A quick word on Jason Knapp

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I’ve kind of been holding back, but I guess its time to just make a simple statement. He’s 18. He pitched in a Northeastern state, thus his workload/exposure was more limited than say, a kid from California. He’s a true 18 year old pitching in a league where the average prospect age is 19-20, with lots of 21-23 year olds. He’s gotten off to an awesome start. He has a big arm. He throws hard. Guys with 95-97 mph fastballs are supposed to be blowing away lousy/raw/unrefined hitters. But he’s made a total of FOUR starts. He’s thrown 24 innings in full season ball. There is absolutely ZERO upside in rushing him this season. The Phillies should continue to monitor his delivery and mechanics, as well as his innings. There’s no need to rush him to A+ this season. Tell me what the downside is in him staying in Lakewood all season, throwing 130-140 innings, striking out 160 and posting an ERA of 2.35, and then promoting him to Clearwater for next year? Here’s a test case in Madison Bumgarner. Bumgarner, a first round pick, was considered raw and many felt he needed time to develop because his secondary stuff wasn’t all that refined. He blitzed the SAL last year as an 18 year old (essentially 1 month older than Knapp this season), striking out 164 in 141 IP and posting a 1.46 ERA. The Giants left him in A all season, resisting the urge to rush him, and his secondary stuff improved throughout the year. He’s now their top prospect and one of the best prospects in the game, and his development wasn’t stunted because the Giants let him dominate the level he was at.

Bottom line? There is absolutely zero reason to rush him. Lets let him dominate at Lakewood this season, keep an eye on his arm and his pitches thrown, and then move him to Clearwater next year. He’s not going to make it to Philly before 2011 at the absolute earliest, and at that point he’d be 20. Everyone take a deep breath.

159 thoughts on “A quick word on Jason Knapp”

  2. I completely agree PP—-he will have many challenges before he gets to Philadelphia. Let him enjoy some success while developing.

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  3. His command is much better than anyone thought .
    Also my divorce lawyer always told me to take a deep breathe.Then we got our butt kicked.

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  4. There is in my mind no need to rush this kid , letting him pitch 6 innings a start at this young age is great. I Thought we are trying to develop talent, not ruin kids, why overuse and overmatch him it makes no sense.

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  6. To be fair, the Phillies have recently been extremely aggressive with promotions (Worley and Stutes, among others), and it hasn’t stunted their growth either. It would be silly to claim that there’s a right way or wrong way to do things. The Phillies should move him up when they feel it’s time to move him up. If that’s in two weeks, great. If that’s next year, that’s fine too.

    As for Bumgarner, he’s doing fantastic in A+ right now. Is it possible they’re not being aggressive enough with him? Certainly. Is it possible that letting him dominate A+ hitters and work on things is also helping him? Sure. The point is simply that no two cases are the same and it’s never obvious exactly what the right move with a pitcher is.

    Just take a look at Cole Hamels. He threw 200 innings in his entire time in the minors. Most people would say that’s not nearly enough, but it obviously was for him. Clayton Kershaw was in AA by the end of his first full season, although he was 19. We’ll see how they move Knapp, but I trust they’ll move him at whatever pace they think is right.

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  7. While I understand and support the view to let him dominate; I still believe if his peripheral stats and control support it; there is no reason to hold a prospect back – but not until you have a large enough sample to assess. We are not there yet.

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  9. James has this exactly right. Let him dominate and learn, keep him close so that the big-league execs can see him a few times, and then maybe turn him loose next year.

    I take the point about Hamels and his relatively few IP in the minors, but for one thing, that was as much determined by his injuries as his success when on the field, and for another, high school ball in southern California is way different from what Knapp got in NJ. I have to believe that Hamels, who might have been a top-5 pick if not for the health questions and already had a superior second pitch, was much further along at the same age.

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  10. let him develop in lakewood theres no need to rush him at this level usually fastracking begins at aa. mikemike take 95 n to 195 at trenton go east for 30 miles and youll see the signs.

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  11. I can’t say that I totally agree. The hitters get better as you go up each ladder and each pitcher needs to continue to refine what they throw and how they get batters out. Very good fast ball pitchers, as well as guys with terrific off speed stuff, frequently dominate in low A but struggle by the time they get to AA because their stuff isn’t good enough. Some pitchers need to see that their stuff isn’t good enough to truly work hard on developing their other pitches. The word I hear on Knapp is that he would make a perfect closer which only requires two pitches typically so we’ll see how the phillies handle him. I expect that he’ll finish the year in Clearwater but not get moved up until after the next draft and more players are filtering in.

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  12. There’s no rush with Knapp. The Phillies have been aggressive with other prospects, but most of them have been college kids who are more mature and have more experience than an 18 yr old kid out of high school. He hasn’t had a full year of pro ball yet. They should let him finish up at Lakewood and then go from there. He needs to keep working on his mechanics and off speed pitches. I saw someone mentioned Kershaw and Hamels. Those are two completely different situations than Knapp. Both Kershaw and Hamels came from warm weather states and they had an advanced off speed pitch which they could throw off their fastball. As of now, Knapp is still working to improve his curve and change so that as he moves up hitters can’t be sitting on his heater.

