Open Discussion: Week of June 15th

Here’s an open discussion thread so the minor league posts don’t get cluttered with Phillies’ talk and other topics.

Draft Tracker is pinned at the top of the site.  No signings official, but a few kids are reporting to Clearwater tomorrow.

Some random stuff to light a fire –

  • If Freddie Galvis can’t make a routine throw … never mind.
  • They finally promoted Nola to LHV.
  • Well, he should have been promoted to Philadelphia.
  • Or, they should have left him in Reading.
  • Does Chase Utley have any options left?
  • The Phillies now have the worst record in baseball.
  • Who’s going to last in Philly longer, Giles or Sandberg/McClure/Bowa?  My first thought when I saw the clip was, “Really?  They’re going to get in the face of the guy who actually has a future in Philadelphia?”

181 thoughts on “Open Discussion: Week of June 15th

  1. 10 Most Important Things that need to Happen between now and October:

    10 Chase Utley goes on a July hot streak and gets traded for a good prospect

    9 One of Asche, Galvis, or Herrerra plays well enough the last 3+ months of the season that they are established as an everyday player for the Phils for 2016 and beyond

    8 Jonathan Papelbon, Ben Revere, Aaron Harang, and Ryan Howard can all be moved with a modest return of mid-range prospects.

    7 Phils get several HS players signed from this years draft.

    6 Phils go big on the international spending front like they never have before, including landing a high profile Cuban OF.

    5 Randolph and Kingery as top picks get off to starts like Crawford and Nola, rather than Greene Jr and Hewitt.

    4 JP Crawford, Mikael Franco, and Aaron Nola all continue to stay healthy and have success, solidifying all 3 as key members of the Phils for many years.

    3 Phils finish with the worst record, securing them the #1 pick.

    2 Cole Hamels stays healthy, pitches great, and gets traded for a top 25 prospect (power hitting OF please), a top 100 prospect (catcher please), and a third prospect (A ball power arm with big upside).

    1 Ruben Amaro does not receive a contract extension or promotion.

      1. I hate to break it to you two but Ruben most likely will be the President replacing Gillick who is a temporary replacement. A new GM outside the organization or Gillick himself will be hired to appease the fans who still don’t understand that the management group runs the Phillies not the GM. The GM does not make every decision and he reports to the Phillies ownership. This situation happened before with the 1976-1983 Phillies core of Carlton, Schmidt and Maddox. If anything we are in a slightly better position than the previous era in terms of young talent.

        1. Again – if Ruben becomes club president that is a full-on, complete and unmitigated disaster. Far, far worse than his staying another year or two as the GM. The main reason that the Phillies have suffered through decade after decade of bad baseball is because two well-intentioned but fairly incompetent men, Bill Giles and Dave Montgomery, have been hand picking the GMs, setting the tone for the organization, making critical final baseball decisions and setting team policy. This job is about making baseball judgments at the highest level. One thing that we do know about Ruben is that he is entirely incompetent in terms of making baseball judgments – his decision-making “acumen” has resulted the deconstruction of a relatively young world championship team into the laughing stock of baseball. He does not have a keen eye for talent, does not understand or accept modern analytics, is entirely uncreative in handling salaries, is petulant, and, frankly, in terms of running a baseball team the only thing he has shown is that he is bad at it – REALLY bad at it. And you want this man hand-picking your GM and pushing for which players to keep and which players to discard? Why on earth would you want that?

          1. catch…..Ruben was there but not a decision-maker, but between 2003 and 2011, the Phillies totaled 818 regular season wins averaging 91 wins a season over those 9 seasons, with 5 divisions seasons and one WS championship. Somebody had to be doing something right in that front-office.

            1. Yes, some things were done correctly and they were extremely fortunate with a handful of draft picks. But I’d argue that Ruben was not a central figure in any of this.

              Look, I don’t care at all if they kick Ruben upstairs – I just don’t want him picking the new GM (or GMs) or making final decisions on baseball issues. To put a finer point on this – picking the right GM and letting that person do his (or her) job will be the most important decision of the next decade for this team. I definitely don’t want Ruben making that decision.

            2. catch…just as Gillick was brought in out of the organization back after Ed Wade’s exit…..another ‘outside’ GM should be brought in as well..
              Now, who that may be ….do not have a clue…but sure there are capable young Asst GMs out there who, if young, probably are keenly aware of analyticals.

          2. Catch, because he would be in charge of the day to day non baseball operations not on the field operations. I think you are letting your emotions get in the way of objective thinking.

        2. Agreed. I suspect that Montgomery and the owners, and probably the marketing department, forced the Howard extension. No GM just decides to create a $125MM extension on his own.

          Problem with your scenario is that he doesn’t seem to be good at hiring good staff. Joe Jordan and Scott Proefrock don’t seem like brilliant AGMs. Almanzar seems like a good hire, but the jury is out.

          1. I would disagree with your opinion of Joe Jordan who has pushed prospects up on a continuous basis. However; maybe not as fast as the fans want. Scott Proefrock helped with the Byrd and Rollins trades which netted us good prospects.

    1. So wait if 2-10 happens Amaro doesn’t deserve an extension? Oh right any good moves that the Phillies make could not possibly be his doing just the numb skull moves.

      Got it!

      1. You can’t undo 5-6 years worth of bad decisions with a good 6 months and expect the next 5-6 years to be good.

        1. I mean no disrespect I just have a different view and some different insights that make up my POV.

          1. There’s a point where perception becomes its own reality — whether you think it’s fair or not. A re-build is going to take time and Amaro can’t be the architect or part of the a-team since there is a nearly universal impression that he can’t read blue prints. You can argue with me or you can argue with the empty blue seats.

            It’s time to bring baseball back to Philly.

