Minor Moves

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MLB Trade Rumors reports eight minor league signings by the Phillies.  This isn’t too big a deal.  Last week, Baseball America reported that 16 Phillies’ AAA and AA players entered free agency.  The Phillies will be signing a lot of minor league free agents to fill out rosters.

The signings of John Hester, Brian Bogusevic, and Darin Mastroianni had been reported earlier.

Andres Blanco and Russ Canzler represent the resigning of players who were on IronPigs roster last season.

Outfielders Jeff Francoeur, Xavier Paul, and infielder Chase D’Arnaud will be new to the organization.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/11/phillies-sign-francoeur-seven-others-to-minor-league-deals.html

106 thoughts on “Minor Moves”

  1. I like the Francoeur signing. He has always had a strong arm and pretty good defense. I could see him sharing at bats with Sizemore in LF or possibly right if Byrd is traded. He could also eat some innings in blow out games. No risk signing that has a chance to be an interesting.

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    2. I won’t say this is a case where modern metrics “proves” that a player is lousy – because QUALITY traditional analysis leads to the same conclusion. But he is an example of where modern metrics can shine a light on the difference between poor and quality traditional talent evaluation. Because he’s awful – by the metrics and by QUALITY traditional evaluation – but precisely the kind of player (“looks” like a ballplayer, athletic, but with poor plate discipline and not really able to translate the tools into quality major league play) who fools poor talent evaluators. This is Delmon Young all over again (though Young was an even worse player and a negative clubhouse guy; the latter is apparently not true of Francoeur. OTOH, at least Young was, well, young enough that one could imagine him finally putting it together; Francoeur will be 31 years old on opening day).

      Not a knock on you, but a knock on the organization. The move is nothing in and of itself – unless he gets substantial playing time at the major league level – but indicative of the truly horrible talent evaluation in the organization.

      I go back and forth on just how pessimistic to be about the organization. I’ve even criticized some of the more reactionary negative comments. But at the end of the day, I just can’t see this team being contenders again as long as the current crew is in charge. And the reason is poor talent evaluation.

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      1. But, they can say that they are improving their D! We will see a bunch of flyers taken on guys. That is what a bad team does. We have to hope that somehow they luck into a prospect when they make the inevitable few deals. It will not be by skill. This organization needs a new team president, GM and all the way through to player evaluating and development personnel.

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      2. In a vacuum this move is not problematic. In context of Delmon Young two years ago and certain comments by Aamro, it’s mildly troubling. But I won’t get too worked up until he starts getting plate appearances.

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        1. The big differences to me are that Young was given millions of dollars (with hundreds of thousands more not for performance but for making weight and just getting plate appearances) and anointed the starting right fielder even though he was and awful in left, whereas Francoer was given a minor league deal and traditionally considered a good fielder.

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          1. Let’s aim to deal in facts Young was not given millions at least not by the Phillies he was given $750K. In addition many attacked the sign because they didn’t like the man personally but from a baseball sense it was a neutral move

            backed by the fact that the Rays making a push for the playoffs picked him up after the phillies released him and the Orioles picking him up for last season where he managed adequate production in 83 games for a division winner. I mean do you think Buck Showalter knows a thing or two about talent?

            Conversely anyone that would get their panties in a wad over minor league signs presents themselves as morons with axes to grind.

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      3. I’d say you HAD to like the results of the Phillies management signings last year, specifically MAG, Sizemore and Hernandez as well as the way Byrd has played himself into being a reasonably valuable player and trade option, unless you are someone who is adverse to the Phillies having a couple of years doing really badly and getting high draft picks. But of course it is a somewhat free country in terms of not really HAVING to do anything- and Larry you have historically very accurately and factually identified a number of areas not to like. Who do you think it was, though, who was in Philly during the 2003–>2011 years in which they were contenders who was the good talent evaluator?

