Trade Chatter, July 19-25

If you must discuss potential trades, please do it in this post and don’t clutter other discussions with off topic comments. In my opinion, the Phillies should be protecting their top 10 or so prospects during the deadline, deal for a few rentals and make a run at squeezing into the playoffs. No sense trading any of our above average prospects for 1 year rentals when we need a lot of things to go right to just make the playoffs at this point. But, discuss away.

166 thoughts on “Trade Chatter, July 19-25

  1. I’d hate to lose even guys like DeFratus or Schwim for a non-difference-making rental.

  2. We should try and trade for alex gordon. He can play 3rd, while polanco can move to 2nd. When utley comes back, gordon can move to the OF.

  3. No trades at all.
    Its time to pull the plug on the Phillies season, too many players having below par seasons, some may turn their seasons around but not enough to pull back a worsening place in the standings.
    You guys have been spruiking the potential of next years draft. Well OK! load up on draft picks.
    Keep your A and B’s unless you can get prime upper level prospects now and clear the decks for the Browns to get major league experience before next season not during.
    It won’t hurt if we slide down the W/L table since that corresponds with a climb up the draft table.
    The Phillies don’t have the money to be the Yankees, time to look to the future.

  4. I agree with PP. When the Phils traded Lee, their stated reason for the trade was a need to replenish the farm. The talk about now trading top prospects for Haren is ludicrous. If Amaro were to pursue Haren, it would show that he has no plan and that he is simply reacting to the moment.

    My understanding is that Gordon is a bad third baseman. He is now playing the outfield in AAA. If so, why trade for another OF? We already have Brown.

  5. I hope they dont trade our top prospects. It would be pointless since we need so much( closer ,3b or 2b, SP, bullpen, bench, GM, etc) Brown, Cosart, Colvin, Singleton should be untouchable. They cant trade Villar or Valle because they are our only prospects at thier position. One guy i would trade is A.Gose. He has trade value and we have a ton of CF’s (Gillies who i think is a better overall player, J.James who could be the next D.Brown, L.Castro, K.Hudson) Trading Gose would not be a big hit to our farm like other players would be. I also would trade Werth. I really dont see us making it that far this year and werth will walk next year so get a good young prospect for him a pitcher or player we could use a power hitting OF prospect we have a ton of speedy athletic OF’s ( Gose, Gillies, J.James, L.Castro, K.Hudson, ) and very little power hitting OF’s (D.Santana, Mayberry, maybe Dugan, maybe Z.Collier maybe Hewitt). I think a package of A.Gose, J.Werth, and throw in a lower level prospect like a Savery or Carpenter, or J.Mayberry and i think we can get a pretty good player.

  6. If they decide to pull the plug on the season I think our #1 decision is Werth. If we decide we can’t sign him for the long haul, we’ve got a big decision to make before the trading deadline. Trade him or offer him arbitration after the year and settle for the 2 draft picks. What’s everyone’s thoughts on this. Personally I’d like to ride out the year with him and settle for the two draft picks. Hopefully if that was the case they would also allow more money for their draft.

  7. Right now Jr should be looking to clear some payroll off of next years team. His deals should be for next year not this year. This team needs something a little more than a tweak in order to content next year. They need a legit 3rd starter. They need a left fielder, they need a closer and another lefthander in the bullpen. I think between Blanton, Happ and Kendrick they can find two of them to man the 4th adn 5th starter role. None of them are 3rd starter material though. Ibanez bat is slow, he is showing his age. He needs to be replaced. If KC is interested and even if we have to pay 8 mill of his salary next year you have to made the deal, addition by subtraction here. Take the 4 mill and use that to find another outfielder They need more depth in the organization. When you are going with guys like Utley and Rollins who have gotten hurt the last few years you need to have some depth. Now Garcia and Glavis at AA they could be set next year if one of the middle infielders go down.

  8. The packages with Werth seem unrealistic. The only team that would be interested in Werth would be a contender; they are unlikely to trade useful pieces to the Phillies. So, the only way to turn Werth (with or without Gose and others) into a usable player is to send Werth for prospects and then use the now enlarged prospect pool to obtain a pitcher or infielder. Sound familiar?

  9. No offense, by would KC want Raul Ibanez at almost any price? He is a step backwards for that team.

    In any event . . . . I think the talk of not trading prospects and trading Jayson Werth is ill-conceived.

    First, this team is still in contention – the last few years tell us that. Second, the team has gaping holes, some of which were apparent from ST. The team needs to hit more – sure more pitching would help, but that’s not the primary problem with this team. To me, this isn’t a difficult decision. You keep Werth, promote Brown and, all of sudden you’ve got an awfully nice OF (Werth, Brown and Victorino). Second, you need a real infielder who can hit. Wilson Valdez is a nice utility infielder, but we need more – the team needs to go out and get somebody. So long as we don’t trade our star prospects, I get that deal done. If Matt Rizzotti goes, so be it. If Scott Mathieson goes, so be it. Finally, you get a starter if you can but, again, don’t mortgage the future – if you can’t get a starter, move on, the starting pitching is already decent, I think will continue to improve throughout the year. People forget this, but Blanton was God awful for Oakland the year we got him. He’s fat and he’s frustrating, but, if you look carefully at recent starts, Blanton’s starting to pitch better and I think he’ll pitch well down the strech. I also think that Happ will be ready to go by early August – he is actually pitching better in the minors and should be ready soon.

    The moral of the story, to me, is this. The season is not over – we are certainly in contention and this team has a history of overtaking its opponents during the last month of the season. Above average prospects should be sacrificed to give us a chance to make that run. The focus should be on hitting, hitting, hitting – if this team starts to hit, it can pile up wins very quickly. If it doesn’t hit, it’s a pretty average team and the addition of one more starter, isn’t going to change things that much.

    Just one man’s opinion.

  10. They will not offer Werth arbritation. He might accept, plus they don’t want the two high picks, not there style. I wouldnt do anything but try to unload blanton, ibanez, baez for nothing, just unload salary. if possible. bring up mathieson, maybe stutes or swimmer to see what they can do for next year. To me it seems a lot of the teams this year are getting great pitching. we really need a third starter. kenrick blanton are not dependable starters for that slot. so right now are starters for next year would be Halladay, Hamels. mystery, happ, blanton or kenrick prefer kenrick. just hoping they take this route.

  11. Werth is going through a rough patch, but he’s a borderlie star player. We should view this as a blessing in disguise – his current below-expectations performance may mean that we can sign him for less money ($15-17 million per year) and fewer years (4 years plus team option?). Trust me, an outfield with Werth and Brown (and probably Victorino for at least another year) is going to be a force to contend with. If you combine that without infield, this team will be dangerous for several years to come.

  12. mikemike…repeat after me…Werth WILL NOT accept arbitration. There is no way he would accept a one-year contract. It ain’t gonna happen. It’s not the Phillies style to offer arbitration to players who may accept (see Burrell, Pat) but they will certainly offer arbitration and take the picks if they have players they know won’t accept (see Rowand, Aaron). Werth falls into the second category.

  13. There are moves we can make that won’t cost any of our top prospects.

    I would pick up Tejada to play 3B until Utley returns. If we get that far, Tejada could be our DH in the WS.

    If Happ is not ready to pitch effectively soon, I would add Pedro for the stretch run.

    I would not trade Werth. To the contrary, I would try to sign him to an extension. I think we can sign him for fewer years than Bay (5 years) and less money per year than Holliday and Bay($16 million).