    2. 10 Would be nice, not holding my breath
      9 Ditto
      8 Likely,not sure they will be able to move Howard, or move Revere for a decent return.
      7 Already done, can hope for more.
      6 Unlikely
      5 Crawford and Nola set a high bar, but likely closer to them than to the other two.
      4 Important and likely.
      3 Quite possible. At worst they’ll be in the bottom 3 or 4, which will be enough. In most years, #1 is not appreciably better than 3 or 4.
      2 Still a tad optimistic but possible. IMO more likely is 25 to 50, top 100, and a lottery ticket.
      1 We can only hope.

  2. After the way revere played this weekend especially the bone headedc running plays I would be surprised to see the Phillies get an artificial plant in return for him.

    1. An low A prospect or AA prospect with projection would be a good return for Revere. It seem that he is trying too hard and needs to play naturally. However, I would make him practice stealing third base until he gets it right.

      1. Some players have natural physical abilities, but are slow to react mentally. Their bodies are faster then their thought processes. Though I am sure their thought processes are in warp speed also, but fueled with high-octane adrenaline however.
        Shane Vic was like that on the base paths at times. Revere, may be a little too old now to want to learn a new approach.

  3. HerrerrA is the second baseman not a centerfielder. Get Chase outta there and give the rule five player a chance at his natural position.

  4. I would have said send down Herrera to learn the strike zone. But at this point yes put him at second and work on his fielding and hitting at big league level. I Love chase but we cant give him the extension. Think it would be nice just to pay his contract and see if any contender would take him for nothing. most likely a pipe dream but he deserve to go out a winner. not on this mess.

    1. rocco…Herrera will be fine for 2016. He will play winter ball again in the Ven and come back next spring maybe a more complete hitter. He, though, can also be sent down in 2016 if however he is slowed to come around. He has a lot natural talent and has hit at almost every stop along the way.

  5. They can’t send Herrara down this year because he’s Rule 5. The Rangers would likely grab him back in a heartbeat. He’s playing like you’d expect for a player who has skipped AAA and is simultaneously learning a new position.

  6. I know they cant send him down. I said the other day after the season send him down to learn the strike zone. but at this point. work with him and put him at second. see if he can field the position and if he would help us in future, but if he cant learn the strike zone he wont make it , he gets himself out too much right now he is young and can learn. so lets hope he cant become the player we think he can.

  7. Love the discussion points! My thoughts:

    Galvis: The good thing is he at least knows what he has to do to get back to being a successful hitter. I’m okay with his defense; in fact, NL is loaded with good field, no hit shorts stops.

    Nola: Okay with a promotion to LHV. I don’t think at this point he would be much of a step up from Jerome Williams et al. Bring him up in September if he continues to excel in AAA.

    Utley: Does he have any options left? I would bench him and then buy him out. But I’m sure MLBPA would file a complaint that the Phillies were just being cheap, etc.

    Giles: “Really? They’re going to get in the face of the guy who actually has a future in Philadelphia?” I dunno. There’s lots of reasons to can Sandberg, but that decision didn’t seem bad to me. Giles will last longer than Sandberg et al, but can’t act like that on the mound.

  8. Giles acted like an immature baby. He’s too young and not experienced enough to act that way where everyone can see. I’m actually glad that Sandberg and McClure let him hear it. You don’t act like that esp as a young player. Should be seen and not heard

    1. His BB/9 has almost reverted back to his minor league peripherals 4.3 vs 5.4 (minors), but now without the 100 velo. Turns 25-years old in September.
      Phillies need to move Paps to see if Giles can handle the closer’s role.
      But with the fluidity with relievers anymore, not sure he canl be the future closer for 2018 and beyond.

  9. If the Cubs are a comp for our re-build, then we are in year 1 of a 3 year process. The Cubs had top 5 picks 3 years in a row. BUT, it is worth noting that they also got lucky that a potentially generational talent was errantly skipped by the Astros and landed to them at #2. the Nats also got very lucky in back to back years with 2 elite talents – Harper and Strasberg. On the flip side, Arizona got very unlucky this year in that the draft was just good at the top. No clear elite talent.

    So, is the 3 year window is best case scenario? Well, it looks like we have 2 cornerstones at 3rd and SS. We also have a solid Middle rotation. The hope is that Randolph turns out to be a stud, but he is at least 3 years away if not 4. But let’s just say he turns out to be a very good hitting LF. That leaves you with the 2-hole, 3-hole and cleanup hitters. Hitting on guys like Hoskins or Kingery would be huge! The Cubs hitting on Rizzo really expedited things. Of course there is the Hamels deal. And we will have a ton of money in 2017/2018 to over pay for an Ace pitcher.

    But if you add it all up, it still feels like we are going to have a top 5 pick for the same 3 years it took the Cubs. And hopefully, we will get as lucky as they do with the talent in those drafts.

    1. viagain…actually Sox hit on Rizzo, then moved him. Between Pedroia and Betts, he may be the best positional prospect to hit the majors from their system.

    2. ONE difference is the amount of money they spent in latin market. We wont go over and outspend anyone for more than one prospect and we wont spend in cuba market. so it will take longer. Also with giles and Montgomery and there votes, it would be hard to get a good gm in here. Gm for the most part what free reign. which mont wont do. sensile old men will keep this team down and middleton from doing what he would to win. Imo just a bad situation. and it kills me as a Phillies fan.. That we have a ownership group set up like this one is as to not let a guy spend to get bette in minors and major league level.

    1. Yup – I had almost the exact same post yesterday. Yes, they can lose 110 games – easily. They might lose 115 if Hamels, Papelbon and Harang are traded as they should be – it would be hard for the team to make a run at the 1962 Mets, but that we are even mentioning that team says all you need to know about where this club stands. This is, potentially, an historically bad team.