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      4. I agree with what you say about Francoeur as a ballplayer and concerns about the organization’s talent evaluation. Francoeur has been pretty darned awful and I have zero expectation that he can be a viable big league player. But, at this point, I really don’t see Francoeur as anything more than a training camp body and probably a guy who will play at AAA and try to revive his career somehow – if that’s how the Phillies see him, it’s probably not a big deal. If he starts taking playing time from younger players in the majors (or even in AAA), then it will be a problem, but I hope that won’t be the case.

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    3. The risk is that he takes playing time away from players who are actually good. Not that we have too many of those.

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    2. Norma;;y Ruben likes Friday afternoon news announcements.
      I guess he doesn’t want the media to jump on him the very next day.
      Gives him a few days to prepare for questions.
      Hopefully he keeps that routine going tomorrow.

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      1. they signed him to a major league deal which means he takes up a 40 man spot, but he still has 3 minor league options available, so he wont necessarily be part of the big club in the next season.

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    2. Elvis, who has not left the building, is doing pretty well in the VWL. He’s 2 – 0 (big deal) and has pitched 7 innings over 6 outings. He has given up 3 hits, no runs and has 8 Ks and 2 BBs. He looks like a guy you want to take a flyer on. He looks like a rule 5 pickup without the $50K price tag. The money they’ll pay him is worth it. IMO

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          1. I’ve just been taking a comment break – wish I was on vacation. Thanks for noticing that I’m back 🙂

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  7. Anyone notice Jerome Williams doesn’t show on the 40 man roster? Possibly just an oversight, or maybe something more?

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  10. Anonymous…where did you hear this? I am pretty connected to the Bay Area and while I have seen that they are interested in him, I have seen nothing to indicate he is on his way to SF to sign. Not saying you are wrong, just curious where you saw or heard this? Thanks in advance.

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    1. The sportswriters love this time of year as they can make up almost any rumor possible and turn it into a story. Tomas is going to Chicago to meet his agent in Chicago not sign with a MLB team today.

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  11. Tomas is supposed to arrive in Chicago tomorrow to meet with his agent, not SF although they are in the hunt.

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      1. Seriously!, clear money for what? They have nothing except money. Not close to luxury tax, this seems like a made up story that Gammons posted. He used to be really good, but has not been so lately.

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        2. I read that too, and am as baffled as you guys are. If the organization is taking the conservative, “attendance is down, income is down, so we can’t spend up to the cap” approach, then many critics of the organization’s cheapness will be vindicated. Not because there’s anything inherently wrong with an organization desiring to be profitable, but because it’s short sighted – the payroll goes way down in 2016, and further down from there, so we’re talking about (even assuming that the team really is strapped for money in 2015, a generous assumption) one year of going into the red.

          Now, there may be OTHER reasons to pass on Tomas, but one year of red ink, even assuming that it would be the case, is not one of them.

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          1. If this is true, it’s worse than baffling, it could be more evidence of backward thinking. I could easily see this signing being met by resistance with the more passive and conservative limited investors. The conversation might go like this.

            Gillick: Ruben wants to sign this kid Tomas, the scouts think he could be a big star here and both Ruben and I agree with this evaluation.

            Limited Partner: Does he have any big league experience?

            Gillick: No, he’s from Cuba, but the scouting reports are outstanding.

            Limited Partner: Can we get him for the type of money we paid for Miguel Gonzalez?

            Gillick: No, there will be a bit of bidding competition for this fellow.

            Limited Partner: So what do you think it will cost?

            Gillick: The bidding is going to start at around $75 or 80 million and could go up around $100 million or so for about 6 years – we might be able to get a team option for a 7th year.

            Limited Partner: What? That’s exorbitent. That doesn’t sound like a very safe investment. What does Monty say?

            Gillick: We think there is minimal risk, but nobody can ever know for sure with these foreign players. Frankly, Monty said it sounds “too rich for his blood” but we can do it if we’re sure he’s going to be a star. Again, I can’t promise stardom, but we think he’s likely to at least be very good and, even if he’s just very good, he’s worth the contract, especially if we don’t have to deal any of the young players we like.

