General Discussion – Week of 6-17-2013

Weekly Discussion

Let’s bring the discussion of the state of the club over to this thread from the Draft Tracker. It’s hard to keep track of the bits and pieces on signings and the discussion of draft pool etc. with the rest of the discussion going on there. I’m as guilty as anyone else, but I’m going to try to keep that thread clean for the next couple weeks so I don’t miss any news. If you see one of your thoughts from over there get deleted, this is why.

Allow me also to break some news: The Phillies are pretty bad right now.

197 thoughts on “General Discussion – Week of 6-17-2013”

    1. All depends how much salary we can cover. Papelbon looks like an ideal match for the Tigers, but I don’t see any chance they give up Castellanos for him.

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      2. According to wip, and Anthony Gargano tigers would trade Castellanos and there number 4 prospects right now.But that is unconfirmed , could be wishful thinking, but if tigers believe he is missing piece, cant see any reason they wouldnt trade him for a world series chance, especially since he came up once, I believe and didnt set the world on fire,

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          2. Asche and Paps for Castellanos? or Ruf and Paps for Castellanos? Who would you take as a Tiger GM?

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            1. No way I trade asche as part of the deal b/c he is not a throwin IMHO, much more of a solid mlbER. I could see throwing a Sebastian Valle in especially with Knapp drafted, Moore, behind, Rupp, joseph and LeRud ahead.

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            4. I’d love it we could get Castellanos + Porcello even if we have to throw in a mid-level prospect. Though I suspect it is more likely that we’d get Smyly which wouldn’t be all bad either.

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        2. “According to wip, and Anthony Gargano”

          This is the same garbage that claimed the Phillies made some kind of bizarre three year offer to Josh Hamilton – which never happened.

          Turn it off.

          Sports talk radio is hosted by professional trolls who make this crap up to keep people listening through commercial breaks.

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      3. How about Utley and Papelbon for Castellanos(and a throw in)?

        Tigers need a 2B with theirs hitting around the mendoza line.

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          1. Sorry Steve of Tampa…he is Greek not Italian…Castellanos not Castellano..close enough however.

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      4. Tigers had scouts in watching the Phillies in Minny. But then again so did a lot of teams.

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        1. Now that’s something I could endorse. Castellanos and Porcello would be a pretty good return

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      2. Ruben, will undoubtedly hesitant with dealing Paps, and the Tigers will go out and get someone else.
        Porcello, otoh, is going through some pitching difficulties of late which may be affecting his confidence.

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        1. You’re thinking of someone else anon1. Porcello has clearly turned a corner and has been dominant the past month and solid the past two months. Take away April, and in particular, one April start which he gave up 9ER in less than an inning and we’re talking All-Star candidate. Most tellingly is a notable increase in K/9 which is better than a K per inning the past 8 starts

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            1. If it wasn’t for fantasy baseball I probably wouldn’t have noticed myself. Porcello would be a good secondary player to target. His peripherals have improved across the board and in some areas have improved dramatically.

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  2. Was at the game on Saturday for a nice family outing only to have it ruined by one of the most pathetic performances by a Phillies team that I have seen in my 40+ years. Pettibone was terrible, Young was horrific at 3rd, and JRoll is just plain lazy. Disgusting.

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    1. Best part of the day was when my 2 year old threw his Phillies hat over the rail into the lower deck. Coincidentally it was when Young made an error. The timing was priceless.

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    2. I cannot wait for the roster turnover. I’d rather watch guys like Cesar Hernandez, Castro and Ruf in there at this point.

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      1. But the general public does not want to watch them. They didn’t want to watch Domonic Brown until he started hitting HR like Chris Davis.

        Hernandez is a bench player. No power.

        Unfortunately, the Phillies organization has so lowered the bar on positional talent that we are made to see Michael Martinez as an MLB utility guy.

        Scandalous.

        SCAMMIES.

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        1. LarryM…that is our ole buddy AEC.Poor guy hasn’t had a happy day in his life it appears.

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      3. I’ve been a intrigued by Ruf and a real booster, but it makes no sense to bring him to the bigs now. He isn’t hitting all that well in Allentown and the OF D still isn’t all that good. BA is down, and the HR are way down. Ruf has only 6 HR. To put that in perspective, Asche has 8 and Overbeck has 12. If you are going to bring someone up to have a bat off the bench or to play 1B, then Overbeck and Asche are more deserving. With Asche, he plays 3B and Young slides over to 1B. Ruf may very well catch fire in the second half of the year, as he did at Reading, but it won’t help either Ruf or the Phillies to bring up a slumping Ruf.

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    1. Check the draft tracker on this site. It’s got the list as presented by the team or other legitimate media accounts or players’ own social media.

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  4. Not too high on Pettibone. He’s going to have to learn how to be very precise if he wants to be successful, like KK. I think also that KK is going to start regressing after his hot start.
    This team is desperate for a new look-new management, new players. Let’s start the Sandberg era!

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    1. The ‘Bone is a 5 in the rotation, same day maybe a 4, long-shot 3….nothing more and nothing less. He is what he is.

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    2. He and KK are unfortunately the kind of pitchers that will always get torched in Denver. They throw a sinker and the balls don’t sink there. Pettibone’s fastball was straight as an arrow with no movement. Guys were racing to get a bat….

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      1. I saw 60 Minutes Sports on showtime the other day. R.A. Dickey said he wouldn’t even step foot in Colorado. The knuckleball becomes a meatball.

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  5. People in the Phillies organization who should go:
    Rich Dubee: failed to develop young bullpen arms (Aumont, Schwimmer, Stutes, DeFratus, Carpenter, Diekman, Horst, Bastardo, Rosenberg–not one of these guys has become a steady reliever for us yet).
    Charlie Manuel: still a good manager, but is losing his effectiveness because of the passage of time
    Chase Utley: age and health are major concerns
    Michael Young: productivity severely hampered by age
    Delmon Young: productivity hampered by injury, and it also looks like he’s getting old, the way he’s late on so many inside fastballs.
    Trading Lee and Pap could help to replace these players.

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    1. Charlie was never a good manager, he had such great talent, them won in spite of him, when you need someone, to manager a team, that isnt elite, look at his results, he stinks,just keeps running out same guys, like bastardo who stinks in late innings, and use mayberry too much and exposeds him, against right hand pitching.cant manages close games. his stratgery is terrible in games. yes trade pap and lee that is most people answer, if your trading them then you should also trade cole, and jimmy and start over. what good is cole to us with no support.

