I hope everyone is well, safe, and practicing safe social distancing. I am in the 4th week of self-quarantine. Yes, when they closed the Complex to visitors back on March 13th, I had no reason to go … anywhere. I’m growing my hair and beard out until baseball returns, or until my wife tires of the look.
I’ve expanded my program viewing to stand-ups who I’m not familiar with, mini-series on Marco Polo, the Ottoman Empire, and the Tiger King. That Tiger one is a really weird show. I’ve started watching old sitcoms like Cheers. I was curious to see how it started and how long before I got tired of Diane. One episode. Thank god for Netflix, Cyberflix, and Prime.
Some site posed a question, asking which 3 sports figures would people want to watch on Sunday. It listed a person for nine different sports. And I wasn’t interested in 8 of the selections. I don’t want to watch Mahomes, I want to watch the Eagles. I don’t want to watch Trout, I want the Phillies. The only choice that appealed to me was Alex Morgan and the USWNT. And, if I’m totally honest, I’d watch the women’s national soccer team over all sports. My other two choices weren’t among those offered – the Tour de France and the World Series of Poker. And, those two only slightly beat out Big Ten wrestling.
Anyway, I stopped following the sports news outlets and social messaging. I got tired of the dire news. It’s still too early to give up on the season, but things I heard early after baseball was suspended, that I thought were unlikely are becoming possible. Last week, I down-played someone’s question regarding all teams playing in Arizona. I wish I hadn’t. It’s on the table.
Early on I heard that there might be a minimum number of games that needed to be played to salvage the season (read: to make it worth while for the owners). That number was pretty high so I disregarded it as an unsubstantiated rumor. It’s a lot higher than the suggestions I’ve seen in the comments section.
The last two things I read were that baseball needs the money from concessions, so playing games without fans is not something they want to necessarily do; and, all the post-decision discussion over the shortening of the draft.
Now, I get that messing with the draft hurts players looking forward to entering baseball. But, the pandemic is likely to affect ALL college graduates. There will be a lot of kids entering a workplace that is significantly different from what they expected when they entered college 4 years ago. Just a thought that I haven’t seen addressed with all the attention paid to spring student athletes.
I took a look at the 2019 draft. There were 5236 players eligible for the draft. Of those, 1217 were drafted, 911 signed, 306 did not sign, and 4019 were not selected. Here’s a little breakdown. No point. No ax to grind. Just went thru the draft and wanted to share this info rather than delete it.
I think most of the info is self-explanatory. 4yr=college, HS=high school, JC=junior college, SR=senior, JR=junior, SO=sophomore, FR=freshman, J1-2-3 identifies the year of juco, eligible=the number of players who applied to the draft, 5S=5th year senior. I’m surprised to see high school juniors, college sophomores, and college freshmen eligible. Nine college sophomores were drafted and signed in the first round. It’s also surprising to see the low end of the bonuses for a couple of these groups – like a HS senior signing for $2.5K in the later rounds, or a college junior signing for $5K.
In the first ten rounds, 317 selected and only 2 did not sign:
- 4yr JR: 171 drafted, 171 signed, $2.73m-100k
- HS SR: 61 drafted, 60 signed, 1 unsigned (round 7), $7.79m-125k
- 4yr SR: 60 drafted, 60 signed, $1.8m-1k
- 4yr SO: 9 drafted, 9 signed, $3.02m-200k
- JC J2: 6 drafted, 6 signed, $3.45m-17.5k
- JC J1: 3 drafted, 2 signed, 1 unsigned (round 10), $1.03m-600k
- 4yr 5S: 6 drafted, 6 signed, $72.5k-1k
- JC J3: 1 drafted, 1 signed, $465k
In the final 30 rounds, 900 selected, 596 signed, 304 did not sign, 4019 not drafted
- 4yr JR: 1238 eligible, 217 signed, 46 did not sign, 975 not drafted 493k-5k
- 4yr SR: 1072 eligible, 205 signed, 21 not signed, 846 not drafted, $125k-1k
- HS SR: 1371 eligible, 61 signed, 170 did not sign, 1140 not drafted, $922.5k-2.5k
- 4yr 5S: 302 eligible, 48 signed, 2 did not sign, 252 not drafted, $75k-1k
- JC J2: 493 eligible, 37 signed, 28 did not signed, 428 not drafted, $421.7k-1k
- JC J1: 262 eligible, 19 signed, 18 did not sign, 225 not drafted, $250k-75k
- JC J3: 80 eligible, 5 signed, 3 did not sign, 72 not drafted, $125k-3k
- 4yr SO: 86 eligible, 4 signed, 15 not signed, 67 not drafted, $345k-125k
- 4yr FR: 2 eligible, 2 not drafted
- HS JR: 2 eligible, 1 not signed, 1 not drafted
- 4yr: 5 eligible, 5 not drafted
- NS: 6 eligible, 6 not drafted (NS=no school)
Rosters are frozen, but the Jason Lott signing that I reported back on March 4th finally posted. He’s a 25-year-old RHP from Australia who played for Delta State and South Alabama. He and OF Jordan McArdle played on the Adelaide Bite team that went to the finals in the Australian Baseball League. They were team mates of our Rixon Wingrove, Mitchell Edwards, Cole Stobbe, Ben Aklinski, and Logan O’Hoppe. They all played for new Lakewood BlueClaws manager, Chris Adamson. This is the fulfillment of an agreement that the Phillies would bring two Bite players over for spring training.
This is the Phuture Phillies Open Discussion for Phillies and other baseball topics.
March 17, 2020 – Start date for minor league spring training games March 2020 – Americas Qualifier in Arizona (2020 Olympics qualifier) March 23, 2020 – Final spring training home game v. Rays March 26, 2020 – Phillies’ opening day at Miami, active roster reduced to 26 players March/April 2020 – At-Large Qualifier in Taiwan (2020 Olympics qualifier) April 2, 2020 – Phillies’ home opener v. Milwaukee
- TBD, 2020 – Tentative restart of spring training
- TBD, 2020 – Tentative opening of 2020 MLB season
- TBD, 2020 – Tentative opening of MiLB season
- June 10-12, 2021 – Amateur draft in Omaha, NE
- June 15, 2020 – International amateur signing period closes
- July 2, 2020 – International amateur signing period opens
- July 10, 2020 – Deadline for drafted players to sign, except for players who have exhausted college eligibility
- July 14,2020 – All-Star Game at Los Angeles
- July 31, 2020 – Last day during the season to trade a player
- August 31, 2020 – Last day to be contracted to an organization and be eligible for postseason roster
- September 1, 2020 — Active rosters expand to 28 players
The rosters and lists are up to date as of April 6th … 382 players in the org
- organization’s rosters (4/6)
- organization’s injury list (4/6)
- organization’s Rule 5 eligibility list (includes player info, assignments, …) (4/6)
3/26/2020 – Phillies optioned RHP Edgar Garcia to Lehigh Valley
3/26/2020 – Phillies optioned RF Kyle Garlick to Lehigh Valley
3/26/2020 – Phillies optioned RHP Reggie McClain to Lehigh Valley
3/26/2020 – Phillies optioned LF Nick Williams to Lehigh Valley
3/26/2020 – Phillies optioned LHP Austin Davis to Lehigh Valley
3/26/2020 – Phillies optioned LHP Cole Irvin to Lehigh Valley
3/25/2020 – LHP Bailey Falter assigned to Reading from Lehigh Valley
3/22/2020 – RHP Anthony Swarzak assigned to Lehigh Valley
3/22/2020 – 3B Ali Castillo assigned to Lehigh Valley
3/22/2020 – RHP Blake Parker assigned to Lehigh Valley
3/22/2020 – 2B Logan Forsythe assigned to Lehigh Valley
3/22/2020 – 3B T.J. Rivera assigned to Lehigh Valley
3/16/2020 – CF Yhoswar Garcia assigned to DSL Phillies White
3/14/2020 – Phillies signed international FA CF Yhoswar Garcia to an MiLB contract
3/11/2020 – Phillies signed international FA OF Felix Reyes to an MiLB contract (2/22/20)
3/10/2020 – Phillies optioned Garrett Cleavinger to Lehigh Valley
3/10/2020 – Phillies optioned Mauricio Llovera to Lehigh Valley
3/10/2020 – Phillies assigned Darick Hall to minor league camp
3/09/2020 – C Edgar Cabral assigned to Reading from Clearwater
3/09/2020 – Phillies optioned Deivy Grullon to Lehigh Valley
3/09/2020 – Phillies optioned Arquimedes Gamboa to Reading
3/09/2020 – Phillies assigned Austin Listi to minor league camp
3/07/2020 – Phillies optioned JoJo Romero to Lehigh Valley
3/07/2020 – Phillies optioned Adonis Medina to Reading
3/07/2020 – Phillies optioned Cristopher Sanchez to Reading
3/07/2020 – Phillies assigned Kyle Dohy to minor league camp
3/07/2020 – Phillies assigned Damon Jones to minor league camp
3/07/2020 – Phillies assigned Zach Warren to minor league camp
3/04/2020 – Phillies signed OF Jordan McArdle to a minor league contract
4/02/2020 – Phillies signed RHP Jason Lott to minor league contract
232 thoughts on “Open Discussion: Week of April 6th”
Jim; I posted last week from a person I know who works for a sports agency that Major League Baseball is preparing if Florida flares up late with the coronavirus similar to what New York is experiencing now all MLB teams would conduct ST in AZ with teams doubling up at current Cactus League facilities and utilizing colleges for the overflow…Seemed at the time insane to me but everyday this stretches out the insane becomes possible..
What makes you think that Arizona will allow all those people to come into there state? makes no sense
rocco….everyone will probably get tested with the latest from Abbott, Thermo Fisher, Cepheid and there are also old reliable like LabCorp and Quest jumping in with advanced and quicker test results. So I ma sure they will make sure all the players are negative before beginning.
The idea passed along to me was the MLB teams not Floridians..
Funny Jim that you should mention Tiger King and Cheers, as my wife and I just finished TK and are watching Cheers on Netflix from the beginning.