  14. –Agree with Catch 22 that Phils are still right in it. Buyers, not sellers.

    –Agree not to trade top prospects.

    –I still want them to keep Werth. We have no RH replacement. Would Phils sign a RH power bat FA if they lost Werth? They would need to, IMO.

    –Agree they need to get the bats going to contend. This team has always won on scary, intimidating hitting and pitching that holds them close. That’s still the formula. Stay close, get bats hot, get Utley back. Keep Werth and Howard cranking. Patch up the rotation and go with the hot hand, shoving Moyer, Kendrick or Blanton out if necessary (agree Blanton will likely iron things out). That’s how they will win.

    –Agree with Jr.’s first post in thread that they should keep the solid reliever, especially Mathieson, Schwimmer, and DeFratus. If Rosenberg were healthy, he’d be in that group. However, neither Amaro nor Manuel trust young relievers and feel a contending team like Phils cannot afford any high-leverage inning pitched by these guys. A real Catch-22 in that philosophy (sorry Catch). So I expect one of the good relievers to go. I’m guessing DeFratus, who might have the most value, but could be Schwim or Scott also.

  15. 1) last time i checked the Phils are 2-3 games out of the wildcard, so why pull the plug on the season?
    2)Unless next years payroll jumps up 15-20 million, we cannot resign Werth. i have posted the link before, and do not feel like finding it again to link again but basically next year our payroll minus moyer, werth and without arbitration for kendrick, francisco and one other name i forget factored in is 134 million. currently it is 138 million. obviously unless werth signs for 4 million a year or we seriously up the payroll, no werth.
    3) i think we do nothing unless it costs only mid level prospects in a steal or like someone said, trading a CF prospect since we seem to have an abundance of OF’s. specifically CF.

  16. Once again with the just resign Werth, call up D. Brown, etc. Without dealing with the Ibanez contract, and a few other inconveniences, that is highly unlikely as it would push payroll into the 155 million , at least, range, as Werth would draw around a 15-16-17-18 range contract, and added to the around 140 million payroll committment for next season (and don’t give me no expiring contracts deducted stuff because that is figured in already). So , unless Philly greatly expands the budget, ain’t happenin’.

    But, I figure a trade of Ibanez to KC is doable, if you sweeten the pot a bit. First the component is you trade Ibanez at 11 1/2 million for the expiring contract of their DH Jose Guillen at 12 million. Ibanez can serve his last year of contract as KC’s DH and as his sucessor you add Matt Rizotti who can polish at AAA for that season. Then you add the spare part James Happ who can take over for Bruce Chen in KC’s rotation,if need be, and another for a good rotation candidate, Vance Worley. Then, if need be, given their great need for Middle Infield you toss in Harold Garcia for a future option. That would be a bit weighted in KC’s favor so they add Mike Aviles who is a good hitter , but has only played 2B this season due to coming off Tommy John surgery.
    I say this works for KC, because of this alignment, Alex Gordon in LF (they need him and he’s their guy) Mitch Meier in CF, David DeJesus in RF, Phenom Mike Moutsakas called up for 3B, and Ibanez at DH to be replaced next season by Rizzotti. So far , all Left-Handed Hitters, but there are more RHP’s so they can deal for awhile, and they can partially offset with the 1B, Billy Butler, and whatever they can scavenge for 2B, SS, and C.

  17. I’m tired of Werth and his edgy beard. I say trade the guy.

    In fact, I’m pretty much tired of this entire team. They’re just not very likable anymore. Everyone’s act has gotten old. I’m all for a rebuild.

  18. Pedro Martinez is not an option this year. He hasn’t even thrown off a mound, so for all intents and purposes, he appears to be retired. If he started throwing today, doubt he’d be ready before sometime in September.

  19. Whoever thinks the Phillies won’t offer Werth arbitration is an idiot. What he will command in arbitration is less than what he will make per year, on a multi-year contract.
    As far as who to trade: Gose, Rizzotti, Worley, Mathieson, Schwimer or DeFratus. Any of those guys get traded for a player that gets them to the playoffs, fine by me.

  20. By the way, you can call up Brown for a strech run without worrying about Werth’s contract for next year. If we don’t want to sign him, we can offer him arbitration and he will sign somewhere else, thus giving us extra picks – somebody WILL sign him. As for Raul not getting playing time for the rest of the year, why do I care about that? If he hits, he’ll get time, if he doesn’t, he’ll be dead weight – the important thing is to get the young hitting star up to the team as soon as possible as he will almost certainly be an immediate upgrade and maybe even an enormous upgrade.

  21. Of the prospects mentioned, I’d be very reluctant to trade DeFratus as everything so far indicates that he has star potential. All of the other guys mentioned should be in the mix, as should Carpenter, Worley, Stutes, Overbeck and (in the right trade only) Valle.

    And somebody should really wake up and give Jermaine Dye a call and keep calling if he doesn’t answer – if he is still physically fit, I’d give him several million to finish off the season. He’s got exactly the type of right-handed power bat this team craves for a playoff push.

  22. PP did a very thorough analysis previously that concluded the Phils could expand the payroll next year, with little or no pain, to sign Werth even if we can’t dump Ibanez.

  23. First you can forget about Happ. I said from the start his injury was Exactly the same as Josh Johnson presurgery and it has kept that path.
    Trading Gose means you are stuck with that slugger Vic and his ragged game.

    The “experts” on radio keep pointing out that the Phils do well in the second half and they do. But a large part of that has been the lack of injuries while the other teams weaken. This year we are the injured roster.

    I don’t know if its over. Five one run victories have been the difference but is that luck or skill??
    Whatever Brown’s shortcomings he is the only chip to improve the team without
    making a silly trade. Riz to AAA . What the hell is there to lose

  24. The only way I would move Werth is if you can trade him to a team like Tampa, who would then send prospects to Arizona to land us Haren.

    Other than that, it’s not worth just trading him for prospects.

    The division might be tough, but the Phils are only 2 back in the WC standings.

    It’s hardly time to “pull the plug.”

  25. It will be interesting to see what happens with Werth. His trade value has to be at a low point right now. What team will give up good prospects for a 1/2 year rental of someone who has not hit well since May? If he continues at this pace until the end of the season, what team will be giving him a 4-5 year $15 million/yr contract? I do not know how the arbitration numbers work or what he might get in arbitration, but if he did continue this slide, it is not crazy to think he could accept arbitration and hope for a better year next year. Anyway, I doubt that will happen, but it is feasible. Also, What makes someone a type A free agent? What would Werth theoretically have to sign for in order for the Phils to get a 1rst rounder and a supplemental pick?

  26. Again I stated a opinion , dont think the phillies will offer arb to werth. Now a normal person with any class would say i believe your wrong they will offer him arb, but on here i am called a idiot by our expert mike77 who is never wrong. what a low class person you are, if my kids acting like you I would feel like a failure in raising them. you arent the only one with a opinion wrong or right grow up.

  27. Werth is 31, and he missed the first half of his career with a collection of freak injuries. This is his one chance for a big payday (okay, $7m is tons of money to you and me but obviously he can make more), and he’s going to hit the FA market and probably get a Jason Bay-ish contract. There’s no chance he accepts arbitration, so not offering it is giving away draft picks.

    I don’t think they should trade Werth at this point unless they get an overwhelming offer. Even though he’s slumping he’s one of the best hitters on the team, and most GMs aren’t going to take a month long slump as indication that a guy isn’t good.

