Box Score Recap – 8/9/2017

Lehigh Valley romped and the GCL Phillies swept a double header.  The rest of the affiliates dropped their games.

The IronPigs’ Eshelman pitched well and the offense was provided on 4 long balls from Kingery, Crawford, Pullin, and Hoskins.

Reading rallied to tie, but Jeff Singer couldn’t keep the Phils in the game.

Clearwater could only score one run in a 14-inning loss.

Lakewood dug a hole and couldn’t climb all the way out.

Williamsport dropped an extra inning game.

And, the GCL Phillies out-pitched their opponent in both games of a double header.

Lehigh Valley (68-49)  beat Norfolk, 11-5.

Tom Eshelman out-pitched former Phillies’ hurler Alec Asher.  He pitched six innings and gave up just one run.  Cesar Ramos (3.71) gave up 2 runs in an inning.  Michael Mariot (4.72) pitched a clean inning.  Joe DeNato (6.23) gave up 2 runs in the ninth inning.

The IronPigs built their lead with 2 runs in the third inning to take the lead on solo home runs by Scott Kingery (6) and J.P. Crawford (13).  They stretched their lead to five runs in the fourth on Rhys Hoskins’ 2-run double and Brock Stassi’s two-out, 2-run double.  They put the game away with 5 runs in the seventh on Andrew Pullin’s 2-run HR and Hoskins’ 3-run HR (29).

Kingery, Hoskins, Stassi (.275), and Pullin each banged out 3 hits.

  • #3: Kingery (.300): went  3-5 with 3 runs scored, HR (6), RBI (16)
  • #4: Crawford (.233): went 2-5 with 2 runs scored, HR (13), RBI (50), K
  • #5: Alfaro (.241): promoted to Philadelphia
  • #6: Hoskins (.284): went 3-5 with 2 runs scored, double, HR (29), 5 RBI (91)
  • #8: Williams (.280):  has exceeded the 130 PA limitation for prospect status
  • #11: Cozens (.219): went 0-4 with a BB, 3 K
  • #12: Quinn (.274): 7-Day DL
  • #17: Pinto (5-3, 4.11):
  • #28: Lively (7-3, 2.62): (39 days/42.2 IP w/Phils) 
  • Pullin (.237): went 3-5 with a run scored, HR (4), 2 RBI (16)
  • Eflin (1-3, 4.10): promoted to Philadelphia
  • #31: Eshelman (8-3, 2.78): 6.0 IP, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 5 K
  • Leibrandt (4-1, 3.14): 
  • Therrien (0-0, 1.57): promoted to Philadelphia
  • Taveras (1-0, 0.00):

Reading (60-54)  lost to Altoona, 6-4.

Elniery Garcia made his 2017 debut.  He tossed four innings and allowed a run on 3 hits and a walk.  He struck out two.  Garcia faced 16 batters and threw 66 pitches, 36 strikes (54.5%).  Ranfi Casimiro (3.94) pitched one inning and gave up 2 unearned runs.  After the Phils fought back to tie the game, Jeff Singer (0-1, 9.64) gave up 3 runs in two innings and got the loss.  Tom Windle (4.78) pitched a clean inning.

The Phils fought back to tie the game in the sixth inning on Angelo Mora’s RBI single, Cord Sandberg’s SF, and Zack Coppola’s SF.  They scored a run in the eighth on a wild pitch but couldn’t get any closer.

Damek Tomscha (.274) and Deivi Grullon (.273) had 2 hits each.

Elniery Garcia picked a runner off first base.

Clearwater (61-55)  lost to Tampa, 2-1 in 14 innings.

After taking an 11-4 lead in the series opener against the Yankees, the Threshers have been outscored 12-1 over the next 28 innings.

JoJo Romero held the Tankees to 1 run in six innings on 4 hits and a walk.  Aaron Brown (0.00), J.D. Hammer (0.00), Trevor Bettencourt (0.69), and Seth McGarry (1.79) held the Yankees to one hit over the next six innings.  Tyler Gilbert (0-5, 3.04) entered in the 13th inning and worked around a lead off single and a sacrifice bunt.  He wasn’t as fortunate after a lead off double in the 14th and took the loss without retiring a batter in the inning.

The Threshers scored their only run in the sixth inning on force out.

They went 0-11 with RISP, stranded 12 runners, and struck out 25 times.  Four Threshers struck out 4 times, and another one 3 times.  Everyone struck out at least once.  Wilson Garcia had 3 hits, Austin Bossart two.

Cornelius Randolph was not in the line up.

  • #2: Sanchez (0-1, 7.50):
  • #14: Randolph (.252): DNP
  • #16: Suarez: (2-2, 1.78):
  • #18: Romero (2-2, 2.10): 6.0 IP, 4 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 1 K
  • #19 Gomez: (.231): went 1-5 with a BB, 2 K
  • #24 Mills: (0-0, 1.80):
  • #30: Ed. Garcia (3-4, 4.16): 7-Day DL
  • Arauz: (4-2. 1.88):
  • Singer: (5-2, 2.45): promoted to Reading
  • Dominguez: (3-2, 2.47): 
  • McGarry: (1-1, 1.79): 2.0 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 1 K

Lakewood (60-56) lost to West Virginia, 8-5.

Mauricio Llovera gave up 6 runs on 11 hits in four innings.  He did strike out seven and walked none.  Addison Russ struck out 3 in two scoreless innings.  Ismael Cabrera gave up 2 runs in two innings.

Lakewood scored a run in the third inning on Raul Rivas’ RBI single.  They added two runs in the fifth on Arquimedes Gamboa’s SF and a wild pitch.  They pulled to within one run with 2 more runs in the sixth on a fielding error and Gregori Rivero’s SF.

