74 thoughts on “Box Score Recap – 8/7/2017”

1. Ben Pelletier, a 34th round pick in 2015 from Canada, has been solid in the GCL this year. The 18 yo, who will be 19 near the end of August, is hitting .324/.355/.495/.850. He’s hitting .417 in his 10 games. He has 23 Ks in 28 games and only 5 BBs. He plays mostly LF but can play RF too. It’s his 2nd year in the GCL so we’ll have to wait until he moves up to see if he’s a guy who we can get excited about.

2. Any report on how rhys did out in left field?

   1. from philly inquirer:
      At least on this night, Hoskins proved he could handle the routine, making five catches on balls that did not require him to move very far. The only two balls that got past him were a sixth-inning double by Chance Sisco and an eighth-inning triple by Luis Sardinas. Both balls would have required spectacular catches by the most experienced of outfielders.

      “I thought he did OK,” Wathan said. “Could he have been better? Yes. Could he have been worse? Yes. It’s all about experience and getting out there. The double over his head … if he takes a better route at it, does he catch it? Maybe. It’s a heck of a catch if he catches it.”

3. What’s left to find out about Tommy Joseph? Bring up Hoskins and let him play 1b. What value will TJ lose over the next couple months? This isn’t a contending club so how important is it to have an ordinary bench crew? Nava, Blanco, Joseph, backup catcher, whoever…

   JPC is striking out much more BUT considering it hasn’t hurt his OBP, I’m not worried if it’s merely the cost of his increased power. I’m very encouraged to see his AVGs elevate steadily. Each of last 2 games he reached base 3 of 5 times at the plate, 3 for 7 with 3 BBs. 6 more weeks to finish with a crescendo. Way to go, JP!

   1. Agred

   2. Sometimes the Phillies have this bizarre impression of the potential value of some of their players. For the longest time they insisted on playing Ryan Howard so they could increase his value for a trade partner that did not exist and, by any objective measure, would NEVER exist. Now they are trying to play Tommy Joseph to improve his trade value even though the likelihood of Tommy’s value going up between now and the end of the year is extremely low – maybe 5-10%, but it would come at the cost of reducing Hoskins’ playing opportunities.

      So, now we Hoskins playing left so he and ToJo can both play. Sounds good, right? Yeah, it’s fine for now, but the moment Altherr gets healthy it is no longer a good idea because it would mean Hoskins playing instead of Altherr, Williams or Herrera, which would be fine once in a while, but as a general rule, it’s not a good idea.

      I get that the current front office wants to be careful and deliberate and sift through the rubble to identify the gems. It’s fine as a general approach, but they are so careful that they have become indecisive, which is different and not good. I don’t care if they put Rhys in left for a while when Altherr is injured, but we know who ToJo is right now and we know his trade value is miniscule – you don’t block a potential first division player so you can marginally improve the trade value of a mediocre player. That’s poor management and poor player development.

   3. JP looks like he is almost ready, which is what we thought we might be saying in early August when the season began but the road to this point has been about as unexpected as you could ever imagine. The good part is that JP used his struggles as a means to improve his overall game, which now has a power component that he never flashed before.

      If continues to play the way he has since July, he should be promoted in September.

      And somebody is going to need to tell Pete Mackanin in no uncertain terms that JP must be played, and not just one start per week. I think it tells you all you need to know about Pete that he does not think much of JP as a player (who he continually puts down as a disappointment) and believes that Freddy is a competent #2 hitter.

      1. I think JPC used that extra motivation from those newspaper articles to get him going…

4. Time to consider thw protection of several Clearwater pitchers. Several of them pitching with a low ERA.

5. Time to also unprotect Tirado

6. For the life of me, what does the organization see in Bergjans at Reading? Surely, there must be some arm that has better upside than him. Why do they keep trotting him out every five days?

   1. 4-5 years ago we would have had a lot more Tommy Bergjans’ in the system. Be glad that there are few. He’s not blocking anybody from using that rotation spot.