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  13. The condescending “everybody calm down” mandate aside, of course he should stay where he’s at.

    And for everyone getting excited, please continue to get excited. Shoot for the moon with your expectations for this kid. This is what makes baseball the greatest game ever invented. Don’t let know-it-all bloggers take that from you.

    I personally expect Knapp to win two Cy Youngs before he’s 25.

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  14. So we won’t be “Nuke LaLooshing” him from Single A to teh Majors???

    I agree completely with your sentiment. Maybe a very late year promotion to Clearwater but there is no reason to push him at his age. Maybe start making him work on his secondary pitches a bit more. Though I am wary of that as that’s part of what hurt Gavin Floyd when they didn’t let him use his curve.

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  15. @Murray…The word on Knapp as a closer was mostly based upon his mechanics and the thought that he wouldn’t be able to hold up over a full season as a starter. If the Phillies were able to clean up his mechanics and take some of the stress off of his arm, I believe he has the pitches to be a starter.

    Based upon the video I’ve seen of him this year (I haven’t and won’t see him in person this year), it looks like they’ve cleaned up the mechanics somewhat. Time will tell. The important thing is that they are still tinkering with his mechanics and should keep him where he is to work on repeating those mechanics in a low stress environment.

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  16. Looks like a scout is projecting Knapp in a Phillies uniform in three years. Interesting to note Hamels has a three year contract with another year under Phils control for the 2012 season.

    The beat writer for the Asbury Park Press Tony Graham in his April 11 blog reported the following:
    “Jason Knapp in the Show in three years? That’s what a big league scout told me today is a possibility”…

    After watching him pitch and conducting himself in minor league camp and what he has done in his four starts this year, I could project him appearing down the stretch for the pennant drive in 2011 if needed. A lot will depend on the development of Carrasco, Drabek, Stutes and Worley who are ahead of him right now for future rotation spots with the big team to with the incumbent under team control in 2011 Hamels.

    But I see nothing wrong moving Knapp up to Clearwater if he continues to dominate low A when Drabek moves to Reading and Stutes and or Worley move to AAA sometime during the 09 season. Right now Knapp is leading the Sally in strikeouts, innings pitched and is third with a 0.74 WHIP.

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  17. A no-brainer for me.

    Is there any great NEED to move him up??…i.e., is there desperation for pitching by the big club so that moving him up is urgent? No.

    Of course not.

    Taking a hard look at the pitchers in the system ahead of him in club classification shows plenty of pitchers for the big club doing very well.

    There is little benefit to be had for “rushing” him, and some risk in moving him too quickly.

    Next year in Clearwater! Or, at the very earliest, should he continue his outstanding work, move him up to high A in July or August this season so long as their coaches are satisfied with his mechanics.

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  19. How is pointing out that its early days “condescending”….? And where did I suppress anyone else’s opinion? I was simply chiming in with my own take on this.

    What is the upside of promoting Knapp in a month? He goes to A+ and pitches like he did in Lakewood. Whats the downside? He goes to Clearwater and gets hammered around. Then what?

    I think its important that he spends the season getting consistent instruction, takes a regular turn in the rotation, and focuses on repeating his delivery/refining his secondary pitches. It doesn’t matter if he is striking guys out in A ball or A+ ball. He has all the time in the world, there’s no point in rushing him at this point, in my opinion.

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  20. I think where Knapp ends up this year depends on how he continues to pitch. If he continues to give up 4.5 h/9 with a k rate of almost 14 k/9 it doesn’t seem to make much sense for him to continue beating on competition that isn’t even challenging him. While I would think there’s some value to honing his mechanics/secondary stuff in a less stressful environment, it’s hard to justify the worth of those improvements when he is simply shredding the competition regardless.

    Ultimately, let’s see where he is around the all-star break. We’ll have a large sample of his work at that point, we’ll know if he’s healthy, and the influx of draftees will begin to hit the system. Additionally, the other touted pitchers (Carrasco, Stutes/Worley, Drabek) are likely to be moving up the chain at that time as well. If the numbers are still absurd, let him have a crack at A+ for about 8 starts.

    Ultimately, he starts 2010 in Clearwater regardless and could finish that year in Reading if all goes well.

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  23. I’m tempering my expectations yet. It’s a long way yet to the Majors from Lakewood, and hundreds of great looking 18 year olds have bombed before the majors.

    As said, Knapp has development issues before he can advance. He needs to hone his secondary pitches and build up endurance to hold up over a full season. Can he do this in August with 150 innings of mileage on his arm? His minor league performances are immaterial to the big picture.

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  24. If this is just an expression of an opinion, why were you “kind of holding back” prior to this message? Clearly, based on the intro to your post it was meant as more than that. It came across as, “I can’t take anymore of this nonsense from you uninformed idiots so I’ll tell you how it is.” I’ve read a lot of opinions on whether or not to promote Knapp, but yours was the only one that told everyone with the opposite opinion to take a deep breath.

