passes.

    There are worse things than winning a pennant. Remember, we’ve already had last-place teams, including one with the worst record in the majors, which netted us a 1-1 draft pick. Now, which do we prefer, a pennant or a1-1 draft pick?

    So, let’s say Dombrowski trades away the prospects and the Phillies win the pennant. Can the future after the pennant be any more grim than what we’ve experience in the past decade?

    Now, I don’t know Dombroski’s full story. There is more to being a GM than trades. Did he help build an organization that can identify, sign and develop talent, for example?

    I’d rather have Dombrowski trying his best to win than have McPhail saying “If we do we do. If we don’t we don’t.” Or, in another defeatist comment that should have gotten him fired, “who’s going to move in the middle of a pandemic,” (not an exact quote, but close.)

    1. Well said, Frank. I will go so far as to say that the Dombrowski hire is the Phillies’ most legitimate executive one made since Gillick. And it’s really not even close despite DD’s detractors. That’s probably a sadder commentary on the organization’s history.

    2. No, the criticism is legitimate. It’s that he is good at pushing all the chips into the middle of the table and mortgaging the future for short-term success, but when that’s done, he leaves the organization overloaded with salary and with precious little in the way of future assets.

      If you are looking for a dynasty builder – and I am – Dombrowski, who has been fired twice in the last 6 years for doing just what I am telling you now that he will do here, is not your guy. If he builds a long-term machine here – like the ones we see with the Braves, Dodgers, or Yankees, I would be extremely surprised. And, no, I am not satisfied with 3-4 years of going for it and then another 7-8 years of rebuilding, but that’s what I think will happen.

      1. Dynasties?
        You need to stop thinking like that.
        The actual last dynasty of a champion was the SF Giants (three)..and six years removed look where they are at.
        The Braves of the 90s….one WS
        Dodgers last 10 years….one WS
        The Red Sox have have won 4 in the last 17 years…and have finished badly in as many years as they have won it all..
        The sport and fiscal structure of the teams does not lend itself well to dynasties anymore.
        You take the ring as best you can get it….one year at a time.

        1. “Dynasties?
          You need to stop thinking like that.”

          NO, I DON’T!

          You’ve lived in Philadelphia way too long. You think it’s okay for your team to be good for 3 or 4 years and then tank for another 3 or 4 years because you’ve never seen anything better than that, at least with your baseball team. IT ISN’T OKAY. DON’T SETTLE FOR THAT.

          First, let’s talk about dynasties. Baseball is too random and competitive to expect your team can make it to the WS, let alone win it, every year. No matter what you do, that’s pretty much not going to happen. It could when the old Yankees would win the AL pennant every year and go right to the WS, but the extended playoffs and random chance in baseball make that impossible. By dynasty, I mean having a team that is typically very good, often excellent and never bad that is in the playoffs and with a legitimate chance to win it most years. That’s the Yankees and for the last

          Let’s look at the Yankees. From 1996 to 2019 (24 seasons), they won 90 or more games 18 times, won 100 or more games 7 times and never won fewer than 84 games. That’s what I’m talking about. Similarly, the Dodgers are now the new class of baseball and they’ve won 90 or more games 7 years in a row (and it would have been 8 had they played a full season in 2020) and there’s no tanking or rebuild in sight because they have a self-sustaining organization with good trades that essentially NEVER trades its best prospects. Trust me, if Sixto had been in the Dodgers farm system he would have been untouchable. With Dombrowski, that sure as hell isn’t happening.

          1. You are entitled to how you feel and your opinion on the hire and the fact you can already predict the Phillies ….” …. 3-4 years of going for it and then another 7-8 years of rebuilding,”

            If they win it all in those 3/4 years …..I will be happy.
            I do not want just ‘competiveness’….whatever that means, since they were and have been competitive for the last three years for the first 2/3rd of each season only to falter going down the stretch.

            1. Listen, I WANT to be wrong about this. And, it was a prediction, nothing more or less, but please, let me be wrong. I want him to succeed.

              As for the team being competitive over the last few years, they really weren’t. Nobody wants the same garbage they’ve seen here over the last 10 years. It’s been dreadful.

  81. I wonder if the vaccine being close changed Middleton’s mind about spending money. It now appears like the season could start late but have some number of fans in the seats for the 2nd half of the season. Just a thought…

    1. Fauci said anyone who wants the vaccine would have one by April. I’d be my season starts close to on time with fans phased back in by ASB

            1. After 60 years stuck in a basement lab and more timeline in back of him than in front, Fauci is taking his victory tour getting the confetti and $$$$. You will see him everywhere and going with the flow.

  82. If you’re Middleton you have got to bet that there will be fans in the park sometime by 2022 ? If you own an investment as valuable as the Phillies – a multi billion $$ asset – you have to buckle up and say, if everything is for sale at 1/3 the price – its time to put $$ into that investment. Whether you trade the entire minor league system – you have to win, sometime, somehow…because this town has a dearth of “good vibes” from its teams. This team, despite the naysayers, has a lot of talented players – otherwise, DD wouldn’t have considered coming here for his swan song ?? Whether Jim, in all due respect, has to rename this sight, PHUTURE PHILLIES NOW, this is a changeover in management that will propel the franchise forward – because to sit back and have done nothing would have been worse.

    1. Agreed. A Phillies team that has proven they don’t draft well, picked an untouchable kid with a pick not in the top 10 less than a year ago? Spencer Howard, who didn’t exactly impress in his MLB debut can be traded. But not Abel!! Come on.

    2. I think his value would skyrocket after a successful season in Low A. He’s untouchable CURRENTLY for me but not at the deadline or next offseason.

    3. I provided this above but will repeat the applicable part.

      Abel is an untouchable. And, the only untouchable in the organization. He hasn’t established his value yet. Reports out of Instructs indicate that the Phillies were impressed. But, he didn’t play HS ball last season and he didn’t play in a Complex league last summer. The Phillies have no idea of his value and would very likely be trading well below his potential value. Once he establishes his value, he will become “touchable” with a price tag we don’t yet know.

  83. The DD hiring rings the official bell to the off season. The NL East just got more competitive. And as we wait for some team to finally sign James McCann, it’s interesting to note who drafted him out of the University of Arkansas in 2011…you guessed it.

