General Discussion Week of 8-27-2012

Weekly Discussion

Yeah, it’s already 8-29, but here’s the 8-27 weekly discussion.  Better than last week by a day, I think.

222 thoughts on “General Discussion Week of 8-27-2012”

  1. Good to see Cloyd get a chance. I would like to see Worley shut down and find a way to give Ruf a look in September.

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  2. Was at the game last night and some thoughts:
    – Brown works counts and had to sharp line drives but they were right at OF but a little left or right and they would be doubles
    – Utley looks really good and he may no longer be a superstar but if he starts the season healthy he could be an all-star
    – Nix is not terrible and might be a better RF/LF platoon player than Schierholtz
    – Bastardo is rapidly becoming a LOOGY and that isn’t good
    – Rosenberg is suffering from the same problem as Mathieson, throws hard but people just square it up
    – Lindblom is nibbling at the edges, also his curveball does not look good but those could have been horrendous sliders
    – Charlie Manual is terrible strategically, after spending the Nats series managing the bullpen well, he had Papelbon warmed up in the 8th and didn’t bring him in after Bastardo got the lefties out
    – Kratz is strong armed but his receiving is below average, either that or Chooch is so elite at blocking that pitch in the dirt that it makes others look bad, should make a nice back up / RH bench bat next year
    – Frandsen just looks unsustainable, he does not crush the ball and it just looks like they will find gloves eventually, nice story though

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    1. Chooch is elite at blocking pitches in the dirt. One of the best in baseball.

      Of course Kratz could still be not very good at it.

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    2. I agree with most of what you said here.

      Rosenberg needs to have better control. His 95 fastball has no movement. He threw it right down the middle to Shoppach who promptly crushed it. He hung that breaking ball to Ike Davis in the middle of the plate too.

      What I disagree with was using Papelbon in the 8th. It’s not something that Manuel should be doing too often, and thankfully, he doesn’t. If there’s one thing I’m happy about, it’s that Manuel doesn’t overwork their pitchers like Dusty Baker. I think Papelbon was already used in the 8th inning last week. And he was coming off 2 days of rest for pitching in 3 straight games. No way Papelbon was pitching in the 8th yesterday.

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  3. Was not at the game but caught part of it on tv.
    – Brown should have had an assist in the first inning, but Kratz dropped the ball.
    – Bastardo was a a victim of the positioning of Brown on the Shoppach double that tied the game. If Brown had shaded Shoppach to pull, he might have caught the ball, or at least cut it off and prevented Wright from scoring.
    -On the Shoppach double, it looked like Brown was running in quicksand. Both the Phillies and the Mets announcers commented on it. Knee problems flaring up?
    -A few weeks ago two of the Phillies pitchers had their first wild pitches of the year with Kratz catching. I think that Chooch is clearly exceptional in his blocking skills.
    -Charlie seems to waffle back and forth as to whether Bastardo should face righties. I’ll bet next time, he won’t. leave him in.
    -Rosenberg’s problem isn’t that the fastball is straight, but that he does not locate his pitches well. He got hammered on a fastball down the middle, belt high and on a hanging breaking ball. A 95 mile an hour pitch in the nitro zone is just going to fly out of the park that much faster.
    -Utley is hitting home runs at the same rate he did in his prime. However, his BA is down and his OBP is down some.
    -Howard is homering at a similar pace to his last two seasons.
    -Phillies have a bad habit of shutting off the offense in the middle and late innings. It doesn’t work that well with this pitching staff and bullpen and this defense.

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    1. Brown isn’t in the lineup for tonight’s game. Still not sure if it is a typical day off or an injury.

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      2. As much as there are concerns about Brown in terms of power and fielding and maybe batting average, looking back over the last few years his biggest problem could be staying on the field. It will be hard to hand him a position if he continues to miss so many games.

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      4. brown was removed for juan pierre last in yesterday’s game because of his knee. probably still bothering him.

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    2. On your Bastardo point, if they are not playing him to pull then Bastardo made a bad mistake and he is becoming a LOOGY very quickly as Matt mentioned.

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  4. At the risk of angering the Jimmy Rollins Fan Base here on pp, does anyone else agree how absolutely insane it is that our 5’8″, 165 lb leadoff hitter is now being defended by the Barry Bonds / Jim Thome / Ryan Howard shift with 3 infielders on the right side of the infield? Maybe what’s more insane is the fact that with that defense, he didn’t even appear to try and slap a ball to LF for a base hit? Even when leading off an inning?

    Now let me also say, I think Jimmy will go down as the greatest Phillie SS of all time, one of the greatest Phillies in general of all time, and depending how the rest of his career plays out, possibly will gain HOF consideration at some point. Not to mention he was a vocal and inspirational leader to this franchise when it needed it the most and a big part of what began this run. Add on top of all of this his gold glove defense in the past, and I believe he will win the gold glove this season for how well he has played defensively.

    My problem with Jimmy is how is it that his approach or his ego or whatever it is has gotten so far out of touch with reality that a player of his type is being defended this way? And how badly has Charlie lost this team if he’s allowed it to get to this point?

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    1. He’s a switch hitter. Switch hitters, a lot of the time, are pull hitters (like Mark Texiera). Chase doesn’t bunt when they put the overshift on him either.

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        1. The idea that “fans” are sitting here opining what kind of hitter a near hall of famer with close to 2000 major league hits “should be” borders on self parody.

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          1. I’m kind of in the middle on this. If Rollins has the shift, I would prefer he bunt for a base hit. Not because he’s not a good hitter, but because I want him on the basepaths. He’s got speed, and I want him to use that speed. If they’re using the shift, you just need the bunt past the pitcher to get a “guaranteed” hit, whereas he’ll get a hit the regular way less than 1/3 of the time. I wouldn’t want Utley to bunt as much because 1) he hasn’t done it nearly as much in his career, and 2) he’s not nearly as much of a threat to steal a base (although he’s very effective at stealing). Ideally, Rollins would bunt and steal so that Utley could then knock him in.

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      2. Chase Utley’s role and Jimmy Rollins’ roles are very different on this team, and each player’s role at the plate is different from at bat to at bat, i.e., leading off, down 2 runs in the 9th inning should be a different approach, then 2 on, 2 out in the bottom of the 9th, down 3 runs.

        Interesting though how an intelligent, less selfish player like Utley is willing to take a HBP in the 8th inning just last week, steal 2nd, steal 3rd, and score a key insurance run on a sac fly. Would be nice if a guy like Rollins, who is better equiped to do things like that, would do more of it. Not all the time, but when the situation warrants.

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        1. Rollins does all of that, except for the HBP. Utley is an extreme outlier with regard to HBP, and it is absurd to hold Rollins to that standard. If Rollins is “selfish” for not taking an unusual number of HBP, then so were 99.9% of the people who have ever played the game.

          And people wonder why some of us cry racism? I’m not doing it here; I reserve that for the more extreme examples of Rollins hatred. But the constant, wholly irrational PERSONAL attacks on Rollins from Phillies fans is beyond absurd. Yes, WHOLLY irrational; there is not one shred of evidence that Rollins is a selfish or lazy player, and MASSIVE evidence to the contrary. So what do people do, convinced beyond all reason for goodness knows why that Rollins is lazy or selfish? They advance evidence so weak, so absurd – not merely bad evidence, but NO evidence. HBP? Give me a break.

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          1. Actually larrym, I’m a proud African American, so you may want to give me a free pass on the racism argument.

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        2. I still can’t believe people still love it when Utley gets hit. As fragile as he has been you would think you would want him to play it safe, lest anyone forget that John Lannan fastball a few years back.

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          1. Utley is probably my favorite Phillie ever – but of course the reality is that the value of all of those HBP was more than outweighed by that one pitch.

            Here’s a thought – did that pitch cost Utley a chance at the HOF? Seems silly to even consider it, but …

            (1) His peak is surely HOF worthy. No question – on peak, he is not just a hall of famer, but would be an upper tier hall of famer.

            (2) He got a somewhat late start for a star, and an injury aided early decline. (His skills are still elite, so IF he can somehow avoid losing half of every season to the chronic knee condition, he COULD have something of a rebound, but he’s overwhelmingly unlikely to put up HOF worthy career numbers.)

            (3) BUT an MVP would have gone at least some way towards making up for the career deficiencies. And if he hadn’t missed a month, does anyone doubt that he would have beaten Rollins out for the MVP?