    It’s a big deal, but let’s not pretend that your post was just an expression of your opinion. It was more than that and you know it. That’s fine, it is your site after all, but let’s just call it what it is.

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  25. As long as we’re on this topic, how about the other guys currently lighting it up at various levels?

    Worley/Stutes are shredding at Reading (no pun intended) and Drabek/Schwimer have been dominant at Clearwater. What’s the timetable for them to move up, as all are more mature than Knapp?

    Lefty reliever Matt German is also dominating the competition at Reading. Someone posted on here last week that he’s an 82 mph junkballer…is that true?

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  26. I think the main thing here is that they need to monitor his innings and pitch counts, and make sure that he’s developing his secondary offerings. If they want to keep him in Lakewood to work on secondary pitches, great. If they think he’s advanced enough with those pitches by the time the new draft crop rolls in and they want to bring him up to A+ and challenge him, I’ll be fine with that too, as long as they monitor innings and pitch counts.

    Knapps delivery has been called out, so lets not compound it by overworking a great prospect.

    Not to get to far ahead, but hey, it’s fun to speculate, if he keeps on putting up stat lines like this for another two months, where do we put him on our prospects list (pitchers or hitters)? Number three, two…one?

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  27. I appreciate that our host posts his opinions.

    Governator- To me, Shwimmers an older guy (23 last time I looked) so I’d say if anyone should be on the fast track to get promoted it’s him right?

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  29. I too agree, and we should also talk about how many innings Knapp should throw this year. We’ve had some good discussions about the rule of 20…and I wonder how that rule applies to a pitcher breaking into professional ball. I wonder how many innings Knapp logged between HS and rookie league ball. You want the kid to log innings, but you don’t want him getting burnt out either.

    That all being said, I expect Knapp to develop a Joba Chamberlain-esque slider and a Pedro Martinez change-up to go with the heater he already possesses

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  31. PP you are right he is a baby, but for argument sake. If say he is just overpowering and has numbers like right now after 10 more starts, would you then think he isn’t getting enough of a challenge in lakewood, just wondering.

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  32. James has touched on the key point here: all of us can see the video game numbers that Jason’s putting up, but we can’t see how his mechanics look, how he’s been able to repeat his delivery, and what his secondary stuff looks like right now. That is the stuff that is of the utmost importance as the organization determines the way forward for Knapp.

    Personally, I’m not ready to categorically say that Knapp should not go to Clearwater this year, but it would need to happen under a specific set of circumstances. Obviously, he’d need to continue to mow down SAL hitters, but most importantly, the Lakewood coaching staff have to be convinced that all of the stuff I mentioned in the last paragraph (mechanics, delivery, secondary stuff) was humming along just great, and that they could turn him over to another coaching staff without fear of stunting his development.

    If all of the above factors are in place, then yeah, I wouldn’t mind seeing Knapp get bumped to Clearwater for the month of August to give him a taste of what he’s in for next year. But given his age and ability level, it won’t bug me in the slightest if the organization decides to err on the side of caution.

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  33. There’s a reason you don’t see many guys pitch in the majors at 19 or 20 – they aren’t ready.

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  34. ****That all being said, I expect Knapp to develop a Joba Chamberlain-esque slider and a Pedro Martinez change-up to go with the heater he already possesses****

    LOL…that’s quite reasonable to expect.

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  35. Whatever! “Ohhh lets keep an eye on his pitch count!” Sure! You’ve been hating on Knapp since they drafted him, PP you negative nancy. You just want to hold him back so you can look smart- I’m on to you.

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  36. **”Whatever! “Ohhh lets keep an eye on his pitch count!” Sure! You’ve been hating on Knapp since they drafted him, PP you negative nancy. You just want to hold him back so you can look smart- I’m on to you.”**

    Lol……….I’m hoping you’re being sarcastic.

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  37. Sorry James. It’s a great site and I visit it every day. But you do have a tendency to be condescending. The whole tenor of this post is condescending. From the very start, with the “oh, I have held back too long… and now it’s time to educate you poor people” to the ending “everyone just take a deep breath, you poor, uneducated Phillies’ fans.”

    I’m obviously not the only one who sees it. The Bumgarner comparison is rather incomplete. He went the way he did and it’s worked. This is much like the rookie NFL QB debate. Start him right away? Or leave him to observe for a year? Both ways have worked, yet the debate rages on.

    Not knowing young Knapp, I think he’s fine all year where he is. The Phils know him and their decision will be rightfully based on his maturity level more than anything. If he’s dominating the league he’s in and suitably mature, they may send him on — and that would be the right decision too.

    There’s not absolutely nothing wrong with appropriately challenging a young player who has the right maturity and has nothing left to gain from the level he is at. Obviously it is way too soon to make such a decision on Knapp. But it wouldn’t totally stun me if they promoted him midsummer.