            Limited Partner: You said we won’t be competitve again until 2017 at the earliest and may 2018 or 2019, right?

            Gillick: Right.

            Limited Partner: And attendance is ebbing down and will be worse the next few years, right? Like a lot worse.

            Gillick: Right.

            Limited Partner: I know that John [Middleton] is probably going to want this, but I think we should poll the other partners and Monty and see what we’re going to do, but, to me, this sounds like a lot of wasted money on a team that’s not very good – let’s wait a few years. I appreciate your trying to be the good soldier here Pat, and thank goodness you’ve been here while David recovers, but it seems we’ve gone hog wild with these contracts and look where it’s gotten us – last place and few fans. That’s not good business. No, I’m reluctant to support this one.

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      2. rocco….”Phillies cant clear money’ , well they got half my down payment for tixs next year, sent it in yesterday. They like to have full payment, by all season tix holder by next month.
        Bonus end-of-year money ….Merry Christmas Ruben..

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        2. I saw that comment, didn’t they just find out they’re saving Burnett’s money? They certainly won’t spend that much on replacement arms. The catcher position is so hot this offseason with so little available after Martin, I wonder if Chooch gets a market interested in him. That would save us some money.

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    1. I don’t see the Phillies paying a luxury tax for a signing. It just goes against their nature. I couldn’t disagree with their position on this any more than I do, but I don’t see them incurring a tax.

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    2. I definitely like the reports I’ve seen on Moncada a lot better than Tomas for the amount of money involved. I suppose another consideration is other possible international signings over the next two years they would lose out on.

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  15. I’ve been hearing the comment “this is what bad teams should be doing” a lot lately. Shouldn’t a bad team being doing what the Cubs are soing, blowing out their international budget and signing the top international free agents. Giving spring training at bats to a bunch of re-treads does nothing to help the team get better. They should be signing Tomas and in on Moncade. Then we can all agree that those are moves a bad team with significant financial resources should be making.

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    1. It’s a valid approach, but one that is optimized by starting at the beginning of international signing season. If you are going to blow by the limit and take on two years of restricted signings, then blow through big time. If the Phillies are inclined to sign him, it would make more sense to persuade him to hold on until the next international season in July and spend really big. It is no problem losing the ability to pay large bonuses for two years, if you sign 4 years worth of top talent.

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  16. This is the same philosophy of the not going above slot when there was no slotting only Commissioner recommendations. It seems the Comm office is fine if they spend 10 yrs and $150Mill on Tomas, but $30 or so on Moncade and saying screw the luxury tax on International signings seems to annoy the Comm. And, the Phils do not buck the Comm. It is residual from Selig helping Giles put the deal together and being a part owner with zero dollars of his own.

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  17. I also think it is not to do anything the commissioner doesn’t want. All imo because his dad ran the league and he has some weird loyalty to the office. While other teams laugh and sign guys. Imo one of the things that ruined this team.

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    1. I think you are absolutely correct about what has guided the Phillies approach to amateur bonuses in years past. I am hopeful that Giles’ influence is now fast becoming a thing of that past and that Gillick/Middleton won’t worry about tweaking the commish. It’s going to be a new commish, anyway. It was always stupid to be the boy scout competing against pirates. I think for Giles, it was also a way to save money. He always seemed to view the high-bonus kids as over-priced and undeserving — not at all the way things used to be, should be, and magically would become again.

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      1. I never could understand how a 2 percent partner like Giles, had so much pull with the ownership. I would think that Middleton would have the most say. but Giles is slick . I never liked him as a decision maker and owner. I sit here and think, of the people like romus. who spend all that money on seats, and have to hear, unless we get rid of salary, Tomas might be out of our reach. This isn’t the marlins, especially since they just got a boat load of money from Comcast.

