It’s good to see Mattair end his slump today. He had a multi-hit game today, with a double and a single. He had alot of multi-hit games in July,but has been ice cold in August. Hopefully he finishes the season strong-preferably with a few more multi-hit gemes.
I think at this point, it’s less about promoting guys, and trying to keep teams together for their respective playoff runs.
There becomes a time in the season (like the last two weeks), where player development (the technical aspect of it anyway) becomes secondary to winning, which of course helps players develop in other ways.
I can see that argument, but for two weeks, what would you rather have?
1) See what a guy can do at LHV for 2 weeks at the end of the season
2) Experience a playoff race which is instrumental in playing for a winning franchise. Playing to a higher level of competition is great, but so is finding out what intangibles these guys have (i.e. do certain guys handle pressure better than others down the stretch)
This argument of course is somewhat mitigated by the fact that LHV is in a race of their own, so they may be able to achieve the same results there.
It’s not like Cloyd would find himself on the 25 man roster in any scenario. It’s about his development, not trying to see if he can pitch in the majors now.
Lavin, along with other college signees, has performed as well as could be expected… even better for a few of them. It is positive to see draftees get to Lakewood before their first pro summer is over. These are the players that will fill the rosters throughout the different levels of the minors; keeping the number of retreads to a minimum. They aren’t always the “sexy” picks or elite prospects, but they can provide quality depth throughout the system; from Philly downward.
The names of Lavin, Duke, Alonso, Morgan, Wright, Stumpo, etc. may not be the most age appropriate, but they have done everything asked of them to this point. The next levels of challenges have to come from management. In essence, these aren’t the flashy picks, they seem to be positive ones nonetheless.
This is his history. He goes on tears that make everyone stand up and take notice; then he disappears in the line-up. It has happened every year and in Mexico during the winter. That is why contributors on this site have cited his plate discipline. He is basically a player with good eye-hand coordination and power. He has improved greatly as a defensive catcher and as a handler of the pitching staff. Pitchers, as he goes up to the top levels, will take advantage of poor plate discipline and make him suffer until he becomes more selective about what he chooses to swing at. If you think of Ruiz when he first came to the majors, he was similar with many strike outs and grounding into double plays. It was only last year that Ruiz developed a better plate discipline.
Hopefully, Valle will learn plate discipline before he gets to the big leagues.
Mattair’s bat resuscitated for today. Buchanan had a strong start.
Rivero homers. Holy batman Tyler Cloyd. I know he’s 24 and still at AA but he’s having quite the year.
Two hits and a sacrifice for Galvis. Another solid appearance for Aumont. His K rate in AAA so far is absurd.
Cloyd seems close enough that age should not be a factor. Can’t get over his lack of BBs against a goodly number of Ks. Seems like he’s come “out of nowhere.” Maybe another “find” by their scouts’ good evaluation(s). LV ’12.
On the contrary, Cloyd has always been there, but has suffered in comparison with his contemporaries from his fast ball. His BB/K ratio in Lakewood was outstanding, similar to what you see now. To work on developing starting pitchers with better velocity, the Phillies put Cloyd in the bullpen. He hit a real trough in Clearwater where he couldn’t find the plate. He seemed to get his bearings in the second half and was promoted to Reading to end the year. They put him back in Clearwater to start this year, but then moved him to Reading when it was obvious that he could help there.
He needs the control and command to succeed. He seems to have become equally good at short bullpen stints and longer ones as a starter, which he always was. He is a guy who has become an excellent pitcher. He can succeed in the major leagues. I think this has become obvious to the Phillies. I’m sure you will see Cloyd (excellent control and command) and Hyatt (same velocity niche, but with a major league change-up) in LHV next year and maybe with the Phillies or another major league club the following year. In my opinion Cloyd is for real.
Isn’t it a treat to have such outstanding pitching talent in the system. We have all the starting pitcher classes inside the system from May, Pettibone and Colvin to Hyatt, Rodriguez and Cloyd. And they are not that far away.
Anon – I agree, people who are discounting brown aren’t being rational… that said, It’s really not his offense that worries me… He had a 750 ops in his time w/ the phillies… more then enough for a rookie outfielder… the real worry for me was the defense. As to his time at AAA, disappointing, i would have preferred he hit .350 w/ a .450 obp and a .550 slugging, but hey, he’s walking a ton which is great and I was never really worried about his hitting skill.
What I don’t get is how no one noticed his lack of defense prior to this year. It looked like more then just a little problem… could be small sample size, but either way, concerning.
The same one that can’t catch a cold in either corner OF? Don’t even give him a glove at this point, just let him pick the sucker up when it stops rolling and throw it into the infield…. to the wrong base of course.
I don’t think Dom brown will start next year. John mayberry been solid and helpful all year. But If Dom brown starts getting his swing back like he used to. The phiiles will then have a hard choice between those 2
Dom really stunk up the place at CBP this season. Though I do recognize that many scouts/pundits/commentators last year labeled him as the #1 Phils prospect and perhaps among the top 3 or 4 in the minors, the results here and now at LV have been “disappointing.”
He did well there before coming up to the bigs but in his MLB trial holes were found in his swing and he has yet to recover. He believe he needs to adjust his swing to be shorter and start not so far away from the strike zone. He also has to learn to tighten his outfield tracking and his loosey- goosey swipes at the ground ball in defense.
He represents all kinds of possibilities with his athleticism and what I believe is his untapped talent. Hope he makes those adjustments; if necessary in another season at LV. I’d look forward to an “adjusted” Dom.
His offense was fine… he didn’t “stink”… his defense as a whole sucked but as a whole player, he wasn’t horrible and if you discount for the bad d, i’d give him above average.
There’s a segment of the readership here who assigns a negative value to BB. BB are unmanly, you see. At least for middle of the lineup players. If you go by that philosophy, his hitting was pretty disappointing I guess. Of course it’s a crazy philosophy, but if you start with crazy assumptions, crazy conclusions can follow.
Absent a career ending injury, the chance that Mayberry has more career value than Brown is zero. Heck, I’d say Mayberry has a less that 1% chance of having as much as 20% of the career value of Brown. And I LIKE Mayberry. As a 4th outfielder
Mr Larrym….when it comes to BBs and their importance….do you do assign more of a value on the BBs to the lead-off hitter, number 2 batter and the 7th and 8th batter (NL) in the lineups versus the 3-4-5-6 hole hitters? or doesn’t it matter?