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      1. Get rid of Hamels? So it seems that your lack of baseball knowledge is only superceded by your lack of spelling and grammar.

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        1. Depends what we could get. There are no untouchables on this roster. If the Cards offered Taveras, Wong, Rosenthal and Martinez for Hamels you wouldn’t pull the trigger? That would give us our future 2&3 hitters and probably our future 2nd and 3rd starting pitchers. This club is in dire need of major roster turnover.

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          1. If they offered Taveres for Hamels you would have to really think about it. But yes if the Cardinals suddenly offered that package you absolutely do that.

            I don’t think anyone gives you an offer worth moving Hamels that makes sense in both marketing and baseball

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          2. Are we dealing in the realm of reality or fantasy? In reality, the cards will not offer that package.

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        2. I think Hamels is a keeper. He’s young, and he still has good stuff. I thinks he’s going to be better than he has been this year so far. He’s a guy you can build around. Lee and Pap are nearing the end of their careers, and we would be better off with younger players, because it might take us some time to contend again.

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    2. When Utley returns, he will have missed 30 or so games in less than half a season.
      His ability to stay off the DL has not improved.
      Time to say good-bye.

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  6. They want Papelbon. I want Castellanos.
    I’m taking Hamels, Brown, Franco and Tocci off the board.
    What does it take to get this done?

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    1. ‘What does it take to get this done?’…first, it would help to have Sandy Alderson making the trade. Ruben, may include Franco with Paps.

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  7. Here is what I think…

    The Phillies have had 2 great steaks of luck / skill / whatever during the 30 years that Giles has owned the team…

    – 1993 where they truly caught lightning in a bottle, helped by some shrewd trades and acquisitions by Lee Thomas and having a team of veterans that were the poster boys for the PED era (before everybody knew it was the PED era). Even with one of the lowest payrolls in baseball the Phillies got all the way to the WS.

    – 1998 thru 2002 where the Phillies had a once in a generation run in the Draft and in LA by getting so many picks so right and finding better than average MLB regulars to borderline HOF level play from some guys (like Utley before getting annually dinged up). The fact that the Phillies accomplished this by religiously sticking to slot bonus (when most of the top market teams were not), spending at the lower end of MLB in Latin America, and that they totally blew it in 1997 and 2001 Drafts due to their personal war with Scott Boras is nothing short of amazing. I don’t care how good your personnel people are, it is unlikely that any Front Office will hit on that many top picks in such a short period of time. Especially working with the built in disadvantages that Phillies ownership has always put on their GM and Scouts.

    So what does that mean going forward? The core needs to rebuilt. We all know that. But the only real way to get there is to wait until it starts reaching MLB. If we want to the Phillies to win again annually we have to wait and hope that many of the picks and signings they have made and are making are the right ones.

    The main problem isn’t Dubee or Manuel or Delmon Young or whatever. They don’t help but they are just symptoms. The Phillies will win again when their MLB core is more talented than most other teams again. The only way this is going to happen unless they decide they want to spend $250M per year in salaries is to get that new core from the farm. Dom Brown is a good start, but obviously more is needed. We are several years away from knowing if that is possible.

    The best thing RAJ could do now is to find another Shane Victorino or Jason Werth type transaction out there. But outside of that, we are just going to have to wait mostly and hope the Phillies are making the right draft picks and right LA signings.

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    1. I would think so, and I don’t think it is a bad trade for either side. I think Castellanos has been a bit overrated because of his young age, but overall he some swing and miss and slightly above average power (it is more gap than anything). At third base it was a more intriguing profile, in a corner OF position it is more a poor man’s Jayson Werth. Which is really nice but not a game changer. Papelbon is a game changer of sorts but it expensive and old, doesn’t seem like an overpay from either side.

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      2. I don’t think the door has closed on Castellanos at 3B. He was moved to the OF because of Cabrera. As I recall, the scouting report was that Castellanos was adequate at third.

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        1. It was adequate, probably average at best (it wasn’t just Cabrera that caused the move). You set development back half a year to a year to think about moving him back. Most scouting reports I have heard say third base is over for Castellanos

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          1. I have read the same on Nick Castellanos. He had more value at 3B, but is now playing LF mostly in AAA.

            I still like him because of his bat, but I am trying to think of what a good comp of his might be? Ironically, maybe Pat Burrell with slightly less power and slightly higher average? Burrell was 23 in AAA and Castellanos is 21. There might be better comps out there.

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            1. Without trying to match a name to him he is likely going to be in the .290-.300/.340-.350/.440-.450 range. The name that comes to mind is Alex Gordon (also a converted third baseman).

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            2. Castellanos seems like a Nick Markakis type, with a higher upside. He’s a natural at the plate,with a 70(maybe even higher?) hit tool and 50/60 power. He’s about 6’4″ 215 and still pretty young, so his consistent hard contact could turn into power once he fills out. He seems like a pretty safe bet, as far as prospects go, to annually bat over .300 and hit over 20 hr. He’s been promoted aggressively, so the walks could increase with age. .

              He’s not a great athlete, but has a strong arm. I wouldn’t completely rule out 3B, as he’s a natural infielder who played SS in high school. His lack of speed becomes more apparent in the outfield, so 3B makes sense. Supposedly he has continued to field grounders this season. The bat works anywhere, as he’s likely to hit 3rd or 5th (or maybe 2nd on an elite offensive squad).He’s a future core player,exactly the kind of guy we need. Now just get another one or two guys like him for Lee and we have something to watch. ,

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            4. Yes, I know. I only mentioned the age difference because I was raising the point that Burrell might not be a good comp because of it. Anyway, Casellanos appears destined for LF/1B/DH in MLB…assuming he makes it.

              Obviously I would have interest in him, I just don’t see the Tigers having interest. They paid him $3.45M in 2010 draft to sign and so far he has proved he was worth every penny of that investment. And for the Tigers it’s not like LF and DH in the Tiger’s lineup are out of reach for him by 2014 or 2015. Victor Martinez’s $12.5M per contract ends after 2014.

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            5. Castellanos is about 6 months older than Franco and might be ready for a call-up this season.

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            6. He’s showing a much-improved walk rate this year. Previously, that was the knock on his bat.

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      3. I don’t have a good feel for trades, but it looks to me as though the Phils would need to add something else (and I don’t mean Gillies or Ruf).

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        1. Matt has been doing great work today to rid the site of his trollish actions. I feel for Matt in this situation. I believe that poster has some serious issues.