   2. Another person bashing a kid with nothing to back it up! Tired of this!

      1. Anon1 is right, stop bashing romus

         1. Anon is clearly trolling. He last stated that JP was juicing and had his comment deleted

            1. Please tell me that the comment wasnt taken seriously. I thought it was obvious that I was being sardonic, maybe not. I think it was the “Slump Buster” comment that got it deleted, while it isnt G rated, it is something that is known and talked about in baseball circles.

7. catch, I am not a big Mackanin fan as a Manager, but I don’t know that his view on JP isn’t the Management view, and they have taken an approach that does not see him staring opening day. Maybe it is a development or motivation tooI, but I don’t think the organization feels it is warranted to plan on JP starting next year. So, I see them keeping Galvis and giving JP more time in LHV.

   1. Maybe but if he hits like this through August, the only purpose would be to delay his arb. service time. Frankly, I think for Crawford, like Hoskins, the MLB at bats are more important than service time and, in any event, if they are worried about the arb. service time, he can play a month and a half in AAA spring.

      1. next spring.

      2. Teams delay the arbitration clock all the time. I don’t now why you’re surprised about it. The Phillies did it with Franco. And a few years ago, The Cubs did it with Kris Bryant when he was destroying the minors.

         1. I’m not surprised, I just don’t know if I agree with it here (knowing, of course, that’s not my money).

            With Hoskins, next year he’s going to be a 25 year old first baseman – I just don’t see that the arb issue is going to be a big deal with him in the scheme of things and I think holding him back hurts more than waiting on the arb clock would help, but, yes, it’s a judgment call.

            With Crawford, I do get the arb clock but I think they should try to see him play in the majors this year if possible and then put him back in AAA for a month and half next year, like they did with Franco.

            1. Agree. If they are worried at all about Crawford’s arbitration clock you just lock him up early on a long term deal like Herrera. Even front load more of the dollars than you have to since payroll will be pretty low the next couple of years. I would not do it until after next year (assuming he is a success) but I definitely would want to do it.

               1. It’s not about the money right now, it’s about gaining that extra service time before he goes into arbitration.

            2. It’s already August, and Hoskins is pretty much a lock to be called up in September. So he can take that time at Lehigh to play some LF, he gets called up when rosters expand, and you can put him into LF right away. An extra month in the minors is not going to ruin him.

               1. No, it won’t ruin him, but they are wasting developmental time with him at this point because he’s already at least a month or two past the time when he was ready for a promotion. If he were a borderline player that would be one thing, but it’s not a great idea with one of your 5 or 6 best prospects.

               2. @Catch, unfortunately for Hoskins, he’s blocked. Now, you can make an argument that TJ shouldn’t be blocking him, but that’s another story. Howard was blocked, Utley was blocked, now Hoskins is blocked. It happens.

8. I agree with you Catch, I think Hoskins is in the Majors to start the year. I think he is up within the week and does not go back down. TJ’s trade value is very little, so it is not going to be hurt whatever they do with Hoskins. And, I think they have no plans to start Kingery in the Majors next year.

   1. TJ may be moved at the winter meetings. There are AL clubs that could use his bat at first and as a DH.
      Baltimore for one, maybe Mariners or Rangers also.
      But he probably will bring little value….though perhaps more int’l money, which I find valuable.

      1. @romus – there will be around 8-10 1Bs available in FA this winter. KC will be a good target for Klentak if they lose Hosmer via FA. Sabermetrics wise, ToJo is close to Hosmer so there might be a fit there. If KC will also lose Cain, then additional pieces can be offered as well (i.e. Doobie) to get better return.

         I like the Phils to sign JD Martinez at RF so I wouldn’t mind to see a Nick (LF)-Altherr (CF)-JDM (RF) OF and move on from Doobie next year.

         1. I don’t think the Phillies are signing any outfielders this year (too many possibilities now that Altherr and Herrera are locked in), but I could easily see them signing a third-baseman.

