Report: Phillies Move Rollins, Bastardo in Separate Deals

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So, while travelling north to PA on Interstate 95, my text and Twitter exploded.  First, with news of a ¨completed¨ trade of Jimmy Rollins to the Los Angeles Dodgers and then with another trade where Antonio Bastardo was reportedly sent to the Pittsburgh Pirates.

In the Bastardo deal, the Phillies will receive Joely Rodriguez, a 6’1, 200 lb, left-handed pitcher who started in 2/3 of his 30 appearances for the Double-A Altoona Curve, and posted a 4.84 ERA.  He participated in the Arizona Fall League as a member of the Scottsdale Scorpions, which included seven Phillies’ players as well as Lehigh Valley pitching coach Ray Burris.  Rodriguez rebounded from a difficjult regular season to post a 3-0 record in 7 starts against the higher level competition of the AFL.  He posted a 2.38 ERA, struck out 22, and walked 6 in 22.2 innings.

Although the Rollins trade ¨broke”first, the players involved haven’t been announced.  There has been speculation that the Phillies will receive a pair of minor league pitching prospects, that some money will change hands (this requires approval by the commissioner), and that a third team is involved (the Marlins?) and that player(s) from that trade are involved.

So until we learn more, here’s a place to talk about these moves.

357 thoughts on “Report: Phillies Move Rollins, Bastardo in Separate Deals”

    1. Still think he may comp close to a Kendrick when he gets to the majors.
      His scouting reports are eerily similar to Kendricks with the hard sinking low-90s FB, fringy CurBa, but a decent ChUp
      Their size, and also their pedigree are virtually identical…both former HS QBs with scholarships that awaited them to D1 schools
      That said, Kendrick was never in any BA top 100 listing, as Lee is, so I am hopeful he will develop more then KK did.

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  2. Zach Lee would be nice only in the sense that he was ranked in their top 10 but a closer look at his peripherals and you’ll see there is nothing special with him to this point. His k/9 is average if not low and his WHIP is really high.

    Stuff wise he has a low 90’s FB. Unless there is some dramatic change in his arsenal we already have plenty of Zach Lee’s in our system.

    But I digress we are not even sure he is one of the players in the package

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    1. Another Dodgers former first round pick doesn’t really excite me, but I guess we’ll take what we can get. I was really hoping for Heaney once the rumors started flying last night of a third team, etc., but that was obviously never going to happen.

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  3. A few more hours and will see who Ruben selects in the Rule 5…if anyone.
    I hoping for DeShields, but he lately has been enamored with arms it seems.
    For sure, if it is Deshields, he will not have to worry about Ryno complaining about his 25th and prefer to keep a Mini Mart vs an Inciarte.

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  4. Well its a sad day. Yes Rollins maybe gone in a year or two anyway, but good luck with anyone coming in in the next two decades and ever getting close to what he did this year, yet alone over 15 years.

    I think the biggest mistake this franchise has made to date is blowing up this team just to get prospects. We are a top market team (or should I say were) but we think like a bottom market team. At least some bottom market teams like the Marlins know how to remake themselves. I’m afraid we are going into no mans land for several years, maybe decades.

    We finally became a top market team, who when they hit a bad patch adds veterans, while developing youth. Unfortunately after reaching the pinnacle this organization is now digging a hole and crawling in it. After suffering with them through the sixties and 70’s. Than to hit another crash from 1984 to 2005 (with an unexpected blip in 93), I think we are heading back to historical Phillies land.

    Well on the bright side it will be good for those who love to speculate about prospects for the next several years 😉 See you in Philly (if the organization still exists) in the 2020’s or 30’s. I’ll be getting my baseball in Reading and Allentown.

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    1. How in any way shape or form would this team be better off holding onto these guys? Yeah, if they decided to spend $200 million on payroll they could probably contend next year but at this point other than Hamels all of these guys are complementary players on good teams, not a core to build around.

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      1. What indication do you have that the Phillies are good at finding and developing minor league talent, I’m not against trading players. I’m against throwing in the towel for the next several year in hopes that a Biddle type player or worse ever makes it to the majors. Again, we are thinking like the Marlins and not the Red Sox

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        1. The Red Sox have “retooled” twice since the last time the Phillies made the playoffs.

          Their change in organizational philosophy is what encourages me. Their last two drafts encourage me.

          He got two top 10 prospects for Rollins, that’s way better than I thought he could ever do.

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          1. That’s kind of our point. The Red Sox have won three times in roughly ten years because they do what makes sense rather than “rebuilding” or being “all in”. That’s what bad organizations do is stop making smart moves and start making moves based on some philosophy.

            I didn’t think he could get that for Rollins either, though.

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            1. Agree with you in that the 2004 and 2007 Boston teams were well last constructed. The 2013 Red Sox were like the 1993 Phillies but they won but not well constructed. There was a lot of luck with that team winning the WS.

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        2. You’re saying this after the Red Sox wouldn’t give up any of their top 5 prospects for Cole Hamels and the Marlins traded their top prospect and several others for Dee Gordan?

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    2. You are being short sighted IMO Rem just the same as those that bashed RAJ for trying to stay in the window with these guys in 10-11-12.

      What’s going on today is new its fresh possibly not better but its so obvious its the direction that needs to be taken. If you are an optimistic fan such as myself you say Ok Monte is out of the picture and Gillick is over seeing the process. You have a new scouting director out of an organization that has done a really good job over the last several years finding young talent and you move on from that point.

      You don’t wallow in the past and say just because they had a bad stretch with prospects they will always be bad at evaluating prospects.

      That’s just cowardly. Be bold be brave embrace what could be! being a fan of the Phillies doesn’t mean you have to be miserable.

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    3. RemHoward:
      ‘We are a top market team (or should I say were) but we think like a bottom market team’…there in lies your answer.

      The Yankees can hold onto a Jeter, Posada and Rivera and honor them as they retire from distinguished careers….they also can fortify their farm systems with replacement personnel, since they will spend in the only other option available for prospect acquisition that money can be buy for value….the international market…..they spent approx. $14M for 10 of the top 30 international prospects last year and incurred the penalty.
      Teams are looking for that advantage more so then what the Rule 4 provides.
      And the MLB FA markets has evolved into older 30 plus year old one/two year mercenaries like the Byrds, Burnetts of the world, unless you want top forfeit a draft pick for a QO guy.

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    4. I’ve been pretty consistent in arguing against the point of view that you blow the team up. And I’m one of Rollins’ biggest fans. But at this point, with just one year remaining on his contract, if you have a chance to trade him for a decent prospect you have to do it. We’ll see what the return is, but if it’s Lee plus a lesser prospect, that’s a decent return.

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      1. Got ya, and I agree. Its just a sad day because not only do you say good by to what started a great run but, you are also blowing up the team. With prospects, most times that’s all they ever are, most don’t ever get more than a cup of coffee

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    5. Rem, that may have been true before the new CBA in MLB which leveled the field and penalized the big spenders. The Phillies got caught in between and the Yankees have the same issues.

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      1. This is true. The new CBA penalizes the big market clubs and helps the smaller market clubs.

        There is a focus now on building from within and if free agency shows us anything it is that dipping into that pool is very, very expensive.

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      2. You might be right. I just see them and the Red Sox packing the stadium. I’m never going to be a GM…I’m a Phan and as a Phan I’d rather add proven talent than guys who most likely will never do much in the majors.

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  5. Remember when the Phillies selected Inciarte and everyone was up in arms? He was returned to the Dbacks and then he posted 3.7 bWAR in 2014? Good times.

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    1. What is your point? He didn’t sniff the big leagues till last year so he obviously wasn’t ready at that time and therefore was returned after the D-backs refued to trade him.

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      1. It was Inciarte vs Mini-mart if I remember correctly.
        Maybe I am wrong.
        But how did that work out for the Phillies?

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        2. C’mon Romus please tell me you are not pinning the failure of the past few years on a guy like Inciarte. He has no big league future beyond a 4th or 5th OF. My opinion of course and I am wrong plenty

          Just ask my wife

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          1. DMAR……no not at all….but with him there is no need for Revere, and perhaps we flip or do not flip, Vanimal and May for other parts that could be useful….just a domino effect type of thing.

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            1. Except the Revere trade and Inciarte draft was on the same day. And Inciarte coming off of A-ball was not going to be your starting center fielder.

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        3. With the state of the Phillies ever young player counts. While Inciarte is no star, he can help a team win games. He has good speed, can steal bases, is a good defender, and his bat is passable.

          He may only be a 4th outfielder or possible platoon guy, but I wish he was still around. He could easily come in for a guy like Brown or possibly Asche in LF late in the game. His absence isn’t detrimental to the team, but there is no doubt he would provide us more value than mini-mart did.

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      2. Yes, everyone bashes the Phillies for not having enough young players, but here was one that they had and everyone bashed them at the time. Goes to show the fickle nature of these fans.

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  6. It appears that besides Zach Lee, the Phils are either getting the Reliever from the Marlins, I think his name is Hatcher, or one of the Pitchers from the Padres deal, Elfin or Weilend, and that is the hold up. I so much wish that Andrew Friedman was the Phils GM!

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    2. Hatcher is 29…I’m not sure he would be an arm we’d want back.

      If we get back Eflin and Lee for Rollins I’d be happy with that. Both project to be mid-back end starters. Wieland is also a starter who posted good numbers in the minors last season, but struggled in limited time in the majors.

      Eflin and Wieland were the Padres # 10 and 17 prospects respectively.

      With Rollins and Bastardo gone, I could see Byrd being the next. Hamels and Howard could be moved, but I’m not sure if they are fully committed to moving Hamels. We all know Howard is going to be tough to move and he could be back at least for the first half of the season. Utley and Ruiz could be moved too. I think they really want Utley to stick around and show some of the young guys how to go about the game, but Ruiz could certainly be had.

      I’m just glad to see they are finally making efforts to rebuild. A couple moves so far and I think they have at least 1 or 2 moves left. I am also ready for the draft today, hoping we get an intriguing player.

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    3. What is your source? Lee and Elfin would be good return for JRoll. Lee and Weiland would be so-so. Hatcher (a cost controlled ML reliever) makes no sense.

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  7. I’m kind of distressed about the return in the Bastardo trade. They traded an established major league full inning high K-rate lefty for a AA low K-rate ground ball pitcher whom my friends who are Pirates fans say has the outside chance to be a LOOGY.

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    1. Why? Do you think they would’ve gotten more for him? Look at the going rate of relievers. This was a decent return.

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    2. Funny how we seem to view a guy like Bastardo differently. I specifically remember the Mets series last season when we could have swept them or maybe taken 2 of 4.

      Ryne brings him in to get a lefty out. Bastard walks him on 4-5 pitches. Then Ryne leaves him in to face Young who in turn blasts the next one out of the park to walk off the game.

      Maybe perception isn’t reality but it always seemed Ryne or Charlie would bring him in to get a lefty out and Antonio would walk him.

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    3. Bastardo is a good reliever, but is too inconsistent to net a high prospect like Boston got for Miller last year.

      Bastardo is pretty much going to dominate and strike out some guys or he will struggle with control and force the manager to bring in someone else. Bastardo is valuable to a contending team, but lacks the consistency to solidify himself as a top reliever.

      I like getting Rodriguez. A good sinking fastball plays well at the bank. If he can’t stick in the rotation he could be moved to the pen. Regardless he is young and cost controlled and has a chance to contribute long term.

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        1. So let me see. A former first and second round draft pick (both top 10 prospects in their organizations) in exchange for a good (no longer close to great) 36 year old shortstop on the last year of a contract? Honestly, that would be a great haul under the circumstances.

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  9. Just saw Windle and Elfin also. Jayson Stark reports Phils going to try Herrera at CF. “Could very well be the team’s opening day CF.”

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  10. I like Herrera just looking at his numbers. age and he can play a couple of positons, Looks like a nice utility player if not a starter. Real negative is lack of power,

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  11. Rollins going from 1 thirty something teams to another. 3 Dodgers infields are in there walk yrs as per there contacts go. ………. lol Rollins comes back next yr team up with Utley 1 last yr then both retire. It will give Crawford 2 yrs to come up.I have no idea who Wil be ss this yr. FYI Herrera has never been above A A for a reason.

