The End of an Era, Say Goodbye to Hollywood

With the names still trickling in, the Cole Hamels deal is all but final with the Phillies sending Hamels to the Texas Rangers.

The names that currently seem to be confirmed are Hamels and Jake Diekman going to Texas for Catcher Jorge Alfaro, OF Nick Williams, P Alec Asher, P Jerad Eickhoff,  and P Matt Harrison.

A quick look at who is coming: Jorge Alfaro is a 22 year old AA catcher who was hitting .253/.314/.432 with 5HR and 21RBI’s to go along with a 28% caught stealing rate before going down with a significant left ankle injury.  He has been out 6 weeks and could miss the remainder of the season.  Jerad Eickhoff, 25, was the Rangers 15th round pick in the 2011 draft.  He has pitched all season for AAA Round Rock, going 8-4 with a 4.47ERA in 17 starts, spanning 96.2 innings.  His WHIP sits at 1.30 and his BB/K ratio is a solid 3.1/9.0.

OF Nick WIlliams  was the Rangers 2nd round pick in the 2012 draft out of Ball High School in Galvaston, TX. Just 21, Williams has spent this season at AA Frisco, hitting .300/.357/.480 with 13HR 45RBI and 10SB.  He walks at an 8% ate, while striking out in 18% of his plate appearances.  23 year old Alec Asher was the Rangers 4th round pick in the 2012 draft and has made 12 starts for AAA Round Rock this season going 3-6 with a 4.73ERA in 64.2IP.  He sports a solid 2.6/7.5 walk to K ratio to go along with a 1.39WHIP.

29 year old LHP Matt Harrison is part of the deal and is owed in excess of $26M guaranteed over the next two seasons.  He has made a total of 9 major league starts over the last two seasons due to multiple injuries.  Harrison does have an abundance of talent if healthy, having won 18 games for the Rangers in the 2012 season, throwing in excess of 210 innings with an outstanding 3.29ERA.

21 year old RHP Jake Thompson who was originally a 2012 2nd round pick by the Tigers is also part of the deal.  Thompson is 6-6 with a 4.72ERA in 17 starts for AA Frisco this season having thrown 87.2 innings and a 3.1/8.0 walk to strikeout ratio.  Thompson currently has a rather high WHIP of 1.41, but had an excellent 2014 season where he went 10-5 with a 3.12 ERA in 25 starts between High A and AA.

Jake Thompson, Nick Williams and Jorge Alfaro were the #3,4 and 5 prospects in the Baseball America’s mid season organizational rankings for the Rangers system.  Alec Asher ranks as the #13 prospect in the Rangers system.

Look for more analysis of the trade tomorrow at Phuturephillies.com.

 

 

256 thoughts on “The End of an Era, Say Goodbye to Hollywood

    1. Did you also see that on the postgame coverage? That would be a pretty big addition if true.

  1. They nailed it. Never thought there was a chance they could come away with 3 top 5 prospects for Hamels.

    Really love how they used their payroll abilities to maximize a deal. This team’s future just got so much brighter. The lower levels are stacked and now there are some potential impact talents in the upper minors and a ton of pitching depth.

    Hats off to Amaro/Gillick/MacPhail. They absolutely nailed this deal and maximized a potential return.

    1. Not so quick let’s wait until these guys perform in the big leagues.. Looks promising so far though

      1. I completely understand that but with teams hording their prospects these days to come away with the names the Phillies did is very impressive. It’ll probably be 2-3 years before we know the true outcome but on paper this deal is great.

        Plus Texas keeps Gallo, gets cash for Hamels, unloads Harrison… they could be major players in free agency to add to Darvish/Hamels and that offense. Seems like a win/win for both teams.

      2. You have to grade a trade the second it is made. Prospects are so volatile that the wait and see approach makes no sense.

      3. I think what makes this trade so compelling is they really are limiting their downside by acquiring so many quality prospects. I expect 2 to make it and be good to very good. If a 3rd makes it then they nailed it.

  2. Alfaro is out for this season with an ankle injury. His minor lg record doesn’t impress for a supposedly offensive catcher. He also, from what I’ve read, is guilty of a questionable ‘tude. Williams seems to have the most potential for the future outfield but is still looking for more contact and fewer Ks.Does he go to Reading or Lehigh Valley? Alongside Altherr? The AA pitcher seems ready for AAA. And the Reading rotation is very crowded…but none of them has taken the bull by its horns and stood out!

    1. boy I would be aweful careful about drawing those conclusions on Alfaro. His bat can be impact. IMO the two guys to watch the most in this deal are Williams & Alfaro. They both have all-star potential.

  3. Would have liked Ortiz but if Alfaro , Williams , either Thompson or the other guys work out ok. 2 pitchers that are in AAA 1 hurt Thompson may be the one who makes or breaks the trade. Williams maybe the stud but Texas still have Brinson and Cordell. Diekman too man that’s a lot now we another lefty.I hope 1 of the 20 catcher’s we have in the sys would work out.

  4. Bittersweet. Now that it seems close to official it really sucks to lose another franchise icon, not to mention a lefthanded ace with a WS MVP. Thanks, Cole.

    It does seem like they did pretty well with the return though. I’m not crazy about Alfaro, which seems to be a fairly common sentiment among fans, but all in all they probably did as well as we could hope.

  5. Three decent prospects and three garbage pitchers. Alfaro won’t be able to stick at catcher apparently and Williams and Thompson are overrated. And Phils are taking on 42mil(?) left on Harrsion’s deal and sending cash to Rangers?

    Someone please explain to me how Harrison got that contract and what happened to him? At least value overall on the trade is close to when we traded for cliff lee.

      1. Be prepared for more. The usual suspects will wonder why the Phillies couldn’t get the other team to give up their #1 prospect for Hamels. A lot of the same who thought the Phillies gave up too much, when trading Michael Taylor for Roy Halladay.

        1. Don’t care about rankings. I disliked Gallo and Pederson for instance and still do. I like players like Crawford and Randolph. I really like the direction the Phils are going with their philosophy about minors.

            1. Um more like this “I value approach, bb%, k%.” Gallo is at like 50% k rate and Peterson’s very high also

      2. There is two. This is not value for hamels. 43 million diekman and hamels for one good prospects. Williams and a bunch of maybe. we have the same junk down there. This was a bad deal. but I expected it. Williams is the only one I really like. I realize now gillick has passed his worth. he made this bad deal as a exit I hope from decision. Mcphail signed off on this then he wont help us either. John Middleton I hope realize he must get better people in there fo . Raid the cardinals and giants for better people.

        1. rocco…Hamels needed to be traded now…most leverage….as High Cheese says, “The Phillies need to build both an offense and a rotation, and they won’t win until they do both, and you can survive a lot longer on a putrid offense with a young, talented rotation than vice versa (see the Mets, Giants and Rays).”