Raul Rivas (.288) and Darick Hall (.271) had 2 hits each.

Jesus Alastre had an outfield assist (second base).  Colby Fitch picked a runner off first.

  • #1: Moniak (.251): went 0-4 with a K
  • #2: Sanchez (5-3, 2.41): promoted to Clearwater
  • #10: Medina (4-7, 3.14):
  • #20: Brito (.237): went 0-4
  • Gamboa (.232): went 0-3 with an RBI, K, SF
  • Hall (.271): went 2-4 with a run scored, double, K
  • Lartigue (.270): 7-Day DL
  • Alastre (.333) went 1-3, with a run scored, K, sac 
  • Williams (.222): went 1-2 with 2 runs scored, 2 BB, SB (23)
  • (#9) Zoellner: 7-Day DL, (still in Clearwater)
  • (#13) Fitch (.368): went 1-4 with 2 K
  • (#17) Listi (.238) went 1-4 with a run scored, K
  • Falter (6-6, 3.21):
  • #32: Fanti (7-2, 2.76):
  • Llovera (1-2, 2.55): 4.0 IP, 11 H, 5 R, 6 ER, 0 BB, 7 K
  • (#15) Al. Garcia: 7-Day DL (still in Clearwater)
  • (#19) Russ (0-1, 4.11): 2,0 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 3 K
  • Requena (9-4, 2.74):

Williamsport (24-21)  lost to Staten Island, 3-2 in 11 innings.

Andrew Brown went six innings and gave up 2 runs on 6 hits.  He walked none and struck out two.  Randy Alcantara (1.82) pitched four shutout innings.  Kyle Dohy loaded the bases with a walk, hit batter, wild pitch, and intentional walk.  He took the loss when the Cutters couldn’t turn a potential, inning-ending double play.

Williamsport built an early lead with single runs in the second and third innings on a Malvin Matos’ RBI double and Greg Pickett’s the home run.

The Crosscutters struck out 16 times.  They turned 3 double plays.

  • #7: (#1) Haseley (.291): went 1-5 with a double
  • #13: Gowdy (still in Clearwater)
  • #15: Stobbe (.182): went 0-4 with a BB, 4 K
  • #22: Ortiz (.283): DNP
  • #23: (#2) Howard: (0-1, 4.61):
  • Pickett (.292): went 1-3 with a run scored, HR (4), RBI, 2 BB, 2 K
  • Stephen (.259): went 1-5 with a K
  • (#4) Scheiner (.248): went 1-5 with a K, SB
  • (#6) Guthrie (still in Clearwater)
  • (#7) Maton (.271): went 1-5 with 2 K
  • (#13) Fitch (.350): promoted to Lakewood
  • (#17) Listi (.293): promoted to Lakewood
  • (#22) Mims (.250): went 1-5 with a run scored, 2 K
  • (#25) Azuaje (.267): DNP
  • Young (5-0, 1.81):
  • Stewart (4-1, 3.15): 
  • J. Garcia (3-3, 3.55):
  • Carrasco (2-0, 2.61): promoted to Lakewood
  • An. Brown (2-3, 3.32): 6.0 IP, 6 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 0 BB, 2 K
  • (#3) Seabold (2-0, 0.90):
  • (#10) Brogdon (1-0, 2.84): 
  • (#12) Parkinson (0-0, 3.21):
  • (#14) Warren (0-2, 5.40):
  • (#16) Dohy (1-1, 3.48): 0.2 IP, 0 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 2 BB, 0 K
  • (#18) Jones (0-2, 4.09): 

GCL Phillies (24-14) swept a double header from the GCL Tigers East, 3-2 and 5-3.

Game One:  Jhordany Mezquita picked up his first professional win with five solid innings.  He allowed 2 runs on 4 hits and a walk.  Anton Kuznetsov picked up his second save with two, 3-hit innings.  He started both innings with lead off doubles.  The first was stranded at second and the second was thrown out at the plate on an ensuing single.

The Phillies scored the go ahead run in the first inning on Quincy Nieporte’s RBI force out. They scored twice more, staying just ahead of the Tigers, on Lenin Rodriguez’ lead off HR (1) in the second and Danny Mayer’s RBI single in the fourth.

Danny Mayer (.229) had a 2-hit game.

Lenin Rodriguez picked a runner off second.  Ben Pelletier had an outfield assist (home).

  • Guzman (.290): went 1-4 with a K
  • Pelletier (.319): went 1-3 with a K 
  • (#24) Markham (.164): went 1-2 with a run scored, 2 BB, SB
  • (#26) Nieporte (.311): went 0-4 with an RBI
  • (#27) Gurrola (.346): went 1-3 with a run scored, double
  • (#31) Mayer (.229): went 2-3 with an RBI, K
  • (#39) Stewart (.150): went 0-3
  • (#8) Mezquita (1-0, 1.25): 5.0 IP, 4 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 2 K
  • Kuznetsov (2-0, 0.00): 2.0 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 1 K

Game Two:  Victor Sobil pitched four solid innings holding the Tigers to 1 run on 4 hits and 2 walks.  He struck out five.  Denny Martinez (3-2, 2.70) picked up the win with two shutout innings.  Oscar Marcelino (1.86) gave up 2 runs in his one inning to make the score close.

The Phillies took the lead with a 4-run fourth inning on Brayan Gonzalez’ 3-run HR (2) and Keudy Bocio’s RBI single.  They scored an insurance run in the fifth on Gonzalez’ RBI single.

Brayan Gonzalez had 2 hits and 4 RBI.  Ben Pelletier had 3 hits.

Here’s the affiliate scoreboard from MiLB.