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          1. Personally, I don’t understand the desire to exclude Free AEC (completely) from the conversations here except in cases were he uses vulgarity. I don’t agree with the tone of some of his messages. I realize the way he presents his message causes many to ignore everything he says. But there are elements of truth in his critcisms.

            This is a site dedicated to the Farm System. I see no reason why spending and investment in the Farm System…relative to the teams that the Phillies directly compete with for a WS…shouldn’t be an active part of the debate and discussion. Benchmarking is the only objective measure to gauge how you are doing against your direct competition.

            I guess I am not for censorship. Just because I don’t like or agree with some of the opinions expressed doesn’t mean I don’t want to be exposed to them. Without voices you may disagree with being included you end up in an echochamber.

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            1. I only remove content when the tone is inflammatory (ending with f*** isn’t a good way to keep stuff posted) or the post is just repeated verbatim over and over again to spam the site with the message.

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            2. I agree with that for sure. I am not here to defend his style of posting in absolutes or the inclusion of vulgarity. No reason for that stuff.

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            3. He does have elements of truth in his critic. But the obsession he makes on certain Phillis’ fron office types, makes me feel like I have to go back to the shrink again for myself!

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            4. Have to agree with Riggs as Free AEC for the most part contributes nothing and hurts this sites reputation. Also, this is a privately owned site where rules can be enforced more. Sites like MLB.com allow almost anything as they are public.

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  10. The Phils’ problems start in the front office. Until there are radical changes there, it would be wise not to spend your money nor your emotions on this team.

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  11. now that the all star break is over for clearwater is there any word on if franco, dugan, or altherr will head to reading?

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    1. Franco and Dugan are gong to get promoted soon. Altherr is staying put. There was an article on philly.com today on this.

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  12. The only way that the Phillies will get their best return on Lee or Pap is to trade them over the winter, unless they want to pay their salaries for the rest of the year. Teams already have their budgets and unless they feel they ABSOLUTELY have to have someone they will not deal for 10 – 20 million dollar salaries.
    That being said, if we deal with Detroit I would want Garcia. Fills a need and is major league ready. I would also try to deal Rollins or Utley to LAD and get Joc Pedersen. Kendrick to Baltimore for Schoop. The Phillies have always won with bats supported by a top starter, some ok guys and a solid bullpen. Why Ruben went for the 3 aces when it was statistically probable that one would get hurt is a mystery.

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      1. Great current value and unless you want to offer him a big deal, he’s at the height of his value right now with 1 more year of team control in 2014.

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        1. Not that I’m necessarily advocating trading him…just explaining why one might want to do it.

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    2. Teams get desperate at the trade deadline, some tend to overpay because other teams make moves.The thought of World Series ring tend to make some GMs jump on trades

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      1. Do you think BlueHen!
        Aren’t we glad Ruben never paniked and over paid at the deadline! (tic)

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  13. I think The Phillies will be in a great position to have another 5+ year run starting in 2015, and the way things shake out in the next month and a half with trades will decide if they will be just good (contending through september) or great in that time frame. They will have plenty of money to spend with the new TV deal on vets to round out the roster and there are some exciting prospects who will be ready around that time to build around. In 2015 into 2016, The Phillies will have guys like Franco, Quinn, and Biddle in the majors. There is another tier of guys who aren’t quite sure things – Gueller, Watson, Morgan, Tocci, Pujols, Cozens, Pullin, T Joseph, as well as 2013 draft picks including Sandberg, Knapp, Crawford – Who could make this team very good in that timeframe if even 3 of them work out as planned, infusing more talent onto the team in 2014 – 2018. even better if a couple guys like Asche, Cesar, Galvis, Pettibone, Ruf, Dugan, Defratus and so on work out as major league regulars.

    Now – If the Phils can pull off a few good trades at the deadline, they will have a really impressive crop of young players including the group above. Imo, everyone should be available except Hamels and D Brown. Those are two guys under team control at least through 2018 to build around. The biggest chips they have are Lee and Papelbon. Trade them both, and eat some money if necessary to improve the return. If Utley and Adams can come back from injury and put a good month together leading up to the deadline, trade them, get what you can. Others like D and M Young, Ruiz, Rollins…I dont see much value but if they can get someone decent trade them as well.

    I simply see no reason not to blow this team up, and honestly I’m rooting for the Phils to lose at this point so that Amaro doesn’t get any ideas that he should buy at the deadline. There is no reason to be depressed about it. The future is very bright for this team, and it will be even brighter if Amaro sells everything he can.

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      1. I don’t disagree with you, Amaro making these trades is worrisome. I guess I figure that he is due for some luck. Is Gillick still on the payroll as an advisor?

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  14. Brainstorming on how to trade Howard . . . who says no in this trade?

    Phillies get:
    – Josh Beckett, Zach Lee, and Joc Pederson from the Dodgers
    – Jonathan Schoop from the Orioles

    Orioles get:
    – Ryan Howard from Phillies
    – Lots of Cash from the Dodgers (at least half of Howard’s contract?)

    Dodgers get:
    – Cliff Lee

    My rationale:

    Orioles: They need a DH (currently it’s Danny Valencia) and Schoop is more of a B prospect. Howard at a discount is a huge upgrade over Valencia and if breaks down completely in 2 years, they aren’t paying that much.

    Phillies: Unload Howard’s contract. Get 1 really good prospect and 2 good ones in return. Beckett is at least a semi usable arm and only signed through 2014.

    Dodgers: Get Cliff Lee. They’ve been willing to take on money and getting rid of Beckett’s contract semi offsets Lee’s and allows them to take on part of Howard’s contract. I’d be willing to send them a Sebastian Valle or a Kyle Simon type player as well.

    As Michael Scott would say: It’s a win, win, win situation.

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    1. Not bad Forrest. Not bad at all. I’m trying to be critical but don’t see anything here that’s unrealistic. Not that it’s likely to happen, but I’ve contended all along that we don’t trade Hamels or Lee with the caveat that Lee is movable is we can somehow include Howard. I like your creativity though I’m certain that other posters will rip this apart. Interesting thoughts though

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    2. Baltimore wouldn’t do that deal. They let Mark Reynolds walk for a lot less money in the offseason. They’re not going to want to pay Howard $12.5mm a year his 33-36 seasons. It’s going to be dicey if Howard is even worth a roster spot in the last 2 years of his contract.