          ….how far do you go with Alfaro?…..he could be plus catcher with pop.
          Thompson could be special, along with Williams.
          The remaining pitchers are back-of the rotation guys. Harrison will probably continue to experience back issues.

          http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/20150730_No_time_like_the_present_to_trade_Cole_Hamels.html#1PHb1itB5DpIJdW8.99

          1. Romus I like Williams from what I could read. I just hate they had to pay that money without giving us there top prospect. I know hamels had to go. But as I stated rather have spent that money we gave texas on a Cuban player. Alfano is really hated and I have no clue why by the twits I read on texas ranger site. They love t hompson why I don’t know. they don’t like alfano.

        2. All the pitchers the Phillies seem to acquire measure 6’4″ or better it seems.
          MLB on Jared Eickhoff….Strong and physical, Eickhoff has a 91-95 mph fastball that touches 97. He complements it with a hard curveball that gives him a second plus pitch at times, as well as a slider that can be a solid offering. He throws strikes and uses his 6-foot-4 frame to pitch on a downhill plane. If Eickhoff can improve his changeup and command, he could be a workhorse No. 3 starter. If not, he could be a late-inning reliever whose pitches should feature more power in shorter stints.

        3. what did Williams bat in high school? I bet Pat Gillick never even thought to ask that question. That’s what sets you apart from him as a talent evaluator. That and the Internet.

    1. Phi93, what would you have done differently as you had a restricted trade market for Hamels like the Phillies did? If you complain then please offer up other alternative ideas .

      1. I would have been fine with Hamels and rest of his salary this year for Williams, Thompson and two high upside a ball players. It just seems to me like this deal got crazy complicated with money so Alfaro and two relief pitchers could be included. Not excited about Alfaro at all.

        1. Alfaro will find a spot if his bat develops even if it is at 1B and they can always deal him for other help as prospects are now the new currency in baseball.

    2. If everything fell apart, the earth spun off its axes, a black hole gets discovered near earth, famines breaks out everywhere combined with multiple nuclear explosions….your doomsday scenario might come true, I just think there is too must talent to fail across board.

    3. Harrison was a very good pitcher, before he was hurt. Back-to-back ERAs of 3.39 and 3.29 with an average 200 IP and a1.27 WHIP is good for an AL pitcher. And he was only 26 at the time. He has had a ton of back woes and surgeries and likely is just an eyewash for sending more $ to Texas, but he was once a solid #2 starter and if he somehow makes it back as even a solid #3/4, then we got a steal.

      1. True. This is overlooked in the deal. Could help eat innings in a couple years when we are contending again or be traded for a bullpen piece or something

  6. To people who don’t like this deal: What did you honestly expect for Hamels?

    Gallo, Seager, Urias, Swihart, Betts, Mazara, etc were all off limits to any team. This is the best deal the Phillies could have done.

    This deal goes a long way to strengthening the farm system. The Phillies got 5 names back with potential and a guy to soak up innings in front of a young rotation this year.

    1. I’m just going to avoid the MLB trade rumors forums. This comment ^ is basically a response to that.

    2. I believe without a doubt the Phils could have gotten AJ Reed if Hamels would have gone to the Astros. I really wanted them to get him. That is the only player who I believe is the next big time stud who would have been touchable.

      Alfaro is another Tommy Joeseph. At least he should be able to play the OF. Thompson=Eflin in value. Williams may be as talented as Altherr.

      The Rangers will basically be paying Hamels 11mil(?) a year! I really am curious about what happened to Harrison if anyone knows.

      1. Hamels blocked a deal to Houston. I’m actually really curious as to what those names were.

          1. I really believe Phils could have gotten Reed, Velasquez, Santana, and Kemp from astros. Cleanup 850 ops 1B, #3 SP, 2 what could be called lottery tickets. Done.

      2. He is hurt all the time but if he is good when healty. I knew this was going to happen after what the Dodgers trade was Dodgers raked the Braves. Rangers were the last partner I wonder what Houston wants for Phillips. I wonder what the phillies cap is now.

  7. I like this trade a lot. Because of this and the Papelbon trade, our 10th best prospect a week ago is now 14th. What a great addition to our depth.

    I don’t think we should sleep on Harrison either. He could figure it back out and stay healthy, and all we have to do is pay him money.

    1. Last year, the Cubs traded Smardjiza (as a rental) for Addison Russel, straight up I believe. Samardjiza is not Hamels. Who did the Phillies get as good as Russel, who was the #8 prospect in MiLB a the time? Depth in the system is nothing if you get nothing more than AAAA payers.

      1. That was a bad trade and an outlier. They’ve been trying for over a year to get that type of a prospect back and it hasn’t happened.

      2. That is untrue. Samardzja had a year of arbitration left so he wasn’t a rental. They also got another SP in Hammel who had a sub 3.00 era when traded to Oakland.

        There were also many other extenuating circumstances. Beane thought this could put Oakland as a World Series contender and had that happened it could have aided them in public sentiment on their new ballpark quest.

        The Phillies might have gotten a better deal… but it would have required Hamels to NOT have a NTC. Based on really only having a couple teams to trade with this return being this good was unexpected by me.

          1. If 2 out of the 5 prospects they got turn out to be “average”, then we got a good return. Id rather have a #3 starter and a solid starting outfielder than a year of 34 year old Hamels in 2017 or whenever.

  8. I’ve got lot of Rangers fans on my own site and they feel like as a group that we ended up getting a pretty damn nice haul. The Thompson piece of this puzzle seems to be the one that stings the most for some. While they are all glad to a man that they didn’t have to give up Gallo or Marzara, I’m comforted tonight that there seems to be a lot of sting from there perspective about having to give up the three big pieces.

    1. I’m not surprised that Thompson is the piece that Ranger’s fans will miss. The Rangers have so much depth at OF, that Nic Williams is probably only their 3rd best OF prospect. Alfaro is hurt right now, so out of sight out of mind. I think the Phillies got about what they should have received and Texas gave up pieces they can spare without crippling their system. Good deal for both.

  9. Lets hope the phils attempt to rrsign hamels after free agency. That’s the only way this works out.

    Trading a #1/#2 type pitcher entering the prime of his career while getting primarily minor league fillers in return wasn’t what anyone was looking for.

    I wonder if they felt they “had” to trade him due to the media expectation. Hopefully they will attempt to resign him when his contract is up, but in my mind, they should have been looking to give a new contract rather than a trade.

    Haviþg an experienced successful pitcher around to show the young guys the work ethic and ways to handle success would be important beyond monetary value.

    1. He’s 31. He’s in the middle of his prime and is about a year or two away from entering the downside of his career.

      People with the mind set you have are the reason why we’re watching Utley, Howard, and Chooch limp off into the sunset. Thankfully they no longer run this team.

      1. Cole has 2/3 good years left. He doesn’t rely on velocity and it’s actually best ever past 2 years. He might pitch forever like Moyer with that changeup. I really believe that and would love to see him back as #4 after his contract is up.

    2. These guys arent minor league fillers. Even the two pitchers that didnt headline could be anywhere from #5 to #3 starters. At worst, bullpen pieces.

  10. Calling it now – none of these guys pans out to be anything special. Should have just held on to Cole.

    1. You could say that about any prospects we need to be the number 1 pick in the draft next yr . Pick Groome and finally get our ace. You should see the Braves trade make you feel better. Did you do any research on the need prospects?