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        2. rocco.
          Here is a summary of a report by Howard Eskin last month. Take it for what its worth. Eskin has his critics.

          • David Montgomery, part owner and former president, did not step aside from the team back in August voluntarily for health reasons, but was instead pushed out by the owners due to decisions he has made in re-signing some of the older veterans on the team.

          • John Middleton, who is currently a minority owner, has been collecting ownership of the team, and now owns 48% of the team. No owner can own the majority, unless it is approved in a vote, which is expected to take place. That would allow Middleton to become the majority owner.

          • Middleton, when/if he has majority control, will allow Pat Gillick to serve as the president of the team, and the two will be heavily involved in baseball decisions. It also sounds like general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. will remain.

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            1. Roccum, if your boss tells you to do something don’t you comply with the request even if you do not agree. Amaro has made some bad moves but maybe they were owner driven demands. Take a look at Detroit, I bet that Dombrowski did not want to resign Victor Martinez but was forced to by the Tigers owner.

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  18. Catch how nuts it that. they will spend that money on Stanton. And the league will help them pay him as small market team. I just don’t get it.

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    1. Philabaltfan I have heard the rumors. That it was Montgomery who wanted the veterans resign, I still don’t want amaro, he hasn’t done anything in the trade market or his signing like pap to make me think he knows what to do. Are you telling me it was someone else who panicked and sign pap and byrd to extra years??? I cant buy that. I can buy that Montgomery forced the rollins and Utley and chooch signing. but not the others.

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    1. Maybe he figures if he can go 7 innings in the NL vs AL, he gets one free inning facing a pitcher vs a DH.
      Who knows…the O’s are a legit contending team just like the Pirates and I assume they could also afford him at $8M. or maybe he prefers Primanti sandwiches vs Maryland crabcakes.

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      1. The Pirates probably regress this year especially if they lose Russell Martin to another team which could happen. I think if he was more serious about going to a contender the Orioles have a better chance to make the playoffs. Burnett other than his first year in New York did not do well in major city teams.

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  22. The Phillies need to get creative in free agency . . . I think Brett Anderson would be a guy to look at. He played last year for the Rockies after coming back from injury and pitched 43.1 innings with a 2.91 ERA, he was still getting back into the swing of things yet put up good numbers (3.54ERA at Coors and 2.35 elsewhere). His salary was 8m which he prob. won’t get in free agency esp. when he has only thrown about 120 innings over the last 3 years. Here’s how to be creative . . he’s prob looking for a one year deal to cash in in free agency after the 2015 season. Offer him a decent 1 year deal that’s incentive laden and then do something most teams won’t, add option years to the contract (team options) with good money. Here’s an example

    2015 – 4m with incentives that could bring him to 8m

    2016 – Team Option 10m

    2017 – Team Option 12m

    2018 – Team Option 12m

    2019 – Team Option 14m

    2020 – Team Option 15m

    He’s only 26 right now, will be 27 going into the 2015 season so he’s young enough to be part of the rebuild and next contending team. What you do here is basically if all goes well have locked up when healthy a potential 2 or a solid 3 for 67m-71m over 6 years, his 27-32 seasons. That’s an AAV of just under 12m. It would prob be appealing to Anderson bc he has the potential to have a long term deal as long as he is healthy.

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    1. I don’t think the Phillies could get a deal like that. I doubt any agent would accept it. All of those team options without corresponding player options or opt out? When has a deal like this ever happened in MLB?

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      1. Oh I don’t think that it has ever happened but with a injury bugged player like Anderson this deal is friendly to both team and player. The only way this hurts Anderson is if he were to put up back to back seasons where he’s throwing 180 plus IP w a low ERA, then he might be able to get more then 12per year.