Brown’s plate discipline took a big step forward this season. Offensively he’s fine. Mayberry hitting the upper level of his projection hit .269 so far this season. He could easily take a step back. I think you could look at a platoon in LF next year with Mayberry taking some starts against some lefties.
Defensively, I think the Phillies moving Brown to LF so early says something. Brown has struggled but I think some of that is due to learning the different hook the ball takes on that side. Dom only played 8 games in LF before this year. Brown does have a very good arm out there at least. I think he’ll be average there, and it’s not like the Phils have a history of exceptional fielders in left.
I think it says “we have Hunter Pence for at least 2 more years.” I don’t think they had any intention of moving him to LF otherwise. RF and LF have the same positional demands when it comes to range and such. The only difference is that RFs are expected to have a bigger arm.
huh, are you saying that every bad defensive player is the result of bad coaching? I’m guessing that the Rizz is really a GG caliber SS if they would just coach him up right.
no i think what he was saying is that Dom obviously has the athleticism to play the position well. However, the the things that he does poorly are in areas where coaching and repetition will help. I personally dont think its a coaches or anyones fault, i think that as he came up they were more focused on his hitting skills developing and figured he could rely on his natural ability until he needed to learn. Because he flew through the upper minors, he didnt get the time to work with the coachs and gain repetition in gauging ball flights, route running, positioning himself behind the ball, and even the quick mental decisions on where to throw. I think as he works on this, he could very well become a well above average defender.
I’m not sure what to make of mayberry… sure looks a lot like another jason werth / shane victorino, even though i’m hestitant to say that since Werth is sucking this year, and a player coming out of obscurity like that is very uncommon.
you’re absolutely right though, odds favor regression… but it’s not impossible that he’s the player he was drafted to be… if Jose Bautista can pull the shit he did (fringe to top 5 at position), obviously it can be done, it’s just not all that likely…
In Mayberry, I see a guy with growing confidence, who believes in himself, and is ready to move to higher levels of performance. I believe he will be a major component of our offense next year, batting 6th.
In March I referenced Maybery and Werth in the same statement and on of the more out-spoken readers on here immediately lambasted me for such a ridiculous comparison—his claim, Werth’s earlier stats from his younger years before the wrist injury, were much better then anything Mayberry ever could put up—of course Mayberry was a college guy and Werth came up from HS and arrived to the MLB a little earlier age-wise.
I think I was probably that “outspoken reader” that lambasted you (although I dont remember for sure). And I still stand by my statement. Mayberry is a good 4th OF. I still doubt he is ever half the player Jayson Werth was. Let me know when Mayberry hits 30 HRs or even starts on a World Series team. One thing Jayson Werth always provided was good ABs and a high OBP, 2 things that Mayberry is still lacking in.
Not trying to be a Mayberry basher. I really like him and think he has really stepped up this year. I just dont think he is, has ever been, or ever will be the caliber of baseball player that Jayson Werth is….
Amen. I think people forget that this is the same John Mayberry that hit .194 in May and was in the minors all of June. It will be interesting to see if there’s still all this love when he goes through his next slump.
Reminds me of the Derrick Mitchell for 4th OF craziness that was going on earlier in the year. Once his hot streak ended people forgot about him. Funny how a good month can turn you into the next All-Star or super prospect. Remember that Jayson Werth had multiple wrist injuries which is why he was a late bloomer, NOT a career minor-leaguer, AAAA guy like Mayberry.
But hey, if he does turn out to be that good, I’ll eat my crow and love it because he’ll be doing it with the Phillies.
I still think Mitchell has a chance to be a 4th OF. He needs more consistency and better plate discipline. So he at least has a chance. It’s nice to see him put it together sometimes because he has a lot of athletic ability.
Let’s tease apart a couple issues. One of course is sample size. True, you could once have made the same argument about Werth. But here’s the thing – MOST players who perform substantially above prior performance (adjusted for age curves)will regress. It’s hard to predict in advance who will be the exeptions. Mayberry COULD be one – he could duplicate his current numbers over a full season or course of seasons. But the chances are low.
But of course the second issue is BB, and it’s why the comparison is not just premature but absurd. Werth’s career BB rate is almost double Mayberry’s.
Finally, Werth had some signficant injury issues in his pre-Phillie career. If you look at players who break out in their mid 20s with surprising performances, often there is an injury history which depressed prior perfromance. Or a guy who mashed in the minors but for whatever reason didn’t get a fair chance in the majors. Mayberry doesn’t really fit this pattern.
Look, I like him, and am prepared to believe that a portion of what we are seeing is “real.” But the Phillies would be foolish – foolish – to install him as a regular next year. Especially with Brown waiting in the wings.
I love how people are overreacting to Domonic Brown struggling… 3 things:
1) He was rushed to the MLB, then subsequently benched and lost a signifigant amount of development time last year.
2) He had hand surgery. I remember Chase couldn’t drive the ball last year when he came back… and he’s one of the top 10 hitters in the game, why would you expect anything more from a rookie who still doesn’t know his swing.
3) He’s shown great plate dicipline, something that desperatly needed in our line up.
Look at Freddie Freeman in Atlanta, he struggled to start the year and now is one of the better hitters in the game since he got comfortable in the Major Leagues, well on his way to a rookie of the year award. Jason Heyward is struggling, and I think we can all agree he’s a better prospect than Domonic Brown.
Should you be concerned? A little bit… but there’s no reason to give up on him.
In evaluating Brown, his 2010 season in the majors should be disregarded. He was all right until Victorino came off the DL. Then, Brown was benched and essentially limited to PH duties.
In 2011, given the hamate injury, his rookie status and his plate discipline, Brown’s performance at the plate was satisfactory.
My disappointment with Brown is his defense. He is clueless and plays as though he is new to the sport.
I would start 2012 with the assumption that Brown and Mayberry will platoon in LF. Mayberry can also be late-inning defensive replacement for Brown. The competition will be good for the players and the team.
I would love to see this happen. Domonic held his own in the Majors this year and I think a combination of Mayberry and Brown would be a good combo in the 6th or 7th spot in the line up.
The way I see Brown is like this:
1) 2010, he’s starting out in Reading. Think about that. To most people, he’s completely unknown. He’s some 22 year old kid in the minors.