            Regarding #2, on a per game basis Utley hasn’t lost much relative to league in the 3 past injury limited seasons. Not quite as high as his peak, but when he has been in the lineup, he has still been the best second baseman in the game over the past 3 years.

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            1. Here’s another thought – yes, I know the limitations of WAR, but for career comparisons it’s not bad. If Utley has 20 more career WAR – say 6 years @ 3.3 per year – he will be #10 all time on career WAR among second baseman. I would place him somewhere between 5 and 7 all time on peak value – overall, that is HOF worthy.

              Would that be enough? Probably not. No MVP (that again), and WAR probably assigns him more value than the popular perception (just look at his MVP voting totals).

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    2. Okay, in the proper thread now, so let me respond.

      People talk like hitting to one part of the field or another is a matter purely or mainly of player choice. It isn’t. I’m not saying that players have no control over that, but they have a heck of a lot less than most people think. Or at least most players do. Sure, you can “try and slap a ball to LF.” Try, and maybe succeed to some extent. And, very likely, mess up your swing and end up hitting worse in other respects. Note in this context, Rollins is a superb contact hitter; I would imagine that, if he made a conscious effort to “slap the ball the other way” his K percentage would go up. Hitting is timing, and changing your approach to try to “hit the ball to LF” will mess up your timing. If he (say) gets 5 more singles to left in a season but strikes out 20 more times, that’s a poor bargain.

      Now, NO ONE here knows for sure whether, on balance, changing his approach would help or hurt Rollins. I suspect hurt him, but NONE OF US know for sure. But what baseline assumption should we make for a borderline HOF player like Rollins? Should we assume that (a) Rollins is making a good faith judgment about his own talents and believes that changing his approach would hurt more than help, or (b) that he is an ego ridden ass that wants the team to lose, AND won’t make a change even though it would be in his own selfish interests to change.

      The former, of course, and no, this is not an issue over which reasonable people can differ. This isn’t nearly as bad as some of the Rollins hate you see here, but it’s bad enough.

      I would add that, despite some truly bizarre opinions to the contrary, Rollins has maintained his offensive skills quite well for a middle infielder getting into his mid 30s. We’ve seen before that some people around here don’t understand aging curves. It’s bad enough prospectively, where for example people defend the Howard contract because they expect (or expected him) to keep hitting like he had in his 20s, but it’s worse in retrospect where people vomit all over great players like Rollins for suffering normal age related decline (though in Rollins case, I’d argue that, for a short stop, he is actually aging quite gracefully).

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      1. Rollins is a .350 career hitter when bunting, though he doesn’t do it very often. If they play an overshift defense, why not try to put one down the line and punish them for it? He seems capable of it, and he’s still got wheels.

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        1. I haven’t seen that particular number, but let’s assume it is accurate. Presumably Rollins picks his spots, and tries to bunt for a base hit when circumstances are favorable. Bunting more often would result in bunting in less favorable circumstances, lowering the BA in such situations.

          You might respond that I don’t KNOW this to be true. But you don’t know the opposite either. What’s so irrational about these discussions – well, three things. People want to speculate about how this approach, or that approach might be better for Rollins. First of all, it’s just that, speculation, from people in a MUCH worse position to know if those changes would really work. Secondly, to leap from (a) believing that a different approach would be better for Rollins, to (b) assuming – just assuming – that Rollins doesn’t take that approach because he is lazy or selfish or stubborn, or whatever, is not just irrational, but despicable.

          Finally, Rollins is (aside from Howard to a MUCH lesser extent) the only guy on the team that gets this treatment. Other players can have declining performance – Utley, for example (and I love Utley), and no one starts blaming them for their normal age related decline – but Rollins … Rollins suffers a little age related decline (and not even that much considering league wide offensive context) and people leap to the conclusion that it is HIS fault, not just his fault but a character flaw, and not just normal age related decline.

          The one thing you can say is that he is not a classical lead off hitter. But I don’t see him making out the line up cards. Sure, he’s said he prefers to hit lead off – but he doesn’t have a gun to Manuel’s head, if Manuel wanted someone else to lead off, he would make a change. Not that I blame Manuel that much; the Phillies have lacked a classic lead off hitter for years.

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          1. It’s from Fangraphs batted ball data, which I assume is accurate. Actually, I’d sort of like to see anyone batting from the left side who’s getting overshifted try to put a bunt down the line, though it’s probably not a very good idea for Howard given his surgically reconstructed Achilles and overall lack of speed. It doesn’t require a total change of approach, just the occasional attempt to catch the defense napping. To be fair, I’ve never seen the 3B wander all the way over to SS on Rollins the way they do on Howard.

            I think Rollins gets a lot of flak because so much of his contribution comes from great defense and incredibly efficient baserunning rather than from batting .300 and driving in a bunch of runs, so it’s less easily visible.

            I don’t think he’s the only one who gets that sort of criticism, though. Werth, Victorino, Burrell, Hamels, and more good players have been attributed character flaws at various times because of how they play. The common thread is, I dunno, WIP?

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            1. “WIP.”

              Yeah, you do have a point there. With Rollins … it just seems more extreme, and more personal. More at variance with reality, I guess.

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            2. That may be true, but I do wonder if anyone has been undeservedly crucified in a more extreme way than Hamels in 2009. He literally pitched us to a WFC the year before, and had shown signs of him leaping from “very good” to “elite” among starting pitchers. Then he has a rough year which, by the way for anyone who thinks otherwise, WASN’T EVEN THAT BAD, and suddenly people were calling for him to get traded.

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      2. The first point I want to address is the “Rollins Hate”. If you read the last paragraph of what I wrote, you’ll notice that I give him a fair amount of credit for alot of great things that he has done. The issue isn’t “doing this will make him good”, it’s “doing this would make him better”. I respect your disagreement and appreciate your perspective, and I respectfully disagree.

        The metrics that you discuss on this site at length promote the idea that BABIP over time normalizes and what differentiates players is striking out less (where your “BABIP” is always .000) and walking more. The idea that shortening one’s swing and trying to put balls in play would lead to more strikeouts is an argument I’ve never heard and doesn’t make any sense. What it would lead to is less extra base hits and more singles. I’m not proposing that Jimmy Rollins adopts the style of Juan Pierre (who’s approach is valid for his physical skills) but rather adopts the style of Juan Pierre in specific situations where it makes sense for the team. Lenny Dykstra was probably the best at this that I ever saw for the Phillies. Rollins has maintained a good amount of his speed and to your point, his offensive production has not slipped much for his age and position. Because of those things, this would be a way that he could seriously improve his offensive value to the team this year and beyond.

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        1. You’re talking about something entirely different now. Shortening his swing MIGHT mean more balls in play, but that’s not exactly Rollins’ weakness. It’s not the same, at all, as “trying to hit the ball to LF.” Now, you’re right that THAT particular change of approach – shortening his swing – wouldn’t mean more Ks, it would mean less EBH. But my basic argument is the same: changes of approach, especially for a veteran player, are a tricky thing and can backfire. Neither one of us knows whether the trade off would be worth it; maybe he loses a lot of EBH for a few singles, a very poor trade off.

          Again, which should we assume: that Rollins, who obviously knows his abilities better than anyone, has made a good faith decision that a change of approach would on balance be harmful, or that he stubbornly AND STUPIDLY clings to a bad approach (stupid because IF IT REALLY HELPED THE TEAM, it would help him as well).

          The whole “hate” thing – maybe I should have been clearer, I am not lumping you in with the haters, quite. But you are making a personal attack on Rollins with no good evidence. That’s deplorable even though you are not a “hater.”

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          1. Do you know what’s More deplorable than “making an attack on Rollins with no good evidence”? Bringing up racism or calling someone a racist every single time they criticize jimmy Rollins whether there was a racist remark in their comment or not.

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          2. Larrym, reread my post, there is no personal attack in there, it’s a criticism, in my opinion, ofnthe way he is playing the game. It is far less of a personal attack than what you levy on other commenters on this site on a daily basis. You have not provided me any more data than I have to you, to prove that one of us is right and one of us is wrong, which means it’s a discussion of opinions. Deal with it.