    2. Thats my opinion also.

      Williams looks like the best shot to be a starter (without knowing more ) and Thompson, & Alfaro AAAA type guys. Harrison seems like a possible # 3/#4 even #2 If healthy and effective, but that would be for 2 yrs yet.

      To trade a bird in the hand, (a known experienced quantity) you should have to get 3 birds in the bush of equal upside potential though perhaps 2 to 3 yrs away. I will get injured, one will fizzle out and one may make a significant but possibly lesser impact.

      Time will only tell how this trade will work out.

      1. Thomson could be a #2 starter. He is a safe bet to be a #3. Alfaro just needs to get healthy. If he can even be a slightly below average catcher defensively, his offensive upside will allow him to be an average or better player

    3. and what, watch him throw 7 innings and give up 1-2 runs and get a no decision or a loss?

      The Phillies acquired pieces for the future. Even #1 prospects flame out. They got a good haul considering the position they were in.

      Hamels is immovable in the off season and he’s 32 next year. They made the very best deal they could.

    4. The 3 top kids they got were ranked 60, 64, and 68 I think, prior to the trade we had a total of 2 top 100 prospects

    1. Tim amaro didn’t make this deal. Two its a bad deal cause we are paying down a aces contract. We got one good prospect Williams. and a catcher that we have already in our system joseph. his catcher is injury prone and hasn’t proven he is a offensive player. Thompson numbers aren’t great. so I really to be honest don’t know anything about him.I really want to know if gillick who I hope leaves. or mcphail wanted this deal. Texas got a steal. But I guess we couldn’t expect more with this old fo decision makers. they have lost touch with the game. Billy beane struck first on a trading a pitcher cause he knows his stuff. He got three good prospect for kazmir. cause he knew there would be better pitchers out there and if you wait you might get less. Notice how he held hitter back to trade. he got more for kasmir then we are getting. we got a tommy joseph. type. two kendricks type pitchers and had to pay all that money. John Middleton please go out and get some of the people from st Louis and giants teams that know what the hell they are doing.

      1. Nothing makes you happy apparently-this was a nice haul given the restrictions the Phillies had.

      2. I think this was a good trade for the Phillies. I give it a solid B. Perhaps if Hamels had permitted Houston to remain in the bidding we do a little better, but this was a nice diversified haul of talent. I do worry about Alfaro’s ankle surgery, but an ankle is not the same as a long string of concussions. Alfaro isn’t Joseph — Joseph isn’t even a top 30 prospect for the Phillies. Alfaro is legit top 100 in all of baseball. And Williams is a lot better prospect than Altherr. He’s also 3 years younger. We might get lucky on Harrison, although spinal fusion surgery is three red flags flying

      3. I get it too a point it was down too the Dodgers and Texas do too Hamels refused to go to Houston . When the Dodgers where in a trade with the Marlins and Braves I knew Texas was the only Team left. I didn’t like it at first so I did research now I see in a different way. The phillies needed pitchers that were close to being called up.other then Nola and Morgan and Buchanan No one pitching prospect is close.Thompson and Williams were both at the future games and look good. Williams has super fast hands he is now learning how to recognize pitchers . He hit 290 last yr swing at everything this yr he’s much better with the strikeouts. He not a finished product. Thompson the thing I noticed he’s only 21 in AA everywhere you go he’s rated high. Jorge Alfaro as good as arm as Grullon but raw as far as catching goes. This bat has power needs to bring down the the k’s. He maybe out for the yr I really don’t the Joesph comparison he has Concussion problem Jorge hurt his ankle. The thing that hit me was that the Rangers tried him at 3rd, the OF and 1st. The 2 other pitcher’s can hit 95 Velo I thought you would like that. I would liked Ortiz and Cordell too , the thing the is Texas has a great farm sys right now and the Phillies pulled 3 prospects form there top 10 . Now that the Phillies cap is starting to clear maybe we can finally get Cuban player you really want .Bty the Doders raked the Braves and Marlins last night. The yanks are sitting on there prospects as the blue Jays are going for it.

      4. The Gaints , st.louis, Pittsburg, KC , all have a system that works. The Yanks , Dodgers , Boston all pay for Talent .

        1. Though Pitt, KC and Giants had long long droughts in the last 20 years.
          How is your patience level?

  11. I don’t know what it is with philly teams and taking damaged goods but it’s absurdly frustrating. Alfaro scares the hell out of me, an ankle injury for a catcher seems awful. I guess they could move him to first but it’d take him time for his defense to project. He also Ks a lot but if he hits for 30+ HR power that’d be alright, idk how slim the chances of that happening are.

    If you wanna compare this trade to the Halladay deal the Phillies made in 09, Phils gave up 2 top 25 prospects in drabek and Taylor and a top 100 in d’Arnaud. Halladay was entering his age 33 season. The Rangers get an ace less talented but 1 1/2 years younger and also more playoff experienced. They gave up 3 top 50-100 prospects along with a bad contract on a has-been pitcher and 2 other lottery pick prospects.

    Is that a good deal? Not really. Is it the most the Phillies could’ve gotten for hamels? Possibly, but they don’t have to worry about cole getting hurt and losing trade value by settling for this package. Philly could’ve also gotten a better package from a more desperate team if less teams were on hamels’ no trade list. The amount much money kicked in on both sides for Harrison and hamels will be a big factor as well.

    Obviously it’s gonna depend on if the prospects pan out to see if the phils lost but I’d say it’s a mediocre deal with everything considered.

    1. You lose me on the Halladay trade and here’s why…

      The GM who dealt away that talent currently sits in the GM seat of the team trying to trade Hamels. There wasn’t a Ruben Amaron Jr out there. He is widely regarded as overpaying in prospects in many of his trades. You can’t use him to guage accurate value around the league IMO.

      He refused that type of deal at the trade deadline and Toronto’s GM got fired and the new GM made that deal. If he gives up those players in July he may have saved JP Riccordis job.

      1. The value of prospects has gone way up in today’s game as well. Not that they weren’t coveted back in the time that deal was made it was much more likely to acquire a highly ranked prospect for a veteran: (Wheeler for Beltran.)

        The Phillies couldn’t get the marquee guys from Texas because no one trades them in this day and age and if they do those deals are usually universally panned. Texas was really the only team out there who could offer a quality package once their top guys were off the board. (Besides Houston who he wouldn’t approve a trade to).

    2. People do not understand how the game has changed in terms of competitive balance. In the past you could buy your way to a title (Yankees) but in this day and age they are having problems.

      They are leading a weak AL East and had to pull in a third team to get Jeter’s replacement. They were unwilling to trade a power corner OF prospect in Judge.

      It is a different game now.

      This was a great deal.

      1. David tell that to Billy beane who gets mostly great trades, and the cardinals and giants, braves fo who know what they are doing. Not the old men running this team now. And I am starting to hate john Middleton. who I will email today and tell him. Get younger guys who know the game with the changes like saber. Raid the good organization. David I am curious do you ever think the Phillies did anything wrong. I really believe you work for them. but could be wrong.

