For those of you who can’t resist talking about potential trades and the big league club, use this post for the rest of the week and keep the chatter out of the Top 30 voting posts. Also a note on the Top 30 voting. I thought that I wouldn’t need to babysit, and that people would just vote once. But apparently that’s not the case, so from #8 forward, I’ll have to restrict voting based on IP addresses. Thus, once your IP address votes, that’s it. If you are using broadband and a static IP, that shouldn’t cause a problem. If you use a dialup service, it might, or it might not. Sorry for the trouble, but its not my doing.
329 thoughts on “Weekly trade talk discussion”
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Phuture Phillies 
I thought you should have done that anyway, haha. Oh well.
On to the topics.
1) In no way do I want to trade Donald for Delmon Young. I don’t trust the guy. He has hit pretty well since being in the Majors but the power hasn’t developed and he strikes out too much for a guy with, at the moment, not a lot of power. That said, he is 23 but, I still don’t like him.
2) In no way do I want to give Happ up for DeRosa. Unless they are planning on turning him into a 3rd baseman, I don’t get the move. Once Utley’s back you are putting putting a 21 HR guy on the bench?
Oh well. Anything more I’ll put on later.
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I haven’t heard anything about Delmon Young for Donald, and if there was that deal out there we would be fools not to do it. Young has a much higher ceiling and is a legitimate 5 tool talent. I do agree with Joe about any possible Happ Derosa deal.
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There was all kind of talk earlier but it seems that the Twins wanted more. Also, the Phillies arn’t too excited with Utley being hurt.
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Delmon Young: 1,346 at bats in the majors. 26 homeruns. Not exactly a replacement for Burrell. Donald needs to stay in the organization, Utley just had hip surgery. Timetables for that type of injury are suspect. And please stay from former farm-hand Nick Punto! read one of the Twins blogs and you’ll see why. Why doesnt this guy advertise? make some money on this great site why dont you?
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Donald for Young is somewhat intriguing though. Delmon Young is only 23 years old and already has 2 full seasons of pro experience under his belt, while Donald is a year older and has made it to AA. The guy is a former first overall pick and has proved to be at worst an everyday starter who will hit for a decent average. He also bats right-handed, so he’d fit in well with the lineup. He’s still young and was hitting in the pitcher-friendly Metrodome, so it’s reasonable if the power isn’t quite there yet. Initially, I’d pull the trigger on this deal, but with Mayberry, Taylor and Brown in the system, I would rather have Donald to take over at 3rd. However, I wouldn’t be incredibly disappointed if they traded Donald to get him.
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Not sure where the rumor came from, but I doubt the Twins would trade Young for Donald straight up. Young is definitely the better asset. He’s a year younger than Donald and has already played in the majors for 3 years.
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Here’s one:
“Salisbury reports that in a proposed multi-team trade, DeRosa would go from the Chicago Cubs to the Phillies. The Phillies would send the Cubs a prospect or two, which in turn could be sent to the San Diego Padres in a package for pitcher Jake Peavy. Lefthanded pitcher J.A. Happ is one of the prospects the Phils could part with. There were rumblings that the proposed deal could include a fourth team, most likely the Baltimore Orioles.”
I’m not sure what I think of this. DeRosa is a nice bat for a middle IF (while Utley is gone) but you’re kinda wasting him in LF. The logic is also a bit strange: You’re getting DeRosa as a band aid for next year, but you’re also strengthening your chief NL rival much more. I do think Peavy will become a liability in future years b/c of the contract, but next year the Cubs rotation would be downright scary.
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Happ for DeRosa? Ugh.
Happ isn’t anything special, but in all likelihood, he’ll be an effective back-end starter — one the Phils will control cheaply for 3+ years. Trading for DeRosa solves the issue of which RH bat you’ll platoon in LF, but he’s only got 1 year at $5.5 million left on his deal. So you’re eating into your payroll (more than you would if you signed, say, a Juan Rivera for $3 million per) and removing your leading candidate for the open 5th starter’s job from the mix.
Unless the Phils are planning to either sign 2 free agent starters — or to hand Carrasco/Kendrick/Eaton a job in the rotation — then I’m not a huge fan of that deal.
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everything ive read above is insane. if their is any deal to be made the only one is peavy for any one but donald. derosa for happ young for donald once again chicago ends up with our best inf.prospect ala 1981. i know were hungry for action but no action is the best action. yeah lets destroy our minor league system once again, iknow donalds and marsons grow on trees. why would minn. with one of the best developmental systems want to trade the vaunted young, because they know they made a mistake last year and they know donald is more valuable. maybe we can get the 5 tool lastings millage for carrasco next.
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Thanks for starting this thread James, the Scout.com forums are quiet.
A question for those smarter than I. Young signed a major league contract coming out of the draft which expires at the end of next year. How does that affect his arbitration status for the next 3/4 years until he gains 6 years service time?
Happ for DeRosa would be a major mistake. It’s bad enough the Phillies need to dig up one mid-line starter they’d be stretched to find a 5 to take Happ’s place. Someone already said Eaton.
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Oh, and if we’re talking trades here does anyone have any opinions on the haul the Rangers got for Laird? It doesn’t seem like much to me but I could be wrong. Either way it should put the dreams anyone has of trading Jaramillo or Coste for much more then a bag of doughnuts to rest.