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        2. Let me clarify this in another way: it’s one thing to talk about why different approaches for Rollins might be better. I think it’s a rather worthless project, for all the reasons stated above. But I don’t really care that much, it’s the kind of stuff people do on forums like this, and I probably wouldn’t be impelled to comment if it was just that. What steams me, and what gets me writing short long diatribes in response, is the next step: concluding that Rollins’ “refusal” to make these changes is a character flaw, evidence of laziness, or selfishness, or stubbornness.

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  5. Vance Worley to the DL, surgery scheduled for some time in the next week.

    I guess Cloyd is up to stay.

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  6. Not much rollins has not accomplished. Here’s the list.

    World series champ
    MVP
    Multi time All-Star
    Gold Glover
    Longevity

    I was not in favor of resigning him but he’s a Phillie legend.

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    1. He hasn’t hit 60 home runs in a season or been a WS MVP. Obviously he’s lazy. He should choose to do those things.

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  7. In other news, Utley was reportedly taking instruction and grounders at 3rd today. Probably nothing but its fun to speculate.

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      1. He had the arm, he didn’t have the accuracy. I thought this would be an interesting possibility when he was hurt but it got shot down quickly by our fellow posters.

        He’s matured as a baseball player quite a bit and his throws from 2nd to 1st (which used to be awful) have gotten better. If he’s up to it, I think he could be at least average at 3rd.

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    2. Most likely, like you said this means nothing, but it makes you wonder who will be starting at 3B next year.

      Utley, Galvis, Frandsen or a FA.

      I’m guessing a free agent but who knows.

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        1. as much as an adventure it would be, it is great to see a player in the end of his career do what is best for the organization
          Classy.

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          1. Exactly, wouldn’t see Rollins offering this up, despite the fact that the best infield defense the Phils could field next year would be Rollins at 3B, Galvis at SS, and Utley at 2B.

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            1. I sure do hope we never have to go into a season with Freddy Galvis as our starting SS ever. EVER. Not unless he adds about 100 OPS points.The guy can’t hit.

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            2. JRoll shouldn’t have to……he is a certain Hall of Famer — a current line of .—-270/.327/.430/758, and will have over 400 SBs, 200 HRs, and over 2000H when all said and done, and a defense that is unequaled with the best of them.

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            3. He doesn’t have to. But it would be nice if he would think about what’s best for the team in this case. And at this point in his career Galvis is the better fielding SS. If they don’t add a 3B, like it was said before, Rollins at 3B and Galvis at SS would be the best the Phils have to offer. But we all know how Rollins would react to that.

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            4. “But we all know how Rollins would react to that.”

              I’m fairly certain if he was asked to do it, he would do it…

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            5. Rollins still plays well above average defense at SS and his bat doesn’t play nearly as well at 3rd. IMO Galvis should be in AAA getting as many at bats as possible unless he’s needed as a long term injury replacement.

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            6. Freddy Galvis has played five major league games at SS in his career. His minors fielding percentage in 2011 was .967. Jimmy’s career fielding percentage is .983 (.980 this year), and he has never in a 12-year career had one lower than .978 (his rookie year), despite having a better range than most shortstops.

              So how is it that Galvis is the better fielding shortstop?

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            7. The better fielder comment is arguable either way. IMO Galvis has better range, and he’s only going to get better with time. I think as Rollins gets older, playing 3B will help, as he is going to slow down naturally. I agree that Rollins is still an above average SS, and I’ve always been a fan of Jimmy, but the guy has complained before when he was taken out of the leadoff spot.

              I would love to sign a 3B in the offseason, I was only talking about the situation,if they don’t sign anybody and have to live with what they have. I would much rather have Galvis at SS than Frandsen at 3B for a whole season.

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            8. “and a defense that is unequaled with the best of them.”
              I disagree with this sentiment, but he does have incredible defense.

              As it stands, though, he’s a fringe HOFer at best. Maybe in a couple of years.

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            10. He would need about 500 (3 years) more hits and 100 more stolen bases (4+ years), to get into HOF consideration for a SS. Staying with the same team would help his cause, I believe.

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            11. Gold gloves help with voters as well, so a couple more could help his cause. He could get one this year since he’s been healthy and still holds it down out there.

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            12. Didn’t really look at before, but Rollins will probably win the Gold Glove this year.
              Clint Barmes is really his only competition in the NL. They usually go with the big name.

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        2. Third base would probably be easier on Utley’s body, as people are not sliding into you there and there is probably less running and direction changing. However, it seems to me the big question is whether he has the arm for third base.

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        1. I actually this that it’s a brilliant idea,mthe question is the arm, but it would def be better for Utley and him being on the field as much as possible, it also solves the huge problem of what to do at 3rd and Galvis is plenty fine at 2nd. Basically this solves the Phillies whole infield question for next year.

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          1. Agreed, it makes sense if the arm works. The 3B market is terrible and they could play Galvis or Hernandez at 2B. This gives Asche another year in the minors to work on stuff and if he forces the issue, you move Utley back to 2B and Asche to 3B.

            But can he play it is the question.

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            1. He was a 3B in college, he did play a fair amount in the minors. There was a lot of questions about his defense overal til he made that commitment to his defensive play. I really think this is a great option and kudos to Utley on coming up with an idea that benefits the origination in a few ways

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            2. The bigger question is, if he can play at third, will the Phils be forced to cobble together a replacement in spring training next season when he suddenly can’t go? I love Utley, credit the World Series win in part to his leadership and believe he’s the ultimate gamer, but I don’t know if he can be counted on as the answer at any position at this point.

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            3. It’s worth the risk given the other options out there. Other than trading for Chase Headley, who’s out there?

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  8. Interesting news, Charlie was talking about how he’s been watching video of ruf’s performance in AA and came away very impressed, wants him for an extended tryout to see him in person either for the month of september or throughout spring training. Went further to say that he believed his offense was major league transferable based on what he’s seen and that if he could do well enough offensively, it would “make his defense better” (he means that it would make his poor defense more tollerable).

    Figuring the Ruf fanboys will looooooovvvvvvveeeeee this post 🙂

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    1. It is certainly worth trying as a platoon option or a inexpensive regular in the OF would befefit this team.

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      1. His troubles may be overstated. Apparently, one of the reasons he has struggled a little while with the R-Phils is that they are trying to re-tool his swing. An adjustment period is understandable. I think he’s a super prospect.

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  10. I really thought charlie was going to take a stroke last night, after brown didnt get to the ball in time, to stop wright from scoring.He keep staring at him, then, when he got into the dugout he started talking to him. so tonight might be more than a sore knee.But only a opinion dont have any knowlegde of what went on.Lack of hustle is something this team has a lot of starting with rollins,

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    1. Charlie doesn’t feel like he’s being honest with him and the trainers about their injury. He pretty much said that last night. Brown’s been hobbling around for weeks now… quite obvious.

      David Wright would’ve scored regardless. The ball was hit in the perfect spot. It might’ve been a little closer if he got to it quicker… but doubtful IMO.

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  11. When you believe that this is your best shot at redemption, you’ll do everything possible to stay on the field even though he’s clearly not at 100%.

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    1. I really feel for brown in a lot of ways, kids showing more heart then much of the phillies team this year. I think he’d give his left eye if it meant he could have a healthy next 3 years and be judged on his skills. Brown is really hungry, he wants this more then anything. He’s got the skills, I just hope he can go a year or two without injury because I really believe he’s the future in RF/LF. (man crush from drinking at work and now on the train…)

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  12. Phillippe Aumont’s stuff is other worldly. He needs work on command, but he has plus plus movement and plus velocity,

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      1. Aumont stuff is the best I have ever seen in a Phillies uniform. If he ever develops control, he will be a dominant closer. If there is anything good about his wildness is that he was missing low in the one. Simply nasty stuff! I wonder what his makeup is like? Anyone know or heard?

        Cloyd is a great story but there is no way he sticks as a major league starter. he got away with several 85MPH belt high fastballs. Also he did not have a lot of movement on his FB when he wasn’t throwing cutters. Too bad, I was really happy for him to make it. I now understand scout’s conundrum about him.

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        1. I couldn’t watch the game, but Bill Baer at Crashburn Alley had some .gifs of his pitches that I took a look at. What jumped out at me was his change-up looked pretty darn good. I know he doesn’t throw it that much (probably doesn’t have great control of it), but I wonder if it might do for him what it did for Kendrick. Maybe Hamels could give him some pointers.