Highly recommend TK, good stuff although I’m not sure why. Cheers is just something we all could probably use right now – an innocent, light-hearted comedy set in one of just many social settings we miss as a society. Feels almost therapeutic.
I am trying to fulfill my baseball hunger by checking the simulated Strat-O-Matic scores everyday. Looks like Gabe is still managung, lol.
Also rewatching Band of Brothers. Netflix series; Kim Convenience, very funny 24 minute episodes and also The Civil War, The Untold Story, 5 episodes.
Jim, Are you going to continue with your stab at the Threshers Roster if the season ever gets going. You did Catchers, I saw that but have not seen pitchers or position players.
Maybe. I started the middle infielders, but found the speculation of baseball’s start/cancellation too frustrating to continue.
My wife and I binged The Tiger King this weekend. It’s hard to believe just how much drama one guy (Joe Exotic) could jam into his life.
For me, it was sad to see those animals exploited. The scene near the end of the final episode where the caged ape squeezes his hand through the bars searching for some human touch really hurt me. And how ironic that Joe Exotic would complain about being locked up and the conditions he faced in jail.
To cope with the lack of sports and competition, I have found myself turning to game shows. Aside from The Price Is Right (the GOAT), I’ve been tuning in to Game Show Network (Comcast channel 1425 in S Jersey) and BZZR (Comcast channel 246 in S Jersey). BZZR features many of the old shows like Concentration, Card Sharks, Sale Of The Century, Password, and Press Your Luck. On Game Show Network, I especially recommend America Says. It’s fun to play along with/compete.
Also … Game Show Network features reruns of Cash Cab (one of the most ingenious TV shows of all time) on weekend afternoons.
The other show we enjoy (and I mentioned this a few weeks ago) is The Masked Singer on FOX. They’re midway through the current season, but you can use your On Demand to binge watch from the very beginning.
Last week, I posted a Phillies only mock draft. I had Matt Klentak selecting:
C Austin Wells (round 1)
LHP Seth Lonsway (round 3)
RHP Nick Frasso (round 4)
RHP Carson Ragsdale (round 5)
Here’s my second shot at it.
Phillies mock 2.0 …
ROUND 1: Cole Henry RHP LSU …. is the pitcher that most intrigues me as a possibility for 1-15 (assuming Hancock, Lacy, Detmers, Meyer, and Cavalli are picked ahead of the Phillies). Henry has the combination of now stuff and future projection. The Arkansas native is the best pitching prospect out of LSU since Aaron Nola. He features a 92-96 MPH FB, a plus (plus-plus at times) CB, and a solid avg CH. Even more encouraging, Henry is still just 20 YO (about a year older than some prep players available in June), has room to fill out his 6’4″, 210 lb frame, and has been successful in the premier conference in America (SEC). In 2019 (as a freshman), Henry went 58.1 IP, 50 H, 18 BB, 72 K. In 2020 (as a sophomore), he totaled 19 IP, 15 H, 6 BB, 23 K before the season was called. The only strike against him is the fact that he had to be shut down towards the end of his freshman season when scar tissue caused some swelling on nerves in his right arm. He had no health issues this year.
ROUND 2: This pick was forfeited for signing Zack Wheeler (who was anchored with a QO). Swapping their 2020 second round pick for Wheeler (a former 1-6 selection) was a no-brainer for the Phillies.
ROUND 3: Jordan Nwogu OF Michigan … not only looks the part (6’3″, 235 lbs … and chiseled), he has put up the numbers to back up his prospect status. During his three year career with the Wolverines, he has slashed .335/.442/.577, 18 HRs, 27 SBs out of the leadoff hole. Nwogu is still a bit raw, but he has a sky high ceiling.
ROUND 4: Shane Drohan LHP FSU … is a former Phillies draft pick (23rd round in 2017) who took a pass on pro ball for a career with the Seminoles. The 6’3″, 200 lb southpaw features a 91-94 FB, plus CB, and solid avg CH. At FSU, Drohan has been inconsistent (plenty of K’s, but waaay too many BB’s). He’s totaled 73.2 IP, 65 H, 69 BB, 99 K in three years of college ball. However he was showing improvement this shortened season (17.2 IP, 15 H, 11 BB, 27 K).
ROUND 5: Ben Joyce RHP Walters State JUCO … didn’t pitch much in HS. He also missed his first JUCO season in 2019 with a stress fracture in his throwing elbow (didn’t require surgery). However, the 6’5″, 225 lb RHP really took off in fall ball six months ago when he hit triple didgits on the radar gun. This year, Joyce has been mostly 95-96 with an above avg CH. He’s still working on a CB. He’s tallied 20.2 IP, 11 H, 14 BB, 35 K.
For good measure … here’s a suggestion for a senior sign (Note: no player undrafted can sign for more than $20,000 so each team will have to sell opportunity/easiest path to MLB, geography, etc to convince the best undrafted players to sign with them).
Undrafted FA: Landon Knack RHP East Tennessee St … will probably be the most sought after senior. The 6’0″, 240 lb thrower will turn 23 YO in July. During his four collegiate seasons (2 JUCO & 2 at East Tennessee St), Knack has totaled 230.2 IP, 185 H, 31 BB, 266 K. This season, he posted an eye popping 51 K to just 1 BB.
Bryce hitting the road during the lay-off
If we have any kind of baseball season, I’m looking for Harper to put up MVP type production.
To tell you the truth…I am more optimistic on Harper, than Hoskins.
Just hope both can do it, if the season does happen.
I see the MLB season starting in Arizona in May chatter is heating up. ESPN is running with it. Details seem crazy but again I keep telling myself to forget what’s crazy in this most crazy of years… The logistics to pull this off for players,coaches and support staff is unreal by the way of testing.. Social distancing of players by having them sit in the stands? Electronic umps. Use Chase Field as the primary location but utilize other ST sites and colleges for games when needed…Night games for East Coast teams and TV viewership would be brutal.. That’s why I say they may start the season in Arizona but by July 1st move teams back to their home locations.. That’s my opinion and not ESPN or any MLB source. Btw, the reason Arizona is being floated and not Florida is the concentration of facilities in the Phoenix area and the Coronavirus has been much less of an issue than Florida.. As I wrote; crazy…
The MLB season is not starting in May – there is zero chance of that happening in Arizona or anywhere else. At best, you’re probably looking at a late June or early July start and there’s a good chance that there’s no 2020 MLB season at all. I still believe there will be minor league baseball, even if it starts at the beginning of August and goes through mid-October with nobody in the stands. They need to develop minor league players. Those guys need to play if there’s a safe way to do so and I suspect there will be.
I think the next two weeks will clarify things considerably… Per ESPN the MLBPA is involved in the discussions which tells me it’s at least being considered…The MLB is losing hundreds of millions of dollars a month right now and money as we know drives decisions…Any change in CDC protocols which then flows to state health officials and Governors decisions on “essential” businesses would go into the close/open season decisions… I’m so ready for baseball…
This is straight up craziness. The logistics to quarantine 30 teams and their clubhouse staff, (and the umpires and the media and the camera crew) to organize a schedule around limited stadiums (10?), to do a crazy amount of testing and not to mention playing games in the Arizona heat (there’s a reason why Chase Field is covered) is mind boggling. I know people want baseball but this is going to be a disaster. Do we really want baseball in this form?
Supposedly the logistics at Chase would allow for three games a day excluding extra inning affairs which may involve an understanding of either ties or some other accommodation of sudden death innings. Late afternoon or night games outdoors at ST sites would still be toasty even in June. Listening to the MLB Network guys they don’t think it would be a full season in AZ; maybe May and June and then move back to the home cities. The question “do we really want baseball in this form?” My answer for 2020 if we want baseball at all this may be it.. If we’re missing baseball this bad now wait until June or July… My guess fans will take this deal..
3 games a day? Wouldn’t the field (any field) take a beating after a week?
Think about this: The first game is at 11am. Everything has to be cleaned before anybody arrives. Once the game finishes at say 2pm, then everybody has to to clear out (players, staff, umpires) , everything has to be cleaned, for the next set of games to start at say 4:30pm. Then repeat again for the 10pm games. This is bananas.
I want baseball as much as the next person, but what I don’t want is stoppages (because somebody is sick) or delays (because in a baseball game, anything can happen).
There’s so many moving parts, the odds of something happening are pretty high.
And playing games in 100+ heat? That’s is going to be rough on the players. There’s no way JT can play back to back games.
They do something similar to that in the fall…granted there are only six teams and two teams shared one field last season I think because Mesa or Scottsdale’s, just cannot recall what park now, was being renovated.
They could easily play ‘doubleheaders’ in a park…….two games, four different teams..
But doing it in summer down there can be difficult….they normally play their rookie ball league games in the evenings/night
With Chase Field and 10 other facilities supposedly available, 30 teams to accommodate, that figures to be a 15 games a day (except for off days like Monday or Thursday) divided among 11 venues. I don’t think one ballpark would need to facilitate THREE games on any given day. All within a 50 mile radius.
Crazy? Considering the circumstances, hardly.
Probability? 50/50, once all the voices are heard and agreements are made.
Provided measures are taken for the welfare of all involved, let’s make some lemonade from these lemons.
Read where the KBO wants tp open and play in two weeks……however, just one single positive test from anyone connected to a team….two more weeks quarantine for the whole group.
Playing in Arizona will be a bit crazy for sure…..I would think they would use the AFL basic scheduling system…..games starting at 12..another at 4PM and then yet another at 8PM….six different teams in the one venue stadium….and just keep televising thru the day to the respective team’s local market.
Who knows….there could be a myriad of odd ways for this scheduling fiasco.
12-4-8? That leaves no accommodation for the 4+ hour games routinely played by the Yankees and Red Sox. 😉 😉 😉
Hah…..three games would be too tight for sure. …maybe two at one site on one day.
But playing day games in Arizona in June/July /August like Guru said, would be way too grueling ….have to be early evening start times I would think for the first game…maybe 5PM….(8PM EDT)..then clear those two teams and start the last game.
Day games at Chase where the roof can be closed and evening games at the the other locales…
I love the idea of getting MLB started in May.
I’m sure IF executed, it’ll be an airtight proposal, ie hotels for players, strict rules, testing, etc.