    1. Dombro may have drafted McCann when he was in Detroit, but signing him over JTR would be a PR disaster to start out his tenure as PoBO.
      Now judging by his past, hje would he back it up with a favorable trade or two and additional FA signings.
      Middleton however may not be on board with letting JTR walk.
      Ahh……the intrigue is alluring.

  84. Here’s a prospect piece on Kyle Holder from his time in the AFL a few years ago. Sounds like a Freddy Galvis type player. He gets rave reviews for his glove work at SS. Can also play 2B and 3B. Not much of a threat with the bat. He’ll battle Nick Maton for the team’s utility IF. Maton’s a better prospect IMO, but he may need a season of AAA.

    1. All I can say Hinkie…it gives the Phillies more options with Kingery and Segura.
      If they sign a shortstop like a Andrelton Simmons, then they can try to move either Kingery or Segura in a trade, and for whoever stays, goes to second base, backed up by Maton and/or Holder
      Did see were Holder played in the same infield with Cubs’ Kris Bryant for a year or two out at San Diego State……and he also drafted 18 spots before Phillies drafted Scott Kingery in 2015..

      1. The Phillies are thin at middle infield at the top of the org. Holder is a much cheaper option than the FA AAAA MI they normally have to sign in the off season.

  85. rocco’s boy:

    Ray Moffo
    @RayMoffo
    This should be a preview of Dave Dombrowski’s first day in the Phillies front office
    GIF
    8:31 AM · Dec 11, 2020·Twitter for Android

    1. Played to the tune of: 🎼 “I’ll be home for Christmas, you can count on me?🎼 and sung by Andy MacPhail and the Bleacher Girls Chorale!

  86. From what I have read, a major concession that Dombrowski wanted was autonomy. So, I can only assume that he got it. What we don’t know is the budget. I wonder if this had occurred a few weeks ago, would we already have Hand and/or Trevor May? MacPhail is gone, so we are automatically a better team. Someone said earlier that this now starts the off-season. And, it does feel like that.

    1. i hope it also means that Middleton stays out of things, to me it’s usually not good when a owner starts over stepping GM’s. Granted they clearly make a mistake by hiring young Sheldon as GM when they could have picked Bloom instead. With Dombrowski it will be interesting to see what moves he makes and what Joe G can get out of them but they must get better at evaluating talent first and foremost which hopefully Dombrowski can do a better job then the previous groups have done since Pat Gillick

    2. MacPhail is not gone just yet, but he is now irrelevant. The Phillies have removed the wet blanket from the front office windows. And let’s hope he’s absent from the DD virtual presser this afternoon. Debbie Downer need not attend. Just Dave Dombrowski, thanks.

      1. Bottom line …it is another blogger’s speculative opinion as he very well puts it in the article..

  87. At the very least, I hope Dombrowski has better luck/skill finding productive players like when he found Doug Fister. He can’t do worse than Klentak in that area.

    1. Well I agree with that. Klentak had a very good plan but a complete inability to judge talent, including talent on his own team.

  88. I’m not totally impressed with the Dombo signing but at the minimum we will see some creativity and aggressiveness from the FO — something that lacks in McPhail-Klentak era.

    I’m not sure if Dombo will tear down an already weak farm, but Dombo will be pushing that payroll $$ way up there. Just hope to use the financial muscle wisely. The Phillies is already behind ATL and NYM when securing value contracts.

    McPhail and Klentak set the bar too low that Dombo should be able to exceed what McKlentak accomplished in 5+ years.

  89. I found it interesting that at the news conference, Middleton accentuated the successes Dombrowski has had in drafting. He is clearly an upgrade of what we had for the past 5 years, and we will know soon if Middleton has given him more money to play with. He is our guy now, so I have to root for him to succeed. Maybe Middleton felt that $207M was plenty for Klentak to play with, but now that “it is a great day for the Phillies organization,” the purse strings are loosened?

    1. That Marlins WS team , was his players he acquired…AJ Birnett, Beckett et al….though he was not there by 2003.
      He knows how to evaluate talent…….and of all the prospects he traded away for vet stars, not many prospects went on to be stars………these two have a chance right now, Moncada and Willy Adames.
      Phillies won it with Stand Pat Pat……hopefully with Trader Dave it is more of the same…..it is in his DNA

  90. Even if you are not a big phan of this hiring [and I unequivocally am!] one thing you should be cheering is that finally the Phillies are RELEVANT again after too many years in the weeds. Heck, even I was losing interest in the team and I have loved this team longer than I care to count [hint: I can name all 39 players from the 1964 Phillies team].

    Finally we will enter a Phillie site daily curious about the latest trade rumor, free agent signing or meeting with a prominent agent. Yes, DD has a solid relationship with Boras and in today’s game that never hurts. IMHO, there is nothing worse in sport than a boring team and the Phils were slowing entering that territory which is a death knell for phans. Not only middling mediocrity but boring while doing it.

    DD has changed that and the fact the he signed on for 4 years tells me this isn’t simply a weigh station stop while waiting for the Nashville Neverwillbes to emerge as a major league team and city. And 20 million for the ride tells me that Middleton is serious, heck two weeks ago I half expected to see him at my street corner saying to me “hey buddy can you spare me a dime?”

    I know and understand those on the site who hate this move and their reasons are not only well chronicled but legitimate. But, good lord, after the experience of playing Klentak/McPhail press conferences to put me to sleep at night for far too long, count me as one who is excited by this move.

    If you doubt me, watch the traffic increase on this and other Phillie sites after this move. DD is a mover and shaker and in my mind the Phils really haven’t had one since Paul Owens and I still think his era was the liveliest in my time as a Phillies phan.

  91. CD, I cannot argue with you at all. And, I hope he does a great job. I go back a long time with this team, like you, and I was really hating this off season. So, I was initially not in favor, mostly because I wanted want of the “new guys”, but we are now interesting again, and as you stated “relevant.” I cannot quarrel with that.

