Box Score Recap – 6/29/2013

Box Score Recap

Pretty nice bounce-back game from Hoby Milner – 2R on 7H 1BB and 5K in 7 IP, after a couple bad performances in a row. Jesse Biddle slogged his way through giving up 2R on 9H 2BB and 2K over 6IP. Threw just 57% strikes. Cesar Hernandez with 4 hits, Cody Asche with 2 including a double, and Cameron Rupp with his first AAA homerun.

Here’s the affiliate Scoreboard from MiLB.

http://www.milb.com/scoreboard/index.jsp?sid=milb&org=143&ymd=20130629

6-29-13 boxscores

118 thoughts on “Box Score Recap – 6/29/2013”

  1. Nice start for Watson, that’s good to see. Maybe he’s starting to figure it out a bit.

    Weird line for Biddle: 9 hits in 6 innings, but only two runs. Anybody at the game? Was he getting knocked around and walking the high wire, or was he just getting dinged and blooped?

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  2. Shane Watson in his last three starts: 16 IP, 0 ER, 12 K, 4 BB. Something’s starting to click …

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  3. The timing of Watson’s turnaround seems very familiar. I recall Brody Colvin and Jesse Biddle having similar results in their ‘year after draft’, debut at Lakewood. They both got clobbered in April and May, then suddenly started getting good results in June.
    It must be an organizational philosophy to force their most advanced arms to work on some things against full-season competition. Rather than sit in extended spring training working on things, until Short-season ball starts.

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    2. There was someone on here within the past month who said the org had instructed Watson not to use his best pitch in order to develop his secondary pitches. He claimed to have went to high school with him. If it’s true, maybe they’re allowing him to use all his pitches again.

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  4. EVEN WITH GALIVIS BACK IN THE MINORS THIS ORGANIZATION STILL FIGURES OUT A WAY TO GET MINI-MART ABS!!!!!!! GETS F#@%ING RELEASE HIM ALREADY AAAAHHHHHHHHH

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      1. The Phillies did replace him and he is not on the 40 man roster anymore. Martinez is in the minors for good so what is your issue?

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        1. Martinez is a weed. You think he’s gone once you pull him, but he’s never truly gone. He’ll find his way back to Philly at some point.

          I won’t be happy until he’s in another organization.

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  5. Wait, Larry Green’s stolen 5 bases already? There must be some pretty awful catchers in the SAL…

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    1. He’s surprisingly quick on his feet. I was at a game in Greensboro and he easily legged out an infield hit. IIRC, he stole a base as well. He’s not Roman Quinn quick, obviously, but I don’t think his size is detrimental to his speed. If he could just put his swing together and get some hits, esp for power…….

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    2. And don’t forget , Nick Saban wanted Larry to come play linebacker for a national championship caliber team and you gotta be able to run to play sec football

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  6. •Phillies GM Ruben Amaro Jr. acknowledged that the club had interest in Cuban sensation Yasiel Puig before he signed on with the Dodgers, reports Todd Zolecki of MLB.com. “We saw him and we liked him,” said Amaro, but “L.A. jumped up astronomically on him. … It’s a huge risk. It’s paid off, so far.” Likewise, the Phils kicked the tires on fellow Cubans Yoenis Cespedes and Jorge Soler, and even “had interesting conversations with their people,” but ultimately felt uncomfortable with the risk.
    W dont you be honest ruben, Your owners are cheap when it comes to latin players. everyone is interested, but only the teams with guts take the chance, dont you trust your scouts ruben???

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    1. The collective world of baseball laughed when L.A. signed Puig to that deal — including everybody on this board. It was a massive gamble that paid off for them, but you can’t criticize any other GM for not throwing $35 million at a guy after ONE BATTING PRACTICE.

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      1. Actually I Would never give a guy 42 million, that is unproven, and Puig is a six week player, but find it interesting that they look at these guys, but wont pull the trigger on any of them, only reason they got franco, was he was slow and no one else was really bidding. The kid who went to oakland you knew could play, and he would be a nice addition right now. dont know how much solar got. really know nothing about him,

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        1. “Actually I Would never give a guy 42 million, that is unproven”

          OK, Cespedes got $36 million. Would you say he was proven?

          I’m not going to say I wouldn’t want the Phillies to sign any of these guys, but you can’t call them cheap for not throwing the rainy day fund away on lottery tickets.

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          1. Puig would have been a non-hero if DeFratus would have just thrown that 0-2 slider in the dirt like he wanted.
            Lets see if Puig can continue to hit .400 once teams start to invest is scouting his weaknesses.
            From the scouting reports linked from this site, I thought the money for both Cespedes ($9M per) and Puig (unproven) was very high, especially for the A’s.

