Around the System–Starting Pitchers, Top Half

A look at how Starting Pitchers fared at the top levels of the organization.  The Bottom Half rotation review will come out at the end of the week.

Lehigh Valley

Dave Bush, 31, Signed as a free agent during 2011 season; 4 starts; 1-2 with a 3.91 ERA; 23IP 20H 6BB 16K; 1.13 WHIP; .233 opp. avg., .242 vs. LH, .226 vs. RH, .188 with RISP. Bush had just a cup of coffee in Allentown but pitched effectively while he was here.  The Phils could do alot worse than Bush as their sixth or seventh starter in the organization.

Brian Bass, 29, Signed as a free agent prior to 2011 season;28 starts; 8-10 with a 3.81 ERA; 158.1 IP 170H 56BB 105K; 13HR allowed; .278 opp. avg., 1.43 WHIP; .290 vs. LH, .269 vs. RH, .266 with RISP; 3.1BB/6.0K; 4-4 with a 3.30 ERA and a 1.32 WHIP Post All Star game.  Bass became the most dependable starter for Lehigh Valley in the seasons final two months.  He eats innings and pitched well in crunch time.  I suspect Bass may look for an opportunity in a organizartion with a bit less depth at starting pitcher for next season.

Ryan Edell, 28, Signed as a free agent prior to 2011 season; 5-1 with  3.50 era in 12 starts in Reading; 72IP 79H 9BB 50K; 1.22 WHIP; 5-5 with a 3.27 ERA in 17 games (10 starts) for Lehigh Valley; 77IP 80IP 11BB 65K; 0.95 GO/AO; .269 opp. avg., .202 vs. LH, .298 vs. RH, .275 with RISP;1.3BB/7.6K;  4-3 with a 2.75 ERA Post All Star; 1.06 WHIP. Edell was very, very good as the season wore on, solidifying the Lehigh Valley rotation. A lefty with pin point command, Lehigh Valley could do alot worse than bringing him back.  Gonna be a numbers game.

Scott Mathieson, 27, Phils 17th round pick in 2002; 2-2 with a 3.28 ERA in 30 games (12 starts); 82.1IP 71H 50BB 83K; 9HR allowed; 0.65 GO/AO; .230 opp. avg; 2-2 with a 3.46 ERA as a starter; .221 vs. LH, .235 vs. RH, .171 with RISP; 5.5BB/9.1K; 1.43 WHIP as a starter. Mathieson transitioned into the rotation mid season and was effective at times, but struggled with his command other times. He averaged just over 4.5 innings per start. Mathieson has talent, throws awfully hard and is the consummate professional.  However, status as a “tweener” has been cemented in the Phillies organization. He will be out of options after this season and the Phillies would be doing him a favor if they would cut him loose, so he could attempt to make the roster of another team as a minor league free agent.

Nate Bump, 35, Re-signed as a free agent prior to 2011 season; 26 starts; 5-9 with a 4.97 ERA; 134IP 172H 29BB 68K; 11HR allowed; 1.24 GO/AO; .319 opp. avg., .357 vs. LH, .285 vs. RH, .342 with RISP; 1.9BB/4.6K; 3-3 with a 3.38 ERA and a 1.30 WHIP Post All STar. Pretty much the worst pitching I have seen post Mike Mimbs, until you get to his effort as the season wound down.  He pitched several crucial games very well down the stretch but I would not expect Bump back.

Eddie Bonine, 30, Signed as a free agent prior to 2011; 3-4 with a 5.16 ERA in 11 games (10 starts); 45.1IP 58H 8BB 44K; 1.54 GO/AO; .310 opp. avg; Bonine underwent Tommy John surgery mid season and will miss at least half of next season.

Reading

Tyson Brummett, 27, Phils 7th round pick in 2007; 1-4 with a 5.82 ERA in 7 games in Lehigh Valley (6 starts); 34IP 41H 11BB 20K 6HR allowed; 2.13 GO/AO; .306 opp. avg., 4-8 with a 4.52 ERA in 30 games (11 starts) in Reading; 91.2IP 103H 28BB 72K; 11HR allowed; 1.43 WHIP; .259 vs. LH, .300 vs. RH, .253 with RISP. Brummett has very pedestrian stuff and with the talent coming up from Clearwater if he sticks, I would suspect it is as a long man somewhere.