2) He does great. He gets promoted to Lehigh Valley. He does great.
3) Vic gets hurt and Brown gets a callup. I think he was impressive until Vic returned. Remember, he started the year in Reading and now he’s in a pennant race playing in front of 40,000 people in a big city that is one of the toughest places to play in.
4) The front office decides to keep Brown on the bench when Vic returns. Brown has power and speed, and these attributes could round out the Phillies bench.
5) Brown has never had this role before. He has to be ready to face major league pitching after a long period of not playing. Very difficult. He has never faced major league pitching. He started the year out at Reading. He develops all kinds of bad habits and he strikes out a lot even though he is capable of making a lot of contact. This sample is not representative because he was coming off the bench.
6) Because of Brown’s status as one of the best prospects in baseball and the fanfare with which he was introduced by the media, Brown draws a lot of attention. His struggles coming off the bech are scrutinized, particularly because he is seen as the succesor to Jayson Werth. Philly begins to panic and Brown gets a Philly-style baptism by fire. Again, he started out 2010 making his Reading debut.
7) The front office decide to make up for the time Brown lost while on the bench by sending him to winter ball. Unfortunately, Brown is so rusty from not having been playing and he has acquired such bad habits from being on the bench that he’s awful and he gets sent home. Panic in Philly goes up and the baptism by fire continues, with people wondering whether Brown is yet another Phillies bust.
8) Brown, immediately after leaving winter ball, begins to workout in Clearwater. He wants to get ready for the competition for the rightfield spot that will ensue in 2011. 2010 was the longest season of his life, since the minor league season is shorter than the major league one.
9) Finally spring training has arrived. Greg Gross asks Brown to lower his hands. Brown has a hard time with this adjustment and struggles for 15 at-bats. When he does get his first hit, he breaks his hamate bone.
10) Brown catches fire when he returns from the DL. He hit 2 homeruns in a game in Clearwater and continued to hit well over .300 in triple A. With Fransisco struggling, Brown takes over and platoon with Fransisco in rightfield. He begins to experience the pressure and excitement of being in a pennant race in front of the tough Philly fans.
11) Brown shows flashes of brilliance in his rookie season, hitting 2 long homers in one game as well as other highlights. But he is raw. He makes mistakes like not hustling, missing bases and failing to go after balls he could catch. He endures a prolonged slump, but recovers to hit .300 for the month of July. However, his hand injury saps his power.
12)Philly fans start becoming very vocal about Brown’s inadequacies. The call for him to be traded for Hunter Pence or Carlos Beltran. Brown is very well-cooked and ready to eat after this Philly roasting.
13) Brown is sent down to make room for Hunter Pence. He is mentally and physically drained after points 1-12. He is supposed to learn a new position. He struggles mightily.
Is Brown as bad as he is playing right now? No, there is too much of a body of work here. He is not this bad. Can he be your leftifielder, even in a platoon, next year? Unless he can get going at the end of this year, no. I would make a low-level acquisition like Lance Nix to platoon with Mayberry. When Brown gets going again in triple A, you could trade Nix to make room for him. Is all hope lost with Brown? Of course not. Remember, it was not that long ago that he hit .200 in the GCL. Expectations need to be lowered.
When all is said and done, I think the biggest problem with Brown is his outfield play. I think that he has learned his lesson about hustling and will also be more careful on the bases. His hitting is adequate with a good OBP. But the kind of rookie mistakes that he makes in the outfield are not acceptable for a team that is trying to win the World Series based primarily on great pitching. Since this team doesn’t have the leeway to let him learn to play the outfield on the job, he is going to have to learn to play the outfield in the minors, in the Instructional League or someplace other than Citizens Bank Park.
I agree with this for the most part. For better or worse, his fielding is what is going to cause Charlie to keep him out of games, so he needs to improve on that and work on some other things.
Dan makes good points about Brown really being jerked around, although none of it was ill-intended.
All of this being said, I think, between our acquisition of superstar players and some home grown Phillies players becoming instant superstars (Utley, Howard), we have gotten a little spoiled and impatient with young players. It’s going to take Dom Brown several years before he hits on all cylinders and, while we wait, it will look ugly at times. But that’s not that far out of the norm.
“For better or worse, his fielding is what is going to cause Charlie to keep him out of games”
This is the same manager that played Pat Burrell and Raul Ibanez in left for the past six years. If Charlie doesn’t play Dom for defensive reasons, it will be a complete hypocrisy.
I don’t think people are really appreciating how dominant Aumont has been in AAA. A 2.95 ERA despite a .419 BABIP. He’s posting 14.24 k/9 vs 4.91 bb/9 (only 4 bbs in his past 8.2 IP) and a sick 1.84 FIP.
Yes, though his BB rate could use some work. Love that K rate, and obviously that will help him get out of some jams, but it’s not easy to thrive in the majors walking over 4 batters every 9 innings.
Honestly, if Brown was showing any kind of energy in AAA – such as hitting above .250, not playing horrific defense – would he be the subject of such ire at this point?
It would’ve been nice if he performed in LHV the same way Mayberry did when he was demoted.
Love the discussion. At the end of the day there are plenty of players that had the talent to be MLB caliber players. For whatever reason they were either A. Never given the opportunity B. Never able to hold onto or seize their opportunity.
Francisco as an example, had the talent and started off well but fizzled. Werth minus this season made the most of the opportunity he was given and never looked back. The league adjusts to you so fast. You better be able to figure out how to counter punch or before you know it your cup of coffee is gone.