Part of me thinks they’re planning for May but fully are prepared to start in June or July.
Obviously they won’t do it if it’s a risky endeavor.
Of note – NBA said they won’t have clarity on season until May 1st. That tells me they are considering something similar.
Hope everyone is doing well.
I know this is a baseball site … but … at a time where there is no sports available, the NFL is holding their draft later this month. It’s not going to be the usual public spectacle. Instead, it will be a “virtual” draft. The clubs’ front office personnel won’t even gather together at each teams’ facilities. They will communicate amongst themselves from their own houses. It will be the first live sports broadcast (that I’m aware of) of any type since the second week of March.
Speaking of the NFL draft, if you have an Athletic subscription (seems like a lot of you do), take advantage of it by downloading Dane Brugler’s draft publication. It’s called The Beast. He puts it out every year, and it is always one of most (if not THE MOST) thorough sports publications of the year.
Now that Keith Law is with the Athletic, I’m hoping he puts together something similar to Brugler’s Beast.
And … I’ve posted this many times before: MLB has been wasting, for years, the opportunity to make their draft a more watchable and extravagant event by not allowing teams to trade picks.
100% agree.. The MLB draft embarrassing compared to the NBA/NFL drafts..
If I were a GM…first thing I would want is a trade value chart similar to what the NFL has. Get analytics together and decide how to quantify a draft slot.
Will keep you informed on Law, Hinkie, as I am subscriber.
RU … Thanks. I’m also an Athletic subscriber so I’ll be able to have access to Keith Law. I know when he was with ESPN, he put out a list closer to the June draft. I think it went 100 deep, but it was nothing like Dane Brugler’s NFL draft report for the Athletic. I’m hoping with the Athletic, Law puts something out even more in depth.
BTW … Hope you and your family are well during this pandemic.
MLB, instead of improving the situation with draft picks made it worse, I believe, by not allowing picks that were previously able to be traded to now be. MLB is far behind the other teams to start because of the rarity of immediate impact players. But they could still heighten the excitement by allowing trades.
matt13……how about no high school kids eligible to get drafted….just as the NFL does….but all must complete three years in a college equivalent setting or post high school development program..
The NFL for obvious reasons is the only sport to have this now, however realistically , IMO, less than 1% of HS players are capable of going straight into the major leagues from HS….the ARods, Ken Griffey Jr, Jeff Burroughs, maybe a few others over the last 30/40 years.
MLB wants to cut the number of minor league teams…..that could be one avenue on their agenda in accomplishing that objective.
Reducing the number of rounds in the draft is the other alternative.
And, Al Kaline. He was signed by the Tigers as a “bonus baby” on June 19, 1953 and made his pro debut on June 25, 1953 against the Philadelphia Athletics, entering the game as a CF in the 6th inning and going 0-1 in a 5-2 loss.
This was before the draft as we know it. Rules at the time stipulated that a signed first year player had to be on the MLB roster all season. Kaline batted .250 in 30 plate appearances his first season, played full-time in 1954 finishing 3rd in the ROY, was an All Star from 1955 thru 1967, and finished 2nd in MVP voting in 1955, 3rd in 1956.
Kaline’s team mates that season included 1953 ROY Harvey Keunn, Johnny Pesky in his last productive season (.292), and Ray Boone (Bob’s dad).
They are few and far between…..Joe Nuxhall another…only 15 years old.
But in the last 50 years just a few …then there was also I remember David Clyde in 1973, Tim Conroy and Mike Morgan a few years later…but really not many.
And most just do not cut it.
I can see the Commissioner thinking about something like that at some point to reduce minor league teams…he seems to be open to anything these days.
Dwight Gooden was just 19 – I remember because I was born the same year and when I was just trying to hand in my college papers on time, he was striking out 16 batters in consecutive games. It is almost impossible to overstate how great Dwight Gooden was his first two years in the majors. If he hadn’t lost his way and they hadn’t made him throw so many innings at such a young age, he literally could have been the greatest pitcher who ever lived. It was something to see when he was at his peak.
Dwight Gooden was nasty. He had an electric fastball and a ridiculous curveball. In 1985, at age 20, he had one of the best seasons ever for a pitcher: 12.2 WAR.
Yeah he was great for sure. No one could touch him for a number of years.
He did spend a few years in the minors after the Mets drafted him
What surprised me was he ended up being close to a 50WAR pitcher…even with all the troubles later on his career.
And there are only 58 pitchers in MLB history who had a higher WAR than Gooden.
He was on his way to the HoF if he kept himself straight for another 4/5 years.
Al Kaline was the consummate professional in every regard. Motown lost a true icon and we all lost a great ball player and spokesman for baseball. Just another one of the momentous events to occur in baseball on 1954 – his rookie year !
I think one reason why MLB doesn’t allow trading of picks is that you’ll get the cheap teams just trade their picks for cash. Let’s face it, the odds are low that a prospect will succeed, even for a first round pick. So if I’m a cheap team like the Marlins, I can quickly monetize my pick. So let’s just say I have the #8 pick, and I don’t think the player will make it that far, I can just open it up for business and get a C type prospect and perhaps $2M?
I’ll get my immediate cash, I’m still a bad team, and I’ll get revenue sharing. I’ll still make money for the year, even though I have no shot of making the playoffs let alone win a title.
What is the best site to rewatch the phillies’ 2009 WS series without a Yankee slant?
Whatever site allows you to use a “mute” button for the sound.
Big LOL. Thanks, I needed that.
:). You’re welcome – be well.
Hinkie: I know you’re doubtful that the Phillies will take a hs player in the first round, but I really like this OF out of Florida named Zac Veen. Have any thoughts on him?
I like Zac Veen a lot. Almost 0% chance he’ll be available at 1-15. I think Detroit could even take him with the 1-1 pick.
Looks like Kyle Tucker when he cane out of HS.
Romus I have a old car. If there is baseball in Arizona can you drive me to Arizona I will pay for gas,
rocco…sure thing buddy,…..just keep your mask on, all the way down.
Romus, one of the few positive byproducts of the “season of the mask”….an improvement over what’s underneath for so many of us, aye?
BTW……did you hear one way of decontaminating a mask…N95…I assume….is after using it put it into an unused BROWN PAPER sandwich bag, crinkle it closed, and wait for three days..72 hours….and then use it again, and also discard the brown paper bag. Seems the paper component give soff something inside the closed bag….I do that for green bananas, larger bag naturally, but that works and turns them yellow….who thought it would ever work for N95 masks.
That is what a nursing facility outside Philly is doing with their medical staff.
Maybe Roc can bypass the mask and go with the brown paper bag? Maybe not…his face may turn yellow.
Dang…looks like his stock has risen since earlier drafts mocked him in the mid-first round. Not surprised though–his swing/potential is THAT good.
While doing research on the draft, I came across this. A list of all players who went right from the draft (after 1965) to MLB without playing a game in the minors. (position,name, draft year, school, and team).
1. RHP Mike Adamson in 1967 out of USC by Baltimore
2. RHP Steve Dunning in 1969 out of Stanford by Cleveland
3. RHP Burt Hooton in 1971 out of Texas at Austin by Chicago Cubs
4. 3B/OF Rob Ellis in 1971 out of Michigan State by Milwaukee
5. RHP Pete Broberg in 1971 out of Dartmouth by Washington
6. IF Dave Roberts in 1972 out of Oregon by San Diego
7. RHP Dick Ruthven in 1973 out of Fresno State by Philadelphia
8. OF Dave Winfield in 1973 out of Minnesota by San Diego
9. LHP David Clyde in 1973 out of Westchester HS by Texas
10. LHP Eddie Bane in 1973 out of Arizona State by Minnesota
11. PR Herb Washington, signed as a free agent in 1974 by Oakland
12. RHP Mike Morgan in 1978 out of Valley HS by Oakland
13. 3B Bob Horner in 1978 out of Arizona State by Atlanta
14. LHP Tim Conroy in 1978 out of Gateway HS by Oakland
15. C Brian Milner in 1978 out of TCU by Toronto
16. RF Pete Incaviglia in 1985 out of Oklahoma State by Texas
17. LHP Jim Abbott in 1988 out of Michigan by California
18. 1B John Olerud in 1989 out of Washington State by Toronto
19. RHP Darren Dreifort in 1993 out of Wichita State by Los Angeles
20. RHP Chan Ho Park in 1994 out of Hanyang University (Seoul) by LAD
21. RHP Ariel Prieto in 1995 out of Fajardo Regional College by Oakland
22. OF/IF Xavier Nady in 2000 out of California by San Diego
23. RHP Mike Leake in 2009 out of Arizona State by Cincinnati
A few comments on one these names – John Olerud – lots of interesting stuff about him.
First, he’s one of the more underrated players in MLB history – he put up nearly 60 WAR and there are a lot of HOFers (including Harold Baines, by the way) who were not as good as he was. And he wasn’t just a number compiler – he had two plus 7 WAR seasons and made a serious run at hitting .400 late into the 1993 season. If he hadn’t been such a good hitter he probably would have been a decent MLB pitcher – he was one of the best two-way players in NCAA history.
Second, he went in the third round of the MLB draft because he told teams he was going back to college for his senior year and because, in part, he had an aneurysm that nearly killed and required him to wear a helmet at all times on the field. The Blue Jays took a great gamble, drafted him and offered him too much money for him to refuse.
The helmet sparked one of the best stories of all time (and a Ricky Henderson classic, of which there are many). When he was on the Mets and wearing a helmet on the field, Ricky Henderson came up to him and said, “I used to play with a guy who wore a helmet on the field” to which Olerud replied “yeah, Ricky, that was me!” That has to be one of the funniest little baseball stories I have ever heard.
Jim…just not many high schoolers in that list.
I am willing to bet Commish Manfred will eventually pull the plug on drafting high school players.
Already he wants the drafts to be out of Omaha Nebraska during the CWS.
It appears he wants to build a stronger tie between MLB and NCAA and make the draft a big TV event , along the way the NFL is doing it.
Also he just seems to be leaning wanting more college players coming into the game…and at the same time cut costs for MLB teams for running extensive minor league development with every team having between 7 or 8 minor league teams in their systems..