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          1. The problem here is that the speed difference between his cutter and changeup wouldn’t be much, about 4-5MPH. That separation wouldn’t be ideal. With what I saw yesterday, his changeup is just a “show me” pitch.

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        2. I heard he gets a little emotional on the mound, so the catcher/pitching coach needs to watch out for that when things don’t go his way.

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  13. It was kinda lost in the talk of Utley at 3rd, but in the same article RAJ basically said he shares the same opinion of Asche as most of us here:

    “Looking further down the road, Amaro mentioned his dream scenario would be moving Utley to third for a year, find a spot for him for 2013 and beyond and bring up prospect Cody Asche to man third.

    Asche, the fourth-round pick of the Phillies in 2011, is hitting .307 with 10 home runs for Double-A Reading this season.

    ‘We like Cody,’ Amaro said. ‘But who knows (about whether he’ll be ready by 2013)? He’s playing in Double-A. He’s having a really, really good second half over there. But still, it’s just Double-A.'”

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  14. Better make that really,really ,really good. Half Asche’s august hits were extra bases(1/5.2ABs). (.424 OBP ).
    With a June mulligan .337 overall
    Something to look forward to during the AFL

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    1. Semantics. Although I don’t give month-long mulligans, the point is taken. And he is something to certainly look forward to, but the “it’s still just AA” argument is still valid nonetheless. I’m excited to see what he can do, but I’m not holding my breath to have him starting next year, and I’m cautiously optimistic that he may be ready mid-way through 2013 to put up average or above-average numbers in the ML level.

      He and Ruf are sure putting on a show, though.

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  15. I think its ridiculous to move Utley to 3B and Sarge pretty much said it as well. I saw the same thing on Cloyd not enough FB, not enough movement on the FB, he left too many cutters out over the plate. Thought he got away with a lot of pitches. 2 and 3 times through the league and my guess is he wouldn’t be as lucky. Possible long relief guy out of the pen would be his best hope at a MLB career IMO.

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    1. Positional flexibility has never hurt anyone. Moving him to 3B full time would decrease his overall value. But having the option to play him there would be incredibly valuable to the team. Imagine if we could just mix-and-match Chooch, Utley, and Frandsen at 3B next year. Might that be enough production that we wouldn’t need to get a full-time 3B?

      And even if we end up getting a good 3B, Chase being able to play there would be nice insurance. Plus, it gives him (Chase) another way to contribute to the team once he can’t viably play 2B full time anymore. I dunno about you, but I don’t ever want him with another organization.

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      1. Agree about Chase. But can somebody tell me why anyone thinks Chooch can play third? I mean, it’s intriguing and all, but has he ever played third in his life? I know he was a second baseman when he was like 18, but is it reasonable to expect even below avg fielding for him at his age?

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          2. Also Wilson Valdez can pitch. 🙂

            Sorry. That was like a hanging curve. I know you were just answering a simple question.

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            1. I don’t blame you. If we’re talking about how well he can play it, who knows for sure. But could he really be worse than Wigginton?

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  17. a few things for the good of the order:

    1. Why would we move Utley to 3b to accomodate Galvis? If we like that so much, the move would be Rollins to 3b. He is far more equipped to handle 3b than Utley. Is it that important to create a space for a .250 hitter with little pop?

    I would prefer to have Frandsen’s bat in the lineup than Freddie’s glove. I would like to see us work out a LH 3b play in a platoon with Frandsen rather than move Chase to 3rd. Galvis could be a defensive replacement for all 3 positions.

    2. Only saw Cloyd’s last two innings, but I liked what I saw. I thought his ball seemed to get on guys a bit. Sometimes it is hard to explain, whether it be deception, late movement, etc. why this happens, but the last couple innings, he was excellent.

    3. Aumont is nasty. If he and Diekman can gain control, they will be a tough combo.

    4. Obviously, the need is for a RH in a corner OF spot or 3b. That will be huge heading into the spring. I would be in favor of platoons in a few spots. Mayberry can play against LHP, maybe Brown sees fewer LHP?? Don’t know who, but I like how a competend platoon situation creates competition and depth.

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    1. I’d rather see Galvis in the lineup over Frandsen simply because he’s younger and has more potential than Frandsen. I do agree with you though that Rollins should move to 3B over Utley if they can’t get a 3rd baseman in the offseason. I proposed this before, but what about moving Utley to left field? I still think he’s got potential to be an all-star and moving to left field will preserve his knees and open up an opportunity for Galvis at second or Cesar Hernandez at second.

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      1. I think the smarter move is to hold onto Frandsen as the starting 3B and use Galvis as a super-sub, if only because my confidence that Utley will be ready for next season’s opener — at 2B, 3B, LF or wherever else — is about 20 percent, based on the past two spring trainings. Galvis will get plenty of opportunities to play.

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        1. I don’t know, I just think that the Phillies need a better player at 3B than Frandsen. Don’t get me wrong, I like Frandsen and I’m very happy for him as he’s done very well this season, but is he really an everyday starter for a world series contender? I don’t think so. I’d much rather them move Rollins to 3rd or trade for a guy like Headley, Beltre or Michael Young than have Frandsen play there. Frandsen I think can be a very good bench player/utility infielder and rephrasing what you said, some guys are going to get hurt during the year so Frandsen’s going to get some playing time.

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          1. Trade for Beltre? Seriously? Why would the Rangers want to do that? The Padres are still asking for a mint for Headley so I’ll pass. I don’t want any part of Michael Young. He’s making major money and he’s in serious decline.

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          2. I could stand a middle of the road Inf to play 3rd base in 2013.. WithAsche and Franko doing well in the minors, one of them will be ML ready by late 13 or ST 14..

            Even Ruin Tomorrow, Jr. Acknowledged that the PHillie 3rd baseman could be or most likely be a Phila farm product..

            Think about a phillies position player drafted , developed and coming from the minors…. ( not named Howard, Utley, Rollins ).. That may make 2 if Brown can stay healthy for more than a week and a half

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    2. If you only saw Cloyd’s last couple innings you didn’t see enough. You had to see the first three innings to see what the scouts are talking about.

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      1. Anyone notice that Kendrick only touched 90 like two or three times? How come nobody calls him a soft tosser ?

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  18. I just had a really long comment about how a bat playing at a position doesn’t matter for the 2013 Phils if they’ve decided Galvis is a starting infielder. It got deleted. Whatever. The crux is the same. It doesn’t.

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    1. Exactly. If the Phils have decided Galvis is going to play everyday it doesn’t matter what position Utley, Galvis, and Rollins are not. That’s the same offensive production in your lineup whether Galvis is at 3B, SS, or 2B.

      Maybe it ‘looks better’ if he’s playing SS with a weak bat…but it doesn’t mean squat when it comes to your batting order.

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    2. That’s still up in the air, isn’t it? He should start somewhere because he needs the PAs, I hope they don’t have him as some sort of super-utility guy who gets 300 PAs on the season.

      Also, there’s no guarantee that moving Utley or Rollins to 3rd gives you better *defense* than just putting Galvis there. They’re both still good fielders where they are.

      Like

      1. Oh absolutely. There’s been no assurance that he’s a starter at any position in 2013. Just seems like Utley to 3B might be an indication they think Galvis could play 2nd full time in 2013 as opposed to having to pick up any number of terrible FA options to play 3b.

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  19. the 6-9 guys in the order for the phillies today are wigginton, who hasn’t had a big hit in two months; mini mart, who can’t hit above .150; lerud, a double AA backup; and KK. that might be the worst offensive foursome i’ve ever seen. and since KK has already put the phillies in a 2-0 hole, this game is probably over with a lefty on the mound for the mets.

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      1. i was trying reverse psychology, lol. KK did a great job.

        btw, the team dropped luna from the 40-man roster. wonder who will take that spot?

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        2. Could also just be early house cleaning or to give Luna a chance at signing with a contender before tomorrow’s deadline if he thinks he might be able to.

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  20. Just why is mini mart still on the team yet alone playing the outfield? Post allstar Nix leads with .200,then mini .158 followed closely by Ty .152.
    RUMORS asked which GM had the best off season. Strangely enough Ruben was not on the list. Maybe they will have a worst in history list.