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  13. Starting to hear that the return for Rollins includes:

    Zach Eflin (RHP) (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=eflin-000zac&utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.mlbtraderumors.com) who was originally drafted in the 1st rd of the 2012 draft with the 33rd pick by the Padres
    And
    Tom Windle (LHP) (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=windle001tho&utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.mlbtraderumors.com) who was drafted in the 2nd rd of the 2013 draft by the Dodgers.

    Both are still young (Eflin won’t be 21 until next April, Windle will turn 23 in March) and projectable (both come in at 6’4’’). Exceptionally happy with the return. Would have been content with just one of these guys

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  14. Herrera it’s been his defense and he just started working hard . They took a look at him at ss and cf.he’s a 2nd base man with some hit and speed , no way ready for big league.Would be good A A or triple right now.

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    1. Who cares? Put him on the big league roster and play him 500 ABs. Not like we’re going to win anything this year anyway, the experience is good and if that allows us to retain an average future starter, it’s a no brainer.

      The whole concept of “Bringing someone up too soon risks the players confidence” is bullshit to me. You set the kids expectations saying, “I’m looking for you to play great defense this year and hit .220, do that and we’ll be elated.” and be done with it.

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    1. Yes he plays a good 2nd now playing cf in winter ball I didn’t know. Texas I don’t think will take him back he’s been in there system for 6 yrs . I will if I can get his power stats from Winter ball.

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  17. On ESPN subscription service Keith Law confirmed that the Phils get the two suspected young pitchers for Rollins mentioned abovd : Windle and Eflin. Law thinks this was a very bog + for the Phils and Reading next year.

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  18. Next: Byrd trade. To whom and for what? And, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, Howard has been discussed by Orioles…?? Acquiring Herrera is a good thing in Rule 5. Now, how about getting rid of Brown?? Enough awaiting for him to have more consistency at bat and really working at left fielding which is atrocious. Will they keep their present CFer to lead off with Herrera learning the position to replace him…and maybe soon trade our “short-fielder” ? More pitching, please, in a Byrd trade!!

    Would’ve preferred Zach Lee…but the two guys mentioned look OK except for each ones’ more hits than innings. Looks like two seasons for each before they’d be ready for MLB.

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    2. If the team isn’t going to compete I don’t know why anyone would want to get rid of Brown?

      Play him in right, this kid in center in a platoon with Sizemore, and Revere in left (or Asche).

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  19. Both the Rollins trade and the rule 5 pick-ups are excellent. I have literally zero complaints. Nothing earth shattering but a good solid return. The sooner you guys realize we aren’t a contending team in the next two years, the easier it will be for you accept these kinds of trades. Giving up players who provide no value 3-5 years from now in exchange for players who might is always the right choice.

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    1. Just to reiterate, this is about accumulating assets that will benefit us when we can contend. And lets be completely transparent, there’s literally zero value in being an average team. Either we’re contenders coming into a season, or we’re not. If we’re not, this is the kind of play you have to make.

      And for those of you who disagree, give me a realistic path to how the Phillies will be favorites to win the division in the next 2 years. Baring that, you shouldn’t have anything to complain about.

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      1. This is baseball. You don’t have to do one or the other. We have a minor league system for a reason. Honestly, what is with this attitude that you have to sell off the entire team? We have quite a few solid players already, and plenty of guys coming up in the system both homegrown and from trades. We need a rotation (something we’ve needed since they got rid of Oswalt) and a catcher. We have options at second base and shortstop, and I have no problem whatsoever starting Franco at 1st, Asche at 3rd, and Ruff in LF.

        Had we made the trades we needed to at the deadline (Papelbon, Byrd, Burnett, Ruiz, etc) we wouldn’t be talking about this nonsense of “rebuilding”. That’s what bad organizations do, ones that are cheap and have a fire sale whenever their players get too expensive.

        I don’t see anybody complaining. People are allowed to disagree with you, whether you like it or not. Especially if they’ve been watching the team their whole lives.

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        1. Well things seem positive with the acquisitions these last few days, but realistically, do you think the Phillies will be able to surpass the Nats, Mets, Braves and even the Marlins in 2015?
          IMO, the Mets could very well displace the Nats and win the division with their pitching.
          So the Phillies would seem to be gearing up for a run in 2017 or later timeframe.

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          1. no romus I don’t and I am lucky I didn’t renew my tickets I will use the 5500 for a trip to Hawaii. anyone need a bastardo jersey xxl

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          2. You don’t need to “gear up”. If you have a guy to develop at a position then you develop him. Otherwise you sign or trade for somebody who can play that position.

            This attitude of “rebuilding” makes sense in leagues where draft position matters, but honestly given that there’s dozens of rounds in the MLB draft, do you really think it matters enough to not try to contend? The trades we’re making are trades we need to make. Other than the Rollins trade, we needed to make them last year at the deadline. Our season was over last year, and it was time to trade the guys who weren’t going to be a factor anymore and see what our young guys could do for the second half of the season. That is what good teams do. This is the same stuff that we demanded Ed Wade get fired for, and it’s exactly the reason the Phillies haven’t won since that NLCS in 2010.

            Teams should be doing this evaluation every single year. Good teams do.

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        2. Did you see the post last week? If you project forward, you have a SS, Crawford, a 3B Franco, a CF in Quinn, a #3 SP in Nola and a #4 SP in Biddle. Assuming no Hamels deal, you have him as a #1. No 1B, 2B, C, LF or RF and still need a #2 SP. How do you get all of those things without a rebuild? What would you call it? Any team with Hernandez, Ruf and Asche every day will lose 100 games. I am being generous with Quinn.

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          1. What post are you talking about exactly?

            So where would Asche play if you put Franco at 3rd?

            Seriously? 100 games? Don’t you think you’re exaggerating just a tad there?

            Seriously, I don’t get why it has to be either-or with some of you. These trades needed to happen anyway. Why label it a rebuild and talk like we’re trying to be the Sixers? Trading Rollins isn’t some “we’re blowing it up” move. He’s not what he used to be. Trading Papelbon, trading Byrd, trading Ruiz, that’s what good teams do. Outside of the Marlins and other small market teams, you don’t hear them say “we’re rebuilding”. Perfect example is the Red Sox after the ’04 core stopped being effective and after the ’07 one did. They traded for and signed other players to replace them in addition to the guys they brought up through their system. Both times it was the right move and they won the World Series not long after. That trade for Beckett and Lowell cost them a lot but it worked. The Phillies haven’t done a trade like that since Curt Schilling, instead trading for guys right before they drop off like Halladay did. That’s why the Nationals have jumped us. They traded for top of the line pitchers in multiple seasons and for top players and signed others. Trading for Gio Gonzalez and Doug Fister when both were young and on the rise is why the Nationals won last year. Trading good prospects for Michael Young (seriously, who does that?), trading a ton for Pence and getting nothing back pretty much, getting virtually nothing for Victorino, and not trading for top pitchers in their prime or top players is why the Phillies have not won.

            You do realize that we picked up Franco in the AA part of the Rule 5 right? That’s what happens in baseball. Sometimes you get a guy in an unexpected place, and if you’re smart you get guys from the draft and international free agency as well.

            I can’t believe I’m seriously seeing people advocating tanking in baseball. How many of you guys honestly watch the Phillies? I don’t know a single real Phillies fan who would put up with tanking an MLB season. There are over 150 games in a season. Who thought the Giants would win this year? The Red Sox the year before that? Anything can happen in a season. More importantly, do you have any idea how many first round picks have flopped? This isn’t the NBA where drafting a high first rounder means drafting a guy who is most likely going to be a star and will contribute nearly right away. There is no bigger crapshoot than the MLB draft. Nothing else comes close.

            You guys are being ridiculous. We’ve drafted how many high upside players since 2008? They can’t all suck. That’s not humanly possible. The fact is that the Top 10 changes year to year for a reason. Guys come up who you didn’t expect and guys drop down who you didn’t expect. That happens in every organization. You’re acting like the sky is falling.

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            3. Anonymous. you live in a dream world. sorry they aren’t tanking on purpose. The group that is in charge are just morons. plain and simple. except for gillick and how much say will he have when mont comes back. Its a shame but we are stuck with two morons like Montgomery and amaro and a moron in the background Giles. Until and its a big until Middleton can get control, we will be bad. But you can always refer to the 69 mets. they had little and won.

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            4. Franco was not a Rule 5 pickup. You don’t even know how they acquired their number 1 prospect so there goes any credibility you may have had.

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            5. Sal Agostinelli picked up Maikel in a lifeboat as he was swimming from the DR to Florida in Jan 2010.
              Sal ask if he could swing a bat, he said ‘Si’ and then he told him Ruben the Phillies GM, then wants you , here is $10K , now grab a paddle and help me get back to America.

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            6. @Anonymous: Lol kid I guarantee I’ve been following the Phillies longer than you have. I got him confused with the guy we picked up from Cleveland in the minor league section of the Rule 5 draft for some reason. Everybody makes mistakes.

              Not sure how you’ve established your credibility though.

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            7. Losing only 100 games would be a realistic goal,,, It is going to get worse too. The minor league teams all finished last . They were all horrible. Serious lack of talent down there/ No one anybody really wants to trade for either. Good Luck.

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        3. I agree this is a horrible organization, but let’s not get crazy and call them cheap. You can argue that they didn’t spend the money wisely, but that goes back to the point of the horrible organization. They’re clueless. Nobody even knows who is in charge.

          I got news for you, NO we DON’T already have some solid young players. Just simply adding to this same group of players will NEVER give us a shot at anything. I don’t care if we went out and added Lester and Scherzer this offseason, we would still stink!!!! Rollins, Utley, Howard are done, have been for the past couple years. I’d rather watch a team full of Galvis and Hernandez, Asche type players for the next 2 or 3 years while we continue to add young talent and watch different players advance throught the farm. It is seriously depressing watching this “core” play every night.

          I refuse to give them any kind of support for a re-build although I think it is the only option. But the problem is that it is the only option because of the moves they’ve made the last few years, which is unacceptable. We are the laughing stock of baseball.

          They are loaded with money. No reason at all why they shouldn’t do anything possible to make sure they are able to sign Yoan Moncada, or players like him. Particularly because the “penalties” they will pay are only monetary, which they will spend anyway. They’ve only signed 2 guys over the $300k bonus amount they would be restricted to for future signings since like 2001 anyway. Why not spend some money to add a potential 19 year old stud to the farm? What is sad is that we all know that there is a ZERO % chance they sign Moncada.

          Bottom line is we are now stuck with Hamels because it’s apparent that teams aren’t shipping off any of their top guys for him. I’m just looking for some direction. I don’t want to watch a horrible team with Utley, Howard, Ruiz, Pepelbon, Byrd, Hamels. As if the last 2-3 years weren’t bad enough.

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          1. Actually since 2011 they signed Tocci, Grullon, Encarnacion, Pujols, Gamboa and another over that $300K threshold…Santana was for $330K prior to Tocci.
            But your point about them being chinzy in the LA market is correct and has been discussed on here numerous times.
            The Yankees, Cubs and Rangers all ‘busted’ the international monies allocations and suffered the penalty….whoopee…really a strict penalty by MLB! They cannot sign another international guy for more then $300 for a year. That penalty needs to be changed. In the meantime all three teams have set up their farm systems for 2016 and beyond with fairly decent prospects.
            I can only assume if the Phillies stay the ‘frugal’ course…they will be shopping Rule 5 bargains from the three aforementioned teams in 4/5 years.

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            1. Thanks for clarification. I think I meant to include that it was 2 guys between 2001 and 2011? Maybe that was more accurate?

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          2. How exactly do we not already have solid young players? We have some great bullpen arms, just for starters. Name me the last time we had a guy like Giles who was HOMEGROWN.

            “We all know that there is a ZERO% chance they sign Moncada”. That’s exactly the problem, not anything else. They overpay for guys, overtrade for guys, but then when it’s time to sign the right guy they don’t pull the trigger. It’s Carlos Beltran all over again.

            We’re not disagreeing on that. That doesn’t mean “rebuilding” though. It means trading guys that don’t fit anymore, which every good team does.

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  20. No complaints, at all, about Herrera or Rollins trade, and nothing bad to say about Bastardo trade, either. I want to see Byrd get something, and I want to take a flyer on Medlen. I don’t understand why they picked a 2d Rule V guy, but that is minor. My complaint is that they did not get Castillo or Tomas because all that cost was $. If Lee can pitch, he gets traded, and if he can’t, his option does not kick in. Either way, his $25Million is gone after the yr. After 2016, Pap $ and Howard $ gone also. Either Cuban player would have fit nicely.