Romus I like Ray Finkel out of miami
you sure..Ray Finkel or Sean Young?
Not allowing HS players creates a problem. How does the commissioner prevent them from entering the draft when 16-year-old international players are signing as free agents. Now, even if MLB and the MLBPA agree on instituting an international draft, do they still allow high school age players from other countries to be drafted? Do they have to wait until they’re 18? 19? I’m sure the buscones would love to pay for an additional 2-3 years supporting these young players. 😉
I know Burt Hooten pitched about 15 minor league games then got called up in Sept of draft year. Maybe this list is guys who made major league debuts in draft year
Or, maybe he was drafted on June 8th by the Cubs and made his professional debut on June 17th. So, maybe this IS a “list of baseball players who went directly to the major leagues. They are distinguished as a group by the fact that they made their North American professional debut with a Major League Baseball franchise without previously having played at the professional level (excluding fall leagues and winter leagues), such as minor league affiliates of major league teams, the Negro Leagues, Japanese professional leagues, or independent professional teams.”
How is everyone holding up? Hope you are all healthy and well. I self quarantined from the site since no baseball is going on. I did watch a few of the replays Doc’s perfect game against the Marlins and the no hit bid against the Reds.
It actually made me more depressed. Then to Hinkie’s point above I watched that stupid Tiger King which is probably something I would have never watched had they been playing baseball. I love animals too much.
In any event I realized when my buddy called me yesterday to ask me if I heard about the news about a shortened season in AZ. I said no I know nothing about it. That motivated me to stop in and see what was being discussed.
You gents are real troopers.
Perhaps it has reaffirmed my love for the game itself supersedes all else. I’m finding no joy in past greatness. The show must go on as they say. I’m not sure I would watch 7 Inning games as was being described.
My opinion is they should only play if they play the game as we know it eyeing either a 94 or 82 game season.
DMAR, I remember the Legend of Bagger Vance, when Jack Lemmon’s character was an old hacker at golf. He dies on the course one day near the end of the movie. He said, in so many words, that whether he played the game well or not, it was all about being out there, playing the game.
For us baseball phanatics here, winning is what we talk about, BUT no matter how long the drought, we love baseball nonetheless. It’s about watching games and following young talent, from high school to the majors. Winning every now and then doesn’t keep the blood coursing through our veins. The game of baseball itself does. Good, bad, and ugly.
Here here 8mark 🙂
Quite a subjective, unscientific exercise – I’m not very sophisticated, but very bored. Anyway, here’s my perception of how well run MLB teams are from best to worst….bearing in mind small vs large markets, ownership, and consistency in being playoff relevant. (This isn’t a ranking of minor league systems.)
1 Los Angeles Dodgers
2 Tampa Bay Rays – nobody shows up, but the show is worth watching.
3 New York Yankees – a weak farm doesn’t keep them from making hay from year to year.
4 St Louis Cardinals
5 Atlanta Braves
6 Oakland Athletics – they manage to be there almost every year on a shoestring, ala Tampa.
7 Houston Astros – definitely took a hit, but still…
8 Milwaukee Brewers
9 Washington Nationals – I hate to admit it, but…
10 Minnesota Twins
11 Boston Red Sox
12 Cincinnati Reds
13 Philadelphia Phillies – the FO is at a crossroads.
14 Cleveland Indians
15 Chicago Cubs – treading water and bad contracts.
16 Chicago White Sox – with a bullet!
17 Texas Rangers – always thought they should win more with the resources they have. Tough division.
18 Seattle Mariners
19 Miami Marlins
20 Toronto Blue Jays
21 Arizona Diamondbacks
22 Kansas City Royals – the Pirates of the midwest.
23 San Francisco Giants – a step backward with their most recent managerial hire.
24 San Diego Padres – a very good farm is where it ends.
25 Los Angeles Angels
26 Colorado Rockies
27 New York Mets – the gang that can’t shoot straight.
28 Pittsburgh Pirates – one day, their ownership will break out of their small market mindset.
29 Detroit Tigers
30 Baltimore Orioles – well, at least Inner Harbor is a nice place to visit.
15…Cubs…..22.Royals…23. Giants….three clubs with rings in the last 6 years….maybe they should get a pass.
8mark, I have no problem with your list. Based on our market, fan base and Ballpark, and giving us more than enough time to execute a rebuild, the only reason we are not a Top 6 club on that list is the Front Office. This is, exactly as you stated, a crossroads, and I feel the shortened season will give the Management folks another season if this one proves to be unsuccessful. I am hoping things break our way and many more players excite us than disappoint.
There’s a whole lot of draft info in this from Kiley McDaniel (now working for ESPN since Keith Law jumped to the Athletic).
Among the highlights:
* The 2020 draft will consist of either 5 or 10 rounds. Most think it will be only 5.
* It’s rumored some clubs may not have the cash flow to actually spend all of the draft pool money that they’re allotted.
* Teams will be more incentivized to play it safe this year and draft players in the order in which they like them. In other words, a lot less shifting bonus money around.
* The exception to this would be a team drafting top 5 round talent red shirt juniors and red shirt seniors (who are already 22 and 23 YO) and offering under slot bonuses to be able to overpay a kid in the 5th round (when some of the more cash strapped clubs are looking to squeeze college juniors to save a few bucks). Bryce Jarvis and Landon Knack (I’ve previously written [and posted video] about each are examples of RS JR and RS SEN who could take under slot deals.
* Prep players who will be soph eligible in 2022 will have the greatest leverage because they can head to college and be drafted again in just two years when the draft will return to normal (more rounds, higher slot bonuses, and not having to wait 2 years to receive your signing bonus).
* Kids who are recovering from TJ will not be hurt as bad this year because there is a lot less info/data on every player.
And here are some of McDaniel’s rankings for the 2020 draft:
1. Spencer Torkelson
2. Austin Martin
3. Nick Gonzales
4. Zac Veen
5. Asa Lacy
6. Emerson Hancock
7. Jared Kelley
8. Austin Hendrick
9. Tyler Soderstrom
10. Robert Hassell
11. Max Meyer
12. Reid Detmers
13. Cade Cavalli
14. Garrett Crochet
15. Heston Kjerstad
16. Slade Cecconi
17. Nick Bitsko
18. Garrett Mitchell
19. Mick Abel
20. Patrick Bailey
23. Tanner Burns
25. Carmen Mlodzinski
29. Cole Wilcox
31. J.T. Ginn
32. Chris McMahon
42. Bryce Jarvis
50. Tommy Mace
53. Austin Wells
55. Seth Lonsway
65. Cole Henry
85. Landon Knack
96. Hugh Fisher
Interesting he has Lacy a nudge over Hancock.
And has plenty SEC arms going up thru 31.
I figured Mace and Henry may be a little higher but he probably knows more about them.
Yeah. I love Cole Henry. He has him at 65. I’d pick him at 1-15 if Meyer, Detmers, and Cavalli were gone.
He’s also got Austin Wells pretty low at 53. He’s another guy I believe makes a lot of sense for the Phillies at 1-15.
Henry did start out pretty good this season…what with only 19 innings in 4 games…but his metrics were good in non-SEC conference games.
But Indiana and Texas are good clubs……UMass and Eastern Kentucky are a notch below.
Maybe Kiley McD. knows more about Henry from scouts than the rest of us.
I think the fact that he had to be shut down near the end of his freshman season (2019) when scar tissue caused some swelling on nerves in his right arm affects his draft status. The good news is Henry was completely healthy for the shortened 2020 season.
CBS writer Matt Snyder posted the Phillies all time roster (in his view) today….mostly on point. He talks about his favorite cyber baseball game. It sparked thoughts of my old favorite – Strat-O-Matic, with actual player cards and dice and the diamond on the board between opposing “managers”, or solitaire. I played both as a young lad into my formative years, forming one neighborhood league after another until well, we all grew out of it. But mostly by myself, often late at night. While I enjoyed each year’s edition when it would come out every January, based on the prior season, the very best was the Hall of Fame edition which came out circa 2000. Even as a 37 year old single guy (at the time), I couldn’t resist. Awesome player cards which contained each and every one of the 196 greats (including Shoeless Joe and Charlie Hustle), based on their career stats with righty/lefty splits….but no WAR, thankfully. (By the way, #1 in WAR was Michael Jack at 106.9; 2nd was Chase’s 62!)
Anyway, the alltime Phillies lineup (no current team members) are as follows….
C Dutch Daulton
1b Ryan Howard
2b Chase Utley
SS Jimmy Rollins
3b Mike Schmidt
LF Dick Allen (over Chuck Klein due to the fact that the latter played in hitter friendly era, while Allen faced the elite arms of the pitching rich 60s)
CF Richie Ashburn
RF Bobby Abreu
SPs (4) Steve Carlton, Robin Roberts, Pete Alexander and Cole Hamels
Reliever (1) Tug McGraw
Bench – “Chooch”, Scott Rolen, Von Hayes, Garry Maddox and Johnny Callison.
Snyder admits to leaving out many debatable options. But that would be a fun roster for me to manage in Strat-O-Matic.
Good lineup for sure….however trying to fit Dick Allen onto the field had to be difficult, I’d have put him at first base heck, the Bull was a better defensive LFer than Dick according to all the defensive metrics. and who played less than a total of 200 innings in LF for the Phillies in his career in Philly..
less than a total of 200 GAMES.
Yeah, I would go with the following lineup…
I would also replace Von Hayes with Juan Samuel on the bench.
Well, does anyone want to fill time putting together a readers’ all time roster? Snyder’s list is a fine list, but it is compiled by a youngish midwesterner (born in ’78) who is not a Philadelphia sports fan. Our more diverse readership may value some older players more so than he. Let me know below. I’ll conduct polling. And, I’m anal enough to consider almost everyone – Bunning, Wise, Konstanty, Bedrosian, Halladay, Lee, etc.
Jim, I’m game for this! Love the idea.
The list makes me realize how special the 2008 team was. Three position players as the all time best. still think they should have won more.
I was born in the 60s. Using that timeframe and regardless of how much I liked Whitey, do u go Maddox or Victorino in CF?