            Soler was a lower risk per season but even more unproven as he’d need to go thru the minors. $6M signing bonus was as high as a Top3 draft pick and then he is guaranteed another $24M regardless. 12:$1M, 13:$1M, 14:$2M, 15:$2M, 16:$3M, 17:$3M, 18:$4M, 19:$4M, 20:$4M. If he was a draft pick the team would not even have to worry about arbitration until about 2018.
            Even so, with the salary structure in place if he is at least a Mayberry type player that salary is reasonable, and if he is a star it would have bought him out through that escalating arbitration period. This deal seemed like a risk that might be worth taking, especially for a team not that concerned about salary.

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          2. Mike as i stated, more concern about the guys who were getting, one and two million bonus to sign. I can understand not throwing big money like the 42 million or even 36, didnt know what those guys, finally got.

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      2. Wait a minute…most all Cubans ballplayers play in competitve Cuban professional leagues and some also played in the WBC. So there is scouting on them. Soler may have been the exception to that since he was a teenager.

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        1. Puig because of defection attempts had not played organized baseball in close to two years. He was overweight and out of shape during the tryout and really didn’t get into great shape until spring training this year.

          The Cespedes deal is interesting because the money is less than many teams offered, the key to the deal for Oakland is that it was only 4 years allowing Cespedes to hit free agency at age 30.

          The Cubs had a handshake deal with Soler 2+ months before he signed the deal, it seemed they would top any offer.

          This isn’t to say that the Phillies shouldn’t have tried harder, but hindsight is really easy make decisions.

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          1. “The Cespedes deal is interesting because the money is less than many teams offered”

            I’ve never read this anywhere.

            “The Cubs had a handshake deal with Soler 2+ months before he signed the deal, it seemed they would top any offer.”

            The Phillies can’t figure out how to shake hands?

            So Matt, tell us what the impediment to the Phillies signing Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez will be.

            I know the answer and the name of the individual who will stop it from happening but you seem to have magical sources that as they accumulate are becoming entertaining.

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            1. There were deals for much more guaranteed money out there for Cespedes but they would have prevented him from getting a large FA pay day (6+ year offers). It is actually brilliant of the part of Cespedes because his next contract ill likely be for 18+ million/year.

              The Phillies will not sign Miguel Gonzalez because they have decided somewhere that the financial risk is too much to match the offers of other teams. This stems not from cheapness but from a complete non-understanding of the value of cost controlled young talent. Ownership and management do not understand the fundamentals of talent acquisition, yes they could spend more but this is a business and their main goal is o make money. The biggest problem is that they lack the knowledge of where to spend the money they have.

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            2. Matt, the Phillies ownership takes a mutual fund approach to international players instead of what I would call the “roulette approach” which is put all your money on one color/number spot. Agree when a Puig or Cepedes is available that they should be more open minded but there are far more failures than successes in these signings. As other posters have pointed out this seems to be a ownership issue not a management issue over the last thirty years.

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            3. “There were deals for much more guaranteed money out there for Cespedes but they would have prevented him from getting a large FA pay day (6+ year offers)”

              Cespedes is like any other amateur player signed. He came up immediately so his service time clock was started quickly – as was Yu Darvish- but Cespedes is not a free agent until after the 2017 season.

              It would seem that Ryan Howard was a far bigger gamble than Yasiel Puig as Puig’s total cost is less than two seasons of Ryan Howard. In one month Puig has almost as many HR as Howard has this year.

              Who was the last bat paid for by the Phillies? Raul Ibanez five years ago right? Not exactly a mega-big contract there either. While the offense has been getting worse and worse the pitching has begun to fall off quickly as well. If the Phillies sell the Mets will be a better team next year.

              And isn’t this something the Phillies find desirable? Isn’t it the “Mets turn to be good”?

              Go peruse the history of the Mets and Phillies since the Mets came into existence at Baseball-Reference.com

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            5. Sorry I ever brought up the latin market. The phillies wont change, even the writers say it now. They dont value the international market like other teams, they are a big market, run by small minds, we are just wasting our time, with the latin market. Funny it took gillick to get them to a championship, after the Wades of the world failed, They realized you need someone who has won to show you how to build a team, Wonder how long it will take, to realize that Amaro cant build a team, and the latin market does have great players, if you trust your scouts, you can get some good players . My last comment on this dead subject, by the way what are the odds that Franco, comes up before Asche???anyone at lehigh valley game. nice start by martin but only two strikeouts, seems strange he only had two punch outs.

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            6. Thank you Matt for your 2nd paragrah. That is (or at least was) exactly the issue in a nutshell.