  28. Personally, I can’t stand Werth. The guy looks like he’s high 95% of the time. After he strikes out and gives us the typical “extremely slow walk back to the dugout while staring aimlessly into the sky” routine, I half expect him to go light up a bowl in the dugout.

    Like I said a few posts ago, between him,Victorino’s 2 marbles rolling around in his head (Shane Victorino is a Winner Ford guy!), Cole Hamels incessant complaining/wining, Joe Blanton’s fatness, Brad Lidge’s inconsistent play, Ibanez’s large head (literally), Utley’s injuries, RAJ’s cockiness, and the general D-bag “CBP fan”, we’re becoming a pretty unlikeable franchise. At this point, I don’t even want this team to win, and find myself routing against them (something I never thought I’d do), just because I’m completely sick of this team. I know I’m not the only one who feels this way.

  29. ****At this point, I don’t even want this team to win, and find myself routing against them (something I never thought I’d do), just because I’m completely sick of this team. I know I’m not the only one who feels this way.
    ****

    ~coughs~

    Bandwagon poseur fan

    ~coughs again~

    If you hate them, why post on a Phillies oriented blog?

  30. I haven’t heard Cole Hamels complain once this season.

    I agree with the posters who suggest trading Werth in a three-team deal that would land us a top flight starter like Haren. Even though he’s slumping right now, he is arguably the best bat available (if he is indeed available), so that makes him valuable. It’s like when the Mets gave up Kazmir to get Victor Zambrano — it wasn’t that Zambrano was a great pitcher, but he was the best that was available.

  31. NEPP – I really don’t have to prove myself to anyone. I might not be as old as some of the other guys on this board (I’m 30), but I’ve been going to games regularly since 87. I actually preferred the Vet to CBP, because the Vet wasn’t such a freaking circus every night. Also, you actually had to earn your HR’s in that park, and these “flower bed” HR’s were just routine outs. I really hate the type of game that’s being played at CBP (in all fairness, a lot of the newer parks play this way).

    I know my opinion isn’t the majority, but I’m just calling it like I see it – To me, this team isn’t very likable, or exciting. Like I said, it really has nothing to do with the wins/losses – I’d feel the same way if this team was 30 games over .500.

    As to why I follow this site, I’m really excited about the next generation of Phillies. I think come 2012 – 2014, this team will be fun to watch again, but probably not before then.

  32. I liked the Vet too…more so that I could walk up 20 min before the game and get tickets on the dugout. Of course, the teams were terrible so that was the fringe benefite of loving them when they sucked. I love CBP too (if not the crowds of less knowledgeable and annoying college kids that are there to be seen) despite some of the things you listed. Still, the Vet during a 65 K sellout was an amazing experience…ashame it rarely sold out.

  33. I think management needs to shake up the Phillies. They may be a few games out of the Wild Card, but they are playing listlessly. Complacent baseball drives me mad.

    I believe if they could trade Ibanez or Moyer, it would be completed already. I’ve said it before… Werth’s value is more than just his high pitch per plate appearance, good defense, and decent OPS. It’s the arb story as well. The mid year stats point him to being a Type A free agent. So I say field offers for Werth and get infield prospects back. If nothing palatable comes back, then same process for Victorino. Once you create a roster spot, bring up Brown.

    The thing is, I’m not sure I am more confident that the Phils can evaluate other team’s minor league systems better or the draft better. We’ll see about the Lee trade. I assume a year or two of information on players in the minors makes for a better guess than a draft pick. So I think I would prefer the trade route.

    If you can’t trade Werth or Victorino, then offer Werth arbitration and let him walk, because he wants to get his payday from the Yankees or Sox, both of whom covet him – if you believe the press. Unless things change, I am sure that the Phillies will offer him Arb; and sure Werth will reject. There are numerous quotations of Werth saying he’s played his entire career for this off season… echoes of Cliff Lee.

    I am still worried about Jimmy Rollins. His defense is still fun to watch; but his hitting, I believe, is trending down. We have an aging infield; we needed Jason Donald this year…

    If you’re going to try to upgrade the rotation, I wouldn’t trade any of our top prospects. I don’t want Haren because he’s not pitching well, and is a fly ball pitcher. It seems more reasonable to focus on ground ball pitchers. We won’t go after Oswalt due to payroll… there’s really no one out there for whom I would offer Singleton or Cosart.

  34. Matt: It did not take long for you to become a disgruntled fan. Victorino and Werth have been playoff and World Series heroes at different times during the two WS runs. They are both above average players and I would say that without those two very shrewd pick ups we might still be in a baseball and professional sports championship drought in Phila. They are not playing well now, but I find it hard to hate them. Further, this team has provided so many great times over the last 3 years that it is impossible for me to hate the team or even the specific players you named. It is one thing to be disappointed and to criticize, but to hate the same players that gave so much seems a bit unreasonable.

  35. dougEfresh – I guess I should have chosen my words a little more carefully. I agree that hate is a strong word.

    As for Victorino, he’s always bugged me for some reason. Back in the 2008 NLCS against the Dodgers where he was yelling at Kuroda is a good example of the stuff that he does that bugs me. That and Jayson Werth’s big glove during the WS celebration ceremonies. He’s such a weird dude. I know, I’m nitpicking, but there’s some guys on here, that despite their numbers, I don’t like them at all.

    I know, I’m insane. Alright, since this is a trade thread, I’m officially bowing out of this one.

  36. Matt,
    I’m 32 and have been watching the phillies just as long as you and I completely disagree with your take on the team. When we were watching the team at the vet with guys like dave doster, tony longmire, kevin sefcif, charlie hayes, jason grimsley, bobby munoz etc with a ballpark that was 1/2 empty you thought that was fun? This team when on a roll, hitting big hr’s coming back from behind in a packed house, is as fun a team to watch in philly then any other sport in the city. Personally the last few yrs of baseball have been a joy to watch and you need to hop off the bandwagon or stick with them an be a true fan. Thats my take.

  37. Sibs – Oh I still watch them every night. I feel I’ve been with this team through plenty of the lean years to have this opinion of them.

    And personally, I’m more of a Jeff Juden guy.

  38. The Phillies are 2 games out of the wild card and its not even August. Im not sure why it would be time to “pull the plug.” The team just needs players like Rollins and Werth to hit like they’re capable of and keep the team afloat and make a run in August and September. Hopefully JA Happ will be back with the club in a few weeks.

  39. Wow just wow — talk about derailing a thread. I can’t believe there are people defending the Vet and its bad angles, horrible consessions, horrible astro turf, and bad bathrooms. I won’t even talk about the sinks there.

    I don’t want to see the Phils trade anybody, either from the minors or on the big club. Let this team run it out there for the rest of the year and see if they catch fire one more time. I don’t trust RAJ to make a good trade if he unloads werth. At this point this is his team, not Gillicks. The long contracts to Ibanez, Victorino, Blanton, Howard, Polanco are all his doing. Picking up Jimmy’s option was his call. This team is pretty much locked in as far as current roster contruction and I don’t see much flexibility. I do not want them to throw a giant contract at Werth just to keep the fans happy. Let this team finish, and then circle back during the offseason and see how they could shake things up.

  40. Jayson Werth is a solid right handed bat who is having a horrendous month of july and will be gone after next year.

    If there is any way the phillies can trade him in some sort of package where they get a solid pitcher like Oswalt or Haren, then I would absolutely do it because they have a kid in triple a absolutely tearing it up and with him up and ben francisco( a right handed bat) platooning with Ibanez they, can definitely become a serious contender.