  • 8/9 – Reading Fightin Phils activated LHP Elniery Garcia from the restricted list
  • 8/9 – RHP Ramon Rosso assigned to Williamsport Crosscutters from GCL Phillies
  • 8/8 – Phillies recalled RHP Zach Eflin from Lehigh Valley IronPigs
  • 8/8 – Reading Fightin Phils activated C Chace Numata from the 7-day disabled list
  • 8/8 – C Austin Bossart assigned to Clearwater Threshers from Reading Fightin Phils
  • 8/8 – Clearwater Threshers placed RHP Edgar Garcia on the 7-day disabled list
  • 8/8 – Clearwater Threshers placed 3B Jose Antequera on the 7-day disabled list retroactive to August 7, 2017
  • 8/8 – Lakewood BlueClaws placed CF Carlos Duran on the temporarily inactive list
  • 8/8 – Luis Carrasco assigned to Lakewood BlueClaws from Williamsport Crosscutters
  • 8/8 – RHP Mauricio Llovera assigned to Lakewood BlueClaws from Williamsport Crosscutters
  • 8/8 – RHP Alejandro Requena assigned to Williamsport Crosscutters from Lakewood BlueClaws
  • 8/8 – Elniery Garcia issued #8 on the Reading roster, although on rehab assignment still listed as on Restricted List
  • 8/7 – Phillies placed C Andrew Knapp on the 10-Day DL retroactive to August 4, 2017. Bruised right hand
  • 8/7 – Reading Fightin Phils placed RHP Alberto Tirado on the 7-Day DL retroactive to August 5, 2017. Right shoulder strain
  • 8/7 – Clearwater Threshers activated SS Jose Gomez from the 7-day disabled list
  • 8/7 – CF Carlos Duran assigned to Lakewood BlueClaws from Clearwater Threshers
  • The organization’s rosters are up to date.
  • The organization’s injury list is as up to date as I can make it.
  • The organization’s Rule 5 eligibility list is as accurate as I can make it based on the information I was able to find.

161 thoughts on “Box Score Recap – 8/9/2017

  1. Hoskins devouring AAA pitching. Imagine a premier power prospect being blocked by a below replacement level first baseman. Anyway, don’t want to beat a dead horse; I know we all feel the same way around here.

    Love seeing Haseley crank it up after struggling a bit — 9 game hitting streak.

    Crawford & Kingery seem to be feeding off each other at the 1 & 2 spots.

      1. Some reason a reporter Wathan the AAA manager if Hoskins will be in LV today . He said it looks like it.

    1. I can’t understand why they want to put their future first baseman in left. Why not put TJ on the bench or out in left. Nothing he will do between now and the end of the year is going to change his trade value. He is what he is. Focus on the future.

      1. Yes, I wrote about this the other day. It’s more of the Phillies completely not comprehending a player’s value and not understanding the marketplace – the same thought process that left us with 2 or 3 years of Ryan Howard painfully playing out the string and Hellickson being retained. Hoskins playing left is better than him not being promoted at all, but it’s just a bunch of foolish shenanigans as far as I’m concerned. Put Hoskins at first 80 percent of the time (or more) and get on with it. Stop deluding yourself that ToJo has some secret value that additional playing time will unlock. So foolish.

        1. Maybe it is some sort of rite of passage for MLB first basemen…..Belt, Votto, Adrian Gonzalez all had their brief OF experiences in their careers.

          1. Yup, but some people just want to complain that Phillies seem to be doing something different. If it gets Hoskins’ bat in the lineup, IDC what the Phillies do. They can stick him at 3B for all I care. There is a reason why they have FO jobs and we are armchair GMs.

            1. Did you watch the Braves series? Did you see Matt Adams in LF? It was brutal. I don’t want to see Hoskins like that.

            2. I want to see Hoskins figure out major league pitching without also having to play a position he hasn’t seen more than a couple of games of since he became a professional.

            3. Hoskins has played almost 80 games in the OF….but none since 2013’s summer Cape Cod experiences.

        2. Don’t think it has anything to do with not understand Joseph’s value.

          They want to promote Hoskins and they have a shortage of Outfielders right now. Of the two of them, I expect Hoskins has a better chance of playing LF than does Joseph so they are trying to get both bats in the lineup. Not unlike Schwarber with the Cubs a couple of years ago.

          Starting 2018, Hoskins should be manning 1b and Joseph should be playing somewhere else. If that’s not the case, then I’ll have some issues with the approach..

            1. Legacy – Rhys has most certainly played OF in his life. In fact, he played some at college.

    2. Don’t wanna beat a dead horse? This horse has been kicked so many times you cannot tell it’s a horse anymore.

      But TJ although replaceable is not below average. Hes not much above average either. It’s a difficult position for the Phillies. But it’s understandable also wether we like it or not.

      1. Yes, he is below average. He’s a below replacement level player, although, admittedly he may have some additional upside and is controllable. The bottom line is that he has virtually no value in the marketplace and that is extremely unlikely to change between now and the end of the year. Therefore, playing him at Hoskins’ expense makes no sense if you believe, as I do, that Hoskins has a much higher upside. You have to make way for talent in professional sports.

        1. How about we judge the situation after Rhys hits MLB pitching. An opening became available for him. He will have to prove himself to supplant Joseph. Joseph mashed in AAA and was one heck of a prospect back in the day. Calm down.

          1. He only mashed for 100 PA’s, while Hoskins did it for nearly 500 PA’s, had over triple the walk rate, more power, and wasn’t riding an inflated BABIP. I think it’s safe to say Hoskins is better than Joseph

  2. I can’t believe that Crawford is forcing his way to the majors after the start he had. Kudos to him. Hitting .262/.371/.487 over the last 90 days (310 PAs). Ton of power and basically a 1:1 K/BB ratio.