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  38. This site has become a lose/lose for me. I get involved and I’m condescending, arrogant, and whatever other words go with it. I sit back and don’t say anything, and people complain I’m not active enough. I said I was “holding back” because I haven’t entered the fray yet to discuss Knapp’s fast start. It has nothing to do with me “educating stupid people”, I just felt maybe it was time to take a step back and look at the big picture. There were a few folks here two years ago who wanted Mach promoted to Clearwater after 2 weeks in the NYPL, and he ended up retiring that offseason. Sometimes people get ahead of themselves. I’ve done it in the past with prospects (D’Arby Myers), so it happens to everyone.

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  39. ****”Sorry James. It’s a great site and I visit it every day. But you do have a tendency to be condescending. The whole tenor of this post is condescending. From the very start, with the “oh, I have held back too long… and now it’s time to educate you poor people” to the ending “everyone just take a deep breath, you poor, uneducated Phillies’ fans.”****

    Jake:

    These were PP’s actual words:
    “I’ve kind of been holding back, but I guess its time to just make a simple statement.”

    “He’s not going to make it to Philly before 2011 at the absolute earliest, and at that point he’d be 20. Everyone take a deep breath.”

    How you find these quotes condescending is beyond me. What I got from it was, this is a 18 year old kid making his 4th start of the year so lets be patient with him.

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  40. You’re in a tough spot, no doubt. But don’t cry the blues. 75 percent of these posts are grateful and telling you what a great site it is. So don’t expect any sympathy.

    It’s just a good idea to avoid the lecturing tone. We’re all just fans. People get excited — even about D’arby Myers.

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  42. James –What a fantastic site!! Your contribution and opinions are so valuable to me. and I believe many of us.To my mind you have informed opinions and that is what I seek.Thanks for everything you do .

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  44. If I may toss my two cents into the ring here: I think it’s a tone issue that, unfortunately, is one of the byproducts of the Internet. I don’t think James is being condescending at all, but something clearly gets lost in the translation. I, for one, appreciate when he chimes in on a discussion, because he adds another educated, reasoned voice to the fray — and obviously the more, the better.

    If this post is a response to anyone, I’m guessing it’s a response to those in the “It’s ridiculous that Knapp, Drabek, and Carrasco haven’t been promoted yet!” camp.

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  45. I was.

    I agree with PP completely- I’ve been saying the same thing for weeks (albeit not with as much evidence and stuff)

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  46. I have two cents too.
    I dont know when it became unfashionable for people to argue . Like we are china dolls ready to break. People get excited god know i do. James dont get upset at us. You are doing a great thing even if we all dont agree. I took a lot of flack when one pitcher had a bad inning and another hurt but you know what i can stand it. Every thing has two sides so have fun with the weird debate. THAT IS WHY THEY RAISED THE FLAG

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  47. PP,
    You’ve honestly got one of the best sites on the internet, and you get a ton of traffic, so you’re gonna get some clowns on here. A ton of people act stupid on message boards and i think you take some of their posts too much to heart. Do you have a delete comments option? If so i would just delete any questionable comments and move on – there is a ton of great feedback/information on this site so keep doing what you do and don’t let a couple bad apples ruin it for you and everyone else. Our minor league system is (FINALLY) too exciting to not have a site like this around right now. Thanks again man.

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  49. Right on cue, the censorship guy shows up. Let’s kill any opinion that doesn’t agree with ours.

    (sigh)

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  50. NEPP,

    You think it will take that long? As long as he gets to Philly by September, I don’t see why he can’t contend for it next year.

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  51. Slightly of topic but Roth pulled 3.1 any reason??
    I think we should all roast some marshmellows and sing camp fire songs and relax oh popcorn too

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  54. PP,

    I agree with you–for now.

    I’d re-evaluate at about mid season, and then again with about a month left. It wouldn’t hurt to move him up to high-A mid or late season and continue to control his innings. I wouldn’t really mind a full year in Lakewood, either, but if he’s not being challenged by July, you have to think it’s something more than a small sample size effect.

    BTW, it’s bad form to come into someone’s home and crap on the floor. Give James the benefit of the doubt on tone, I’m sure you’d expect that from your own guests.

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  55. James,

    If you look around at other sites, you have to judge that your trolls are of a relatively benign variety. A blog without a troll or two is a blog without magic. And believe me, your blog has a good amount of magic.

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  56. A ball is where all the instruction and learning occurrs. At double A and above you are just refining what you’ve learned. Clearwater, Lakewood it really doesn’t matter.

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  57. Amen Erich, im a Raiders fan as well..goto their forum and see what trolls really are…great site James

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  58. i don’t even understand why this is a debate. of course he is right. anyone with any sense recognizes that you don’t rush an 18 yo. stutes and worley are horrible counter points as they are 22 with college experience. the goal isn’t to get to the bigs, it is to be productive when he is there. knapp needs to develop mentally, as well as physically.