Reigning No.1 – OF – Domonic Brown (LHV-9/13/87) – (.248) 0 for 4 with a K
Current Mid-season Top 30
3. C – Sebastian Valle (CLW-7/24/90) – (.290) – 0 for 5 with 3 K’s
8. SS – Freddy Galvis (LHV-11/14/89) – (.318) –2 for 3 with 2 RBI (6)
11. RHP – Phillippe Aumont (LHV-1/7/89) – (0-0, 2.95) – 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 2 K
12. OF – Jiwan James (CLW-4/11/89) – (.271) – 1 for 5, SB (24)
13. RHP – Michael Schwimer (PHI-2/19/86) – (0-0, 3.00) 3 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 0 BB, 4 K
16. 3B – Harold Martinez (WIL-5/31/90) – (.254) – 0 for 3 with a BB
22. 3B – Carlos Rivero (REA-5/20/88) –(.288) 1 for 3 with a HR (15), 2 RBI (62)
23. 1B – Matt Rizzotti (REA/12/24/85)– (.285) – 0 for 3 with a K
24. RHP – David Buchanan (CLW-5/11/89) – (2-1, 3.09) – 6 IP, 7 H, 1 R, 1 ER, BB, 5 K (win)
25. OF – Kyrell Hudson (WIL-16/6/90) – (.284) – 1 for 4 with a CS (9)
26. OF – Aaron Altherr (WIL-1/14/91) – (.274) – o for 4
28. 2B – Cesar Hernandez (CLW-5/23/90) – (.255) – 3 for 4 with a 3B (3), run, 2 RBI (35)
29. 2B– Cody Asche (WIL-6/20/90) – (.196) 1 for 3 with an RBI (17)
30. OF – Derrick Mitchell (REA-1/5/87)- (.269) – 0 for 3
Other names of interest
1B – Cody Overbeck (LHV-6/5/86) – (.242) – 1 for 4 with 2 K’s
3B – Travis Mattair (CLW-12/21/88) – (.222) 2 for 5 with a 2B (8), run, RBI (26), K
RHP – Tyler Cloyd (REA-5/16/87) – (5-3, 2.90) – 7 IP, 4 H, 0 R, BB, 10 K (win)
RHP – Justin Friend (REA-6/21/86) – (1-3, 2.63) – 1.1 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 BB, K (save)
RHP – Eric Pettis (CLW-6/9/88) – (2-2, 3.33) – 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 2 K
RHP – Juan Sosa (CLW-10/11/89) – (1-0, 3.38) – 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, K
RHP – Mike Nesseth (WIL-4/19/88) – (3-4, 2.47) 5 IP, 5 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 0 Bb, 2 K (loss)
RHP – Colton Murray (WIL-4/22/90) – (0-2, 2.91) 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 0 K
Pay the money and trade Lidge to Houston and make room for a Aumont and/or Schwim
Lidge saves his dignity. Ed gets a free player for the promise not to trade him. It is a shame but Lidge is cooked.
If you are serious I’d say that is over reacting to a series that meant nothing. The Sept. call up is just around the corner they can wait for that to add arms in the bullpen. Added arms can stablize innings on those that have to much work and make sure they are all fresh for the Oct. Run.
Come playoffs I doubt Lidge is on the 25 man roster. Your big 4 provided they are healthy are going to give you 7+ Innings. On the backend of games you’ll see Stutes/Bastardo/Madson and should you need to go beyond the 9th in the playoffs Worley/Kendrick/Herndon will be the guys.
Lidge brings valued experience just being out there with the young guys. I have to think you want him in the pen even if he’s not on the roster.
He’s had 2 bad games after not pitching in Spring Training and for the first half of the year… Lets get rid of him… Forget about the fact he was dominant last year with sub par stuff.
Friend keeps being a pleasant surprise this year, he gotta be pushing close to 30 saves between CLW and REA. Hopefully he’ll get a chance with the Pigs next year.
Without his fastball Lidge is not an asset. Just a thought though.
I am ready for Thome certainly in September.
Question if Thome comes in September would he be able to play in the postseason if
someone gets “HURT”?
Seems as though Thome will get claimed by another playoff-bound team before the Phils get a chance to do so, especially as his salary is reasonable (3 million for the year, pro-rated, and free agent in 2012).
I believe that he has to be on the roster before September 1st to qualify for the postseason. If this is correct, they have about ten days to get it done.
Just Read on CSN.philly that Kelly Dugan will sit the rest of the year with a stress fracture in his back. Has been playing with it for two weeks now. Lamar states that he will start next year in Lakewood though.
USA Reports: Joe Blanton (elbow) threw off a mound Monday and felt good. Blanton is currently working his way back from a mysterious elbow injury that was still causing him some pain as recently as last week. He still hopes to return as a reliever next month, but like teammate Jose Contreras, whatever the Phillies get at this point would be a bonus.
I agree, they must really like this kid to sign him for 750k. If it is hard to judge an 18 yo high school kid, it must be just that much harder to judge a 16 yo Ven. Kid. As noted in the article, it is good to “replace” Santana. Hopefully he ends up being even better. So does a 16 yo stay and play in Ven. For a couple of years? I am assuming he is too young to come to the US?
Phuture Phillies 
It’s good to see Mattair end his slump today. He had a multi-hit game today, with a double and a single. He had alot of multi-hit games in July,but has been ice cold in August. Hopefully he finishes the season strong-preferably with a few more multi-hit gemes.
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Rivero with 15 homeruns.
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Why hasn’t Tyler Cloyd been promoted to Lehigh Valley yet?
Yeesh.
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I think at this point, it’s less about promoting guys, and trying to keep teams together for their respective playoff runs.
There becomes a time in the season (like the last two weeks), where player development (the technical aspect of it anyway) becomes secondary to winning, which of course helps players develop in other ways.
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Reading playoffs ???
I prefer having a prospect see what he is up against at the next level.
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I can see that argument, but for two weeks, what would you rather have?
1) See what a guy can do at LHV for 2 weeks at the end of the season
2) Experience a playoff race which is instrumental in playing for a winning franchise. Playing to a higher level of competition is great, but so is finding out what intangibles these guys have (i.e. do certain guys handle pressure better than others down the stretch)
This argument of course is somewhat mitigated by the fact that LHV is in a race of their own, so they may be able to achieve the same results there.
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What is the rush to advance yet another starting pitcher? We currently have six; if Blanton comes back, seven, so why rush Cloyd along?
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It’s not like Cloyd would find himself on the 25 man roster in any scenario. It’s about his development, not trying to see if he can pitch in the majors now.
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Ditto Handzus……….Cloyd isn’t getting any younger. A couple of apperances could strengthen his confidence going into the off-season.
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What to make of Lavin? Has put up solid numbers in the GCL and NY Penn league. A little old for both. Maybe another Ruf or Mitchell?
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Lavin, along with other college signees, has performed as well as could be expected… even better for a few of them. It is positive to see draftees get to Lakewood before their first pro summer is over. These are the players that will fill the rosters throughout the different levels of the minors; keeping the number of retreads to a minimum. They aren’t always the “sexy” picks or elite prospects, but they can provide quality depth throughout the system; from Philly downward.