    1. i realize crawford was starting to heat up and canelo was slumping before Kingery got promoted to Lehigh Valley, but Crawford has gone from 205/310/274 to 233/345/405 since Kingery joined him, while while Canelo has gone from 244/327/368 to 228/305/350. All coincidence?

      1. Kingery is interesting because after all of the talk about him on this site earlier in the season, he sort of fell off the discussion radar.. He’s made a very smooth transition from AA to AAA…

        1. Kingery’s blast last night went out over right field….good opposite field power or perhaps more of a stroke than power.

            1. I have to give you some credit roccom

              that was funny

              1 out of every thousand or so posts, you say something funny or smart. today was the day…

          1. I’ve been a big fan of Kingery for the longest time now. The kid really knows how to play the game. Granted no one saw his power surge coming, but his instincts have always been off of the charts

        2. What is there to discuss concerning Kingery? He is ready, I think it is a foregone conclusion. He went from AA to AAA and never missed a beat. Only thing that is to be determined is when the FO navigates the moves.

    2. I have to say, while I have lingering concerns about the depth and causes of JP Crawford’s slump this spring, you have to marvel at the way in which he has pulled himself out of that funk.

      Most prospects struggle at some point. The really good prospects use that struggle as a means to evolve and improve. This is precisely what JP did – re-tooling his swing so that he was less defensive and started driving the ball. Since the beginning of July, his OPS is over 1000 and, frankly, right now, due to the power surge he’s playing at higher level than he ever played at before.

      His plate discipline is elite and always should be. If it turns out that hitting for power lowers his hit tool from a 55+ to a 50, but his power goes from 30-50/55, it’s a great trade off. His start was so bad that nobody in the general media is talking about him, but they should be. He’s probably almost ready for the big leagues and, if not, he’s very, very close.

      The same goes with Kingery who is doing everything I’d like to see him do except draw a few more walks, but I think that might come as he adjusts to AAA. Scott Kingery has an Utley-like drive to succeed – he can will himself to do things you wouldn’t think he could do. I LOVE him as a prospect and player. He is the definition of a winner and, as teams grow, they need players like that because they become the leaders.

  3. Asher and Logan were Mlb Pitchers.not good ones LV went crazy on those two. Singer getting lit up by AA pitching. Man Clearwater K’d 25 times in1 game.

  4. Did I read that correctly Jim, 25 strikeouts in a single game? I really hope that is a typo and should have read 15, which is still a lot but 25?!?! My lord . . .

    1. I should prob. read deeper, totally missed that it was a 14 inning game. Still a high number but not as bad as first thought.

  5. Cozens is having trouble with AAA pitching. In his last 10 games, he’s hitting .094 with 18 Ks and no HRs or RBIs. His last HR was on July 22, as was his last RBI. The last time he had an extra base hit was July 22. If you’re looking for a small silver lining, it would be that he’s had 8 BBs in his last 10 games.

    1. I was just going to post what you wrote concerning Cozens but I didn’t want to be labeled negative. ha ha.

      Eshelman has had 8 quality starts in his last 10 games. Pitched at least 6 innings in 9 of them and allowed 3 or less ERs in 8. Last night he threw 62 strikes out of 77 pitches. In last 10 starts he has issued 8 BB’s while striking out 47 in 64.1 IP.

  6. Is there any guy, in the organization, hotter than Pelletier? He’s hit .486 in his last 10 games and he’s hit in 17 of his last 18 games. I’d like to see him move up to Wmsprt to see if his hot streak translates.

  7. Bellman the only person hotter that I could think of is my good friend romus. he is hot with the ladies. but Romus like this kid when he was signed. we need jim to tell us about him

    1. rocco……Phillies have seem to find some early HS gems in the lower portions of their drafts lately, especially in the northeast portion of the US and maybe with Pelletier into Canada. Good scouting perhaps.
      Also…..did you skip your meds this morning?

      1. @romus – Pelletier didn’t play in the year he was drafted. does this delay his clock for Rule V? in the spreadsheet put together by Jim, he’s up by 2019 – the same year as the other HS prospects drafted in 2015.

        1. KuKo….who knows the rules specifically state:
          “Players are eligible for selection in the Rule 5 draft who are not on their major league organization’s 40-man roster and:
          -18 or younger on the June 5 preceding their signing and this is the fifth Rule 5 draft upcoming; or
          – were 19 or older on the June 5 preceding their signing and this is the fourth Rule 5 draft upcoming.”
          Now his birth date is August 22, 1998.
          ….Jim will have to ask the guys down there in CLW……I know the question came up last year with Simon Muzziotti and it was deemed a year later than what i thought, under his circumstance, when Jim asked one of the Phillies officials last year..

          1. looks like the key word is “signing” and based on Jim’s 2015 Draft Tracker, Pelletier was signed on 7/9/15 so he is < 18 yo, thus 5 yrs = 2019.

            Although this is throwing me off "this is the fifth Rule 5 draft upcoming" so if Pelletier skipped 2015 does it mean his 5 ys = 2020?

            Just confused.

            1. KuKo…that makes sense.
              Jim should be able to easily determine the year just by checking with one of the Phillies officials down there. And actaully Ben Pelletier himself, would probably know when he is first eligible.

  8. When MK looks at the way JP/Scotty and Freddy/CeHe are playing right now do you think he gets any sleep?

    1. DMAR – complete the future INF line up === Hoskins – Scotty – JPC – Machado. MK can almost sniff 3/4 of that INF and in the position to go 4/4.

      Cesar has been ripped because of his boneheaded plays, but it is Kingery’s potential (at least to me) that is really pushing him out of the door.