      But Ruben still has a job and a lot of the people here are okay with Ruben being club president and picking the GM which is literally the most important decision the franchise will make over the next 10 years. Ruben has done nothing but show that is NOT qualified to make that decision.

      1. “Ruben has done nothing but show that is NOT qualified to make that decision.” no offense catch but that might be the most un-intelligent thing I’ve ever seen you post.

        it assumes you know all the facts involved with each and every decision this club has made during his tenure and sat behind the scenes with ownership and all the other parties involved discussing the direction of the franchise since 2008.

        I actually don’t believe RAJ should move to club president I believe he should stay as GM with Gillick as the buffer from ownership.

        If ownership and Dallas Green stay out of the decisions I believe they will be fine.

        You have some disdain for Amaro I get it but you don’t have all the facts. Its your opinion and you certainly have a right to that. But next level thinking requires you go beyond the rhetoric of SABR/Fantasy pubes and media pundits and talk to people who really know and understand how they work. How each and every club works for that matter as they all run differently.

        You also have this grass is greener mentality yet you have GM’s all over the league with egg on their faces but again you won’t call any of them out.

        That’s not to say there weren’t some glaring mistakes on the part of Amaro there definitely were but every GM has a few pair of those hanging in their closet.

        1. I am curious. I don’t know the facts. but dmar, it seems to me you believe that ruben didn’t make any of the moves that buried this team. There is a lot of talk about Montgomery telling him to resign players. which if true just shows to me how bad a gm ruben really is. if he believed the moves were bad he should have said not to do them. in other words he is a puppet, and what makes you think someone with no guts. is the best choice for gm.

          1. In a world according to Rocco by year define which moves beginning in the off season of 08 buried the Phillies…

            I’ll pick through them for you and tell you which ones he is completely accountable for.

            1. I think as germane is when did Ruben and anyone else involved realize that continuing to put out its aging lineup was not going to work? If you know, share with us when they first came to the realization that a re-build was in order.

              But as to the moves:
              1. Did ownership require that Cliff Lee be dealt within the same news cycle as the trade for Roy Halladay? Did anyone think to take the time to canvasse other possible offers? Had anybody scouted Aumont, Gillies and Ramirez seriously or was this a hasty (half-baked) decision?
              2. At what point did the Phils realize they would have a problem extending Jayson Werth? Did they consider trading him for value at that point?
              3. What kind of player did the Phils expect Ryan Howard to be as a 36-37 year old player? Did that thinking factor into the extension of his contract when it happened, for the length and dollar amount of the extension?
              4. In trading for Hunter Pence, did Amaro accidentally leave Domingo Santana on the list of potential PTBNL’s offered to Houston, as widely reported?
              5. Did the Phils recognize they were getting a very diminished return on Pence a year later when they traded him to San Francisco? If Werth’s leaving triggered the Pence acquisition, then what did Pence’s leaving trigger in terms of a right fielder and middle of the order bat in the line-up?
              6.Why trade Pence if the Phils weren’t rebuilding and why extend Utley and Ruiz if they were?
              7. Regarding A.J. Burnett, who decided to let him pitch all year in 2014 with a sports hernia? Does ownership see his leaving to accept $4M a year less in Pittsburgh as a rather unprecedented vote of no-confidence in Philadelphia ownershipmanagement?
              8. Who is monitoring Cliff Lee’s rehabilitation and did anyone consider telling him after he was shut down last year that he had no choice but to undergo surgery if he wanted his contract honored?

              Therte’s more but that’s enough.

        2. This is nonsense. This is like saying if a manager is bad at work it’s more his boss’s fault than his because he or she may have influenced his or her subordinate. As a GM, or any other kind of manager or leader in a company, you have to anticipate your boss’s perspectives , biases, and opinions, and work hard to influence him or her into believing in what you think is right.

          So back to RAJ, one of two things is true. 1 He made the majority or all of these bad decisions, and for doing so, should be fired. Or 2, he wanted to make other, better moves for the past 6 years but was so inconsequential in the ownership’s eyes, and so lacking the ability to influence his leadership to believe in his what would have been good decisions, that they continued to make bad decisions around him. For this, he should also be fired.

            1. The deals for pitching this off season? While I agree, on paper, it appears that Ruben made some good moves this off season in terms of the return for Byrd and Rollins in particular, but none of these pitchers have proven anything yet (nor should they have at this point), but to say that maybe the last 5 years of bad decisions should be erased by a couple of good moves this off season for pitchers that aren’t even in the majors? I disagree.

        3. I think the fact that everyone seems to be blaming someone different in the org. for the problems we’re having shows that none of us really have a clue where decisions are coming from. I’ve seen Gillick, Amaro, Montgomery, Wade, Sandberg, and Middleton all being blamed for the club’s misfortunes.

          That being said, Amaro should NOT be promoted because he has made a buffoon of himself in his comments to the media, which shows he can’t handle a figurehead position.

        4. Use of the double negative was not the best grammatical choice, but I stand by the statement that nothing Amaro has done has shown that he is entitled to a promotion to president and is capable of ably picking the next GM.

          I don’t know all of the facts involved with this team just as I don’t know the inner workings of any professional sports team. What I have to go on is his record and the trajectory of the team under his guidance and from that standpoint he’s been an abject, miserable failure and one of the last persons I want to choose the next GM and chart the recover course for the team. I have no personal animus towards him – it’s just has demonstrated that he completely sucks at his job; to the point where he is laughing stock in his sport and even in the sports community as a whole. And I’m not nitpicking – he’s absolutely run this team into the ground. It’s not a like he’s just made one or two bad decisions – he’s been as bad a steward of this organization as you could find so the last position I want to see him in is an even higher position of stewardship.