The names of Lavin, Duke, Alonso, Morgan, Wright, Stumpo, etc. may not be the most age appropriate, but they have done everything asked of them to this point. The next levels of challenges have to come from management. In essence, these aren’t the flashy picks, they seem to be positive ones nonetheless.
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Valle sure is in a slump right now. I guess his lack of patience is starting to hurt him.
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This is his history. He goes on tears that make everyone stand up and take notice; then he disappears in the line-up. It has happened every year and in Mexico during the winter. That is why contributors on this site have cited his plate discipline. He is basically a player with good eye-hand coordination and power. He has improved greatly as a defensive catcher and as a handler of the pitching staff. Pitchers, as he goes up to the top levels, will take advantage of poor plate discipline and make him suffer until he becomes more selective about what he chooses to swing at. If you think of Ruiz when he first came to the majors, he was similar with many strike outs and grounding into double plays. It was only last year that Ruiz developed a better plate discipline.
Hopefully, Valle will learn plate discipline before he gets to the big leagues.
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He could also be hitting a fatigue wall. Not too worried about him. I would not mind him DH’ing a little in the last couple of weeks of the year.
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Mattair’s bat resuscitated for today. Buchanan had a strong start.
Rivero homers. Holy batman Tyler Cloyd. I know he’s 24 and still at AA but he’s having quite the year.
Two hits and a sacrifice for Galvis. Another solid appearance for Aumont. His K rate in AAA so far is absurd.
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Cloyd seems close enough that age should not be a factor. Can’t get over his lack of BBs against a goodly number of Ks. Seems like he’s come “out of nowhere.” Maybe another “find” by their scouts’ good evaluation(s). LV ’12.
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On the contrary, Cloyd has always been there, but has suffered in comparison with his contemporaries from his fast ball. His BB/K ratio in Lakewood was outstanding, similar to what you see now. To work on developing starting pitchers with better velocity, the Phillies put Cloyd in the bullpen. He hit a real trough in Clearwater where he couldn’t find the plate. He seemed to get his bearings in the second half and was promoted to Reading to end the year. They put him back in Clearwater to start this year, but then moved him to Reading when it was obvious that he could help there.
He needs the control and command to succeed. He seems to have become equally good at short bullpen stints and longer ones as a starter, which he always was. He is a guy who has become an excellent pitcher. He can succeed in the major leagues. I think this has become obvious to the Phillies. I’m sure you will see Cloyd (excellent control and command) and Hyatt (same velocity niche, but with a major league change-up) in LHV next year and maybe with the Phillies or another major league club the following year. In my opinion Cloyd is for real.
Isn’t it a treat to have such outstanding pitching talent in the system. We have all the starting pitcher classes inside the system from May, Pettibone and Colvin to Hyatt, Rodriguez and Cloyd. And they are not that far away.
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I think Cloyd has earned his way back into the top 30 with his performance this year. 126 Ks and 21 BBs total this season.
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Dom Brown…? Is he really going to be the starting LF next year?!
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I am sure he will have to earn it. I think he will.
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And if not, John Mayberry’s been solid.
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You mean the guy with a .397 OBP in AAA and had a surgery on his wrist early this season? Yes.
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Anon – I agree, people who are discounting brown aren’t being rational… that said, It’s really not his offense that worries me… He had a 750 ops in his time w/ the phillies… more then enough for a rookie outfielder… the real worry for me was the defense. As to his time at AAA, disappointing, i would have preferred he hit .350 w/ a .450 obp and a .550 slugging, but hey, he’s walking a ton which is great and I was never really worried about his hitting skill.
What I don’t get is how no one noticed his lack of defense prior to this year. It looked like more then just a little problem… could be small sample size, but either way, concerning.
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The same one that can’t catch a cold in either corner OF? Don’t even give him a glove at this point, just let him pick the sucker up when it stops rolling and throw it into the infield…. to the wrong base of course.
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That’s clever, think that up all by yourself or did you have help?
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Hurt your feelings or something?
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Read today were Chuck LaMar wants him to ‘just get away from it all’ this off-season.
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Platoon with Mayberry is my guess. That’s a 2 headed monster who, if one player, would probably be an all-star.
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I don’t think Dom brown will start next year. John mayberry been solid and helpful all year. But If Dom brown starts getting his swing back like he used to. The phiiles will then have a hard choice between those 2
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Dom really stunk up the place at CBP this season. Though I do recognize that many scouts/pundits/commentators last year labeled him as the #1 Phils prospect and perhaps among the top 3 or 4 in the minors, the results here and now at LV have been “disappointing.”
He did well there before coming up to the bigs but in his MLB trial holes were found in his swing and he has yet to recover. He believe he needs to adjust his swing to be shorter and start not so far away from the strike zone. He also has to learn to tighten his outfield tracking and his loosey- goosey swipes at the ground ball in defense.
He represents all kinds of possibilities with his athleticism and what I believe is his untapped talent. Hope he makes those adjustments; if necessary in another season at LV. I’d look forward to an “adjusted” Dom.
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“Stunk up the place” with a 100 OPS+. We sure have high standards around here.
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His offense was fine… he didn’t “stink”… his defense as a whole sucked but as a whole player, he wasn’t horrible and if you discount for the bad d, i’d give him above average.
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There’s a segment of the readership here who assigns a negative value to BB. BB are unmanly, you see. At least for middle of the lineup players. If you go by that philosophy, his hitting was pretty disappointing I guess. Of course it’s a crazy philosophy, but if you start with crazy assumptions, crazy conclusions can follow.
Absent a career ending injury, the chance that Mayberry has more career value than Brown is zero. Heck, I’d say Mayberry has a less that 1% chance of having as much as 20% of the career value of Brown. And I LIKE Mayberry. As a 4th outfielder
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Mr Larrym….when it comes to BBs and their importance….do you do assign more of a value on the BBs to the lead-off hitter, number 2 batter and the 7th and 8th batter (NL) in the lineups versus the 3-4-5-6 hole hitters? or doesn’t it matter?
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Basically the same
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When Charlie had Dom hit 2nd on the day they got Pence, he was sending Dom a message that his hitting was not the problem…
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Why does it have to be one or the other? They should platoon the two of them together until one wins the job. It’s a win-win.
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That should read “I believe…” etc. Not “He believe..”Sorry.
