Today is 40 man roster deadline day

Today is the last day for teams to add minor leaguers to the 40 man roster and protect them from the Rule 5 draft held at next month’s winter meetings. The Phillies will have a few interesting decisions of course, and I’ll update this space when everything is decided. As of right now, the 40 man roster looks like this:

Catchers (3): Ruiz, Kratz, Schneider
Infielders (10): Thome, Howard, Utley, H Garcia, C Hernandez, Polanco, Valdez, Galvis, Rivero, M Martinez
Outfielders (6): Bowker, Brown, Francisco, Mayberry, Victorino, Pence

Pitchers (16): Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Worley, Blanton, Kendrick, Papelbon, Bastardo, Stutes, Schwimer, Herndon, Contreras, De Fratus, Savery, JC Ramirez, Mathieson

That means they are at 35. Obviously a few more MLB players will be added (OF, 3B possibly, SS for sure) but they still have plenty of room, and if need be, they can remove someone else from the roster. I’m looking at you, John Bowker.

So, the update will go here after its all settled. You can reference this post from last month where we talked about guys who could be protected. I think its a lock the Phillies will protect Valle, Aumont, Gillies, and Jiwan James. That would take the roster to 39, which gives them room to add one guy in the Rule 5 draft, assuming no other big league signings happen before then. But again, there are guys currently on the 40 man who are candidates to be outrighted off the roster. We’ll see what happens.

Update, 1:15 PM —> The Phillies protected Aumont, Valle, Gillies, and Jacob Diekman, bringing the roster to 39 right now. That leaves them one 40 man spot for the Rule 5 draft, barring any other moves.

102 thoughts on “Today is 40 man roster deadline day

  1. Bad enough Schneider who I have thought well of last season but why is Bowker even listed.
    I sure hope he is taken off but after the Schneider signing who the hell knows. Maybe some team might need more Ks and steal these two,

  2. So we can add the four PP said, and 1 more correct? Then, after the R5 draft, we can designate/outright/etc. as necessary to make room for future signings, right?

    I always need to review how this stuff goes.

  3. Since Ruben decided to offer arbitration to the 3 in question, and none of the larger salaries can be easily moved , apparently,don’t see any need to remove players already on.
    Aumont and Valle that’s it. that takes it to 37.
    Then they can add MLB type players to 39. That’s it. Take a Rule 5 player.
    Gillies, though appearing on the AA roster for a time, has not mastered the AA level. He has barely played at the AA level. James has not yet appeared at the AA level. If a team wants to pay $50,000 to draft them , carry them all season as a little used back-up, while the skills likely erode, then good for them. Don’t see it.

    Players placed on the reserve list by today’s deadline, before or after the Rule 5 draft can be removed according to the procedures outlined in the CBA.

  4. Once a player has been added to the 40 man roster he cannot be removed without exposing him to other teams. To be removed, the player would have to outrighted/designated for assignment and could then be claimed by other teams. If not claims, he can then be assigned to the minors.

    This is what happened with the immortal Rizz last season. Fortunately for the Phillies, no one claimed him and he ended up in Reading anyway..

  5. They knew they would lose Diekman if left unprotected. No way anybody would touch Gillies so he is a surprise addition to me. Valle and Aumont were no brainers. I would have picked James before Gillies though both batting below 150 in games I have attended. I can’t see anybody stashing a Gillies or James in any case for a season in the majors.

  6. It wouldn’t shock me if a team like the Astros would be willing. Not likely, but it seems like an unnecessary risk since there are a couple dead weight guys on there

    1. I think Jame’s upside at this point is a 4th outfielder. That minimizes the small risk even further. That risk STILL might be too high, given the “dead weight” (though there isn’t much of that), but see 3up3kkk’s point above – once he’s on there, he’s on there for good if they don’t want to lose him. And he’s still probably a couple years away, even as a 4th outfielder. So no, I don’t think leaving him off is a mistake.