          The only hope is that Gillick, having incorrectly chosen Amaro to be his successor as GM thinks the better of things and does not hand pick Amaro again as his successor as team president.

          The Amaro and Wade apologists around here puzzle and astound me.

    2. frizerland they must be under 55 wins for my prediction to be good. That is what I told romus at beginning of season.

  10. Sorry for going sideways here, but can someone please identify the 8 players shown left to right at the banner on top of the site’s homepage? I know it includes Rollins, Utley, Brown…and I think that is Hamels in a photo that looks like its from the depression era. I’m just curious and would appreciate the help. For all the names, stats and bios, these guys are still mostly faceless to me. Thanks.

        1. TY. Post below confirms but says #5 is Pettibone and #6 is Franco, not Bourn. No idea who is right, but I appreciate the help.

            1. From the picture…it vaguely looks like a No. 27 jersey…which Franco wore in Reading, so I’m thinking he’s the guy.

  11. 5, 4 and 3 are probable, in my opinion. I have very little hope for the rest. Pap, of your #8 gets moved, I think for a real prospect, but not Howard. Revere goes for nothing, and Harang for something akin to the Fausto Hernandez return.

  12. …Just realized there are 9 players…as Burrell seems squeezed in the left corner

  13. TY. Going left to right…I have no idea who #5, #6 and #8 are. Assuming #4 is depression era Hamels

      1. plus burrell far left.

        I suggested in the Nola thread replacing Pettibone’s image with Nola.

  14. csnphilly reporting Phillies interested in Andy McPhail possibly as future President of the club

  15. I was wondering did anyone hear the announcer on major league baseball. Ripping how ugly Franco was. I think it was Pedro Martinez, how he didn’t get fired is unreal. he said he has a face only a mother would love. the guy has bad acne. how can you rip him.

    1. rocco….do you think that is the reason the Yankees did not want to give him that extra $5000 to sign him in 2010?
      Playing in the Big Apple players have to have the ‘look’, you know. 😉

    2. LOL I did not hear that but if it was Pedro I have to guess that he knows Maikel and cares for Maikel. They are both part of the DR family.

  16. How long is the list of teams that want Hamels, will trade something worthwhile for Hamels and who Hamels will go to (not Houston or Toronto supposedly)?

    1. I’m sure that list is substantial even if not realistic.

      First Place Teams
      Cardinals (we know are who he wants to be dealt to)
      Dodgers
      Mets
      Yankees
      Royals
      Astros

      Second Place Teams
      Nats
      Pirates
      Giants
      Rays
      Twins
      Rangers

      Those within 3 Games
      Blue Jays
      Orioles
      Tigers
      Angels
      Braves

      Those Within 6 Games
      Padres
      Cubs

      7 Or more Games out
      Red Sox
      Indians
      White Sox
      Mariners
      Athletics
      Marlins
      Reds
      Brewers
      Diamond Backs
      Rockies

  17. Re:

    Utley – Guy should either be benched or down to the 8 spot. No sense in putting him in the 3 spot.

    Sandberg – Horrible manager as evidenced by his decision to keep Utley at 3, not promote Galvis up the lineup sooner, handling of Giles, and the way he is handling Hamels.

    I am talking about keeping him in at 99 pitches a few weeks ago. He should know that he has to protect the prime trade asset.

  18. I Wonder how much longer they can go with Utley in three hole? they cant let him get 500 at bats. What is sandberg trying to prove by letting him bat third? I love Utley but he is not producing and like others he should not be batting third. Start playing Herrera there and see how he handles it. love to see what kind of infielder he will be.

    1. Same with Paps finishing games. There was no business for him to be in that game yesterday, then he starts the next and final inning.
      Does he get a ‘finish’ for the loss?
      Seems they are playing games not to win so much as to ensure players have every opportunity to make their incentive.
      Which, in the long-run, does hurt the future standing of the club’s objectives.

      1. Maybe its just me. but there seems to be no direction on this team and this fo. All I hear is we have a plan. Then is your plan to make Utley. paps get there extra year pay. when that money could be spent on the latin or Cuban market , for a younger talent.?? what Is your plan to never know if ruf can play everyday at first? What Is the reason pap is closing game when you need to find out if giles is the answer? What is your plan when you have Hoskins sitting in low a. at 23 yrs old. cant we find out if this kid can hit better pitching, he is a college player.

        1. Well I bet Sandberg and RAJ know they are just lame ducks right now. They won’t be here next year so they really have no reason to help the long term health of the franchise.

        2. Papelbon is getting the job done as the closer so if the Phillies just stop using him in the 9th inning, the players union would file a grievance and likely win. Utley is another matter. He’s stinking it up so he could be benched or moved down in the order, no doubt.

          1. excuse me but guru your telling me if we want to see what giles can do as a closer. The team wouldn’t be able to. that is bull pure and simple. The players are payed to play not tell the team what they want, you do whats best for the team.

  19. In any season since Hamels became a starter in 2006, there may have been 10 or more better starters. If, however, you look at the overall careers of all active pitchers, I would argue that Hamels is a Top 5.

    Just to cite examples of what I mean, when Lincecum was at the top of his game, he was better than Hamels. I also doubt that Hamels will win two CYs. Yet, when all is said and done, Hamels is better.

    If Verlander does not bounce back, same argument.

    Harvey and Fernandez, when healthy and at their best, are better than Hamels, but they are question marks, and they have been outstanding for only a short period of time. Although I might change my opinion in a few years, today I rate Hamels’ career ahead of these two.

    I think Bumgarner is a product of his home park. While he is very good, his career does not measure up to Hamels’.