    2. MK and AM should take some advice from Pat Gillick. When it came to organizing a roster, moving guys along who were clogging the system (Bobby Abreu) and promoting young players even at the expense of valued veterans (Jim Thome), few showed the wizardry of Pat Gillick. Yes, the team should be focused on recouping value, but they are now close to second full step of the rebuild (identifying and locking in core players) and they need to clear the way for future stars.

      It’s a hard balance where the team is not flush with grade A or near grade A prospects (although they have three of them right before their eyes in Kingery, Crawford and Hoskins and still can’t figure out quite what to do), but they need to make some sensible decisions and move forward. This starts now with getting real about ToJo – the delay that’s occurring now is moronic.

      1. I think he tried to move them along. He tried trading Cesar last year too. I don’t think he wanted to just give them away. We can come back to this after the off-season. If Hernandez is still here along with TJ we have a lot of questions to ask. I can understand Galvis staying with Crawford starting the year at AAA and coming up after a few months and galvis being super sub

        1. I don’t mean he should move everyone. I’d be very hesitant and slow to move Cesar. I’m thinking more about ToJo and, to a somewhat less urgent extent, Galvis. It’s possible that Cesar stays and Kingery plays third or visa versa.

          1. There’s no way TJ is here next year even if Hoskins plays a passable LF we have too many outfielders. But there’s no reason to just dump him, MK is justg trying to show he’s worth a warm body to another team. He’s still cheap and holds his own. I agree about the rest, but think they will either stick with Franco next year or go FA eventually at 3b

    3. He should be. It’s a good problem to have for a GM when you have good young controllable ML players (Hernandez more than Galvis) and good young controllable AAA players ready to be promoted..

      He should be able to use a couple of them to fill some other holes this off-season

    4. I think he doesn’t get much sleep currently because ToJo has revealing pictures of him , which is keeping Hoskins at AAA…

    5. this is more of an observation and not a fact – i think there’s certain intangibles created since Hoskins-Kingery-JPC played and win together and are going thru the growing pains together. I’m not comparing the trio to the last great core of Howard-Utley-JRoll but i can see some parallels into it. The Phils traded Thome and Polanco in 2005 to give way to Howard and Utley and JRoll becomes the JRoll pretty much when the Howard-Utley were called up. Then in 2006, Cole and Chooch joined the crew and the Phils starts winning.

      The current core of Cesar-Galvis-Doobie-Franco are playing for 2 years now and I haven’t seen that core really step up and carry a team that’s the reason why I want to turn the page and start a new one – and new core who are playing and winning together.

      1. Thome was 34, making big money, and had an injury plagued year which led him to have one of his poorest offensive years of his career. Howard was 25 and had spent parts of 2 seasons in AAA feasting on minor league pitching. It was an easy decision.

        Now Placido was still relatively productive for the Phillies. But Chase Utley had spent parts of 3 seasons at AAA (more than 1000 ABs), there wasn’t much left for Chase Utley to do.

        TJ has not been terrible, is only 26, and making peanuts. Hoskins has been productive in his only year at AAA, and he’s only 2 years younger than TJ.

        Cesar is having the best OPS of his career, is only 27, and not making much. Kingery has only had 172 ABs at AAA.

        I can understand why MK is taking his time with his decisions.

        1. yeah i understand that McKlentak duo is moving at a deliberate phase but I will put aside $$ because the financial situation is different.

          Ed Wade built the last great Phillies core and basically the foundation is based on solid scouting and actual physical abilities. In the the analytics age, people rather sit in their computer and run thru various databases and find answers.

      2. KK,

        I absolutely 100 percent agree.

        We’ve gotten very attached to an infield that is a last-place team. The worst won-lost record in the MLB. We need to distance ourselves from this as fans and get some perspective.

        As much as I like the guys there now, and their stories, they aren’t the future core.

        Now, Odubel might be the keeper.

      1. Over a large (read multi season) sample size it is important. But a single season’s batting average weighed down by a bad month is meaningless.

      2. Batting average is basically a meaningless stat. OPS is a much more important offensive measure.

        I’d rather have a player hitting .250 who takes walks and hits for power vs. a .300 singles hitter with a .310 on-base %

        Isn’t that the reason why most don’t consider Tocci a top prospect?

          1. A corollary lesson from Revere. For hitters without power high OBP in the minors does not translate in the majors as pitchers have better command and control and will challenge weak hitters rather than walk them.

        1. I agree that OPS is a more indicative measure than BA, but OBP is really important for a lead-off or 2nd place hitter. Also for an 8th place – and even more so if the team uses the inverted order at the bottom of the line-up: Pitcher in 8th position and the quasi lead-off guy in 9th. The exemplar of this kind of player is the late Eddie Stanky, who had a career OPB of .410 – and a total career WAR of 39.3 – about 3.6 per season. (Being old may suck at times, but it’s better than not getting old, and it is excellent for perspective).

      3. JP has been hovering around 1.000 OPS recently. However you want to slice it up between OBP and SLG, that’s what I’m looking at for how a player’s trending.

        WAR is all Greek to me, sorry.

  9. On another note, I noticed that most are hesitant on trading Cesar (high on base 2B will below ave baseball IQ) because mostly of his WAR (which i’m NOT a believer). Case in point is Polanco who i think is a better player than Cesar after all said and one. The Phils traded Polanco (for scrubs) to give way to a better player in Chase Utley. Polanco became one of the top 2B in the game during his time in DET this doesn’t stop the Phils from winning with Chase Utley as their 2B.

    I understand that Kingery is not Utley “you’re the man”, but Kingery is similar to Utley the 1st time the Phils called up Utley back in 2004.

