68 thoughts on “Box Score Recap – 9/1/2016”

1. How do you explain a smart, talented hitter like JP Crawford hitting .230, and a Nick Williams going 0-4 with three strikeouts every night and drawing one walk since the All-Star Break? To me they are better than that, and I put the blame squarely on the manager. When there is smoke, such as the constant benching of Williams this summer, there is usually fire. The team as a whole has underperformed, and it has stunted the Phillies rebuild. Hopefully, Brundage won’t be asked back next season.

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   1. If you’re going to make the statement “The team as a whole has underperformed”, I think you have to cite examples. A lot of the players are AAAA guys, and our expectations are far lower than those we have for Crawford and Williams.

      This “underperforming” team has posted its first winning record since 2012, and is on the verge of making the playoffs for the first time since 2011.

      And they have done this while providing players to the big club as needed, and receiving young players from AA.

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   2. Also not a fan of Brundage. Thought he masked his own shortcomings as a manager by focusing too brightly on perceived slights from Williams’ earlier in the year.

      However I don’t think that there’s any connection between poor play over the second half from our upper echelon prospects in LHV and his “managing” ability. These are simply young kids who will need to make adjustments to older, more experienced pitchers who are simply having there way with them at the moment.

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      1. My guess Dusty Wathan gets promoted to the LHV job next season or Mickey Morandini may try his hand at it.

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   3. How do I explain Crawfords and William’s struggles? Crawford a 21 year old shortstop. He was never an offensive powerhouse like Seager. Williams is 22 years old. This is both their first taste of AAA. I’m not surprised they are having issues. It took Franco awhile to figure out AAA.

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      1. Agreed on Crawford. It’s mostly growing pains – he should be fine.

         Williams’ issues are more fundamental. If you strikeout a lot and don’t walk much and don’t have an elite hit tool, it’s pretty likely you won’t have much success against major league pitchers. Williams needs to show a fundamental change in his approach to suggest he can succeed in the big leagues. Honestly, I don’t think many players can make that shift but certainly his age is a helpful mitigating factor.

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2. Amazing, Blaming the manager for nick Williams failure to hit and take a walk. Did you ever watch him play? I have and posted I am on the fence with him. Crawford will take a walk and is adjusting to the league at a younger age.

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3. Just happy to see player I follow intently – Juan Luis finishing strong from lead-off spot.

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4. Me thinks its time to start taking Tirado seriously…

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   1. No doubt. Leaping up my personal rankings

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   2. I stood up and took notice a couple of starts ago. I took back all the negative things I said about him and admitted he’s found himself.

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5. i was at the lakewood game last night. Tirado was hitting 95-100 on his fast balls!! he hit 100 once. but hit 97,98 a bunch of times

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   1. If either he or Jimmy Cordero turn out to be something, the Ben Revere deal will be considered a very good one. If BOTH make it, another feather in Ruben’s cap.

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      1. I’d already call it a good deal. Revere is below replacement level with the Nats this year. He was one of those guys you deal for low-level, high-risk, high-reward types, and in this case, it looks like Tirado is one of those rare cases that the “reward” part starts to look more tangible.

         That’s six consecutive starts where Tirado has struck out at least 8 batters (9,8,9,9.11 and 10). In those 6 starts, he has 11 BB, although more than half of those came in two games. He is definitely onto something out there.

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      2. 8mark……shhhhh, keep the Amaro compliments to a whisper. He was, after all, rated the worst GM in sports just a 15 months ago.

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         1. Romus, we’ll just call him Wade2.0 as his code name.

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            1. 8mark….you got it…Wade2.0 it is.

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      3. Lately the sentiment seems to support a lot of positive comments for Reuben I think he might be gathering enough feathers for a war bonnet. But, I do agree with you on the Revere deal.

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         1. Got to give RAJ credit for the “Papelbon for Pivetta” deal, as well.

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6. I had a Twitter exchange with a national pro scout last night regarding Tirado. Said 70/60 grades on FB/Slider. Said he only threw one change all game. So needs to develop that third pitch. But that FB/SL is an awesome arsenal.

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   1. He may be limited to a reliever role, but certainly of the high leverage variety. It’s easy to look at that 14.14 K/9 and dream bigger though.

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      1. Steve…he still can be the starter that he may want to be. Turns 22-years old in a few months, so there is still that glimmer.
         Amazingly, he, along with other Latin arms in A level ball, that are 6′ and under with plus FB in high velo ranges.

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         1. If he is a reliever with a 14 k/9 he is still extremely valuable. far more valuable than Ben Revere. Look at the packages that the Yankees just got for Miller and Chapman

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7. Great season for the farm. Almost all teams will make it to the playoffs.

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8. Glad to see Leibrandt going to AFL. He may be the most ignored player on the site. Always thought he was a Buchanon type prospect, but may be higher ceiling in the end.