      The Dodgers are crazy, but they do that deal either. If you count the $12.5mm towards Howard’s deal, they be paying Cliff Lee for $115mm (!) for his age 35-37 seasons AND they’d be giving up two of their better prospects.

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      1. but they are also unloading Beckett’s contract. Beckett gets paid $15 mil through next year, so it’s an extra 35 mil through 2015 for lee and they have a 12.5 mil buyout option after that. It’s pricey, but they haven’t been afraid to take on payroll. Baseball America didn’t even have Zach Lee in their top 100 and where are they gonna play Pederson with Puig, Kemp, Crawford, and Ethier? It’s absolutely alot, but don’t underestimate how badly the dodgers want to win

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      2. and maybe Baltimore doesn’t do that or we have to accept a lesser prospect. We complain about Howard but if his contract where half as much as it is, that’s a little different. Also, if I’m the Orioles, I look at the A.L. East and the American league and think that this year is my chance. Boston is doing well, but this is not a great Boston team, new york has all sorts of issues. I’d rather take a chance before Myers develops in Tampa.

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        1. I could maybe see it if the Dodgers were playing well, but they’re 29-39. Lee probably won’t make much of a difference this year for them. If you’re the Dodgers and you already have Greinke and Kershaw, wouldn’t you rather spend an obscene amount on Cano in the offseason instead of Lee and keep your prospects for another move?

          I also think you’re overestimating Howard’s value a little for future seasons. If he were a free agent this offseason, he’d probably get a one or two year deal for $6-10mm a year. I just don’t think the Orioles would want to overpay for him when there’s a glut of similar free agents coming up this year that probably be better value.

          It’s a cool scenario though.

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  15. Do not overlook the Pirates as a potential trade partner. There is a lot of talent in their system and a strong desire to win now after so many losing seasons.

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    1. There is no way the Pirates are going to take on a big contract like Howard, Papelbon, or Lee. They would possibly take Rollins if the Phillies pick up most of his contract, but it is unlikely Rollins would wave his no trade clause. No one else the Phillies would have to offer meets a need for the Pirates.

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      1. I find it hard to imagine Cliff Lee at a 3 year deal basically doesnt fit the Pirates. The Pirates have money they just dont spend it. Cliff Lee is actually a good fit for a team looking for an ace but dont want to be locked up as long as they are going for in free agency.

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        1. There is no way the Pirates take on a significant portion of Lee’s salary. They are paying Burnett and Rodriguez $8 million a piece. The Yankees are paying Burnett 8.5 million and the Astros are paying Rodriguez $5 million (more than they are paying anyone on there own roster). Whether the Pirates have the money is moot because there is no way they are going to commit $75+ million to Lee, especially since their entire payroll is less than $80 million this year.

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    2. There is no one on the Phillies who will wave their no-trade clause to go to Pittsburgh.

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      1. Really? I’m not a Pirates fan but you go to a beautiful ballpark, a chance to end years of futility, and a team that actually has a lot of talent.

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  16. “The most frustrating thing is that the Phillies ownership obviously care about how much money they spend. This is ironic. Because there is no better dollar for dollar investment than amateur talent.”

    This is true. However, the “economics of MLB” are not public. What seems to be true is often not so due to a lack of public disclosure.

    The Phillies don’t operate like the Yankees and Red Sox. They are extremely tight with The Godfather Bud. The Phillies aren’t tight with Bud because they like the smell of his anal fumes.

    Think “Revenue Sharing”. It’s a big stinking pot of corruption. The Phillies don’t pay into the pot, they receive money from it. The Yankees unhappiness with this arrangement is what lead to Bobby Abreu being given to the Yankees for nothing.

    The media in Philadelphia simply looked away and lied to the public about this transaction. They knew then and they know now. They will not tell the people.
    ;

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    1. “The Phillies don’t pay into the pot”

      Of course they do. Every team contributes and every team gets a distribution. Reading is fun

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  17. I had this dream that the Phillies traded Papelbon to Houston for Cosart, Singleton, Santana and Zeid, but then I woke up and realized that no team would be dumb enough to trade those prospects!! The past year and a half of watching Phillies hitting has been another bad dream!! The 1947 Phillies were more fun to watch than this bunch of underachievers.

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    1. Santana was the worst part of the trade. And to include him a lost of PTBNL was just moronic. There is nowhere for Singleton to play with the Phillies until 2017. Cosart has great stuff, but can he stay as a starter? If he goes the bullpen he’s much less valuable. Zeid was a total throw in.

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  20. Just a few questions for those wanting to trade away Papelbon and Lee. In order to stay competitive without blowing up the team and being stuck with the growing pains of a young club:
    1. Who are the candidates to replace Papolbon at this time? Find me one on the club or in free agency next year. Only then will I entertain a trade.
    2. Same goes for Lee. Who steps in as # 1B / # 2 starter and gives you the best chance to win?
    3. Who replaces Rollins production at SS everyday? Not Galvis. Which SS can we trade for to replace 20HR 65RBIs and 30 SB?

    With that said, the Phillies made some off season signings this year to help them unload in this situation and allow for bring up some young players to audition for next year. So here it goes:
    1. Trade M. Young – his production is easily replaceable and you may want to audition Galvis there to see if he can be an everyday player. I say no, bring up Asche to the majors and leave Galvis as a super utility player. Target team: Baltimore
    2. Trade K. Kendrick – his value is at an all time high right now. This is a one year performance trap for a long term contract. A playoff contending team will overpay for him. Sell High. Target teams: Arizona, Baltimore
    3. Trade D. Young – he is a great rental for a playoff team. His numbers are slowly going up as the season progresses. This is addition by subtraction. You get to see what D. Ruff can do with more ABs in MLB. This evaluation is critical with minor league OF’s starting to emerge this year and are candidates for Spring Training next year. Target team: Texas
    4. Trade S. Valle – Probably an off-season trade or supplement at the deadline. Unless he can move to the OF, there is simply no room for him.

    Other Considerations: Tyson Gillies pulling it together for an OF spot next year. C. Hernandez needs another year to develop some power before replacing C. Utley. Revere seems ready to own the leadoff spot, relieving us of Rollins there.

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    1. I have a hard time seeing Rollins producing 20 HR, 65 RBIs, or 30SB this season or in any year the rest of his career.

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    2. John, imo If you trade D. Young, Valle and M, Young, you would get nothing, they have no trade value.and gillies is terrible. The outfiled hope imo. is that Dugan gets to reading fast, and shows enough to get a big league invite next spring.