Maddox was rock steady and a great guy, as is Victorino, but Shane wasn’t as consistent IMO.
Regarding Jim’s idea above, I do think voting would also be based mainly on popularity/proximity (in time) so more recent players will be considered more favorably. 1950 and on will naturally have the majority of candidates. Klein and Alexander played in an era when few if any PP readers were born yet. But I’m all for a poll….hell, we ain’t got nuttin’ else to do.
“……..we ain’t got nuttin’ else to do”!!!!
You mean to tell me, you have already sanitized and sterilized your entire garage and basement!
Nah, but I am clearing out the basement. Got myself a 30 feet dumpster bin. The virus is what finally got the wife to agree to purge.
I should say the lockdown, not the virus.
The 5th sequel…. “The Purge – Lockdown”
jpeyton – Great list of players who went straight to the major leagues after being drafted. Interesting that there has been only one since 2009 and only three in the last 25 years. Goes to show how difficult it is to get to the majors period.
Also, Dick Allen in left field should probably had been done while he was in the minor leagues. His first two years with the Phillies he committed 41 and 26 errors. In his 15 years in the league, Schmidt made a total of 298 at third. At least Allen played better at first base.
Not sure where you should put him but I saw Richie Allen in his rookie season of 1964 and he is still in my mind the most talented Phillie player I have ever witnessed, with Michael Jack a close second. Allen’s 64-66 seasons, before he hurt his hand, and in a pitching dominated era, were incredible.
Discovered this really good channel on Youtube the other day. This video on Juan Soto is pretty illuminating:
Wow, there are some interesting ideas being thrown around:
Instead of an NL/AL league, they will have cactus/grapefruit league. The DL would be universally implemented, and they will have some sort of expanded playoffs.
For logistics, this would be easier to implement. The teams have control over their facility, and most of the team equipment is still there I’m sure.
However, the Arizona/Florida heat would be serious issues. You would for sure have to operate with a 35-40 man roster to counter it.
Again, I pose the question, do we want baseball in this form?
15 teams based in Florida, 15 in Arizona. I guess they wouldn’t schedule series but single games since at least 1 team would have to be off.
I’m with the Guru. I miss baseball, but I think I’d rather just wait for the games to be played the way they’re supposed to (even if it risks no season in 2020). I’ve already accepted the fact there won’t be an end to/a champion crowned to either the NBA or NHL. I was bummed, but have now come to terms with the loss of March Madness and the bulk of the college baseball season.
I’m not really interested in seeing the Phillies vs the Pirates from somewhere in the middle of Arizona at 11 o’clock at night in front of no fans. Then when some player gets sick (and you know that’s going to happen), they shut the season down again. I’ll just wait for the COVID-19 to pass/be defeated (whenever that happens).
Hinkie….Phillies will play in Florida….not Arizona.
North: Phillies, Yankees, Blue Jays, Tigers, Pirates
South: Braves, Red Sox, Twins, Rays, Orioles
East: Nationals, Marlins, Mets, Cardinals, Astros
And in Arizona …
Northeast: Cubs, Giants, Diamondbacks, Rockies, Athletics
West: Dodgers, Angels, White Sox, Reds, Indians
Northwest: Brewers, Padres, Mariners, Rangers, Royals
Maybe I’ve missed something … but … as far as I’ve heard/read, COVID-19 is heating up (no pun intended) in Florida. Does MLB really think bringing half the league there is going to work?
I’m no biologist or epidemiologist, but I still believe we’ll see baseball sometime in June. Just a heartfelt hunch….🙏
Perhaps in empty stadiums.
KBO is starting to do their groundwork for opening.
Romus, In the not-so-fast department, Korea Friday reported that 91 cases of former COVID-19 patients with the illness recurring. Of those, 40 occurred this past week.
Yesterday also saw 27 new cases and seven deaths, though the number of new cases is the lowest since the outbreak began.
Yeah….that was addressed yesterday at the briefing to Dr Fauci.
Oh well they may be delaying things over there then..
I think MLB is watching to see how the Korea and Japan baseball leagues handle their situations.
in making an all-time team, what consideration should go to Dead Ball Era players like Ed Delahanty and Sliding Billy Hamilton? Or to early 20th Century Hall of Famers like shortstop Davey Bancroft and pitcher Eppa Rixey?
Here’s my try:
C Bob Boone
1B Dick Allen
2B Chase Utley
3B Mike Schmidt
SS Jimmy Rollins
OF Ed Delahanty
OF Richie Ashburn
OF Chuck Klein
SP Grover Cleveland Alexander
SP Robin Roberts
SP Steve Carlton
SP Cole Hamels
RP Jim Konstanty
RP Tug McGrow
DH Ryan Howard (I know, no DH but this is for fun)
Bench (based on next-best players not actual bench play or versatility)
Boone at catcher…….I liked him, but arguably Daulton, Chooch and Lieberthal were in his class…..offensively and defensively.
That would be a hard choice…then there were Stan Lopata and Andy Seminick who were pretty darn good also.
Daulton and lieberthal certainly are good names. I went with Boone in part because of his contribution to the first World Series championship.
Can understand that for sure.
Thank you for mentioning the oft-overlooked Jim Konstanty. And for getting Grover Cleveland Alexander’s name “correct”. I had no idea who Pete Alexander was. Only figured it out when I saw his years and stats.
I’m glad these scenarios for how baseball can still be played this year are going on… Americans need some good news and normalcy and baseball provides that in spades.. Of course we have to mitigate the risks and provide as safe an atmosphere as possible but that doesn’t mean we can mitigate all risks.Not possible under any environment.. For 2020 we just have to face that baseball will be different yet the same… Still 60 ft. 6 in. to home plate. 90 feet between the base paths. Nine players on the field for opposing sides. I’m confident if we miss baseball this badly in April imagine it in June or July? MLB/MLBPA do what you need to do and let’s go..
As much as you like to think that the decision to reopen baseball will come down to the commissioner and MLBPA, the government is going to get involved somehow if they’re not happy about it.
Case in point, the UFC. They were planning to hold UFC 249 on April 18th on Tribal land in California. Even though California wasn’t going to sanction the event, the PPV was going to go on. One Netherlands broadcaster was refusing to broadcast the event due to ethical grounds. It took the California Governor to make a call to upper management to Disney, who then called the UFC (ESPN is the main broadcast partner) and voiced their concerns. That’s when the UFC postponed all upcoming events.
I agree no MLB baseball would precede government (federal or state) authorizations for businesses to open back up but from almost every T.V. newscast one watches it looks like May is the month for re-opening which would dovetail with the MLB in June..
LET’S CALL THE POLL “2020 HINDSIGHT”
Having been born in 1963, it would be a stretch for me to consider players who played prior to 1950, and those in the 50’s and 60’s based primarily on past reputation/legend. Plus, the dead ball era before the 30’s when the bats came alive skew comparisons made to those players of the modern era.
Another consideration I would offer is a player’s fan appeal. Just as the Phillies of the late 70’s became perennial division contenders, I fondly remember favorite role players of mine in the years just prior such as Jay Johnstone, Ollie “Downtown” Brown and Bobby “BT Express” Tolan coming off the bench and regularly popping one out of Vet Stadium. Of course they wouldn’t be seriously considered in poling for the best all time outfielders but they merit sentimental mention. And all time greats like Jim Thome and Pete Rose played their prime years in other uniforms. So I would remove them from consideration….but that’s me.
Therefore, here’s my subjective top 5 ranking of each position in Phillies history going back to 1950, with a personal favorite* sprinkled here and there.
C BOB BOONE
2 Darren Daulton
3 Andy Seminick
4 Carlos Ruiz
5 Bo Diaz*
1B RYAN HOWARD
2 John Kruk
3 Pete Rose
4 Jim Thome
5 Richie Hebner*/Willie Montanez
2B CHASE UTLEY
2 Juan Samuel
3 Manny Trillo
4 Tony Taylor
5 Dave “Action Dog” Cash*
SS JIMMY ROLLINS
2 Larry Bowa
3 Granny Hamner
4 Bobby Wine
5 Kevin Stocker
3B MIKE SCHMIDT
2 Richie Allen
3 Scott Rolen
4 Charlie Hayes
5 Willie “Pudd’nhead” Jones
LF GREG LUZINSKI
2 Gary “Sarge” Mathews
3 Pat Burrell
4 Dick Sisler
5 Raul Ibanez*
CF RICHIE ASHBURN
2 Garry Maddox
3 Lenny Dykstra
4 Shane Victorino
5 Bob Dernier*
RF BOBBY ABREU
2 Johnny Callison
3 Jayson Werth
4 Bake McBride
5 Del Ennis/Von Hayes
LHP STEVE CARLTON
2 Cliff Lee*
3 Cole Hamels
4 Curt Simmons
5 Randy Wolf/Terry Mulholland
RHP ROBIN ROBERTS
2 Curt Schilling
3 Roy Halladay
4 Jim Bunning
5 Chris Short/Rick Wise
RP – JIM KONSTANTY
2 Tug McGraw
3 Steve Bedrosian
4 Jose Mesa
5 Brad Lidge
MGR DALLAS GREEN
2 Charlie Manuel
3 Gene Mauch
4 Jim Fregosi
5 Eddie Sawyer
great list, but wasn’t Short a lefty?
Good lists. FYI – Chris Short was a lefty. Also Jim Konstanty actually only had one good season, in 1950. It was very good but there were other good relievers over the years. Al Holland comes to mind, Gene Garber, Ron Reed, Larry Anderson.
Trivia question – which two players were on both the 1983 and 1993 teams???
Thx for the correction on Short…in fact, I was about to make Gentleman Jim Lonborg my #5, but remembered Rick Wise’s decent years. Dick Ruthven was another RHP I considered as well.
One was LA….I think I heard him may have brought it up one time or another on a broadcast, not sure..
Correct! Daulton was the other, as a late season call up in 83
Oh yeah Dutch.
I see it….4 PAs.
Man, minor things aside (you could arrange first base in a number of different ways that would all be defensible), that’s one hell of a list. I found myself agreeing with you again and again. FYI – left field is there for the taking. It probably won’t happen because very few great hitters start off as left fielders – it’s usually guys at the end of their careers.