    Same with Lester.

    Scherzer is a better pitcher than Hamels at the moment, but he’s only a few months younger than Hamels, and Scherzer’s career numbers fall a little short. This is a close case.

    Sale, Kluber and Sonny Gray need more time before their careers compare with Hamels’

    The only active pitchers with clearly better careers than Hamels are Kershaw and Felix; probably Wainwright, too, and maybe Price.

  20. They are showing every intention of continuing to run him out there, getting his 500 ABs and going through this whole sad scenario next year. I do not understand, and I love Utley. The Howard contract is one thing. They can’t move him and the $ is already a sunk cost, so they figure they might as well run him out there. But Utley’s $15Million is not sunk yet. I really don’t care how they waste their money, but this is incredible.

    1. I would like to change the conversation topic and mention that the Mets just DFA’d Dillion Gee who could be a placeholder until the young pitchers arrive. The Mets just want to unload him and he can be acquired for little and we have first crack at him. His salary could be a problem though at $5 million.

      1. Were shopping in the bargain basement already.The Phillies can keep sending the kids out there at 500G’s to get pounded around.It’s like sending a club fighter into the ring to face Ali in his prime.Dillion Gee’s not going to change our fortunes around.
        Is this entertainment?

        1. Who else do you suggest to start after the trades? Please don’t say Nola or Elfin as they are not quite ready. This is a stopgap move to allow our young pitchers to get more experience.

      1. Who’s leads the phillies in walks and is 2nd in rbi’s Ultey. He’s not hitting now he done so much for the Phillies he deserves every he gets. I think he will hit this team has spent a lot of money on players that aren’t have of what Ultey is. The Phillies don’t care about this yr they know this team is only going to get worse. Next yr will be different Dugan will be here maybe Nola , Crawford, Quinn .

        1. You are missing the point. 500 PA’s locks in Utley at $15 million for next year. He does not deserve it. Utley does not deserve this year’s salary.

          His career is over. It is time to move on.

          1. Really we are concerned with $15 million to a wall of fame player that always took less when he could have got more.

            I’m mean to each their own but I’m not concerned. This team isn’t going anywhere next year either so if Chase is around for another year he certainly isn’t blocking anyone.

            I think its a generational problem. My guess is you are pretty young David. So quick to dispose of a guy like Chase speaks volumes about where we are as a society. And that’s not meant to be a knock or a put down just an observation that maybe you can’t see the value beyond the batting average.

            My kids are the same way. Everything is disposable. New cell every other year hell my one son thinks he should get a pension after only a year and half on the job and believe me I tell him he is out of his mind and doesn’t have any clue what it means to pay his dues.

            I mean defensively have you see some of the plays that he’s made?

            And to those that think Herrea is the answer you basically seen what you can expect him to be. He is not good enough in CF as an everyday player.He would be decent enough at 2B if you have the team built up around him I suppose.

            Again Dubi is worth the pick-up and the roster spot this season but he is no significant piece beyond this season.

            1. I have no idea where you’re going with this and I fail to see the relevance of your son’s attitude towards his pension. The only thing being ‘quick’ to dispose of Chase says is that, when you have literally the WORST everyday player by fWAR in the majors, you probably shouldn’t play him anymore.

              I’d be willing to give Chase until a week or two before the trade deadline to turn it around. If he hasn’t by then, you park him on the bench and part ways in the off season. Hernandez may never amount to anything, but there’s really no reason for Chase to be playing over the guy that leads the team in OBP.

  21. “Who’s going to last in Philly longer, Giles or …Bowa? My first thought when I saw the clip was, “Really? They’re going to get in the face of the guy who actually has a future in Philadelphia?”

    Just had some deja vu. Weird. Anyway, I’m sure the Cardinals would take Giles.

    1. LOL Bowa and Ryne have more baseball knowledge in their stool than giles has in his whole body so regardless who is here longer he deserved to be ripped as he was.

      Just as David Wright did to Noah Syndergaard during spring training. Most every kid coming up needs to learn how to become a pro. It’s all part of the maturation process.

  22. So the FBI is investigating the Cardinals for hacking the Astros computer system and Boston is 5 games back from the Phillies.

    The first story is bizarre.

    The second is hilarious. Boston may be in worse shape than Philly with all of those high-priced contracts. Exactly why you do not sign guy too soon into a rebuild.

    1. David, I thought I read an article from David Murphy that the Phillies spent a lot of money on a new computer program to help the scouts with sabremetric tools, I am not sure if it was used in this years draft but could have been as there were some draft picks that seemed to come out of nowhere.

    2. David, David , David,,,,shirley you gest!
      The AL East has four teams over .500, probably the best division right now in baseball, and the NL East has two….Mets and Nats.
      The Sox just happen to be in a tough division.

    3. Somewhere Ruben is sitting thinking “Ah ha, I knew it was smart not to have any computers, nobody can hack us”……

    1. I dropped this down, DMAR, thinking you hadn’t seen it.

      (begin quote) In a world according to Rocco by year define which moves beginning in the off season of 08 buried the Phillies…

      I’ll pick through them for you and tell you which ones he is completely accountable for.
      Reply
      fighterflea
      June 16, 2015 at 1:11 AM

      I think as germane is when did Ruben and anyone else involved realize that continuing to put out its aging lineup was not going to work? If you know, share with us when they first came to the realization that a re-build was in order.