  92. Advice to John Middleton: Let Dave Dombrowski (and Joe Girardi) handle the out front business. That press conference was reallllly impressive. He’s smart. He’s comfortable. He’s down to earth. No B-S’ing. Light years better than the pressers Middleton and MacPhail have handled over the past year.
    I can’t think of anything I didn’t like. The fact that he’s already referring to the Phillies as “us” and “we” was something small, but was still good to hear. He also, more than once, mentioned that he wants to build a sustained winner. He was also familiar with Mick Abel from last year’s draft, and mentioned how much he liked him. Also super happy he mentioned he loves power arms.

  93. DD said payroll will be less than last year. At first I’m like well great that sucks but then I remember they’re trying to unload Segura and Jake the snake is off the books. They could sign JT and be fine and would be even better if they trade Segura.

    Can’t believe they’re about pay VV $4m-$7m. Trade him and let someone from the minors pitch for way less.

  94. Dombro is not my preference but he is not necessarily a bad choice — his known MO is short term gain in expense of long term gain. If Dombro can do a better job in drafting and scouting — he might turn out to be the right person that the Phillies has been waiting for a long time.

    What I expect is Dombro will fill a team that is expected to contend —- no more bargain hunting, journeyman carousel and borderline commitment to win or live another day.

    1. you mean he might address the bullpen NOW, when dozens of quality arms are available, rather than waiting for Heath Hembree and David Hale at the deadline? That is unimaginable! In all seriousness, I love the DD hire. I was getting overly anxious that these cry-poor statements from the FO would signal an offseason of complacency. I feared they would look at that 7 bullpen ERA and conclude, “well, its statistcally improbable that that would happen again, so let’s just bring back VV and comfortably regress to the mean.” This won’t happen with DD at the helm, and that is a good sign. For all of you above who think Mr. Jim will no longer have a blog due to DD’s complete demolition of our farm system, I say just take a deep breath and know that MOST of the time DD only makes that huge trade when the team needs that final piece (Sale, Price). Other times, he just acquires Max Scherzer. I love this move. Go get us Hendriks and Kela and another arm (I like Tepera) for that pen, TWalker and TWilliams for SP depth, and JTR of course. I don’t think this is too unrealistic. Let’s go, DD!

  95. Hinkie…I was thinking the same thing as I was watching the presser. Gosh, what a brilliant mind and he is simply so comfortable with himself its amazing to contemplate the difference between him and Klentak/McPhail. And I like how accountable he is, answered all the questions honestly and thoroughly and you could tell he knew each and every questioner at the press conference and had a good relationship with all of them.

    If I am Middleton I get out of the way and let Dombrowski and Girardi run the show. I am not sure I can recall such a duo that I have felt such confidence in since Owens and Green. You can tell he just knows what he is doing and where he wants to go with the team. I mean, he even was able to name the starting rotation from his old Chicago White Sox team and that was over 30 years ago! I often felt McPhail couldn’t remember, or care, what he ate for breakfast today. And Klentak wouldn’t tell you what he ate but rather would try and dissect the caloric intake and health ramifications of said meal.

    Give me a baseball guy anyday! Welcome back to the major leagues, Philadelphia Phillies.

  96. I too was impressed with his press conference. One spin I haven’t heard but I wonder if Realmuto looks at this hire and is impressed enough to re-sign here even if say the money is close but maybe not where he had hoped. That despite wanting to be the highest paid catcher, that due to covid that maybe he will look at this move and say I know this guy wants to win and can win, and I want to win so why not win here since we do have some interesting parts if we can just get a few more we could be a consistent contender.

  97. Not sure if this will have any bearing in the JTR negotiations, but Dombro did draft James McCann in 2011 when he was the Tigers GM…..and also Curt Casali in the same draft.
    Both out of SEC schools…Arkansas and Vandy, respectively.

  98. It would be okay with me if Dombrowski signed McCann for four years at 8-10 a year. It would be a big savings over JTR and DD already has history with McCann.

  99. I am continuing my quest for providing mini daily bios for each member of the 1964 Phillies to my friend. Went thru catchers and now on to 1B . Did Herrnstein today, will do Frank Thomas tomorrow and Roy Sievers on Sunday.

    Any tidbits?

        1. Nope….one last clue,
          … which should be a dead giveaway,
          ….the colors of the uni………..Maize and Blue.

        2. Denny:
          Times up…..Wolverine….starting FB…dead center in pix as captain of ’58 team.

          ….left leg extended in pix, why….surgery to knee ended season…injured it in a game vs Joe Bellino and the power house US Naval Academy.

            1. He did play ball with the Mich baseball team…..and the Phillies ended up signing him, and he had a decent length MLB career…so I guess he lived with whatever pain occurred for him.

    1. Denny,

      It probably isn’t what you are looking for, but I can tell you 1) I loved Roy Sievers and 2) he drove me crazy hitting so many 400-foot drives to dead center field for loud outs.

      1. It’s exactly what I wanted to get, people’s memories of their past. Good and bad, something to remember. My buddy says the same about Pancho Herrera.
        Thanks.

  100. Rumor has it that Todd Zolecki will write a chronology of the Phillies’ playoff drought from 2012-2020 entitled “From Dom Brown to Dombrowski”. Gonna be a huge seller.

    1. As a polish guy that has me rolling on the floor. Now to find the re-incarnation yaz, musial, and simmons (aka szymanski) for the outfield, mixed in with a bit a niekro, perranoski and konstanty for the staff.

      1. Yes. Aloysius Syzmanski. I wonder how many know the great Philadelphia A Al Simmons was Polish.

        Here’s another: Basketball Hall of Famer and La Salle grad Tom Gola was elected to the Italian-American Sports Hall of Fame. Makes, sense, he had a vowel at the end of his name.

        At the induction ceremony, Gola thanked them for he honor but pointed out that he was Polish.

        1. Frank, I never knew that story about Gola. That’s great. I would settle for Aj pierzynski at this point over watching a full season of andrew knapp taking his hacks. Also, I never knew alan trammell was polish until a few years back.

  101. I have to be impressed with what he said. He believes in young players. His prior deals and reputation for trading young players was about matching needs at the time, and we are not 1 player away. So, he is not trading the farm for 1 guy. He is really high on Mick Abel. He likes a real Closer. All good things. There are certainly moves to be made to help the team’ entire BP, and I can’t wait to see what he does first. We might not have a $207M payroll this season, but I don’t think we are going down to $160M

    1. matt13….Dave’s Trading Post will be hiring for the upcoming demands of the holiday business season.