Tyler CLoyd, 24, Phils 18th round pick in 2008; 3-1 with a 2.75 ERA in 13 games in CLearwater (5 starts); 39.1IP 31H 7BB 39K; 1.45 GO/AO; .212 opp. avg., 1.6BB/9K ratio; Reading: 6-3 with a 2.78 ERA in 18 games (17 starts); 106.2IP 101H 15BB 99K; 7HR allowed; 0.96 GO/AO; .250 opp. avg., 1.2bb/8.4K; 1.09 WHIP; .294 vs. LH, .214 vs. RH, .238 with RISP; Cloyd was simply outstanding this season and will be playing in the Arizona Fall League next month. The Phils must make a decision about whether to protect him on the 40 man and his performance in Arizona may be a deciding factor in that.  His control is possibly the best in the organization and he knows how to pitch.  Next season: Lehigh Valley rotation.

Joe Esposito, 26, Signed as a free agent in 2010; 2-2 with a 3.55 ERA in CLearwater; 21 games (2 starts); 45.2IP 42H 24BB 38K; 0.67 GO/AO; .258 opp. avg., 4.7BB/7.5K; In Reading: 5-5 with a 5.48 ERA in 14 starts; 65.2IP 75H 30BB 56K; 8 HR allowed; 0.65 GO/AO; .293 opp. avg., 1.60 WHIP; 4.1BB/7.7K; .290 vs. LH, .296 vs. RH, .338 with RISP. Esposito ate some innings but was generally ineffective for Reading. If he is back, it will be in a “long man” role.

Austin Hyatt, 25, Phils 15th round pick in 2009; 28 starts; 12-6 with a 3.85 ERA; 154.1IP 136H 49BB 171K; 20HR allowed; 1.19 WHIP; 0.60 GO/AO; .235 opp. avg; 2.8BB/9.9K; .201 vs. LH, .282 vs. RH; .193 with RISP; 5-1 with a 2.78 ERA Post All Star. Another very good season for Hyatt who threw alot of innings, got hitters out and had a very nice BB/K ratio.  Lehigh Valley rotation for 2012.

JC Ramirez, 23, Acquired from Seattle in 2009; 26 starts; 11-13 with a 4.50 ERA; 3CG; 144IP 144H 55BB 89K; 0.71 GO/AO; .258 opp. avg., 1.38 WHIP; 15 HR allowed; 3.4bb/5.6K; .242 vs. LH, .270 vs. RH, .272 with RISP; 4-5 with a 5.92 ERA Post All Star; Ramirez’s year spanned the whole spectrum…excellent at times and just awful other times.  The biggest difference from years past is that he is “pitching to contact” this year.  Not sure if this is by design, but it is dangerous with Ramirez. ALready on the 40 man roster, the Phils will have to push him to Lehigh Valley next year, his second option year.

Clearwater

David Buchanan, 22, Phils 7th round pick in 2010; 20 starts in Lakewood; 13-5 with a 3.38 ERA; 125IP 115H 32BB 86K; 1.13 GO/AO; .246 opp. avg., 1.17 WHIP; 2.3BB/6.2K; 6 starts for Clearwater; 3-2 with a 3.90 ERA; 32.1IP 37H 11BB 24K; 1.52 GO/AO; .289 opp. avg., 1.48 WHIP; 3.1BB/6.6K; Buchanan was a South Atlantic League All Star and was called up to Clearwater in August and had some growing pains, but did fine.  Expect him to be a mainstay in the Clearwater rotation in 2012, with a late season callup to Reading if warranted.

Brody Colvin, 21, Phils 7th round pick in 2009; 22 starts; 3-8 with a 4.71 ERA; 116.2IP 131H 42BB 78K; 10HR allowed; 1.33 GO/AO; .289 opp. avg., .273 vs. LH, .302 vs. RH, .262 with RISP; 1.48 WHIP; 3.2BB/6.0K; Colvin’s season started awful and did not get much better as opponents hit .375 against him in APril and then .336 in August.  He was injured often and rumored to be out of shape at the beginning of the season.  That being said, still has a huge upside and very well could bounce back ala Trevor May.  Next season: Clearwater until he proves otherwise.