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          2. Puig played for the Cuban national baseball team in the 2008 World Junior Baseball Championship, winning a bronze medal. He then played for the Cienfuegos team of the Cuban National Series in the 2008-09 Cuban National Series. He batted .276 with five home runs in his debut season. Puig enjoyed a breakout season in the 2009-10 Cuban National Series, with a .330 batting average, 17 home runs, 47 runs batted in (RBIs) and 78 runs scored in 327 at-bats. Puig also played for the Cuban national team in the 2011 World Port Tournament. Puig attempted to defect sometime after that and was disciplined by not being allowed to play during the 2011-12 seasons.
            Puig had a history of excellence at a very early age. His inactivity was shorter then two years at an age 21/22.

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            2. A sarcastic question gets you a sarcastic response….why yes. Seriously, do you really think he popped out of an egg the day before they threw the money at him!

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            3. No, but he’s not the only player who has had success at that level. My point is that the Dodgers took a serious gamble by signing him to the deal he got, based on his experience and how much they — or anybody else — were able to scout him.

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            4. Look. I am venting like roccom does.
              . I have Hall of Fame tixs and spend enough every year for the last 5/6 years. With Maikel, they debated signing this guy to a measly $100K contract because of poor foot-speed, and he will turn out to be a gold-mine and nugget. The Marlins had no qualms on signing Miguel Cabrera back in ’99, and he is slow as molasses. Or the Yanks with Montero or Sanchez…who they may package for return value, like they did with Montero to the Mariners. The Phillies management —-David Montgomery and the ownership—are so ‘frugal’ it is depressing. Cespedes, Puig, Soler, Chapman….all Cubans who they take cursory looks at, as they say (due diligence)…..now Miguel Gonzalez is out there this year….will they be a player….probably not. I can count on one hand all the impact Latin they have signed in the last 25/30 years….Juan Samuel, Julio Franco, Ruiz, anybody else!
              Now the Rangers, Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, and Cubs…I can count on one hand in the last 5/10 years their impact Latin signings.
              It is time this ownership is exposed, and it has to be by the writers and sport-talk hosts, but many are friends with Dave, who is a nice guy, but very thrifty…..the fans pay top dollar for their product they put out there. They hang their hats on discovering and developing Howard, Rollins and Utley…….the best at their positions ever in a Phillies uniform….the blind squirrel will find the nut once in awhile.

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    3. “W dont you be honest ruben, Your owners are cheap when it comes to latin players. everyone is interested, but only the teams with guts take the chance, dont you trust your scouts ruben???”

      You were on a roll there and then reverted to giving Amaro authority he has never had and never will have.

      Amaro can claim some guy off waivers from Cleveland on his own. He can send Michael Martinez anywhere he wants to. When it comes time to keeping or moving Cliff Lee or Chase Utley, that’s a David Montgomery decision.

      When you are talking about making waves signing a draft pick over slot, dropping a multimillion dollar bonus on a Dominican prospect or especially bidding on a Yu Darvish or Yasiel Puig, that’s a David Montgomery decision.

      Do the Phillies talent evaluators like Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez? It’s a big money Cuban sign. That means David Montgomery has to give the OK and we all know how that will end don’t we?

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      1. I thought a good gm, can get ownership to spend, when he is sold on a player.especailly a team from a big market, who is getting tremodous fan support. my mistake

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  7. All the things wrong with the big club and farm and dude still needs to complain about a guy just removed from the 40 man??? Get a life and a clue man…. Who cares about Mini Mart

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    1. I don’t understand why you would attack him personally for complaining about a guy who is awful, regardless of the situation of the big club. He is doing the same exact thing you are doing with his life, posting something on a website where the replies are not important anyway.

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  9. I wonder how people feel about Asche. He is quietly putting together a nice season at the plate, OPS’ing near .800 – although he does seem to struggle against LHP.

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    1. I like Asche and think it would be wise of Phillies to unload Young and play Asche around the trade deadline. He has handled AAA well. He can handle 3B defensively and has now hit well in A+/AA/AAA. I don’t know whether Asche or Franco ends up as our 3B, but would guess Franco in 2015 and going forward from there. I do know that Asche has a ton more trade value if he gets his feet wet in major leagues this season and can have a decent/good year in 2014. You can’t get all that much for a minor leaguer like Asche, and I’d hate to see him traded for a pittance. He could be worth a fair amount a year from now as a cheap major leaguer.

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      1. I agree with you. Asche’s trade value does increase if he has major league experience. What is there to lose this year. Pretty foregone conclusion, Charllie is gone after October. And Ruben still has another year of possibie mediocrity until the fans revolt and storm Dave M’s office. Ruben would be wise to get Asche up for that reason and sweetening a package with Asche may get him something of value needed in return.