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9. Tirado has flipped the switch!

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   1. Tirado’s FIP steadily progressing downward…..now 3.33…..with a few more quality starts could get to even a better grading.

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   2. BP Prospect of the Day:
      “Alberto Tirado, RHP, Phillies (Low-A Lakewood): 6 IP, H, 0 R/ER, BB, 10 K
      The last time I wrote this article Tirado dominated the opposition. He did it again this week with an even better line. The hits and walks are being given up at extremely low levels right now, signaling a developmental step for a truly electric young arm. Tirado could complete his development as a quintessential power pitcher with near triple-digit heat and bat-missing secondary stuff, and starts like this one (and the one I wrote about last week) are previews of what that projection could look like at the big-league level.”

      http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=30271

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      1. He is guaranteed to be protected this offseason. otherwise we would surely lose him.

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         1. I didn’t think we needed to protect his last season, but certainly do this season. He has the right profile of player you can stash as a low leverage reliever for a year. I think we would certainly lose him if unprotected

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10. Excited to see what a Kilome, Taveras, Tirado playoff rotation can do. That will be some major gear being thrown.

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    1. Heat

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11. Wonder if all of the noise around a promotion for Crawford has distracted him? Either way a .239 avg is not becoming of a #1 prospect. I’m with Rocco in the sense that Williams’ approach is so bad that everything is going to have to break right for him to have a productive MLB career. You can’t survive off of major league pitching walking 1 a week (if that) and expanding the zone in every single at bat.

    I agree that the managers attempt at discipline earlier in the year were laughable, but Williams’ hasn’t covered himself in roses with his performances either. Either the light is going to go off, or he’s going to be in for a really rude awakening.

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    1. Jp is fine imo. He has answered every challenge that has put ahead of him and jumped levels very quickly so far. Maybe, just maybe he is not ready yet? I think he is trying to tell us that. He is way ahead of the curve, and I do not see any cause for concern yet.

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    2. I wouldnt mind Williams repeating AAA to work on his plate discipline. You could even double jump Roman if need be. Dont have to though.

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12. It’s nice to have solid starting pitchers at the upper levels of the minors as a foundation, and electric arms at the lower levels to dream on. Kilome, Tirado, Medina, and Sixto are as exciting as can be. Add in guys like Gowdy and Falter who just need strength and experience and you get a STACKED minor league pitching staff.

    Add in our GCL outfield and you have an EXCITING lower level minor league system.

    GAH! – Tirado – I’m starting to believe in, and hope on, you.

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13. I don’t get the negative talk on Brundage . . . Outside of thecwilliam benching, what else don’t you like? I never understood the criticism . . . Any interview I saw th him after the benching was the opposite of what people were saying. He didn’t want to talk about it, he did answer a few questions but seemed to get annoyed when pressed on the issue. Didn’t seem like he wanted it played out in the media however some on here say the exact opposite. Another thing is Nick Williams has done things like this all year. Apparently he wasn’t benched util the 2nd or 3rd time he was spoken to about it. Heard that in an interview with the Lehigh Valley tv guys. But yeah, what is your issues with him other than Williams being benched?

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    1. Maybe, just maybe jp isn’t ready yet? This kid has answered every question can he struggle a little please. He has jumped levels very quickly and handled it all very well. Now at the highest minor league level he has struggled. That happens from time to time and I myself am not worried. I certainly would blame Dave brundage for it either

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14. I don’t know Nick Williams and I always took the benching as a learning experience for a young player. If he took it negatively, instead of an opportunity to kick it up a gear, then that is on him. My concern is that it is really improbable for a young talented hitter to have 1 BB since the AllStar game, and says to me that his approach is completely out of whack. I don’t know if he benefits from playing in the Winter or if he is better served taking time off and coming to ST in January refreshed.

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15. Daniel Stumpf is doing a really nice job for KC (2.29 ERA) in AA….where he belongs. Would’ve been nice if the Phils could’ve kept him. Do the Royals have to protect him again from the Rule 5 draft? I think he will be back in the majors again.

    Alec Hansen pitched a nice game last night against Lakewood, his second start at high A. I always thought he’d be a good second round pick (at slot) instead of Gowdy. He could be major league ready in a year and a half. Any thoughts?

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    1. Charlie, Both very good points. Well said.

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       1. I don’t like, nor have I ever blamed poor performance by a player on a coach or a manager. The players have to own their poor performance. It doesn’t matter who is sitting in the dugout when you are out on the field. In Williams’ case it is between him and pitcher. He has to overcome adversity, if there is even adversity. He getting benched has been overplayed as far as I’m concerned and has absolutely nothing to do with his poor performance in the last month.