            1. Agree with catch. The Phillies are not going to be signing any FA OF’ers this offseason (other than maybe a Nava-like bench piece). There is no way Klentak is handing out a multi year contract to JD Martinez, Jay Bruce, or any other big name OF’er. I believe the Phillies still have an interest in a Christian Yellich trade, but the likelihood of that happening is slim.

               As far as ToJo goes, I would still keep trotting him out there five times a week through the end of August. I outlined a plan (in last week’s open thread) to deal Joseph this winter. In case you missed it, Klentak should send Joseph to Baltimore for Mark Trumbo and his contract (2 more years @ 26 million dollars), a minor league player, and the Orioles competitive balance draft pick (early 30’s and worth about 2 million slot dollars).

               1. @hinkie, we’re pretty much on the same boat although my timeclock is a year ahead of you. you prefer to load up after 2018 season that’s why I can see the reason behind you arguments.

                  2019 to me is the time to contend. but i prefer to do an initial legwork thus acquiring assets in 2-year period as oppose to your approach of waiting until post 2018. the Phils is not the only team preparing for the post 2018 free agency, and it’s expected to be a competitive battle for elite talent so i rather set the team earlier and get some ground work going.

                  my preference is to start acquiring assets now and have the “core” start playing together and gain MLB experience.

               2. I’d rather the Phillies be drafting 25 th on down. I pretty sure MK and Macphail have a plan more then likely need not yours . Your Record with this FO is pretty bad. If the Phillies have a winning record in games after the All star break the FO will start the second phase of the rebuild. right now there going to test Alfaro, Hoskins maybe even Jp And Kingery after Sept 1 . Macphail already said MK has the green light to get a big ticket player. Thome started the last rebuild the Phillies have alot of cap room to sign or trade for any 3 players . Darvish in front of Nola a good start.

         2. KuKo….JD will probably re-up with the DBacks…I do not see them letting him go for what he has done so far for them.
            And you want Doobie to go?
            I prefer he stays for another year, but if he cannot bring back an Adam Eaton like return, then why bother trading him!
            It would have to be one big return.
            Now I am in favoring of offering for Manny Machado over at the meetings, if he is not signed by the Os by then, in a sign and trade scenario…MLB players Franco, Herrera and Velasquez, and maybe also add a top minor league pitcher not named Sixto… ink Manny M. for seven years.

            1. @romus – market defines value in trades. if the Phils can get Lee (and/or) Matias and Ashe Russell (currently outside of KC’s Top 30) for Doobie and ToJo, I’ll take that. KC might lose Cain and Hosmer in FA so there’s a fit and opportunity.

               FO’s should manage a team, not just players (that’s the skippers role). There should be a strike of balance within the roster and not just look at particular players.

               As I reply to Guru, an OF of Williams-Altherr-JDM (plus some prospects in the back pocket) vs OF of Williams-Doobie-Altherr might be better in the bigger scheme of things. Macro vs Micro.

               1. KK … gonna’ have to strongly disagree with you on that proposed trade. Odubel (and his team friendly contract) has got to be worth a lot more. Neither Lee, Matias, or Russell are top 100 prospects. If Adam Eaton was worth (at the time of his trade) two top 40 prospects (Giolito and Lopez), plus a recent 1st round draft pick (Dunning), Odubel should be worth at least half that.

               2. @hinkie – i understand why you disagree. but nobody can deny the concept of economics. Nats is in a different market that time and CWS just pounced on the opportunity and I’m pretty sure that Klentak (just like Roseman when they drafted Marcus Smith) are caught napping when that opportunity is up in the air. In fact, CWS has done a good job lately on looking for opportunities in their favor.

                  Moderation of greed is sometimes key in making decisions.

         3. I don’t get the love for JD Martinez. He’s going to be 30 at the end of the month and he’s a terrible defender (negative dWAR every year). Other than 2 big WAR years at age 26 and 27, he had 1.8 WAR last season and has less WAR this year than Odubel.

            So you’re basically exchanging a 25 year old Odubel for a 30 year old JD, pay JD more money, and hoping he generates more WAR than Odubel in the next 3-4 years? How does that make sense?