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        1. I doubt Asche is going to be ‘highly’ valued. He is not a bonus baby or that young. He likely has more value to the Phillies (possibly due to intangibles) that other teams are unlikely to ‘pay’ for.
          If another team sees him as a cost controlled regular they maybe the Phillies could sell high for cost controlled regular at a different position.

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          1. Once you are in the majors and playing ok/well as an MLB starting position player, it really doesn’t matter whether you were or were not a bonus baby. Asche is, in fact, that young. Whether he comes to Philly in August or next April, he will have made the majors by age 23. To be a major league starting 3B at age 23 actually is fairly young.

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      2. If you like Asche so much than why do you advocate trading him? When Franco is ready, imo you keep Asche and move him to either second base or left field. I guess I’m in the minority, but I see alot more projection from Asche than most.

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        1. From everything I have seen and heard, Asche has an Utley-like drive and work ethic. He has a bit of that “it” factor. Ignore or underestimate him at your peril.

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          1. I’m glad i’m not the only one that see’s another Utley in the making with Asche! Coming up through the minors everybody was saying Utley’s ceiling was 15 home runs a year, and 80 rbi a year.

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            1. No, he is saying he has Utley-like drive and work ethic, something very different. Catch likes Asche a lot, a little more than I do (though I like him better than the scouting consensus), but he is much too smart to thank that Asche is “another Utley in the making.”

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        2. My one concern. Ache may not be able to make the pivot at second to turn the DP. Evidently it was tried two years ago and he was uncomfortable. Perhaps with his work-ethic he can learn to do it. If he does, then move him when the time comes.

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          1. Thinking about it….if Dan Uggla could do it..swinging back and forth between 3rd and 2nd in the minors….why not Asche. But will the Phillies FO take the chance with capable 2nd basemen like Hernandez and perhaps Galvis sitting on the doorstep!

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          2. Asche turned 40 double plays at 2B in 64 games at Williamsport. Cesar Hernandez, in 65 games at Williamsport, turned 40 double plays. Asche’s fielding percentage wasn’t great — .954 (.978 for Hernandez) — but it wasn’t terrible either, for a guy unfamiliar with the position.

            There was an interesting quote about Asche in an article recently where one of the Phils execs said they tried him at 2B because they didn’t think he could play third. When they tried him at 3B the next season, they realized he might be able to stick and left him there. That tells me that the 2B experiment wasn’t abandoned because he didn’t have the potential to field the position, but that they simply decided to try him as a 3B.

            Now, I’m not suggesting Asche can play 2B. But I doubt the door is closed if the org decided to try that direction again once Franco is ready (assuming Asche handles big league pitching, of course).

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            1. LIke I said. If Uggla can do it, why not Asche. He certainly will work hard at it. They already started Andrew Pullin getting accustomed to the position change. Additionally, Asche could go to the AFL and play 2nd base.

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    1. The talk of Franco’s foot-speed issues , especially getting out of the box, has been discussed frequently. However, from this video-clip, on a hard-hit ball down the line, he seemed to be able to motor pretty efficiently to the bag getting beat by half-a -step. And Sano’s one-bounce throw was strong and right on.

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      1. I agree about how Franco looked compared to how he is described as running. He looked fine hustling down the line only to get beat by one amazing throw and also, what a pick by the 1B.

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  11. What would people say to this deals possibility:

    Cliff Lee
    Michael Young
    Jimmy Rollins

    For

    Xavier Bogaerts
    Jackie Bradley
    Matt Barnes
    Allen Webster

    First off I doubt this trade would ever happen, but i’m no GM and based on the Red Sox organizations commitment to winning word series this trade seems like it would do wonder for their chances of winning one. I mean Stephen Drew just got hurt and apparently there is no timetable for his return and it wasn’t like he was lighting the world on fire before he got hurt. Jimmy Rollins has a solid contract, still has pop in his bat (would probably love hitting in that park), and he would get to compete for a championship team, as would Cliff Lee who we already know the Red Sox have interest in for good reason…he is a fantastic pitcher and one of the few true aces in baseball who still has 3 years remaining on his contract. Michael Young has been good this year, but isn’t what we need…however he seems to be exactly what the Red Sox need; a solid bat at third (Will Middlebrooks got demoted to AAA and is hitting around the mendoza line) a proven veteran player at a minimal contract (Rangers already paying 13 of 16 million $$ contract). The Red Sox shed a ton of contracts last year at the trade deadline, but it looks like their payroll is around 157 million $$ and this trade would probably put them close to the luxury tax so on that front it might not be possible.