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Brown’s plate discipline took a big step forward this season. Offensively he’s fine. Mayberry hitting the upper level of his projection hit .269 so far this season. He could easily take a step back. I think you could look at a platoon in LF next year with Mayberry taking some starts against some lefties.
Defensively, I think the Phillies moving Brown to LF so early says something. Brown has struggled but I think some of that is due to learning the different hook the ball takes on that side. Dom only played 8 games in LF before this year. Brown does have a very good arm out there at least. I think he’ll be average there, and it’s not like the Phils have a history of exceptional fielders in left.
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I think it says “we have Hunter Pence for at least 2 more years.” I don’t think they had any intention of moving him to LF otherwise. RF and LF have the same positional demands when it comes to range and such. The only difference is that RFs are expected to have a bigger arm.
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That should of been fixed years ago. He obviously is behind the defensive curve. Blame that on the system not the player.
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huh, are you saying that every bad defensive player is the result of bad coaching? I’m guessing that the Rizz is really a GG caliber SS if they would just coach him up right.
Not sure the new alias is working..
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no i think what he was saying is that Dom obviously has the athleticism to play the position well. However, the the things that he does poorly are in areas where coaching and repetition will help. I personally dont think its a coaches or anyones fault, i think that as he came up they were more focused on his hitting skills developing and figured he could rely on his natural ability until he needed to learn. Because he flew through the upper minors, he didnt get the time to work with the coachs and gain repetition in gauging ball flights, route running, positioning himself behind the ball, and even the quick mental decisions on where to throw. I think as he works on this, he could very well become a well above average defender.
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I’m not sure what to make of mayberry… sure looks a lot like another jason werth / shane victorino, even though i’m hestitant to say that since Werth is sucking this year, and a player coming out of obscurity like that is very uncommon.
you’re absolutely right though, odds favor regression… but it’s not impossible that he’s the player he was drafted to be… if Jose Bautista can pull the shit he did (fringe to top 5 at position), obviously it can be done, it’s just not all that likely…
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In Mayberry, I see a guy with growing confidence, who believes in himself, and is ready to move to higher levels of performance. I believe he will be a major component of our offense next year, batting 6th.
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In March I referenced Maybery and Werth in the same statement and on of the more out-spoken readers on here immediately lambasted me for such a ridiculous comparison—his claim, Werth’s earlier stats from his younger years before the wrist injury, were much better then anything Mayberry ever could put up—of course Mayberry was a college guy and Werth came up from HS and arrived to the MLB a little earlier age-wise.
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I think I was probably that “outspoken reader” that lambasted you (although I dont remember for sure). And I still stand by my statement. Mayberry is a good 4th OF. I still doubt he is ever half the player Jayson Werth was. Let me know when Mayberry hits 30 HRs or even starts on a World Series team. One thing Jayson Werth always provided was good ABs and a high OBP, 2 things that Mayberry is still lacking in.
Not trying to be a Mayberry basher. I really like him and think he has really stepped up this year. I just dont think he is, has ever been, or ever will be the caliber of baseball player that Jayson Werth is….
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Amen. I think people forget that this is the same John Mayberry that hit .194 in May and was in the minors all of June. It will be interesting to see if there’s still all this love when he goes through his next slump.
Reminds me of the Derrick Mitchell for 4th OF craziness that was going on earlier in the year. Once his hot streak ended people forgot about him. Funny how a good month can turn you into the next All-Star or super prospect. Remember that Jayson Werth had multiple wrist injuries which is why he was a late bloomer, NOT a career minor-leaguer, AAAA guy like Mayberry.
But hey, if he does turn out to be that good, I’ll eat my crow and love it because he’ll be doing it with the Phillies.
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I still think Mitchell has a chance to be a 4th OF. He needs more consistency and better plate discipline. So he at least has a chance. It’s nice to see him put it together sometimes because he has a lot of athletic ability.
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You’re right of course.
Let’s tease apart a couple issues. One of course is sample size. True, you could once have made the same argument about Werth. But here’s the thing – MOST players who perform substantially above prior performance (adjusted for age curves)will regress. It’s hard to predict in advance who will be the exeptions. Mayberry COULD be one – he could duplicate his current numbers over a full season or course of seasons. But the chances are low.
But of course the second issue is BB, and it’s why the comparison is not just premature but absurd. Werth’s career BB rate is almost double Mayberry’s.
Finally, Werth had some signficant injury issues in his pre-Phillie career. If you look at players who break out in their mid 20s with surprising performances, often there is an injury history which depressed prior perfromance. Or a guy who mashed in the minors but for whatever reason didn’t get a fair chance in the majors. Mayberry doesn’t really fit this pattern.
Look, I like him, and am prepared to believe that a portion of what we are seeing is “real.” But the Phillies would be foolish – foolish – to install him as a regular next year. Especially with Brown waiting in the wings.
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Mayberry may not be the next Jayson Werth but he has a chance of blossoming into a player like Nat’s Mike Morse.
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I love how people are overreacting to Domonic Brown struggling… 3 things:
1) He was rushed to the MLB, then subsequently benched and lost a signifigant amount of development time last year.
2) He had hand surgery. I remember Chase couldn’t drive the ball last year when he came back… and he’s one of the top 10 hitters in the game, why would you expect anything more from a rookie who still doesn’t know his swing.
3) He’s shown great plate dicipline, something that desperatly needed in our line up.
Look at Freddie Freeman in Atlanta, he struggled to start the year and now is one of the better hitters in the game since he got comfortable in the Major Leagues, well on his way to a rookie of the year award. Jason Heyward is struggling, and I think we can all agree he’s a better prospect than Domonic Brown.
Should you be concerned? A little bit… but there’s no reason to give up on him.
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In evaluating Brown, his 2010 season in the majors should be disregarded. He was all right until Victorino came off the DL. Then, Brown was benched and essentially limited to PH duties.
In 2011, given the hamate injury, his rookie status and his plate discipline, Brown’s performance at the plate was satisfactory.
My disappointment with Brown is his defense. He is clueless and plays as though he is new to the sport.
I would start 2012 with the assumption that Brown and Mayberry will platoon in LF. Mayberry can also be late-inning defensive replacement for Brown. The competition will be good for the players and the team.
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Ding Ding Ding, I second this. They should each get 320 AB’s
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Ditto that.
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I would love to see this happen. Domonic held his own in the Majors this year and I think a combination of Mayberry and Brown would be a good combo in the 6th or 7th spot in the line up.