      1. If Ruben left Tyson Gillies off the 40, and he was, by some slimchance, selected by another team, would that further devalue and tarnish the Lee trade with Seattle?
        Could it be possible that Ruben Amaro would put a person on the 40 to justify a past decision that now looks fairly dubious!

    1. I think so. And I dont like it.

      Re Gillies. It kind of makes sense. he’s the exact type of player that a team can use sparingly as a late inning deference replacement or pinch runner. They can then send him to AAA the following year. Still, I would tend to agree that there is little risk in any team pulling the trigger on him. I would have left James and Gillies unprotected and added Cloyd to the list. There’s a few other guys who could have been exposed as well, none moreso than Bowker. Exactly why is he using up a 40-man spot? Won’t he now have to pass thru waivers?

      1. But Gillies has not even done anything at Double A. Granted he had injury and other problems but he has looked completely overmatched since coming to the Phillies. I think he needs at least two more years in minors and is high risk even at that point due to the nature of his leg problems.
        I do think Cloyd will be taken.

  7. Contrary to comments above, i do think someone will select James and stash him for a year. Guys that can run and play defense, and James can do both, are able to sit for a year and at least provide some value. i would hate to lose james will protecting Bowker also. The Phils will still need 2 more spots though because they’re going to sign a SS, an improved utility guy and a lefty hitting outfielder so Bowker will get cut soon plus someone else. Do we have a list of the guys that will be exposed?

    1. BJ, why would a MLB team pick up Jiwan James when he still is in High A Ball and Tyler Cloyd was not that great in the AFL.

      1. He has a high upside. Everth Cabrera got picked from Low A a few years ago. I’m not saying he will stay on the team all year but I think there is a good chance he will get taken.

        1. E. Cabrera is a SS, was capable of playing adequate defense or better at time of that draft and an opening to start as SS at MLB level. He did good his drafted year and then went backwards. SS is a position of shortage, OF not so much.

    2. Tyler Cloyd is not the profile of a Rule V pick. he is a low upside, keep proving himself, kind of guy. You don’t waste a roster spot on a guy whose upside is swingman/long reliever (not that I see Herndon as anything more, but I bet the phillies did/do, with his mid 90s power sinker).

      James is too far away to be in much danger of being picked (though I’d be higher on him than Cloyd). He’d hit about .180 in the bigs right now.

    3. James already lost 2 years of development trying to be a pitcher. Losing a 3rd doesn’t make much sense. But stranger things have happened. Cloyd would be a very good choice for some team. He’s head and shoulders above where Monasteros was when the Dodgers picked him. If he is picked and, for some reason, offered back, then we should take him back.

      1. One difference bewteen Monasteros and Cloyd as Rule V pick-ups, and correct me if I am wrong….but Cloyd will be 25 in May, wasn’t Monasteros younger when the Dodgers selected him?

        1. I checked into it, Monasterios was 23 when he was selected in the Rule V Draft and then turned 24 the following March. Cloyd will be 24 for this years draft and will turn 25 in May. Not a bad difference at all, I think he will get picked.

  8. Don’t think there is much chance that James gets selected because he really doesn’t possess a tool that is considered ++ that would cause a team to take a chance, nor does he play a key defensive position of value like catcher or SS.

    Most teams have a guy or two like James already in their system.

    1. Yes he does, he’s a ++ defender and CF is a very key defensive position. I think there’s a great chance that a team takes him solely for his defense a baserunning–probably not a contending team, since he won’t add much with the bat this year. Then again, we held Martinez all season, so who knows.

      I think this is a mistake. I would rather outright Bowker, Mathieson, or Rivero.

  9. I forsee Bowker, Mathieson, Francisco, Kratz, Valdez, Herndon being exposed in that order if the need arises. Basically means Bowker and Mathieson are likely history and Francisco may be a nontender.

    Gillies should have been left exposed as he would not likely be picked. Cloyd in my opinion has a greater chance.

  10. Based on what I’ve seen, not protecting James makes sense. He is fast, but far from a polished base stealer — he got caught quite a bit last year, if my memory is correct. I didn’t see him play last year, but I saw him in Lakewood two years ago, and he was not at all polished at the plate. He just seems far too raw to be able to stick on a ML roster.