      But as to the moves:
      1. Did ownership require that Cliff Lee be dealt within the same news cycle as the trade for Roy Halladay? Did anyone think to take the time to canvasse other possible offers? Had anybody scouted Aumont, Gillies and Ramirez seriously or was this a hasty (half-baked) decision?
      2. At what point did the Phils realize they would have a problem extending Jayson Werth? Did they consider trading him for value at that point?
      3. What kind of player did the Phils expect Ryan Howard to be as a 36-37 year old player? Did that thinking factor into the extension of his contract when it happened, for the length and dollar amount of the extension?
      4. In trading for Hunter Pence, did Amaro accidentally leave Domingo Santana on the list of potential PTBNL’s offered to Houston, as widely reported?
      5. Did the Phils recognize they were getting a very diminished return on Pence a year later when they traded him to San Francisco? If Werth’s leaving triggered the Pence acquisition, then what did Pence’s leaving trigger in terms of a right fielder and middle of the order bat in the line-up?
      6.Why trade Pence if the Phils weren’t rebuilding and why extend Utley and Ruiz if they were?
      7. Regarding A.J. Burnett, who decided to let him pitch all year in 2014 with a sports hernia? Does ownership see his leaving to accept $4M a year less in Pittsburgh as a rather unprecedented vote of no-confidence in Philadelphia ownership/management?
      8. Who is monitoring Cliff Lee’s rehabilitation and did anyone consider telling him after he was shut down last year that he had no choice but to undergo surgery if he wanted his contract honored?

      There’s more but that’s enough. (end quote)

      1. You think the Phillies had the power to compel Cliff Lee to have surgery in exchange for honoring his contract? Wrong.

        And I’d like some sources on the wide reporting that Amaro accidentally left Domingo Santana on the PTBNL list.

        1. Actually you can’t force a player to have surgery see Tanaka and the Yankees as an example. The Yankees were none to happy he decided to rehab instead.

          They will get some starts out of him this year but its only a matter of time before that ligament goes.

        2. “In spring training, a Phillies official admitted that Santana wasn’t actually supposed to be on the list that was given to the Astros to pick from to satisfy the final piece on Aug. 15, 2011.”

          Houston Chronicle piece, August 2, 2014. Amaro denied vthe charge.

          1. Easily one of the worst offenses of the Amaro era. Just giving away a prospect on a paperwork error is ridiculous.

          2. so it was in one source and the Phillies denied the report.. Not sure that’s exactly a smoking gun

            1. It was widely picked up. How many sources would you expect? I asked DMAR for reaction since he seemed intent on disabusing roccom of various points of criticism of Amaro. If Santana flamed out, it would no longer matter here.

            2. being “picked up” but various social media sites and blogs doesn’t make the initial report true or false. My expectation is for some other reputable news outlet to either confirm or deny the report before I accept it as true.

            3. “being “picked up” but various social media sites and blogs doesn’t make the initial report true or false. My expectation is for some other reputable news outlet to either confirm or deny the report before I accept it as true.”

              I guess like you I don’t really know the answer. I was hoping DMAR would shed light on this and some other things, since he offered to do so. Guess he lost interest in that.

            4. I would love to know the answer but you’ve provided nothing to show one exists. A report in the Houston paper quotes an anonymous source that the Phillies deny and a number of other outlets pick up that report and repeat it.

              Repeating something over and over doesn’t make it true, it just makes it more widely distributed. you obviously choose to believe it, I have my doubts..

  23. I saw today that Brandon workman will undergo tommy john surgery. They say he will be out this year and most likely next. what I found interesting, is that they are counting it as major league time so when he comes back he will be closer to fa. I am wondering is that what they do with guys in minors. where I believe workman was. after being sent down.

    1. rocco…you and Brandon Workman…how many years has it been since you have been complaining about the Phillies not signing him after the 2007 draft?
      Actually you can’t blame Ruben on that one. I think Pat G. was the man then, Ruben was his assistant.

    1. Now it makes me wonder that Hoskins may be going to Reading.
      Wouldn’t they have sent all three together to Clearwater?

      1. Hoskins will likely go to Clearwater too. McGuinness isn’t producing in AAA so the likely replacement is Brock Stassi, giving Art Charles every day playing time in Reading. At Clearwater you have Willians Astudillo handling 1B – poorly. He’s a future DH. I look for Hoskins to move up to A+ and when Zach Green comes off the DL he should move back to play 3B instead of Walding.

    1. I’m not a fan of Sandberg as manager but in that situation, Giles was way over the top in his reaction on the field and it needed to be addressed. My problem is that it should have been addressed in the clubhouse and not in the dugout.

  24. 19 to 3 can we well it can and will get worse.Brown though drops the ball and throws without a care in the world.

  25. Tim what game would rather watch last nights Phillies game or the dsl game. they both were exciting. its hard for me to pick. I record both.

    1. Hmm I started watching I THOUGHT, Willams was throwing bp which he was doing a fine job of.when I realize baltimore was not going to stop .I switched to Little house on the Prairie reruns by that time I was numb . I can’t wait until the hockey draft . The next Brown bends over and drops the ball and throws it in like he doesn’t care I’d send him ball girl training .

  26. What happened last night was just embarrasing. McClure is clearly in over his head and should be fired immediately, and Sandberg is losing or has lost the clubhouse, and appears lost. Ordinarily, I’d say who cares who is managing this team since they are going to finish last, which at this point isn’t a bad thing, but I think they need to think about the impact of this manager and coaching staff on the young guys – Franco, Giles, DeFratus, Herrerra, Galvis, and at some point probably Nola.

    As for Chase Utley and his situation, there is no way the Phils can bench him or do something to take his at bats away. Considering where this franchise is at right now, the most aggressive thing they can do with him is bat him 7th or 8th but still play him almost every day. He has earned the right to go out there and bat .180 if that’s what happens – if they were contending it would be a different story and if he was blocking a prospect, it would be a different story.

      1. David….we are probably only talking about 3 more months or less. Not sure they will try to let Chase meet his incentives ilo of helping the club.