Trevor May, 22, Phils 4th round pick in 2008; 27 starts; 10-8 with a 3.63 ERA; 3CG; 151.1IP 121H 67BB 208K; 8 HR allowed; 1.24 WHIP; 4.0BB/12.4K; 0.70 GO/AO; .221 opp. avg., .229 vs. LH, .214 vs. RH, .248 with RISP; 2-2 with a 4.50 since August 1. May was the Phillies Minor League Pitcher of the Year and deserved every bit of the accolades he received, bouncing back from a difficult 2010.  He was simply dominant until he slowed down just a bit as the innings wore on in late August. Clearly Reading to start and I wouldn’t be surprised to see him in Lehigh Valley come August.

Jonathan Pettibone, 21, Phils 3rd round pick in 2008; 27 starts; 10-11 with a 2.96 ERA; 161IP 149H 34BB 115K; 5HR allowed; 0.99 GO/AO; .248 opp. avg., 1.13 WHIP; 1.9BB/6.4K; .244 vs. LH, .253 vs. RH, .283 with RISP; 3.42 ERA Post All Star; Pettibone was consistently very, very good this year, making the FSL All Star game and hardly slowing down in the 2nd half of the season.  Doesn’t allow walks or homers, two categories that will allow him to continue to be successful.  2012: Reading rotation

Julio Rodriguez, 21, Phils 8th round pick in 2008; 27 starts; 16-7 with a 2.76 ERA; 156.2IP 102H 56bb 168K; 0.46 GO/AO; .186 opp. avg., 13 HR allowed; 1.01 WHIP; 3.2BB/9.7K; .213 vs. LH, .159 vs. RH; .209 with RISP; 8-3 with a 2.56 ERA Post All Star. If you look at Rodriguez’ stats, he has the best line of any starter in the organization. He doesn’t get the attention of others because he doesn’t have the “stuff” others do, but a line like the one above can’t be ignored.  He knows how to pitch, throws deep into games and lead the organization in Wins, all with a WHIP just above 1.  2012: Reading rotation.

Matthew Way, 24, Phils 5th round pick in 2009; Missed the entire season injured.  Unsure of his current status, I am sure the Phils would love to have him back in Clearwater in 2012.

75 thoughts on “Around the System–Starting Pitchers, Top Half

  1. I’m confused…

    Ryan Edell is a “A lefty with pin point command” playing at the AAA level? Why is this man not on the big club? A lefty who can locate any/all of his pitches is an invaluable commodity.

      1. I don’t understand what this means. (Seriously, not being argumentative.) Granted, having wonderful stuff is a pretty big plus, but having pedestrian stuff that you can “pinpoint” is still pretty dang good, is it not? Not every MLB pitcher has plus plus stuff and plus plus command. So-so stuff with plus plus command should still = MLB player, should it not?

        1. Agreed. Some of the pitchers without the ‘raw stuff’ compensate by being smarter in mixing up and hiding pitches. I guess it all boils down to command of the out pitch.

        2. I have no information regarding Edell specifically. But in general, command can only go so far in compensating for stuff. Mediocre stuff, excellent command, is a major league pitcher. Poor stuff, even with excellent command, not so much. Sounds like that’s probably Edell.

          1. Edell did not throw over 85 mph in Game 4 of the Championship at LHV. He looks tricky, but just a junk baller. A very poor mans Moyer.

        3. Plus plus command yes. But I’d call Edell’s command “good,” maybe one plus. I think he could make some spot starts here and there, a good defense in a good park would help. But his command just wouldn’t cover the lack of velocity well enough to work. At least in my opinion.

  2. These are tricky lists to develop. I call them preliminary lists because I’m willing to change my viewpoint. Respectful feedback please.

    LEFTY STARTERS
    1. Jesse Biddle
    2. Adam Morgan
    3. Austin Wright
    4. Lino Martinez
    5. Ervis Manzanillo

    RIGHTY STARTERS
    1. Trevor May
    2. Julio Rodriguez
    3. Brody Colvin
    4. Jon Pettibone
    5. Percy Garner
    6. Lisalberto Bonilla
    7. Tyler Cloyd
    8. Austin Hyatt
    9. Kevin Walter
    10. Garret Claypool

    1. LH: Lino Martinez #2
      RH: Jon Pettibone #2

      JC Ramirez is the same age as Percival Garner and is 3 levels higher. I’d put him ahead of Garner and in the 5-7 range.