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  59. Even if knapp went 8-2 2.25 at clearwater later this season, Next year went 7-3 2.75 at reading before being promoted to LHV wher he finished at 4-2 3.25, then what? Cole, jamie, either brett or blanton will all be signed. Happ will be the 4 or 5. Will he pass carasco, kendrick, worley, stutes, drabek, flande and savery. I’m not even mentioning guys like carp, brummett, garcia, cisco and naylor who are all ahead of him. I’m not saying he can’t pass some of these guys but all of them? not likely. I am very excited about knapp but would like to see him in lakewood for at least 3 months even if he is dominate and has secondary pitches going well for him. This kid could be special like drabek is special and want him to gain some confidence and learn how to pitch not just throw. If all he has is fastball he may have some succes at A+ but AA will eat him alive. just my humble oppinion.

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  60. Assuming Knapp stays the same and you want to take a conservative route, some signifcant time in Clearwate is important to guage his progress and what to work on next spring. be that August or mid July so be it.Marky Mark is right the logjam does exist. Savery pitching well last night shows
    the logjam is getting bigger
    Roth was hit by a ball last night anyword??
    Defratis joining the logjam???

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  62. PP Fan Says:
    i don’t even understand why this is a debate

    Let me respectfully reopen this. If you say there is no debate
    you negate others idea as worthless. What is rush for one may be the right level for another. That isnt even the point.
    you want to shut the door and not listen at all. What some of us are saying is that damage can be done in other ways. We
    may be wrong Knapp may not get sloppy pitching to guys he can blow away. And i may be wrong saying if he doesnt face situations (men on base) he cant learn but to say there is no validity in others. well. I can accept the fact that he is 18 and needs time but he isnt every 18 year old Baseball
    has enough “if that do this” ideas And up til this year they have served the phils well. Like they broke the Mold with Hamels, and broke the mold with Stutes and Worley at some point Knapp may be in that class too
    PP isnt wrong nor is he right he threw out this ideas that is why we are here right

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  63. Knapp is listed at 6’5″ 215,when he is 21 years old and say 6’6″ 235 ,as a closer he will be all over that 100 MPH

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  64. when knapp is 22 he will be 7’0″ and weigh 423 lbs. the wcw is drooling. hey m&m did you get my directions to lakewood. are the claws home on sunday? oh i forgot the mets are in town.maybe next week. gotta see these guys in person.

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  65. at 7’0′ 423,damn !!he should hit at least 115-118 on the gun,lets trade him for a righty bat off the bench

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  67. Just because somebody has a counterpoint doesn’t make them a “troll.”

    As I said, the site is terrific and I visit here every day. I have posted plenty in the past. I’ve been on a lot of forums and a few things are as predictable as the sun coming up every day.

    A certain segment will call for a ban on anybody who doesn’t share their opinion, quickly followed by the cliche that screams “troll.”

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  68. I will say one thing John no matter what size Knapp will be increased circulation to his arm and shoulder which is the key
    to maturity

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  69. nowheels please – debate for the sake of debate is a waste of time. debate on relevant arguments is why we post here. but it is stupid to push for an 18 year old’s promotion after 18 innings in major league ball. to declare “he has nothing left to learn” is just laughable. the point of the minor leagues isn’t to find out how fast someone can make it to the majors. there are no prizes for fastest to the majors. if you know anything about the history of baseball, you know about the long list of prospects that are rushed to the majors and fail because they break down mentally. these kids never recover no matter how fast their fastball is. if you ever played sports, you understand the mental aspect of the game. the maturity of a player and how fragile confidence is. arguing against that really is silly.

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  72. Who said anything about rushing to the majors dont read into my posts things that are not there. And why are you assuming
    Knapp has only a fast ball when others dont. I find it SILLY
    when u attach without reading

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  75. hm! the history of baseball,bob feller 18,dizzy dean 20,joe nuxhall 16, catfish hunter 18, and many others have made the show very young so the history of bb is replete with young stars.not to say knapp is in their league but to insult someone because they are possibly right when the past and present clearly demonstrate that many times players have jumped from hs. to the show, is unfair.and if anyone says it was the past check todays pitchers ages. once again i am not saying knapp or drabek or stutes or worley or is it flange? should be promoted only that their is plenty of precident for it happening. just an opinion.

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  78. nuxhall isn’t a good example he was fifteen and if I remember right it was one start, he got lit up and took him 5 years to get back.

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  81. John, I hate to keep picking on you, but …

    What do those names have in common? All of them are before the free agent era. Teams now have an incentive to wait until players are closer to their prime, so they get the best value for the pre-free agency years. Whether you think that strategy makes sense or not (it does), that’s how teams operate these days.

    To use Hunter as one example, if free agency had been in effect when he was brought up, he would have hit free agency just as he was hitting his peak. Rather than bolting for the Yankees on the downside of his career after a series of stellar seasons, he likely would have left the A’s after his first 20 game winning season, if not before.

    And let’s not even start talking about the many, many starting pitchers who starred at a young age, but whose arms were destroyed in the process. Simply put, the number of innings that a major league rotation starter pitches is too much for a very young pitcher. I know you aren’t much of a fan of “research,” but there is just a ton of evidence that increasing the workload of young pitchers too quickly causes serious arm injuries. Given his background, that seems to potentially be a serious risk for Knapp in particular.