    For WAR supporters, you can check Polanco’s WAR after the Phils traded him.

    1. The Polanco trade was stupid because it was a bad trade standing alone and because there was no reason Polanco could not have played third. Polanco really wasn’t blocking Utley.

      But somehow you’ve worked in your WAR angle – at least it’s predictable!

      1. @catch – without hindsight Polanco is a 2B during that time. it’s easy to say they move him to 3B because Polanco eventually played 3B late in his career.

        the trade is not stupid. the Phils is winning and eventually win the world series. the Polanco trade is not is any reason why the Phils did not win the world series again.

      2. hey catch – we can still agree to disagree but don’t ever think that “i don’t like you”. i will miss you when Cesar will be traded this offseason…lol!!

        1. I still don’t know why you would trade the known commodity opposed to the unknown commodity ESP when the ceilings aren’t THAT much different in terms of value. You keep the known and you look to move the unknown for something else you might need, let another team take the risk, we don’t need to when we have a perfectly viable option already on the roster. And a top 5-7 option at that. I know this is an opinion that is held by the minority but it’s def my opinion.

      3. Calling it bad trade standing alone requires a bit of hindsight. We don’t know what Urbina might have done if he didn’t end up in prison.

    2. Agreed WAR is dumb but you keep harping on Cesar’s bonehead plays I can’t remember any bonehead instances this season. He’s matured nicely as far as I’m concerned.

      I am open to trading him of course but not for scrubs. I can move Kingery to the OF before I do that.

      1. @DMAR – did i say any boneheaded plays in my earlier post? I did say below average baseball IQ. If you don’t agree that cesar has below ave baseball IQ, that’s fine.

        i haven’t been harping on Cesar for a while now since everybody already knows that he is in my #1 To Trade List since last year. That’s why i got hammered a lot when Cesar is playing better than expected in the beginning of the season.

        1. I Am big Caesar fan. Keep saying he is a really good player. said it for two years. But you still have the people wanting to trade him for a unproven kid. And a lot of you say Cesar wont bring back much. crazy/

          1. roccom chooses weird mountains to die on

            still holding onto this hernandez vs kingery thing is great, its classic roccom

            1. why are you getting on to him about Cehe? Because it’s not your opinion? Honestly, CeHe is a pretty damn good player. If Kingery doesn’t get called up, I won’t be disappointed.

            2. Gunn I want you to realize if you trade Hernandez and kingery isn’t the player you and a lot of others think he is. then what. The weird mountains to die on what the hell is that.

          2. We won’t know what he is capable of bringing in trade until he is traded (or possibly if a trade is almost finalized)

      2. @DMAR – definitely not for scrubs. But 2Bs normally don’t provide that much value in trade return. One of Cesar and Kingery need to change position if the Phils decided to keep both of them. I don’t see Cesar having positional flexibility unlike Galvis and Cesar will be exposed defensively outside 2B (remember I said below ave baseball IQ). Kingery can go to the OF but the Phils needs power in both corners so the logical choice is CF – so what to do with Doobie (another Phils i like to trade).

        1. Yes we need power in the corners or it can come from a new 3B or Hoskins or the other corner.

          In our Jetsons world we want all of these ?’s answered today and its not going to be known for quite a few months.

    3. They didn’t trade Polanco to make way for Utley. They moved Polanco to 3B. The Polanco trade was separate.

        1. Yeah, so ESPN saw it differently. The bottom line is that he played third and second and Utley only played second so, if they wanted to keep both guys they could have. What was really going on was that they didn’t want to pay both Polanco and the immoral David Bell to man third and Ed Wade “solved” that problem by obtaining evil Ugueth Urbina to the man the closer’s spot.

          1. @catch – did you read the whole article? Maybe Ed Wade and Cholly did not foresse that Polanco can play a decent 3B the same way we see Cesar can’t play 3B. But everybody is a genius after the fact, right? Bottom line, the Phils started winning ways after this move.

            “Polanco, who platooned with Utley and started at three other positions, is batting .316 with three homers and 20 RBI.”

            “Polanco had his best season last year, hitting .298 with a career-high 17 homers and 55 RBI in 126 games.”

            “But the Phillies planned to make Utley their regular starter going into this season and were surprised when Polanco accepted arbitration and signed a $4.6 million, one-year contract in December.”

            “So Manuel used Polanco at second base against left-handed pitchers and also gave him some starts at third base, shortstop and left field.”

            1. Did you watch the Phillies during that time? I did. Polanco was acquired, in large part, to play third base and he did. So they knew he could play third. They moved him to second because he could play there and he was more valuable as a second baseman. Utley made him unneeded at second, but he was a WAY better choice at third than David Bell, but they saw a glut at second and third and decided to move him. The bottom line is that they didn’t want to pay two third basemen so they decided to move Polanco, but, truly, he and Utley could have co-existed just fine on the same diamond.

            2. As they did when he was re-acquired by the Phillies in later years to – get this – play third!

            3. @catch – really? you doubt that i don’t watch the Phils? common on man!

              i agree with the David Bell though and the Phils not wanting to pay Polanco. To not play Polanco at 3B full time is the call of the FO. But the mind set from the time Utley was called up in 2004 – the Phils is looking at Chase Utley and roll with it. As good as Polly is, Ed Wade know his core team and build it.

              With hindsight again, yes, that could have been awesome to keep Polly and play 3rd. Same thing when Cliff Lee was initially traded post 2009 which left a bitter taste up to know because Cliff Lee can probably help in 2010 run.