      1. Martinez is a command lefty at this stage. An uptick in velocity would make him a real prospect but when I saw him pitch against Brooklyn on SNY he was sitting high 80s.

        I saw Ramirez twice at Reading. Throwing 84 on what’s supposed to be a slow gun. Even giving him the benefit of the doubt he was throwing sub 90. His K rate went down because his velocity went down. He now has 39 starts at AA and poor peripherals to go along with them. His age is the only thing keeping his prospect status alive. He hasn’t had really great seasons in the past to keep his stock up. (For what it’s worth, I’m actually listing Ramirez on my reliever list. I believe his future is there.)

        I’m mindful of prospect age. But I think it means more at 23-24 than it does at 18-21. I don’t consider a 21 year old in Williamsport much differently than an 18 year old. It’s a starter league, college kids go there most of the time. Martinez had success there too but his K rate was lower. A command lefty just isn’t a big prospect even if he is 18. Not as a starter.

        1. I do agree that JC Ramirez is a reliever and not a starter, but even with that, I think I’d rank him ahead of 4 or 5 of those other guys. Ramirez is almost guaranteed to at least be a bullpen piece. Those others are all long shots.
          I understand your reasoning with Morgan and Wright over Martinez, but for me, 19 is 19. Plus Lino’s numbers improved much more than other pitchers who moved up from the GCL. IMO, the level of improvement at that age means something too.

    2. Hyatt wil start in LHV and could get a start at the ‘Bank’ in June/July when some starters go on the DL. IMO—-he switchs spots above with Percy Garner.

    3. I agree with your picks Alan. I think Garner will be the Phils’ break out pitcher next year. The only one I’m not sure about is Kevin Walter, who, I assume, was injured this year. I’d put Claypool ahead of him. Giles didn’t impress me in his two or three jobs this year.

    4. Thanks for starting the conversation, Alan. I definitely have Wright above Morgan. Wright outperformed Morgan in the NYPL and got promoted to LKW, where he was excellent in 33 IP. Over the 68 IP he had this year, he had a K/9 of 11.2 and a BB/9 of 2.9. Compared to Morgan at 7.2 and 2.3. He throws a little harder than Morgan, though it sounds like Morgan has two average secondary pitches whereas Wright has only one. I’m on the Wright bandwagon and think he could possibly open the year in Reading a la Worley. Then again, I’ve never seen him pitch and it was only 68 IP, so I could be totally wrong.

      1. I also have Wright over Morgan. He has better stuff. 94 mph I believe. The knock on him was control…he managed a pretty low walk rate since being drafted. Hopefully he turned the corner.

      2. I also like Wright—though not sure he can open at Reading—IMO it will be CLW and perhaps a July/August promo to Reading depending on his perfromance.

    5. I’d have Cloyd over Garner. A year and a half older but in AA vs short-season? Plus Garner’s thrown only 34 professional innings in two years. I get that Garner is projected to have a better upside, but he’ll be 23 next year with hardly any pro experience. I don’t think Cloyd has huge upside, but it’s very easy to see him as a 4 or 5 starter in the majors, while Garner is a long shot who’s already had injury issues.

    6. I’d have Lisalberto Bonilla above Garner as well. He had a big year and, so it’s been said, has a plus changeup. If it’s a true plus secondary pitch it should go a long way for him if he has any fastball.

    7. Thanks Alan, this gets things rolling. I figure there are probably 2 starters’ slots open for prospects at LHV next year. My guess would be Hyatt and Cloyd. I think there will be 4 or 5 slots open for prospects at Reading. May, Rodriguez, Pettibone are probably locks. I’m counting on Colvin turning things around but I think he starts at CLW before moving up. What do you think about double jumping Wright to Reading ? Make him next year’s Worley. He’ll be 22 in a week so he’s not old. I’d double jump him because he looks solid and he’s a lefty. He’ll stuggle a bit like Worley did but if he has the confidence, he’ll succeed in the longer term. Of course Matt Way might be back and he could go to Reading.

      CLW could have a logjam of guys. Colvin, Biddle, Buchanan, Claypool, Bonilla, Manzanillo, Way could start here, Hollands maybe, Shreve could end up starting, Wright if he isn’t double-jumped, There are a lot of guys in this group.

      Ramirez still needs a place. I think they’ll continue to start him and probably will begin in Reading.