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This is essentially where Happ is very valuable. He is our way to keep Eaton out of the rotation. It’s much better to have a 12-15 game winner at the back of the rotation rather than some extremely inconsistent guy with a 5+ era. Happ is MLB ready, and losing him for a guy like DeRosa would be a major mistake.
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The Delmon Young trade is completely seperate from the DeRosa/Peavy/Happ Rumors.
Basically, one rumor was Donald going to the Twins for Young(shot down because the Twins want more, and the Phillies don’t want to give up Donald) and Happ going to the Cubs for DeRosa or Marquis to help with the Peavy trade.
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What are you talking about? Chicago wouldn’t end up with any of our prospects in any of the proposed deals. Let it go.
If they could get Delmon Young for Jason Donald, you do it in a heartbeat. 23 year old potential stud, tons of upside, and has already proven to be a league-average or better hitter at a young age. Donald hasn’t even had a MLB at-bat yet and is a full year older. Come on people. The comments during trade season (midseason, winter meetings) here are ridiculous to try and follow because this community vastly overrates our own prospects.
As for Happ & Coste for Derosa & Marquis, as reported, that seems ok to me, not great but not terrible. Derosa is a really useful guy who can play multiple positions and give you .360+ OBP with 20 HRs from an INF spot and play LF. It’s funny, everyone loves Jason Donald at 3rd, when he projects to be what I just described at best, but no one wants to get Mark Derosa, who already is that. Doesn’t that seem ridiculous to people?
Happ I like a lot, but he still projects as only a mid-rotation starter at best, and Marquis would likely give you the same thing this year as Happ, if not better. Coste is obviously a throw-in, not much of a loss when you have Marson ready.
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Assuming Moyer resigns, there is not much room for Happ in our plans. Hamels, Myers, Blanton, and Moyer will be locks. Then, would you rather have Happ or Carrasco? I think all of us want to see the latter. Happ has some value right now, so why not use him to fill a hole for a year. The market for left fielders isn’t all that great for the dollar. Plus, a subtraction of 15 homers isn’t that bad when you see DeRosa hits 290, drew a lot of walks, and drove in 90. This seems like a pretty reasonable trade except for 1 thing…
WHY THE HELL WOULD WE HELP THE CUBS GET PEAVY!!!!!
…common sense here people.
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I don’t think anyone here would be happy to throw Carrasco into the rotation without a backup plan not named Adam Eaton, Ed.
I have to stop posting here and finish my presentation for tomorrow.
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I think De Rosa is close to a done deal.. Utley out for another 6 Months at Least?// Then some time in Minors and will he be the same player directly playing in the Majors in maybe 8 Months?
Phillies management need an every day proven 2B from day 1.
They are not going to rely on Donald until later in the season when he moves up.
I wont even guess who they trade but Coste for sure + ???
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If it’s DeRosa it’s for Happ who will be turned around as part of the Peavy deal. I hate it already. We’ll re-vote for #7 or just give it to D’Arnaud I guess. Drat, I hate it.
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I wish you could edit here on this blog instead of adding to your own post.
Phillies just won the WS… they don’t need to make changes too much unless needed.
All of a sudden a big hole at F4 with Utley gone for some time 6-8 months I reckon and then who knows how he will perform after such invasive surgery. They need proven MLB F4 like NOW.
Moyer good numbers but 46 yrs old. Phillies offering him 1 year 10 Mill max… Smart move but he wants 2 years 20 Mill knowing he may be at end of career.. also smart.. so stale mate.
I have no idea who you trade from minors But Phillies need 1 new Starting Pitcher for sure and 1 decent proven F4.
I’m not sure you need Delmon Young for the OF in a 3rd trade. But Phillies may just need 2 MLB player trades at most, possibly 3 for season start… Coste is the obvious first bargaining chip with the catching depth. Marson must be ready for sure + Ruiz with Jaramillo waiting in the wings.
If you lose both Happ and Carrasco would be bad. I’d hate to see more than 1 of the Pitching Prospects go but you can afford to lose at least 1 Middle Infielder and 1 Catcher prospect.
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anyone who has SEEN donald play knows he is mlb. ready. at this point in time happ is a better pitcher than carrasco. of course the twins want more its called negotiating.amaro says no twins say your too tough for us rube well just take donald and laugh as they leave the meetings. its like trading bowa for dejesus and green saying oh by the way thorow in that kid sandberg.
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no matter what the sport there seems to be a level where too many studs spoil the soup, cant tell you why but being around 66 years counts for something. If young is so great why trade him. Minnesota makes great deals (eg conning the Marlins into drafting Santana then trading for himm,their closer etc)
Leave it alone Happ stays even if you propose some rotation injuries HAPPen.
If have stated before the Phils need to run baby run to negate McCann and Baker DeRosa has 18 steals caught
13 times career not whats needed here.