            1. @Guru – i already made a case on WAR being misused. For now, I don’t see WAR a means to measure winning games and world series. You just need to go thru the definition of WAR. I also said before that WAR is good when valuing players for awards (MVP, HOF, etc), contract negotiations (for comps) and trades. But will refrain in referring to WAR as end all be all especially if you use stats in isolation (i’m pretty sure that nobody here has access to the total population of the statics).

               JD Martinez and Eric Hosmer are included in the “to avoid list” of sabermetrics people. A wise FO seek a balance of statistical vs non statistical, qualitative vs quantitative, tangible vs intangible, physical vs numerical factors. JD Martinez is probably included in the Top 5 SLG for the last 3 years (only behind Trout, Arenado, Stanton) and if you put that in CBP with 1-3 hole hitter that get’s on base (i.e. Doobie, Cesar, JPC, Kingery) – that’s production.

               If not for Rhys Hoskins, I will push for Eric Hosmer also. WAR people will point to his negative to very low WAR. But Hosmer won 3 straight golden gloves an his career offensive line is really good. Same with JDM, put his behind hitters that gets on base will result to production.

               At the end of the day, games and world series are decided based on runs scored and not WAR.

               1. You can make a case for WAR being misused and for people not fully paying attention to defensive numbers but I know for sure that the Phillies care a lot about defensive metrics and they will not be trading a young, cost-controlled, centerfielder with great defensive metrics straight up for an older corner outfielder whose defensive metrics and overall WAR are lower. It’s not going to happen in a straight-up deal with this management group and, I think, rightfully so.

               2. So basically what you’re saying is WAR doesn’t matter for winning games or winning titles? Huh. So it’s a coincidence that the best teams now usually have players with high WAR? So Dodgers and Astros with 5 guys with 3+ WAR, and the White Sox with none and the Phillies with 1 has no bearing whatsoever? Back in 2008, the Phillies had 5 guys with 3+ WAR. Coincidence again?

               3. @catch – JDM will not be replacing Doobie in CF, Altherr will. I will not dig into that defensive WAR between Doobie vs Altherr in CF but it’s not hard to see that Altherr is a capable defensive CF so the Phils is not losing any defensive value of a key defensive position.

                  JDM is a step down defensive vs Altherr, but so are half of the league possibly. I’m not sure what defensive metrics (and how reliable is stat and if you understand the underlying assumption behind it), but watching JDM – he’s not a speedster, but he still runs good routes and have a decent arm. The Phils can already switch Williams to RF and move LF is defense is really a priority.

               4. @Guru – do you have access to 2008 WAR data for all teams (and not just the Phils)? If you can give that to me, I can verify to you if you’re statement is correct or not and I can make an analysis of WAR as it relates to each teams performance.

                  without knowing the scope (population) and variables (assumption) most mathematical correlations are still deemed inconclusive.

               5. That’s a silly argument.

                  It’s like saying that games are decided based on who scores more runs on a single day and not by who has the best hitters or pitchers. Of course it’s true for a single game and it’s true for the postseason in a literal sense because outcomes in small sample sizes are so random for baseball.

                  You just keep fighting the WAR demon and I don’t get it. The whole purpose of WAR is measure how many runs a player generates or saves to determine how many games the player added to the win column above a replacement player.

                  Is it perfect? No, it’s not, but it’s pretty damned good and better than any single statistic I’ve yet seen. And, again, the whole point is to measure runs contributed, which you readily admit is the most important thing.

               6. @Kuko, just go to baseball reference and look up all 2008 teams. It’ll tell you all you need to know.

               7. @catch – silly as it seems, but what do you look at to see who wins the game? so if games are decided by who has the best hitters or pitchers – then how do you score the game them? i think the pitchers are graded for each game but does it actually being used to determine the outcome of the game?

                  i’m not fighting the WAR demon. To me WAR is still like an electronic currency. it has value and you can use it, but you cannot use electronic currency for everything.

                  if the league starts to come up with a universal WAR calculation and definition and being included in their day to day stats, then I will accept it with no more hesitation.