    8. I think it’s easiest to respond to my own comment to talk about Garner. Baseball America rated him 21-22 based on scouting mostly. He was slow to get on the mound but when he did he struck out a batter an inning, struck out 3+ times as many batters as he walked and didn’t give up a home run. Seeing good performance to go along with the scouting was a huge bonus. It’s a bit of a leap, but I think there is definite talent here.

  3. Austin Hyatt looks like the 2012 version of Vance Worley as late season call up in the event of injury, jumping over JC. Next years’s Reading rotation performance will be a huge indication of the future. I wonder which pitcher makes the serious jump? Somewhat surprised that a rotation of JRod, May, Cosart, and Pettibone would not elevate Colvin’s game. Is it truly a case of injury or immaturity?

    1. Hyatt is a guy who seems to be on the edge of being a starting pitcher to be considered as a serious MLB possible. A problem is that he is subject to Home Runs and seems to give up big scoring innings now and again. He certainly doesn’t have a fast ball comparable to Worley’s, probably hitting 88-89 and “straight” whereas Worley’s has movement and is 92-93. It may be unlikely for Hyatt to gain another 2-3 MPH and movement on his FB and that might keep him away from the bigs. 2012 could be season of “proof” for him.

      1. Worley can touch 93 he’s not there consistently. Consistently he’s 88-91. His fastball is straight as an arrow except for that little sinker he throws in at lefties.

      2. We’ve heard varying reports on Hyatt’s velocity for years (after being drafted, word was that he was often sitting in the low 90s). I would bet he is sitting around 90 or so, given the lack of buzz surrounding him, but he must have some other really super pitches to be racking up the Ks the way he does.

      1. Supra98x….I think that John H. knew that—-he seems to be alluding to the fact that Colvin should have elevated his game this past year with those four baby aces and himself in that rotation.

  4. Is it me or does it seem like all of the starting pitchers we draft end up being atleast a level or two behind pitchers from the same draft class in different organizations?

    1. I have thought the same thing especially the Braves. However do you notice that the Braves young pitchers have a lot of injuries. I think the Phillies are very careful with pitchers and it seems to be paying off.

      1. Many of the Braves top starting pitching prospects are Latin signees–Teheran, Delgado etc.—if that means anything. As opposed to the majority of the Phillies top starting prospects who are draftees. Saids something as to the excellence of the scouting department in the states.

      2. I quess the Knapp thing sunk in. Too bad it took a top prospect to learn a lesson. Incredible that they were able to trade him.
        The Marlins are just as bad. Alex Sanabia went from 100 innings in 2009 to 170 last year(468 pitches in sept) only to develop a sore arm and essential miss this year as far as the majors go. There incredible stupidity with JJ has been discussed. Some under 25s can take a full workload too bad they don’t come with labels. Remember when Dontrell was held up as an example of a rubber arm youngster

    2. Phillies have no reason to push guys through their system while other teams do. Teams like the Braves have no choice but to force guys into ML roles because they have no other options.

      I expect the Phillies prefer to let their guys develop in the minors where they aren’t paying premium ML $$$ for developmental level performance. Part of the reason the Brave’s are fading down the stretch.

  5. Lehigh Valley – Hyatt, Edell, Cloyd, Ramirez, and a vet minor leaguer
    Reading – May, Pettibone,Rodriguez, Buchanan
    Clearwater – Colvin, Biddle, Claypool, *Way, *Hernandez, Wright, Bonilla
    Lakewood – Morgan, Garner,Manzanillo, Martinez, Nesseth

    *I think either Way or Hernandez if healthy will get a shot at Reading

      1. Who’s Braden Shull? I’m just messin’ with you. Since Shull is a HS kid, albeit a giant kid, he’ll probably play in the GCL. He’ll stay in EST and work on things they want him to master and at some point appear in a GCL game. Hopefully we see a lot of him in the GCL.

    1. I would love to see Hernandez come back. When he can pitch, he’s very good and it doesn’t hurt that he’s a lefty. He’s had two injury plagued seasons and he needs to get healthy and continue his progress. .

    2. Reading has the potential to be a dynamite rotation, especially if Colvin pitches well in A+ and moves up mid-season.

      1. They also have the potential to suck. They are some young guys who will be up against much better hitting than they are used to. Plus, May and J-Rod have fly ball tendencies which tends not to play well in Reading. It will be a fascinating year and I expect at least one of the three of May, J-Rod, and Pettibone to struggle.