  102. Now that John Middleton has hired Dave Dombrowski as POBO, I would expect Dombrowski to bring in Frank Wren to be part of the Phillies FO. Wren has been with Dombro in Montreal, Miami, and Boston. In fact, the only extended period of time the two weren’t together is when Wren spent 14 seasons working in Atlanta as Ast GM and then GM for the Braves. While with Atlanta, Wren helped draft and develop Jeff Francoeur, Brian McCann, Charlie Morton, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Yunel Escobar, Jason Heyward, Freddie Freeman, Craig Kimbrel, Mike Minor, Andrelton Simmons, Phil Gosselin, Chasen Shreve (who I’d like to see the Phillies add to their BP this winter), Nick Ahmed, Tommy La Stella, and Alex Wood.

    1. Wren is certainly available if he wants it….Sox let him him go a year ago right with his sidekick Dombro….I suppose Bloom informed John Henry he wanted to bring in his own personnel, though he kept O’Halloran.
      Wren is experienced for sure …has traveled

    2. Frank Wren is a really superb talent evaluator and franchise builder. Bringing him in would be fantastic. It would have great if he could have been here in 2014 – the franchise would look completely different right now.

      1. Excited with Middleton to Dombrowski to Wren to Girardi to the Team. Hoping for big news from now until ST.

        1. So as disappointed as I was with Dombrowski, if he puts in place the infrastructure of a strong farm system and is being hired to identify and groom his successor (quite possible), this could be just fine even if we trade a lot of prospects to go over the top. I’d rather not do that too much, but if there’s a real pipeline (see the Nationals), then any lull would be much more of a temporary thing. Love Frank Wren – so his addition would be welcomed news.

          1. One thing I think we can all agree upon is that what was here was a slow burning pile of mediocrity and wasn’t working. Unfortunately, one of the biggest reasons for that was Johnny A, who Klentak inherited and who didn’t have the experience and gravitas to fire soon after he was hired. I am glad Johnny A has moved on and I’ve really enjoyed the last few drafts.

  103. Romus and Denny, I read that Herrnstein was traded to the Cubs along with Ferguson Jenkins. I did not remember that. I thought it was a player named Adolfo Phillips? And, back to present day, I would like the “aggressive” moves to add BP arms to start with Archie Bradley.

    1. matt13….MLB Network guy suggested Alex Colome…..another said Liam Hendriks is a possibility also….Bradley is certainly in the mix for me.
      I think he needs to get two quality name BP arms….then work with what we have now or any other arms that he can sign of lesser cost or value.
      Relief arms are so unpredictable from year to year….only a few stand the test of time for consistency year- in and year- out..

    2. What a bad trade and maybe Dombrowski needs to remember this trade when he makes trades with potential prospects for seasoned veterans.

        1. Looking forward to it. Trading Fergie Jenkins was one of the worst trades and then Ryne Sandberg, It would be like trading Abel, Derrick Hall and Mickey Moniak for Yu Darnish and Jon Lester; Jenkins/Phillips/Herrnstein.

          Also the Ryne Sandberg trade would be like trading Segura and Alex Bohm for Elvis Andrus: Bowa/Sandberg for DeJesus.

  104. Denny…the Frank Thomas/Phillies connection actually began on Aug 3, 1964 while Thomas was still a Met. The Phils were scheduled to play the Dodgers in Philly that day and face Sandy Koufax, who had only thrown a near perfect game [one walk] a few months earlier at Connie Mack Stadium. By all accounts there were a few rain clouds in the area so the Phils called the game, as in those days the home team got to make this decision.

    Their reasons? To avoid a near certain loss to Koufax and because the game would be rescheduled for Sep.8, Yon Kippur. Koufax is Jewish and never pitched on this Jewish holiday. The Phils thought their decision was brilliant at the time. History would show it likely cost them the pennant.

    What does this have to do with Thomas, you ask? Four days later, on Aug 7, 1964 the Phils, who despite their league lead were absolute patsies to anyone who could throw left handed, acquired Thomas and immediately put him at first base and batting cleanup.

    In all my years as a Phillie phan I can recall very few months where a Phillie team was more of an offensive monster than the month that Thomas played [August of ’77 with Schmidt/Luzinski was pretty awesome.] In the first 29 games after his arrival the Phils scored 8 or more runs 10 times and AVERAGED nearly 7 runs a game. Thomas doubled on the first pitch he was with the Phils and hit 7 home runs and knocked in 26 runs in his first 32 games, 21 of which the Phils won. Callison, Allen and Thomas were a veritable wrecking crew and the Phils lead lengthened from 1.5 games to 6.5 games. Certainly this Phillie team was not only going to win the pennant but would likely be favored to win the World Series as ’64 was a down year in the AL [Yanks, Orioles and ChiSox battled for the pennant that year.]

    After splitting a Labor Day DHer at home on Sept. 7, the Phils played that makeup game against the Dodgers on Sept 8, a day that should have been an off day. Not only did the Dodgers, sans Koufax, win the game 3-2 but Thomas broke his thumb diving back to 2nd base in the 6th inning. This injury would prove devastating.

    Without Thomas in the middle of the order the Phils not only struggled against lefties, they struggled against everyone and in the final 24 games, without a healthy Thomas [he tried to play the final week but was grossly ineffective] the team finished 9-15, including the historic 10 game losing streak. Jim Bunning later remarked that had Thomas not been injured the Phils might have won the pennant by 10 games and I tend to think he is correct. Of course, they lost the pennant the final day of the season.

    The Frank Thomas story had one more chapter and it involves Richie Allen in 1965. Despite Thomas’s heroics the Phils acquired slugging first baseman Dick Stuart in the winter of ’64 so Thomas was pretty much a pinch hitter during the first few months of ’65, something he wasn’t happy about. He was an obstinate type by nature, his nickname was appropriately The Big Donkey for said reason.

    The Phils, the pre-season favorite to win the NL pennant, struggled for the first few months of the season before catching fire in late June, led by Allen’s incredible hitting [he was hitting .360 and every bit of it was earned!] On the night of Saturday, July 3, the Phils were scheduled to play the Reds at Connie Mack when Callison began needling Thomas about a misplaced bunt the night before. Allen was taking ground balls at 3rd base, heard the needling and began to laugh. Thomas barked at Allen, Allen barked back, and the next thing anyone knew Thomas and Allen were fighting with Thomas hitting the Phillies young star on the shoulder with his bat.