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  21. I like the 3 pitchers we received the trades we should get 1 in the rotation .I not crazy I see about between 50 to 80 wins.2016 is the big yr that’s when the Comcast comes into play.Howard has a buy out Cliff Lee might be gone too . That in itself has a lot of money to play with.We traded Bastardo who we really don’t need and J roll who will be a fa next yr.lets go out and get some more pitching.I’m not worried about replacing a cf who hit 300 and stole 49 bases. Let’s get pap, Byrd, Howard out now.

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  22. Well a couple trades really went a long way in helping out our pitching depth which was a concern for this season.

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      1. I think that’s probably about right. Again, this is a HUGE haul for a 36 year old shortstop on the last year of his contract. The Dodgers over paid because: (a) they have a real deficit at the position – Rollins is a pretty big upgrade; (b) Rollins’ contract is very reasonable; (c) the obligation to Rollins doesn’t run past this year: (d) their best position prospect will likely be able to take over at the position next year (or they can extend Rollins another year while they work him in); (e) they are a championship contender; and (f) they have extraordinary financial resources and a decent system.

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    3. We definitely only have 3 guys better than Eflin. Windle arguably comes a few later but for me they’re 4 and 5.

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        1. Ruben signed or acquired the following pitching prospects in the last month:
          Eflin-RHP…..Trade
          Windle-LHP…..Trade
          Rodriguez-LHP…Trade
          Araujo-LHP….FA signee
          Oliver-LHP….. Rule 5

          What I like about them all, is that they all will be 21-years old or older next season and we will see soon how many pan out. There is no 3/4 year wait cycle for them.

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  24. So did the pitcher heavy draft .I was thinking if the Japan pitcher is still available. We could Trade Ryan Howard for him. But Herrera is a good hitter but is lefty and his split against lefty to right 208 avg left 371 against right. He has 318 slg last yr. I love the hit tool hold to him put him In triple A..

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  25. MLB.com already has Joely Rodriquez as their 19th best prospect so I’d assume that the 2 from the Dodgers (via the Padres) would fall somewhere in the top 15 or maybe even 12. I’m more interested to see if the rule 5 guy breaks the top 20 or PP’s top 30.

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  26. Byrd, Howard, Revere, and $50 million to the Orioles for Harvey, Davies, Berry, and Wright- numbers 2, 6, 7, and 8 prospects according to BA.

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    1. And some crack for Baltimore to do that! Baltimore is a playoff team and Howard and revere equal watching TV in October regardless of how much money you eat. In the mean time we will get 4 top ten prospects, wow!

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      1. Revere hit .300 and stole 49 bases last year. He also happens to be young. Still, that would be a crazy trade. Do you have a source or something, RTJ?

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    2. It would be a neat trade even with the money, but it just sounds so far-fetched. Why on earth would Baltimore do that?

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      1. omg people are thumbing down a make believe trade, like its fact. and its would be a great trade anytrade, that unloads howard is a great deal.

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  27. I see the Phils also lost 3 in the minor league portion of the rule 5 draft: Kyle Simon, Peter Lavin and Delvi Francisco. They don’t have to be offered back. Simon was a guy who looked solid in Arizona League 2 years ago. He put himself on the radar but disappointed this year and fell off the radar. Lavin is considered too old to help the big club but he’s been successful as high as AA. I liked having him in the organization but never penciled him in for a big league job. Delvi was intriguing because he played OF and the Phils switched him to a relief pitcher. I guess his arm played pretty well there but he did not have a good 2014. I thought it was because of injury and clearly some other team did too. It’s interesting that the Phil’s minor leaguers got such interest when most people think it is a pretty weak organization after the top 4 or 5.

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    1. Of the 3 Francisco hurts the most. 2 Seasons back he was a sleeper for me to jump into our top 20. I’ve seen him pitch and he has an electric FB. He was still learning to command it and of course develop a secondary pitch thus his 2014 season didn’t look good on paper.

      C’est la vie as in the end neither Simon or Lavin are going to be major pieces on a big league club and even Francisco who does have that potential has long odds to put it together.

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      1. DMAR;
        Ruben signed or acquired the following hopeful pitching prospects now:
        Eflin-RHP…..Trade
        Windle-LHP…..Trade
        Rodriguez-LHP…Trade
        Araujo-LHP….FA signee
        Oliver-LHP….. Rule 5
        Will see how many pan out in the near future.

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        1. Odubel Herrera:
          Guy can hit it appears in this small sampling from winter ball, not sure he will be able to play CF but he is playing it down there from what I read.

          G42- PA162-AB147-H55 -Doubles-12 -Triples-2- HRs- 4 RBIs-18 SBs- 4 CS- 1 BB- 11- K24- Slash Line.374- .421- .565- .986

          And is hitting for some power….but the pitching down there may be suspect.

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          1. Look at his stats, he’s hit every year. Texas is just loaded in middle infielders. I guess that’s why they decided late in the year to try him in CF. He was voted the best fielding 2B in the league so the kid has a glove to be sure. Apparently, the reports have been very good on his CF play as well. Some guys are just ballers, this kid might just be a great glove wherever he plays. Also, as more of a contact hitter than a power hitter, his stroke might play better in the MLB quicker. I think he has a real shot to play, not only make the team. A bad team can easily afford to keep this guy. Great pick up potentially.

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            1. Scouting Report: JJ Cooper of BA writes: “Originally signed out of Venezuela for $160,000, Herrera does two things well: he can hit and he has plus speed. After his stock dropped in 2013, Herrera bounced back in 2014, winning the Texas League batting title as a 22-year-old, batting .321/.373/.402 in 96 games. Herrera has good bat speed and a simple swing that helps him hit line drives to all fields. He doesn’t have much power though, hitting just two home runs with a swing that isn’t geared for loft. He’s played well this winter in the Venezuelan League, batting .374/.421/.565 with four home runs in 42 games, ranking first in the league in batting average, second in OBP and third in slugging. The question on Herrera is where he’s going to play. He improved his defense at second base in 2014, and managers voted him the TL’s Best Defensive Second Baseman in the BA Best Tools survey. He’s spent time in left field and this winter has been playing center, which is where the rebuilding Phillies plan to use him in spring training. A lefthanded hitter with a thick 5-foot-11, 200-pound frame, Herrera could become a player along the lines of Cubs infielder Luis Valbuena. Chances To Stick: 50-50.

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        2. This is precisely what he needed to do. Acquire multiple young pitchers with fairly high upsides, try to coach them up and hopefully a few make it. It’s a very sound approach for a team looking for improvements wherever it can make them.

          Now I’d like to see him do some of that on the position player side. To say that Ruben has neglected offense during his tenure would be a huge understatement. He seems to only marginally care about it and he’s definitely not very good at addressing it when he does give it attention. It makes the team extremely boring to watch and it puts a ton of pressure on the pitchers, particularly the starters.

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          1. It’s amazing given all of the high upside position players they’ve drafted. How can you miss on so many guys?

            I guess when they’re all “toolsy”, that’s how.

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            1. The Phillies were big gamblers in the draft. They passed by good guys in the first round to pick ‘he’s so athletic and runs so fast and is such a great CF or has such great raw power, that if he ever learns to hit we’ll have a star’. Lot of bets, no hits. Guys like LGJ just laughable. The last two years they’ve stopped gambling on the early picks and taken guys who have actually shown they are good. You can’t project Nola to an ace, but you can easily see a #2/3 starter, with very little further development required. You can’t dream on Crawford becoming A-Rod, but it doesn’t take much more development for him to be an above-average starting MLB SS. Nothing at all exciting about Imfhof, but it’s easy to look without a lot of projection and see a #4 guy in an MLB rotation. In drafts past, guys like Hewitt came to be described as ‘a PHillies-type pick’ prior to the draft. It has been very telling to me that over a stretch of quite a few years, we did quite well with our later round selections, probably among the very top performances, and stank in the first two rounds. Look at the 2008 draft. A lot of the guys were fodder in big trades for us, but that was a great draft for us, despite a complete washout in first two rounds. Why does this stand out? Because.the vast bulk of the bonus money goes to those top two guys. Those are the guys that Wolever, and all his national cross-checkers, and likely RAJ look at repeatedly and fall in love with. That those guys bombed says something about the guys having the final say on our top picks. Move down to later rounds and you have guys that some individual scout liked and pushed — the kid won’t cost that much to sign, so the scout gets his wish and we draft the kid in the 4th or 7th or 12th round. Same on the international front. The expensive guys, the guys that a Wolever or RAJ are going to have input into approving — really not so good in our results. The cheap guys whom Agostinelli picked up entirely on his own with his pocket money, like Ruiz or Franco, were where our not plentiful hits came from. Wolever is gone for very good reasons. The kind of players he absolutely fell in love with, simply never could learn to hit.

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            2. @allentown: Completely agree. I was here commenting when the Phillies changed their strategy in 2007/2008. They made a lot of solid picks on guys in the later rounds but yeah their first rounders have been awful. Greene not working out, Hewitt, but to me the absolute worst is Savery. That pick will always bother me, along with Hewitt and now Greene.

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        3. I’m ok with what they have done so far. I’m not a RAJ hater remember : )

          Not terribly excited either. I’m hoping there are some bigger presents under my Christmas Tree.

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    2. I don’t recall Francisco ever having a good season. For the past two years he has allowed a lot of runs and has demonstrated little idea of control or command. He is, however, one of those guys who could surprise , like Jake Dieckman, who had never showed a lot until the year they sent him to the AFL and he was fantastic.

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  28. KLaw had very positive things to say about the Phillies’ return for Jimmy.

    http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/keith-law/post?id=3121

    For the non-insiders, he likes both pitchers.

    Windle: “a solid-average to slightly above-average changeup and fringe-average slider. He pitched well in a brutal environment in the California League and I like his chances to break out as a prospect in the much more reasonable Eastern League in 2015. ”

    Eflin: “I’m a big fan of his potential, with his frame, his two above-average pitches and his aggressive, strike-throwing mentality. I saw Reading, the Phillies’ Double-A affiliate, late this past summer, and they were virtually prospect-free, but with these two arms and perhaps Crawford on the roster, Reading will be a must-see team this season.”

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      1. Oh my GAWD, its keith law hes a phillies hater, these players MUST be terrible, and he just wants to stick it to us by getting our hopes up

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    1. I don’t know why someone voted thumbs down on this. Let’s break down that trade. First, moving Howard is all about salary relief since he’s preventing the team from moving forward and he was worse than a replacement level player last year. He’s really only worth about $5 million a year right now, so the salary relief is welcomed. Byrd has some value but he’s also preventing them from moving forward, so if someone takes his salary and the Phillies get back a top 10 prospect, I think that would work. Obviously, you might want to try to get a little more in this trade but if you like the prospect enough, I think you do it.

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  30. I think Tampa is a spot for Howard but I also think the Phils should eat whatever they have to. Kendrys Morales had an awful season, can only DH, and got a 2 year deal. Those of you with more analytics knowledge than me can tell me how Howard vs. Morales compares, but from a visual standpoint, they are very close. Clearly no prospect changed hands with Morales, but $ cost for Howard will be less. Any hope he moves? I think Byrd goes after Cabrera signs. Would love Berry from Baltimore.

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    1. I think your wish could come true if Melky continues to hold out for 5 years. A Byrd deal is coming soon and Berry is a reasonable return I think although I would love Cisco the catcher.

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  31. Looked up the stats, Morales .218/274/338, 8HRs 42RBI’s, 367 PAs. Howard .223/310/380, 23 HRs, 95RBI’s, 648 PAs. Morales 2 years/$17Million. If Phils pay $50Million, that makes it a 2/$10Million deal, and Phils get A level prospect. I think Howard is better option. Thoughts?

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    1. The short version is that it is more reasonable to expect a bounce back from Morales than it is to expect one from Howard. Morales is younger and was better in 12-13, whereas Howard really wasn’t. Not a huge edge to Morales, but explains why a team would be more willing to take a chance on him. For players that close to replacement level, small differences can mean a lot.