  41. From K Law, fits in with this conversation

    Logan (PA)

    How good is Anthony Gose as a prospect? I keep seeing/hearing Carl Crawford comps – is that realistic?

    Klaw (1:39 PM)

    In terms of raw ability, yes, but he’s got a lot of development ahead of him to get there. I think he’d have a decent amount of trade value, not as a headliner, but to add to a deal for a rental player.

  42. “If there is any way the phillies can trade him in some sort of package where they get a solid pitcher like Oswalt or Haren.”

    Why would a non contending team want Jayson Werth whose a free agent after this year?

    The only way Werth nets Haren is in a 3 team deal that would involve Werth going to a contender and that team as well as us sending prospects to Arizona.

  43. I think the Phils would get more for Victorino than Werth – he’d be more than a 1/2 rental to some teams, and a lot of teams could use his bat and speed at the top of the lineup. I like Shane – but if I had to make a deal, I would try to package him and Happ, move Werth to CF and bring up D Brown. We’d still have plenty of team speed and great defense in the OF.

  44. I don’t like the idea of moving Victorino. Your defense becomes much worse and you lose a valuable table setter (even if he is having a down year). It creates as many problems as it solves.

  45. My actual issue with the team is the appalling lack of minimum contracts. We paid utility players like Juan Castro 700k a year. He was worth -1.2 WAR this year (~4.6 Million Dollars). Finding a -1.2 WAR player should not be hard. Go spend that extra 300k on more slot busting in the draft. Hire more scouts. Stop paying every reliever a million or more.

    This team has done a good job of finding potential stars but where are my #3 starters? If we took the money we’re paying to Joe Blanton and spent it on good if not great draft arms without the 97 FB but perhaps a 93 FB, I think we could come away with quite a few pretty #3 pitchers.

    Nothing makes the way this roster is constructed to me more of a joke to me than the Bullpen salaries and the reluctance of this team to take a chance. We won’t call up Scott Mathieson because he’s not a proven product. Baez has proven his ability to get Major League outs (however ineffectively). They’ll pay the premium for that proof instead of taking a wiser approach and simply throwing arms at the bullpen and seeing what works. Teams find random arms who work out as great bullpen arms all the time (I’m looking at you Joaquin Benoit).

    So to get to the actual trade chatter. I hope the team can unload some of the crap extensions that were signed and I would like to see a Werth trade. My hope is that some of our poor reliever contracts can be dealt. Madson is a nice reliever, yes he is. I think his contract can find you 5 nice relievers if you threw it at the draft or failed SPs.

  46. I agree that if there were any takers for Ibanez or Moyer they would already be gone so I think that it’s best to just forget about moving either of them. The problem is that Werth has played so bad for the last month and a half that he might not net the type of talent that would make it worth it to part with him. That said I don’t think it would be completely unrealistic to make a move with the Rays for Brignac and a nice pitching prospect or a comparable deal with another contender. Then bring up Brown and let him play right every day and platoon Francisco and Ibanez in left and let Brignac play second until Chase gets back and groom him for the future.

    That team would probably be just as likely to make a push for the playoffs and realistically once we get there i like our pitching and clutch hitting to get back to the WS.

  47. I for one am holding out till next weekend. If the Phills can close the gap alittle by then, why not go for it. I mean the Phills have been just sloppy this yr and yet are only 5 games back in the loss.

    The Mets and Braves aren’t running away with this. A nice win streak could put them right back in it, and don’t forget the last 24 games are all against the NL East. That could be a huge way to gain ground.

    I dunno if I’d want Brignac for Werth. I understand he could replace Jroll when/if he leaves but I’d rather net pitching for Werth if we do trade him. The Phills need to bounce back over the next 8-12 games. I am actually want to see Figeroa pitch and not this bum Baez. I get it they signed him long term, but he’s not good by and any means. I mean he’s pretty horrible actually and needs to be cut.

  48. That’s what I mean Bob, trade Werth to a team willing to give up a pitcher for a solid power hitter or to a contender with prospects that the phils could trade for a pitcher.

    I think that the phils also need to make a move for a bullpen guy because honestly there isn’t one guy I trust in that ‘pen.

  49. REMAKE : THE MONEY PIT The Phils and freeagency.

    STARING Fred Garcia with Dennys Baez as the beaver

  50. If we move Werth, just get me a third base prospect like a guy in high a with a lot of potential and a pitcher with closing ability or third starter potential, really want a infielder prospect the most, a third basemen, I believe we have some shortstop and second prospects. I know that I am dreaming hoping to unload ibanez, baez and blanton, but let me dream .

  51. This team needs a shot in the arm. These Phillies seem to be playing less as a unified team and more as a collection of players. Whether it’s a trade or bringing up Dom Brown or both, I think we need to see a shot of fresh energy in the clubhouse and on the field.

    Starting pitching continues to be the area of greatest need.

    Maybe Dan Haren will become available without having to involve Dom Brown. I love Haren’s competitiveness and I think a change of scenery might be just the thing. Sure, he gives up a lot of long balls, but he does so many other things to help himself win. He’s a bulldog, a true warrior, which is far more important than numbers when playoff baseball rolls around. No one would be surprised to see him dominate for a stretch, which is exactly what the Phillies need.

    All the other stuff: Werth, Brown, too many lefties, Lidge, Victorino, Ibanez, injuries, blah blah blah! It’s ALL just background noise next to starting pitching.

    Ok, I have to say it. Count me among those who just cannot believe the Cliff Lee deal went down the way it did. I know it’s old, but it’s not old. Not really. It remains totally relevant, now more than before. If these Phillies sneak into the playoffs, it will loom even larger.

    Despite the mistake, I think our front office is a tremendous group. I only hope they have re-focused on starting pitching, this time understanding that you can never, ever have too much. Of particular importance is maintaining a Big Three, not just two aces and a collection of 4s and 5s.

    Relentlessly, the games pile up one on top of the other, day in, day out. Over time, all the comebacks and lucky breaks and meltdowns and blowouts basically even out. It’s having superior match-ups in your rotation which gets you into the playoffs, and in general, that’s what wins there, too. If you’re usually over-matched in the rotation at 3, 4 and 5, there’s nothing your 1 and 2 can do to save you. In fact, they’re more likely to try too hard and make things worse.

    Please! Let’s get that Big Three and hold on to it for more than a couple of hours next time. Thanks!

  52. @Gary — Never before have I heard someone complain that a Philly team spends too much money, you are the first. Actually calling for the Phils to have more players making the minimum salary is a new one. Take a look a back at the salaries of Hamels, Ruiz, Happ, Madson, Victorino, and Werth. Those were the guys that had a small salary compared to their peers and they went out and earned raises. If your real complaint is Ruben’s ability to sign/re-sign talent for their projected worth as compared to past worth then I agree.

  53. What contract? He will be owed less than five million if they acquired him and is a free agent at the end of the year.

  54. @ Jacko

    I’m not complaining about the amount of money we spend, I’m complaining about where we spend it. The inability for us to develop role players leads to us spending an exorbitant amount of money on role players and bullpen pitchers, money that would be better spent in my opinion on the draft or paying a star player. By making an initial investment now in developing not only stars but role players, I believe that we will, in the future, no longer have to sign players like Baez or Castro

  55. The question is why would any team have to give three players for sheets! Lol! If the phils took on his contract they could get him for Joe savery strait up!