    Also: “not to say knapp is in their league” kind of undercuts your point. The very few very young starters who were able to pitch well in the majors at a very young age were HOF caliber players (or would have been had their arms not exploded; see above). Projecting Knapp to that level is just silly.

    I can think of a couple other problems with your analysis, but that will do for a start.

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  82. Joe Nuxhall is a GREAT example. He pitched 2/3 of an inning at age 16…and then didn’t throw another ML pitch for 8 years. Dead on.

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  83. In real game news, notice Savery’s better performance and the fact that Zagurski is working his way back nicely closing in Reading last night. He could find himself in Philly sometime this year if someone gets hurt or tired. Can’t anyone hit in our system though?

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  84. The last 18 year old to win a game in the Majors was David Clyde, and he is exhibit A on the hazards of rushing a high school kid to the Majors. The only other pitchers to start more than 16 games in their teens in the last 40 years are Dwight Gooden and Bert Blyleven. The days of high school kids rushing to the Majors and dominating are gone. The game has become too advanced.

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  85. Sorry, two other things. I think Schwimmer should be promoted now and doesn’t DeFratus deserve a rotation spot at this point?

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  86. I think some people need to calm down. I rarely post on here since I don’t know enough about the players to make a real informed opinion but I trust PP. I’ve never really read a condescending post to the group. It is his site and honestly I think it is one of the best baseball sites on the net.

    He made a great post. If you disagree with him then you simply disagree with him. A disagreement does not entail condescension. I’m active in politics and I see it all the time in political debates. Disagreements are necessary in a healthy community but it is not healthy to accuse someone of condescension simply because they disagree with you.

    In regards to Knapp. I’d rather they never rush an 18 year old. Humans are not fully developed mentally or physically in these years. We reach full maturity in our mid 20s. I’ll be happy if Knapp is as confident and sure of himself as Hamels but I won’t be horribly disappointed if it takes him until 2012-13 to really help the Phillies. I only hope that the Phillies do what is best for him in terms of development. I’ll trust that they know what is best but I believe PP has a really good argument that deserves respect.

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  87. You guys for got Ruth he broke in at 19
    by 20 pitched 217 inning
    by 21 a 23 game winner
    by 22 complete 35 of 38 games (44 i think on the modern list)
    (only Feller has beaten him 1x

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  88. This whole debate is just a silly waste of time and bandwidth. Its like arguing with a wall. John is like 900 years old and all of his evidence irrelevant anecdotes from days gone past…. So just give up because arguing with him just gives him more opportunities to talk.

    Old people shouldn’t be allowed on the internet.

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  89. Murry how about German to Leigh and Schwimmer to Reading that shouldn’t give anyone a rash

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  91. Lakewood at age 18 is FAST track. It also has the advantage of being close to his home, more of a pitchers’ park, and not as stinking hot as CLW. Lakewood also seems to have a very nice roster that it makes little sense to bust up early in the season. Perhaps the draft signings will force some promotions, but I am in no hurry. Knapp definitely makes the majors on talent, the trick is to keep him from flaming out from injury.

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  92. did you really just bring up babe ruth as a counter point? babe friggin ruth? are you kidding?

    Murray – i wouldn’t get overly excited about savery’s last start. yes, he only gave up one run, but the rest of his stat line was not good. high whip and low k rate.

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  93. BooBoo i am not an old guy but am happy to have guys who have seen baseball from a different era and diferent perspective then many of us can. This helps me to keep things in perspective a little better. To say that older people should not be allowed to express their oppinions is arrogant and narrow minded.

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  94. Thanks I am old someday you might change that opinion.You can’t be young forever. PP I was thinking does Savery who I don’t believe is a top prospect, ever get a chance like ankiel to be a position player?

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  97. allentown I wonder how many kids are in that league at eighteen years old. you are right he by all rights should be at williamsport

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  99. once again larry you only read what you want i didnt say we should be propelling every young pitcher into mlb, i said a precident does exist if a pitcher if of high quality it is not insane and has historically happened for said pitcher to jump quickly. as far as not caring about research i will say this once so not to be self promoting i wrote a 100 page booklet for the hall of fame ,the one in cooperstown, regarding the greatest 30 players of all time. no big deal but it did take 3 YEARS. if you have any questions talk to gabe schecter at the hall. hes only there main researcher. but in all humility nepp no wheels rodeo 3up3 fish and just about anybody on this could do the same thing. this is not a site for personal agendas man i dont no what your problem is but since i have nothing against you please contain these agendas. as a matter of fact my origional statement was in regard to someone attacking another long time poster. and as far as picking on me ive argued with much smarter baseball men than you or i.

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  100. New top 10 pitching prospects:
    10-flande
    9-cloyd
    8-sampson
    7-bastardo
    6-savery
    5-worley
    4-knapp
    3-carrasco
    2-stutes
    1-drabek
    Hon. Mention-roth, schwimer,defratus,naylor,carpenter,cisco,garcia, brummett.
    Future top 10 pitching prospects: cosart,shreve,may, pettibone.