    For the Phillies we would be helping our future immensely with a huge infusion of talent with 4 top 50 prospects all of whom are close to the majors and Jackie Bradley has already had a cup of coffee at the major league level. Young SS with star potential, solid young OF with a great hit tool, and 2 starters with great potential. I know we have a few young shortstops with great potential, but as has been reiterated on comments over and over again we can’t worry about players blocking each other…this is a good problem to have as far as problems go. I know this would essentially clear the Red Sox system of high level talent so on that front as well as the salary front it probably isn’t likely…but on the surface it seems like it would at least help both organizations in a tangible way. For the Red Sox it could make them into a legitimate World Series contender, give them a very special pitcher in Cliff Lee, a veteran shortstop who plays lights out defense and has some pop in hit bat, and a rental of a solid above average veteran bat in Michael Young (team option?) who isn’t going to break the bank.

    Thoughts? First post on this site btw.

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    2. The concept isn’t far off, I just don’t see the Red Sox moving a prospect of Bogart’s caliber w/o getting back a top cost controlled player (Stanton). Jimmy likely vetoes that deal as well. Something involving a combination of Webster, Barnes, and Bradley for Lee isn’t that terrible a deal.

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    3. Could Phillies third baseman Michael Young soon find himself in the AL East?
      According to George A. King of the New York Post, the Boston Red Sox are “very interested” in Young if he becomes available via a trade.“They want him badly,” an industry source said of the Red Sox, who demoted the struggling Will Middlebrooks to the minors and are playing Jose Inglesias at third base. King mentioned the New York Yankees might be in the market for a third baseman and Young would be “a perfect fit” in the Bronx. He also said the Phillies had two scouts at Yankee Stadium on Wednesday.
      Young is a free agent at the end of the season and has a no-trade clause. However, the 36-year-old did waive it once already to come to Philadelphia.

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        1. I don’t want to be harsh, but if they threw in Lee they couldn’t get that package. Neither of those players – Young especially, but Utley also – is going to get a potential impact prospect, alone or together, let alone two.

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            4. “your saying we couldnt get austin and montgomery for Lee?”
              LarryM replied: “Not a chance.”

              LarryM is trolling. He can’t possibly be that ignorant.

              Tyler Austin, Slade Heathcott and Mason Williams are going to disappear from every Top 100 list. Those who put them there are going to put their fingers in their ears and chant loudly “La La La La La!” whenever anyone asks about them and the outrageous hype they were given. Each of these three is no different than Tyson Gillies, and Gillies sucks.

              Gary Sanchez will still make the bottom of the Top 100 lists because his age fraud has not yet been officially exposed.

              The hype has not fooled any MLB team though. That’s why the Yankees can’t trade for any help.

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          2. If Utley is healthy and produces at an All-Star level the next four weeks they can certainly pry Austin from the Yanks – straight up in fact. As far as Montgomery, the Pharm has had a half-dozen similar types in the past few years even if none have produced at the major league level.

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            1. Ruben says he doesn’t want to talk or say the words ‘blow the team up’. I rhetorically ask, does moving MYoung, Paps, and Utley constitute ‘blowing this team up’? In separate deals to the Sox/Yanks (Young), Detroit (Paps), and another contender (Utley), you may get three worthwhile prospects.

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  12. Happy 23rd Birthday to Cody Asche, who has so far celebrated by going 2/2 with a walk and a stolen base, raising his OPS to .801 on the season.

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  15. Me, I had no idea that Colvin was still in the game. A lost cause, I’ve been thinking. Can he be a Phoenix rising from the ashes to become viable? It’s been a loooong time for him.

    Whaaat?

    Show us more, please.

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  16. On the trading issues:

    We all know how pathetic the present team is. So let’s hope RAJ gets his head out of his rear end and puts the best of our tools on the market. Thus, Lee, Paps, Utley, and M Young SHOULD bring back 2-3 pitchers, 2 OFers, and a SS all of whom should be considered superior and “ready” to take their next step into MLB. Asche should then move in to 3rd base, and the players received all to the MLB roster to play.

    The suggested trade above to include J-Roll was creative, though I wish I knew more about those named to come to Philly. Paps also should bring two superior prospects.

    It could be a haul that would immediately freshen the franchise and give us the pleasure of watching youth replace the over-the-hill gang whose time has come and gone.

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    1. Art, I don’t mean to be harsh, but the best case scenario for those players as a group is two major league ready players, not 5 or 6. If they could really pull those deals off, they would be far and away the best series of trades in the history of organized sports.

      Lee and Papelbon are the guys who could get us a decent return. M. Young gets you at best a decent relief prospect, maybe not that. Utley gets you a little more than that, but won’t be traded for a host of reasons, the most important for this discussion being that the return for him would be less than the sandwich pick they will get if he leaves as a result of free agency.

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      1. Harsh? No. I want to see a freshening of this franchise. Yes, we DO know that the best two pieces most value are Lee & Paps. In the creative trade mentioned, Paps and Lee would go to different teams. The Lee plus above trade included J-Roll (IMO, an essential piece from the Sox standpoint–SS needed along w 3rd base), M Young 4 3rd base, would be 3 prior All-Stars with Lee having a “lights-out” season and would continue to be under contract for 2 (?) more years.