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  21. To think I was challenged by some in the spring on the lack of quality in the offseason deals.Holy qualls

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    1. Nowheels,

      If this is you being right, I’d hate to see you being wrong 🙂 (I say that affectionately, I am not trying to be mean this time). If one takes as a given the Phillies’ budget limitations:

      Most of the money went to Rollins and Papelbon – Rollins, despite whatever you can say about the recent incidents, has much more than justified his contract this season. Papelbon has been fine also – one can I guess question whether any closer is worth that much, but that’s a separate topic. If these deals end up looking bad, it will be because of future seasons, not this one. Especially if one looks at the results from the players who were regarded as alternative options.

      After that, they had limited money to go around. They spent it, on balance, pretty well.

      Pierre – despite his defensive deficiencies, a tremendous value signing.
      Nix – has over performed his career numbers. Not awesome, benefiting some from luck, but absolutely worth his low contract, despite time lost to injury.
      Thome – hit very well, then traded for a couple of prospects who might actually end up being something.
      Wigginton – I don’t like Wiggington. I would never intentionally give a guy like that over 300 PA. For the role he was acquired for, though … there’s not many names out there who were better and available and cheap. He was forced into a semi regular role he wasn’t really suited for.
      Qualls – didn’t work out. It happens.

      By my count, though, that’s 5 or 6 for 7 on off season acquisitions (including Rollins as an “acquisition”). One could argue, I guess, that, given the situation with Utley and Howard at the start of the season, they should have acquired someone who could have filled in better. That would have meant going over the luxury tax threshold (which would have implications for next year, given the higher penalties for going over twice in a row), a loss of prospects, or both. Given that the team likely wasn’t contending this year anyway, I’m glad that they didn’t pay that cost.

      Then there are the bench hold overs. Schnieder didn’t do much offensively, the team was happy with him defensively. That’s a trade off the team has been willing to make. You would prefer Kratz, heck, I would prefer Kratz, but I’m not sure I’m right on that. It’s a hard to evaluate trade off. Mayberry has been a disappointment, but he is fine for a back up, and his overall numbers would have looked better (because of his platoon split) if he wasn’t forced into full time duty. MArtinez .. well, no comment, you got me there.

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  23. Charlie in the post-game conference lambasted JRoll for lack of ‘hustle’…broke one of his two rules…here we go again!

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  24. btw, keith law in his chat today likes pettibone (though not ruf, as we already know).

    Free_AEC (NJ)
    Is Jonathan Pettibone a stealth prospect? He’s almost exactly one year older than Mark Appel.
    Klaw
    He was 3rd on my Phillies prospect rankings in the spring, so I don’t think he’s a stealth guy. His upside is somewhat limited by lack of stuff, but he can really pitch – good feel, good plan, should be an above-average command/control guy.

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  25. Hmmmmm interesting, missed the game but read the recap, was it as blatant by Rollins as the writeup says???

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    1. I listened to the game on the radio. Rollins hit a high pop-up on the infield and for some reasonthe pitcher, Niese, ended up trying to catch it and he made an error. Rollins ended up on first. The radio announcers pointed out that he would have been at second, had he been running all the way. Rollins later stole second, but that did not appear to appease Manuel who yanked him after the inning ended.

      The problem with this sort of thing is that the players don’t know when an error will occur, but they don’t hustle on routine outs. The lack of hustle is only noticeable when there is an error and then the player is reprimanded. In reality, there should be consequences for not running the ball out even when there is no effect on the game. This would accustom the players to hustling all the time. In some cases, hustling can cause the fielder to rush and make an error, but those who don’t hustle don’t consider it worthwhile to take that into account.

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      1. The coach answerd about 8/9 questions after the game on Jimmy. Very forthright and very definitive, He will handle it.

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    2. I saw it. The replay showed he put his head down in frustration, jogged for a bit, thought about turing toward the dugout, looked at the ball, saw the chaos, and made it to first. Then after he stole second, he got burned playing a contact play to the right side when Kendrick (on third), rightfully wasn’t running on contact. He kept a rundown going and Frandsen made it to second, so they still had 2nd and 3rd, (which they would have had if the Mets had thrown to first and Rollins had retreated to 2nd), but Chuck gave him a talking to in the dugout and, of course, pulled him.

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      1. And for the record, it’s the kind of thing that happens when guys get emotional. He was mad at himself for popping up again, (I think anyone would be at this point), and let it get in the way. I’d say he wasn’t not running because “why bother?”, but rather, “why me, again?”. Different than slowing on a grounder because “why bother?”, IMO.

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        2. From what I understand, Jimmy hits more pop-ups than anyone in the league. If he really wants to know “why me again?” he could probably ask his batting coach. It usually results from swinging at high pitches that are not strikes. He can change that with a little more self discipline.

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          1. And trying to pull a ball into the RF bleachers every single time up. He’s actually murdered 4 pigeons this year with his popups, one short of the MLB record, but he has a month to go.

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            2. He’s got a 3.3 WAR this year, pretty damn good. But seeing him go through this same $hit every year drives me crazy. Jimmy has to be the biggest cuplret of “I don’t play the game the right way” the team has at this point. He gets benched atleast once a season it seems. Him and Utley are complete opposites. Well whatever, not like we have a even remotely reasonable alternative, he stays.

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  26. Sad narrative to an otherwise great career. I suppose you could put up with his other negatives if he hustled.

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  27. I was just looking at the phillies post game box score from todays game… want to know how inept the offense is, get this.

    Of players with more then 150 AB’s:

    2 Have an OPS over .785 (wow that’s bad)
    Utley and Ruiz, neither of which will probably ever play a full 162 games for the remainder of their careers

    If you look only at current members of the team (not vic or pence):
    Only 3 have an OPS over .710

    Looking at other metrics for players with >150AB’s:
    They have 5 Players over 8% BB% (pretty good!)
    Freddy Galvis isn’t going to last in this league with a 3.5% BB% (Same problem with Valle) Good for worst on the team. Amazingly Cole Hamels takes nearly as many walks per AB. (3%)
    Ryan Howards K% is rediculous. At 36%, he’s (and then of course the phillies as a whole) in real trouble if that doesn’t rebound to his career norms.
    3 Players on the team K% at over 21%
    3 Players with an ISO over .200 (Ruiz, Ultey, Howard)
    Amazingly Brown doesn’t have a negitive WAR this year even with an ISO of .108 playing LF, with a below average BABIP, his poor range in the field, and poor running on the basepaths, i’m optimistic for next year, as I anticipate a rebound in ISO/BABIP/BsR/Fld once he’s healthy.

    Only 5 Players have a WAR over 1, and 2 of them are at 1.1… If you could rebuild the team reviewing only position players, It sure looks like this entire team outside of three players averages at to be a “replacement level” team, or close to it.

    Those 3 players are:
    Utley (2.0 WAR in only 51 Games)
    Rollins (3.3 WAR in 127 Games)
    Ruiz (5.1 WAR in 95 Games)

    Players least deserving of their contract based on current performance:
    Ryan Howard
    Placido Polanco

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    1. ‘Players least deserving of their contract based on current performance: Ryan Howard’..hit the nail on the head. This off-season RyHo needs to lose the extra-bulge, get better in shape and start to hit with authority again. You have to assume he is not happy with his production to date. After the last strikeout today was a disturbing silence from the fans, not boos, just indifference. Thats sad.

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      1. I’m having a really hard time watching the team right now. Philly.com had a list of 25 reasons to watch the phillies for the remainder of the year. I read it just to try and get into it but the fact is the on-field product is absolutely dreadful right now and a lot of that, atleast at the moment, starts with Ryan Howard, you can’t pay a player 25 million dollars to perform worse then an average backup. (-.7 WAR) It’s just not acceptable in anyway.

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  28. supra98 i totally agree, right now howard scares me, all those years at big money, and he is just lost against any lefthander or any slow pitchers or breaking balls. never seen him look this bad before.Jimmy rollins not huslting is a disgrace. getting paid all that money, and a veteran who should be a leader and he is laying down. imo he must go. dont care about his production. We must set a standard. and that is you hustle all the time. 4 or 5 times a game. your asked to run, and you cant.’ let someone defend that to me.Real nice example to the kids he brought to the game last night. and you wonder why these high school and college kids act the way,they do when they know they are really good.lack of hustle really gets me .This is what gets me about sports, unless you find someone to take on his money, you are stuck, football has the right idea, you make the team to get all your money.basketball should do the same thing.