Alec Bohm could wind up being the #1 left fielder when it’s all said and done.
Supposedly the ban on public events to June 30 for the city of Toronto does not apply to sports teams. So the Maple Leafs and Blue Jays should be in the clear, but again, I doubt it will happen.
For the NHL fans out there, the province of Quebec has explicitly banned cultural and sporting events until Aug. 31. So if the NHL do come back soon, the Canadiens will need a new place to play.
8mark…very impressive list but a couple of changes I would consider. Tony Gonzalez certainly had a longer and more productive career as a Phillie than did Bobby Dernier and should replace him in CF. Gonzalez hit over .300 three times, was a solid defensive CFer on those impressive 1962-66 Phillie teams and then hit .339 in 1967. Dernier wasn’t even a regular with the Phils.
Also, I am not sure Bobby Wine was even the best shortstop on his own team, he alternated with Ruben Amaro and many Phillie phans from that ’60’s era would probably choose Amaro. They were both outstanding defensively but Amaro was the better hitter.
Konstanty had one great year but Tug McGraw was the greatest reliever in Phillie history and Gene Garber probably belongs on the list.
Still, impressive list and I appreciate you giving Gene Mauch some well deserved recognition. Mauch was a brilliant manager, actually was the guy who brought the Phils into the 20th Century with integration [Richie Allen, Wes Covington, Grant Jackson, Ruben Amaro, Cookie Rojas, Tony Curry, Tony Gonzalez to name a few] and should have his name on the Phillies Wall of Fame. Yes, he overmanaged during that terrible 10 game losing streak but his brilliance in actually getting the Phils into that position during the first 150 games has largely been forgotten. Most scouts viewed that Phillie team as a 4th place club and yet Mauch had them in first place for almost the entire season.
I recall going to a game in San Francisco on July 4, 1964 and looking out on the field. For the Giants, there was Willie Mays, Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, Juan Marichal, Gaylord Perry, Duke Snider, Jack Sanford, Billy Pierce and the Alou brotherss, Matty and Jesus.
For the Phils I saw John Herrnstein, Rick Wise, John Boozer, Johnny Briggs, Danny Cater, Bobby Wine, Cookie Rojas and Gus Triandos. Yes, there was Jim Bunning, Johnny Callison, Chris Short and a great rookie in Richie Allen. But talent wise comparison….please!
Yet, the Phils won that day 5-2 behind Bunning and as my dad was driving me home I was contemplating the fact that with the win the Phils had climbed into first place by half a game over the vaunted Giants. Had the Phils won in 1964 and the Angels won in either ’82 or 86, Mauch would be in the Hall of Fame.
Giants had also one of my favorite players, as an opponent, on that 60s team.
Always wishing the Phillies would trade for him….Jim Ray Hart.
Cal Dreamin’ – you got one of my all time great relief pitchers in Gino Garner I was depressed for years after they traded him for Rufus. He was a perennial fireman of the year candidate for years ! And with the Braves too !!! He was terrific.
Gino Garber !
I remember Pete Rose got mad with Gene Garber (when he was with the Braves) when Garber leaped off the mound once he ended Rose’s 44 game hitting streak.
Hinkie you are great ! I knew there was a Rose connection for Gino and there it was ! Thank you !!!!
Forbes ranks Phillies 8th….just ahead of the Angels.
“The New York Yankees take the No. 1 spot—which they have held since our first ranking in 1998—with a valuation of $5 billion, a 9% rise from a year ago. The Los Angeles Dodgers come in at No. 2 with a valuation of $3.4 billion, followed by the Boston Red Sox ($3.3 billion), the Cubs and the San Francisco Giants ($3.1 billion)…..”
St Louis Cardinals: 7th most valuable franchise in MLB, and still collecting competitive balance draft picks. Biggest joke in all of sports.
Hinkie….exactly….franchise worth over $2B…..why doesn’t the commissioner do something about that travesty of a program….if it is a small market team….then give them a few dollars more in dollar slot money….not draft picks
Absolutely – why on earth is baseball helping THEM? It boggles the mind.
If Mauch had pitched Ray Culp it might have been different. Dennis Bennett was injured, I don’t remember what happened to Mahaffey down the stretch and he refused to pitch Culp. That was agony that stretch. I was 10, couldn’t play in the Little League All Star game because I got the chicken pox, then watched my team go down in the flames. What a summer!
Anybody remember APBA? It was a board-card-dice baseball game before computers. Downtown Ollie Brown was a favorite on one of my APBA teams.
Curt Simmons is another memory. The first Major League player I ever met. Our sixth grade teacher was a friend and invited Curt to meet our class. Just several feet from greatness.
Gene Mauch vs. Dallas Green. Gotta love Dallas Green. Personal story: My wife and her two older sisters lived in Green’s neighborhood when they were kids. He was a delivery boy for the local grocery store. Her older sisters used to order delivery from the store just to talk with the handsome young hunk.
Having said that, I really liked Mauch though I’ll give the nod to Green. Mauch seemed to like the hustling little underdog more than winning, in a sense
Tony Taylor. Was he the greatest gentleman of all time, or what? And he’s still around.
Frank … I don’t remember APBA. I do remember All-Star Baseball. It was my favorite board game as a kid.
Hinkie, Thanks. APBA was almost like fantasy baseball in that adults played it forming leagues, drafting players, etc. Although dice were thrown to get outcomes, the games were very real and based on the actual statistics of players. It allowed for strategy, like playing infields in or back, to hit-and-run, bunt, etc.
yes my brother and I, and a few friends played it during the mid-60’s. Realistic and games took about 40 minutes as I recall,
It was a good game but it wasn’t as good as Steat-O-Matic. My brother and I bought Strat after the 1964 season and proceeded to play it every day during baseball season for many years. Bought six new teams every year for many years. Then bought the old timers teams of great older teams. All the player cards had player stats at the bottom and it was how I learned about the baseball players. We even took it to spring training about 10 years ago to play as a symbolic gesture. Many memories exist even after my brother is gone… I taught my son to play also and he loved it as well. Generational game.
Can’t speak to APBA or any other simulated game products out there. I too was a Strat only kid into my young adult years. It was so accessible to me, and realistic enough to enjoy the turnout of each game. And yes, it helped us young guys about the strengths and weaknesses of players, especially ones I wasn’t too familiar with, like AL players. Good friend of mine picked up the knack from me and taught his boy how to play. Great way to orient the youth of today to the game of baseball, be it the old hard copy version or today’s cyber edition, which quite frankly would lose me. Give me the cards, dice and a gameboard, pencil and box score sheet. Heaven!
Curt Simmons. native of Coplay PA, still has a Little league complex named after him in Coplay. As a kid, I remember after we traded him to the Cardinals he came back on a rehab to pitch at Braden Field in Allentown. Place was mobbed. Recall how in 1950 he missed World Series because he was on National Guard Duty, I think that was a big reason why Konstanty got the start. In 1953 he also cut off part of his foot in a lawn mower accident.
Did not realize it, but Phillies owner/GM Bob Carpenter signed him right out of Whitehall HS for $65K…largest at the time…after an exhibition game between the Phillies club and the local high school all-star players up in Lehigh County….Simmons struck out 11 Phillies, this as a senior in HS
Then went to Wilmington and pitched another 147 innings then Phillies called him up in Sept and tacked on another 9 innings giving up only one run in the win.
I wonder what kind of stuff he had……he finished with a 43WAR career.
I’m hoping this week the MLB gives us a status update. Your starting to see governors give projections on opening their states back up for business in early May with safety protocols that can be applied for crowds and I believe the MLB is watching..
There will be no baseball
….until Memorial Day.
A couple hundred million dollars a month in MLB losses makes me think there will be.. Plus the money for players runs out at the end of May.. Those two factors are strong motivators to get it down..
Even if it cost lives ,WOW
You can mitigate risk but never eradicate it. Statistics say we have a 1 in 77 chance of being in an auto accident every time we drive but there’s no rule against MLB players From driving. We don’t live our lives that way. Plus as suspected post-Easter less briefings you had the President and state Governors start to discuss plans for re-opening the country, regions and states. It’s obvious where possible May 1st is the date. Baseball will be played in 2020. Just not what we’re used to seeing in years past.
Fricking stop it already! You were already warned by Jim.
Stop posting about baseball re-opening? Everyone is interested in the possibility. Nothing political about my comment… I respect everyone’s opinion. Please point out why the topic of baseball re-opening is off limits?
Thank you Mr President. Hopefully your briefings and your presence on this site get banned.
If Hawkeye (or anyone) should be banned, it should be because he (or anyone) comments on something Jim deems inappropriate for this site, NOT because he poses an opinion which differs from yours. That’s censorship. That’s un-American.
ESPN’s Jeff Passan thinks that that if MLB wants to play baseball, it will only be in Arizona. Else, there won’t be any baseball in 2020.
Looks like others want to offer other suggestions….in this case California with their 19 minor league ball parks and ‘cooler’ weather in July and August than Arizona..
California’s Governor is suppose to outline his plan and projection for re-opening the state tomorrow.
I agree once again with Moffo. As much as I miss baseball, life is more valuable.
I want baseball this year, I will miss it a lot, I will miss the dinners at Popi with Romus, The fun we have at the bar, but maybe they figure out a way to play without fans and we and Romus can watch from his Swimming pool in the summer
rocco….always make me laugh!
Think about records for a “shortened” season. One that may be highlighted, but will have and asterik next to it, will be hitting .400. If we only have 100 games, we might see the next .400 hitter.
Eveything would have an asterisk. Think about this, the WS champion would not be able to have a parade because of social distancing!
The state of Florida has deemed the WWE an essential service so they will able to hold shows without an audience. So if MLB wants to have games in Florida, there is some precedent to make it happen.
Phillies and Yankees in the same division would be something to watch,
a Cole vs Nola or Wheeler match-up ..wow.
It only cost them an $18M donation to Trump in Florida
1980 bs 2008 in Strat-O-Matic. Who you got?
Love 2008 but they really didn’t have enough pitching. I think 1980 wins.
For reference The Couple who own WWE run a large Pac for President and Governor of Florida answers to Pres
As Jim as pointed out on numerous occasions over the years to many different posters….the subject of religion and/or political discussion should be avoided.