        1. Yeah, sure, send John Middleton an e-mail, that will work. I’m sure they’ll hail him down on his yacht and relay the message and you’ll get a reply pronto. Come on Roccom – stop it!

        2. I’ve said over the last several years that the Phillies PTB have done an awful lot wrong. Still, I think this was a good deal.

  12. I wonder at the end of the season where the Phillies rank in terms of farm systems. They have to be in the upper half now.

    Lehigh Valley is going to be a great place to watch a game next season.

    1. Keith Law published an updated Top 5 farm systems a few weeks ago and made mention in there that the Phils could be in year end consideration for that list if they move Hamels and others and get good value. I’m paraphrasing but he said something like that. I think after this Hamels trade, they are certainly top 10, maybe top 5. And considering that’s after the graduation of Franco and Nola – pretty good position to be in.

  13. wish i could figure out why Hamels refused to go to Houston- seems like a great situation for him there.
    after LA was out of the picture, i feared alot worse trade than this. Sure turn out better than the Lee and Schilling deals at least. You can argue they got a starting pitcher, catcher and corner outfielder that are better than any the Phils currently have in A through AAA, and a couple other pitchers who could contribute. in today’s climate, thats not bad.

    1. Astros are the Phillies of the south, a few spurts of greatness followed by years of ineptness. I wouldn’t want to go there either.

      1. Yeah, but the Astros are under new and much more enlightened leadership now. They are likely to be a strong franchise for the balance of Cole Hamels’ career. It really can’t be about the team. He must not like the city.

        1. He did not want to go to the AL with a few very specific exceptions, in this case, his wife is from Dallas and has alot of close relatives there, so he was willing.

  14. A piece of flight MH370 found and Cole Hamels traded on the same day. The piece of a wing might be from MH370 and the haul we got from the Rangers looks strong in quantity and possibly very good in quality. In both cases, we’ll just have to wait to see.

    I knew that no matter what the Phils got in trade, it would never be enough for some. Hamels is a top of the rotation starter who was wasted in Philly. Get what you can and move on. The Rangers might win a couple of World Series and the Phillies might have gotten a couple injury problems and a couple of cup of coffee guys but what would they have if he wasn’t traded. A few more wins and still 100+ losses. Other potential trades might have been better but I can assure you they could definitely be much worse.

  15. Time for MLB to rework the Phillies Top 30…again….oh wait…Benny R. could be headed out west somewhere tomorrow, they better wait until Monday.

  16. Ah, I see that Roccom is still lecturing people here.

    Good trade. That’s how you reboot a farm system.

  17. Riggs ty problem is this riggs. I piss people off but I am mostly right on my post. must drive guys like you nuts.

      1. Name one time I posted and was wrong. You are always wrong and think you know this game. I Prove Larry wrong many times his bad posts on prospects. told you about dom brown. You to me are just someone who really watches the game but doesn’t know it. I Would have rather taken Williams Thompson. and someone else. payed no money and use that 20 million on a Cuban player who is more likely to make a impact than these guys, to pay almost 33 million and not get mazara is nuts to me.but only you know this game. lmao,

        1. Also to praise myself told you after watching him pitch numerous times. Didn’t think henry owens was a good starter. Two weeks later Phillies wouldn’t touch him in a trade. but you keep believe you know something. It makes you feel good. I don’t do saber. I look at the players and make my judgement while you sit on twitter and follow people who you think are great. if they knew so much they would be in a someones fo.

          1. “Also to praise myself..” LOL, that is funny. When you are right, others praise you. You don’t need to praise yourself to make a point.

  18. If you don’t like this trade, then you simply don’t like trading for prospects. Which is fair, because prospects don’t always pan out.

    But if (like me) you recognize that taking risk on high value prospects is the only way to rebuild, then this is as good as it gets.
    – 3 top 100 prospects
    – #2 rated catcher in minors with 2 80 grade tools
    – an elite 21yo CF who was ranked #20 in BP’s mid season rankings and was recently given a 70 grade on his hit tool. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/prospects/eyewitness_bat.php?reportid=84
    – A top flight SP who is 21 in AA with #2 upside
    – 2 backend/relief arms with plus fastballs.

    I love this trade. Our farm is now stacked and you can see a real plan in place. Add in 1:1 this upcoming draft and a huge FA haul in a year or two and we have the makings of a great team for a long time.

    Hat tip to Gillick and RAJ

    1. I’m glad to hear you say this V1. Last night I was not happy. I valued Ortiz and Mazzaro simple as that if Gallo was off the table.

      I didn’t value Alfaro as I liken him to Valle and we all remember the year we had Valle as our #4 ranked prospect even though all the warning signs were there.

      I do like Williams I think there is everyday potential there as a floor. Maybe not star but solid contributor.

      And if Thompson some how turns into a 3+ starter I guess you are doing ok.

      I do love Eickoff and Asher as the throw ins. Eickhoff has a live FB so if he develops some command he could be really good.

      I just didn’t want a bunch of could be’s I wanted 2 he is going to be’s if that makes sense.

      1. Don’t put too much stock into Alfaro’s stats and this is coming from a guy who believes in stats. Catchers take longer to develop than other positions. It is a very demanding position.

        1. It is, I understand he has a power bat, which is great. My concern is the hit tool and the plate discipline combined with uneven defensive reports. I view him a little more like a high risk/high reward player than the other players in the trade but because the trade is so rich with strong prospects, it was smart to throw in a guy like that. It makes a lot of sense. If he doesn’t work out, it won’t kill the trade and if he plays on a par with Knapp (I realize their skills are very different), they can keep one and flip the other.

          1. Agreed. If Alfaro is the headliner, then it is a high risk deal. But he is basically the 3rd piece. Getting the #2 rated catcher in the minor leagues as the 3rd piece in a deal is unbelievable. Catchers with 80 tools are very, very hard to find/get.

    2. If the Phillies are smart, they will be bad again next year (it won’t be hard to do – just shed all but a few veterans and let the young kids fight for playing time) and then should add at least two significant free agent signings between the 2016 and 2017 seasons (no loss of first round pick that way) and hopefully hit the ground running in 2017. Certainly all of the stars (payroll, team performance, likely emergence of younger players) seem to align in that way. It’s possible this team is pretty good in 2017 (or at least getting much better) if they play their cards right.

      1. I agree with Hinkie when it comes to FAs. Top FAs don’t want to go to losing teams unless you way over pay. So I don’t see how they will be able to add top guys like Heyward this off season unless they over pay big time. It would be better to show a core of guys coming up and playing and then go out and get some FAs. Likely gonna be bad for a few season, but then…watch out!

      2. I think the Phillies have little choice but to be bad next year. Not as bad as this year, but for sure top 10 pick bad and likely top 5 bad.