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      1. So a player who is often injured wouldn’t take that? If you told Brett Anderson that all he had to do was stay healthy and pitch to that of a 3rd starter he could have a 67-71m deal on the table. Please explain why he wouldn’t want that? Now a pitcher like Lester obviously wouldn’t take that because he can command a lot more money but someone like Brett Anderson, not so much.

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        1. Because the player would want an option to opt out for a longer term deal that is more player friendly; especially given the cost of starting pitching.

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  23. I like the deal. but he Phillies cant do that deal. They say they have to move some money. even though, They are going to have a ton of money to spend in 2016. I am so stump on there statement. I believe if he worked out the second year they couldn’t pay him, and would have to release him, which would get people mad, but if you don’t have the money you just need need cheaper options.

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  24. That statement is so infuriating, if true. But I believe that Gammons was not giving good information. I think they are planning to spend $, and Gammons has not had good intel on the Phils for a while. I dislike most of what they have done for the past few years, and some of the things for much longer, but I am willing to be proven wrong on the spending $. They don’t have to move a dime and can spend whatever they have to get Tomas. They may not get him anyway, but I think it will not be because of $.

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    2. I guess we don’t actually know how much spending room Gillick has or to what extent Tomas is willing to back-load his contract. There is the lux cap limit, which I’m assuming the Phillies are unwilling to break, since the Phillies have 100% always been unwilling to budget above the Commish’s voluntary or semi-hard limits (pairing Selig and semi-hard makes me chuckle). Beyond that, there are also apparently limits related to debt level or debt service, which I don’t understand. Somebody mentioned (I wish I could remember where) that this latter limit may come into play. I don’t know how future salary commitments tie into this, or whether the team’s falling revenue ties into this, as the Comcast revenue hasn’t arrived yet, while ticket sales are down. I don’t know how much stadium debt the team has. I’d really appreciate it if someone who understands the situation can discuss in some detail exactly what the debt limit is and how that effects the Phillies.

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      1. I am not a financial wizard by any stretch, but this team was purchased for $37Million all those years ago. It is now worth, at minimum, $1Billion. Regardless of the cost of the stadium, which I think was $125Million to the Phillies, debt service limits are based on the percentage of the debt relative to the value of the franchise. They have an awful long way to go

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  25. I believe its real simple. They wont spend any money over cap. nomatter if it would make them better or not. They made the mistakes that put this team in this situation, and refuse to spend whatever it takes to try to get better. I could care less if Comcast money is there or not. They have a lot of guts to tell us it will take three years or more to get better. In those three years will they reduce ticket prices.?

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    1. It is not that they will not spend the money to get better but rather they have to move money to spend money to upgrade.

      The team is too old and plain and simple not good enough.

      The only solution is to move some high salary guys to make room for new blood.

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  26. David if they have to MOVE MONEY TO SPEND MONEY. what is different then my statement. they wont spend over the cap to get better.

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    1. They’re nowhere near the cap.

      If the reports are true, then the “solution” is not to move salary. The solution is to give up on the laughing stock of a joke franchise. The Phillies have less salary commitment that MOST of the teams in baseball. The only season where salary is even remotely an issue is 2015, and given the team’s resources “remotely” is the right word.

      If it’s true that being in the bottom third in salaries (not for 2015, but in terms of salary commitments) is too high for this organization, then that, combined with hideous talent judgement, will result in a franchise that will string together a few dozen 110 loss seasons.

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      1. Note that I’m NOT usually one to call the organization “cheap.” But whatever term you want to use, if the reports are true, and whether you want to use the term “cheap” or not, the notion that the team needs to clear salary to sign Tomas is just bizarre. To be fair, it’s SO bizarre that perhaps I should be a bit more charitable and assume that the report is bogus.

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  27. See that the Braves and Cubs did a trade that involved swapping international bonus slots. I didn’t know this was allowed.