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      1. I don’t entirely agree with you that Morales is that much better. While I agree Howard’s nothing interesting at this point in his career, at least offensively, Morales would have to “bounce back” far more then Howard to achieve the same results. Honestly, I think they’re both borderline major league talent at this point and as a GM I probably wouldn’t sign either.

        On a side note, it’s really amazing just how much the steroid policy has impacted offensive output. It’s approaching the dead ball era. the NL last year averaged 3.9 runs per game, in the dead ball era it was 3.4, which while still significantly more, represents the lowest output since 1981, 33 years ago. Additionally, if you follow the trend, the odds they eclipse 1981 next year are very high. Which would put them at the 43 year low (1972 had 3.69). That doesn’t mean teams should focus on pitching, if anything it actually significantly cheapens pitching performance, and if I was running a franchise, I’d probably disproportionately allocate resources to offense.

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        1. Just to add a little more color about how bad offenses are today, after 1972, the lowest output in MLB history was in 1908 with an average RS of 3.38. I don’t know, it really wouldn’t surprise me to see baseball continue this downward trend for another few years. We’ll see… but none-the-less games these days are historically low scoring affairs.

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        2. You may be right but that misses the point.

          The key take away is that The Royals believe (rightly or wrongly) that he IS a bounce back candidate, or they wouldn’t have signed him. No one, not even the worst organization in baseball (ahem) would sign him if his 2014 performance was their expectation.

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          1. I got the point, I was just expressing that I didn’t agree with the Royals assumption primarily because he was far worse then Howard in 2014. Performing like Howard would be a bounce back! I don’t know if he’ll outperform Howard but it seems like a crap shoot to me. That said, it almost doesn’t matter, neither player is a difference maker and on that, I think we both agree.

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        3. Supra………’if I was running a franchise, I’d probably disproportionately allocate resources to offense’
          But what form of an offense?….long ball playing, or the so called ‘small-ball’ option, or little of both,
          You go long-ball you may sacrifice defense, OBP, and then an increased elevated K rates…..ala Atlanta Braves 2014….but you may get one or two crooked innings worth of runs.
          Small-ball…increased SBs probably, lower HRs, lower K-rates I assume, and perhaps better defense, but you do need plus pitching.

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          1. In all honesty, I don’t know if it matters. As they say, there are lots of ways to skin a cat, if I have 1 player who has a .250 average, but puts up a 12% BB Rate and steals 40 bags that’s fantastic. Vice versa, I’ll take a .280 hitter with 20 HR’s and a 5% walk rate. To me at least, it’s all about run production and total offensive value and I think we all agree that can occur in a variety of ways. If you look back to the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, teams stole way more bases. In 1912 Chief Wilson had 36 triples in a single season (one of baseballs potentially unbreakable records). If players can’t hit homeruns, speed is another viable option to create value.

            I think the justification behind my belief is that if quality pitching performances are “cheap” due to poor offenses, then offensive output should be at a premium because those kinds of players are far more rare. Today, a .290 hitter who walks at 7% and hits 25 home runs is considerably more valuable then he was 5 years ago. Baseball is as “out-of-whack” as it was during the steroid era.

            Just look at free agency and the availability of game changing offensive players vs pitching. It’s remarkable and worth note. The way I would go about implementing such a strategy would likely be via the draft.

            As a not-well thought out example, perhaps something like this:

            Players are given 3 scores.

            Offense “0” (Hitting Tool (including BB rate), Power Tool, Baserunning Tool)
            Defense “D” (Speed/Acceleration, Hands, Arm, Path to the Ball)
            Intangibles “I”
            Pitching “P” (Pitchers only, Velocity, Control, Command, Movement)

            I’d then do something like this when drafting:

            O*1.1 + D*.95 + P*.95 = Total Score

            And then draft BPA.

            The 10% / -5% / -5% was totally arbitrary and just to prove a point.

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      2. No argument with you there, however, it is a $7Million difference I am suggesting which, at the very least, makes it possible that a team will take Howard because a team took Morales. And, signing Morales vs. trading for Howard may still be the way to go, but whereas before I had no hope someone would take him, now I do.

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    2. Deals like this one show how little baseball in general thinks of Ryan Howard these days and how totally unimpressed other GMs are with his 95 RBIs in 2014. Howard has been on a very consistent downslide, that reached OPS .690 last year. Projecting forward, maybe a bounce from Morales although I wouldn’t want to make that bet, but likely a .670 OPS for Howard. Howard’s downfall was just partially due to aging and the Achilles. Teams learned how to pitch and defense him. Once everyone used the extreme shift and destroyed him with low and away breaking balls, Howard was done.

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      1. Don’t forget that for at least his first few years all he could do was hit to the other side.

        Then after the Home Run Derby he was trying to pull all the time and hasn’t been the same since. I do think people play down the effects aging had on him, too. He was 26 in his first full season, and by the time the Phillies got Halladay, Howard was in his 30s. It was probably injuries up until about 2012, but after that it was clearly age and him losing the knowledge of hitting that he used to have. I think he can be a solid DH somewhere with enough patience though.

        The same thing is going to happen to Ruf and every other prospect we don’t call up until they’re 25 or older.

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        1. I have no problem with the movement forward…..which satirically is labelled as ‘tanking’.
          And my guess……Ivory soap of the phans feel the same.

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          1. Ya, unfortunately I do, and all the phans who will be flocking to CBP to watch Galvis make us more athletic at short stop….how is he more athletic than Rollins….oh ya he is good at kicking folks in the butt while they do something athletic.

            Sorry to be a downer but I just don’t get why people think its moving forward to just get prospects and have nobody to watch at the MLB level. Again how many great prospects have we developed in the last 3 years?

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            1. Define great.
              2011,,,,Dom Brown was a top 5 rated prospect by both BA and BP, who knew he end up where he is now.
              Asche can be a serviceable MLB player.
              Franco seems ready to come on.
              That is a loaded question, since the core of Rollins/Utley/Howard/Chooch were still the foundation back in 2010/2011 and were not going tobe displaced.
              The Phillies helped develop Jon Singleton. Cosart, D’Arnaud, Gose and Santana…so they got traded, they were still born and breast-fed in the Phillies organization…

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            2. @Romus: Who knew Dom Brown would end up where is now? Me. I’ve been saying it since they trade Taylor instead of him. The same people saying “everybody knows we need to rebuild and bla bla bla” are the ones who claimed Dom Brown would easily replace Werth and shouted down and insulted anybody who disagreed with the groupthink.

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            3. Werth isn’t gone, because everyone thought Brown would be better. Werth is gone because the Phillies couldn’t afford the deal he got from Washington. The Phillies liked Werth and badly wanted him back. This one was all about the $$$, and there were an awful lot of $. If Howard hadn’t been given that big contract two years early, Werth would still by a Phillie. I also think if Brown hadn’t been jerked around to accommodate Delmon Young, we might be seeing more out of Brown now.

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            4. @allentown1 : I never said that’s why he’s gone. I said that’s the groupthink nonsense people on here were saying, that Brown could easily replace him.

              The point is some of us knew these things all along. I never felt Dom Brown would turn into a legitimate MLB player.

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        2. If baseball was to be canceled forever after 2015, then it would make sense to go with proven players. Since there will be many more seasons, we need to ignore 2015, and rebuild for the future. This is a team that spent $177 million to win only 73 games, counting on 8 key players over 35, and precious little young contributors. There is no future in that. No — I don’t see a point in hanging onto Marlon Byrd in his age 37 season, as the teams struggles to win 70 games. I want the Philllies to do what is necessary to fairly quickly assemble our next playoff team, not wander aimlessly around 70-73 wins, while not rebuilding for the future.

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          1. This has been my point on several posts over the last few months… in all honesty, we seem to have degenerated into a different type of fan here @ PP and I’m not sure this is even a rational debate anymore.

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            1. You’re right….. bandwagon fans who think they know everything and don’t know how to be respectful. Some of us, myself included, have been following this blog since before the Phillies even made the playoffs in 2007.

              We don’t always agree with you, especially because you push groupthink without actually proving its validity and insult/act condescending towards people who disagree.

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      2. That’s not rebuilding, that’s crawling into a hole for several years. Rebuilding is getting major league ready talent while developing your prospects in the farm.

        We are getting rid of major league talent, and getting good at top 30 prospect lists for the next several years.

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          1. I answer with a question, how many prospects have we developed recently. Kenny Giles is the only one that maybe will be any good, and he may have just had a Dom Brown moment.

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            1. “We” have developed 7 prospects recently. Diekman, De Fratus, Asche, Buchanan, Pettibone, Ruf, and Galvis may all be good. Diekman and De Fratus have already proven at least as much as Giles has. Asche and Buchanan are still on the upward trajectories of their careers. Ruf and Galvis are unproven and need opportunities. Galvis has had injury problems but they are in the past and he is still very young. He gave the Phillies value as 22-year-old rookie in 2012 when Utley went down. Ruf had to recover from an injury last season but had an historically good first couple hundred MLB plate appearances, leading or close to leading the Phillies in OPS+ in 2012 and 2013.

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          2. Got ya, but that is like saying before Howard Blew out his tendon what was he. Yes most major league players were prospects at one time, Most most prospects never become consistent major league players.

            We had a team full of consistent major league players from 2007 – 2011. The goal at that point was to replace the ones who were not performing with consistent performing free agent major leaguers while developing prospects.

            The big problem that I see since 2011 (other than uncontrolable issues like injuries, suspensions, poor years…lee, hamels, halliday) is that we have been poor at selecting and developing prospects. So a strategy of just getting prospects for players….not mlb ready players, does not seem attractive.

            We need to make changes in the farm system if we hope to get better with prospects. Getting rid of one guy is usually just a scapegoat.

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            1. Ken45 “We” have developed 7 prospects recently. Diekman, De Fratus, Asche, Buchanan, Pettibone, Ruf, and Galvis may all be good.

              Diekman – How long has he been up and down from MLB club and in development. Yes he did finally show enough consistency last year to think that we could trade another inconsistent bullpen piece, and is potentially the best of the 7 you mentioned, but he is not a large difference maker like Rollins, Utley, Howard, Hamels, and chooch when they came up. Just think of all the other Diekman like prospects that came up through our system in the early to mid 2000’s.

              De Fratus is a mid low bullpen piece who has bounced around like Diekman not much of an argument for our development program.

              Asche is a marginal player, who unless he starts has no real value as a utility guy. He has decent defense but other than that? I mean Franco has not even emerged yet and they are talking about replacing Asche with him.

              Buchanan – Serously, a developed prospect? Number 7 starter and org guy at best.

              Pettibone – maybe could have been a number 5 or 6 starter before he blew out his arm. Nobody is mentioning him now.

              Ruf – is having trouble making the team as a pinch hitter

              Galvis – Utility guy at best

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        2. That is exactly why they should have taken a risk with Tomas. Close to Major League ready with a skill missing in the organization. The Phillies are not tanking, they just stink in the way that the Knicks are not tanking, but only a game ahead of the Sixers on merit. The Phils just screwed this team up through mismanagement. Now that we are here, it is suggested that it is time to start over. That requires some talent in the prospect pool and the smart acquisition of young Major League talent. I don’t understand who you feel should play for the team next year while the rebuilding is ongoing. Where is this Major League ready talent coming from other than a trade for Hamels?

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          1. Well you answered your own question….Tomas. There is a little thing called free agents. Again I know our payroll goes up until Howards bloated contract goes in a couple years, but as a phan I would rather have major league ready players while we develop the farm players…which hopefully we will get better at.

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            1. But that’s the problem — the farm was very weak and needed an infusion of talent. You couldn’t just keep playing the old guys and waiting for the youngsters in the system to mature, because there weren’t enough talented youngsters to provide the nucleus for a playoff team. Young talent needed to be added to the system. Trading major leaguers for prospects is the age-old way to accomplish that. Cutting back on the $$ you are paying to so many 35+ vets and diverting those $ to sign Cubans is another route.

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            2. OBVIOUSLY… but you’re dwelling on the past, give me an option going forward or stop your complaining.

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          1. So the only you can rebuild is by getting rid of all you MLB players and starting from scratch. Why can’t you rebuild with agents, players from other countries like Cuba who are pros, etc? Sure getting some new prospects in the mix is healthy. But blowing up the team in hopes that maybe you’ll get 1 or two good players years from now is silly. Its not rebuilding it is hoping for a miracle while you continually play on the farm.

            Sorry I just don’t please loading up on prospects in the answer.