          2. This is correct. It was more Polanco vs Bell and Polanco had more trade value so off he went.

      1. They stupidly traded Polanco because they had given guaranteed money to David Bell, who was total crap. They had to keep Bell and make room for Utley, which was very stupid. They should have sat Bell’s butt down and moved Polanco to third. That’s why it took so long for Utley to get to Philly, because they were hung up on crappy David Bell’s guaranteed money.

    4. I cant agree with you on the WAR thing, BUT i do agree Polanco way better player than Hernandez and I have no hesitation at all trading Hernandez. I’m actually looking forward to it. Having said that, I don’t want to rush the Hernandez trade, I want to maximize his trade value sometime between now and next May

      Side note: Cesar hernandez and his stat profile would have been much more well received in 1985. Now that we know more about stats and have seen the rise of power numbers and offensive numbers in general at 2B position, only guys like roccom still fall for guys like Hernandez

      1. Tommy I don’t have to take a moron like you, questioning my options. what the hell do you know. Like your a expert. your a moron with no class. to make a comment like that. shame your parents had to raise a idido like you they would have been better raising a dog. it would have more manners. WHAT a ass

        1. wow, you’re more snappy than v1again. i should be happy that you are still nice to me.

        2. things roccom calls me in one post while stating i have no class:

          moron with no class
          Idido (im assuming this was supposed to mean idiot?)
          parents wouldve been better raising a dog

          name calling instances by me:

  10. i’m not a fan of playing Hoskins in LF, but 2017 is a lost season anyway. if there’s a time that the Phils need to find out something this is the right time. My main consideration for Hoskins is to see him at bat against MLB pitchers. 1B/LF doesn’t matter as long as he is called up and start getting some MLB experience. We already know that Hoskins is a competent 1B defensively. The LF experiment is just an experiment to provide flexibility. As long as this move (Hoskins to LF) is temporary, this should be fine. Hoskins will be playing 1B in 2018 on wards – that’s the bigger picture to me.

  11. I’m thinking Glavis or JPC could play 3rd & provide more value than Franco. What are thoughts regarding that scenario?

    1. this will depend on the whole composition of the team. If there’s enough offense around, Galvis can play 3rd and keep JPC at SS. But i can see Franco still playing 3B full time in 2018 until the Phils acquire better option (Machado).

        1. Galvis is more superior defensively than JPC and probably more superior than 90% of SS in the league. Granted that there might be growing pains but JPC is not that far behind. Galvis’ defensive versatility will help him to adjust to 3B easier than JPC and he already played 3B before.

          Looking at it in a small picture, Galvis is the better SS. But bigger picture, it might create some hole.

          In 3B Galvis, SS JPC == that has a look of a solid defensive left side of the infield.

          In 3B JPC, SS Galvis == there will be ?? in the 3B side.

          It is just me, but i like the 1st option than the 2nd.

          1. I don’t get to see all the shortstops. but I cant imagine too many that field better, than freddy. Its a shame because if he had a better obp he could become one of the top all around guys, His numbers in 1000 less at bats are as good or better than Crawford for sf. who a lot think is one of the top guys.

            1. rocco…..look at you, “if he had a better obp he could become one of the top all around guys”…..that is so analytical speak! 🙂

      1. KuKo, I believe the 3B for the future playoff team is not presently in the organization. I want Klentak to be positive he can acquire Machado, I am not so sure by the way, or I want him to go after Josh Donaldson. The Blue Jays will be entering a rebuild and Donaldson is the guy I want. Galvis and JPC do not have 3B skills.

        1. @matt13 – you read my mind. my earlier post is just to answer 64pfan’s hypothetical question. but you already know that i’ve been drumming that Machado drum since the beginning.

        2. I have espoused on ad nausea occasions, .I like to see MattK be aggressive this winter at the meetings and go for Manny then , perhaps sign and trade deal with the Os…of course, if Manny refuses the Os extension offer.
          The one issue I can see now rearing its ugly head….Dan Duquette may be getting the axe.after the season….so that would put things into a more murkier setting.

          1. I agree Romus. The plans need to begin this off season, not the next one. If the O’s go into the season with Machado, he then gets dealt at the deadline. There is not much chance the Phils will be in on him at that point. So, we have to hope he does not like the contender he gets traded to. If we can trade for him at the Winter Meetings, that is great, but if not, I go strong for Donaldson. .

            1. Donaldson , I assume he would be a good stop gap guy for 2/ 3years i would think, since he in ’18, will be in his age32 season…..and he really trended down this year. That is the risk… he getting near the edge of the cliff?

            2. If they could get him for the right trade price I’d take a chance on Donaldson – I love this guy as a hitter. If you added him, the line-up could come together really, really quickly as Crawford and Kingery are also promoted.

        3. No GM can be “positive” he can acquire a player until the player is acquired. Until then it’s always uncertain.

          1. I agree Judas, that is why I don’t want them to sit around and assume that they can get Machado after the 2018 season. Go trade for him this winter or go to a Plan B. If they wait until 2018 and he signs elsewhere, Donaldson will have been traded and Moustakas will have already signed, so where does the 3B come from?

            1. matt13…Franco is still here.
              With Franco……and I assume every GM’s fear is the Aramis Ramirez/Jose Bautista result….trading a guy before he reaches his peak, thinking he will never reach it.
              Then again……Franco may be the next coming of Pedro Feliz.
              Currently the outlook is not too promising when compared to the other 3rd basemen around the league:

            2. Moustakas this fall is a better plan (and less riskier) than waiting and hoping for Machado next fall..

              ….oh and today I looked at the W’port box score and saw that Ortiz walked, stole 2b and got thrown out on a play at home. Any word on whether he got hurt?