  56. I dont comment often and now I know why…first my trade gets critiscized for Sheets contract which expires…and then why would anyone trade 3 players for sheets…it was for sheets and michael taylor who im pretty sure was beloved on this site…also my deal would shake up the team, acquire a guy who has ace stuff when healthy ( granted not often) but he would be our number 3 starter…it would also free up a spot for brown in OF and free up cash for next year to either sign werth or make a run at lee…and from varying comments worley and rizzotti may or may not be major leaguers…I also dont think they are in anybody’s top10….just a thought !

  57. ” the appalling lack of minimum contracts”- for a player of Juan Castro’s experience (which would be over 1 day on an MLB active roster or 3 or more years on the 40 man roster ) the minimum is $650,000. Castro had a $700,000 a year contract with next year’s contract bought out for another $50,000, so for anyone other than a raw rookie they blew a whopping $100,000. They could have gotten a 30+ AAAA minor league veteran to help fill out next season’s AAA roster for all that. What a loss. If you would have preferred a player without MLB experience at all to play for actual MLB minimum $400,000, other teams with MLB quality guys at that level would require a big trade package because they would likely be prospects, so you woud likely need to bring one up from the organization at the end of last season. I don’t believe Philly had any players above A ball without some MLB experience, even Brad Harman and such had been in the MLB for a day or more, most on here would object to those players moreso than Castro anyway, so what is your big solution to the player to play for $400,000?

  58. As to the unload Jamie Moyer stuff, they have not likely tried , nor should they. With even a minimal acquaintance of the cost of starting pitching and such, if anyone has outperformed his contract it is Moyer. There could have been numerous more victories in the games Moyer has pitched with the teams usual offensive output of recent years or even a minmal level of offensive support.

  59. Dan Haren- not anyone to give alot for, whatsoever. Typical Haren outing is 5 innings pitched 10 strikeouts around 120 pitches thrown. He just happens to be impressive to people who know stats only and base their evaluations thereon, because they might say “just look at them thar perif-err-ials ” or something. The reward from Haren would typically be, 5 innings of ooohin’ and ahhin’ at the stuff and strikeouts and all, and 4 innings of the bullpen every 5th day.

  60. Trading Werth is not really a great idea, play out the year and offer arbitration – if he walks the 2 high draft picks, if he accepts then theres the right handed power bat.

    Brown can be brought up next year and play in place of Ibanez. Ibanez, if they cannot unload him then he takes a bench spot as lefty pinchhitter.

    Trading a Baez or Contreras may not be a bad idea, or even several relievers. Then bring up a few of these minor league relievers and see if you have something not only for the playoffs but also for next year.

    A trade of Kendrick or Blanton would be ok as they could bring in a useful player. Maybe a reliever or right handed outfielder.

    I do not think that trading prospects this year would be in the best interest for the team. They need to straighten this out mostly with the players there now and stop underpreforming.

  61. As to the sign Jermaine Dye for 4 million (!) for the rest of the season. What, pay a $16 million a year contract for a guy that no (no) team has bothered to sign at all for this entire season? There is a reason no one has , and that is because if he was believed to have even a residue of his previous hitting and fielding ability left , they already would have. The decline begun while he still was playing last season, he was a DH, did not hit much, and offered little in the field, as had been expounded on many times in the links to articles in MLBTR. Not a good idea, I say.

  62. Marfis, in regards to Haren, let me get this straight. You dismiss people who evaluate Haren by looking at his statistics. And to back up this claim you use….statistics. For the record, Haren has made 21 starts and failed to finish six full innings in just 4 of them. He also has NEVER failed to finish in the top ten in innings pitched since establishing a full time starters role.

  63. As to the high draft picks by not resigning Werth but offering arbitration to Werth, which some assume he will decline. Trading Werth for more known commodities, if Philly falls off by July 31, is the better route. The draft choices may only be a mid-“sandwich” round (around 50 overall) and (if higher rated players are signed by the team that signs Werth) a 3rd, 4th, even 5th round pick. That is not a stretch as the rumored destinations are Boston, New York Yankees, etc. Perhaps they can rake in another Percival Garner and Bryan Morgado, doesn’t do much for MLB anytime soon. Even more talented players than this might take 3 years. Even if they had retained Cliff Lee the 2 draft pick haul , if things had broken right, they would not equal the haul they got from Seattle, despite many bleats and yelps to the contrary.

  64. “There could have been numerous more victories in the games Moyer has pitched with the teams usual offensive output of recent years or even a minmal level of offensive support.”

    @Marfis: Yes, the Phillies could’ve won more games if they scored more runs. But that argument is irrelevant. The Phillies would’ve won the world series last year if they had scored more runs against the Yankees too.

    I still believe an extra $8M at the beginning of the year would’ve benefited the Phillies and given them the capability to retain other talent (whether MLB players or draft picks). There were decent options in free agency this year. I’d much rather have a Joel Pineiro right now than Moyer… in the short term and long term.

  65. Back to Haren- OK, I went and actually looked at some stats- I got Haren at slightly above 6 IP per game in his career. A small amount of those games were relief appearances so that would give him another slight bump. So maybe he’s not that bad from that perspective. I had remembered that analysis from a Chicago Cubs broadcast last season, Perhaps they were off a little, or they were actually talking about Rich Harden, who I got for around slightly over 5 IP per game for career, with a couple of relief appearances. So the conclusion, trading alot for Rich Harden is also not a good idea. And back to Haren, he will rake in 12 1/2 million per season for the next few seasons. Where’s that going to come from? So , as with other proposed moves, unless they are willing to take back the contract of Joe Blanton or other relatively high priced pieces ,or Philly greatly expands the budget, ain’t happenin’.

  66. Joel Piniero- I really extended myself and went and looked up Joel Piniero’s contract. 8 million a year each in ’10 and ’11. If you think he would have signed in Philly for the same amount he signed in Disneyland, good for you. I think he would have needed a premium on top of that, and he still might have went to Anaheim anyway. Plus he is on the books for next season, and I am sure somebody better than him will appear on next season’s Free Agency Pitchers list. Plus Piniero is aging a bit, is a sinkerballer who relies on ground balls outs to be effective. And, as any of the noted stats enthusiasts on here will tell you, a pitcher gettting an out on a batted ball is ” just plain old dumb luck”.

    The second year of Moyers’ contract was likely necessary to get a signing, Moyers efforts in the 1st year were part of a pennant winning formula, Moyer was in no way responsible for the World Series loss (and don’t give me he should/could have done more to contribute to WS victory, bccause fewer pitchers are needed in playoffs, and the ones they used did well enough)(blame the offense) and Moyer by accepted standards has outperformed the contract in both years. Who they woulda/shoulda/coulda got is just pure conjecture. So, where’s the beef?

  67. Look at what you get for 8 million in starting pitchers around MLB or what 8 million would get after the current season, consider the victories which occurred when the starts were made which is important to the team as these tend to increase revenue and that in concert with others was enough to get to World Series and thereby increase revenues. That is what determines the value to a team, not somebody’s micro analysis of WHIP’s and FIP’s and FLIP’s and DIP’s or mph on the fastball or any of that stuff.

  68. Amazing to read how the haul for lee was better than two choices> boy I know that I must live on another planet, I would take lee this year and two first round choices over aumont, gillies and ramirez any day of the week.
    Am I the only one who read about scouts view of gillies? He hit in a hitter league,beat out a lot of balls that in higher league are outs, aumont if he ever is better than a five hundred pitcher in the big league, I will gladly say i am a idiot to all of you in bold type. he is another prospect like we took for schilling a first round flop, travis lee. This kid is so screw up he couldnt get out gcl players . The bottom line is lee for a pennant drive was worth more than aumont, gillies and ramirez anyday of the week.