I have said McLouth is a fit here and also said trade with the dummies
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Just pondered over Young stats he doesnt steal well, he doesnt get on base, the hits for average and this would be his third trade despite success This would be a classic dummy
trade
We need players who have what we need is anything easier
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Oh hell the cubs would luv the Phils to take on J Maarquis
to clear payroll for Peavy. Great Ruben we can be the cubs
farm team. Kansas City to the old Yankees. If you have to do something get Lowe and sit on your hands
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i dont know where this d. young talk started but it is ridiculous. he has steadily gone downhill from 2004 in the minors to where his mlb. 3years, are .290 ave, 5 hrs,50 rbi,s 4-1 so to bb ratio 60 runs, per season. certainly someone i would build my team around. i guess the twins cant dump him fast enough. what i hear is abreu or ibanez on a 1 year contract. just what we need another lh bat. especially abreu. if your jonsing for a deal how about c. lee from uncle eddie. please stop with the insanity,leave the champs alone,bring up donald,marson,and happ for good if mayberry doesnt work pick up a rh bat for lf. someone like ,i dont know, pat burrell. DONT DO ANYTHING UNLESS YOU CAN GET PEAVY. or cantu,yes i havent forgotten jorge and he,s on the block. good points nw.
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nowheels please Said :
“If you have to do something get Lowe and sit on your hands”
You may well be right.. Just Won the WS so make only small changes if really required.
Why go chasing when you have talent like Donald who can play F4 well until Utley is possibly back mid season. I hate to push the Aussies again But I can tell you that a fair chance Harman WILL be the F6 or F4 for Australia in the WBC. It will be interesting to see how he goes before the MLB season starts. But another possible F4 Backup and with limited MLB time already.
The only way Harman wont be in the WBC is if Phillies shut him down. Naughton is #1 or #2 catcher for WBC Aussies if Phillies let him.
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just heard on mik and mike by olney that the phillies sending young talent to the cubs for derosa so the cubs can get peavy is real. i may be naive but doest it make more sense not to help the cubs. and to deal our young talent directly to the pods for peavy. money talks im sure peavy hears it or will we hear the same bs about salaries. if this happens amaro will be rightfully be pilloried.
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just checked out peavy. hes only due 6.5 mil this year,if i understand this right. most sorces say vitters marquis for happ and coste, who will then go to pods for peavy. insane,yes but possible in the minds of the ill. how about carrasco and coste and anyone except donald or marson.
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Beyond the player this trade could mark the gm as an idiot
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I didn’t realize the Phillies had starting pitching to spare. Hm.
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Are now junk collectors and bottom feeders like Detroit
we need to : RUN BABY RUN
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I for one love the Happ for Derosa deal. First, I fully expect the Happ love to be a distant memory in 2 or 3 years. The odds he is anything more than very replaceable backend rotation filler are quite small and flipping him for Derosa is a very good use of resources. Frankly, I’d be surprised if Happ is the linchpin from our end, which could change my position, but if he is, I’m all for it. The only way this could turn out badly is if they think he’s the big righthanded bat to replace Burrell. That would be a mistake. But DeRosa is one of the 2 or 3 most valuable utility players in the game right now as he is an above average bat at any infield position not 1b, and an average bat in LF. He’s a competent or better fielder at all of them. He has no great platoon split. All that for a fringe lefty? Sign me up. But again, I can’t imagine the second prospect won’t be of some significant value as well, because Happ is not enough.
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i think that you guys are way over reacting. it might be for one of two reasons. 1. i am under estimating happ or 2. you guys are biased to our farm. obvisously i think that it is #2. i think that we fall in love with our system, but there is nothing to suggest happ becomes anything more than a #5 or #4, if that. i have not seen one report to suggest he is a mlb stud. he pitched a few good games and also some bad ones. they used kid gloves with him last year, so not enough data. but he is certainly nothing more than a #5 next year and then he would have to compete with CC and others. getting a good bat like derosa would help us significantly. it would also create payroll space to go after lowe or other quality pitchers.
and to the question “why would we help the cubs”? it isn’t about helping the cubs. if it is a good deal for us, then they are helping us. each trade is an independent event. so if the first deal helps us more than it hurts us than we do the deal. irregardless if they turn around and ship some of our prospects in another deal. derosa is a high ob% and high ba guy. he also can play numerous positions. this guy helps us big time.
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I dont under stand why we would trade prospects for a temporary 2b replacement? Couldn’t we resign Iguchi and let donald compete with him for the starting job for the first month…if we need someone that long?
Also, I read the the Twins GM/coach really doesn’t like Young’s personality, and has stupidly criticized him to the media. I guess Ruben feel Charlie is the guy to manage that personality. I would personally trade Donald for Young, but then that takes away my first comment haha.
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rodeo the phils DONT have pitching to spare, unless they get back peavy. as far as utley, i will bet,not being a doctor, that utley is ready at the latest may,probably april. if this happens it will force them to sign moyer,not bad,or go after lowe competing against the yanks.i repeat having seen both pithers happ is ahead of carrasco at this point until carrasco learns to control a 2nd pitch. contrary to the daily prospect blogs the phils only have 3 mlb ready players. happ, donald, and marson. unless carrasco has developed over the summer,which is possible he is not ready for the show. so who is your 5th starter kendrick, i doubt if eaton will be here i pray im right. i cant believe we are not negotiating with pods directly, we have more than the cubs to offer. derosa in lf ok but not for happ. im getting sick i smell wade.