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  102. PP Fan Says:

    did you really just bring up babe ruth as a counter point? babe friggin ruth? are you kidding?

    counterpoint to what guys were posting about young pitchers
    believe or not u are not the center of the universe If you need to argue try some else

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  105. Chapman is looking pretty good isn’t he? I guess his age at his level is all that kept me from including him. I think my next guy would have been defratus and probably will if he returns to starting rotation which he certainly deserves. I actually dropped sampson from where he would have been a month ago but he is not showing much at this point. hope that changes soon he’s got talent.

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  110. Even if PP was being condescending what does it matter when you take into consideration that most of the argument against his being condescending is that people should debate and give their opinion the way they want…

    I didn’t hear any condescension in the tone it was written. He was making a statement that he felt wasn’t being given enough thought. The fact that the kid is very, very young and already playing against players who are older than him shouldn’t be ignored. There isn’t anything wrong with trying to temper expectations. Althoughhhhhh if he continues the route he’s currently on we could start seeing him start getting pretty high up on those national lists and become our #1 prospect. That’s just a feeling a can’t contain for the life of me!

    The amount of young quality pitchers we seem to have can’t help but make us feel excited about at least a few of them actually panning out!

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  111. “counterpoint to what guys were posting about young pitchers
    believe or not u are not the center of the universe If you need to argue try some else”

    Huh?
    He was just letting you know that using Babe Ruth as a counterpoint in ANY argument is rediculous. Really, using any HoF’er is absolutely meaningless.

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  112. Wow, all of this excitement over an 18-year old pitcher in the Sally league??

    As stated in a previous post, I’m in the “let him stay where he is for now” camp but I find the rancor and back and forth over this question rather amusing.

    Generally, I trust the organization will do what they think is best for Knapp, and while they are not always right, they certainly know more about this young man than I do.

    Since the organization has no reason to try to hurt or hinder his development by moving him too fast or holding him back, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt that they will move him when they deem it to be in his best interests.

    If that’s next week, great. If its next year, that is fine too. I agree with PP that nothing will be lost by him finishing the season in Lakewood vs. moving to Clearwater.

    At his age, its all about learning to be a professional player and logging productive innings.

    One other item to consider. Since he is an 18-year-old NJ kid, the team may want to keep him in Lakewood so he is closer to home and feels more comfortable.

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  115. What does 3up have to do with it? PP fan was the one who called you out and I was just backing him up. If you’re going to argue with people atleast figure out who your arguing with.

    PS Not only was Ruth playing in a completely different era, but he was BABE RUTH. Even bringing him up was completely rediculous.

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  118. Sadly the big club does not believe in young closers,can you name one that was younger than 28, most were low to mid 30’s

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  119. I read this blog once in a while, nothing extreme. I was reading the post and saw all of the comments. I have no allegences whatsoever, but you guys gotta calm down. No reason to rip the creator of the site for chiming in. If you don’t like his opinion, go read somewhere else, it’s that simple.

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  121. Good point J.J. Personally I tend to like it when James jumps into the fray as he has very solid opinions and backs them up with legitimate facts and statistics. He probably has more knowledge of the Phillies minor league system than anyone not actively working in the Phillies system.

    Also, that’s a good article EDGE. Thanks for the link.

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  123. New to the site and even newer to posting here. I have some observations on a number of topics.

    PP’s comment did not strike me as condescending. I think some of you were reading something into it that wasn’t there.

    BooBoo Magoo: Your comment was reprehensible. Just substitute “Women,” or “African-American” for old people and think of what it sounds like. I do not appreciate being told I should stay off the internet simply because of my age.

    (The former teacher in me comments) to whoever used “dominate” as an adjective (as in, Knapp is “dominate.”, dominate is a verb. A pitcher can be dominant (the adjective) or can dominate the opposition, but no one can be “dominate.” Lesson ended. (unless someone asks for more, but I’m not holding my breath – you don’t come onto this site for English lessons.)

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  124. Maybe I should be banned from the internet because I can’t proofread. The name is, as here, judas_priest.

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  126. I have a few things to say. First, I think it is really important that we show respect to our fellow posters and of course our host. If you are a regular reader/poster to this site, then you know that I am all for attacking the opinions of other people, as long as I can support my side of the argument with facts. However, there is no reason to attack the actual person. Lets just try to keep that in mind.

    judas_priest, welcome aboard. I hope you bring some fresh opinions with you, but you might want to drop the grammar lessons. If not, I am afraid you will soon find yourself needing to write entire chapters in order to fix all of the grammar mistakes.

    Finally, the topic of the day, JK! I find myself siding with PP’s viewpoint, as I have stated in previous posts that involved Knapp. The only potential negative I can find by allowing Knapp to continue at A ball is that he may not be in a Phillies uniform as soon as he may otherwise be if he were to advanced to A+ right away. On the other hand, If Knapp is rushed, the possibility of Knapp becoming a failed prospect increases. I would much rather take the chance that Knapp is in Philadelphia one year later then the chance that he becomes a non-prospect.