  69. Sorry hit button. To me Moyer as a fifth starter is allright. always though a fifth starter is around a five hundred pitcher. the problem is our third and fourth , blanton and kenrick are terrible and not really nothing better than fifth starters at best.

  70. I wasn’t a huge fan of the Moyer contract & still am not, but on the list of what went wrong with the Phillies this year it ranks down pretty low on the list. He’s been an adequate 4/5 starter, and the market for starting pichers is absurd – 8 million, unless you get lucky, does NOT buy you much in the way of starting pitching these days. Sure, you can make plenty of counterfactuals about what the Phillies “should” have done with that money, but hindsight is 20/20.

  71. If Blanton and Happ had been healthy the Phillies pitching would have been quite good (and even as it is, it’s been adequate – hitting has been the problem). Blanton 2008-2009 is an adequate 3; Happ would have been fine as a 4.

    It bugs me a bit to see people knock Blanton without acknowleging the injury.

  72. Truth is that both Moyer and Blanton have generally done the job they are being paid to do. Blanton had a horrible start to the seaion but has been pitching better his last few starts and Moyer is completely dependent on the type of line-up he’s facing. What Moyer’s or Blanton’s contracts really show is the importance of developing pitching internally vs. what the price is for back of the rotation guys.

    That why I’m not in favor of trading any decent pitching prospects for some fill-in position player or rent-a-pitcher for a playoff run.

  73. 3up3kkk,

    As a general matter I think you are correct, but when a team is legitimately in a position to contend, the calculus differs. Which is why the original Blanton move was such a good one, while a similar move this year IMO wouldn’t be. Of course if you believe that the Phils are in a similar position to where they were in 2008 – I don’t – then a Blanton like deal would make sense.

    Another consideration is the the lack of top of the line starting pitcher prospects in the Phillies’ upper minors. If you belive that the Phillies’s current core only has a couple more years before decline sets in (and even the most optimistic view of aging patterns supports that view), then they arguably should take advantage of that window by buying an overpriced* starter in FA or even trade.

    *In the sense that every post FA starter is overpriced either in terms of salary, trade cost, or both. And no one will trade you the valuable pre-FA starters.

  74. Right now, in FA, the going rate for a #3 starter who can eat innings and has a decent WL record is $8M. That is just how it is. Joe Blanton got paid market rate. Obviously, he’s not living up to his contract, but at the time, it was a fair deal. You want to see something worse? Kyle Lohse, 4 years, $41M.

  75. I dont know what people consider good, but to me 6 innings three runs or less is good, its consider quality start. in 53 starts , blanton , kenrick moyer have 23 total, is that consider good?

  76. I just think Kendrick should be in the pen. Moyers is our #5 and Blanton is a #4. They are short a pitcher but really the hitting and and being out hustled and played in general is what’s doing this team in. Even with Lee, this team still wouldn’t be in 1st place. That’s the sad part.

  77. With lee I believe we would have more wins, look at the lack of quality starts, by the third starter. but the hitting has been so bad. look at the come from behind wins horrible.

  78. “I dont know what people consider good, but to me 6 innings three runs or less is good, its consider quality start. in 53 starts , blanton , kenrick moyer have 23 total, is that consider good?”

    Is that good for a number 3 starter? No. A # 4? Maybe. A five? Definitely.

    The point is, the Phillies surely would like to have the stronger back end of the rotation. But the problem is injuries – to Happ and Blanton. Blanton is capable of doing much better when healthy, Moyer is fine as a 4 or 5, and Kendrick wouldn’t even be starting if Happ and Blanton were healthy.

    Blanton in his first 1 1/2 seasons as a Phillie had an ERA of 4.11 in 265 IP (roughly 195 IP per full year). I haven’t run the numbers (it would be tough to accurately do so, given that “#3 starter” is not clear cut for most teams), but I believe that that was an above average performance for a # 3 in those seasons. (Last year, among NL pitchers who qualified for the ERA title, he was 28th, which would place him well above the median among starting pitchers if one figures 5 starting pitchers per each of 16 NL teams, though there were only 43 qualifiers for the ERA title. There were only 4 teams with 3 qualifying starting pitchers with a better ERA.)

  79. Another point I’d like to make – if you believe, as I do, that, given the current payroll dynamics of ML baseball, the best path to winning for teams with finite payrolls (i.e., everyone but the Yankees) is to put relatively more resources into position players, as opposed to pitchers, then you’re likely to have some problems with the back end of the rotation. That’s been true every year with the Phillies, and likely will continue to be so. They can win anyway with strong offense, defense, and relief pitching. This year, 2 of 3 of those have been problematic, mostly because of injuries.

  80. That’s a good stat mikemike nice job pulling it out, I agree that is actually pretty awful, it is hard to win when your 3-5 starters can’t even give quality starts half the time. Happ needs to get healthy and back to pitching good baseball as soon as possible, I realize that is easier said then done but either Kendrick or Moyer need to not be in the rotation. I’ll live with Blanton because I think he has the best actual stuff but one of the other 2 need to go.

    If you can get Sheets for a package that doesn’t include any of our top 10 guys then I’m ok with that otherwise I’d pass. Ted Lilly is probably the guy I’m most fond of that is still left out there, despite his fly ball tendencies, I’d still prefer not to give away too much but perhaps a package of J.C. Ramirez, Rizzotti, and Gose would get it done. I know most will hate the idea of trading Gose but give Gillies a year to get back and we will have basically the same thing and you can only get one of those type guys in an OF.

    Finally I’ve said it before but you gotta get something for Werth and hope for the best with Brown in RF and Ibanez/Francisco in LF, perhaps a deal to the Padres would work since they have a decent system and need offense. Maybe a deal centered around Werth for Simon Castro, James Darnell and Cory Luebke could happen after a quick run through of their system.

  81. Well, I guess it’s a difference of opinion. I think the Phillies with $8MM could’ve done better than Jamie Moyer. You enjoy your Jamie Moyer, and keep praying the Phillies score for him.

  82. The phillies are really in a bind, if they trade Werth people will say they are throwing in the towel. With all those sellouts, not a good idea, I wish we knew what he could bring in a trade, do you think anyone would take blanton or ibanez contracts? I wouldnt care what we got back just unload the money and look for a quality starter in fa or trade.

  83. They won’t be throwing in the towel if they get a solid pitcher for Werth and Brown and Francisco show up to play.

    They need to focus on pitching if they want to be stay in the race, bullpen and starting, if their pitching gets better, the bats will heat up just like they always do at the end of the year.

  84. @DanDan ‘I know most will hate the idea of trading Gose but give Gillies a year to get back and we will have basically the same thing and you can only get one of those type guys in an OF.’

    Wow, cool it on the racist comments. Basically the same thing?

  85. Bob_m and others, remember, do NOT respond to poopy. All he tries to do is incite. He went away for awhile, but now he may be back. Just do not acknowledge any of his comments and he will again get bored and leave.

  86. I think that they can get away with trading Werth and not losing face as long as they bring in pitching. Werth isn’t exactly lighting the world on fire and I think people realize that if they want to stay competitive getting quality back for Werth is essential, and with Dom ready to come up it makes it much easier to handle.

    Clearly meant that Gillies and Gose are the same type of player, i.e. high motor lots of speed good defense in CF, etc…

  87. I get criticized far more than I should on this site. The Savery comments are holding true he had a great outing last time just give it a bit. Sorry I have a different opinion than most of you but the blatantly racist comments that just happened couldn’t be avoided. The only reason I’ve been away for a little is because I was sick of being crucified for my opinions.