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Honestly, although I liked the Mayberry trade, Amaro is beginning to scare me a little bit. In a way, I understand why Burrell and Moyer were not offered arbitration. They will be more expensive than they are worth and you won’t know the salary until February, which makes it harder to plan. Still, would it be all that bad to have Pat Burrell back for another year, albeit at a somewhat high price, and allow hitters such as Taylor, Mayberry and Brown to develop. Or, instead, is it worth it to sign Ibanez, a 36 year old player, and lose draft picks. Frankly, an Ibanez signing appears to be a very stupid and short-sighted move.
As for a Happ/DeRosa trade, I wouldn’t mind the trade so much if we knew that Moyer would be here. But if he’s not here, why are you ridding yourself of a good replacement for a utility player who is 34 and has probably just had his best season.
It is difficult to be the general manager of a championship team because the expectations are so high to repeat. However, there are two big mistakes that GMs and teams make in this situation. One is a stand pat mentality – the team does nothing because it just won. If your team is the 1975 Reds that’s a fine strategy, but, other than that, you need to keep improving. I think the Phils’ understand this. The problem, however, is how do you go about improving? The biggest mistake a team can make is to overpay (either in money and/or in talent) for experienced players in an attempt to extend the team’s run for another year or two. This often results in a team sacrificing near-ready major league talent for an older or more experienced player. This strategy is often a disaster. The best strategy is the balanced one that the Red Sox employ. Regardless of what they do to acquire new players, they are sure always to promote and retain young talent. This way, the Sox always have more payroll balance and they keep the core of the team young. The Phils can and should do this. If they don’t sign Moyer, three of their biggest needs will be left-handed starting pitching, catching and third base. Their three most ready prospects can fill these positions. In an effort to be ready to “win now” they are overlooking the obvious. Let these young guys come up and do their jobs. If it doesn’t work, you can go to plan B (Gillick’s greatest strengths – working back-up plans and obtaining redundant talent).
We’ll see . . . but I am beginning to get concerned.
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P.S. I think you guys should try to get this site on SB Nation. I am not sure how getting a page works, but they have a very nice forum layout that allows you to respond to individual comments. You would probably also get a bunch more readers. Check out http://www.thegoodphight.com or http://www.bleedinggreennation.com for examples.
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Peavy has a NTC he won’t waive for Philly or Boston…weird. Your guess why is as good as mine.
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anonymous good evaluation of strategy
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to roughrider i bet he would waive it for a few mil xtra.
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Phillies say Young is far down the list of guys they are looking at. I don’t see Donald being traded.
Here is the REAL rumor.
To Orioles: Felix Pie,OF
To Cubs: Jake Peavy, RHP
To Padres: Garrett Olson (from Orioles through Cubs)
J.A. Happ, Chris Coste (from Phillies through Cubs)
Josh Vitters, (+ other or others like Sean Marshall, Ronnie
Cedeno , this part is unfinished.)
Peavy will only approve trade to Cubs.
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Oh yeah,
To Phillies: Mark DeRosa
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The above is from CBS Sportsline.
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This deal is so dumb on so many levels. Derosa is going to be 33 freaking years old, and being a college quarterback I’d be willing to bet his body is more like 36. We have Jason Donald a younger guy who could easily post a +97 OPS, which is Derosa’s career average. We are helping the Cubs get a top 5 pitcher!!! We’re giving up JA Happ, a perfectly serviceable 5th starter, THAT WE WILL NEED THIS YEAR. Rube, don’t do it. Don’t be a moron.
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marfis i read the same thing to hell with peavy if 3 mil xtra wont change his mind. seth everett just said burrell will possibly be forced to sign a 1 year deal. utley will be ready if not play donald. dont trade happ.dont help the cubs because there is no need for derosa. i dont give a damn play donald in left if need be. happ is more valuable to THIS team than derosa.you want a left fielder who hits rh trade for cantu. much better player than anyone mentioned here. hes on the block. floridas history they will take lower level minor leagers. cantu will hit 30 hrs 100 rbis ave.280 for the next 7 years.
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pat – you are under rating the value of derosa. he has a .376 ob% last year with 54 xbh and good defense all at $4.8 mil. those guys don’t grow on trees. yes, he is a short term solution, but he provides back up to 2nd base, 3rd base and left field. this trade makes a lot of sense. first, it unquestionably helps us win next year. you can not make the argument that we wouldn’t be better next year with derosa over happ. and in the long run, i really don’t think that it hurts us. happ is a nice #5 starter. those are easy to replace. a year from now CC will be ready and there are other FAs if he isn’t. also, it clears so much salary for next year as it allows us to not re-sign burrell. so now we can go after another starter. i think that it is a great trade. not a good one. a great one!
also, it clears a space for marson to make the big club.
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also, happ is 26, so not exactly a spring chicken. meaning, his ceiling is capped.
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I’ve been to a few Corporate Sales weekends on brain storming Missions:
Lots of people come up with great Ideas how to improve the Company but Guess what. Unless Driven by Top Management and just focussing On 2 Key Issues.. Nothing gets better.
I’d say keep the Big Club Changes small… Trade for 1 new F1 Starter and maybe F4 or OF . Trade Coste yes.. he will land on his feet somewhere.