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    3. I agree that there is no good immediate replacement for Papelbon or Lee, but even with them you are looking at a .500 or worse Phillies team in 2014. So, they go. We need the young talent they can bring. Same with Utley. This is our second severe patch-and-fill around the old core season and it is clear to me that this approach hasn’t and won’t work. Of the trades you list, only Kendrick has any value at all and he won’t bring a lot back.

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    4. There are no candidates to replace Papelbon or Lee.

      Trading them for a wheelbarrow full of dog feces means rebuilding for TEN YEARS.

      Anyone who says it will be less time than that is lying or incompetent.

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  21. I haven’t had much time to comment lately. But the following sums up my thinking on the state of the organization going forward:

    (1) There are no quick fixes. The team needs to do a better job going forward of drafting and developing players, while not sacrificing the payroll advantage that they have over most franchises. The latter means less than it used to but is still important.

    (2) In the short run, that means trying to remain competitive without sacrificing the long term. So no fire sale. But certainly initiate a gentle transition.

    (3) They need impact players. “Average” players have value, but, especially for a team with some financial flexibility, average players are not that hard to get. Where are they going to get the impact players? Draft and development. With one possible exception, the notion that such players are going to be obtained by trading veterans is a pipe dream.

    (4) The possible exception is Lee. Opinions seem very divided about the return on him if traded. Certainly if traded the team should pay much of his future salary to maximize prospect return. I’d be reluctant to trade him because I DO think the team needs to be at least somewhat competitive in the short run to maintain attendance and for other reasons, but if the haul in prospects is good enough then pull the trigger. (Obviously if a team is desperate enough to send us a possible impact player for other veterans, by all means go for it. IMO very unlikely.)

    (5) The next FA market is poor. Last year I was willing to give up the pick to sign a FA, but not next year. Probably need to look for a transitional option in RF that does not require us to lose a pick.

    (6) Some positional musings:

    (a) Catcher – Joseph still a prospect, but we’re looking at 2015 at the earliest and he is far from a sure thing then. In the mean time, bring back Ruiz on a one year deal or maybe even Kratz. Neither is exciting, but no free agents worth signing. Rupp is a possible transitional option as well, but IMO not a terribly exciting one. His ceiling is likely a below average regular for a couple of seasons.

    (b) First base – stuck with Howard. At least lately he has been hitting a bit better.

    (c) Second base – Utely back. Not sold on Hernendez & even at best they would lose a ton of offense, which they can’t afford right now. After Utley … maybe a transitional cheap FA, then … Pullin? Not an organizational strength at this point.

    (d) Shortstop – Rollins back. I’m open minded about Galvis, and said a few weeks ago that, if he kept his decent hitting up, maybe Rollins ends up on the trade market. Well Galvis hasn’t kept up his hitting (and Rollins is playing well). However, unlike the second base situation, I think it’s possible Galvis might be the medium term answer at SS. In the long run, hopefully one of the prospects.

    (e) Third base – Asche in 2014, Franco in 2015.

    (f) Outfield – Brown and Revere for the foreseeable future. Yes, I have reservations about Revere but he has been fine for the past month and half. Leaves one opening. Cheap FA in the short run; maybe Dugan in the medium to long run. Further out there are obviously other options in the system, but who knows who will make it.

    (g) Rotation – probably a relative organizational strength. Build around Hamels. Biddle in 2014 or 2015. Morgan if he recovers from his arm woes as soon as 2014. I’d try to retain Kendrick. Lee until his contract runs out, unless he is traded. Pettibone as a 4th/5th starter.

    (h) Relievers – the mediocre performance of the home grown relievers as a group, combined with the IMO likely low trade return for Papelbon. mean that he’ll likely play out most of his contract in Philadelphia. There are a couple of interesting arms in the pipeline.

    At best it will be a rocky couple of years. But no reason that the team has to fall off the cliff, as some fear, and by 2016 they could be on the upswing again.

    Of course, all of this assumes a front office who can rebuild effectively. I have my doubts. Even as strong a critic of Amaro as myself must concede that he has some strengths; unfortunately, they are more oriented to adding veteran pitching pieces to a contender than rebuilding a team with young talent.

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    1. You and I are in almost complete agreement. The one major difference is that I would trade Rollins and start Galvis at short. Not that Galvis is better at this point but i would start there with the “gentle transition”. I would also trade Papalbon. Despite not having a ready replacement, he would offer a good return and is over paid for a .500 team. Asche/Frandsen platoon at 3rd next year. I’d only bring Ruiz back if it was for 2 years or (preferably) less.

      It’s becoming clear to me that finding a good RF via trade (Papalbon?) should be the club’s #1 priority.

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    2. Obviously the talk about the Tiger’s need for a reliever is intriguing. He’s probably the one guy, in addition to Lee, who could bring a potential impact player in return. At this point, I would hope the Phillies are talking with the Tigers, and it should go without saying that I’d trade Papelbon in a heartbeat – even pay most of his remaining salary if necessary – if we could get two of even one of the Tiger’s top prospects in return. But I remain somewhat skeptical that it will happen.

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      1. Assuming they stay out of the high end FA market this offseason (which I agree they should) eating a big chunk of his salary shouldn’t be a problem financially. As I advocate keeping Lee, Paps is the only trade chip the club shouhas that can get a RF in return (though I too am skeptical about the Tigers parting with the package being discussed yesterday).

        And just to clarify my previous post, I only advocate trading Rollins if the club is fairly certain of Utley’s return. A middle INF of Galvis and Hernandez would be far too much of a drop off offensively, even assuming an upgrade in RF.

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        1. I go back and forth on Galvis/Rollins. The fact that Galvis is sitting at .209/.273/.372 at the moment gives me pause.

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          1. Me as well. I just don’t think Galvis/Hernandez is viable offensively. It either has to be Rollins/Galvis or Galvis/Utley IMO.

            Though it is beginning to look like an Asche/Frandsen platoon at 3B next year could be more than just a moderate upgrade at 3B

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          2. LarrryM….’I go back and forth on Galvis/Rollins’. I am resigned to the fact that Galvis should be the starting ss….but batting in the 8th hole. As a switchy with good plate discipline, able to draw a BB, he will be an asset hitting 8th.

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            1. What’s a good walk rate? I have him around 7% and he doesn’t seem like the most patient hitter

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    3. Very thoughtful and well stated. I agree with most of this. Further comments later but agree completely that the team cannot kill the golden goose – totally rebuild and sacrifice one of their strengths as an organization – their great revenue stream.