    The fight ended, the game began and, in one final irony to the Frank Thomas story, Allen and Thomas took turns trying to win the game that night. Allen was phenomenal, 3 hits, two triples, 4 RBI while Thomas, in his final act as a Phillie, hit a pinch hit game tying home run in the bottom of the 8th inning, his only home run of the year with the team. The Phils lost the game, lost their momentum [they would almost literally collapse after this game] and really lost Richie Allen as a Phillie that night.

    The Phils released Thomas the next day and told Allen not to talk about the incident. The phans blamed Allen and mercilessly booed him the rest of the year and he became a shell of himself, finishing the season at .302, a loss of almost 60 points from his average on July 3.

    Thomas and Allen eventually made up and both were friendly at the 1989 twenty five year reunion. But like most players who wear Phillie pinstripes, the Frank Thomas story was a complex one, part heroic, part sinister and almost always destined to end frustrating.

    But for one glorious month, Aug. 7-Sept 7, 1964, the Philadelphia Phillies were the talk of the baseball world, a mere 3 years almost to the month since their never again to be repeated 23 game losing streak in 1961.

    Hope this helps, Denny!

    1. Cali…great writing and great story. I remember the incidents but was not aware of all the details you spelled out in it. Frank Dolson of the Inquirer covered that Thomas/Allen saga well at the time.

    2. CD – thanks for all the color on the Thomas-Allen incident. I recall from reading a synopsis by Bill James – part of the problem was, when the Phillies released Thomas he was able to talk about the incident to the press and griped about Allen and his part in it. Meanwhile, Allen was not allowed to say anything, nor defend himself. This was a severe oversight by the Phillies FO and really undermined their own star unwittingly.

      James also describes Thomas as sort of a country bumpkin who was not too sharp and was quick to take jokes as insults wherein he would counter with fists or intimidation.

      1. RU…reminds of the story Richie Ashburn told about Frank Thomas.
        It was ’62 and Richie was playing CF for the Mets and Thomas was in LF….the shortstop was Elio Chacon, who spoke little English.
        Bloop fly ball to the triangle area bewteen LF/CF and SS…..Richie runs in to catch it, and remembers the Spanish words told to him ….’Yo lo tengo’ (I have it) and yells it out to avoid colliding with Chacon……but burly Frank Thomas comes crashing in and levels Richie.
        Richie laying on the ground and looks at Thomas- ‘hey!’…..and Thomas yells back….’what the hell is yo lo tango’?

        1. Yo lo tengo is a story I tell my family, probably more than once now, lol. It was a classic. Another Richie Ashburn story was about the time he hit many foulballs in one at bat, hit a lady and while she was taken out of the stands on a stretcher hit her again.

          1. Denny-omg ! I read a story about Whitey and this woman. Actually he became friends with her and they corresponded long after that “target” day.

            1. Really enjoy talking about and hearing stories about “His Whiteness”, Richie Ashburn. With the passing of Richie Allen, the media is replaying Allen’s homerun onto the leftfield roof at Connie Mack and Whitey was the broadcaster. Great hearing him again.

    3. Cali,

      This is fantastic, and very much appreciated.

      I only knew part of these facts and in not as much detail. I thoroughly enjoyed reading this and visually able to see it all unfold. The story about Callison needling Thomas was great, Allen laughing and Thomas reacting was classic. That is terrible that the Phillies did not stick by Allen when they didn’t let him tell his side of the story and Thomas got to tell only his side.

      I guess The Big Donkey nickname was earned by Thomas. It is also ironic that the nicest ballplayer and is also the same color as Dick Allen, was also named Frank Thomas. Didn’t the Phillies have an opportunity to draft the young Thomas?

      Keep the info coming, this is like a Christmas present to all the older Phillies Phans. Roy Sievers tomorrow.

      Jim, thank you so much for this site and allowing us to use it for our baseball pleasure. Like I have said so much in the past, I love this time of the year for baseball, even better than the season, especially if we are losing. I even enjoyed the pandemic off season before the abbreviated season began. Hope springs eternal is my fascination with Phillies baseball.

      1. The Phillies took the immortal Jeff Jackson instead of Thomas. Another toolsy player that couldn’t hit. Don’t believe he made it above Reading.

        1. What a bad decision to pick Jackson. Thomas at first with Rolen at third.Burrell in left, Abreau in RF and Lieberthal at catcher what an offensive nucleus.

    4. Much appreciated. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a year where we start out hot and maintain a 10+ game lead throughout the year without any downs. Sweep through the playoffs, 4-4-4 and get a parade. That is what I would wish for as an ideal season.

  105. CD, great story. I remembered that whole series of incidents and how Allen was not allowed to talk about what happened between Thomas and him. And, when the fans turned on him it really affected him. We have been a great fan base, but the way Allen was treated was not our finest time. John Quinn, the GM back then made a number of “questionable” decisions, history has shown that he wasn’t the most enlightened of people.

    1. With the Mets signing McCann @ 4/$40M….AAV is lowered than I would have thought…..I assumed he would be $12M AAV for 4 years.
      Nevertheless, another positive sign for a JTR return to Philly..

        1. If this free agent market continues to drag….and it won’t…Angels now sort of admit they were in on McCann but wouldn’t go more than 3 years – they were a possible JT suitor = less competition. Can you say, possibly 4 years 92 million for JT ?

          This is, LET’S MAKE A DEAL……??????

          1. If McCann can produce at a level close to what he did last year, the Mets made a far better deal. 85% of the production at half the price or less. I love Realmuto, but after they give him that contract, how are they filling the other huge holes on this team? Well that’s what the big man was brought in to figure out – I wish him good luck. This team needs some fixing.

            1. Call me irresponsible but I am not worried about over paying JT compared to McCann or any other catcher, within reason. I want our team to be in play to get the best player at every position. We pay big bucks for tickets, going to Spring Training, and merchandise so let’s see our investment put to good work.

            2. I am worried about it because it likely prevents us from doing other things we need to get done. Allocation of resources matters. Just ask Angels fans. How good was the Rendon signing in putting them over the top?