Looks like the PGA is saying they will be back in mid-May. Wonder if baseball isn’t too far behind them.
It’s a healthy sign…
Joel Reuter analyzed every Mlb team’s 1st Round picks and ranked the teams by how often they hit on their selection.
Spoiler alert… Dodgers, Braves, Yankees are not near top but rather all in bottom half.
That’s an interesting…and rather enlightening piece. And with Nola, Bohm and Stott, the Phillies could be ranked even higher than #13 in a few years time.
One issue is that obviously if you have a higher pick, you will have more probability of hitting on that pick AND generating meaningful WAR. Case in point, the Seattle Mariners. The Mariners hit on a boatload of top 10 picks (including Griffey Jr. and Rod). So It’s no surprise that some good teams are not hitting on 1st round picks because they are picking later. When the Phillies were winning the East and picking in the 20s, we got nothing from that.
Speaking of Strat-O-Matic, beginning today they will run a computer simulation of a series between the ’80 and ’08 Phillies. Oughtta be lots of fun. NBCSP will post the results each day. My money is on the 1980 squad because I think they were a more complete roster, especially pitching wise. Although in real life, the ’08 team might win it because of intangibles…ie the Rollins/Utley swagger.
No one could touch Steve Carlton that year….10WAR season…..forget-about-it….’80 with him were a better team….4-0 in the playoffs vs Houston and the Royals…he may have walked a few more than usual but when it counted he took care of business.
rocco would agree with me.:)
Philly Voice is ranking the Top 50 Players on Philadelphia Teams At This Very Minute.
Their rankings are based solely on what they’ve done in their most recent season and what you expect them to do in their next season; hence, the “at this very minute”. The one caveat is the athlete has had to have played in at least one professional major league game (Spencer Howard and Alec Bohm don’t qualify). They started yesterday, and have already ranked players 50 through 30. Three Phillies have landed in that range (Zach Eflin @ 43, Scott Kingery @ 42, and Didi Gregorius @ 35).
I put together my top 20. I excluded Union players because I have no clue when it comes to soccer. If you have time, post your own list.
1. Joel Embiid
2. Carson Wentz
3. Bryce Harper
4. Travis Konecny
5. JT Realmuto
6. Cluade Giroux
7. Ben Simmons
8. Carter Hart
9. Aaron Nola
10. Zack Wheeler
11. Lane Johnson
12. Ivan Provorov
13. Fletcher Cox
14. Zach Ertz
15. Sean Couturier
16. Tobias Harris
17. Brandon Brooks
18. Darius Slay
19. Jason Kelce
20. Brandon Graham
Hinkie, that’s a fun exercise, especially with the current lockdown….but how exactly does one quantify the value/talent of a baseball player vs a football player vs a basketball player vs a hockey player?
Miles Sanders belongs on this list IMO. Give Carter Hart a very big up arrow. Agree on 1 and 2 – after that it’s the judgment calls are not easy to make.
Jeff Passan has some insight into what MLB will look like when/if the game returns this season.
BA has a mock draft today and Phils take Cade Cavalli…..
Have to like the scouting report from one source……..”Cade Cavalli produces some of the easiest velocity in his Draft class, working at 92-96 mph and topping out at 98″ and with his size (6’4″, 225/230 lbs) he looks like he has the strength to keep the velo up there for awhile
Cade Cavalli would be an excellent pick for the Phillies if he’s still available at 1-15. I don’t have a BA subscription. Were Max Meyer and Reid Detmers picked before 1-15? Where did they have Garret Crochet, and did they have Cole Henry in the first round? TIA.
What a crazy draft it will be this year.. Beyond the college locks it’s up in the air… HS players not taken in the 1st-2nd round will likely go to college and come out in three years. Coming out next year via the JC route doesn’t seem any better… Crazy
Meyer 7th round by Pirates, Detmer 10th round by Halos
Thank you, Frank.
Frank…7th and 10th rounds…I just assume you meant picks,not rounds.
Romus, yes. Picks. Shelter-at-home fogged mind.
In honor of BA mocking Cade Cavalli to the Phillies yesterday (even though I’m not too optimistic he’ll make it to 1-15), I put together a Phillies only mock 3.0.
ROUND 1: Cade Cavalli RHP Oklahoma … looks like a future workhorse #2 or #3 SP in MLB. The 6’4″, 226 lb hurler was selected by the Braves out of HS in 2017. Cavalli chose Oklahoma over Atlanta. In three seasons as a Sooner, Cavalli has totaled 101.1 IP, 96 H, 53 BB, 114 K. He’s also belted 10 HR’s as a DH.
Here’s a scouting report from ESPN’s Kiley McDaniel: “One scout described his delivery as “clean as a whistle,” and he’s an athletic, durable 6-foot-4 righty who works with a 94-98 mph fastball he complements with a 65-grade curveball and starter traits. But the command isn’t as good as the delivery and athleticism indicate, akin to Sean Newcomb.”
ROUND 2: This pick was forfeited for signing Zack Wheeler. Can’t wait to watch him throw for the Phils …… someday.
ROUND 3: Chris Lanzilli OF/3B/1B Wake Forest … has been one of the premier sluggers in college baseball the last couple of seasons. The 6’2″, 220 lbs Massachusetts native slashed .347/.409/.620 with 16 HR’s in 2019. This season, he was at .299/.377/.642, and had launched 6 dingers in just 67 AB’s when COVID-19 shut things down. Lanzilli was drafted by the SFG’s in the 39th round last June as an eligible sophomore, but returned to school for his junior year.
ROUND 4: Levi Prater LHP Oklahoma … plays second fiddle to Cade Cavalli at the University of Oklahoma, but is a top prospect, himself. The 6’1″, 190 lb Sooner doesn’t have Cavalli’s pure “stuff”. He features a 89-91 MPH FB (with some run to his arm side), an above avg SL and CH. He moves all three pitches around the strike zone, and does a very good job of working the corners. Prater has registered 154.1 IP, 109 H, 81 BB, 194 K in three years at Oklahoma. He also was one of the top performing arms on the Cape last summer (19.2 IP, 9 H, 8 BB, 21 K).
ROUND 5: Dante Girardi MIF Calvary Christian Academy HS … is a kid very familiar to the Phillies not only because his father manages the team, but because he plays his HS ball in Clearwater at Calvary Christian Academy (where Roy Halladay was a volunteer coach). Dante plays both SS and 2B and has a commitment to play college ball at Florida International.
From Mike Trout on playing all games in Arizona:
“We want to get back as soon as we can, but obviously it’s got to be realistic. It can’t be sitting in our hotel rooms, just going from the field to the hotel room and not being able to do anything. I think that’s pretty crazy.”
Unfortunately that is what we all are doing in some form, way or another ….grocery shopping/drug stores or working at the home for employment or house maintenance and/or chores….maybe a trip to a Home Depot/Loews and wait your turn to get in.
There are no movies, restaurants, theme parks, et al to go to.
FINAL – GAME 1
1980 PHILLIES 2
2008 PHILLIES 4
Cole Hamels not only outdueled Lefty who had command issues, but he also doubled 2x off him…Schmidt (solo HR, double) and Utley (2run shot) were offensive stars. Lidge got the save.
Lefty won 28 games that year…24 in the regular season plus 4-0 In the playoffs….10WAR pitcher.
Cole won 18….14 wins regular season….4-1 in the playoffs..4WAR pitcher
Seriously…the computer model they must have used must be the one Washington University is using.
If they’re using the advanced playing cards/stats of their respective seasons, and they faced each other, say 10 times, I’m pretty sure Carlton would win the majority of games. Just like real life.
Ok…..I thought this was a computer generated production
There is no doubt that Carlton was the better pitcher, but that postseason, Hamels was about as good as it gets and was fully the match for Carlton. Originally, I favored the 1980 team, but when I looked a little more closely at team stats, I felt the 2008 team was slightly better because their hitting was clearly better and their relief corps was amazing. By the time they hit September, games were over if the Phillies were ahead after 5 innings. You can’t overstate the importance of that fact. So. personally, I think the 2008 team would win in 7 games.
Since the playoffs are a small sampling to evaluate a true comparison, the regular season would be the more valid interpretation of true outcome between the two years.
Take your pick:…practically dead even
Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer concerts and sporting events will not be allowed in the city until 2021.
This is going to get interesting because it now impacts NFL and college football.
Already, Santa Clara County’s Executive Officer, Jeff Smith, has warned to not expect to see San Francisco 49ers or San Jose Sharks games before the late fall.
“Sorry to say, I don’t expect that we’ll have any sports games until at least Thanksgiving, and we’ll be lucky to have them by Thanksgiving,” Smith said at a recent Board of Supervisors meeting. “This is not going to be something that is easy to do.”
I would be curious if he thinks fan-less games could happen?
Dr. Fauci, yesterday, mentioned the possibility of baseball games w/o fans in the stands this summer.
GAME 2 FINAL
’80 Phillies 11
’08 Phillies 0
Bob Walk shut down the ’08 lineup with a 2 hit, 9 K complete game shutout. McBride and Trillo collected 5 of the ’80 squad’s 15 hits. Brett Myers got lit up, unable to survive the 3rd inning. Series tied 1-1
8mark…don’t hold your breath…I will save you some time…’80 edges ’08 in seven..
The most recent report about the tragic death of Roy Halliday is contradictory to his baseball image. A man who had the mental toughness, after being demoted to the minor leagues, and to come back spectacularly and work so very hard at his trade. i believe there were stories how he even sought help with positive thinking and mental toughness in sports. With very high levels of amphetamine, morphine, muscle relaxer, pain meds and anti depressants in his blood stream while doing aerial stunts in his plane suggests he was really hurting physically and mentally during retirement. All deaths prematurely like Halliday’s are tragic but the details of his death are startling and incongruent with his baseball make up. I wish his family the very best.