               8. i’ll be more specific, is WAR being recognized as on “official stat” by MLB or even by Elias Sports Bureau?

               9. @catch – just to add, did you mentioned that “WAR is measure how many runs a player generates or saves to determine how many games the player added to the win column above a replacement player.”

                  i don’t think you got the correct definition of WAR.

            2. @Guru – i’m not exchanging Doobie for JDM. It’s basically JDM + prospects that you will get from Dooble (which should be a good return). Khalil Lee and/or Seuly Matias + some lower rank members can be targets.

               And if you will use that WAR thing again, the WAR value is based on the assumption that Doobie will be replaced with a freely available minor league or AAAA player (see WAR definition by Fangraphs) — Altherr is more suitable that any free minor league or AAAA available so the Phils is not losing any value by replacing Doobie with Altherr in CF.

               1. In this new age of baseball, nobody is trading top prospects anymore unless it’s for an elite talent i.e Chris Sale. Even the As couldn’t grab Torres or Frazier for Gray. If you’re not getting a top prospect for Odubel, then what’s the point? We have enough B type prospects.

                  As for replacing Odubel with Altherr, you know Altherr’s D this season is not great right? And he’s a year older and he’s been injured a decent amount the last 2 years. So if he’s producing runs with his bat and giving runs with his D, that’s supposed to be ok?

               2. Honestly KuKo I’m not big on WAR and I don’t care if WAR is for or against JDM or Hosmer I don’t want either player.

                  I’m definitely open to trading Herrera but it would have to be for the likes of a Noah Syndergaard type of arm or a Roy Halladay or a Cliff Lee. I’m with Hinkie above as he referenced the Eaton trade. You have to get a lot back for him and interestingly I think the White Sox would be the team to do it with.

                  I am for Moose as he would bring you a solid LH bat in the middle of that line-up.

                  I’m all in on JP and Kingery and will trade both Galvis and Hernandez. If Simmons got the Braves Newcomb and Forsythe got the Rays Jose DeLeon I look to MK to get similar returns for both players.

                  Those are his assets and those are positions you can reasonably say you have the prospects who are ready to be at least league average.

               3. if TOR thinks Thor will be Thor, ARI thinks Scherzer will be Scherzer and so on, these teams will never made that trade. and we we can go on with failed top prospects because everybody is a genius after the fact — and I said before FO needs to embrace uncertainty otherwise they will be running behind the other teams.

                  the philosophy behind my arguments are basically simple:

                  a) preference on physical abilities and instincts
                  b) use all avenues to acquire assets
                  c) use all means to acquire elite asset(s)
                  d) strike a balance in decision making (quantitative vs qualitative)
                  e) invest on infrastructure (analytics database, coaches, etc)
                  f) risk management

                  letter a) is why i’m down on Doobie and Cesar and letter d) is why i don’t use WAR as end all be all.

                  f) is critical because you can’t manage what you don’t know. and you will not know if you don’t learn. and you learn by trying and putting things into action.

   2. I think Hoskins depends on how he hits his season . judge and Sandcez both weren’t ready the first time .

9. Eflin going up tonight to start. Knapp put on DL.

   1. Oh man, time to see if Eflin learned anything. He has to be on a short leash. If he bombs, he goes back down and Leiter goes into the rotation.

      1. Why would he be on a short leash? It’s not like they are competing for anything.

         People are too quick to judge this guy. He’s young, he’s got a great pitcher’s body and he throws hard deep into games. He needs to work on his command and his breaking stuff so he can miss more bats, but, like Pivetta, there’s some serious upside there.

         1. totally agree with you there Catch

         2. Also agree with catch. IMO, Efflin has a chance to be a part of the Phillies rotation going forward. Send him to the mound every fifth day for the remained of this season. Leiter, at best, is a long man in the BP.
            BTW … just realized we’ve been posting in the wrong thread. We should move the future roster, FA moves, and possible trade discussion to the open thread. Sorry, Jim.