  106. Denny…did you see my Frank Thomas story above? I wrote it for you since it was your Frank Thomas day and you were looking for some tidbits. Let me know.

  107. 1964 sure was something special. I still remember every game like it was yesterday. I hope we can have something like this again.

  108. Wayne…since you indicated you remembered every game, here is one I wonder if you recall? And given the final standings, it was the difference in the pennant race though it didn’t seem so at the time. It was a late July Saturday Game of of the Week, featuring Dizzy Dean and Phil Rizzuto and featured the Cards and Phils at Connie Mack Stadium.

    Cards led the Phils 10-2 entering the bottom of the 9th when the Phil staged an incredible rally. They had scored 6 runs, making the score 10-8, with Allen on 3rd, Alex Johnson his major league debut] on 1st and still no outs when John Herrnstein absolutely crushed one to deep center field, almost 430feet away. It looked for all the world like a game tying triple, with Herrnstein only 90 feet from an amazing win.

    But Curt Flood, who was a great defensive center fielder made what he later said was the greatest catch he ever made, and to add insult to injury Johnson was thrown out at 2nd trying to advance. Of course Allen scored but it was now 10-9 and two outs. Triandos popped out and the Cards won the game…and eventually the pennant by one game.

    Do you remember, Wayne?

    1. Wow.I’m sitting here screaming at my computer for the ball to go out and then for Alex Johnson to get back to first, now I’m feeling angst just like I was there. Thank you for the fine description.

      1. I remember Alex Johnson could flat out hit. But – he couldn’t do much else period. Field, throw, run – all boxes checked NO.

    2. Hi All,

      Been religiously following this site since the James days, but have never participated in the commentary. What has finally brought me to come forward now is the back and forth regarding the 64 season. I was 16 and in 10th grade, and have been an avid Phillies fan since the mid 50’s, and my most vivid (and horrifying) memories are from that crazy season.

      Just wanted to share a few of these with you:

      Was at the Memorial weekend game vs. the Dodgers where Koufax threw a no hitter. He only yielded one baserunner (Dick Allen), who led off the 4th with a walk, but was caught stealing. Chris Short was matching him pitch for pitch for 6 innings, but after 2 Dodgers reached base to start the 7th, he gave up a titanic HR to Frank Howard (Short’s long time tormentor), which went over the left field rooftop Philco sign. Only runs scored, 3-0 final.

      Many more recollections as the season wore on, but lasting memory to this day was the 5th game of the 10 game losing streak. Another game that I was at. Phils were losing 3-1 with a runner on 1st and 2 outs in the bottom of the 8th, Caliison up. Braved brought in a lefty (Billy Hoeft, I believe) and Callision smacked the 1st pitch over the 32 foot high RF wall to tie the game. In the top of the 10th, Braves scored 2 and Phils were down to their last out. Again, Callison came through with a single. Allen then hit a long,very high fly ball towards the Ballentine scoreboard. Hank Aaron was camped under the ledge, but the ball hit that ledge, bounced up and by the time Aaron retrieved it, Allen was rounding 3rd for an inside the parker to tie it again. Unfortunately, the Braves score 2 again in the 11th and the Phils had no answer (5th straight loss).

      Lots more where these came from, but perhaps for another time.

      What was so tragic about that week was that they came home from a 6-4 West coast trip with a 6.5 game lead and, while losing 7, both the Cards (who won 7) and Red (who were 8-0, including a 5 game sweep over the Mets), both moved ahead.

      Thanks for reading; hope to read and share more reminiscing about the 64 Phils.
      l

      1. These are amazing reminisces and appreciate them. I was imagining the inside the parker by Allen and could visualize him loping around the bases. Very cool.

  109. With McCann getting 4 and 40, I don’t think there’s any chance JTR gets 5 and 100 or greater. I think teams will push for 4 years with JTR likely getting the 5th year but will have to sacrifice AAV if so. I see him getting something like 4 and 80 or 5 and 90.

    1. Middleton knows JTR underlying reasons for his stated earlier demand….set the bar a little higher for future catchers, with Mauer’s AAV as the bottom line.
      I think you can say many things about Middleton, but one thing, he is generous and loyal financially to his star players….and will honor that desire of JTR and the trade-off in this pandemic depression….a year or two less length in the contract.
      I say 4 yrs/$96M…with a 5th year vesting based on either plate appearances or games ……..that puts JTR just a notch above Mauer’s AAV.

  110. Hi All,

    Been religiously following this site since the James days, but have never participated in the commentary. What has finally brought me to come forward now is the back and forth regarding the 64 season. I was 16 and in 10th grade, and have been an avid Phillies fan since the mid 50’s, and my most vivid (and horrifying) memories are from that crazy season.

    Just wanted to share a few of these with you:

    Was at the Memorial weekend game vs. the Dodgers where Koufax threw a no hitter. He only yielded one baserunner (Dick Allen), who led off the 4th with a walk, but was caught stealing. Chris Short was matching him pitch for pitch for 6 innings, but after 2 Dodgers reached base to start the 7th, he gave up a titanic HR to Frank Howard (Short’s long time tormentor), which went over the left field rooftop Philco sign. Only runs scored, 3-0 final.

    Many more recollections as the season wore on, but lasting memory to this day was the 5th game of the 10 game losing streak. Another game that I was at. Phils were losing 3-1 with a runner on 1st and 2 outs in the bottom of the 8th, Caliison up. Braved brought in a lefty (Billy Hoeft, I believe) and Callision smacked the 1st pitch over the 32 foot high RF wall to tie the game. In the top of the 10th, Braves scored 2 and Phils were down to their last out. Again, Callison came through with a single. Allen then hit a long,very high fly ball towards the Ballentine scoreboard. Hank Aaron was camped under the ledge, but the ball hit that ledge, bounced up and by the time Aaron retrieved it, Allen was rounding 3rd for an inside the parker to tie it again. Unfortunately, the Braves score 2 again in the 11th and the Phils had no answer (5th straight loss).

    Lots more where these came from, but perhaps for another time.

    What was so tragic about that week was that they came home from a 6-4 West coast trip with a 6.5 game lead and, while losing 7, both the Cards (who won 7) and Red (who were 8-0, including a 5 game sweep over the Mets), both moved ahead.