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The way I see Brown is like this:
1) 2010, he’s starting out in Reading. Think about that. To most people, he’s completely unknown. He’s some 22 year old kid in the minors.
2) He does great. He gets promoted to Lehigh Valley. He does great.
3) Vic gets hurt and Brown gets a callup. I think he was impressive until Vic returned. Remember, he started the year in Reading and now he’s in a pennant race playing in front of 40,000 people in a big city that is one of the toughest places to play in.
4) The front office decides to keep Brown on the bench when Vic returns. Brown has power and speed, and these attributes could round out the Phillies bench.
5) Brown has never had this role before. He has to be ready to face major league pitching after a long period of not playing. Very difficult. He has never faced major league pitching. He started the year out at Reading. He develops all kinds of bad habits and he strikes out a lot even though he is capable of making a lot of contact. This sample is not representative because he was coming off the bench.
6) Because of Brown’s status as one of the best prospects in baseball and the fanfare with which he was introduced by the media, Brown draws a lot of attention. His struggles coming off the bech are scrutinized, particularly because he is seen as the succesor to Jayson Werth. Philly begins to panic and Brown gets a Philly-style baptism by fire. Again, he started out 2010 making his Reading debut.
7) The front office decide to make up for the time Brown lost while on the bench by sending him to winter ball. Unfortunately, Brown is so rusty from not having been playing and he has acquired such bad habits from being on the bench that he’s awful and he gets sent home. Panic in Philly goes up and the baptism by fire continues, with people wondering whether Brown is yet another Phillies bust.
8) Brown, immediately after leaving winter ball, begins to workout in Clearwater. He wants to get ready for the competition for the rightfield spot that will ensue in 2011. 2010 was the longest season of his life, since the minor league season is shorter than the major league one.
9) Finally spring training has arrived. Greg Gross asks Brown to lower his hands. Brown has a hard time with this adjustment and struggles for 15 at-bats. When he does get his first hit, he breaks his hamate bone.
10) Brown catches fire when he returns from the DL. He hit 2 homeruns in a game in Clearwater and continued to hit well over .300 in triple A. With Fransisco struggling, Brown takes over and platoon with Fransisco in rightfield. He begins to experience the pressure and excitement of being in a pennant race in front of the tough Philly fans.
11) Brown shows flashes of brilliance in his rookie season, hitting 2 long homers in one game as well as other highlights. But he is raw. He makes mistakes like not hustling, missing bases and failing to go after balls he could catch. He endures a prolonged slump, but recovers to hit .300 for the month of July. However, his hand injury saps his power.
12)Philly fans start becoming very vocal about Brown’s inadequacies. The call for him to be traded for Hunter Pence or Carlos Beltran. Brown is very well-cooked and ready to eat after this Philly roasting.
13) Brown is sent down to make room for Hunter Pence. He is mentally and physically drained after points 1-12. He is supposed to learn a new position. He struggles mightily.
Is Brown as bad as he is playing right now? No, there is too much of a body of work here. He is not this bad. Can he be your leftifielder, even in a platoon, next year? Unless he can get going at the end of this year, no. I would make a low-level acquisition like Lance Nix to platoon with Mayberry. When Brown gets going again in triple A, you could trade Nix to make room for him. Is all hope lost with Brown? Of course not. Remember, it was not that long ago that he hit .200 in the GCL. Expectations need to be lowered.
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When all is said and done, I think the biggest problem with Brown is his outfield play. I think that he has learned his lesson about hustling and will also be more careful on the bases. His hitting is adequate with a good OBP. But the kind of rookie mistakes that he makes in the outfield are not acceptable for a team that is trying to win the World Series based primarily on great pitching. Since this team doesn’t have the leeway to let him learn to play the outfield on the job, he is going to have to learn to play the outfield in the minors, in the Instructional League or someplace other than Citizens Bank Park.
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I agree with this for the most part. For better or worse, his fielding is what is going to cause Charlie to keep him out of games, so he needs to improve on that and work on some other things.
Dan makes good points about Brown really being jerked around, although none of it was ill-intended.
All of this being said, I think, between our acquisition of superstar players and some home grown Phillies players becoming instant superstars (Utley, Howard), we have gotten a little spoiled and impatient with young players. It’s going to take Dom Brown several years before he hits on all cylinders and, while we wait, it will look ugly at times. But that’s not that far out of the norm.
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Even Utley wasn’t that good in his first 400 ABs. People forget though. Everybody is expecting instant results and it’s just not realistic.
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He’s the comparison I always use. I also like the Carlos Gonzales for the Rockies who Domonic reminds me of.
Cargo’s first year (85 games): .242/.273/.361
D.Brown (89 Career Games): .237/.315/.384
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“For better or worse, his fielding is what is going to cause Charlie to keep him out of games”
This is the same manager that played Pat Burrell and Raul Ibanez in left for the past six years. If Charlie doesn’t play Dom for defensive reasons, it will be a complete hypocrisy.
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Left field will suit him well.
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You are all welcome to join me on the Tyler Cloyd bandwagon.
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I don’t think people are really appreciating how dominant Aumont has been in AAA. A 2.95 ERA despite a .419 BABIP. He’s posting 14.24 k/9 vs 4.91 bb/9 (only 4 bbs in his past 8.2 IP) and a sick 1.84 FIP.
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Its a really nice year from him. Something to get excited about.
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Yes, though his BB rate could use some work. Love that K rate, and obviously that will help him get out of some jams, but it’s not easy to thrive in the majors walking over 4 batters every 9 innings.
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Honestly, if Brown was showing any kind of energy in AAA – such as hitting above .250, not playing horrific defense – would he be the subject of such ire at this point?
It would’ve been nice if he performed in LHV the same way Mayberry did when he was demoted.
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If I recall, Mayberry hit poorly when he went down initially. His numbers from LHV aren’t exactly electric: .265/.287/.442/.729
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Mayberry wasn’t very good either when he was sent down.
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Love the discussion. At the end of the day there are plenty of players that had the talent to be MLB caliber players. For whatever reason they were either A. Never given the opportunity B. Never able to hold onto or seize their opportunity.
Francisco as an example, had the talent and started off well but fizzled. Werth minus this season made the most of the opportunity he was given and never looked back. The league adjusts to you so fast. You better be able to figure out how to counter punch or before you know it your cup of coffee is gone.