        THAT could/should lead the Sox into the playoffs…maybe deeply.

        For all that, I suggest that the return named is all very possible.

        Now, then Paps is ready to bring back at least 2 more superior prospects. Pitcher & Ofer? Utely SHOULD be traded whether or not they’d then lost a 2nd round draft choice because if they don’t IMO there is no way the Phils re-sign him…certainly he is a hollow player of what he used to be. Sentiment and loss of a 2nd rd draft choice should not be barriers: help NOW needed more than in 5 years for that 2nd round choice.

        Harsh? No. Just not in line w my thinking. Fair?

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        1. Art,

          I’m not going to belabor the point, but it isn’t a “different line of thinking.” We disagree – wildly – about the expected returns on these guys. I’m not going to compose a long post trying to convince you of something that I won’t be able to convince you of – I’ve set the argument out at length before. Simply put, though, history tells you that:

          (a) A guy like M. Young gets you essentially nothing. The fact that he was once an all star means less than nothing.

          (b) A pure rental such as Utley, except on rare occasion, does not get you an impact prospect (or a major league ready decent regular/starting pitcher). Rollins, if put on the market, is more than a rental but isn’t good enough anymore to get you much in return.

          (c) Guys like Lee and Papelbon may get you a major league ready player or a potential impact player (though probably NOT a major league ready impact player – those guys are rarely traded). But even their value is limited because of their contracts, which, while not horrible, are not bargains by any means. And both are older veterans. a factor also.

          The one area we do differ a little in terms of “line of thinking” is the “major league ready” part. Insisting on major league ready talent reduces even further – essentially to zero – the chance of getting IMPACT talent for any of these guys.

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          1. Brian Sabean gave up Zach Wheeler for an ‘injury plagued’ rental player like Carlos Beltran. So, IMO, with Utley there can be hope for ONE worthwhile return prospect from a contender.

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            1. That really is the ONE instance people keep coming back to. I could list 200 contrary examples, at least. And, of course, Wheeler was in low A at the time of the trade. Yes, even then he was a highly rated prospect, but the risk factor on a low A pitcher is extremely high. Remember Art’s insistence that the player received in return be “major league ready.”

              Look, it’s magical thinking pure and simple. If you guys want to indulge in that, fine, but why limit yourself. D. Young for M. Trout, come on Reuben, get it done.

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            2. Does Greinke for Segura and two other Top-20 prospects of the Angels count? Greinke after all was a free-agent and 2-month rental for the Angels. So that’s two examples in 2012 alone – the further you look back trades like this become more and more common. Want another example?

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            3. “The further back you look” is a very salient point, but in favor of my argument. And for every example of yours, I could come up with 30 going the other way.

              You would also find that most of your examples would be starting pitchers, who, for whatever reason, seem to be a little more valued as rentals than position players. Also, in the case of Greinke, part of the Angels thinking appeared to be the (erroneous) belief that they would be able to re-sign him. Less of a factor with Utley, who isn’t going to be as sought after as Greinke was. Finally, I think Greinke was clearly regarded as more of an impact player than Utley is now.

              The frustrating thing about all of this – and I find myself in the odd position of actually defending Amaro – is that for obvious reasons events won’t answer the question of who was right, unless some team is gullible enough to overpay for Utley. He won’t get traded, and we’ll see all kinds of posts moaning about Amaro’s “failure” to get good prospects for him, when in reality the offers just aren’t going to be there.

              Magical thinking, pure and simple.

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            4. “”“The further back you look” is a very salient point, but in favor of my argument””

              Of course it is Larry. Well done. You’re en fuego – you cannot be stopped

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            5. The dynamic has also shifted a bit in recent years, as teams increasingly realize the importance of young controllable talent and of course as a consequence of the rules change (no comp pick for the team trading for a rental). The Wheeler deal was an aberration even then, and of course looks even much worse in hindsight given Wheeelr’s development and health. But those facts aside, that deal IMO would not happen in the current climate and under the current rules.

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        2. And yeah, I’ve read all the posts suggesting Papelbon for Castellanos, and he is arguably a major league ready potential impact player. But I don’t buy it, I don’t see the Tigers being that desperate. I COULD be wrong, but if it happens, it’s going to be JUST Castellanos, not Castellanos plus. Not in a billion years “at least 2 more superior prospects.”

          As for Utley, if you want major league ready talent for him, you’re looking at a reliever, a 5th starter, or a bench position player. No one trades you a major league ready position player or decent starting pitcher for a rental of a player who is “a hollow player of what he used to be” (yes, you can find a couple of exceptions. I can find scores of examples supporting my point). I’ll take the sandwich pick, if it comes to that, but I still think he will and should be re-signed.