Don’t trade away all that great Minors talent just yet. Maybe just 1 or 2 if you really must.
Marson, Donald and Happ MLB ready now…. Move them up. Or trade 1 at most.
Guess What.
I’m actually a Dodger fan but I think the Phillies Minors system is quite amazing and so well run and I love to follow all the Aussies.
I have no interest in the Dodgers Minors system at all. Only their Big Club but I might start cheering more for Phillies soon… My son has Phillies Cap he loves.
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PP Fan: while I appreciate what DeRosa does, I just don’t think trading 6 cost-controlled years of Happ is worth 1 year of DeRosa. You’re right to say that 5th starter’s are easily replaceable… but who do the Phils have to replace Happ right now? Kendrick and Eaton can’t be counted on, and Carrasco should start in AAA.
My alternative would be to use Donald to fill in for Utley while he’s recovering and sign Juan Rivera to give us our RH bat for LF (which would probably cost something like $7 million over 2 years). That leaves Happ to compete for the 5th starter’s spot — meaning you don’t have to sign someone like Paul Byrd at 1-year, $4 million for that job. Between no DeRosa and no Byrd, you’d be saving yourself something like $5.5 million with no huge drop-off in production.
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pp fan obviously you think derosa would be an improvement over playing donald.i wonder when we should start playing donald. if number 5,s are so easy to find give me one with the ability of happ.by the way howard was 25 no spring chicken.
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I just don’t think Derosa can replicate the year he had last year in his age 33 season. Last year was basically a career year, we have a guy in Donald that can do that at the league minimum. Keep Happ as your 5, save the money to resign Moyer and put the money into the bullpen. Anyone that thinks this current bullpen will be able replicate last years success isn’t thinking. The Phillies need another impact arm back there.
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DeRosa is a good player but I just think it’s harder to find someone to fill a spot in the rotation, which Happ will do relatively cheaply for five years.
A good team needs six starters a year, minimum. We have three set (Hamels, Blanton, Myers) and the sixth guy waiting in the wings (CC) so if we trade Happ we need two more ML ready starters. Those spots are not easily or cheaply filled.
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good article in the philly inquire about Donald.
Phillies Notebook: Infielder Donald is the top target among Phillies’ prospects
By PAUL HAGEN
Philadelphia Daily News
hagenp@phillynews.com
LAS VEGAS – The Phillies traded onetime hot centerfield prospect Greg Golson to the Rangers for John Mayberry Jr. last month. They traded Adrian Cardenas and Josh Outman to the Athletics to get righthander Joe Blanton in July.
Now the name that is most prominently attached to almost any trade rumor involving the Phillies at the winter meetings is infielder Jason Donald, who played for Team USA during the Beijing Olympics and was recently named to the Arizona Fall League’s All-Prospect team.
The question, of course, is how many of their up-and-coming young players the Phils are willing to deal as they prepare to defend their first world championship since 1980.
General manager Ruben Amaro Jr. sidestepped the question.
“He’s a high-level prospect and any time you have one of those players, there’s always going to be interest in him,” he said. “Frankly, he’s just as interesting to us as he would be to other clubs.”
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also to answer the question above, i don’t think adding derosa hurts donald. there are plenty of positions that need help. utley is hurt, feliz has back issues and left field is vacant. donald doesn’t play left. so i think that there is room for both players.
i also think that 5th starters are not that important. i mean we won the world series this year with eaton most of the year. we went to a 4 man rotation in the playoffs.
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I think the issue is too many folks make their comments based up “X” trade scenario. I also think other folks tend to look at someone saying no to a trade and automatically saying “well that person isn’t a number 1 or 2 starter, etc”. I believe when you look at trades you need to look at the specific trade being discussed and comment on that, and not assume that someone is saying our player is the second coming, etc.
On that note – I don’t like the Happ/Derosa thing. I just don’t think Derosa gives us all that much (when looking at Utley being back, etc.). It’s not that I’m in love with Happ, or that Happ/Coste for Derosa isn’t a fair trade – I just don’t think it fills our most pressing holes. And if Happ, as he seems, does have value (Derosa is pretty good) I’d like us to use that asset for something, or as part of something, that fills a bigger hole.
And one other note – to those that immediately jump to “everyone here overvalues our prospects” (and I’m not saying that some don’t) there was a comment from the blog on scout.com yesterday that every club we’re discussing a deal with has asked for Jason Donald. He says more than Carrasco but clarifies that may be that the Phils have sent “untouchable” signals about him. That said, if that’s the case, others must think Donald is pretty good.
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The rumor I’m hearing is that the we give up Happ and Coste for DeRosa and Vitters (Cubs #1 — 3rd overall pick – Josh Vitters)…
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the more i think about this the more insensed i be come. lets help the cubs have a rotation of zambrano,peavy,dempster,lilly and harden, while giving away our 4TH starter. nothing against derosa hes a fine player,but not at that price. it,s also nice to know that hagen and amaro know what most of us have known for a long time about donald.i mean do you have to be a genius to know donald is their top prospect.as ive said if anyone will be ready ahead of scheuele it will be utley,leaving donald in brunletts position.and as far as this lack of confidence in happ will someone give me a name to fill his spot since he is so easily replaceable. one more question i would rather move brown or taylor and d,armand sorry nepp,for cantu in left.