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    1. “4 or 5 times a game. your asked to run, and you cant.’ let someone defend that to me.”

      You’re right, running 240-1500 feet a day for 162 days is not difficult. Except that doesn’t count defense. Or warm-ups. Or workouts. Or even the extra distance rounding bases. Or running back to the bag after a foul ball/fly out (at first). Face it, baseball players do a lot of running. A LOT. And every player neglects to run down the line when they’re almost guaranteed to be out at least some of the time. Cliff Lee took one step out of the box and just gave a gesture and went back to the dugout one time. Face it, you have a bias against Jimmy.

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      1. No he doesn’t, you actually aren’t paying attention. You’re right, not every player runs hard every time, but there is not a player in baseball that runs hard less often than Jimmy Rollins. I’ve seen 3 times this year where on non Phillies broadcasts via extra innings MLB package, the other teams broadcasters thought he was injured because he was barely jogging to first base. When they realize he wasn’t injured, they start going down the path of “that sure isn’t the fire and energy of these Phillie teams of the last 5 years”. It’s flat out embarrassing.

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  30. You guys need to chill out with the Howard bashing. He’s having a bad year because he’s playing hurt. Realistically, the guy shouldn’t even be playing this year but if he didn’t, the Phillies ticket sales would plummet.

    You also have to accept that he is what he is which is a game-changing power hitter that strikes out a lot. If the Phillies didn’t pay that much for Howard at the time, they would have lost him because someone else would.

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    2. I don’t think anyone else would have given him anywhere near that much money, but if they would the answer is to let him walk. I don’t know if he’s going to justify a starting spot in three years, let alone a $25M contract. And I don’t think anyone’s buying tickets to watch Howard flail wildly at low sliders and high fastballs.

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  31. DAN i really hope you are kidding. i am not a larry tyype to bash you. but lets get real. he runs to his postion? its his job. he gets paid big money. Cliff lee is a pitcher, but that is no excuse for not hustiling., i knew someone would try to make a excuse for him. just knew it. in some peoples eyes these guys can do no wrong. i am amaze by dan remarks. still cant believe he said he runs for defense, 11million a year to do his job,. that is part of his job. his job do you know that.

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    1. I never said it was acceptable. And it’s mostly not acceptable because of how much money professional ball players make. But they make that much because of us, the fans. Either way, everyone and their mother attacks Jimmy for not hustling. Fact is, Chase is the only one on our team that hustles more than Jimmy does. But people don’t call foul on anyone else. If they don’t hustle and they could have been safe, sure people will complain, but after a couple of days they will forget. But Jimmy? You’ll hear about him for months if he doesn’t run out routine ground balls.

      I’m not going to say this is a race thing, because it might not be. But what I will say is groupthink is a very dangerous thing. Someone on the radio says Rollins is lazy because he didn’t hustle one time or another, and people just go along for it and then suffer confirmation bias any time he fails to run as fast as they want him to. There’s no winning for him.

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      1. Seriously Dan, what are you watching? “Chase is the only one who hustles more than Jimmy”. Il go with, in no particular order, Ruiz, Frandsen, Kratz, Utley, Mayberry, Brown, Nix, Howard, Schierholtz, and Pierre on my list, with the top 3 being Utley, Pierre, and Frandsen.

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  32. I really was waiting for someone. and not saying you dan. to bring up race card. race in sports has imo nothing to do with lack of hustle. charlie said hustle is one of two rules,the other be on time. and if you are right about others not hustleing then its a real problem. i really havent notice anyone else , but thats not to say there are not others. I really believe charlie has to address this problem with a sit down of at least the next three games. and show the players, that its important to hustle or he will sit you., even if the team will suffer without jimmy in the lineup.

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  33. As sad as it is the reality is every team not just the Phillies have few players that play the game the right way which is why you notice an Utley or a Harper more.

    And I think you could say that most teams have their own Jimmy which is a player with a great deal of talent that doesn’t always play every play as if it were his last.

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    1. Perhaps JRoll is pacing himself due to his age and the rigors of everyday baseball. Not everyone has the same energy levels, ie Chase Utley.

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      1. Not everyone misses as much playing time as Chase Utley either. That extra hustle hasn’t added much value when you look at all the time he’s missed.

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      2. I don’t think that is the case. Larry Bowa had the same issues with Jimmy as a young player, he had the same issues with Kemp and Ethier when he was in LA.

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  34. I find the Jimmy Rollins commentary to be really nutty and all over the board. In my view, Charlie is doing exactly the right thing.

    Folks who think he is lazy and should be traded or is a waste of money are out of their minds. Jimmy Rollins has consistently been an excellent shortstop in terms of both offense and defense. People are frustrated because they think he should be great when, in fact, he is somehwere between good to very good. He is going to be a 4 WAR player this year and he is receiving 2 WAR money. The reality is that he is productive, a good bargain and, right now and for next year, this team definitely needs him. So, you bashers out there are out of your minds when you go overboard.

    Now for the other camp – those who think it’s stupid to criticize Jimmy and think that all this hustle stuff is overplayed and stupid. It’s not stupid. Charlie sets two very easy, reasonable and realistic rules for the players. Show up on time and hustle. Really, as with any manager of any professional organization, he is telling his charges that they need to get to work when work starts and they need to do their best. Those are good and realistic rules. They don’t ask anymore of the player/person than he can reasonably be expected to give. Effort is critical. Teams and other organizaitons require all players to do their best. It is necessary for the team and, frankly, since they are also performers, it is also disrespectful of the customers for the players to do any less. Moreover, if the player cannot try hard, Charlie is right that it undermines his authority and the authority and integrity of the game.

    So what is he to do? I think he did the right thing. To maintain his authority and to send the right message to Jimmy and the team, he needs to hold Jimmy out a game and then pull him whenever this happens again. And, frankly, how could the other players complain about that? They know that such actions are indefensible. In any event, the goal is for Jimmy to stay with the team but play the right way. If the issue becomes chronic, the team will need to determine whether more severe consequences or actions are required – hopefully, it never comes to that.

    The worst thing about this is Jimmy’s utter lack of contrition. He really does not get it – or he gets it but does not care. Worst of all, it’s very disrespectful not just to the team, the game and the fans, but to Charlie Manuel – who, regardless of whatever else you may think about him appears to be a very decent and fairminded man.

    Like

    2. There’s one problem with that catch. There’s no doubt that Manuel had a legitimate beef with the lack of running on the pop-up. (Though the play that directly caused the removal was another matter – not really “hustle” related in any meaningful sense – poor judgment, but if anything being TOO aggressive on the base paths.)

      But no one, not even I, am saying that it is a complete non issue. But there’s a huge disconnect between what people are saying on this site and what I imagine Charlie is saying to Rollins. As I say below, this is more a issue of Rollins’ reacting poorly to frustration than anything else, and I bet that’s what the conversation between Manuel and Rollins is about. If I’m wrong, bad on Manuel for mishandling the situation.

      I would also criticize Manuel for how he handled this with the press. He has to know the unfair grief that Rollins gets from the fans, and, by thge way he phrased this to the press, he (I’m sure unintentionally) fanned the flames of irrational fan hate. That was a mistake. People here Manuel use the word “hustle” – a nortoriously imprecise term – and assume he is in agreement with their bizarrre “lazy pleayer” narrative. I’m sure that he is not.

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      1. Give me a break Larry, he didn’t get pulled from the game because of a base running error on 2nd base, it was because of the popup.

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  35. Both of the recent instances are not cases of a player who doesn’t care, but of a player who reacts badly when he gets frustrated. That’s the ONE real issue here, and it has been an issue this year. It also tends to get blown out of proportion by about 1000%.

    Comparisons to Utley are unfair to Rollins. Don I think said that Rollins “hustles” more than any other player on the team aside from Utley. That may be a slight exaggeration, but in terms of the value underlying the term “hustle” (a term which I hate, but that’s a longer post) – that is, working hard to help the team – yeah, I’d say that Rollins is way up there.

    While I can at least sort of understand the impulse to criticize based upon the so-called hustle issues, the tendency for so many people here to personalize other real or imagined defaults enrages me. And the recent incident brings the slime out of the woodwork. Now it’s the pop-ups – again recall this is not a long standing problem, but just this year. And instead of making the reasonable conclusion that the pop-ups are a combination of a hitter suffering age related decline and sample size, people around come to the bizarre conclusion that it’s Rollins’ fault – too stubborn to change his approach is one of the KINDER conclusions you guys are making. But it’s obvious that Rollins is as frustrated as you guys – more so – about the pop-ups. If he could fix it he would.