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            2. Nobody said they had to get rid of all their major league players. I’m a big advocate of signing Cubans. But… it is beyond foolish for a team that was as bad as the Phillies were last season to hold onto so many 35+ players. What they did at the last trade deadline was asinine. I can see the wisdom of keeping Hamels — he’s likely good for 4 more years. You keep Brown for a turnaround. You keep Giles and Asche to build around. You keep the young guys in the pen. But the 35+ brigade — just no.

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            3. Why can’t you rebuild with FA? Because teams are now locking up their FA and you can’t get any good, youngish (under 30), reasonably priced FA. You can pay what it took to land Lester, and that isn’t an awful thing to do. As we lay a base, I’m quite sure we’ll be doing exactly that in probably 2017. You don’t rebuild by adding the Youngs, Adams, Durbin, Burnett, Byrd, and re-signing Ruiz. That just isn’t re-building. It’s patching-and-filling around the old core, with players who have no chance to be a part of your next winning team. Now… if you can sign rental-type FA for reasonable contracts so that you can flip them for prospects at the trade dead-line, that can be a positive approach. With Gillick that may work. With RAJ it didn’t, because he clung to his 35+ vets with unbelievable tenacity for the GM of a 73-win team.

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            1. Them? And herein lies the problem with Rem and you, you’ve got this “us” and them mentality and anyone who doesn’t share your opinion, regardless of their reasoning gets lumped in as the “enemy”….

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            2. @Supra98x: Actually, that’s you. It’s not the first time I’ve seen you do it, and you’re clearly doing it to Rem right now.

              Yeah, “them”. The juvenile, unfunny, classless disgraces to local sports journalism. Throw Liberty Ballers in there as well, among others.

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            3. Got ya thanks TruePhan. Was just tired of being misunderstood. I think rebuilding is good at this point, I just think ther is a fundamental problem of doing with prospects that need to be developed in a system that has not doen a good job of that for nearly a decade.

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      1. I get it mds, its also a satire of mine since I think we are going down the same route as the sixers. Other than the year that AI got hot in the play offs (unfortunately not in big series) the sixers have been pathetic since 1985. So you think a 22 year rebuilding strategy is going to be successful?

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        2. That’s the problem. The Sixers went for decades without trying to rebuild, bringing in expensive, lousy vets to try to be competitive. It didn’t work. It couldn’t work. That should be all the example you need to not want the PHillies to go that path. Now the Sixers are rebuilding. They have a chance to be very good quite soon.

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          1. I don’t have the articles but new GM’s, head coaches, etc talked about rebuilding since 1985. Now the farm system for the Sixers was never a strength and its not nearly as big as bb….so maybe the Astros are a better example. When was the last time they were not rebuilding?

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            1. They talked about changing things, not rebuilding. Like the Phillies, the Sixers were afraid to have a truly bad season, which you have to be willing to accept if you are to rebuild. Over that time they kept bringing in failed old vets to keep their salary around the cap and were, at best, mediocre. Especially in basketball, you have to burn it down to become actually good.

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            2. @allentown: No, Rem is right on this one. In fact, after they traded Iverson and Webber they were in full on “rebuilding” mode. They talked about it openly, about following the model of the mid 2000s Bulls with their core of Ben Gordon, Deng, and Hinrich.

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            3. And you’re wrong about having to “burn it down” to become good, as well. No legitimate contender has ever done that. The best teams have one bad year, get a game-changing draft pick, and start winning again.

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            4. They never got bad enough to be considered to have “torn it down” and/or they made back first round picks…. I really wish you’d go to libertyballers.com and have this conversation with the guys over there about the merits of tanking. It’ll be fun. Promise.

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            5. You know nothing about basketball. At all. The Sixers traded away or got rid of every good, non-young player they had except Andre Miller who turned out to be a great point guard for us. They had multiple first round picks and second rounders, and they were in full on rebuilding mode. They just happened to have good enough players to be a lot better a lot quicker than they thought they would be.

              I’d have no problem calling out the know-nothing people on that site. They’re a disgrace. Only one of them is anything more than a former commenter on other sites, and that’s Derek Bodner. The guy who started it is nothing more than an opinionated commenter on depressedfan.

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            6. So take me up on my bet, if the Sixers make the playoffs first, you quit posting here, if the Phillies do, I will. 🙂

              Put up or STFU

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        3. I don’t think you understand what satire means. The guy who wrote it was making fun of people like you. He doesn’t actually believe what he is writing.

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          1. I get it Pat, and I am not looking to make fun of people like you, so you don’t have to be condescending. I just think that the building process that is taking place will be a long time and good teams do it on multiple levels

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            1. Well it eventually worked for the Nats, Pirates, Royals, Rays and all the rest of the 5-year last-place teams.

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            2. The Nats traded for top of the line starters and top players. The Pirates made major signings. The Royals did the same, as did the Rays.

              No team does just one thing and expects it to work. It’s beyond foolish.

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            3. I agree, but there’s a required timing to the whole thing for it to work financially, you don’t sign expensive free agents until you have a sufficiently stocked minor league group. And to be honest, the Phillies really only have 1 “Blue Chip” player in the minors right now… this isn’t the time to invest in free agents.

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            4. ‘The Nats traded for top of the line starters’…Strasburg, Zimmerman, and bullpen pieces like Clippard and Storen were draftees….Gio and Fister were acquired with chips from high picks.
              All of the Pirates OF all draftees/LA signees except 4th OFer Tabata.
              Evan Longoria wasn’t a draftee? Prior to that David Price or James Shields whop they flipped for Wil Myers
              Royals…better check their roster ….many draftees from high picks.

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            5. @Romus: You don’t say? Because I of course didn’t know that those guys were drafted. It doesn’t negate the fact that the guys who put them over the top to actually win were traded for or signed in free agency.

              And Fister, Gio, and Wang among others were either signed or traded for, for starters.

              I never said Longoria wasn’t a draftee. You seem to be forgetting about the multiple deals the Rays made for key players though.

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          2. That’s funny Supra. You can be an awful team in NBA basketball and still make the playoffs. Not so much in baseball. You like to stack the odds. Sure the sixers have a much better chance to make the playoffs before the Phils do again, but it means nothing.

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            1. Romus…Nats, Pirates, and Royals (don’t know that much about the Rays)…seriously they are the ones we want to model after. That’s my point exactly. Nats formerly the Expos, have not only been successful at developing or keeping talent for decades they finally just had to have a team after years of being first in line with the draft. Pirates, when did they last have a good run…. The Royals,Oh ya they had a good team when they lost to the Phils in the 1980 world series. The only team with a longer runs than them is Cleveland. Please don’t say we want to model them.

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        4. I’ll make you a deal smart ass… If the Sixers make it to the playoffs before the Phillies you stop posting here on phuturephillies, if the Phillies make it first, I’ll stop posting.

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    1. Well aren’t you just a ray of sunshine…

      The problem with your comments is that we aren’t going to get major league ready talent for most of our aging players. We can get quality prospects like we did for Rollins and hope they reach the major league level relatively shortly.

      Both Windle and Eflin are supposed to arrive in 2016. That’s not far off from MLB ready. Considering Nola is expected to be in the bigs full time in 2016 we could have three young, cost controlled starters in our rotation right there. That doesn’t include Biddle if he comes back strong, Imhof, or any other pitchers they acquire via trade. If we build a strong rotation, we will be able to trade some arms for bats like the Mets are in a position to do.

      Rebuilding this way is the fastest way for them to compete again. Replace old players who are expensive and becoming less productive with prospects that can be cost controlled and help turn the Franchise around.

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      2. em9 Ya I just disagree that you are going to get anywhere fast with just prospects. I agree you have to find a way of dealing with Howard and any other players like Dom Brown who are not performing, but there are other ways to make a team better than just getting rid of older good players for prospects.

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        1. And what, pray tell, are those ways? Exactly what would you have the Phillies do? It sounds like they did what you wanted last season and won all of 73 games.

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          1. I explained it already but they should have gone for Tomas and looked to get another #3 starting P. I agree with being aggressive in Rule and if you had gotten Tomas you could move Byrd for prospects. Ya, try and move Howard if you can for a prospect and eat his salary. Don’t trade Hamels unless you get a Trout or Strasburg can’t miss talent along with some other potential prospects, etc

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            1. As I said, I’d like to have seen Tomas, really I preferred Rusney Castillo, signed by the Phillies. On trading Hamels, you’re delusional. You can’t get Trout or Strasburg plus prospects, because either Trout or Strasburg are worth more than Hamels. So is a guy like Betts. Hamels has a good, but not cheap contract. He was shut down at the start of 2014 with arm woes. He has mileage on the arm and he is 30. A starting position player, with 6 years of team control, is worth more in baseball economics, because what you pay is worth so much less than the value the guy adds for the next several seasons. That’s why Boston doesn’t want to move Betts.

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            2. He didn’t mean actually Trout or Strasburg but a prospect that is “can’t miss” like they were. The problem with that is that there aren’t many “can’t miss” prospects and when there are, team ARE NOT moving them, period.

              What do you think signing a 3 and Tomas would have done? It wouldn’t have made them a playoff team, hell Lester and Tomas wouldn’t have made them a playoff team. I was one of the people on here who was against signing Tomas bc his numbers don’t really compare to the other Cubans (in their same age seasons) however that was when it was thought that he would cost upwards of 100m. At the money he got for 6 years I would have been ok with it but IMO he is still a complimentary piece and not a superstar or even all star. You also have to remember Philly isn’t seen as a great destination to players right now.

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            3. I understand what he meant, Eric. I’m taking it from the position if Strasburg had been positioned in the draft as he was, had done what he did in his first and or second season of mostly minors and a little time in Washington, and was at that stage today (i.e. 2011 Strasburg) you don’t get him straight-up for today’s Hamels. Going further from the Washington roster, you also don’t get 2010 Jordan Zimmerman straight up for today’s Hamels, let alone expecting other prospects. That the baseball valuation of guys viewed as ‘can’t miss’ with 6 years of team control ahead of them. Washington is an interesting roster to discuss this point. You also don’t get 2005 Ryan Zimmerman any time including right after he signs his first contract straight up for today’s Hamels. Nor do you get 2012 Anthony Rendon. You get the picture, that’s 4 guys just on Washington. How did Washington get these guys? Despite what was said above about draft position not mattering in baseball, Washington got these guys by finishing very close to last the prior season. That’s also how the Phillies got Crawford and Nola, rather than another Larry Green Jr. — they finished in the bottom third of baseball two years in a row. We got Pat Burrell by being awful. Should have had J. D. Drew as well. Even in baseball, there is a big talent acquisition advantage in finishing in the bottom 3. That’s the consolation we should be looking forward to for the Phillies stinking in 2015.

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    2. It’s not like we had a good OF last year or in 2013. We’re rebuilding. It doesn’t matter. 2015 is the year to try some younger guys and find out who fits. Seeing what Byrd can do in his age 37 season really doesn’t help the team at all.

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      1. Sorry A1. You think what is going on is rebuilding. I don’t. Blowing up the team because you do not have a more creative way of rebuilding than throwing in the towel for several years in hopes that you get some good players from prospects down the line. Than when you get one…like Thad Young (sixers), you trade him because your in decades of rebuilding. Movement for movements sake is not rebuilding its buying time and I guess its worked for now since so many folks here at least are happy with what’s going on. We’ll see where we are after a miserable couple years.

        Again sorry to be a downer but that is all that this is producing in me. I have been a Phillies phan for over 50 years and I have to much history to get excited about a bunch of propects.

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      3. I really am tired of peoples cuts, like “Ray of sunshine” and “Delusional”
        I mean how are comments like that suppose to make me “a Ray of Sunshine.”

        A1 its not delusional to say the same thing you basically said. Don’t get rid of Hamels unless you get something worth it. My Strasburg and Trout comments were “as prospects”, not after they proved themselves in the majors. Come on guys, even when I agree with some of you and tell you, yes Tomas is a good fit, and than you can trade a Byrd and not miss his bat, etc These are things you are saying as well.

        yes I don’t agree with just gathering a flock of propects as the best way to build the team but because I am not taking the popular view on this site, there is no reason to be condescending.

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        1. The reason you’re getting bashed is because you’re coming across like an ass. You don’t have sound logic behind your opinions, you’ve had several of the more knowledgeable posters here try and address your assertions directly, and you just keep plowing ahead with either useless drivel, arrogance, or irrational opinions.