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  127. judas excellant point regarding any ” ism” although i am not as old as some may think unless the 50,s is now considered the equivalent of methusela to our younger friends there is only one alternative to ageing one which i hope will take its time for all of us.

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  128. Vance Worley dominant again. Sampson pitching well but still no K’s (lots of grounders though)

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  130. mm i know your being facetious since we are contemporaries. i feel like weve been placed in “a clockwork orange”. any way enough of this im watching myers pitch with timidity again. the paper will say he had a quality start. probably the worst stat in baseball.

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  131. quality starts are the creation of agents trying to get bigger contracts for their pitchers. It sounds good, but really, how quality is 6 innings and three runs. thats a 4.50 ERA. thats just average, not quality.

    p.s. I’m 19, nnew to this site, newer to posting, and have really enjoyed most of the posts by the older guys on this site.

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  132. Thanks JPD baseball has changed but the history is great and you are right about quality starts I look at team win more than
    some other stats

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  135. the one think about James’s post that still bothers me is this

    **Guys with 95-97 mph fastballs are supposed to be blowing away lousy/raw/unrefined hitters**

    i know he softens it by saying:
    ** He’s a true 18 year old pitching in a league where the average prospect age is 19-20, with lots of 21-23 year olds**

    but i just don’t see it as simply he throws hard so he is striking out a lot of people in A ball. that seems to be an over-simplification of the cause for his great results. i would bet that there have been a ton of pitchers come through A ball that throw that hard, but don’t get his results.

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  136. I miss when this site was smaller and it was james and ol grandad and art d arguing over greg golson and draft and follows.
    nowheels there is nothing fun about debate for its own sake, and we are no sissies for thinking so, and PLEASE take a refresher on punctuation. Intelligent debate is fun. Ideas are fun. Watching (or reading) stupidity being hurled back and forth is not fun, it’s worthless.
    This site is a perfect example of the negative side of fame, or in this case internet popularity.
    Thats was a condescending post. That’s what they look like. Not what phuture wrote.

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  140. PP Fan, many of the comments that have come out after Knapp’s great strikeout performances are about whether his secondary stuff is being utilized effectively or whether or not he’s just blowing these hitters away with his heater. This makes it pretty apparent that many have this stigma about hard throwers at the level Knapp is currently in. When you hear commentary about him they preface the praise by saying that his off speed stuff is coming along and he has been using that with his fast ball. It isn’t just as easy as getting the ball over the plate as quick as possible, but if a pitcher has control over that pitch it is a major weapon.

    We should be happy that he’s started out so well, but a season is very long and let’s just hope he keeps it up at whatever level he’s in for the rest of the year.

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  141. agentlinden I am sorry that is your view . I am not a great typist.
    Here is another stupid thought just for you Knapp has pitched out of the stretch 21 times in four games. Some because of bad defense. Do you think that is a adequate learning experience?????
    It is only debate for debate’s sake if you can not understand the counterpoint.

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  142. What kind of generation are we raising, As a fifty year old man ,who was raised to respect people. I open doors for people, last week a old lady was in pathmark and didn’t have enough money for a cheesecake, so me and my wife bought it for her, we were raised to respect people ,on here its if your over 50 just go die and if you don’t have proper english your a idiot. This is a disgrace thank god never had money but lucky my kids and I have something money can’t buy a respect for others rights. Sorry but I know its about sports but lately its getting too personal.

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  143. mikemike
    Dont waste your time. Maybe he wont get old. I used to play bridge on the net. You could not believe the “visitors” there
    mostly pure sewerage.

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  145. Unless he is getting by purely on his fastball and needs to be pushed to develop his secondary stuff they should take their time with him.

    Also you guys jinxed Stutes tonight as he had his worst start to date. 2 Innings 4 Runs 8 Hits or something.

    I still see Sampson as one of our better starting prospects. Check out his ground ball rate . . . GO/AO 2.40 that’s in extreme ground ball territory. If he can develop command of his stuff and keep working on his secondary stuff we could have another great prospect on our hands.

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  147. agentlinden, isn’t that what this sight is about, debate for the sake of debate? this is not real life, this is baseball the game that i grew up loving but compared to the struggles that people face everyday this is just a place to leave it behind and talk about something that we love discussing. If you find someones comments stupid than just keep reading on. why do you waste your time responding to them?

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  148. marky mark
    Please note that the people who down others rarely say anything useful about baseball.
    I hope Stutes isnt hurt they pulled him quickly best quess a blister.

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  149. The Reading paper said he was 96-98 on the gun,but got behind in alot of counts,this is his first bomb,
    Now we can see how he deals with it

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  151. If he was hitting 96-98 it might explain the loss of control. Sounds like he was trying to impress someone by overthrowing.

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  152. From what I remember reading, Stutes has always had control issues. I also remember hearing that Reading’s gun is a bit “fast.”

    – Jeff

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  153. The big brass may have been there,I don’t know but they did have a night away from cbp
    I still can’t get over he was an 11th rounder

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  156. I don’t believe it my self ,just stating what paper said
    but it at least tells you his sh#@#% outing was not due to injury,

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