  19. looking at Williams, he struck out in 30% of at bats last year, but has that down to 20% this year, but 39 career steals vs 23 caughts, including 10/8 this year.
    Thompson’s ERA jumped by a run over his last 4 starts- he got selected for the Pan Am Games- went 2 innings for whatever reason in his 2 starts after that, and since returning has given up 11 runs in 11 innings. however, looks like he did well at Pan am Games

    http://m.mlb.com/news/article/136861128/jake-thompson-has-10-strikeouts-in-pan-am-game

    Asher and Eickoff- decent stats considering they are in the PCL.

    1. Asher and Eickoff back of the end guys it appears…but could be serviceable.
      Thompson though could challenge for a 2ceiling and 3floor IMO.

    2. I have said before, don’t put much weight in ERA. Minor league pitchers often work on certain pitches and will shelve a good pitch for a few games.

      The kid has great stuff and command as a 21yo. He is now our best pitching prospect by far (Nola excluded).

      1. totally agree- was just pointing out circumstances around Thompson’s current ERA- i think if we first just saw a headline that they got Thompson, Williams, Alfaro plus 3 other pitchers, the reactions from some might be better- not seeing the injured Alfaro as the headliner.

  20. as with any deal that involves an established stud for prospects, you can sum up this deal as a sure thing in exchange for six lottery tickets. let’s all hope we get lucky!

    1. Interesting, but most of those comments appear reactionary and not particularly well informed or thought out. Not much to go on, and I sure wouldn’t put much stock in them.

  21. Thoughts on Diekman being part of the deal. First, I think this is a win for the Sabermetrics Department for the Phillies. He’s 28 years old on a team that doesn’t need a inconsistent lefty reliever in a rebuilding process. I think the term is LOOGY but I’m not sure. This is something we all wished they did 5 years ago. Trade players before their 30th birthday. I also think Texas didn’t want the Von Hayes label on this deal. Trading 5 for 1.

    Kudos too to the front office for taking a page out of the Sam Hinkie playbook. Take on an “expiring contract”…this is tongue in cheek but it makes sense for both teams.

    Now what happens to the 40 man roster after the last couple of days and does anyone know about Rule 5 for the two lesser prospects? Also what was the nature of Alfaro’s surgery on the ankle? Alfaro was the #2 Texas prospects before the MLB revised rankings this week.

    1. are rosin and danks still on the 40 man? plus joely rodriquez, tommy joseph, jerome williams candidates to be removed.

      1. They are still on. Rosin and Danks certainly will come off, as will Hamel and Utley. I would get Howard off, even if it required releasing him. Actually, I’d trade Howard to Howard: give him all but $5 mill of his money and let him make the best deal he can for himself, first telling him that if he returns to Philly it is as a pinch hitter. He might take it. He might latch on for the rest of this season as a DH on an AL team, maybe even a contender.

    2. it was a tendon in left ankle; apparently hurt it taking a secondary lead on basepaths, and they eventually decided on surgery.

  22. This is a better prospect haul then what we gave up for Halladay at the time. If you go solely off of mid-season rankings, we got 3 top 50 ranked players in BP’s rankings. Our package for Halladay didn’t have that.

  23. A few other points:
    1. Apparently, this wasn’t the best package we could have gotten. Because Hamels turned down going to Houston.
    2. Taking Matt Harrison instead of just money is a very savvy move. His stats are terrible right now, but he is coming back from an injury and has had good seasons. If he turns it around next year, he could be a trade chip next July.
    3. Finally, I think we can kill the “teams don’t trade top prospects” meme. Maybe top, top, top prospects who are near MLB (like the Seager/JP Crawford types) don’t get moved, but this offseason has seen a lot of top 25 prospects (and even more top 100) prospects traded. It just comes down to value in return.

    1. I don’t always agree with v1again, but I do appreciate the points he brings to the conversation. However, I do agree with him on this trade, and getting rid of an inconsistent bullpen piece is more than ok with me. Look what we got back for Bastardo, and he was more consistent than Diekman.

  24. I wonder if Larry is still reading the site. There was an ongoing debate about what you could get for top players on long terms expensive contracts and Larry was typically low balling the haul the Phillies could receive for such players. I think many of us kept saying – yeah, Larry, we hear you about value and your arguments are perfectly logical, but teams at the trade deadline often go over the top to get a top player on their roster. I realize I’m arguing with an empty chair, which is completely unfair to Larry, but I think this trade is an example of how big of a haul you can get (although it’s not as big, in my opinion, as the BP and MLB ratings might suggest) when a team fixates on obtaining a player. Overpays happen all of the time, but they happen when certain circumstances arise – one of those circumstances is when a team decides at the trade deadline that it must have a player and it has prospects to burn. That’s what happened here.

    1. The Phillies economic power (absorbing the salary of an unwanted player and some of the salary of the top player traded) also allowed this deal to come to fruition.

    2. I am not sure how anyone can be disappointed in this deal. We got a very good prospect haul that increases the value of the farm system and sets the stage for the arrival of everyone by 2017.

      This trade moved the rebuild forward by a year.

    3. I do miss LarryM he brought a certain perspective to the board and even when I didn’t agree with him he made me think.

        1. LOL Rocco no, no way would he have left because of Romus. Romus is the least polarizing figure here which is why you and I who disagree with eachother so much both love us some Romus.

        1. Meh short of Nola and Crawford what prospects were here between 2008 and this Feb15 to be really excited about.

          I’ll admit I was a fanboy of some pretty ridiculous prospects using hindsight. But that’s the point go out on a limb and like a guy, tell everyone why you like him, be challenged to defend it.

        2. That’s actually very much not true. I was enthusiastic about many Phillies prospects. I just never (well, rarely) jumped aboard the bandwagon on the “flavor of the month” prospects (often either players with SSS high batting averages, or very old for level, or both).

          The only time that I was seriously wrong about a prospect was Brown – but I was wrong in the opposite sense, and anyway a lot of people were wrong about him. Except roccom, who has been wrong about almost everything else. 🙂 And then there’s Asche – despite my push back against the “future star” contingent, I actually thought fairly highly of him. Jury still out, but it looks like I was wrong on that – but again in the direction of being too optimistic.

          I can’t really think of a single prospect who has been significantly better than I expected. Ceasar Hernandez arguably – but he’s not doing THAT much better than I projected, and it remains to be seen if this season’s improvements are sustainable.

    4. There was an lmagitti (sp?) posting a few days ago that sounded a lot like Larry … I assumed it was him.

    5. I pretty strongly disagreed with LarryM’s posit that we could only get one back end of the top 50 prospect, that said, we weren’t that far apart. I thought 2, he thought 1, we got 3 (though I also recall arguing adamantly with him about how adding salary can significantly improve return.)

      Do miss his presence here though.

      1. We did also include Dieckman and saved them $40 mill. Without the $, you don’t get that big a haul. Didn’t Larry concede that you could get more than 1 top 50, if you sent that kind of $?

          1. To add to this …

            I never entirely rejected the “better prospects for money” argument. I pushed back against what I thought were the more extreme versions of that.

            One point that I didn’t make (but neither did the people who I disagreed with) is that the most likely way to inject $ into the transaction is to do so indirectly, by taking on a big contract – which is what happened here. From the perspective of both the selling and buying teams, that kind of transaction looks better than a straight large cash injection into the transaction (though yes, those do occur – but more often for players with bad contracts).