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The one thing we have to remember is a prospect is just that….a prospect, until they prove they can play at the MLB level. And while Happ and Donald both look to have good futures they are both still relatively unproven. I’m questioning why we don’t look more into getting Peavy for ourselves. I’m assuming the price would be more than they would want to pay. ie… Carrasco, Donald, and maybe others. But he is proven talent. How many can’t miss stud prospects have fizzled once they hit the majors. Championship teams build the rotation from the front…not the back.
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skip – you heard wrong. we aren’t getting vitters. no way. not for happ and i don’t think that we would need a catching prospect anyway.
john – happ is not our 4th starter. he might not even be our 5th next year. you really shouldn’t be “insensed”. this deal helps the phillies.
i mean, was i the only guy who saw happ last year as a little tentative towards the end. he had a few good starts in the beginning and then a few bad ones. by the end of the season, they were really carefull with him. his last 3 starts were not good at all (13 ip, 12 hits, 10 walks, 8 er, 9 ks). i.e. once the scouting report got out about him. you make this like he is a stud pitcher. he seriously might not even make our rotation next year. then what? he is a 26 year old long reliever or back to the minors.
and the analogy to ryan howard is rediculous. he was blocked by a hall of famer with a big contract. and his minor league production was insane. happ’s milb production isn’t even in the same book, let alone sentence.
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The Phillies can’t be making decisions based on what the Cubs will get. Some here tend to think Happ is the answer as our fifth starter; I don’t, and am quite convinced that he will be a journeyman lefty out of the bullpen when all is said and done. Not to say I’d mind if he was given a shot this year all else being equal. But when you have a chance to get DeRosa for him, all else is not equal. DeRosa is quite valuable individually, but also in the context of the Phillies, whose best alternative at several positions this year was the Black hole that was Eric Bruntlett. If nothing else, DeRosa gets all the atbats Bruntlett saw, which with injury concerns at 2b, 3b and the LF vacancy, will likely be substantial.
Finally, where is this “the Phillies should only tinker” sentiment coming from? Remember when the Phillies were one Billy Wagner arm strain from not making the playoffs, much less winning the world series? This team was NOT the best team in baseball last year World Series or not, and it certainly could stand improvements. The goal should always be to maximize the resources you have to put the best product on the field. No one is untouchable because everyone has a value. If that value is exceeded in a trade offer, it makes no sense not to make it.
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i agree with you Mr. Anonymous, whomever you might be.
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Definitely some good points. Don’t really agree though, pitching wins. You could get DeRosa’s production from Jason Donald and a guy like Juan Rivera and still save money. Keeping Happ gives you depth in the rotation if injuries happen and gives you more leverage to pick up pieces along the way instead of giving 9 million to a guy like Jason Marquis.
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Pat Burrell- Exactly! The question I have with this trade rumor is: Does Marquis out perfrom Happ, maybe but at about $9.5 million MORE than Happ I say no way he would ever be able to be worth that salary. I’d rather have Happ and Moyer at the same amount than Marquis and Moyer (?) at double the amount.
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DeRosa is a FA after next year. I think 5 years of Happ plus another player is worth more then one year of DeRosa. I don’t overvalue our prospects, I overvalue PITCHING. That is how this team won the WS last year, pitching, so decent, young, cheap pitchers like Happ shouldn’t be bandied about without good backup plans.
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I could deal with a Happ/Derosa swap… but please tell me this rumor of the Phillies maybe taking Marquis is false! Adding another righty with so-so stuff and wavering stat lines is just silly. I’d much rather take a flier on a guy with up-and-down years with great stuff, i.e. Matt Clement.
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This deal is very shortsighted for the phillies. However, a brilliant move would be to waste the Cubs and Padres time. If nothing happens and Towers takes Peavy off the block then I am going to be the first to declare Ruben Amaro Jr a genius.
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Marquis is horrible. Gives up alot of hits and isn’t going to better than a 5th starter and we already are paying Adam Eaton $8.5 NOT to start.
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Why would we want to give the Cubs the best pitching staff in baseball? That wouldn’t come back to bite us in the arse in the playoffs or anything. It doesnt make any sense to help improve a rival team that much all for Mark Derosa.
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I’m ok with the Happ-DeRosa swap (as much as it would kill me to see the Cubs end up with Peavy), in part because I’m not sold on J.A. Happ. I’ve seen others mention him as our fourth or even THIRD starter – that makes no sense to me, not from what I saw from him this season.
I think its safe to assume that if the Phils don’t re-sign Moyer, they’re going to pick up another pitcher. If that FA pick-up is not better than J.A. Happ, then we’re in trouble.
I’ve also seen the 12-15 win number thrown around – where are people getting this from? 12-15 wins for a FIFTH starter (that’s what he is right now) is ridiculous and extremely unlikely. Who gets 12-15 wins from their fifth starter?
Finally, while I’m optimistic about Donald’s pro potential, getting a proven commodity like DeRosa gives us so much more flexibility. Even if he doesn’t put up the same career numbers as last season, he’s still going to give us a much more reliable bat off the bench who can fill in for Utley early and platoon a bit in left field/third base. Ideally, I’d love to have DeRosa, PLUS a Juan Rivera (and I think there’s room in there for Donald too, assuming Coste is on his way out).