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16. I’m worried about Williams. 132 Ks and 19 BB is very concerning. Does anyone have a comp for a successful MLB hitter who struck out 5x more than he walked over the course of his time in MiLB (as Willaims has)? Particularly one without overwhelming power?

    I tried to think of good comps among current players. Steven Souza is striking out 6x for every walk this year, but his ratio in the minors was only 2:1. The Upton brothers both have terrible ratios now, but there minor league numbers were much better. George Springer was 2:1 in the minors. Same with Drew Stubbs.

    Going back, there’s Wily Mo Pena — he had a 5:1 ratio in MLB (and a career WAR of -1.2). But even he was under 4:1 in MiLB. I guess the best case would be someone like Bill Hall — he struck out over 4x for every BB in MiLB — not as bad as Williams — and he did put up two really good years in MLB.

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    1. Williams has had almost the opposite season of what I hoped/expected. I thought he’d struggle for a while out of the gate similar to the way Franco did, but he more than held his own for the first half of the season. Obviously the second half has been a disaster and he’s now at 50 Ks to 1 BB since the All Star break.

       I would guess that he started to slump and, feeling that he should be pushing for a ML spot, began pressing as he tried to get out of it. Instead it’s only snowballed. I hope he comes back next year with a clear head and a renewed focus on swinging at the right pitches.

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       1. The first half of next season will be big for him. Pitchers are throwing him trash knowing hell swing at anything. Once he figures that out, hell get more pitches to hit.

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    2. WCP….I guess it goes back to what KLaw assessed him in April 2015…..’he is a prospect, just not a good one”

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       1. Romus, I hope he turns it around. The Cubs got Addison Russell for Samardzija. He is a flat out stud player. If Williams isn’t very good, that puts an enormous amount of pressure on Alfaro, or the Hamels trade doesn’t look that great, after all.

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          1. matt13…….that is what the Phillies are hoping also I am sure.
             IMO…the OFers that have red-flags hanging on them…Cozens and Williams.
             Cozens currently has the notoriety going for him with the HR/RBI records.
             But I would be willing to bet….if Klentak exposed them in trade talks….he would get very few bites from GMs.
             Every team’s analytical department can see that writing on the wall.
             Even the Rangers had GMs dragging their feet over concerns and issues when Gallo was temporarily put out there in July in return for pitching.

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             1. Romus with the season almost over. I will miss you m8, my sixers will be starting soon. I love basketball.

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                1. rocco……I hear thee….Simmons, Embiid and Saric makes for anticipation.

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          2. Agreed – I’ve been saying this for about a month – people were all upset suggestion I was being a downer, but I’m not very high on Williams as att right now. He’s more likely to be another Dom Brown than a solution in right. The Hamels trade is looking very tenuous right now. If Alfaro or Thomson becomes a star it’s fine – otherwise, it’s not so good.

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             1. Eickhoff alone doesn’t make it a good trade but he tends to be forgotten in that deal. Alfaro is the lynch pin. Thompson’s track record is to struggle early on then establish himself. Way way too early to cast doom and gloom over the Hamels trade.

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                1. 8mark……agree….it isn’t like we traded a 27-year old Hamels who will pitch for another 7/8 years at 5WAR per year.
                   Cole’s 2017 is his age33 season. The Phillies got 40plusWAR from him and the Rangers have already recd approx total of 8/9WAR after this year, and probably will get another 10WAR thru 2018 and maybe a WS before he reaches free agency in 2019.
                   If Williams is not what was expected, then it does hurt, but I still think Thompson could be a the real ‘deal’ from the deal.

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                2. 8mark,

                   Agreed. If Thompson and Eickoff end up in the rotation and Alfaro makes it — which I think he will — that’s a heck of a return for Hamels, especially when you consider Eichoff and Thompson could have a decade ahead of them and Hamels maybe three or four years if they all age about the same.

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             2. Catch I am used to people thinking I am a downer, cause I tell what I think of a player. Williams, we both said we were on the fence. I Think his problem right now, is thinking too much at the plate. only a guess, He just seems to be slow reacting to pitches from the times I have seen him.

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                1. rocco……when I look at his career MiLB K% and especially as it relates to his BB%, I really have some concerns. Then I rationalize a little, and look at his wRC+ and think…..well there is something there that is projectibility promising.
                   So he has some big question marks headed into the off-season.

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17. What’s up with blaming the manager for the troubles a player is having at the plate? 1 BB since the all-star break? How is that fault of the manager? But I guess that’s the world we live in today – let’s blame others and accept no responsibility. Williams has all the tools except for maybe the one that counts the most – the mental tool. The good news is he can fix that with more experience and reps. Of course that assumes he is not just playing for himself . My guess is he is in a major funk because he expected to be called up by now and it didn’t happen and instead of just focusing and playing the game, he’s thinking of other things completely out of his control.