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    1. Braves may be picking up the international money (Cubs and Cards) to go after Moncada. And after next season, Heyward will cost the Cards some money..
      Hard to believe how the Braves are making so many changes so fast.
      We should be so fortunate that Ruben is so thorough, meticulous and thoughtful in his decision-making process! 🙂

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  29. I love what Stanton and his agent are doing to the Marlins. Stanton wants to be traded to a place he wants to play if possible but at the very least anything out of Miami will suit him just fine until FA

    But since the Marlins brass refuse to hear any offers for him the Stanton camp throws out a number 10/$325 and I’ll stay. Classic…

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    1. Actually it is 13/$325M…same annual as Howard’s…..$25M per year.
      What happened to the inflationary factor!

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      1. They also bought him out of two years of arbitration, so it’s more like $26 or 27 million. Also, when the contract goes that long the team is also absorbing a ton of risk and paying for what is likely to be few of his declining years – it’s probably a good deal for both the player and the team but it still strains the imagination – $325 million. Wow!

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  30. Somebody needs to explain to me why the Marlins would do this and not trade him. He has to bring a ton, and now they can’t/won’t pay to put a team around him. They have some young cost-controlled pitching, but I don’t get it.

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    1. They will trade him if the team does not contend and other contracts escalate the going price for a player of his ilk – I think it’s still better than 50/50 odds that he ultimately gets traded. The owner is an absolute con man (if you are ever in Miami ask any of the locals about the scam he pulled on the local government to build the stadium – it’s mind boggling) – if I were Stanton, knowing I’d get paid in arbitration for the next two years and knowing that I could choose the team I wanted to go to thereafter, I wouldn’t have signed this deal.

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      2. I would have taken this deal in a minute. He knows he will be moved. take the sure money over what I might get in two years of arb.

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  31. Well they will get money from major league baseball for being small market. that will help them pay his salary.

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  32. Cardinals get better with the Heyward deal. I think they made a great trade. He doesn’t hit like they projected him to, but the projections were Mickey Mantle-ish! He is, however, a solid hitter and a Plus defender and certainly makes the Cards better. Shelby Miller is ok. A big win to the Cards. I hate them, but certainly respect their personnel decisions.

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    1. This trade was the steal of the offseason. Even hitting well below his potential, Heyward still played to a 6.3 bWAR and a 5.1 fWAR. In other words, even when he turns in a disappointing performance, he’s essentially a star because he’s anywhere from good to great at all the little things, including OBP, baserunning and fielding (he’s become an outstanding fielder). He’s the anti-Dom Brown. And he just finished his age 24 season and I’m sure he will get much better hitting instruction in St. Louis. And some how they also convinced the Braves to throw in power reliever Jordan Walden, who’s no slouch.

      Not to take anything away from Shelby Miller – he’s a nice young pitcher – but I think this trade was the steal of the decade thus far and I think the Braves are out of their minds not offering Heyward a long term deal now, while he is still quite young and his traditional statistics don’t match his true value. Yup, this sure made the Braves a lot worse.

      I’m beginning to think our primary offseason strategy should be to watch the Mets and the Braves voluntarily shoot themsleves in the foot. Keep it up fellas!

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      1. Don’t forget the Marlins with them fielding a one star player and no support around him. Stanton will regret this deal by season three of the contract.

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  33. I watch Heyward a lot on tv. The one thing about him that surprises me is how he is rated as a fielder. I know he has a great arm. But I have seen him misjudge fly balls and run some strange routes to balls. but I guess its just me, I read that he is a plus fielder, which I never seen. but has a really good obp. runs wells. good trade for both if Shelby miller continues to get better. his numbers are pretty good at 23. something like 160 hits in 180 innings.

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  34. I know romus. just maybe its me, but don’t see him as a really good outfielder. I Think he is a decent offense player, but I don’t see him all year like the writers, and scouts. I just think its a trade that will help both teams. I like miller. not as one sided as people think.

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  35. I see that Reid Brignac signed with the Marlins, too bad as actually would have liked to see him return to the phils for cheap depth, oh well.

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