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Oh, and i want ZERO part of Jason Marquis.
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Marquis would be negative value to this trade to us. I have to agree with everyone…if Marquis is in the trade…what was the point of not offering arb to Moyer or Burrell?
I hope Ruben is just trying to waste the Padres and Cubs time, as others have pointed out.
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I am Anonymous, sorry, computer did not put in the name automatically this time. I think the entire group is saying pretty much the same thing. The team has some good pieces, they should not be traded away in a careless manner for overpriced, short-term talent. It makes no sense.
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Marquis would come to us with 4mil of his salary paid by the cubs so he would cost us 5.9 million.. The O’s might take Marquis instead of us, the Cubs are just trying to give him away.
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I think Amaro is doing a good job as far as I can tell. He’s weighing options and considering different scenarios. While I like Donald greatly, his trading value is very high right now and he will never start at 2B or SS for the Phils and Amaro is trying to sell high. Delman Young for Donald would be a great trade on potential for the Phils and I can understand why the Twins turned it down. I’m sure Amaro was just exploring. Happ for Derosa is surprising to me though. Derosa is only signed for one year and at 5.5M, is not a cheap solution in a tight financial market. Abreu for one year? That would be a funny circular event. Peavy doesn’t want to pitch in Philly so that’s not an option. Moyer’s agent is asking for 2 years of big money but he won’t get it anywhere. I still think the Phils will sign him for a year and they’ll probably give him an innings pitched vesting option for year 2.
By the way, if Wade wants to trade Carlos Lee, that would be a trade worth giving up some prospects for. He’s an rbi machine with great numbers every year.
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The Phillies have so many rumors running around, why is everyone so concerned over a Happ for Derosa possibility? They are looking at guys like Lowe, Moyer, Ibanez, Rivera, Punto, Ludwick/Ankiel/Shumacker, Young, and even fliers on Clement and Wolf (just speculation).
They are checking in on every single frong to make the best fit for our team.
Now for all you who are crying about not offering Arbitration to PB and Moyer STOP IT. Moyer made 7 mil last year and would accept Arbitration and could command around 9 million (Hes 46), they would rather make it 12 million for Lowe. PB made 14 million last year and if accepted Arbitration (which he would have) he would have made at least 15 million, HE WILL NOT MAKE THAT ON THE FA MARKET. Why pay him 15 million (minimum) when you can have so many other SOLID choices for MUCH MUCH LESS?
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****Who gets 12-15 wins from their fifth starter?****
The Cubs would…that is if we helped them make this trade.
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NEPP, the Pads are trading Peavy for 2 reasons.
#1 after this year and the rest of his contract hes going to be VERY expensive for them. BUT BUT BUT hes really not that expensive IF hes the CY pitcher the Cubs are trading for.
#2 if they dont trade him right now they may never get a solid return and everyone may see that the 3 years of decline was just the beginning of what is to come with him.
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GOOD SENSE
Teddy Roosevelt Says
I dont under stand why we would trade prospects for a temporary 2b replacement? Couldn’t we resign Iguchi and let donald compete with him for the starting job for the first month…if we need someone that long?
# TJC Says:
Oh, and i want ZERO part of Jason Marquis.+
NEPP Says:
Why would we want to give the Cubs the best pitching staff in baseball
the division is weak the cubs maybe a postseason foe
COMPLETE nd utter nonsense
PP Fan Say
i think that you guys are way over reacting. it might be for one of two reasons. 1. i am under estimating happ or 2. you guys are biased to our farm. obvisously i think that it is #2. i think that we fall in love with our system, but there is nothing to suggest happ becomes anything more than a #5 or #4, if that. i have not seen one
Happ gave quality starts what were you looking at
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I understand why they’re trading him Bergeraj…I dont understand why the Phillies are helping the deal along when it could haunt them in the playoffs.
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Bergeraj – I think everyone is worried about the Marquis factor of the trade and not Derosa so much.
5 yrs of Happ for 1 yr of Derosa is alot but doable.
If we have to pay Marquis $6-$7 million I may puke. He won’t be any good here and there would have been no point in letting Moyer walk. I mean, I’d rather have Moyer for $9 million on a 1 yr arb deal than $6 million to Marquis via trade.
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Who says Twins turned down Donald for D. Young? I just read the Minnesota guy LEN3rd and he said Phillies do not want to trade Donald.
Marquis has not been moved and the Cubs need to find a taker to finish the proposed deal above.
The probability of Happ being much more than a fill-in plugger at 5th starter, 3rd LH option in the bullpen–long reliever does not seem that great to me.
He is not the only option, far from it. What? You think they wouldn’t be able to find another such pitcher?
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Everone says Happ will be cheap for the next 6 years. That might be because other teams do not seem to value what he can do that much, and would not expect much return from what he might be able to do.
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The problem with the argument about helping the Cubs is the assumption that the Cubs won’t eventually complete the deal regardless of whether or not the Phillies get involved.
Not sure I’m sold on trading for DeRosa but why wouldn’t the Phillies make a trade with anyone, including the Cubs, it they believe it ultimately helps their team.