    You want to ding me for sometimes being too condescending to some of the people on this site whose baseball knowledge is less than sophisticated? Fine, guilty as charged. But I will NEVER apologize for defending Phillies players from baseless character assassination. My fondest hope is that we drive these @ssholes back to WIP and away from this site.

    It also saddens me that some of you who should know better are giving aid and comfort to the haters. On this issue, this site needs far far far MORE anger and so called nastiness.

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    1. I’m going with Catch on this one, I think Jimmy deserved the benching and I also agree he’s absolutely vital to this team, he’s one of the 3 position players who we need. (see my above year end stat post).

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  36. ‘It also saddens me that some of you who should know better are giving aid and comfort to the haters.’….can you be more specific on this issue?

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    1. Well YOU anon – for one – you are a guy who, despite numerous disagreements, is usually rational and reasonable. Yet you’re siding with the haters.

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      1. Truly?, IMO the haters jumped all over me when I said a few days ago Rollins was certainly a strong candidate for the HOF. All he needs is a few more years of his current play. I am saddened by this latest event, and hopefully everyone just moves on. I really would be disappointed if it gets to a Charlie vs Jimmy battle of the wills. Then that means Ruben steps in and who knows what happens then?

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        1. Fair enough. I was referring to a dust up you and I had a few days ago over Rollins, so much water under the bridge since then I don’t recall the details, but unfortunately I don’t have time to go back and look at it.

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          1. I do think that the “frustration” is not just Rollins, but Manuel too. Again without denying that there was a real issue here, I think that the unfortunate remarks to the media are quite possibly making it worse. If I were Rollins, after hearing what he said to the press, I’d be in a much more defensive – and less receptive – frame of mind than if Manuel had simply said something along the lines of “its an internal team matter that will be dealt with internally,” which is what he should have said,

            A team loses, and frustration comes out in a lot of different (and unhealthy) ways.

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        1. No, my definition of a “hater” is someone who irrationally makes up moral failings of a player. Set aside the “hustle” stuff, which is mostly made up but based upon real observations & is in any event subjective. What I’m mainly talking about here are people who characterize Rollins as lazy or selfish or stubborn or whatever based upon the fact that his statistical performance as a hitter – whether it be plate discipline, or pop-ups, or whatever – isn’t what the observer wants it to be. The word “hater” is a precise and accurate description of the vile scum who makes up this kind of stuff. Actually, “hater” is a polite and generous way to put it. I’m being nice.

          This is not an “opinion” kind of thing. I have all sorts of “opinions” which may or may not be correct. That people who invent moral failings for Rollins based upon his failures as hitter (and relative failure – he is still, overall, well above average as a hitter compared to other shortstops) are irrational is not an opinion, but a fact.

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        2. And frankly my hope is that cowardly ignoramuses like yourself go back to your sub-human buddies at WIP .

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  37. Somebody made the Ruf/Burrell comparison, and I think that is a good starting point to look at what Ruf could be in LF. With a couple of caveats. Obviously, the fact that Burrell had 1600 major league PA at Ruf’s age is one of them, but set that aside and looking at skills sets, I do see something of a similarity.

    Burrell wasn’t much of a fielder when he broke in or late in his career after he lost a step or two, but was decent for a few years in the middle of his career. He was more athletic than Ruff, and my impression form all that I have read is that Ruf, even if he improves on things like route running, will not be as good a defender as mid career Burrell. Also, as pointed out by others, Ruf does not have Burrell’s plate discipline, or even particularly close to it.

    The “other hand” – well, there are two other hands. The first is that offensive context matters – if Ruf could put up Burrell type numbers, that would look a lot better under current offensive conditions. The second is that, despite Burrell being perceived as at least a moderate disappointment, he had very successful career, and even if Ruf didn’t reach that level, he could have a decent career.

    What I think the Burrell comparison does, though, is puts some of the enthusiasm a little in perspective.

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    1. Larry, after reviewing the teams overal all statistical performance this past year offensively, I think Ruf should be on this roster. 2 players have an OPS over 780!!! Wait let me say that again in a different way, only 3 have an OPS over .710!!! We’re all pretty much delusional if we don’t admit Ruf likely cruises right by that .710 OPS in what will be his rookie year. That makes him the 3rd best player on the team offensively. I get the knocks on his defense, but as I said before, this team has pretty much a text book definition of “replacement level” players outside of Utley and Ruiz, neither of whom can play anywhere close to 162 games a season.

      I have no idea what Ruf is going to be, but looking at the current state of the team (as you alluded to above) it’s a starting to feel like a no brainer.

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      1. I don’t think that’s a valid way to look at it. Weaknesses at other positions are irrelevant. Is he better than the other options at the … one and a half positions that he can play is the relevant question.

        They aren’t benching Howard for him, and they shouldn’t. Which leaves left field. Based on all reports, at THIS POINT Ruf is probably somewhere between 15 to 20 runs below average defensively. Maybe, maybe, he can eventually be better than that – though I’d say his ceiling is probably 10 runs below average defensively. Can he reach even that next year? Anything is possible I guess, but the reports of guys who have seen him play are not positive.

        Now, all that said, what are the options? First of all, maybe a free agent. Granted, CF is probably a higher priority there, but if they can’t sign a decent CF for a reasonable price IMO they need to look at outfielders.

        So what are the options in LF if they don’t sign a FA? Probably a Schierholtz/Mayberry platoon. Or maybe Nix instead of Schireholtz. Now maybe that sounds uninspiring, but all three are over your arbitrary .710 cut off on a career basis, and in a strict platoon role could be much better than that. All three are better defenders – by a lot – Mayberry and Nix especially, but all three are better than average defensively. These may seem like uninspiring options to most people around here, but I don’t think such a platoon would be much worse offensively than would Ruf, and it would be MUCH better defensively.

        Now, you want to say he should be on the team as a reserve, maybe spell Howard against left handers, maybe even play some LF against left handers, fine. Penciling him in NOW as an everyday left fielder is IMO a big mistake.

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        1. In other words his role would be Ty Wigginton this year minus the ability to stand at 3B (he could probably stand there and pretend to play almost as well). I don’t think that is bad as I see this team having to do much more platooning and match up pinch hitting going forward (which might have to come with someone explaining to Charlie how that actually works). To keep competitive this team needs to get smarter and not carry useless players on the bench (I am looking at you Martinez and all of the Layne Nix replacements) and even consider carrying one less bullpen pitcher with the number of guys who could go multiple innings (Schwimmer, Horst, Valdes?, Cloyd?, Rosenberg?).

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        2. I’ll admit that the following is optimistic, but a strict platoon of Schierholtz and Mayberry, using career numbers (splits) and assuming 75% of the AB to Schierholtz and 25% to Mayberry, gives us this over a season of 650 PA:

          .275/.321/.452 with 20 HR.

          SSS for Mayberry and projecting a strict platoon is probably a little unrealistic, but even better than I would have expected.

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          1. I’m having trouble believing Mayberry can live up to his “career average splits”… how about if you use his split for just the current year, would you still think he’s worth it? And further, do you think Manuel would actually “strictly” implement the above?

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            1. Well, Mayberry’s numbers against left handers are actually pretty impressive this year, so my answer would be unequivocally yes. The reason he was so much better last year was that he (uncharacteristically) hit right handers pretty well.

              If the best argument for Ruf as a regular is that you don’t trust Manuel to execute a simple platoon – we have bigger troubles than figuring out how to fill LF next year.

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            2. I don’t think it’s Manuels competancy that’s the issue, I think it’s his reliance on playing “the hot hand”… I suspect it would be anything but a “strick” implementation of a platoon.

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        3. I’m not suggesting he start full time in LF for the phillies and I wonder if he couldn’t be better at 3rd then in LF, he’s suppose to have a decent arm. (alibet quite a bit below average for either position at best) but it’s the range and reading the ball off the bat in the outfield that’s a problem. I’d like to see him start at 1B one out of every 7 games (say 5 Ab’s per game on those days for a total of 115), and I’d like to see him get 5 AB’s per 6 games he doesn’t start which is nearly another 115 ABs for a total of 230 AB’s. That would be great for Ruf. And if Howard goes on the DL he’s the full time starter at 1B. Done deal for me.