          And that is arguably a different “line of thinking,”: though even there our differing opinions about the return on our veterans drives our disagreement. If I thought the fire sale you advocate would bring us the prospects to return to contention, or even to be decent, in the short run, then I’d probably adopt that “line of thinking” as well. But IMO that kind of fire sale would result in 2 or 3 years of the Phillies turning into the Marlins. No thanks.

          *Ironically, I think you are being overly harsh on Utley.

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          1. I would, of course, do the Castellanos deal in a heartbeat. And if Lee really could get us two top prospects (again, a trade off between impact players and major league ready talent, I’d prefer potential impact players), then you would have to think long and hard about it. But that’s at best 3 top prospects versus your 5 or 6. At best.

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          2. It’s not desperation by the Tigers. It’s a fair deal. There is value in getting a Papelbon in trade for the teeth of the pennant race and the post-season, as opposed to signing him in the off-season as the Phillies did. First, you don’t lose your first rounder to sign him as a FA as the Phillies did. This is worth the equivalent of a first rounder in the trade. Second, you don’t buy an expensive guy and then find your team is either too bad or too good to need him, as has happened to the Phillies. This is worth something. Next, you save on 2/3 of the guy’s salary in the year that you need him, more if the Phillies pay most of the salary for the rest of 2013. That’s also worth a lot. Then you control him going forward, which is a blessing or a curse, depending on your fiscal state going forward and what you think of the guy’s future.

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            1. I guess it depends upon just how good you think Castellanos is going to be. It seems to me that, at this point, he’s likely to be at least a quality major league regular and likely more than that, some chance much more than that. To get the cost controlled years of a guy like that is huge – tens of millions of dollars in excess value. That far, far outweighs the value of 2 1/2 years of an aging closer – even a very good one – at a market rate salary (or even arguable above market salary).

              I’m quite confident I’m right on that. The best run organizations don’t make that deal, not in a million years. Where I COULD be wrong is in expecting the Tigers to be rational about it. They are not a bad organization, but not on the level of the Rangers/Red Sox/Cardinals/Rays’ organizations. So maybe they do it.

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            3. Really? Disagree STRONGLY. Castellanos is a MUCH, MUCH better value than a mid first round pick. Maybe one mid first round pick in 10 develops into a Castellanos.

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            4. And to be clear, I think dreaming about the return for Papelbon, while exaggerated, is at least in the realm of the possible, unlike imagining that Utley is going to get us much of a return. Especially a return of major league ready players.

              As an aside, what a train wreck the Angels front office is.

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            5. LarryM based on your rational, and negative thinking, this team will be lousy and play-off starved for the next five years! Hope is what we have.

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            6. Five years? I think YOU’RE being pessimistic.

              Look, with Amaro at the helm – and, despite my limited defense of him today, I don’t think he is the man for the job – your pessimism may be right. But there is no reason in the world, with good player development and drafting and judicious spending of money, why this team can’t return to contention by 2016. But wild fantasies about absurdly unrealistic expectations about the return on our veteran players isn’t really optimism – or, if it is a kind of optimism, it’s the kind GUARANTEED to be dashed in the coming months.

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  17. regarding Yoel Mecias and him needing Tommy John surgery how bad do you guy’s think this will impact his career.

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    1. Really depends, he needs to find a breaking ball and possibly a few mph on the fastball.More than anything it adds more risk to him and potentially makes him a bullpen piece long term. The key will be how the changeup looks when he starts throwing again

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    2. heart breaking. Guy I followed closely. Had really really good change up that had lots of movement. He is young and hopefully he comes back stronger because he is very thin.

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  18. Just checked the BA Red Sox “Best ten Prospects 2013” and I’d make that trade in a heartbeat! But would the Sox give all that up? Named are their 4 best prospects.

    That would still leave Utley and Paps to be traded…for which some more goodies can be had.

    Hope RAJ & Monty can see the reality staring them in the face. Considering the crap RAJ got back in several of his trades, it scares me to see his judgment used again to make good choices!

    If Gillick was involved in deciding those bad trades, I hope he stays out of this. OTOH, if he was NOT invlved, then I hope he will be on these.

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    1. I am more concerned about what some of scouts are seeing in player acquisitions. In all honesty, Ruben is probably nothing more than mouth piece for scouts in negotiations. The Phillies really haven’t hit on under-valued player since Werth. The phillies can still trader after the season and I would only make moves if they are fleecing someone. I still prefer to see Utley stroke 2 homers than get a prospect with warts. Lee makes the phillies watchable. I would just trade fringe players like both Youngs and any of middle relief pitchers. I would absolutely try to move Aumont.