    Thanks for reading; hope to read and share more reminiscing about the 64 Phils.
    l

    1. Dave A.
      love your stories, keep them coming and I am enjoying.

      My trip thru the 1964 season continues with my daily synopsis to my friend. I have gone thru the Catchers; Dalrymple, Triandos & Corrales.

      The IF has been; Herrnstein, Thomas, Sievers, Power, Shockley, Taylor, Rojas, Wine, Amaro, Allen & Hoak.

      In OF now, thru Covington and Gonzalez today, Callison next.

  111. Why do people bow to JT? Why is he a topic? We are not getting Sixto back. @romus 96 million dollars for that stat line?? Thats a bargain? You guys are drunk on him. For example, why do we talk about signing JT instead of Springer? Even if you say they are comparable and can’t argue either way, why is it always JT being talked about? Its because he was here i guess? Sixto? You give big bucks to a big boy bat not. He’s a big boy bat for his batless position.

    1. I do agree with you in one respect – the Sixto trade is done, gone, over. Sixto isn’t coming back.

      I do think signing JTR makes sense, but don’t overpay and compound what might end up being a bad move (the Sixto trade) by making another (overpaying JTR or giving him too many years on the deal).

  112. Sorry Ricky, Realmuto is the best C in baseball. Offensively, Defensively, any standard you pick, he is the best. If we have him long term, I don’t care about Sixto. Without him, we have Knapp and A Guy. You should be asking why anyone thinks that’s a good idea.

  113. OK compadres, moving along on my day by day by position by player for the 1964 Phillies. Have gone thru Dalrymple, Triandos, Corrales, Herrnstein & Thomas. Today is Roy Sievers and the rest of the week will be Vic Power, Costen Shockley, Tony Taylor, Cookie Rojas, Bobby Wine & Ruben Amaro, Sr.

    Any tidbits are welcome. Thanks, really enjoying the memories, and my friend is enjoying his Christmas present.

    1. Denny…..now the bad Dombro trades….and he admits to them, and the circumstances surrounding the teams he was GM for, at the time of the trades.
      All long standing GMs have their share of the good and the bad…what I hope with Dombro is the contract aspect of his duties…….more reasonable in length….AAV
      is tough since the market deems at times what it will be.

      https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/phillies/dave-dombrowski-worst-moves-randy-johnson-trade-eugenio-suarez

      1. Hopefully we don’t look back on a Vinny V trade like the Randy Johnson trade. Also, you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.

    2. Since we’re “celebrating” Roy Sievers today, a couple of first baseman tidbits:

      1B was the only position in 64 where the Phils did not have either a quality full time starter or effective platoon. Sievers started the season there, but didn’t last long. Your list identifies the main list of subsequent replacements.

      I do remember that OF Danny Cater also played a bit before he got injured mid season. Does anyone know who else might have played there for a game or two? Triandos perhaps?

      1. Nine different Phillies played first base that year (name, games, starts, innings) –

        Herrnstein – 68, 61, 487.0
        F. Thomas – 36, 36, 318.2
        Roy Sievers – 33, 31, 249.2
        R. Amaro – 58, 7, 158.1
        Vic Power – 17, 11, 116.2
        C. Shockley – 9, 9, 68.0
        Danny Cater – 7, 6, 51.0
        Gus Triandos – 1, 1, 9.0
        John Briggs – 1, 0, 2.0

        Info for all positions can be found at Baseball Reference –
        https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1964-fielding.shtml

        1. Thank you Jim. As always, appreciate the information and the referral. I am very surprised that Cookie Rojas did not play first but Amaro did.

  114. Interesting. When I look at a move, and whether it was “good” or not, I look to see what the GM knew or should have known at the time. Randy Johnson was what it was and it was a long time ago. Back then, he was like Riley Pint is now – tons of projection and no control. Hard to fault him for that. The Price and Eovaldi signings really were entirely justifiable at the time. They just had bad luck with timing and pitcher’s arms – that really wasn’t his fault or entirely forseeable.

    The Miguel Cabrera contract was terrible because Cabrera had a terrible body and it was predictable that he would regress significantly – perhaps not as fast as he did, but it was a bad contract. That said, when you have a Triple Crown winner and two-time MVP, it’s not hard to make a mistake like that. Overall,
    Suarez is just one of those players who develops well. If you’re a GM for 30 years, you’re going to have a few of those no matter how good you are. The Sale trade is still up for discussion – they gave up a lot of assets in that one.

    Dombrowski’s trade record is pretty good and it’s clear he has an eye for talent.
    The real key is whether he can balance the long-term with the short term and build a winning organization from bottom to top. You hope and pray Middleton told him that he wants – and insists upon – a championship organization not just one trophy.

    1. Well back in 2015…I remember Middleton saying, when hiring Klentak, that one thing he wanted, which was not there under the Amaro regime, was that he wants the 5- year long term pipeline established that would generate continued success and not one-time brief shots.
      Assume he made those desires known also to Dombro.
      I hope Dombro does not deplete and annihilate an already mediocre farm system.
      He said they want to win 2021….and there are key pieces already in place on the team.
      With the way free agency is right now (abudant number of players at reasonable so far)…..perhaps he will have more desire and latitude to spend then make trades from the farm. system.

    2. I was going to suggest that the contract might not be so bad if you consider he’s in the AL and could DH. But, giving an 8-year contract to a guy going into his age 33 season is a head-scratcher.

  115. Blake Snell………MLB.com’s Tim Kelly gives a few projected landing spots for Blake Snell if the Rays indeed decide to move him. And what each team’s cost will be.

    A.. Angels…..OF Jo Adell

    B. Blue Jays get: Snell and OF Margot….for: SS Jordan Groshans (MLB’s No. 70 ), C Danny Jansen, RHP Alek Manoah (Blue Jays’ No. 5 )

    C. Braves ….. OF Drew Waters (MLB’s No. 22 ), 3B/LF Austin Riley

    D. Mariners …for OF Julio Y. Rodriguez (MLB’s No. 15 ), LHP Brayan Perez (M’s’ No. 16)

    E. Mets…..for 3B/LF J.D. Davis, OF Pete Crow-Armstrong (Mets’ No. 5 ), LHP Thomas Szapucki (Mets’ No. 8 )

    F. Padres….for: C Luis Campusano (MLB’s No. 46 ), LHP Adrian Morejon, OF Jorge Oña (Padres’ No. 20 ), RHP Mason Thompson.