  88. If they could trade Werth in a three-team deal that brings us Haren, I’d be all for it. This team needs a spark. Maybe adding Haren to the rotation and substituting a Brown/Francisco platoon for Werth can provide that spark.

  89. Haren just is not having a good year. 4.60 ERA and a 1.35 WHIP. Think I’d rather thake my chances keeping Werth and have him turn it around.

  90. How many good starts have we gotten from Halladay and Hamels with nothing to show for it? The Phils’ biggest problem is offense. Adding another good pitcher at the cost of Werth (and prospects) does not address the correct issue.

    Werth has had three excellent months so far and a bad 15-game stretch in July. Giving up on Werth now would be a mistake and would be tantamount to giving up on the 2010 season.

    It is also unwise to assume that Brown will step right in and match his performances this year in AA and AAA. Have you noticed that Heyward and Stanton, who were more highly regarded prospects than Brown, are not setting the world on fire?

  91. Sorry if this comment has been made ten times already, but I believe the Phillies have already made their mind up on Werth. They know whether or not they will sign him. If they have made the decision not to sign him, he’ll be traded. I hope they don’t blow it.

  92. @derekcarstairs, to say that Werth has only had a bad 15 game stretch is really being way too easy on him. Since June 6th Werth has had 124 AB’s over which time he has 3 home runs, 5 doubles, 13 rbi’s and 33 hits for a 266 average. The average isn’t terrible but there is no pop behind it, for a guy like him to have so few extra base hits during a time when we really needed him to hit isn’t exactly encouraging.

  93. @DanDan

    On June 5th, Werth’s OPS was .952. On June 25th, his OPS was .959.

    Werth’s OPS started dropping on June 26th. So, his slump has lasted 20 games, not 15. I stand corrected.

  94. Poopy, maybe changing your screen name would be a good start to you not being crucified. How did you ever come up with that name????

  95. ugh… I really hope Jared Cosart is not sent to Houston. Im pretty sure they would take him close to straight up for Oswalt because hes a Houston area prospect.

  96. “Ted Lilly is probably the guy I’m most fond of that is still left out there, despite his fly ball tendencies, I’d still prefer not to give away too much but perhaps a package of J.C. Ramirez, Rizzotti, and Gose would get it done. I know most will hate the idea of trading Gose but give Gillies a year to get back and we will have basically the same thing and you can only get one of those type guys in an OF.”

    That is WAY, WAY, WAY too much to give up for a half year of TED LILLY.

  97. 3 team deal is the only way this can work without our farm getting raped again. Werth for prospects that are sent with somebody for Haren or Oswalt.

  98. Hey if the phils got oswalt and traded werth. Could the phils ship Raul to Houston in the deal? Carlos lee or Raul could they play 1b? Berkman will be a fa at the end of the year. Oswalt and berkman come to Philly for happ Raul and prospects from the werth deal? Brown in right Vic in cf and berkman in left with ben Fran as his def replacement?

  99. I think werth is going to Tampa for prospects and prospects maybe even happ and a prospect to Houston for oswalt IF IF he waives his no trade

  100. RE’ only 1 OF of the sort of Gillies, Gose, etc. World Championship team OF- St. Louis Cardinals (under rumored recent HOF candidate- Whitey Herzog) LF- Vince Coleman CF- Willie Maghee RF- Arnold “Bake” McBride.

    Carlos Lee- if they moved virtually Ibanez to Houston for Lee, I think Houston would jump at that, seeing that Lee will rake in around 20 million a year for the next 5 years, something like that. Also Lee has no trade clause and reportedly wanted to go to Houston so he could be close to his big Cattle Ranch in Panama. But, maybe, including this in a deal would hold down the number of prospects needed, but taking on both the Lee and Oswalt contracts and not shedding anywhere near that in contracts makes it very complex.

  101. Werth- Oswalt etc. situation:
    Tampa Bay reputed to want Werth for RF in order to move thier all around player Ben Zobrist to 2B as a regular. This move would free up 2B players Sean Rodriguez and/or Reid Brignac. Philly might hope both as they could use Rodriguez as LF, RF,
    3B, 2B, 1B, etc. and a Right Handed Hitter. May not hit as much as some would like though. Brignac considered more of a talent and a Left Handed Hitter. Houston could use a younger 2B to work in so, they might get one of these, and if they do , Jeff Keppinger might get flipped to Philly, though a bit more expensive. Tampa also has Catcher Dionner Navarro raking in a couple million in minors, so Maybe to Houston as long term back-up to Jason Castro. BIg sticking point may be that teams may want one of Tampa Bays 5 relatively accomplished young starters with the highly touted Jeremy Hellickson in the minors. Also former starter Andy Sonnanstine and numerous relievers for trades. Another wild card might be Tampa’s rumored making available of Uber talent B. J. Upton. Houston might get something from that. If that can be pulled off and the trade to Houston a part, I don’t see much need for Philly to surrender any top prospects. They might get back a useful position player piece from Houston (Keppinger, Jason Bourgeous) and an extra reliever or former starter to be converted to reliever from Tampa Bay. I say these are factors.

  102. The World Champion Cardinals outfield was L. Smith/McGee/Hendrick. And I think it’s safe to say you can’t win in Philadelphia in 2010 with the same kind of team that would win in St. Louis in 1982.

  103. I read that the Phillies were interested in Wade Davis and B J Upton from tampa. The Rays want controllable players in addition to Werth. How about Ryan Madson, since the Rays are not very strong in the bullpen and also Scott Mathieson. Have Tampa throw in Sean Rodriquez.
    One thing I do not think Amarro did well in his deals was getting an add in. For example, Texas got mark Lowe from Seattle with Cliff Lee. Lowe is a very good bullpen component – a real hard thrower and a local guy, while Amarro could have forced the inclusion of Scott Downs in the Halladay deal. Lowe and Downs would have had us avoid the guys they brought into the bullpen.
    And if we get Davis, we hold onto him, because he is big, throws hard and has a bowling ball sinker. B J Upton I would package with Happ and Aumont for Matt Kemp this winter.

  104. Reading the phillies refuse to take on any part of werth contract in a trade. Even if tampa bay is willing to trade some nice prospect for him, here we go again.

  105. The royals will listen on greinke. Is there a prospect the phillies have that would be untouchable in a deal that would bring him to Philly?

  106. I’d send them half of Lakewood, as long as it was the half that didn’t include Colvin, Cosart or Singleton.

  107. I’d drive two of the three to the airport for Greinke, possibly all 3. I love their potential, but there is one thing I like more — a stud that has reached potential, rather than A- ball.

  108. The royals would want colvin and cosart. They are talented but greinke is too. Greinke has cy young award talent. I wouldn’t do an insane deal but if you have to give up two of your top three plus a couple top 10-20 level guys I’d do it.

  109. Could greinke be this years amaro curveball? Like last years halladay talk and bang outta no where a former cy young!!

  110. Nepp, yes I would but kc was hosmer and butler who are at 1b. I think they’d look for pitching or outfield help.

  111. I know gose is an of. Singleton would probably have to to be switched for another pitcher I would assume.

  112. I doubt they’d turn Singleton (a Top 50 prospect) down. They’d figure out a way considering how far away he still is. Swap out Singleton for May or Cosart then.