        1. To this point he has appeared in 61 of 66 games. You don’t wait until he hits 470 PA’s and say ‘stop’.

          You do it before the end of the month and give Herrera that chance at 2B.

          The PA will definitely complain if you stop at 470 PA’s but if you do it now nobody will bat an eye.

          At 470 PA’s the first question is why did you wait until now to bench him?

          In June, you say that we need to make a change based on his hitting performance and want to give Herrera a chance at his natural position.

          1. You do make a good point.
            He is now at 232 PAs.
            And his production is below par.
            It is a tricky handling situation.
            He is healthy, so a 15-day DL is probably not going to looked at with a smile fro all concerned.
            It comes down to how loyal the Phillies want to be.
            Same with Paps and game ‘finishes’
            Seems the Phillies ….Ruben and Ryne… are more interested in ensuring their veterans meet their incentive objectives and insist it is in the interest of the team’s better fortune on the field.
            I guess next season it will be with Chooch.

  27. David you were making sense, until you put that outfield up. all three don’t belong in majors. But you were on a short roll good job.

    1. You could make the argument that opening a spot for the 4th OF is better than rolling Chase out there on a daily basis. As much as you may not like that combination it is a much better lineup than having Chase out there on a daily basis.

    2. You cannot let your mind cloud your judgement with regard to players.

      Utley is on track for 570 plate appearances thus earning his 2016 option at $15 million.

      With a .180 average you can easily replace him by moving Herrera back to 2B and finding a replacement OF.

      The 4th OF is playing and hitting much better than Chase in the overall picture.

      1. who as more rbi’s , more walks . Ultey has more rbi’s more hr and more walks . Herrera is a nice young player , if the phillies thought he’s the long term answer at 2nd they would have never drafted Kingsley . They could have Cano at 2nd and they still would be in last place.my friends still go to the games why because there son’s want to watch Ultey not Herrera, Not Herandez, Ultey because he plays the game the right way. He’s been the face of the Phillies for some time now . How much money you do you think the owners have made on him Billions. The phillies know want they have in Ultey a future HOF who will still be here after his career as a coach. You think kids come to Herrera, D Brown, Galvis no. I think Ultey not done I think he will turn it around. Plus tbere’s:nothing wrong with his defense.Sandberg said everyone is going to have a chance at the outfield there’s no starters. Herrera will get chance’s in the outfield . This season done that’s why it doesn’t matter who right or wrong .

          1. The other day he made a leaping catch and the season is far from over . Herrera was on his to over a 100 wiff’s he was batting out of the 7 hole. The phillies drafted him for the outfield not for 2nd. What if Herrera goes under 200 then what?

        1. Utley is a future Phillies Wall of Famer. But Cooperstown? He’s going to have to pay his way in like the rest of us. Not enough years of sustained excellence.

          1. Career WAR 61.
            Only Phillies, who earned it as Phillies, with a higher WAR…are in HoF.
            Carlton, Roberts, Schmidt and Ashburn.

  28. It might seem harsh to blame Sandberg when the team he has been given is so awful, but last night was just the kicker. He has done a really poor job, and letting Frenchy stay out there was just the last straw. If the bullpen phone is broken, run the bleep down to the pen and get somebody up. This in, no way, lets Management/Ownership or RAJ off the hook. They should all go, but Ryno is offering zero from the dugout. Rebuilding is painful, sure, and it is 3 years too late, but this is a total embarrament.

  29. I think playing Chase and showing him the respect he deserves and has earned is more important than getting a 4th OF, or Herrera, at bats in the big leagues.

    1. ….and this is why the team is in the state that it is in.

      Give him a cushy job in the front office but there is no justifiable reason for him to earn $15 million for a sub-.200 season.

      It does more to embarrass Chase and the franchise than it does to show him respect.

      Respect is knowing when to hang it up.

  30. Buddy so you want to see him get 15million next year for what he done years ago. Makes no sense to me he was great got payed. and was admired and still is, but its the end and he doesn’t deserve to play, when he cant hit over 200.

    1. Turns out Papelbon took the phone off the hook because he did not want to go in.

      I would be mad but I think the coaches lost the clubhouse and the team needs to fire the whole lot and bring in some temp coaches until the end of the season.

      1. I heard on wip paps order pizzas from city pizza and didn’t want to go in, the pizza were going to get cold.

  31. Bring coaches in for the worst team in baseball .the owners don’t care about this season if they did they would have spent money or sold the team.

      1. David so boston screw up That’s why its important to have good scouts and farm directiors and a gm who knows what he is doing. Not a bad gm like ruben. I Don’t know who okayed mag. but that was a joke. 44 million down to 12? what was that story. you seem to think what the Phillies are doing in not being aggressive in Cuban market is okay for a big market team. And you failed to mention that boston screwed up with big signings before and unloaded them and got two titles if I am not mistaken. and now have a good farm system with there spending. and will get some pitchers this season or in the off season. That along with there young talent will help them get back to the top. meanwhile we relie on two prospects to get us back. Two top 100 in whole organization, after being bad now for 4 years. nice job of scouting in international market and Cuban market. Stop making excuses for them. its getting really bad.

  32. Some money l ‘ d be happy with 1 Cuban player and a good pitcher. I’d rather see Amonte , Joey Rodriguez , Gonzalez then Williams etc .

  33. Don’t know if this is the right place to put this, but the interview with JA referenced the analytics that were used in the past draft. Does anyone have any ideas of any specific moves or decisions that those analytics might have caused in terms of players who were or weren’t selected…. or is that just a bad question?

    1. Some one explain to me how analytics is used in evaluating HS players and to some degree college players?
      Seems it is gets more useful after a player goes beyond the SSS requirement in professional baseball, which normally starts after a season or maybe a little more in A ball..