            Here, as in many instances, subtle distinctions got lost because of my tone.

            1. Let’s not forget that the “add money to the deal” argument was made (mostly) in the context of arguing that we could get an elite prospect – I think Betts specifically was one of the names bruited around when he was the flavor of the day.

              It’s kind of fun to revisit the Betts argument. One argument I made about Betts was that, even setting aside a longer period of team control and far lower salary, he was fairly likely to be more valuable going forward than Hamels even in absolute terms. So far vindicated (if you use WAR as a metric). Betts 2.8 fWAR so far this year, Hamels 2.7 fWAR this year. Okay, that’s too close to mean anything, but given their relative ages, I’d put my money on Betts being more valuable going forward.

    6. Actually I feel more vindicated than otherwise, but I’ll start with the one thing that I did clearly get wrong: I said that I didn’t think 3 top 100 prospects for Hamels were possible, and they got three top 100 prospects.

      Otherwise, I was pretty much dead on. First, some context: I was mainly arguing against people with truly out-sized expectations: an elite prospect, or even multiple elite prospects. Obviously the Phillies didn’t get that, and it is reflected int he dissatisfaction of several commenters here.

      What I said:

      (1) Front offices are much more reluctant to trade prospects, especially elite prospects, than they were. Certainly vindicated by events. Now, for many of us, Catch included, this is so obviously true that it scarcely bears mentioning. But still not accepted by many here.

      (2) I always said that Hamels could get one, maybe two, good prospects. In fact, I thought (and predicted) that the headliner would be a top 50 prospect. As much as I like these guys, none of them are consensus top 50 prospects (though at least 2 if not all 3 have been on someone’s top 50 list at some point). The consensus on all three guys is in the 55-65 range.

      (3) I said that getting more than one top 100 prospect was more likely if the headline prospect was not a top 50 prospect. Again, vindicated by events (though again, 3 instead of 2 was more than I expected).

      (4) I said that there was a lot of variation between organizations, and that the organizations with the biggest need for Hamels and the resources to acquire him (in terms of prospects and money) tended to be the most conservative in terms of trading prospects. That proved true for the most part – hence relative low ball offers from the Cubs, Boston, LA, and the Yankees. But in this case “for the most part” is the key phrase here. The Rangers were always one of the few clubs with a slightly higher willingness to trade prospects (though still holding on to their top 2 or 3 guys) and the resources to make a deal. When they got off to a poor start, they seemed to take themselves out of the market. But once they decided they wanted Hamels, they were far and away the most likely team to give up a solid package of prospects.

      Big picture – no one but no one – certainly not I – claimed that teams no longer trade good prospects. They are in general more reluctant to trade good prospects, and they almost never trade elite prospects. That’s been further confirmed by events this years.

      1. I will add that I think it’s possible that Williams ends up making this eventually looking like a ridiculously good deal for the Phillies – he has made tremendous progress this year, and could be an elite prospect 12 months from now. But that’s always possible – a lot of the best deals (from the perspective of the team acquiring a prospect) are deals where the prospect ends up being much better than expected at the time of the trade. Clearly the Rangers don’t think that’s the most likely possibility, or he would not have been included in the deal.

        1. Though from what I’ve read his fielding is problematic and he will be limited to LF. He needs to hit really well to be more than a solid regular. But he might!

      2. Oh no, you are back
        Please do not use the Dragon software.
        War and peace!
        Welcome back however.

  25. I just totally stumbled upon this chat on BA from a couple days ago. Interesting question asked by a Rangers fan – note the comments on Williams. Works for me:

    Steve (Wilmington): How would you rank the Rangers OF prospects Mazara, NIck Williams and Lewis Brinson? How close are they to each other?
    Ben Badler: I like that order for now, with Mazara/Williams a clear ways ahead of Brinson, but I could see flipping Williams ahead of Mazara by the end of the season. They’re both going to give you at least plus power, with Mazara having the higher OBP ceiling, but Williams bringing more athleticism, speed and defensive potential to the table, although the polish in the field still needs time. I’m very much a believer in the offensive strides Williams has made with his approach this year.

  26. This trade looks to be more about the bats than pitching. Nick Williams, Jorge Alfaro, Crawford and Franco is nice young group of bats. Lack of offense is true undoing of this franchise recently so it was nice to see Phillies address this in draft and trade. The pitchers could be brothers, all tall big guys who throw 90+. But they don’t have potential of bats acquired but could be workhorses.

  27. I was hoping to see at least 1 top 10 MLB prospect (or 1 or 2 in a teams system).

    What’s the deal on Jorge’s ankle injury? He looking like the best chance for power at his position. Still reeling over the Pence for Joseph trade.

    I’m hearing projections on Williams as only 20 homer potential. I was homing for a 30 – 35 somewhere in this haul. What’s the difference here vs Altherr?

    I guess only time will tell, but would have rather more power. We are stock with bottom of the order SP’s already.

    1. I don’t like Alfaro at all, but that said i don’t really like any catching prospects because the bar is so f’ing low on offense at that position that even crap performance is appealing.

      Your point about being 1 or 2 in a teams system is irrelevant. Where they rank nationally is. Getting 3 guys in the mid-season top 50 + one or two more who are fringe top 100 is an excellent return.

      I was expected 2 top 50 players, not 3 + a few other interesting arms.

      1. Alfaro has violent bat and great arm. You have to go out of your way not like that. He might be out of position but 80 hit tool for catcher are hard to find.

        1. And while I appreciate him being a batting practice warrior, my concern is all that skill has yet to manifested itself in games with any consistency.

          Not saying it won’t, but he requires a lot of projection given his age.

      2. Hey Supra, ya I guess my outlook on life is that nothing is irrelevant unless someone is just being a jerk.

        Being just a baseball fan with aspirations of running a baseball team, farm system, or sabermetrics studio. I guess my point is would have liked to see them get someone who is a MLB difference maker prospect if your giving up a difference maker player.

        Let me define what I mean by difference maker…. Hamels, Hallady, Lee, Howard, Utley, Rollins, Victorino, Werth, Ibanez, Pence. They are all players that when they were hot could carry a team. They were players that were worth going to a ball park and putting up with the traffic, costs, etc to see.

        As someone stated above we got 6 lottery tickets for a known player who was worth watching.

    2. Altherr was two levels lower and had 100+ lower OPS during his age 21 season. I have high hopes for Altherr and he has come a long way and I hope he can become a major league regular, which would be awesome. I think Williams is in a different class and has a much higher ceiling and better chance to reach it.

      1. 100% accurate. The question on Williams to me is really about his approach at the plate. People had the same concerns about Franco and he’s proven to have a decent walk rate at the MLB level.

        He’s looked good this year, especially at the beginning of the year. Jury is still out but:

        him with a below average approach = .280 BA w/ 15 HR’s.