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    4. My biggest worry is that a “gentle transition” means years of mediocrity or worse. I don’t want to go through 1984-1992 and 1994-2000 again. I’d rather be really bad for a year or two. I do understand that the impending TV deal complicates this issue.

      I think if Detroit is willing to trade Castellanos for Papelbon we have to figure out a way to work out that deal. Castellanos is the type of impact player you are talking about. Getting him would necessitate Brown to RF but at least that is better than D.Young. Not having a replacement for Papelbon would be problematic, but I think many people overvalue closers. I wonder if Smyly (another name mentioned n a possible deal) could be a transition closer for the Phillies.

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      1. I just don’t think being “really bad for a year or two” shortens the period of mediocrity. I think it may lengthen it.

        But as clarified in my follow-up comment, I agree with you about Papelbon. I would, however, take the various speculations about such a deal with a HUGE grain of salt.

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      2. “I’d rather be really bad for a year or two.”
        —————-
        But that assumes the club won’t be mediocre in years 2, 3, and 4? How do you go from “really bad” to good 1 or 2 years after bottoming out?

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        1. This would depend on a lot of what we could get back in return for the like of Utley, Rollins, and Young; possibly of the high risk/high reward category. In addition to getting some top quality for Lee and Papelbon. It would mean not keeping players off limits just so that the team can be mediocre. Throw in some high draft choices in there as well for being really bad. (And no I am not an advocate for deliberately trying to lose). It may not be a fool proof plan but maintaining the status quo means years and years of mediocrity and worse.

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          1. Not saying high draft choices aren’t helpful, but they won’t help you for 4-5 years if at all.

            You will get very little in exchange for Utley, Rollins and Young, even if you eat a ton of salary. Although Lee would likely provide a good return, propects are always a gamble (just look how little the prospects exchanged in the Lee and Halladay trades have done). And where are they going to find another pitcher of Lee’s quality? Not even Biddle’s biggest optimists claim an “Ace” ceiling and he is probably at least 4-5 years away from his prime.

            The loss in revenue that would accompany a bottoming out would far outweigh the few legit prospects and couple of high draft choices you would obtain.

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            1. I agree completely but this conversation should have been happening on this board and in the Phillies FO back in 2009 (at the latest). It clearly wasn’t.

              The Phillies have left themselves very unprepared and very bare in the farm to transition from the old core to a new core. They certainly aren’t ready to make that transition seamlessly. The new core…assuming it even exists now in the farm…is still years away.

              The Red Sox are a good example of a team that was probably following the right blueprint of proper balance over the last decade between winning and spending…but still investing for the future. That is why they were able to “re-tool” using RAJ’s term from last year to this year but for the Phillies I doubt it will be that easy or successful.

              I hope they prove me wrong.

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            2. Not true. In 2009 and 2010 in particular, we kept asking ourselves – where is the next wave of offensive players? It was clear that it was going to become a pressing issue. They didn’t address properly through drafting, trades or FA – and here we are. But, yes, many of us were apprehensive about the lack of suitable and timely replacements. But one of the biggest problems is that Ruben Amaro thinks that a guy like Delmon Young can be a good player. He thinks walks are overrated. How do you even respond to that? How do you cure stupidity?

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            3. I don’t think the problem is RAJ. I think it is Giles and Montgomery. This isn’t a rant. It is what it is. But the Phillies have never shown any urgency in the Draft on in LA in the 30 years they have owned the club.

              They found just the right mix of good scouting combined with a tremendous amount of good luck between 1996 and 2002. That is what built the Phillies core. The best core in the 30 year Giles era. That was with passing up on JD Drew and Mark Teixeira. Amazing they were able to overcome those major screwups by the FO.

              Barring another run like that in the Draft and Latin America, this franchise has never proven they can build a consistent winner outside of catching lightning in a bottle (1993).

              They can supplement the new core with Free Agency and Trades…but they can’t build the new core that way. It has to be thru the Draft and LA. We probably all agree on that part of it.

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      3. The Phillies had an opportunity to draft and sign Castellanos.

        David Montgomery was not willing to go over slot and pay him.

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    5. Larry, you take some crap on here occasionally because sometimes you lack a little tact, but I find your opinions contain an appropriate mix of optimism, skepticism, and realism. I agree with a lot of what you said, but have a few questions/comments. I agree on Utley, Rollins, and at catcher
      – Since the FA market is poor, would you consider Ruf a short term replacement in LF and move Brown to right?
      – As soon as the Phillies believe they are out of contention, the Young’s need to go (Delmon should go now). It’d be nice to give Asche a half year to get his feet wet and they need to see what they have in Ruf.
      – I’m a little more optimistic on the bullpen. If they trade Papelbon, I think De Fratus could fill in for a little. I like De Fratus, Stutes, and Diekman and with Giles potentially on the horizon, plus a starter (Martin, Colvin, Wright, Garner?) that doesn’t seem too bad.
      – Peole say Utley can’t stay healthy and they should move on. But 100 games a year from Utley is better than 150 games from most second baseman

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      1. “But 100 games a year from Utley is better than 150 games from most second baseman”

        Not when ROBBIE CANO is an option.

        And he is an option.

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        1. Is he though? I realize he’s on the market, but it’s gonna take a huge contract to land him and can we really afford to have a Cano sized contract, Howard’s contract, and Hamel’s contract (not to mention Lee’s and Papelbon’s)? Don’t get me wrong, I would love to have Cano, but unless Howard is moved, I don’t see it as a possibility

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    6. The Phillies are in this situation because they were fat, dumb, and happy during the glory years while the MLB core was young and producing. The present was so glorious they were paying attention to the future (NOW). They shortchanged spending on the draft and LA, at the same time they were trading top prospects to keep the window open, and at the same time they were losing top draft picks because they were signing free agents.

      We actually might have been able to keep Paps and Lee, or resign Utley for 3 seasons, etc, etc if they had been spending a bit more in the draft and LA even in just the 5 seasons before the slotting system went into place in 2012.

      Then instead of us talking about how we need to go trade our best players and throw in Millions of dollars to try and buy Top 25-Top 50 prospects in the minors from other teams maybe we would have had a few more in our own system.

      The worst part is that this was completely predictable.

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      1. “The worst part is that this was completely predictable.”

        I did.

        I’ve been screaming about it on the Internet for 13 years and I’ve been stomped for doing so.