          I don’t think anyone here has a problem engaging in intelligent and thoughtful conversation, but you’ve been anything but.

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          1. Actually buddy, you are. You’re incredibly disrespectful based on nothing, and for real who exactly has proven themselves knowledgeable? Who says you have sound logic behind your opinions? “Drivel, arrogance, or irrational opinions”? Just who do you think you are that makes you think your own don’t stink?

            I could say the exact same about you, but you’re so concerned with throwing around generic, juvenile insults and digs that it doesn’t matter.

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            1. Unlike the two of you, I’ve been on this site for 5-6 years now and there’s a long history of my non-arrogant and thoughtful posts. Every now and then, we get people like you, and eventually… you’ll go away. Troll on, I’m done.

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            2. I’ve been on this site since 2007. Shut it, kid. You can go back and find my comments if you don’t believe me. You’re a bandwagon jumper who came in after the Phillies won the World Series. I’ve seen plenty of your arrogance and non-thoughtful posts, and posters like you are exactly why I stopped commenting here.

              Keep running your mouth because it’s all you do, then you have the nerve to call others who you disrespected constantly unprovoked “trolls”.

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            1. Actually I have been on this site for 4-5 years, I have participated under other names done the top 30’s etc. I was born in Philly, lived in Chalfont and Pennsburg and now live up near the Cabellas above Reading and next to Allentown. I have been following all the minors teams, go to Reading and Iron Pigs games regularly and followed the Phillies since 1964. I have a graduate degree from Lehigh University in Chemical engineering and I am not going away anytime soon no matter how badly folks ridicule me.

              I simply disagree with saying we are not going to even try and compete for 2-3 years, trying to get younger for the sake of getting younger, building up a farm system that has not done a good job of evaluating or developing talent, etc, etc.

              Sorry but, I have done my best to tell you how I would have grown the team differently in hopes of some good dialogue. Some of you get it, some just seem to have be condescending.

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            3. @Rem; No problem. I’m from a working class area right near Philly, been following the Phillies my whole life, along with every other major team we have. I’m far from stupid and nobody who actually knows me thinks I am. I chose my name back in 2007 to distinguish myself from the bandwagon jumpers who came in around 2007 and were always acting like “experts”.

              I’m not about to let somebody bully somebody else and put himself on a pedestal without proving why he is above that person. I don’t care who else puts up with it. It’s not acceptable behavior, and it’s completely unnecessary.

              Those of us who have followed this team through thick and thin have every right to voice our opinion.

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            4. That’s downright strange, RemHoward. I also follow both the Reading team for decades and now also Allentown and have followed Phillies minor league stats since the mid-1960s. My dad died two years ago, but he, my brother, and I drove to Reading games since the 1970s. I also have a graduate degree in chemical engineering from Lehigh. Small world. But… I still have to tell you, there was never a time from the day he was drafted that you could have gotten Strasburg, let alone other prospect(s) in addition for today’s Hamels. The sure-thing prospect Strasburg was worth THAT much. So are several of the top prospects in the minors today. They generally are guys that you have no shot at drafting unless you finish in the bottom 3 or at least bottom 5. Doesn’t mean you can’t find a Howard or Utley later in the draft, but they weren’t ‘sure things’ they were guys who needed to fix a weakness in their game, and frankly we did really well to draft them where we did, as we did with Rollins and Rolen.

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            5. Now hopefully that’s the end of that drama and we can all go back to talking about what we think the Phillies should do, who we think they can get, who is a “bum”, etc haha

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            6. @allentown1: I think that if people stop being disrespectful, they’d find we all have a lot more in common with each other than you might think. The problem has always been the disrespectful bandwagon jumpers, even at the Flyers games now (like that disgrace who punched a New York fan from multiple seats over at Game 6 of the Rangers series).

              I have to say, I would have LOVED to have seen a game at Shibe, even in the 70s, or been able to see that Whiz Kids team.

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            7. By the way, one of my favorite moments as a Phillies fan is still that Sunday game where they were down 8 or something runs going into the Top of the 9th against the Marlins back when Todd Jones was still a legitimate closer and they scored 9 or 10 to take the lead and win. Still one of the most impressive comeback victories I’ve ever seen.

              Do you remember how there was such a controversy over Padilla starting instead of Gavin Floyd back in like ’05? I will take this situation over that one any day of the week haha

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            8. Alright, well we can toss 3 into the hat, in my case architectural engineering at Drexel, grew up in Montgomery county went to valley forge military academy and became a fan in 1988 give or take. Started with news papers and baseball cards, went to the 93′ WS. Though I’m in commercial real estate in New York now. I think the fundemental disagreement here is less about player evaluations and more about the prospects for the next 2-3 years. I think we all agree that it didn’t have to be this way, but in light of the GM decisions over the last 3-4 years(including not signing recent Cubans) I just don’t believe there is any viable alternative over the next few years to contend. Believe me, if I really thought there was another path, I’d be all for it.

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        2. See what I wrote above. It’s delusional, because even as a prospect, which he was for less than a year, Strasburg was worth more than today’s Hamels. Like it or not, as LarryM says that certainly is the baseball valuation system. Take a sort of equivalent guy today. You’ll not get Buxton even up for Hamels.

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          1. Oh I completely agree with that, 100%. Strasburg was said to be the most MLB ready pitcher drafted in history.

            I wonder if there’s a legitimate correlation with MLB-ready pitchers like Strasburg, Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, etc, and injury-ridden careers. If so, that should serve as a warning to all young pitchers in my opinion.

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            1. Things happen, though, even to close-to-sure prospects, and hopefully a lot of effort continues to be taken to not stress young bodies too early. Remember when we traded away our future by including Drabek as a trade chip?

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            2. @iheartPP: Well look at how often TJ is happening these days. It’s crazy.

              This isn’t baseball obviously but I was watching a video I got linked to on youtube of this 15 or 16 year old basketball player and the kid was doing some very advanced pro training (of course he has a personal pro trainer, seems they all do these days), and it kind of opened my eyes as to why so many young athletes are getting hurt so often these days. We already know about just how hard baseball players are pushing their bodies in high school these days but it’s every sport now, and it’s causing a lot of these kids to peak early and then decline or get injured very young. It’s happening across the board, the same way it does in football and soccer, where kids are pushed hard very young.

              We don’t think about it because we’re not the ones putting in the work and playing but that all takes a huge toll on an athlete’s body. I think right now sports is pushing right up against the edge of what an athlete’s body is capable of, and that’s a dangerous thing. It’s one thing when you have a kid like an Aaron Nola who was a junior in college before getting drafted but when you have a Stephen Strasburg or especially a Kerry Wood (or now Shane Watson I guess for us or even Biddle), that seems to be a real problem. I think position players won’t suffer as much from it but young pitchers are being pushed way too hard way too young.

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          2. A1, you sound like a good guy, but you have to let the Strasburg thing go. I simply just meant we should get some really good can’t miss prospects Hamels that could help the team in the next year or soon….if we trade him. Otherwise I say hold on to him. I was not saying that we should try and Strasburg

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            1. TruePhan I can’t remember the name of the park in Philly and don’t remember the year but sometime between 64 and 67 I saw the Phillies and the back of people heads (I was like 5 or 6 years old) in an old Philly ball park that just had benches for seats. I think Bunning was pitching for the Phils but what I remember the most was Dick Allen hitting a couple moon shots in the game. The crowd just went nuts. What a thrill.

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            2. Fine. As I said above, I am in no rush to trade Hamels. He is still youngish, still at the top of his game, and likely to be able to help us 4-5 years from now. Unless we get a very good prospect plus lesser, I don’t trade him. Where I part company with many is in accepting that you just won’t get a Buxton or a Bryant or a Betts. You won’t get the modern minor league pitching equivalent of Strasburg, although as someone else said above, Strasburg was just about unique. If I can get Swihart, Castillo, Owens, Devers from Boston, I’m thrilled. I do the deal without Devers. To me, it is the 35+ guys we need to unload for the best prospects we can get, either now or at the trade deadline. There is no way they are a part of the next winning Phillies team. It seemed we were offered (it was never said what, exactly?) reasonable prospect value by Seattle for Byrd at the trade deadline. I say that, because RAJ was asking a lot for everyone, and that deal advanced far enough for the question of Byrd waiving the option to be the hurdle that needed to be over-come. I think the Phillies erred in not giving however much $ was needed to buy out that option (probably around $4 mill). I don’t know if they could have gotten anything for Burnett at the deadline, but they should have really pushed it.

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            3. It was called Connie Mack stadium at the time. It was same location and I think rebuilt Shibe park. Replaced by Veteran’s Stadium in 1970.

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            5. TruePhan: I’m a strength and conditioning coach (also a the pitching coach for my towns HS and legion team, played at the D1 level, was average at best for that competition level) that works with baseball players, pitchers being my main focus. I disagree with your comment, if an athlete has a good strength and conditioning coach who knows what he’s doing he will actually help prevent injuries and keep his player healthy now AND long term. I can somewhat agree that we try and help out player “peak” but it’s their physical peak that we are trying to attain which is relative to their age.

              Btw if anyone wants to check out local (Tri State Area) players who are going to be future high draft picks check out Jason Groome and Stephen DeBoskey. Both are High School kids from Jersey. Groome will be a Jr in high school and if he was draft eligible he would be a 1st or 2nd round pick. When he is eligible he will be a top 5 pick. You can quote me on that.

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          3. I hear ya Supra, and at this point your right with the above analogy, after the team said they were not going to compete for 2 or 3 years. Since they disrespected there veterans, not only does any ball player want to be part of the team, but everyone on the team wants to be traded. I would to. There is no other way but to hope and pray for a miracle. I just think we could have done things differently with quicker results had we not thrown in the towel and let everyone know it. We took what little respect and value there was in the team and completely trashed it.

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            1. Ya I thought it was Connie Mack but when I was 5 or 6 I had no clue 😉 Is that the same area where a church (or should I say a religious complex because its huge and does not look like a church) is now standing?

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            2. @Rem: Yeah, it’s the same stadium, just renamed after Connie Mack in his honor. It was the original steel stadium, built before what people try to label “the original” (Fenway) but it was built in the complete wrong place and surrounded by industrial properties in parts. I would have loved to have even just seen that baby from the street in its prime.

              Damn the A’s.

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            3. Also I don’t know that it’s fair to say that we should have moved Byrd to Seattle and pushed for AJ to be traded. Don’t get me wrong I def would have liked to see them be moved but we just don’t know how the conversations went which is especially true with RAJ. If nothing can be said about him the one thing that can is that he keeps his cards close to him. I think that if he has any offers with even a little value he would have made the moves but hey that’s just my opinion.

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          4. Allentown – Swihart, Castillo, and Owens for Hamels is equal to or better than three top prospects. Throw in Devers or Margot, that’s quite a haul. I think that most of the delusional fans would sign off on that one. And you’re not even sending cash.

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            2. Can we stop the delusional comments? Until a player becomes a proven commodity we are all delusional by most peoples use of the word on this site. Heck to be a Phuture Phillies Phan at this point we must be delusional. So again stop the condescending terms and just talk baseball If you disagree with someone its fine to just say so without having to be condesending

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            3. RemHoward – You missed something along the way. I am proud to say that I am one of the delusional fans.

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    1. A little surprised to hear they have interest in Wood. He had a bad year last year and the only thing I can think of is maybe they would try to buy low and try to flip him if he had a good first half. Or maybe they just want to use him as an innings eater next season since the rotation is thin. I believe that article also said they had interest in Castillo. He would probably mean Ruiz would be getting traded.

      They must have a lot of confidence Herrera can play CF if they are going to trade Revere. Should be interesting to see how this pans out. I think we got to give the FO some credit so far because they have gotten creative to bring in some young talent and more moves are likely to come.

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      1. Wood is exactly the type of pitcher the Phillies should target and if they could get him for Revere I would be tripping over myself to pull the trigger. Wood is a good bounce back candidate as there are a number of positives in his peripherals despite the down year. If he bounces back, he could be moved for a valuable piece or two at the deadline. And if he doesn’t, he should at least give us 180 innings which is something this team needs right now. The last thing I want is for the Phils to find themselves in position where they need to overuse a young bullpen

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        1. I am very confused. wood imo he stinks. I have seen him numerous times he is a hitting machine. but revere has no respect mostly based on his lack of power and obp. But a guy like revere can steal a base hits 300 just think he is worth more than a batting practice pitcher.