        1. Thats right I was mistaken because I was thinking literal years and 2 years ago was 2009. Either way he isn’t going to get picked anyway. What is the likelyness of Cisco getting he had a pretty good year numbers wise.

  11. I think we need to be realistic about Cloyd. His fastball is 87-90 and its straight. His secondary pitches are average. He held his own this year, but he’s a 5th starter/swing man, and guys like that are fairly easy to find. If he gets picked, good luck to him, if he doesn’t, the Phillies have another year to look at him. He’s not someone worth losing sleep over, in my opinion.

    Jiwan James is a tougher case. The upside is there, but he’s still 2-3 years away from being MLB ready. If a team takes him and stashes him, it could push back his timetable even more, and he’ll only have 3 option years before he has to stay on the 25 man roster.

    1. Thank you James, people need to relax. Jiwan isn’t getting picked. I am worried about JC Ramierez. Someone will turn him into a power reliever like he should be and he will excel.

  12. I knew there was no way in hell the Phils add James—he is the most overated player in the history of this board!!

    1. No he’s not. Far from it.

      He’s overrated here a little bit but there’s some guys who you’d think were destined for the Hall of Fame.

      I don’t know how much he’s overrated. I think as it stands right now, it’s a stretch to suggest he’s a starting centerfielder but he’s a breakout season away from putting his tools together and becoming a top prospect.

    1. I did once post that i thought the roster would be better served with him over Martinez. He is a better fielder at all 3 outfield positions and can play a little infield although not as well as Martinez. Much better hitter,more power and better runner. Relatively faint praise but I will stand by it.

      1. Grant you that…he is an above average outfielder….some say MLB caliber. IMO if I were in Derrick Mitchell’s shoes…come January 2012, my butt would be in Clearwater and I also would pick up a first basemen’s mitt and a catcher’s mitt and seek out some guidance in the nuances of those positions. May be the quickest way to the majors for him at this point.

  13. My rough count only shows 22-23 guys I think have a shot at opening up the year on the big club, based upon the truthiness of Amaro’s statement Brown will not get above AAA this year. That means at least two, if not three, more guys will be added to the 40 man before the year starts.

    As stated, Bowker is a no-brainer but who else could be moved off to make room for the eventual starting SS and possible adds to the bullpen/bench?

    1. i believe he is eligible because even though he didn’t play in ’08 it still counts as a year in the Phillies system.

  14. Maybe I’m missing something, but isn’t James eligible for the minor league portion of the draft. Meaning any minor league team can just select him and keep him?

        1. Yea, I just learned that teams can do that at this point in the offseason.

          Basically, in the minor league portion of the Rule 5 draft, any minor league team can select any player that is on a roster below their level. So if Lehigh wanted to Mets’ Jefry Marte (who is rumored to have been left off the AAA roster) then they can select him.

          Because James will probably be added to the AAA roster, only major league teams can select him in the Rule 5

    1. Every season this minor league portion of the draft comes up. It is not a factor.
      Look at all the players in the minor league system.
      Remove all the players on the 40 man roster.
      Remove all the players who don’t have enough service time for the Rule 5 Draft eligibility .
      There are very few players left at this point.
      They can place 38 players on the AAA roster.
      They can place 37 players on the AA roster.
      They can protect anyone from the minor league portion they wish to protect.
      A player not protected in the minor league portion is someone they don’t want and basically put up for sale.
      A player on AAA roster, AA roster, and not protected can be selected in MLB draft for $50,000.
      A player on AA roster or not protected and selected in AAA portion of draft goes for $25,000.

      A player not protected on MLB, AAA, or AA rosters and selected in the AA portion goes for $12,500.

  15. “Free agent catcher Ryan Doumit has reached an agreement on a one-year, $3 million contract with the Minnesota Twins, said his agent, Paul Cobbe. ”
    A whole 2 million above Schneider I have a headache. The worse part is we will never know what kind of twister thought pattern is in play here.