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18. Tirado back on the Hot Sheet again … Alfaro makes it too

    8. Alberto Tirado, rhp, Phillies

    Team: low Class A Lakewood (South Atlantic)
    Age: 21
    Why He’s Here: 1-0, 0.00, 6 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 10 SO, 0 BB

    Wild out of the bullpen in his first full season with the Phillies after being acquired last summer in the Ben Revere deal with Toronto, Tirado has flipped the switch since moving into the Lakewood rotation. He whiffed 10 more on Thursday night, bringing his total to 83 strikeouts in 53.1 IP as a starter. (JN)

    15. Jorge Alfaro, c, Phillies

    Team: Double-A Reading (Eastern)
    Age: 23
    Why He’s Here: .455/.455/.818 (10-for-22), 7 R, 2 2B, 2 HR, 6 RBIs, 0 BB, 5 SO

    After a brief callup to Philadelphia while the Phillies waited for trade acquisition A.J. Ellis to arrive from Los Angeles, Alfaro is back in the Eastern League to help Reading make a run for the title. With Reading, Alfaro has shown all season why the Phillies pushed to acquire him in the Cole Hamels trade last summer. One of the most athletic catchers in the minors, he has cleaned up his receiving and blocking and retained his powerful throwing arm. He needs to polish his selectivity at the plate, but he’s hit for both power and average this season. (JN)

    Read more at http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/prospect-hot-sheet-sept-2-jonathan-holder-takes/#Pf7kwf2csLjDpH7L.99

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19. Jim (Berlin, NJ): Disappointing finish for J.P. Crawford and rumblings that attitude not a plus. Any reason for concern here?

    Kyle Glaser: The thing with Crawford is he was never going to be a power guy. But, excellent glove who can get on base has a lot of value. His offensive abilities got overblown after what he did in 2014, but even with his issues this year he still go on base at a .350 clip as a 21-year old at AA/AAA. My take for a while has been he’ll be a defense-first big leaguer hitting No. 7 or 8 and getting on base in an NL lineup, which isJohn (Oregon): Nick Williams is likely #1 on the BA Cold Sheet with one walk since the all star break. How far has his stock fallen for you and would you even consider him a top 100 prospect anymore?

    Kyle Glaser: To me he drops out of the top 100, every bit as much for how much he got benched as his performance. It hasn’t been pretty. Power without patience/contact, repeated makeup infractions and negligible game speed on the basepaths (6 SB, 4 CS) does not make for a top 100 guy. plenty fine.

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20. Can anyone provide a quick overview of what Keith Law said about Tirado in today’s post:
    http://www.espn.com/blog/keith-law/insider/post?id=5594

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    1. Hit 100 on Law’s gun

       95-100 for the entire night

       Threw mainly fastballs

       Lightning quick arm, with above average control

       Inconsistent breaking ball

       Change up at 93 – not a viable third pitch

       Current profile is high end reliever

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       1. He also mentioned Randolph … Great bat speed. Mature body that will probably push him to first base, but doubts he will have power. Will never have a problem catching up too high velocity

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21. He tweeted this: https://twitter.com/keithlaw/status/771827222680248320?lang=en

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22. By the way – I’m totally pumped about Tirado. This is why you trade for big arms. If something clicks you can have a top of the rotation pitcher or elite reliever on your hands. It was an extremely well-conceived trade that could pay huge dividends in the future.

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    1. Yeah the Revere trade looks like it will be very good for the Phillies cause Tirado and Cordero look pretty good recently. I was at the a Reading game last week and Cordero look pretty good, and was hitting triple digits, but mainly 98 and 99. Also, Tirado as a starter in the Phillies system has been great. I also saw on here that he has a 14.14 K/9 rate? Also someone said that he was throwing in the high 90’s and reaching 100 a few times. I don’t think he will be a starter for the Phillies in the future, but he seems like he can be a dominant reliever. Most pitcher add 2-3 MPH on there fastball when they shift to the bullpen, so that would bring him to 97-100, and reaching up to 101 or maybe 102 (that gun seems off, but whatever) and a 14.14 K/9 would make him a great reliever and the Yankees just showed everyone how valuable relievers with that ability are really, so it would be truly amazing if the Phillies got one (and another reliever that hits 100+) for Ben Revere.

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23. Crawford is 1-2 so far (way better than usaul). And Williams hit a HR (and has been hit by a pitch).

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24. Huh. Crawford must have read this comment section (or any comment section for Phillies minor leaguers), or get really disappointed(?) that he didn’t get promoted that he decided that he needed more hits. Now he is 2-3 tonight!

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25. JP Crawford is now 3-4 with a double and Ben Lively has no hit Rochester through 6 innings, 0 BB’s and 10 K’s, the only base runner reached on a fielding error.

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