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    7. I agree with everything except Papelbon, but then i think the Detroit rumors are true, because if you look at the past 5-10 years teams like Detroit do make deals like that for closers like Papelbon. I also think if you aren’t going to be a playoff team in the next two years that Papelbon’s value is greatly lessened. you can get by with a mediocre bullpen when you know you won’t make the playoffs and are only trying to remain respectable.

      I too was thinking that trading Rollins and starting Galvis may be a solution but Galvis’ slump has reminded me that his bat can be downright putrid. I just dont know if he will ever hit enough to start.

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    8. Free agent market looks GREAT.

      ROBBIE CANO and the CHOO-CHOO TRAIN.

      Couldn’t ask for more than that and only one 1st round pick for both of them.

      BARGAIN for a big bucks team like the Phillies who have $70 million left to add to the payroll.

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          1. Under the new rules you keep losing picks as you sign players, so if you sign Choo and Cano that is your first two picks, if you want someone else it is the next one, and so on.

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            1. Yeah, I get that.

              The point is that if you sign a player of this type this year there goes your 1st round pick. Then another player next year and there goes another 1st round pick. Sign them both in the same year and you lose only one 1st round pick.

              The more players of this type you sign in the same offseason the cheaper in compensation they are. The more you string it out over the years the more expensive they are.

              The Phillies have the screaming need for bats to sign more than one. If there is a third then go for him too. They have the financial means to solve their problems.

              The commitment to do so?

              Scott Rolen didn’t think so.

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            2. The signing multiple FAs in one off-season makes sense in that standpoint. If the FAs are worth signing well that’s another thing… However, should that approach happen and the Phillies lose their first two or three round picks in the 2014 draft they should bust the bank on 2014 International FA signings. There is almost definitely going to be a draft in 2015 for international players. Lose your first round/second round picks for International Players in the 2015/2016 drafts and all you’re doing is not being able to sign *ONE* of maybe the 10-20 range best talent. Instead in 2014 go out and sign 4 or 5 of the top-10 talent. Spend $10-$15m since your draft budget will be low due to losing picks.

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    2. Phillies drafted a lot of position players after focusing on it. The Phillies really think Sandberg could be a Josh Hamilton type 5 tool player

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  23. I don’t see the Phillies doing a Papelbon deal almost under any circumstances (again, don’t argue this with me, I’m not saying what I’d do or advocate, I’m telling you what I think the Phillies will or will not do). Amaro loves pitching and believes he needs to get more veterans for the bullpen, not fewer veterans. I expect the Phillies to keep Paps and seriously overspend for the bullpen next year. Is it a good idea? Almost certainly not. But since when was Ruben Amaro the king of good ideas?

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    1. More veterans? Other than giving Papelbon and Adams contracts to pitch premier innings, when has Amaro relied on veterans for those type roles?

      Lidge was extended by Gillick. Madson performed great when called upon and he was a young arm. Contreras was actually a great pickup because the Phillies identified that he would be good in a BP role and he did well up until he got injured. Baez, Qualls and Durbin were filler. I don’t think you are correct in your assessment about veteran arms. What the Phillies have lacked is quality arms, whether in the veteran mold or through the farm.

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      1. Baez, Qualls and Durbin were expensive filler. Part of the problem was how Manuel uses relievers. Romero was a LOOGY Charlie let walk too many right handed batters. Getting Contrares wasn’t bad, giving a 39 year old a two year deal was, especially when Manuel would run him out there 6 times in 8 days.

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        1. Total for those three guys was a shade over $7 million. But that wasn’t my point. They weren’t meant as stabilizers for high leverage innings. Baez and Durbin were mentioned a bunch of times as an extra coach in the pen. The problem was not those guys per se, I think the whole veteran thing gets overblown. Scott Eyre was a veteran and he had success here. Bullpens are too volatile.

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      2. As predicted, you are quarreling with my prediction about what I think the Phillies (not me, the Phillies) are going to be looking for. The Phillies have focused on getting veterans, but, aside from Papelbon (who is arguably over paid), they’ve done a pretty piss poor job of selecting the right guys. Baez, Qualls and Contreras were paid a decent, non-closer salaries for their roles. Durbin was paid pretty well this year given his position. All of those guys failed, except for Contreras. The Phils are paying a premium for Adams given his age and recent injury history. But I believe that Ruben feels that he should have added more experienced players this year and that it would have helped. Now, do I agree what I believe to be his views? No, not necessarily – like you, I agree that, rather than focusing on experience, they should be focusing on arms and ability. But one of Ruben’s biggest problems is that he doesn’t respect the aging curve, which is why he signs/acquires guys like Ibanez and M. Young, and why the team is getting worse all at once.

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        1. No. You said that the Phillies target veteran arms for the pen. I stated that isn’t the problem. The problem is that they haven’t targeted quality arms for the pen. Again, the bullpen is a bit of a crapshoot. Had Grilli been in the pen for the last 2-3 years, would you still be complaining about him as a veteran?

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          1. No again. I said that I think that Ruben currently thinks that he should have gotten more veterans for the bullpen and believes that to be his failing. I believe this is the case and I believe that he is focusing on the wrong thing (as he often does – hello
            Mr. Production” Delmon Young – how many more examples do you want of Ruben “not getting it”?). I agree with you that the issue isn’t so much veteran versus young player – it’s getting the right players. He hasn’t chosen the right veterans (as a rule) and they really have not done a good enough job developing their young relievers – who have good arms but struggle with command.

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            1. Maybe I’m missing this – what evidence do you have that he thinks that signing more veterans is his downfall. He’s averaged only one FA veteran signing for the bullpen a season. This season was 2 but the Adams deal was pretty universally praised due to the fact that Adams has been elite throughout his career (injury not withstanding) and the Phillies problems in the 8th inning last year.

              Caveat: I’m not arguing against Ruben “not getting it” as you say. I clearly understand your general feelings on the man and his regime. I’m just not seeing a correlation with what you originally said and what has been done in the bullpen. I would almost argue that the opposite is true – the Phillies have leaned on too many younger type arms (well at least this season Horst, Bastardo, Aumont as examples).