    1. Who is to say Doumit had a willingness to play with the Phillies. The time he’d get on our team is probably a heck of a lot less than what he’d get with the Twins

  16. Phils just got screwed by the new CBA. Madson is no longer a Type A, so we won’t get a 1st round pick. Since we signed Papelbon before the CBA, we still surrender ours.

  17. A rumor that is painful if true. If true, it means that, by rushing to sign Papelbon, the Phillies lost a first round pick they otherwise could have retained if they had just waited a little bit. This is so damned frustrating!!!!

    “Under the new CBA, teams that sign the remaining Type A relievers will not be forced to surrender draft picks, a source tells Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (via Twitter). The teams that sign those relievers and certain other Type A free agents will not forfeit draft picks but the teams that lose those players will still receive compensatory picks (from Twitter).

    This means teams can sign Ryan Madson, Francisco Rodriguez, Heath Bell, and other top relievers this offseason without penalty. The measure is not retroactive, however, meaning that the Phillies will still surrender their first-round pick for signing Jonathan Papelbon. For a full list of this offseason’s free agents, including their Type A/B designation, check out MLBTR’s free agent tracker.

    Furthermore, the new CBA will do away with the Elias rankings altogether starting next season, Rosenthal tweets. Under the new system, the top free agents will be subject to compensation if teams make them qualifying offers north of $12MM.”

    1. Yeah this is far from a fair ruling. Different rules in the same offseason don’t make sense. Not to mention there are other teams who were counting on the current system to be upheld for this season when they were in trade discussions and other such things last season.

  18. If they get a compensatory pick for Madson then it would probably be in the 30’s anyway. Right? Just won’t get say Boston’s pick if they sign Madson?

    1. Instead of getting a pick around #24-#25, we’ll get a pick in the mid 30s-40s probably…depending on how the rankings/signings of FAs turn out.

      There’s a pretty large talent gap between mid-20s and mid-40s.

    1. The Phillies have been one of the more active teams this winter and no it is not the offseason from Hades.

  19. Do you see Schneider as a sensation? Refute a statement don’t attach. But then again nice cover name.

    1. That’s not what “sensationalist” means.

      The poster’s point was that up through now this off-season, the front office has signed the best FA reliever on the market, re-signed a backup catcher who is admittedly awful but whose intangibles they like and we, by definition, cannot ascertain, and kicked the tires on probably the two highest-reward plays out there (Cespedes and Grady Sizemore).

      In what way does what I described above sound like “the off-season from hell?” That they didn’t go out and get Joe Mauer to start the 20 or 30 games or so the backup C is going to enter every season? That they didn’t immediately re-sign Rollins, Oswalt and Madson (from the same crew always complaining about how “old” this team is, presumably)? Or–heaven forbid–that they have yet to trade Brown, Rizzotti/Overbeck/Mitchell, and LaMar’s old scouting notebooks for David Wright?

      *That’s* what a sensationalist is, and it’s all over the Phillies blogs this off-season. Grow up, people.

  20. Rich…thank you for some semblance of sanity. The anti-Amaro crowd will go nuts over this but in reality it will mean little and here is why. Another agreement that MLB just finalized is that teams now have a limit to what they can spend on the Top 10 rounds of the draft…yes, teams from the Royals to the Phillies all can spend only the same amount.

    So, this means that the Phils might just make a tough sign pick in the 8th round a very good offer with the money they saved in the first round by not having a draft pick. I mean, does anyone think Singleton wasn’t really a first round talent even though he wasn’t picked until the 7th round? Or Cosart, picked in the 38th round? Or Pettibone?

    Relax, nowheels, your “the sky is falling” attitude is quite over reactionary and unjust. For one thing, the Phils will still get a compensation pick at somewhere like #40 or so and despite what you insist, there often times isn’t a difference between #25 and #40. It depends on who you pick and why.

    Unless you still believe that Hewitt was a better pick than was Brown simply because Hewitt was picked in the first round and Brown in the 20th round. Or that you honestly think Madson is a better closer than is Papelbon? I don’t.