        Him with an average approach = .300 BA w/ 20 HR’s

        I’d be happy to have either, but .300 + 20HR’s is a borderline perennial all-star (depending on OBP)

    3. What’s the difference between Altherr and Williams? Be serious. Williams is 21, Altherr is 24. When Altherr was 21, he was barely surviving Low A ball. Williams is performing better in AA as a 21 year old, than Altherr did as a 24 year old.

  28. I tend to list to this guy:

  29. I would love to hear what LarryM had to say, but I have read all of these, and I dislike RAJ and think this whole team demise is at the feet of ownership. But, I think that they did a very good job with this trade. Alfaro, Thompson and Williams join to top 5 or 6 in the Phillies prospect rankings. The only sure prospect ahead of them is JP. Alfaro is a legit power bat and power arm who can stick at C. Williams is a legit hitter, and when I first heard the trade, my thought was, this is ok, but I wish they had gotten Jake Thompson, also. And, they did. My preference, keep Hamels, and sign Zimmermann, Heyward and Wieters in the off season. But, that was not going to happen. And it does not matter what Houston offered. Cole had no-trade rights and did not want Houston. So, with all of the bashing we do here, it is only fair to acknowledge that they did far better than I thought they would.

    1. Yeah I don’t like RAJ, but… each of his moves over the last year have been solid or better. And this, being probably the most important move, was by far the best.

      Doesn’t mean I want him to stay, but I think he’s probably gonna get himself another shot at GM duties somewhere else in baseball (presuming he’s fired and not promoted or retained).

      1. His non-moves have been good of late as well. My guess is he’ll be retained in some capacity – otherwise I think he would have been fired.

    2. You can bust my chops for saying that RAJ has been doing a good job but since he started dealing in the offseason the farm system has gone from the 20’s to potentially a top 5.

      That is quality work and while we knew this and next year would be difficult the team is very well positioned for the future.

      What did we need to get out of this trade?

      Power corner OF prospect/1B/C

      We got 2 of the 3.

      Now let’s see what value we can get for the guys in the field and any of the starters, if any. Call up a couple of young players and play out the season.

  30. I think he will be promoted. I don’t think Middleton lets him do this deal otherwise. I am confident, and that is quite a statement about Phils ownership, that they bring in an analytics guy and really start to build up that part of the team structure..

  31. I sometimes wonder how teams like the cardinals and Atlanta seem to get good trades. I am really stump. and maybe cause i am just reading mlb. But how does st Louis give up a really good prospect for moss. I would love to get that pitcher.

        1. Yes it its, i am actually Robin williams and i came back from the dead to relay my thoughts on a phillies prospects message board…

  32. I agree Roccom……the Braves getting Touki Toussaint for a utility player like Phil Gosselin

    1. The Braves got Toussaint in exchange for agreeing to take on Bronson Arroyo’s contract plus Gosselin. Not saying the Phils couldn’t have done that, but it wasn’t Toussaint straight up for Gosselin.

  33. Agree that we don’t seem to get those steals like Toussaint or Kaminsky. In terms of this deal, one way to look at it is to compare the prospects to those already in our system. JP is basically a 65 grade, top 10, essentially untouchable – like Gallo. Nola is a 60, top 20-25, like Mazzara. I wouldn’t include Nola in a trade for Hamels. Franco was a 55 grade, top 50-75. We essentially got 2 Francos (Thompson and Alfaro) – albeit one currently injured. I would put Nick Williams between Franco and Nola, maybe closer to Nola at this moment because his stock is rising.

    Also, the AAA pitchers aren’t nothings. They’re both hard throwers and have good peripheral stats. ERA’s are high, but they pitch in a hitters league.

    It’s difficult to completely analyze the trade without knowing what other offers were out there, but if the choice is this deal or hold onto Hamels, I take the deal.

  34. Overall, I think the Phillies did well in the deal. Don’t know that they “won” the deal because I don’t think that they got sure fire all-star in the deal but they appear to have recieved several future major league regulars. What Houston might have been offering doesn’t really matter.

    What I don’t get are the complaints about the money part because they obviously used their financial resources to increase the number and quality of prospects they got back. They basically paid the remainder of Cole’s 2015 salary which isn’t ususual since most teams don’t have piles of extra $$$ available once their budget is set for the season.

    For years, many have complained about the team being too cheap to pay for prospects in the draft/international market but these same people are now complaining because they spent money to pay for better prospects in a trade.

  35. so at this point, next years second highest paid Phil is Harrison, and the third highest is Cliff Lee’s buyout, then Ruiz, then….Miguel Gonzalez?

  36. I Don’t know if I am doing this right. But with this trade we are on the books next year counting , buyout of cliff lee and Utley’s 2 million. plus new guy from texas contract for about 62 million. I think that is right. I Believe that would leave us a lot of money for a nice young Cuban signing..

    1. Yes, and although it’s easy to forget, that’s the other part of the return for Hamels: what we do (MLB FA or over-23 Cuban) with the money we would have paid Cole during the remainder of his contract.

    2. rocco…correctomundo…..Yeonis Jorge Antonio Miguel Alvarez…..16-year old phenom…wants $200M

    3. Rocco what is your infatuation with Cubans? When is the last time a Cuban won an MVP or CY Young.

      Having said that maybe you get your wish with the whole Middleton Cigar Connections and all!

      1. DMAR:
        rocco thinks the Cubans roll better cigars then Dominicans……but Kosmo Kramer knows best.

      2. I just like a puig who is good and young. or a chapman put one of those types on our team with the young kids and the money we have and its a fast rebuild,

        1. rocco……besides have great talented super-skilled players….a team may need a leader with those same skills who will come to the forefront and challenge his teammates in times of uncertainty and distress. Like JRoll did after ’07 and his claim about beating the Mets….it wasn’t all about stirring about the Mets but he also awoke his teammates to strive for excellence.
          Not sure Latin-born players are comfortable being ‘the man or the leader’ in predominantly English-speaking locker rooms with Norte Americano players. Over the years the Clementes, Marichals, and Pedro to some degree and a few others were able to do it.
          Just not sure they can be that for the young guys coming up.

    4. So the new Cuban 2nd base man will be the new face of the Phillies. Don’t worry about the new GM or manager or hitting coach. Just get Rocco a new Cuban player he always wanted sign him to a Hugh back ended contact .

      1. Your a sick person tim What second basemen did I say. I said we can go after a young Cuban with the extra money. why am I answering you I am sick just reading your comments. omg.

        1. Most of the talented young Cuban talent was signed by the big market teams. The yanks , Boston, Dodgers, Cubs oh wait were market team too. Oh knows maybe we can trade Dom Brown and Williams one.

  37. By my account the Phillies saved $21 million over the next 2 years by taking Harrison’s deal(not counting his buyout year) and not Cole’s. Another $13million not having to pay Papelbon. Lee’s contract off the books. I not saying we need to sign high priced FA.