    G. Twins…Snell and Curtiss….for OF/1B Alex Kirilloff (MLB’s No. 27 ), LHP Devin Smeltzer, RHP Matt Canterino (Twins’ No. 11 ), C Ben Rortvedt (Twins’ No. 26 )

  116. For Denny and all those ’64 voyagers…Roy Sievers…clearly the acquistion of Sievers before the ’62 season helped the ”62 and ’63 Phillies into relevance again after too many years in the wilderness [averaged 20 HR and 81 RBI] but the 1964 version was well past his prime and he was released in mid July with a batting average of .183.

    Oh, Sievers did start the season off with a bang, hitting a first inning 3 run home run on opening night [with appropriately enough Richie Allen and Johnny Callison on base] in a 5-3 victory and homered again two days later in a 10-8 win over the Cubs. But he would hit only 2 more home runs as a Phillie and in my mind would be remembered that season more for two transgressions than any other successes.

    One was an ill begotten attempt at an inside the park home run [Sievers was a notoriously slow runner!] against Joe Nuxhall in an early season game with the Phils trailing 1-0 late in the game. Manager Gene Mauch, with an incredible memory, talked about this at length when introducing Sievers at the Phils 25 year reunion in 1989, albeit in an endearing way, though my guess is that at the time Mauch wasn’t so forgiving as he watched Sievers run his team out of a rally by getting thrown out at home with only 1 out. This would be Sievers final major league triple.

    However, the at bat I most remember from Siever’s disappointing final season in Philadelphia came in a May game at Connie Mack Stadium against the Cardinals [it seemed it was always the Cardinals that year!] The Phils led the Cardinals 2-0 in the bottom of the 5th inning when a clearly struggling Ray Sadecki, 0-3 at the time and literally one pitch from removal, faced Sievers with the bases loaded at one out. A hit here and Sadecki is likely gone and on his way to 0-4 and who knows, perhaps a ticket to Triple A.

    Not to mention a Phillie victory against a team that would eventually…oh we all know the result! Even a sac. fly would have been copacetic at the time but Sievers hit into a 3rd to 2nd to 1st double play, the Phils came up empty handed and to add insult to injury, light hitting Julian Javier hit a late game 3 run home run to give the Cards a 3-2 victory.

    So many small items came of this game, small items that would prove immense. Sadecki got his first victory in what would become a 20 win season, Mauch was angry that young Ray Culp surrendered a home run to Javier, a player Mauch felt should NEVER beat you, and the Cards began to turn around a season that was at the time careening out of control.

    As for Sievers, he was benched shortly thereafter, never to completely reclaim his spot in the middle of the Phillie batting order. Of moments like this seasons are made or lost, careers are saved or caved, and players like Culp, Javier, Sadecki and Sievers find success or failure. In 1964, the Roy Sievers story was mostly failure but his complete Phillie career was a success.

    1. Denny, Cali, 64ers,

      Ray Sadecki ==> another 1964 memory etched in my mind.

      September 10th (my birthday – took my Mom to her 1st and only game). It was the get away game before the 10 game West coast road trip (SF, Houston, LA), which directly preceded the infamous 10 game losing streak. Callison slammed a big HR and the Phils beat the Cards and a hot Sadecki 5-1).

      Left Philly 6 games up. Went 6-4 out West (2-1 vs. Giants, 2-1 and 2-2 against Colt 45s and Dodgers). Most memorable for me was losing to LA in the 16th on a steal of home (Willie Davis?).

      Back to Connie Mack with a 6.5 game lead with only 12 games remaining. Life was great. What could possibly go wrong……..

      1. Cali & Dave A thank you both so much for these memories. I really do appreciate all your hard effort.

  117. Hey Dave_A…do you remember the game the night before? Whenever I am asked about 1964 I tell the story of the Phils-Cards game on the night of Sept 9,the game that I felt turned the pennant race around. Let’s see if you remember it. David Halberstam sure did, he talked at length about the game in his best selling October 64 about the World Series between the Cardinals and Yankees.

    Cards came to Philly for a crucial 2 game series on Sept 9-10, trailing by 6 games and red hot [had won 24 of their last 32] and had knocked 5 games off the Phillies lead during that time. This was also the first game after Frank Thomas’s injury. Phils, behind Jim Bunning, knocked out Phil nemesis Curt Simmons in the 4th inning and took an early 4-1 lead. Home runs by Brock and Boyer in the 5th made the score 4-3 but the Phils kept the lead and actually increased it to 5-3 in the bottom of the 8th when ace reliever Jack Baldschun doubled in Cookie Rojas.

    Phils went into the 9th with a 2 run lead and certainly this was a game that belonged to the Phils. Not quite. With Flood on 3rd and Brock on 1st and one out in the top of the 9th, Brock took a daring chance and stole 2nd base, safe by thismuch! On the very next pitch Bill White hit a one hopper to Tony Taylor, a perfect game ending double place except for the steal. Instead, Flood scored, Brock went to 3rd and White was thrown out for the 2nd out.

    Phils were 1 strike from winning when Ken Boyer singled to center field, scoring Brock and tying the game at 5. Game went into extra innings, Cards scored 5 in the 11th and won 10-5. Lou Brock got 5 hits in the game and the Cards had cut the Phils lead league to 5 games.

    Of course the next day, the game you attended, the Phils got a brilliant play of Richie Allen to keep an early deficit at 1-0 and the Phils scored 5 runs in the bottom of the 3rd and behind Chris Short’s brilliant performance [12 strike outs!] won 5-1. It was first baseman Vic Power’s first game as a Phillie after the Thomas injury.

    The Cards later said that had they lost both games and fallen 8 back the race would have been over but instead they remained 6 behind and even though the Phils would actually pick up .5 game during their 10 game road trip to take a 6.5 game lead, it wouldn’t prove enough.

    We all know how it ended up. Because of a Lou Brock steal of 2nd in the 9th inning of an incredibly crucial game!

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