    And if you have a chance to sign a Jonathan Papelbon you don’t wait to see if and when a CBA is going to be finalized, you get the deal done.

    And I think you are wrong about Schneider also. My gosh, for 800,000, and given the fact that Worley loves pitching to him, he is well worth it. And by the way, as someone who followed Doumit because I thought he would be a good fit, trust me…he was not coming to Philadelphia.

    With all this said, I still believe there is a large contingent of anti-Amaro people out there who will make much more of this that is really there. Because it makes them feel better, not because they are correct.

    1. I consider Papelbon almost a lateral move. So what else can we hand our hat on.
      On Doumit the job of the Gm is to convince a player to do what you want. Or are you telling me Doumit wouldn’t want to catch this staff. Please no more weak excuses,

      1. I don’t agree with you about Doumit. Doumit wanted a 1 year deal to re establish his value which means he is looking for a place where he will get a good bit of playing time. This would not be the Phillies. Not to mention if the Phillies really are not wanting to go over the luxury tax then that 2.2 mill savings will probably mean something. This is assuming that the Phillies wanted Doumit at all though and there are reasons to suspect they didn’t because he sucks as a catcher.

        1. That he sucks as a catcher is the real key with Doumit. Why would they want to pay $3m for a back-up catcher who is terrible at the position? Doumit is a good bat but teams are reluctant to use their backup catcher as a PH anyway so he would be wasted $$$.

          With that being said, I can’t say I’m thrilled with Schneider being the choice although at $800,000, he is a cheap option.

  21. I don’t think its an “anti Amaro” sentiment as much as it is frustration with how the new CBA affects the Phillies, and to sign a closer who will pitch roughly 4.5% of your team’s innings. Especially when you had talent in house that could have done an adequate job, or there were other cheaper options out there. To give up a 1st round pick where it can add as much as a loss of 1-2 wins is a lot of value to lose even though it may not seem that way. I think Amaro has made some great moves, signing Halladay and Lee, but he also does some questionable things and to me (not that I know what goes on) doesn’t seem to place a great deal of importance on the draft, the best source of acquiring talent.

  22. Doesn’t place a great deal of importance on the draft? Really? All he did this summer was draft and sign the best power hitter [Greene], the fastest player in the draft [Quinn], two shortstops that considered almost impossible signees [Greene and Walding] and two polished lefties who might be on the fast track to the majors [Morgan and Wright], not to mention an intriguing guy who was once considered one of the best young power prospects in college [Martinez.]

    Had they signed Garvey, and they came close, it would have been an A draft. Certainly doesn’t sound like he places little importance on the draft to me. And if it bothers you that the Phils now deal top prospects for top major league talent, get used to it, that’s what championship contender teams do, and always have. Trade most and keep the best.

    1. C’mon man, they rarely if ever go over reccommended slot to sign anyone in the 1st round, that’s if they get a pick and are usually in the lowest spending teams in the leauge on the draft.

    2. And you don’t need to imply that I don’t know how the Phillies operate with their prospects. I’m fully aware that they trade for proven major leaguers, but consistent years w/o a first round choice will start to catch up to a team, no matter how many high risk/high reward signings they make. Also Harold Martinez was not considered a great power prospect, Plus defense and contact skills , but questionable power. Sorry but I’m realistically looking at our system and not seeing a great deal of blue chip prospects, and seeing as the draft is the best way to replenish that, I don’t think its wise to sign a reliever who makes the team forfeight a 1st round selection. I like a lot of the signings this year, but I’m not ready to proclaim that the Phils system is back on top until I see a year or two out of these players.

  23. No Difference – if a Team from 1-15 (with the 15 worst records) signed Madson the Phillies would and will get a Sandwich Pick with old and new CBAs.

    If a Team from 16-30 (with the best 14 best records – aside from the Phillies) in the old CBA the Phillies would have gotten a 16 to 30 pick. Now it becomes a Sandwich Pick.