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      1. “I would absolutely try to move Aumont.”

        Has he been standing in front of your door blocking you from getting in and out of your residence?

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      2. RAJ and any GM never has and never will be a mouthpiece for the scouts. If the scouts and development folks had their way, we would trade for a group of high-ceiling guys in low-A league, who would allow scouts to dream of their tools and the development guys to dream of shaping them. Scouts don’t really dwell on flame-out rates or the likelihood of shoulder surgery. A GM thinks more of PR and a more immediate major league return on the trade, as in he wants to see productive young major league contributors fast enough to keep himself in the GM seat and not lose too many fan fannies in the seats. He realizes that a lot of the high ceiling low-A guys will never make it past AA, so he would much prefer to trade for a AA player than a low-A guy. This is a battle which the GM almost always wins and the scout almost always loses.

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        1. Amaro said the Phillies scouted Puig and had discussions about signing him but felt it was a risky proposition. “We looked at him and had interesting conversations with their people,” Amaro said. “But [the Dodgers] decided it was worth the risk to go and throw big-time money him. You hope those things work out.” Although Puig, at least through the first month, appears to have worked out and Oakland and Texas netted stars in Yoenis Cespedes and Yu Darvish, Amaro mentioned several international signings that did not pan out, including Rey Ordonez, Daisuke Matsuzaka and Kaz Matsui.
          “It’s a risk,” Amaro said.
          Note;
          Someone should please inform Ruben…first round draft choices are also a risk, but ‘big-time money’ is thrown their way.
          Everything.you need to know about this organizations philsophy is revealed in that little statement. The fear of monetary failure through risk.
          Shame on you Phillies and pity the 3M plus fans who pay to see them every year.

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          1. The $42 million Puig got is more than Strasburg, Harper, Buxton and Appel combined got after being drafted. I get your point, and would love to see the org spend more on the top young guys coming out of Latin America, but for every Puig and Darvish, there is a Matsuzaka ($100 million!), Hideki Irabu and Kaz Matsui.

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            1. Understand but look at the per annum.
              Puig’s is $6M per annum (42 @ 7yrs)…Strasburg’s is $4M per annum….Harper’s is $2M per annum with a $6M signing bonus. Puig’s long-term and yearly expense….is relatively cheap based on what appears he will bring you in return.
              Marketing alone he has turned the Dodgers franchise, and on the field it has become obvious what his contributions will be. It was a risk , Dodgers took it and it has worked.
              ‘Fortune sides with he who dares’
              Phillies play it safe with their money. And that is a shame, since a very small minute portion of their money I contributed to them with the seaon HoF tixs.
              Ownership —above the GM’s level -needs to be publicly embarrassed before changes in philosophy can be affected.

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            2. General questions, not sarcastic: Were you all about Puig before he was signed? I don’t remember much chatter about him. Soler was the guy that everyone wanted.

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            3. The entire board — actually, the entire baseball world outside of Los Angeles — chuckled at that deal. He hadn’t played in two years, he was out of shape and signed to a $42 million deal based on one batting practice. It’s worked out for them, obviously, but he’s a very expensive lottery ticket that happened to hit.

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            4. Yeah, everyone was down on the Puig signing, it was also very under the radar. Most scouts didn’t see anything there until he showed up to Spring Training in amazing shape. I think people have swung too hard on thinking he is the next superstar as well. He is going to be very good because the tools are good, but a 3.7 BB%, 18.7 K%, and .500 BABIP is not sustainable. He is going to have some serious struggles at some point and whether he adjusts or not will determine his ceiling.

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          2. Every player is a risk. Trading for Garcia was a huge risk that Gillick gambled on and lost. Extending Ryan Howard 2 years before he had to was a huge risk which RAJ took and lost. Signing Adams was a moderate risk, which RAJ took and lost. Extending LIdge, signing Eaton, Jenkins, trading for Pence, all the extra years to FAs like Ibanez — all risks taken and lost. Whether RAJ pays for guys from Cuba, Japan, youth in the draft and Latin America, major league FA, or major leaguers in trades, there is a big, big risk. RAJ and the Phillies only seem comfortable about taking a big risk with established major leaguers, yet they have been badly burned multiple times by going only that route in their risk taking.

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          3. The Dodgers got ripped when they signed Puig for that amount of money. The Phillies aren’t the only ones who didn’t think $42 mil was worth it

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  19. All these posts are colored by the way management views the team. Let them feel desperate enough and money may flow. First they have to take off the rose colored glasses.

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      1. Apparently it is more then Giles. Middleton has money, but is a silent partner, so he has no say it appears. The Buck family, along with the Betz family have the money while Monty and Giles operate the org and clear big decisions through the ownership.

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