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          1. In Woods career he has thrown 738.1 IP giving up 689 hits. So less hits then innings pitched or 8.9 hits per 9. To give a comparison Cliff Lee’s hits per 9 is 8.8 and Hamels is 8.0. How is Wood a hitting machine?

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            2. WHIP of 1.3, HR/9 of 1 and BB/9 of 3…pitching in Chicago…priceless.
              ’12 and ’13 Cubbies may have let him down a bit.
              ’14….he just threw in the towel.

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            3. I think he meant offensively. In that respect, he would be an upgrade for Revere in CF and could still pitch every 5th day. He’d probably OPS better than Revere – no joke.

              Still, anonymous is missing my point. Wood is a prime bounce back candidate and his salary could be attractive at next year’s deadline. Revere is not a long term answer in CF or any other outfield position for that matter. On a playoff team he’s a 4th OF’er at best

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      2. I think they have a lot of confidence that Revere can’t play CF and are willing to experiment in the hope of finding better. See TruePhan below on guys traded a second time. The Phillies are the second team who have concluded that Revere simply isn’t a satisfactory defensive CF. When you start talking about a ‘solution’ such as moving as weak a bat as Revere’s to LF, in order to solve your CF problem, you know you have a very serious problem. Revere has played as much as he has for the Phillies, because the Phillies lacked an alternative. They even tried Hernandez and Mayberry as CF.

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    2. You know, I’m beginning to think that there’s a rule about the first team to trade for a guy as a major leaguer versus the second team. It seems like the first team to trade for a young player (especially a pitcher) gets his best years and then the second team to trade for him gets his over-the-hill years and is left holding the bag. There are obviously exceptions to this, but I think this rule points out exactly why the Phillies are in the spot they’re in. The Nationals, the Cubs, the Tigers, the Red Sox…. all of these smarter teams trade for a guy who is just below his peak and has been with one team his whole career. They get the player’s best years and then flip him to a team that can’t see the inevitable coming. I think Travis Wood is another one of those examples but I hope I’m wrong on that.

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      1. I think you are correct. In addition to the age vs performance and age vs cost trends in baseball, there is the added factor that teams trade players for a reason. That reason is often that for whatever reason they don’t want to have that guy at his current price (attitude, they no of lingering health issues, they see the early signs of performance decline, they see the accumulation of small examples of bad play/approach that an outside evaluator may miss).

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        1. Yeah I flat out would not trade Revere for Wood straight up. A guy who hit .300 and stole 49 bases last season and had a high batting average in his years with the Twins and is still young has a lot more value than a guy who is coming off a down year, has never really cemented himself as upper echelon (moreso been a potential kind of guy) and is coming off a bad year. That’s taking a huge risk, when you can probably get a lot more potential back that is at least young for a guy like Revere.

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          1. It’s a very, very hallow .300 batting average.

            He hit .300 with a .325 on base percentage.

            For a comparison, Jimmy Rollins hit .243 and had a .324 on base.

            If Revere could walk he would be a very valuable lead off guy in left field. The problem is his only value comes from his ability to hit singles and steal bases. He can’t play center field.

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  37. I remember conniemack stadium. 50 cents for bleacher seats. best sausage sandwich right outside the park. my dad would stop get a sandwich and beer. Had metal columns if you had a seat near you couldn’t see the batter. the wall was the best. and a tower in right center. Had to walk from subway at broad to 33rd street if I remember right. one night Big left hand batter with power McCovey hit a shot over the tower about 5oo feet and next inning Richie does the same from right side, he used to hit those shots to left, on the roof, there were ad signs, I Was there in 64 in left field, saw torre hit a shot during the losing streak and split the wood seat in left field upper deck , hardest ball I ever seen hit. The reason they moved for one, was if you parked, people would tell you five dollars to watch you car on street. or they slash your tires, neighborhood got bad. and then they move to spot that used to be stadium drive in on broad and Patterson.

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    1. Got my one and only baseball there in ’62….foul ball off the bat of a Cub, George Altman. And I wasn’t even in a seat….I was on one of those ramps coming up from the nasty concourse to the seating area and the ball went right into my hands thru the hands of people stretching over the ramp. Weird way of getting it.

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      1. Romus I Just heard they will be showing the 2008 and 1980 teams world series on big screen this year at park. They don’t feel people will come to see this team.

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          1. I was leaving the store and a guy had on a Phillies world championship jacket 1980-2008 so I figure we win in 2018 cause it has a 08 in it. so we are only 3 years away don’t worry be happy.

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            1. rocco….get yourself a Phillies jacket and inscribed on it Phillies 2018 World Champions and wear it for the next three years around Philly…create some positive waves in negadelphia.

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  38. Listen, this debate about whether or not we should trade away veterans is completely inconsequential. There is no debate to be had. Any GM concerned about the long term health of the roster would have begun this process 2 years ago. The only reason the Phils have not is that they are attempting to placate uneducated fans. When attempting to rebuild a roster for any professional sports team, what is important is to add as many possible future players as possible. In baseball, this can only come in the form of prospects as draft picks are not tradeable. The enormously high failure rate for baseball prospects unequivocally dictates that teams need to stockpile as many as possible in effort to mitigate the failure rate.

    There are a few ways to aquire additional prospects other than the draft. There is the international market, the minor league free agent market, the rule 5 draft, and trades. By far the most effective of these methods are the international market and veteran trades. The Phils should be looking to clear salary and gain assets (prospects) through trades. The idea that the fan base will continue to attend games regularly because they want to see an aging core of veteran players that do not win is pure folley as proven by the steep decline in ticket sales the last two seasons. A winning team cures all ticket sales issues and this team will not win before utley/ruiz/lee etc…retire.

    The only logical course of action is to trade any and every player over the age of 25 so that they can stockpile as many prospects as possible. The more decent prospects in the pool, the better chances the Phils have of hitting on a few of them. It’s not rocket surgery, it’s major league general managing 101

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    1. This is particularly true with the absolute dearth of upper level pitching in the Phillies system.

      I disagree done with your trade everyone over 25 comment. To me you trade anyone who yiu don’t forsee as contributors in 3 years time. Hamel’s fits into that category which is why you only trade him in the right deal.

      Personally I wouldn’t trade Brown now either. Since this will be a lost season anyway might as well give him one more season to see if he comes around. I personally doubt it but it’s worth the chance since he has little value at the moment.

      Ruiz is another interesting case. He could net a solid return if the Phillies eat salary but has some value in working with and helping to develop a new staff.

      Paps is of course untradeable right now

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    3. Trading veterans is not what is being debated here. What’s being debated here is the second part of what you’re saying, that you should trade everybody who is over 25. I also don’t see why you have to talk like there’s no discussion or debate when there clearly is or say “it’s not rocket surgery, it’s major league general managing 101” when in reality plenty of MLB teams (successful ones) disagree with you completely on not having any veterans on their team.

      Pretty much every move the Phillies have made since trading for Halladay was to placate uneducated “fans” as well as the “writers” who pander to those bandwagon jumpers. Trading for Halladay as if their lives depended on it rather than playing hardball with Toronto, hyping up Dom Brown and keeping him over Taylor, signing Papelbon, signing Mike Adams, trading for Michael Young, signing Burnett, and of course keeping the aging veterans on the team way longer than they should have such as Ruiz. They’re doing the exact same thing now, when every bandwagon jumper is screaming for them to “tear it down” as if you have to trade every player, just like those idiots screamed for with the Sixers for almost a decade.

      Also, it is not wise to trade everybody who is over 25 just based on age. Werth was like 28 or something when we signed him, and look how good he was for us.

      Majority opinion is not always correct. Most often it is the complete opposite of correct.

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      1. The idea is to gather as many prospects as possible because they are such a crapshoot. I’m not saying that winning teams can’t have a percentage of veterans but this is not a winning team. Anyone over the age of 25 right now will, in all likelihood, be in or approaching decline by the time the Phillies are ready to contend so the logical move is to trade them now while we can maximize their value.

        This IS general managing 101. You build through the minors, clear payroll and sign veterans to fill in the gaps where you have no good young players but you only do that once you have a solid core that you believe you can win with.

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        1. Okay so in a 150+ game season where nothing happens the way it’s supposed to on paper, you want to throw in the towel and say the team can’t win? You want to trade every guy over 25 just to get as many prospects as possible, when most prospects don’t actually pan out? You want to sign no proven players, even if it’s a smart signing, and have nothing but prospects? Do you hear how that sounds? That is an awful MLB team. No MLB team has zero veterans because it makes no sense. Only stupid teams like the Astros and Marlins fully tear down their team that way, and even they don’t have zero veterans.

          Actually, it isn’t. Any GM who did that would be fired.

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          1. Yes I hear how that sounds. It sounds like a desperate team in a desperate situation tearing down and rebuilding. I’m sorry that you can’t see the forest through the trees but this team cannot win by signing a couple of mid to low level free agents…or were you not watching the last 3 years?

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            1. I agree anon That is what I am trying to say. You need prospects, FA’s, IFA’s. To build. I agree it starts on the farm, but you need to have a good farm system before you go hog wild on prospects, and the Phillies need massive change in their talent evaluation process. It has been broke for nearly a decade.

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      2. I don’t think anyone is saying “trade anyone over 28” that doesn’t make much sense, should we trade Diekman? Bc I’m pretty sure he’s 27 years old. Now what IS being said is to trade away (or attempt to) move players who won’t be around when it’s time to compete (2017-2018), examples would be Byrd, Ruiz, Papelbon, Utley and you COULD argue Hamels but more so bc of the return that he could get. That is the message and it’s a message that has valid points to it.

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        1. Wow I take that back, I missed the actually statement “trade away anyone over 25 bc they will likely be in decline yada yada yada”

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      3. I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with. Every single thing you just said about the Rube is completely true and I agree with every word. Are you arguing to keep Dom Brown and Ben Revere? Darrin Ruf? Jake Diekman?

        If you can actually get anything for this gaggle then get it.

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    4. “The only logical course of action is to trade any and every player over the age of 25 so that they can stockpile as many prospects as possible. The more decent prospects in the pool, the better chances the Phils have of hitting on a few of them. It’s not rocket surgery, it’s major league general managing 101”

      And what GM’s have been trading every player over age 25 and have been a top market tem over the years?

      “Listen, this debate about whether or not we should trade away veterans is completely inconsequential. There is no debate to be had. ”

      1) No one is debating that we should trade veterans. I am debating that trading away anybody just for prospects when we have not done a good job of developing them in recent years is a concern. We need to overhaul the farm system development group! We need to overhaul the people who evaluate, trade, and target prospects!! Than what we are doing now makes more sense.

      2) Yes I am sad to see folks like Rollins, Utley, Hamels, Chooch go but mainly because the represent and era and time where we did do a good job of evaluating prospects and developing them and they are proof of that.

      I just don’t trust the Phillies talent evaluaters and developers to do what most people on this site want to do. That until they change their talent evauaters and developers we will not be seeing much come up out of system other than Asche’s, DeFratus’s and Buchanans.

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      1. Well I guess you’re just screwed. It’s not possible to build a winning team from the FA market. If you can’t hope for the minor league system to restock the team, then you have no hope at all imo

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        1. Again, I don’t think you can do it just from MLB free agents. It needs to be everything including the farm. I just think our farm system (talent evaluation, development, etc) needs to be upgraded if you are putting all your marbles there.

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      2. You’ll get no argument here. Phillies management is worse than the Flyers and that’s really saying something.

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  39. anonymous, exactly right. i saw a few of Richie’s shots over the Coke sign on the left field roof. and correct again, the first time my dad took me to connie mack we parked on the street and he then gave a few young boys some money. when we got to the stadium i asked him why he did that. he said that they watch the car during the game. also remember when driving down the street to get to the stadium the number of cars parked with tires off and looking like they couldn’t be moved. as i have mentioned before, the first glimpse of the inside of connie mack was walking up the ramp on the third base side first level and seeing the bright been grass and the huge Ballentine Beer scoreboard in right field. a scene that will be forever saved in my brain. would love to see the phils relevant again soon.