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          1. Well okay, but that gets back to my last sentence in my post above, sounds like we are maybe on the same page. It would mean them either going with an extra position player or cutting Nix or Shierholtz loose.

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            1. What OPS do you think Ruf puts up in his rookie year? Let’s say it’s .780, with no split. Given his extrodinarily cheap price, that makes him a better fit then either Nix or Shierholtz. He’s our Jim Thome replacement.

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            2. Neither of those guys is costing that much either, and they are obligated to Nix regardless.

              But certainly you can argue that they don’t need BOTH of those guys, that as left handed corner outfielders they are a little redundant. As I said, I am leaning toward the notion that Ruf should be on the team as a reserve next year in any event, so we aren’t realyl disagreeing much.

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            3. As for his OPS next year … I would take the under on .780, but it wouldn’t shock me that much if I was wrong.

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  38. Not sure if this was posted yet. From yesterday’s Fangraphs prospects chat:

    Comment From MatthewMatthew: ]
    Hi Mike, Any prospects come to mind that you really like despite really bad statistics? Players who might come out of nowhere in 2013 or 2014.
    Thursday August 30, 2012 4:34 Matthew
    4:36
    Mike Newman:
    Of late, Mitch Walding of the Phillies. When I wrote him up at Fangraphs, he was hitting .340. I’m not sure he has a hit since. However, I loved the swing and power potential. He was one of my favorite position prospects this season.

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    1. Doesn’t seem to be a huge prospect endorsement as much as a an acknowledgement of his accomplishments this past month and season as a whole.

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    2. I’m surprised he’s not first. 1.200 OPS is hard to come buy even in a small sample

      BTW, Pierre has cleared waivers. We should expect to see another prospect coming our way though it’s likely to be of the fringe variety

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      1. If they just essentially gave him away I would be fine with it, even if it means until Reading’s season is over we just get more of Schierholts, Nix, Mayberry, and Brown. Let those guys hit for a job, we know what Pierre is.

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    3. BA; In the Team Photo: —-Astros RF Domingo Santana has legitimate pop, so his 20 homers this year aren’t simply a product of playing his home games at high Class A Lancaster’s launching pad. Santana, who just turned 20 on Aug. 5, belted two long balls this week, part of a .385/.484/.692 (10-for-26) showing. — Purely hypothetical and speculative, but what suppose Dom Santana was born in 1990 vs 1992, would that change his prospect status?

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  40. wow , words like slime. interstering. i always wonder about some of the post, especially when guys just keep looking at numbers, to judge prospect. and though that was a little crazy. then i read ,you cant go the other way with pitches, and jimmy was frustrated so he didnt hustle.Now i have my answer to my question, any one who every play this game knows, most times you have to wait on a pitch a little longer to hit it opposite way,if you played the game you would know that. yes you cant for the most part drive a inside pitch the other way, but anything middle in you can by the position of the bat, its called waiting on the pitch. jimmy lack of hustle , be it from frustaion or other wise, is so bad,anyone who would defend him,especially since this is the fourth time, is just a homer, and really is on the site to praise people and not be realistic. thats why i have tried so hard to ignore the stupid post by some. especially since i am in the idiot poster. so i hope the kids in the stands who saw it never try to be like this guy, and not always give 100 percent nomatter what your are trying to do in life or in sports,this guy imo is a loser and always will be, for his lack of hustle and arrogant attitude,how many times did manuel say on previous occasion,its between jimmy and me,but now he handled it wrong in the press?get real. what a joke statement.

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    1. Folks, those of you who think I’m mean, just think what I could say to poor little roccom here, and see that I am restraining myself.

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      1. yeah Roccum…He’s a loser..A guy who has been one of the best phillies ever and helping lead us to a world series..But hes a loser cuz he didnt bust it on 2 pop ups…Try looking up his community work and how he went to africa to help underpriviledged kids in their quest to make their dreams comes true and make the little league world series…Your negativity is downright intolerable and frankly pathetic…Since calling human beings Losers is acceptable here, you sir are the BIGGEST one…Nice life you must have over there.

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    2. roccom…..what Jimmy did was uncalled for, especially two weeks after the Mariln incident in Miami and the subsequent counsel by Charlie. But really, what game have you not watched were a batter pops it up at the plate or pitcher’s mound area, and im frustration slams his bat to the ground and jogs down to first…I see it virtually every game. So in fairness, Jimmy did not do anything yesterday that we normally do not see at every game. His timing was off. If the Marlin game was in April and this was May, by September its an after thought.

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  41. 2013 third base option: If Orioles decide to put prospect Manny Machado at ss in 2013, perhaps JJ Hardy could be available in a trade to play third at $7M through 2014. Then again Wilson Betemit is the current Oriole third baseman and he may be the one they want to trade and move Hardy over to third.

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      1. When you sit around 98-99 and touch 101 4 times in an inning you’ve got a pretty special arm. Anyone know if the BB rate has improved at all for him?

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  44. anoni. I believe that the phillies announcer said it best. when he was asked, about jimmy not hustleing, the question was . what percent of players do the same thing,he said about 70 percent. but its like your kid,who says all my friends do it,good parents answer to that is, i care about you,not your friends, so jimmy no way is excused, and to larry, you cant answer me without your stupid stats, only way you know how to look at a game, if you ever saw one or play the game.but i did break a rule.i never wanted to respond to you, because you are so one sided, and have really only stats, and no common sense when it comes to the game., i really believe you never played this game.especially you dumb comment that guys cant go the other way,angle of bat and waiting if you ever played the game,on most pitches y can. but just keep putting up stats,it makes you look good to the other people , who never played, and think you know something. and i wont respond to you,again its too much trouble, and i rather watch paint dry than talk to you on this sport.

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    1. Would you rather have had Chase Utley hustle a little less on routine plays and as a result save some wear and tear on his knees and end up playing more games, or would you rather have the Utley who has lost so much time to injury and will end up with a shorter career. I think it’s relatively safe to assume that production between the two options would be fairly similar and the major difference would be the amount of games played.

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  45. Is Michael Martinez good at anything? He can’t play D, he can’t hit, and he’s not even that fast. Why is he still on the team let alone starting?

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    1. i agree. might as well play juan pierre, even against lefties. intentionally walking him to get to hamels was a head-scratcher.

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      1. Maybe we will see Justin DeFratus today in a mop up role if the Phillies hold the commanding lead late in the game.

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  48. Chris, chase only knows how to play one way, and that is the right way,and if he plays less, at least the guy did the right thing,each game and left nothing on the field’

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  49. Tyler Cloyd: 7 IP, 1 ER, 4 H, 9 K, 0 BB.

    Just a fantastic performance by Cloyd, and it would have been a shutout if it weren’t for one bad pitch to Jay Bruce. The guy doesn’t have great velocity, but he changes speeds well and has great location and on his pitches. Seems like a solid back-end of the rotation guy.

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    1. Let’s wait and see what happens when teams start seeing him for the second and third game. Cloyd’s first game was far from a masterpiece. The strikeouts are definitely encouraging today though.

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  50. I guess there is a risk that this comment gets buried in the days-old general discussion, but that’s where it belongs, so here goes –

    Has anyone noticed that Mayberry has quietly had a fantastic second half? He’s still not good enough to be a full time regular, but with his defense, positional flexibility, and ability to smash lefties, he is, going forward, an important, cost controlled piece for the Phillies.

    This will be heresy here, but he, more than Nix, may be the main barrier to Ruf making the team next season. Would I prefer Mayberry over Ruf in a platoon/bench role? Yes.

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    1. Agree, Mayberry seems to have caught a small flame in the 2nd half. It could be a streak of sorts.Though, I have always liked him as the 4th and also to fill in at first base to give Howard the occasional rest/sit out against a tough lefty.

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    2. He is a very good cheap 4th OF who makes the nice half of a corner platoon. I really wouldn’t mind a platoon with him and Nix or Schierholtz with the team bringing in a stud CF. The other option is you cut Nix or Schierholtz promote Ruf and platoon Mayberry more with Brown and a LH CF.

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      1. I think that was the plan this year- to platoon him with Nix in LF. I wouldn’t mind going that route again next year but it depends what happens with CF and 3B.

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