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Sorry for delay…
Reigning No.1 – OF – Domonic Brown (LHV-9/13/87) – (.248) 0 for 4 with a K
Current Mid-season Top 30
3. C – Sebastian Valle (CLW-7/24/90) – (.290) – 0 for 5 with 3 K’s
8. SS – Freddy Galvis (LHV-11/14/89) – (.318) –2 for 3 with 2 RBI (6)
11. RHP – Phillippe Aumont (LHV-1/7/89) – (0-0, 2.95) – 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 2 K
12. OF – Jiwan James (CLW-4/11/89) – (.271) – 1 for 5, SB (24)
13. RHP – Michael Schwimer (PHI-2/19/86) – (0-0, 3.00) 3 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 0 BB, 4 K
16. 3B – Harold Martinez (WIL-5/31/90) – (.254) – 0 for 3 with a BB
22. 3B – Carlos Rivero (REA-5/20/88) –(.288) 1 for 3 with a HR (15), 2 RBI (62)
23. 1B – Matt Rizzotti (REA/12/24/85)– (.285) – 0 for 3 with a K
24. RHP – David Buchanan (CLW-5/11/89) – (2-1, 3.09) – 6 IP, 7 H, 1 R, 1 ER, BB, 5 K (win)
25. OF – Kyrell Hudson (WIL-16/6/90) – (.284) – 1 for 4 with a CS (9)
26. OF – Aaron Altherr (WIL-1/14/91) – (.274) – o for 4
28. 2B – Cesar Hernandez (CLW-5/23/90) – (.255) – 3 for 4 with a 3B (3), run, 2 RBI (35)
29. 2B– Cody Asche (WIL-6/20/90) – (.196) 1 for 3 with an RBI (17)
30. OF – Derrick Mitchell (REA-1/5/87)- (.269) – 0 for 3
Other names of interest
1B – Cody Overbeck (LHV-6/5/86) – (.242) – 1 for 4 with 2 K’s
3B – Travis Mattair (CLW-12/21/88) – (.222) 2 for 5 with a 2B (8), run, RBI (26), K
RHP – Tyler Cloyd (REA-5/16/87) – (5-3, 2.90) – 7 IP, 4 H, 0 R, BB, 10 K (win)
RHP – Justin Friend (REA-6/21/86) – (1-3, 2.63) – 1.1 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 BB, K (save)
RHP – Eric Pettis (CLW-6/9/88) – (2-2, 3.33) – 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 2 K
RHP – Juan Sosa (CLW-10/11/89) – (1-0, 3.38) – 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, K
RHP – Mike Nesseth (WIL-4/19/88) – (3-4, 2.47) 5 IP, 5 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 0 Bb, 2 K (loss)
RHP – Colton Murray (WIL-4/22/90) – (0-2, 2.91) 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 0 K
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Pay the money and trade Lidge to Houston and make room for a Aumont and/or Schwim
Lidge saves his dignity. Ed gets a free player for the promise not to trade him. It is a shame but Lidge is cooked.
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If you are serious I’d say that is over reacting to a series that meant nothing. The Sept. call up is just around the corner they can wait for that to add arms in the bullpen. Added arms can stablize innings on those that have to much work and make sure they are all fresh for the Oct. Run.
Come playoffs I doubt Lidge is on the 25 man roster. Your big 4 provided they are healthy are going to give you 7+ Innings. On the backend of games you’ll see Stutes/Bastardo/Madson and should you need to go beyond the 9th in the playoffs Worley/Kendrick/Herndon will be the guys.
Lidge brings valued experience just being out there with the young guys. I have to think you want him in the pen even if he’s not on the roster.
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He only has a little over 2 months left anyway—including playoffs.
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He’s had 2 bad games after not pitching in Spring Training and for the first half of the year… Lets get rid of him… Forget about the fact he was dominant last year with sub par stuff.
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Oh baby you, you got what I need.
But you say he’s Justin Friend.
You say he’s Justin Friend.
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i wish there was a “like” button for your comment
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Friend keeps being a pleasant surprise this year, he gotta be pushing close to 30 saves between CLW and REA. Hopefully he’ll get a chance with the Pigs next year.
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Without his fastball Lidge is not an asset. Just a thought though.
I am ready for Thome certainly in September.
Question if Thome comes in September would he be able to play in the postseason if
someone gets “HURT”?
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Seems as though Thome will get claimed by another playoff-bound team before the Phils get a chance to do so, especially as his salary is reasonable (3 million for the year, pro-rated, and free agent in 2012).
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Thome can become a free agent if he wishes because of his No Trade.
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When was the last time anybody did that? They would have to forfeit the remainder of their contract.
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He only has $500,000 remaining on his contract for this season. He has mad $138,000,000 in his career.
I would say theres a definitely a chance he would do it
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The union won’t be too happy with that. And if that’s a loophole to be a FA by forfeiting your contract, why don’t more players do it?
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That is why I asked about sept.. no waivers needed
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I think he’s a pretty good weapon for a right handed hitter in the post season.
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I believe that he has to be on the roster before September 1st to qualify for the postseason. If this is correct, they have about ten days to get it done.
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Nine more HRs and he passes the great Sammy Sosa.
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Just Read on CSN.philly that Kelly Dugan will sit the rest of the year with a stress fracture in his back. Has been playing with it for two weeks now. Lamar states that he will start next year in Lakewood though.
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USA Reports: Joe Blanton (elbow) threw off a mound Monday and felt good. Blanton is currently working his way back from a mysterious elbow injury that was still causing him some pain as recently as last week. He still hopes to return as a reliever next month, but like teammate Jose Contreras, whatever the Phillies get at this point would be a bonus.
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Phillies on the verge of signing top Venezuelan prospect.
http://www.csnphilly.com/08/22/11/Phillies-expected-to-sign-top-Venezuelan/news_phillies.html?blockID=552522&feedID=704
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This is really encouraging, especially after a nice draft haul!
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This kid must be legit… That’s double what they normally spend
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I agree, they must really like this kid to sign him for 750k. If it is hard to judge an 18 yo high school kid, it must be just that much harder to judge a 16 yo Ven. Kid. As noted in the article, it is good to “replace” Santana. Hopefully he ends up being even better. So does a 16 yo stay and play in Ven. For a couple of years? I am assuming he is too young to come to the US?
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