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    1. Ya, gmwannabe, don’t know if anon posted about Richie’s shots but I got to see them as well at the park. Unfortunately it was many lean years until the late 70’s, and than again from the mid 80’s (except 93) 2000’s. I just hope I see another contender by the end of this decade. Its not a lot of fun right now to be a philly phan. The Eagles have been either awful or a big tease since 1960. Thats why most of us love the Dallas rivalry. Its like our mini super bowl. I remember 1980, we were so thrilled that we beat Dallas in the playoffs that the Raiders were anti climatic. Go eagles!!!!!!

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  41. I know this isn’t a favorable proposal but I think Chase Utley is a terrific fit for the Washington Nationals. Ruben would need to have a very large pair to pull this off.

    Washington has had the best team (on paper) in baseball twice and has been knocked out of the first round both times. They have a need for a left handed bat that can hit somewhere 2-6 in a line up after they lost LaRoche, and need first base depth. Chase solves both problems.

    Washington also has a deep farm system. Chase isn’t getting a top prospect at this point but the Nationals have outfielders that saw Major League time last year and pitchers that could be valuable as well.

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    1. I don’t think the best, highest value, fit for Chase is one that has him playing 1B. He would have to learn a new position and you lose his defensive value at 2B. If the goal is to spare his legs, then the correct move is to part-time DH. As we saw with Thome, playing 1B became too physically taxing and a move to DH unleashed his bat and extended his career. The same could happen to Utley — part 2B, part DH with the DH percentage gradually increasing over the years. That argues that the ideal fit is in the AL, if a partial move off 2B is required. The demands of playing 1B are under-rated. Also, height matters there.

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  42. In regards to Utley…Halo’s may have a need for him..
    Jerry Dipoto will have to decide if he is comfortable with former Rockie Rutledge at 2nd.
    .

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  43. As of right now here’s the Phillies choices for ss Balcano, Herandez, Galvis or maybe the sign a vet for 2 yr contact .which one do you want ?

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      1. Agreed. Rube should try to sign a few reclamation projects in hopes he can get something for them at the deadline.

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      3. John – had a similar thought the other day. Could come cheap and on a 1yr deal for a player who was an all-star in 2013

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    2. Balcano….a new Cuban sensation?
      Is he a a comp-cross power guy between the likes of Steve Balboni and Robinson Cano?

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    3. I would pick Freddie Galvis as he would be the best defensive SS and he could hit around .235 but without the walks. Might as well see what we have in Galvis before we contend again.

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  44. See when you trade you are suppose to a replacement ready . J roll was rated 5 best ss last yr, Crawford a least 2 yrs away and theirs nobody to bridge the gap.
    I don’t think Galvis can do a full yr. They Need to get Howard’s, paps and Lee contacts off the books. I agree they have to start signing international talent.

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    1. They do sign multiple La/international talent…….but what kind of talent do you get for a miserly, frugal, pennypinching, scroogelike amount of $50K…..while the Yankees (approx $14M in 2014 for 10 of the top 30 international guys) and the Cubbies (approx $10M plus in 2013) go out and sign the cream of the crop.
      For their credit…the Phillies will usually sign one ,,,,maybe two, $500K plus guys a year of late. But will they ever do a Cubs/Yankees/Rangers/Braves/Red Sox venture….never. Now those teams in 3/4 years will have top ten farm systems, and some already.
      Small market teams do and think like small market businesses…Sir William.

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  45. Mark Tuesday, August 4th on your Phillies calendars.
    Jimmy returns.
    Jimmy will get a standing ‘o’….and it may be one of those 5 minute versions.

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  46. Ya, we know what we got in Galvis a utility infielder who plays good defense but little to no offensive skills. We need to find someone to fill the gap until Crawford hopefully makes it. Right now there is nobody that we have who will do anything remotely near Rollins with offensive weapons. We’ll see if the prospects (who ever they are) we get amount to anything. Hope its worth a couple years of yawn offense from the shortstop position in Philly.

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    1. I can live with Freddy at shortstop for 2015 and perhaps a half-or-so portion of 2016.
      I will be even more happier if they decide to hit him in the 8th hole, in essence, that is where I can see his potentially undesirable lack of production ‘slash’ effect is minimized. The plus he may not incur any pressure from there and could offensively surprise to some degree.

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      1. Hmmm. Ya the problem is what they have from 1 – 7 hitters now 😉 This team won in 2007 – 2008 mainly by bashing and dashing with phenominal years from Cole and Lidge in 2008. They knew they did not have good consistent 300 type hitters so they tried to supplement with great pitching. Unfortunately the 2, 3, and 4 four aces of 2009 – 2011 just could not hold up for very long, and than when howard blew his tendon…that unknowingly (hind sight being 20/20) signaled the beginning of the end.

        1-7 is a big problem now.

        1) Revere – Great speed and decent hitter but so far he needs to learn to take pitches better and get on base more, since unlike Rollins he has no power. He would be serviceable had we a true #2 hitter who could move him a long or a decent 3, 4, 5 combo behind him.

        2) We have not had a true 2 hole hitter since? I mean Victorino did a good job there as a dash and bash but he was not a true 2. Ruis does ok but again not an ideal 2. Was thinking maybe Utley if they could find a 3, 4, 5

        3)Utley – you like him at the top of the order because of his hustle and passion but the team could really use a strong 3.

        4) ????????? – Tomas would have been nice here, assuming he lives up to the hype. This and #3 hitters are the hardest to find for obvious reasons.

        5) Byrd is serviceable here if he stays, but I would trade him at this point for….yes prospects 😉

        6) and 7) Well we have tons of maybes here; Brown, Ruf, Howard, Franco, Asche, so on and so forth. Unfortunately you don’t have much of a team with just 6-8 hitters.

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    1. This is what writers write when the team gives them nothing else interesting to write about. Let’s take a sort of odd (and fairly irrelevant) coincidence and turn it into a column.

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      1. Ya, while we wait to hear some Phillies news. Not sure if the Eagles are going far the rest of the year. Flyers look iffy at best. And the Sixers are fulfilling there 20 year run to oblivion. Just thought it was interesting in view of our conversations.

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    1. The plan is simple. Don’t F— up. The best thing about the plan is they only have one player, Hamels, that they can F— up with. I wouldn’t trade Hamels for any less than 3 prospects with a 75% chance of making a splash in the big leagues. Simple and done. Now for the part about when do the Phillies compete again, I’d have to say a few more top 10 draft picks, a few high profile LA signings and maybe a Cuban or Japanese signing. If you’ve tried to do the math on your fingers then maybe you should take your socks off and use your toes too.

      I’ve been saying for quite some time that Amaro will not rebuild this franchise but bringing in a new GM right now is stupid. Let Amaro unwind the mess the Phils have and let the next GM start with a clean slate. Let the draft guys and the talent evaluators do their job. If the prospects are coming through the pipeline and a FA or two can jump start the team, that’s when the magic is back. Let’s hope is doesn’t get too dark before it goes completely black.

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    1. With LAD bringing on B McCarthy looks like Hamels will not be a Dodger.
      I guess he stays a Phillie until at least July, unless the Sox decide they need more then a full hand of deuces and threes.

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  51. A few thoughts I had about the recent past and how it relates to building a WS contender

    Since the Giants won their first of 3 championships in 2010 the team that leads the majors in wins is the Yankees and they have 0 championships and 0 appearances in that span. They spent pretty big in FA during that same period.

    Other notable teams ranking highest in total wins without a WS appearance the Braves rank 3rd and the Rays rank 5th.

    In that span 4 of the 5 years the 2 teams with the most wins in that season did not even make it to the WS. 2013 was the only year where the team with the best record in each league went.

    In that span the only team to lose a WS and then get back the next year was TX. Each year in that span the loser always lost more games in the following year (again TX the lone exception)

    The Red Sox in 13 and Giants in 14 went from Sub .500 records the season prior to champions. I’m talking pretty bad too at 69 and 76 respectively.

    The top 3 oldest teams in baseball 2014: Red Sox, Phillies and Yankees did not make the playoffs. In rank of losses it went 91-89-78. The oldest team to make the playoffs was the Dodgers they were 4th oldest. The WS Champion Giants were 6th Oldest.

    Conversely the 2 youngest teams were the Astros then Marlins. with 92 then 85 losses.

    The youngest team to make the playoffs was the Nats…would you have guessed they were almost a full year younger than the Royals. The Nats were 4th youngest team in MLB.

    I have to work on a formula that would allow me to view FA $’s spent by season. Would be interesting to analyze those figures over the last 5 seasons as well.

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      1. Sorry, Anon….I just saw it and thought I’d post it quick in case it did not get a separate post for a while. Really don’t have a lot of time on here during work 😉

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  54. You guys probably don’t need to worry about who is playing SS in 2015. It will be Galvis getting his shot. Maybe he’ll surprise and we’ll have an asset. More than likely, he’ll hit little but field well and hold the position warm until mid 2016 when Crawford comes up. This team is not trying to compete this year and are not going to spend lots of money. There’s a good chance that Ruf ends up as our 1B after a Howard trade. I don’t think Utley played well enough in the 2nd half last year to get traded now so he’ll be back at 2B, unless they get a 2B in trade which could move him to 1B. Who knows if Revere will be back? I expect Herrera to make the team and I think they’ll give him a shot in spring training to win a starting CF job if Revere is gone. The Phillies had so many nondescript bad players in the 70s. It feels like we’re going back to the 70s for two years at least.

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    2. BA’s Josh Norris on Odubel Herrera:
      ” I mean, we don’t even know if he’ll be with the team out of spring training yet. If he does stick, I can imagine him as a utility guy a la Michael Martinez with a better bat”

      ………all my hopes are dashed that he would come in and displace Benny in CF …….your kidding, ‘a guy a la Mini Mart…oh no!

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      1. Hopefully he mean that Herrera will play a utility role as a Rule 5 draftee similar to Michael Martinez after his Rule 5 selection, and not anything about Herrera’s long term prospects. Mini Mart was 27 was we picked him and was coming off a decent year at AAA, but didn’t have a particularly distinguished minor league career. I don’t know much about Herrera, but he definitely strikes me as much more of a prospect.

        If you look at it that way, Martinez with a better bat (which could mean just about anything) would be a perfectly acceptable season for a 22 year old who hasn’t even played a full season in AA yet.

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  55. Murry remember those teams. Bobby wine at short, Taylor at second, Callison . Gonzalez and Covington. the catcher who always hit into double plays. the terrible pitching. same now. asche, at third. galvis, Utley howard, awful so bad. and it wont get better for years. when your baseball team stinks, its really terrible cause the season is so long. and you read every day how bad they are, makes you sick to read paper or internet/

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    2. You’re back in the sixties and in the 70s it was Bowa so I guess I mean the 80s when it was Steve Jeltz, Luis Aguayo, and Dickie Thon (Ivan Dejesus was actually decent). Lots of lean years continued. In the 90s it was Alex Arias, Juan Bell, Mike Benjamin, Rod Booker, Kevin Elster, Joe Milette, Dale Sveum, and one good year from Kevin Stocker (whose best contribution besides 1993 was when they traded him). Guys, it was Bowa, then many ugly years and then finally Rollins. It will again be ugly while we wait for JP but hopefully it won’t be that long. ETA of June 2016…..

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  56. Alex Rios is set to sign with the KC Royals now so all the Free Agent OF’s are signed, The trade market should open up for Marlon Byrd and others.

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  57. With Morse and Rios signing, Byrd will be in play soon and his salary is not that high compared to the other guys.

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    1. From everything I’ve read, it appears to me that Eflin has more upside than Lee. He pitched to a 3.8 ERA last year in the California league as a 20 year old. That’s an awesome showing at that age in that league. It sounds like both he and Windle pitch in the low 90s but touch higher and both are projected as mid-rotation starters, unlike Pettibone who is a 4/5. MLB has Efline and Windle listed as the Phillies’ 5th and 6th best prospects ahead of Biddle – again, that’s an enormous haul in a trade for a 36 year old shortstop on the last year of his contract. The trade has an opportunity to be a real coup. Now we need more of that. Certainly, the Phillies are restocking their pitching at all levels in a very serious way – on the mound side of things, I think they are doing a very, very good job of rebuilding thus far.

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      1. Jim Callis, former executive editor of Baseball America and current MLB.com senior writer, labeled Eflin and Windle as two of the top 5 prospects traded at the Winter Meetings; additionally, he wrote that both are superior to Jesse Biddle.

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