  6. btw, i guess the phillies knew what they were doing in not calling up schwimer earlier. he’s been singularly unimpressive, often against mediocre hitters.

    1. Yeah, tell that to the usual bunch that maintains that every minor league pitcher the Phillies have is better than David Herndon or is a potential back end reliever.

      1. Well to be fair, tempting as it is to throw this in the face of the people who overvalue some of our minor league releivers, the consistent position – it seems to me – of the statistically literate among us should be to point out that it’s too soon to tell.

        1. Yes, over the long term its definately too early to tell what type of career guys like Schwimer will have.

          However, in the short term, it just illustrates again that minor league numbers don’t translate against major league batters and Anon VOR is correct to point out the folly of the constant calls for minor leaguer X to replace major league player Z because they are tearing up AA and they couldn’t be any worse. Truth is that yes they can be worse.

          I expect this will be proven again during the winter when we get the regular claims that Galvis will be just fine as the replacement for Rollins.

          1. Actually, it is an example that minor league numbers do tell you something. In the minors, Schwimer struggled against left-handed hitters but handled right handed hitters okay. So far, with the Phillies, in a very limited sample, he is handling right-handed batters, although too many walks (.174/.267/.361) and getting hammered by left-handed batters (.500/.526/.924). Kyle Kendrick has been much better against left-handed batters this season; maybe the Phillies coaching staff can help Schwimer the way they helped him.

            1. Sorry, I made an error in the slash line against right-handed hitters, it should be .174/.367/.261. 6 walks have inflated the OBP.

    1. Yeah but it’s kinda borderline for a lefty reliever. Maybe he’s got more in there somewhere, but it makes me wonder even more about his secondary stuff since he only threw fastballs.

        1. Dude, where did I say I was writing him off? I even said maybe he’s got more velocity in him. But after all the talk about his velocity shooting up and throwing 94, maxing out at 91 is kind of a letdown.

  7. my favor is moss cant even foul off a fastball this isnt triple a ,all i heard was this kid should be up why?? so late on fastballs its funny. guy has no chance

  8. Christopher Kissock is joining team Canada for their two international tournaments next month. (The Baseball World Cup and the Pan-Am Games.) Clearwater manager Ernie Whitt is managing the Canadians as well.

  9. Will Drew Naylor still be in the organization next season? If still around where do you think he will start the season?

  10. Love all the death knells sounding for guys getting their first taste of action or first in a long time. Charming. Nerves, end of season weariness, rust, luck, lots of stuff factor in. Many of these guys will likely be serviceable guys when they find their MLB legs. It may not happen or happen with the Phils, since they demand instant performance as a top team, but the Negadelphia stuff is not the most astute commentary, IMO.

    1. Ditto brother and add improvement over the winter from growth and knowledge obtained.
      Some people need DEPENDS

  11. this is the big leagues no excuses nerves for who a 28 year old career minor league like moss or a college closer like swim// LOOK they just been over rated by a lot of us. swim really has nothing outstandig to be a big league relief pitcher or starter.

    1. I think Schwimer will be just fine in the Phillies pen next season. Part of the benefit of late season call-ups is to give guys a sense of what they need to develop to succeed in the big leagues. His minor league stats are not meaningless. He s a smart guy, who will adapt.

      1. Agree. Schwim smart, knows how to set hitters up, and relies on multiple pitches thrwon on a dime, and keeping hitters off balance.

        As for the “no excuses for” statement above, Schwim doesn’t need excuses. He will man up to throwing a crap pitch and giving up a game. And then he’ll go out and pitch with all of the stuff he brings to the table and succeed most times. I would ask if the thousands of all-stars and hall of famers who have also given up HRs in tight situations also have no excuse. I really have a strong personal reaction to that no excuse type language. Makes it seem like the players are gladiators in the your personal baseball universe and you are an Old Testament one-chance-only, no-love-given God. Players, our children, and the people around us need more understanding than that.

        1. Schwim needs to learn how to pitch to left-handed hitters (see my post above). Since joining the Phillies they are 9 for 18 off him with two doubles and two homers. He has pitched well against right-handed hitters, although too many have walked.

  12. let me rephrase it then. imo swim isnt a big league relief pitcher on a pennant winning team better.moss cant hit a big league fast ball better

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