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            2. I say this for two reasons: (a) first, when in doubt, Ruben generally goes with an older veterans – whether it be on the field or the mound; (b) second, things he has said suggest to me that he regrets not having signed more veteran relievers – a problem he has openly stated, for two years now, that he should have addressed better in the off season (i.e., not through players from the farm system). Thus, on the whole, I expect, in the future, that, rather than being creative and thrifty with his bullpen, Ruben will treat the other relief roles as he has his closer’s role and now his set-up man’s role, and will throw money at the problem. The only exception is if multiple young relievers take a big step forward between now and the end of the year, which is questionable at best. Next year, I expect to see the Phillies have at least a $25-30 million bullpen (he’s probaly around $20-22 million now – I haven’t done the math). Dumb as hell? Yes. But Ruben is as Ruben does (wow, I am becoming like Larry used to be with Amaro – he has me so pissed off).

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            3. Ok. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on what they value in a reliever. I can’t see them spending that much on the pen, but if they do I will give you kudos in your prediction.

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            4. Catch, does the GM manage the players on the field and strategy? How do other teams with less talent get better results- by having more creative managers and pitching coaches. The current team is too old, slow(Howard’s 3B running blunder), has become a base to base team and does not get strategic outs(moving runners). The fact is that injuries have really hurt this team and Charlie deserves criticism for not playing young players which is why he left Cleveland. Ruben deserves blame for listening to Charlie and trying to to keep the old gang together for two last runs. The bright spot is that we do have some good young players coming up which will reduce the transition period.

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      3. “when has Amaro relied on veterans for those type roles?”

        You forgot the hanging CHADS, Qualls and Durbin.

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    2. Also had the Phillies promoted Jason Grilli in 2011, he would’ve been a great stabilizer to the pen over the past 2 years. And he was technically a veteran arm at that point.

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    3. I can’t agree with you catch. If Dombrowski calls and says I’ll give you Garcia or Castellanos for Papelbon right now he does that deal. He doesn’t even blink.

      Heck Cherington might give up Brentz for Papelbon either way you are going to get a RH corner with high upside, ready to play now and controllable for many years to come. There is no way he doesn’t do that deal if it is put in front of him.

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      1. I hope you’re right, but I fear you might not be. I think Ruben absolutely feels he needs a shut down closer, which is why he paid Papelbon over market AND surrendered a top draft pick that he could have kept if he had signed Papelbon just a week later. That is his mind set and his level of desperation regarding the closer’s role. I don’t think he does any prospect deal for Papelbon unless he gets another guy in return who can step into a closer’s role immediately (which will reduce the value of the rest of the trade package) or if he swings a separate trade for at least a serviceable closer through the end of the year. Again, these are NOT things I think or would do. You vastly overestimate Ruben’s level of sophistication.

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        1. Well if that’s the case, that is a mentality instilled in him by Gillick. Remember Gillick resigned Lidge in the midst of his historic 2008.

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          1. Gillick did his share of dumb things (the G. Gonzalez/G. Floyd for F. Garcia trade still hurts!), but he also had an incredible knack of finding bargain players too who helped fill out the puzzle. He got Matt Stairs, Jamie Moyer, J.C. Romero, Scott Eyre, and Jayson Werth, to name a few. All for a song and all of whom played a critical role on the 2008 team. Ruben’s biggest under the radar deals, in 5 years mind you, are Pedro Martinez (that was a good pick-up) and John Mayberry. You might count Erik Kratz and Contreras (before he signed his bigger contract) too. Not very good, on the whole.

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        2. Gillick also signed Tom Gordon as one of his first moves as Phillies GM. Hmm, maybe GMs in general overvalue veteran, closer types?

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        3. Possibly but I don’t think a deal involving Papelbon is overly sophisticated especially if it involves Castellanos or Garcia.

          Where it could become a lot more sophisticated is any deal involving Lee.

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      2. I’m with Catch. RAJ is still in denial and wants his closer for another run next season.

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    1. I liked that article however, some of the CF options he talked about weren’t ever mentioned as being part of the Phillies plans. Mostly because they were signed prior to 2012 when Vic was patrolling center.

      The OF situation is truly a mind boggler.

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      1. True, but I think his point is that they should have been talked about. In other words, good GMs plan several years in advance and Amaro should have known the poor FA OF market on the horizon and that they were unlikely to re-sign Vic. It just seems like every offseason he is only concered about that particulalr year- a strategy (or lack of one) that the club is now paying for as Murph points out.

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        1. The article was full of theoretical possibilities that could have been but Murphy twisted it around to try to prove his own beliefs. None of the CF’s mentioned has stood out so far and the GM’s job is to put the players in place for the manager. Charlie Manuel was successful in 2008 to 2009 but failed in managing strategy in 2010-11. Murphy also neglected to point out that M. Young was keeping the seat warm for Asche next year and Ben Revere has actually played much better lately. The only thing I can agree with Murphy is Howard’s contract and signing Delmon Young. The fate of this team will rest on how they do when Chase Utley gets back and if everyone else can stay healthy. No wonder no one wants to talk to the Philadelphia press.

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      1. Yeah. He is a smart guy, but the more he talks the dumber he sounds. Yes, M Young is keeping the seat warm for Asche, but Frandson or Galvis could have done that equally well. What I think it comes down to is that RAJ and the owners think that guys like the Youngs can sell tickets, because the casual fan recognizes the name and the past glories, but doesn’t realize how much the star has fallen. As someone else pointed out, both Youngs and Revere are performing about as one could realistically have expected, based upon what they’ve done the past couple years. But… go back a few years and rave about the past glories and honors and you might con a fan into buying a season ticket. Revere didn’t actually play CF last season, neither Young actually played in the position RAJ slotted them into, but all those things are projectible with a little hand waving. Cholly loves his vets, so the same announcers/media/GM who would complain about Brown’s and Ruf’s sucky fielding can be counted on to rave about the glovework of the YOungs. It is a ticket selling machine and our media announcers sell what management wants them to sell.

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    1. Rangers feel a need to get his bat into the lineup, it will be similar to what the Phillies will do with Roman Quinn after next year..

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      1. just stop. I like Quinn, but offensively he’s not setting the world on fire. After next year he’ll be finishing up High A ball and with a good year a little bit of Reading. They don’t move him to the outfield to get his bat in the lineup before he’s played a full season of AA.

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      2. Forget to take your meds or still not getting help?

        You have to be psychotic to compare Quinn’s bat to Profar’s.

        Quinn is not yet a “bat” at any position unless he can learn to catch, then his bat would project as a backup catcher.

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    1. Its a shame the people in charge don’t understand something as obvious as this. Delmon Young continuing to get starts is an indictment of the GM and the Manager.

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  28. Michael Young (and dare I say RHoward) padding the stats leading up the deadline. Probably the best thing that has happened this season is their recent performance

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