         3. For starters, Eflin wasn’t performing that well at Lehigh. I think he’s getting the nod only because it lined up for him. Second, he’s already had 19 starts in the bigs, and the numbers are not good. His career ERA is 5.79 with negative WAR. As a comparison, Lively has 7 starts, 3.80 ERA and positive WAR.

            I think the Phillies would have given the start to either Lively or Leiter, if they were available.

            It’s a chance that Eflin has, and he needs to make the most of it. Jake Thompson had a good spot start, got shelled in his second start, and now he’s in the minors.

         4. i like Eflin although I don’t see him as a future in the rotation so he’s expendable. I’ll trade him as soon he recovers his value.

            I have Nola, Pivetta, Kilome, Anderson, Seranthony, Eshelman, Sixto, Medina and a couple of top FAs (Darvis, Otani, etc) in my target pitching staff so the rest are expendable to me.

            1. KuKo….Phillies have three pitchers who have FB velocity, 94plus, that in most cases are an enviable commodity to have, especially when classifying TOR pitchers
               …VV, Eflin and Pivetta.
               Their obvious issue, is command and in particular their secondary pitches and its command.
               They are…..not that different than a 26-year old 2012 Baltimore Oriole Jake Arrieta.
               If you plan on moving any of those three pitchers…..you better realize you could be missing out on reclamation of a future TOR pitcher.

               1. @romus – i’m taking on that risk, especially i’m not moving VV, Eflin for nothing of course (but i will not be greedy about it). Teams mostly need 5 SPs – I should be able to find 5 (and some coming up) from the Nola, Pivetta, Kilome, Anderson, Seranthony, Eshelman, Sixto, Medina and FAs I like to target. Injury is the biggest variable that’s why I might move VV to the pen if not traded.

                  I didn’t mentioned Pivetta as expendable but I’m not worried about the potential upside of losing Eflin. I’m biased towards Anderson and Serathony and for a reason – both have good FB and have a wider pitching repertoire than VV and Eflin. Pitching is not all about velocity to me that’s why I stick with Nola since he was drafted and include Eshelman in my pool.

                  I’m not even discussing Kilome, Sixto, Medina and some prospects in the low minors.

                  The Phils are not really losing “elite talent” when they trade some of their players (Doobie, Cesar, VV, Eflin, etc) since the Phils don’t have “elite talent” in their 40-man anyway. you cannot lose what you don’t have so i’m not worried when i make moves involving the 40-man.

10. Wathan said that Hoskins may be in LF in Philly on Thursday night.

    1. I Will ask Romus he is friends with Wathan, Who is this kid pitching today a gcl at 17yrs old Morales, was he a high bonus sign?

       1. Yes he was

11. Rocco … Francisco Morales and Brayan Gonzalez were the Phillies two biggest ticket signees last summer. Morales signed for 720 thousand dollars, and was throwing 95 MPH as a 16 YO. He’s probably already a top 30 (at least a top 40) prospect.

    1. ty hinkie

       1. rocco….Hinkie wlil take care of you.
          Phillies got two more high premium arms last month….Colombian Victor Vargas, RHP, and Carlos Betancourt, RHP, of Venezuela.

12. the GCL team can be sneaky good despite having a core that are probably 2 yrs younger collectively than the GCL median age:

    SPs – Morales, Lindow, Mezquitas, Rosso and Silva
    INF – Rodriguez/Marchan, Nieporte, Guzman, Gonzalez, Holmes, Stewart
    OF – Muzziotti, Pelletier, Gurrola

13. I want to see the future now, and getting time in majors seems like a good idea. However, any time at this point will be severely limited to draw any conclusions.

    If players and management approach it as a learning experience it can help. But I could see some players getting bad habits trying to impress.
    There are few Aaron Judge turn arounds.

14. Can we talk about getting some pitching please, We have no number 1 and no number 2 and no true closer. Forget about the hitting for now, we have enough position players with the addition of Hoskins to get by. We need pitching !!!!! Focus on that

    1. What is Nola?

15. Fanti was fantastic again

16. Nola is a #2. We don’t need a closer now.

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