Guys, I am a huge Roy Halladay fan, always have been. This shows that they are human, subject to the same demons and issues that all of us may face, and the money and fame don’t make them go away. I feel awful for his family. In a weird way, it makes me think of Odubel Herrera. I despise domestic violence and without being there and without knowing what actually happened, I am ready to see him go away, just happy if he was gone. I still don’t know what occurred and probably won’t ever, but I feel badly about not wanting to hear him out or give him another chance. I automatically assumed he did something I believe needs to be punished snd washed my hands if him. I am not looking for him to play for the team again, I just I wrote off another human being without much care. The 2 people and circumstances are completely different, it just made me think. Maybe I have been stuck at home too long!
Weren’t the 2008 Phillies god-awful with RISP during the 2008 WS?
Correct…in 5 games….10 for 60….they were fortunate in some respects.
Yes and maybe.
Game 1: 0-13 in a 3-2 W
Game 2: 1-15 (1-28) in a 4-2 L
Game 3: 1-5 (inf 1B w/bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th) in a 5-4 W
Game 4: 4-14 in a 10-2 W
Game 5: 4-13 in the 4-3 clincher
They were 1-32 before the Game 3 game-winning “hit”, and 10-60 overall (.166). But 8-27 in Games 4 and 5 (.296).
Good thing they were playing the inexperienced Rays at a place like the Trop and not the Red Sox in Fenway….it may have been a different outcome.
wow I had no clue ,they, were that bad
rocco…yeah, Phillies were putting guys on base in those first two games…10 walks total…but really they were their worst and that skewed the end results for the series.
The Rays , on the other hand, were a combined 7 for 26…269 BA..for the series,…but had a lot less runners in scoring positions.
Looks like if there is baseball to be played without fans, MLB might ask MLBPA for a reduction in salaries to compensate for the loss of ticket sales and concessions. This is going to get dicey.
Yeah, that’ll go over with the players union like a lead balloon. And it won’t further advance movement in CBA talks, either. Contractually, is it stipulated that games must be played before a crowd. If not, the players would have a case, and the owners wouldn’t be motivated to open any type of season. Yes, real dicey.
Those players, who are American citizens, received their $1200 ‘stimulus’ direct deposit check yesterday…why should they complain about playing for less salary! 🙂
Only if they make under $150K per year.
Oh yes….so no MLB player received any stimulus since their minimum wage is high than %150K….or wonder if that also applied to those on the 40 who did not have any MLB service time yet?
The NBA is going to start withholding player pay in anticipation of missed regular season games. So it’s only a matter of time for MLB to do the same.
The ASG in L.A. has been cancelled. It’s apparent if/when the MLB comes back they’ll use every day possible for games… My question goes to the MiLB. That season is looking decidedly grim. The MLB teams will need some minor leaguers for the all but certain injuries so do they keep a mix of high level players at their respective ST sites playing intra-squad games and training? I realize this means more quarantines and testing but as a condition of the MLB season opening wouldn’t you think some accommodation for reserves would have to be made? As the summer progresses and we move through the stages of opening might a Futures Game be possible? Also I was thinking what about the AZ Fall League? If there was ever a year based on the need for up and coming minor league players to get extra innings this is the year.
I guess we try to get the MLB going first then deal with the rest..
I’m guessing there will be a slight increase to the roster to account for depth, to say 30 players. The MLBPA will be happy because more players will be making minimum salary. Then there would have to be some players close by for injuries. Now where those extra players will be housed will be another issue. If the Philies have extra players at the Clearwater complex, it won’t be easy to get them to Philadelphia in a short period of time.
Game 3 FINAL
2008 Phillies 2
1980 Phillies 6
’80 Phils up 2-1 in series.
The Bull (3 rbi) cracked a 2 run HR, and Larry Bowa collected 3 hits and stole 3 bases. Dick Ruthven got the W with a support from a 15 hit attack. Chase Utley is the only one who seems to be on any track with 2 hits, driving in the ’08ers only 2 runs.
Interesting. The teams were very close in talent for sure. There’s no doubt that, in a 7 game series, either team could win. The questions is how many times each team would win if you ran the simulation 100 times. I think it would still be pretty close.
Yeah, I think it’s likely there would only be a 5-10 game difference. Say, 54-46, one way or the other. ’80 had the pitching edge. Hamels was a post season beast BUT this simulation is based on the entire regular season, not the playoffs. The ’08 squad had the more productive lineup, statistically…BUT this type of matchup is way more about just that – matchups, NOT whose numbers were more impressive (even WAR) in two very different eras.
I knew April 17th rang a bell….44 years ago today in 1976, the Phillies were down to the Cubs at Wrigley Field, 13-2. With some constructive advice from teammates Dick Allen and Tony Taylor, Mike Schmidt belted 4 home runs to lead the charge as the Phillies came back to win 18-16.
I saw Baseball America had a very nice article with a scout review of Spencer Howard which included video I believe from 2019. Showed him pitching for Clearwater and Reading…His FB has such fantastic late movement..
Lets just hope his Dad is catching bullpens for him in their backyard …with extra padding in the mitt! 🙂
Matt Stairs cranks a pinch hit grand salami off Tugger in top of the 9th to win it for the ’08 team, 7-5. Series now tied 2-2.
That is classic! You can’t make that stuff up! On second thought . . . .
1980 club takes a 3 game to 2 lead with a 5-2 win over Hamels and the ’08 Phils. Rose hit a 3 run double, Schmidt continued to pound the ball and in the most interesting fact of the game, Larry Christenson hurled a 3 hit complete game.
Why was that so interesting? Because in 1980 Christenson had elbow issues, only started 14 games and didn’t toss even one complete game. Steve Carlton goes the clincher today.
Just a personal opinion here but in my mind the 1980 team was better than the 2008 team [deeper rotation, more star players] but NEITHER of these teams was the best of their era. I still think the 1977 Phillie team was the greatest team in franchise history and I think the 2009 Phillies team was better than the ’08 club. The ’80 and ’08 team were quite fortunate in their playoff foes, Astros and Royals were probably not as good as the Dodgers or Yankees and the ’08 club got the Dodgers and Rays instead of the Cardinals and Red Sox.
Going strictly by WAR….the 2011 regular season team was probably the best in their history with 102 wins.
Naw…that 2011 team was dominant because of its starting rotation but after losing Werth they were a bit offensively challenged. And Howard was already on the downward sloop of his career [which would be exacerbated greatly by his injury to end the season.
That ’77 team had Schmidt and Luzinski at arguably their mid 20’s zenith, so many outfielders that solid hitting Jay Johnstone was their 4th outfielder, not one [Bob Boone], not two [Tim McCarver] but three [Barry Foote] very capable catchers, a double play combo of Larry Bowa and Ted Sizemore that was scrappy and effective, an incredibly productive first base platoon of Richie Hebner and Davy Johnson, Bake McBride at his dynamic best and the Secretary of the Defense, Garry Maddox patrolling CF. Oh, not to mention a really deep bench including Tommy Hutton, Ollie Brown, Jerry Martin and Terry Harmon. Deepest 16 man roster the Phils have ever had.
And while I will acknowledge that Halladay and Lee were great in 2011 they were no greater than Steve Carlton and Larry Christenson, who between them won 42 games. Jim Lonborg didn’t pitch till late May but still won 11 games. Randy Lerch had a very good rookie season and veteran Jim Kaat added stability to a 5 man rotation. In fact, this 5 man rotation was so solid that the ’77 team only employed 4 relievers. And oh what a bullpen that was.
And the bullpen? Gene Garber was amazing, Ron Reed solid, Tug McGraw was typical Tug and rookie Warren Brusstar was brilliant.
This team went 70-31 to finish the season AFTER acquiring McBride at the June 15 trading deadline. If Jerry Martin is put into LF to start the 9th inning of Game 3 [Black Friday] the Phils win the game, probably win the ’77 NL playoffs [next two games were at home where the Phils were 60-21 that season] and go on to meet the Yankees.
I realize that many Phillie phans weren’t around to root for that ’77 team but if they were they recall how powerful that team was. The series I remember the most was a mid August 4 game series in Chicago against the Cubs. The Cubs had led the NL for most of the season and when the Phils came to Wrigley Field for this huge series, Cub fans were ready.
When the Phils left town 4 games later the lead was now 7 games and the Cubs were done. The scores? 10-3, 10-7, 10-2 and 4-2. All Phillie wins and Schmidt and Luzinski put on a power display that was a sight to behold. By the way, the winning wouldn’t stop till the team had won 13 straight games.
The 1977 team may have been better than the 2011 team but there is no way the 1977 teams gets anywhere close to the 2011 team. Christenson had a 0.4 WAR that year (he won a lot of games because they hit a ton for him. Carlton’s WAR was 5.9. On the 2012 team Halladay had 8.8 WAR, Lee had 8.5 WAR and Hamels had 6.4 WAR. That was the best Phillies pitching rotation in modern history and nothing is close.
I meant to say there is no way the 1977 rotation was better.
I think you mean the 2011 pitching staff with a combined 36.5WAR….that may have been the best pitching in their history.
2012…rotation and entire pitching staff had a collective 12WAR season in an 81 win season and the beginning of this long drought..
Yes I do – I hate typing from my IPhone.
I remember that team well and to tell you the truth, both the ’76 and ’77 teams were dominant…with the ’76 posting a 48.2WAR.
That ’76 team featured beside Lefty, Jim Kaat, Jim Lonborg and Ron Reed ….all aging near the end of their careers… but still very good pitchers in their last hurrah.
It’s fun to compare and contrast two outstanding rosters – 1977 and 2011 (although I agree with those who hold the 2009 team in greater esteem). However, one factor is that skews the debate is that there were only 24 major league teams in 1977, compared to 30 since the late ’90s, which we all must admit has watered down the competition throughout MLB. Man for man, the ’77 team was deeper. The ’09 team had bigger impact players, while the ’11 starting rotation was as elite as the franchise has had in the modern era. The championship teams of ’80 and ’08 enjoyed good health and timely hitting and pitching performances and rose to the opportunity when it mattered most.
I would add that while 1993’s Macho Row was a rare case of catching lightning in a bottle, and unsustainable for the long run, that season’s roster was pieced together to perfection, even if it wasn’t by design. Truly throwbacks to the very early 20th century style of muck and grinders, charming yet despicable. Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb would have fit right in with that cast of characters.
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