  38. We all agree that they saved a lot of $ however we count it. And, although I like the trade for what we got in return, being still dismayed at what was done to the franchise to get to this point, the fact remains that we do not have any idea what they will do with the money. Does anyone have any belief at all, that they will be in on the next big-name Cuban? Or how about all of the pitchers available as Free Agents this off-season? Anyone wagering they get any of the top 8?. There is a lot of work to be done just to not be the worst team in the league again, and I still have to see who they hire and what they do. A couple of decent returns and a couple of good drafts is a long way from rebuilding this thing

  39. I am not disagreeing with you David, just posing the idea that we don’t have any idea how the new regime will do going forward. We all know they will have a load of $ and heard Middleton express that they will use their $ to build the team. As we have no meaningful trade pieces left, we have to watch the prospects grow and develop and hope that MacPhail and whoever he brings in are smart and aggressive. They will need to be both.

  40. Red Sox take on Hamels Deal:
    “In the end, the Red Sox weren’t in position to jump into the final Hamels sweepstakes.
    According to a major league source, the no-trade protection in Hamels’s contract, which gave him the right to veto deals to 20 teams, including the Red Sox, “really controlled” the Phillies’ trade talks. Because of the no-trade protection, according to the source, the Red Sox did not feel they were “ever in a position” to trade for the lefthander as Friday’s trade deadline approached.”

    ….so really it wasn’t the 15 untouchables on their farm…but Cole’s no-trade clause that was the hang-up….right!

    1. The RedSox are a burning dumpster fire right now. As crazy as this might seem initially, if you think about it for a second, the Phillies are in a better situation than the Sox.

      First, if you include the 1:1 pick next year, we will have a comparable farm system IMO. Maybe a slight edge to them, but it is close.

      However, their major league team is a friggin mess with a lot of very, very bad contracts. The Phillies on the other hand will only have 1 year left of Howard and no other big contracts after this year (as Utley won’t vest). The next highest contract (besides Lee’s $12.5m buyout) is Chooch at $8.5 million, which comes off the books after 2016. The next highest salary is Revere (who might be traded by tomorrow) at $4 mil.

      So basically, we have a clean slate to build from. While Boston has a lot of bad, long term contracts and zero pitching.

      1. Agree….never thought about it in that way…but that is correct. Sandoval, Porcello and Hanley’s contracts are lead-weights on their financial situation for a few years.
        I would not be surprise if the Sox Nation starts going after Benny C as Philly did with Ruben

        1. Let’s not forget the Sox still employ Bill the sabr god James: Well , here’s another nice mess you’ve gotten me into Ollie!”

      2. Phillies do get the first pick in December’s Rule 5 also I think. So there may another young asset. You can never have too many Doobies.

  41. In transactions involving rich people, money always matters. That’s how the rich remain rich.

    The contention made by some that money is not a significant consideration in trades, particularly for wealthy teams, is pure nonsense.

    By my rough calculation, the Hamels’ trade is costing the Phils $42 million ($9.5 million in direct cash and $32.5 million in salary to Harrison) if the high-risk Harrison does nothing over the next two years.

    Without the money, the Phils could not have gotten such a haul for Hamels.

  42. I agree with the idea of sucking it up one more year (2016 season), taking the bumps and then looking to add FA and trade pieces for the 2017 season. That will likely add a #1 overall pick in 2016 and a top 5 pick in 2017 to the mix of talent. That combined with the state of the system today and the rest of the next 2 drafts and Latin American additions should give the Phillies a nice base from which to maneuver going forward. I say there is no need to rush into things this off season. Build it right from the base and the team should have a better chance for success long term.

  43. Welcome back LarryM; good to hear from you. If we are extremely lucky 1.1 next year is the next Cole Hamels. It is amazing, isn’t it, that he is the best drafted and developed SP in 50 years!

  44. hey, vance worley is available; somehow he’s still only 27..
    would rather watch him then Williams, OSullivan and company

    1. Deja Vous all over again Phillies trade Ben Revere to Pirates for Vance Worley, now that would be fun

  45. At this point and based on current talent in the Phillies’ system, the Phils should be worse in 2016, not better. I will withhold any predictions about 2016, though, until we see what management does this off-season.

    Since the team is not going anywhere for awhile, I would favor the Phils’ getting No. 1 draft picks in both 2016 and 2017 and top 10 picks in 2018 and, maybe, 2019.

    If Middleton and McPhail shake things up in a positive way, maybe the Phils become competitive by 2018. We have to wait and see.

    1. Since it appears pitchers are the only key FAs anymore…..what 27-year old pitchers now, are coming out in 2017?

  46. I am a big Phils fan, grew up in Philly and now live in dallas. I have to say in general that while I am not happy to see Cole leave philly, i am glad to see him head to Dallas. As far as the value I do believe that the phils did get pretty good value. I think that Nick Williams will be the best player of the bunch, and if he can play CF then I actually like him better as the overall player over Mazara. I have seen them both play probably 5 or 6 times. Mazara has more power potential, but Williams is the better athlete. Unfortunately haven’t had the pleasure of seeing Thompson pitch or Alfaro play much as most of the games i have been to where after the injury. I will say thought that the Rangers AA stadium, frisco rough riders, is a great hitters park. Getting 3 top 50 or so prospects plus some other near major league ready bodies is a good haul. I also wouldn’t sleep on Harrison. He used to be a top of the rotation lefty and even though injuries have derailed his career, he has the potential to be a nice piece in the rotation. And if he performs he can be traded next year or the year after.
    I have the 97.5 radio on my phone so i can listen to my home town sports, and i have to say it is hilarious that both cities sports talk stations hate the trade, so that in its self tells me that it was a good trade for both teams.
    I have been reading this site for years and don’t comment very often, but I felt that this momentous occasion deserved a comment. Cole was a philly great and it is a sad day, but as we turn over a new leaf, at least it is looking like that leaf has the potential to be very green.

  47. Philytex, it was great to hear from you and I echo Romus. When both teams’ fanbases dislike the trade it usually is a pretty good one. I always believe that the team that gets the best player comes out ahead, so that would be the Rangers, but, overall, the Phils did better than I hoped for. With luck, a couple of the pieces turn out very well. I have liked Jake Thompson, think Willams is a legit hitter and good, athletic OF, and Alfaro has serious potential at a key position. And, would rather take a flyer that Harrison mounts a comeback than just send a check to Texas.

    1. I can see the 2017 batting line up Kingery, Crawford, N Williams , Jay Bruce, Franco, Hoskins or Martin , Randolph , Knapp Nola.

  48. Houston trades Brett Phillips, 2 pitching prospects, not named Appel or McCullers, and Domingo Santana to Brewers for Fiers and Carlos Gomez. I think that is quite a nice deal for the Brewers. If Cole agreed to go to Houston and the deal was Phillips, Santana, Appel and McCullers, would that be better than the Rangers deal?

  49. Of course that’s better than the Rangers deal, but Houston would never make that deal. McCullers is 21, makes the league minimum and is pitching like an ace. They’re not gonna trade him.

    BTW, with regards to Vance Worley who was DFA’d, do we get first crack at him since we have the worst record? Seems like a no brainer. He’s still pretty effective, is only 27 and is controlled through 2018.

  50. Why would the phillies eat so much cash and still not get their top prospects? I understand the rangers couldn’t absorb with Harrisons salary, but Gallo should have been one of the players in the deal.

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