    2. It is mostly college.

      Analytics for HS is weak no matter how you crunch the numbers. The quality of pitching a kid faces in high school is nothing like what he will face in Rookie ball so it is difficult to draw conclusions.

      Where you can delve into details is places like the Cape Cod League and other summer camps where you can see guys compete against like talented players.

      At that point, analytically, you can begin to draw some rudimentary conclusions but in the end it comes down to eyeballs on a player.

      1. Yes…that would seem to be the case. More difficult for HS players. Projections based on scouting seems to be the key.

  34. There are currently two Phillies players with positive offensive fWAR, according to Fangraphs: Franco, and Chad Billingsley. FWIW

  35. As I originally anticipated, the Quinn injury is much worse than initially reported. There’s no way a guy strains muscles/ligaments in that way and is back in a week – I have no idea why they reported that. He’s supposed to be out 6-8 week, thereby depriving him of yet further developmental time. The initial reports, however, suggest he can make a full recovery, which is the most important thing. But the guy cannot find a way to play more than about 80 games in a season. That he has continued to progress, and now excel, even while being promoted in a reasonably aggressive manner, speaks to his drive and talent. Hopefully, he can return to the AFL and perhaps play in a winter league and start next year in AAA with J.P. Crawford.

    Now for the real question – will the major league team lose 115 games? I think it’s quite possible, especially since I expect them to find a team to take Howard (that’s the real reason Ruf is in AAA playing first – or so I hope), Papelbon and Hamels are sure to go and Harang will go one way or another. The team that will be left will be among the worst we’ve ever seen – and I think it’s unquestionably the worst – and certainly the most boring – team I’ve ever followed on a daily basis and trust me, as a fan of the late 70s Mets (very, very bad teams – give this team a run for their money in the “badness” race) and the late 90s Phillies, I’ve seen my share of really crappy baseball.

    1. catch…last week I thought it was unusual for a 7-day DL stay, since Roman Quinn had to be helped off the field. He seems snake-bitten at this time of his career.
      Also, can he play again in the AFL? I thought players get one shot at it. He played there last fall.

    2. Wow I said there were this bad. before we played the opener. And most thought they could at least win 75 to 80. I see a lot of people on here who know the sport. I like to know what they saw, what made them think that this team was a 500 team?. The opening day roster had imo 5 bad fielders. Asche. Howard, revere. Herrera who never played the position, and a combination of francore, ruf, and possibly brown. ruiz isn’t the same player defensively. Starting pitching. hamels and all question marks, harang has been better than I thought, but does anyone really think Williams and Buchanan are big league pitchers? Now the offense, we all know that galvis cant hit, asche wasn’t a sure thing hitting, the outfield offensive has no power and bad obp. Even if chase hit, who did people think would be able to drive in runs beside say chase and howard. This is why imo even with the bad contracts ruben has not put a team on the field that can compete. He should be fired yesterday. Gm have fielded better teams with less revenue to spend. He over estimate this team so bad, and now, how can we trust him or the people who advise him in rebuilding? Going into the season the only things I thought were good was the bullpen and hamels and now the bullpen isn’t as good with de fraus going in the toilet. What good is a great bullpen with bad starters and no offense.

      1. I’m not sure those predictions of 75-80 wins was anything more than anecdotal evidence Roccom. I don’t know of a single individual in my circles who predicted the 2015 team to be anything short of a complete debacle. I had them as a bottom three team all along with a distinct possibility of having the top pick overall in the 2016 draft. For a rebuilding team, this is actually a good thing. Meandering in mediocrity year after year could result in a lost decade in a blink of an eye.

        As far as De Fratus is concerned, he’s absolutely fine in spite of his stats. His problem is that he works for a manager who misuses and abuses him. I’d go into detail, but Bill Baer recently wrote a nice article on the same topic.

        http://crashburnalley.com/2015/06/19/dear-ryne-sandberg-please-stop-abusing-justin-de-fratus/

        My loathing of RAJ is well documented, but Sandberg is a downright field captain right now. He needs to go with as high a sense of urgency as his dimwitted partner of a GM. There are too many examples of Sandberg’s ineptitude to count but I will point to one recent example which I would consider egregious. In Hamels’ June 8th start at Cincinnati, the Phillies came to bat in the top of the 6th of a 3-3 game. They managed to load the bases with only one out and Hamels spot in the order due up. Hamels, thru 5 innings of work, had already thrown 99 pitches. I would ask, is there any manager on the face of the earth who would allow his SP to bat in that situation? Well yes, there is one. Sandberg. Say what you will about the benefits of losing in a season where draft slot is more important than wins, and say what you will about protecting the most significant asset the big club has in its possession (Hamel’s left arm), from solely a game management and strategy standpoint, it was downright idiotic to allow Hamels to bat in that situation.

        The result you ask? Hamels struck out and Revere grounded out to end the inning in a 3-3 tie. Hamels comes out to pitch the 6th, gives up a 2-run hr, and ends up throwing 120 pitches.

        1. I was the only one that thought they would be better than this so in that respect I was wrong.

          Nobody could have predicted the ineptitude of Sandberg. This guy has a HOF pedigree and came up through the MILB ranks.

          He has shown nothing to indicate a knowledge greater than an average fan.

          He continues to run Utley out there in the 2 or 3 spot. At one point he had 3 sub-Mendoza hitters in the heart of his lineup.

          Remember when Galvis was the best hitter in the 8 spot?

          There is some talent on the roster but from Utley to Galvis to Hamels to DeFratus he is in over his head.

          ….or he does not care and that should scare people.

      1. rocco…the best thing for the Phillies…baseball does not have a lottery system for drafting the top pick.

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