      2. I’m thinking worse case, if Franco never realizes his potential & the Phillies don’t get Machado…Galvis could provide 15 to 20 hrs. and JPC has shown he has the arm to play 3rd. Just think of the defense we would have with Scott K @ 2nd & CeHe as utility inf/outfielder?

        1. Galvis would be a terrible option at third. He’s a below average hitter at short – at third, he’s a disaster long-term.

      1. His folks need to get into town this afternoon I assume. Teams normally will not play a rookie in their debut until the family are there to see it….you only get one MLB debut.

  12. deGrom pitching for Mets and I think Hoskins will play….it was hinted about 48 hours ago that Hoskins would be in philly tonight so I would expect him in the line up,.

  13. Spencer Howard pitched very well again. Aside from 1 or 2 bad outings, that pick is looking really good.

    1. would you know if Howard’s stuff is as good as Johnny A. described it when they drafted him? Last 2 outings are really good. Although he is still not throwing > 4innings, but that might be by design.

      1. Wish I knew, brotha! I don’t even try to know LOL I bet they are limiting innings because he’s a college arm. I trust Johnny A. He’s been doing a pretty good job identifying talent.

        1. I’ve seen Howard pitch twice including today and I am very impressed. I reported on him a few weeks ago. High quality power arm. Just needs experience and yes they are limiting his innings and Seabold’s innings. I expect Howard will start at Lakewood and hopefully get promoted to Clearwater ala Romero and Suarez.

          1. @NL – when you say high quality power arm, can you be more specific. Any details on the velocity, movement, etc of the pitches he throw? MLB scouting said the FB is 93-94. Is that consistent? Did it go up by few mph or below? SL is said be the main out pitch at low 80s, I want to know if there’s strong bite or it is loopy, etc.

            1. seems encouraging. He wasn’t a sexy pick by any means, but I am happy with the results

            2. He consistently throws 93 with a high of 94 and has good movement. I won’t play professional scout but he got in a groove today and couldn’t be hit. Staten Island does have some pretty awful hitting but high quality pitching, but you can tell certain things anyway.

              Joe Jordan was quoted somewhere several weeks ago that they would limit Howard and Seabold’s innings.

  14. It’s mind boggling to me that this kid is being forced to play LF in his major league debuet when he’s played, what, 1 game there since 2012???

        1. Exactly…..a 40 grade, and with RH it is his run grade, is really the lowest they seem to go……I assume not too insult anyone.

          1. Yeah, I was just joking – its hard to find a guy slower than Ryan was (I don’t count after the injury – he was always hurt).

            I had a astronomy professor in college who would draw graphs of how quickly things moved and at one end of the spectrum was the speed of light and at the other end of the spectrum was Cliff Johnson (the slowest man in baseball at the time and a veritable Herman Munster when it came to running) – it was pretty hilarious.

  15. Yea but it’s his MAJOR LEAGUE DEBUET! There’s enough pressure on the kid and now he’s thrown in a major league outfield? Seems i-n-s-a-n-e to me. First time I’ve ever had a “should I be worried about Matt Klentak” moment.

    1. Yeah that is a bit more stressful for the kid.
      But I guess once he gets his first fly out , without crashing into Doobie, it will be like he is just another Pete Stinkviglia out there.
      He will be a natural….for maybe 7 weeks

      1. Romus I just cant see this kid in the outfield. I saw him at first and he scares me. Maybe I didn’t watch enough. but the times I saw him. his range and reflexs werent good. so he better hit.

    2. He will be adequate. Saw him in LF at LHV. Not much range but will catch balls in his area. Shade Obbie towards left. We had some great yrs with Bull playing left. The bat trumps defense. Want to expose him to MLB pitching. This move is 2 months late in my opnion.

    3. Can we quit freaking out over this. He’s not being moved to LF, he’s being put there to get him some big league time. I’m fairly certain he’s more than happy to be in LF if it means he’s in the majors.

      This this is what breaks him, he isn’t the prospect we think he is anyway…

  16. Posted this question above but no ‘REPLY’ underneath so I’ll repeat it here –

    Ortiz had only one plate appearance today. Box score shows he walked, stole 2b and then got thrown out on a play at home…any word on whether he got hurt?

    1. He got hurt at home plate on the “out” (he was really safe). Umpiring in the entire series was horrible, btw.

      Didn’t know he got hurt on the play as he went to RF in the bottom of the 2nd but motioned to the bench that he was injured and was taken out of the game. Look like a left leg injury but don’t want to swear to it.

  17. Tojo is 1 for his last 27. It is time to sit him a few games and let us see what Hoskins can do at his natural position.

  18. I have yet to read all the comments here but i’m sure someone has mentioned Alfaro being up and Rupp starting for the 3rd straight game, a lot of people are twitter are angry about that. A few thoughts . . .

    1. Remember that he was brought in by RAJ, so the current FO may not see much what RAJ and his staff saw. (Crawford as well)

    2. Didn’t really deserve the call up. It’s not like he was having a good season, it’s actually been really bad esp if you take into consideration how hot he started. He’s been terrible since. He wasn’t hitting for power, his D is only average, he doesn’t get on base and doesn’t run (not that he should), his only standout tool is his arm.

    3. “But he’s not developing on the bench” Yes and no. A buddy of mine played for the Yankees for 29 days (pitched 1 inning), he said that he learned more in the 28 days not pitching than he learned in his one inning (1-2-3 inning tho). Players, ESP catchers and pitchers can learn without playing. He is absolutely gaining experience and learning.

  19. Meanwhile, JP keeps going. 2 more hits and a walk tonight. His outs were also stung pretty well. Pigs almost came back late but the playoff picture for any of the affiliated teams seems irrelevant at this point. It’s all about who’s being or soon to be promoted. There’s really no continuity for W-L goals.

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