  113. Nepp u could be rite. Singleton is an excellent talent. I’m just thinking pitching is what they’d be looking for.

  114. It would have been really nice to have a stud pitcher in the system that we could have paired Halladay with.. like Cliff Lee. Amaro is really going to piss me off if we trade for Grienke and give up more prospects that are better then the ones we received for Lee. How the heck did we get such a bad return on such a good pitcher?

  115. I came up with a good scenario in which the Phillies would not lose Werth and gain prospects. Since keeping Werth would be huge to our lineup, we could trade Victorino who is scheduled to make 7.5 million in ’11 and 9.5 million in ’12. We could get a solid pitching prospect or two for Victorino. With Moyer off the books after this year, there would be 14 million shed from those two contracts. And Werth’s expiring contract makes that 21 million. We could sign Werth to a Bay contract…say 4 years, 66 million. We give him 14 million the first year, and we could backload the deal when Lidge’s 11.5 million, Baez’s 2.5 + million, Ibanez’s 11 plus million come off the books in “11. This will give us 7 million dollars to spend on next years roster. Werth would slide into center field, and Brown could play right field. It would work out fine. This is how you manuever pieces around to build a team. Not too panic and trade one of our best players in the middle of the season. Sure it would be nice to get nice prospects for Werth, but Victorino is more expendable and is style of play doesn’t fit the team since he is trying to swing for the fences with a .250 average.

  116. The money “saved” is pretty much eaten up by Halladay’s raise and other built-in raises.

  117. As long as we’re talking realistically, why don’t we just trade Rizzotti for Greinke, Naylor for Oswalt, have a big million-dollar-bill bonfire on the pitcher’s mound of CBP, and summon the spirit of Michael Jack Schmidt to prod all henceforth warning track fly-outs over the fences?

  118. Rizzotti,happ, gose and a pick of one sheve or covin. do you think that would do it or too much for geinke??

  119. mikemike … I’m sure they would choose Colvin in your proposal, but I don’t think that would be enough. They’ve said in order to trade him, they’d require 2 near major league ready arms. The Phillies don’t match up with their needs, so no way they could get Greinke.

  120. ****Rizzotti,happ, gose and a pick of one sheve or covin. do you think that would do it or too much for geinke??****

    Not even close to enough. Think something like Happ, Singleton, Cosart, Gose as a starting point. You’re asking for 2.5 years of a very cost controlled ($13.5 million per) top pitcher in Greinke.

  121. well that why I asked didnt know what it would take. But after the reaction to the haren trade, it seems you never know what it would take. People can’t figure out why diamondbacks took so little.

  122. As per Jayson Stark

    “The Phillies, on the other hand, would trade the Astros left-hander J.A. Happ, whom Houston has now scouted twice in the last week. But the Phillies won’t give up Class A first baseman Jonathan Singleton, a.k.a. their best hitting prospect not named Domonic Brown. They’ve told every team that has called that they’re not interested in moving Singleton, in any deal. “

  123. Would be great to hear what the Phillies offered for Haren that was short of the Angels’ winning bid. This is assuming Arizona was listening to offers from NL teams that did not blow them away, possibly similar to Amaro sending Lee to Seattle. I could easily imagine that Amaro has a sore foot from kicking the desk when he heard the little that the Angels had to give up to acquire a great bargain on the market (for this year and up to two more).

  124. One thing I read was Haren wanted to go to the west coast. Don’t know if he has any veto power.

  125. Yes, mikemike, this is possible. Haren had a limited no-trade clause (I believe 12 teams) and maybe the Phils were on it in the end and simply locked out completely.

  126. i would gladly give up happ, brown, singleton and cosart for greinke. would throw in gose and rizz too.

  127. Ppfan that would bring him to Philly. But that would be over paying. Trading happ is a bad idea. If the phils dump him they’ll still only have 4 starters. I’d trade werth and send what I’d get for him to improve the pitching staff and bring up brown. Don’t need to deplete the system. The talent available isn’t worth mortgaging the future this year.

  128. ****If the phils dump him they’ll still only have 4 starters****

    Halladay
    Hamels
    Blanton
    KK
    [Whoever is traded for…likely a #2 level guy]

    Looks like 5 to me.

  129. i don’t see how it is possible to over pay with prospects for a 26 year old healthy pitcher who won the Cy Young last year with a 2.16 era in the AL on a terrible team. he is a dream player to have on your team. in a 7 game series, running him out there 2 times with halliday and cole 2 times each is unbeatable. it is almost too silly to even discuss. who cares who our #5 starter is. it could be worley for all i care.

  130. nepp,
    kk was just demoted for his inconsisant pitching rite?
    joe blanton has an era after today at 5.85 (ollie perez is 6.15)
    i was being generous when i said the phils had 4 starting pitchers. thanks for looking out i should correct myself. if the phils dump him (happ) they’ll still only have 3 starters.
    Halladay
    Hamels
    Happ

  131. ppfan,

    I guess my point was you listed the phillies most saught after prospects. the phils system is strong enough that they wouldn’t have to give all those players for greinke. kinda like if the sticker price of a car is $30,000 and you pay $40,000 for it. it just wouldn’t make sense. I like greinke alot but the guy has had some personal issues so anybody looking into trading for him should do their homework on him.

  132. So Bob Brookover is talking about Oswalt for Happ, Worley, Gose +1 and Oswalt’s 2012 option, then comitting $100MM to 8 players in 2012. Is that workable?

    Jim Bowden and his Philadelphia sources, Werth is off the table for any trade.

  133. Jayson Stark on Werth this afternoon: “This very column described him 24 hours ago as the best position player available. But officials of two teams that have been talking to the Phillies told Rumblings on Tuesday they no longer believe Werth is getting traded at all. ‘They’re 2½ [games] out of the wild card,’ said one of those officials. ‘I don’t see them selling Werth unless they’re overwhelmed by a [win-now] major league piece.'”

  134. And when you’re assessing the quality of Brookover’s trade deadline information, consider that his story describes Gose as ” a centerfielder at single-A Lakewood.”

  135. I’m not putting up the validity of the inside information for debate. I’m wondering if our system can help support filling out a roster in 2012, considering the developing bullpen that Greg has talked about and filling in some position players (+ FAs obviously).

  136. It’s all posturing at this point. Let’s just see how the cookies crumbles.

  137. The phils should go after mike Lowell. He wouldn’t cost much in prospects he can play 3b for a month and ph. Let’s hope he can dh too if they get that far. Boston would even throw in some $ to make it happen.

  138. Interesting from mlb trade rumors. the players already have been agreed upon in oswalt trade. But the phillies are not sure they want to take on the money and other things , but who are the players is my question. my quess is mathieson, happ and then i am lost.

  139. The Phillies need a legitimate #3. Gose for Carmona. Better yet, Rizzotti, Worley and Mathieson for Carmona.

  140. if its happ and the guys you mentioned bob they need to have oswalt for ’12…oswalt talked about restructuring his contract if he needs to……

  141. I’d much rather keep Happ. Worley, Gose, and JC Ramirez is even too much I think, especially if we’re paying the 32 million.

  142. jk- Oswalt in 12 is part of whats holding up this deal. He apparently wants the Phils to pick up that option and the Phils are leary of that(he has had three cortisone shots in his back this year so there is alot of worry about that).

  143. Worley Gose and JC Ramirez is too much?? I would love if thats the deal. Don’t forget that Oswalt is a STUD. I mean if hes your number three starter you are living quite large.

  144. Why don’t they just offer to convert that Oswalt club option to a vesting option. If he gets 25 starts next year with an ERA under 4.5 or something then 2012 becomes guaranteed.

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