    If both cases – the Phillies Signing Papelbon earlier or later, there is no effect based on the timing. Papelbon is now a Super A, and Madson is not. It did not matter when the Phillies signed Papelbon.

    What matters is that the CBA is changing.

  24. Luxury tax rate under CBA…22.5%….not so terrible! If you go over the threshold by $2M you pay an approx $450,000 penalty fee, over by $5M then it is $1.1M and so on.

    1. I like this deal. We need bench players with a little power. Mini-Mart is not going to scare anyone with a bat in his hands.

  25. The question is who will be the “player to be named later”. Appartently there is a list of names. My guess is that due to the Phils’ surplus of cheap major league ready relievers, it will be someone from the group of savery, Schwimer, DeFratus, Cloyd, and Hyatt. Herndon could be on the list too I suppose. The one name I’m sure isn’t on the list is Aumont.

    1. The PTBNL only kicks in if the Phillies pick up his option for 2013 and even then they can give them 100k instead apparently.

      1. Don’t think that’s true. Two potential players involved. One for 2012 and one MORE if the option is picked up. The reports have been ambiguously worded.

        However, I do agree that it will be two players in the vein of Hyatt, Schwimer, etc. and NOT a Pettibone or DeFratus. It had better not be guys of that potential.

  26. Jiwan James surprises me. If eligible, I absolutely believe he would get drafted. Possibly #1 by the Astros. (Who you know have scouted our farm system like heck the last few years.) His bat still needs to come around. But his defense will make him an asset yet. A team could easily make him the 5th outfielder. He’s an athlete, a kind of tools guy scouts are looking for. And he’s not old yet for his level.

    I mean, he may not become anything. But the day we lose a Jiwan James so we can hang onto Wilson Valdez is the day I start raising hell.

        1. It amazes me that so many Phillies fans are willing to evaluate John Bowker entirely on the 13 miserable at bats he had in September. Yes, they were epically bad, but Bowker has a baseball history. That history suggests he has some promise as a pinch hitter and 5th outfielder type. If the Phils take him off the 40-man roster, they will lose him to some organization that believes there is more to be learned from his .865 career minor league OPS or his .301 average as a pinch hitter in the big leagues than there is from any single 13-at-bat stretch.

          1. Where are you getting your stats? Baseball-reference says Bowker is a career .265/.337/.398 as a pinch hitter. It also shows a career .664 minor league OPS.

            1. Whoops. I read something wrong. The OPS you cited was correct but the pinch hitting split is still incorrect.

    1. James is still 2-3 years away – if he ever makes it to the majors. Sure I want him to succeed, but people on this site over-rate our prospects so much that it becomes ridiculous.

      If Amaro did what people on this site want him to do, Matt Rizzotti, Derrick Mitchell and the immortal Rich Thompson would all be in our starting lineup next season.

      Who knows if James will ever make it to the majors? Some of the comments on this site make it sound as if we’re risking the loss of the next Henry Aaron. He’s just a prospect in Class A ball. That’s all.

      Quit telling us time after time that some guy hitting .268 in Clearwater is a lock for the Hall of Fame.

        1. It wasn’t meant as a dig at you personally, but realistically any team that wants to draft a promising prospect and stash him for a year will have plenty of other options available.

          Most teams leave young talented players available and hope they slide through the draft. This year should be no exception. In most years, those who get selected eventually are offered back to their original teams. Roster space it too valuable to be committed to a non-contributor.

    2. The other thing you have to look at that has been mentioned here is that by putting him on the 40 man roster you have to use an option to put him in AA this year. This means you are making a gamble that if you put him on the 40 man that he will be ready to stick on the major league club within 3 years. I don’t think anyone can justify stopping his development for a year to keep him on their roster.

    1. To refresh your memory, the Phils acquired him as a left-handed bat last September. He had 13 plate appearance with 7 strikeouts and never reached base. Incidentally, all his at bats were against right-handed pitching. Exactly why he is taking up a roster spot at this time is a good question indeed.

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