Amaro can’t try to play defense by only making trades with teams that won’t end up competing with them. If Happ for DeRosa is a good deal, it doesn’t matter what the Cubs are going to do with Happ. The only issue should be if the Phillies are better or worse after that deal..
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Marfis- I am totally fine with a Happ/Derosa deal IF we can land Moyer or Lowe. But if that means we get a Marquis type pitcher than it’s horrible. Because even if Happ is bad, he costs us nothing, while Marquis will coast us millions.
Am I the only one who would really like Ty Wigginton on this team?
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yes you are.
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From Baseball Prospectus. They drop Lou Marson’s name. UH OH. This site would explode if that happened.
The Phillies have also got involved in the talks and could make it a four-team deal because they would like to land Mark DeRosa from the Cubs to fill in for second baseman Chase Utley early in the season while he recovers from hip surgery, then shift the former Penn quarterback to left field to take the place of free agent Pat Burrell. The Padres also like Phillies left-hander J.A. Happ and catching prospect Lou Marson. The Phillies’ backup plan for left field would be to try to sign free agent Raul Ibanez.
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Vitters is a third basemen not a catcher. And a stud. These is the reason bad drafts hurt teams. right now if we had one top prospect to give the padres, plus happ, donald and coste we would have a starting staff that would be in place for next 3-4 years and would be a contender each year,
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From Section 113:
I wouldn’t mind Ty Wigginton, he’s similar to DeRosa. But will the Astros let Ed Wade trade with the Phillies again? I doubt it, he might get fired.
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Well for what it’s worth Cubs fans are freaking out that they may trade DeRosa, the message board on Mlb.com is hilarious. They don’t want to give him up for Peavy. Interesting.
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3up
what are you saying help the foe before someone else does?
Marquis has been dropped from many rotations
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Marquis = Easton II
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Chigago source says Cubs would assume around 6 million in Marquis’ salary. Another thing said they offered Marquis to the Mets for Aaron Heilman but Mets wanted them to assume more salary.. Now at 4 mil. he could be used as 3rd RH set-up option in bull pen. Then they could get a good useful player in DeRosa, and bullpen depth and give up little in return.
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Okay, now just seen a blog from Krasovich in San Diego that says Padres not interested in Coste or Happ. Says they are seeking young pitching from Phillies as part of the trade. Also said they are not interested in Ronnie Cedeno,, SS. But say they may get a SS in the deal.
Hmm?
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Section 113, I agree with the Marquis issue and to be honest I dont want any part of him since we already have Eaton still eating salary while rotting in AAA.
Apparently SD doesnt even want Happ so who knows what is going on. 1 person says this another says that and everyone picks a side. I think they are just flipping stones to see if diamonds pop out of all this MESS.
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What I’m saying NoWheels is that the Phillies only concern should be in improving their own team regardless of what that does for their trading partner.
Wasn’t the trade with the Astros for Lidge last year potentially helping a foe? Or should the Phillies only trade with AL teams with no shot at making the WS in the next 3-5 years?
Amaro’s only concern should be in making the Phillies roster better, not worrying what the Cubs are doing. Teams get themselves into trouble when waste resources trying to block moves from other teams.
How did that Yankee signing of Damon away from the RedSox work out? Or the Mets outbidding the Phillies for Wagner?
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What’s the point of DeRosa. He’s 34 with one year left on his contract. He’s really a guy without a position as such. When Uley returns where do you play him? If someone needed to cover for Utley, let Donald get some playing time. Maybe the Phillies should work Donald and maybe Marson into the outfield picture. Both have the tools to do it.
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Ok point made 3up but this trade is silly from all prospectives
a second rate starter, a guy who hits for average but has a low obp . That is leftover from the old cubs . Donald is a completely balance player. Leave Peavy out of this for a moment What is our return. old useless and soon to be gone.
Marquis could very well be a total bust and still get innings
We already have two useless players on the 25 One more?
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Mike Mike – The Phillies have the pieces to get Peavy but he is not willing to come to Philly. People may disagree but if and when he moves we’ll know that for sure.
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Peavy doesn’t want to play in Philly/NY. The only places he wants to go were Braves, Cubs, Astros, and I think the Dodgers.
Happ for DeRosa is a no brainer for me, DeRosa can play 2B/3B/LF/RF, he hits well against R/L. Very valuable player to have, plus he makes our offense less one dimensional.
Sign Lowe, Trade for DeRosa, let Sweet Lou split time with Ruiz, and sign a bullpen piece like Lyon and I’d be very happy.
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Complications.
According to Jayson Stark on the ESPN blog. Phillies not going to wait around on DeRosa. Starks says a friend of Raul Ibanez says Raul told him the Phillies are his 1st choice.
The Cubs say they want LH hitter and Ibanez is their 1st choice. They won’t move DeRosa till this issue is resolved.
Needing more LH hitters they want Ibanez in RF and will play LH hitting Mike Fontenot at 2B after they move DeRosa. So maybe all the precious prospects will remain here, leaving out next draft’s 1st pick, maybe.
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18 steals caught 13 times what a dimension
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Nowheels please I’m begging you to just stop. Steals do not = running ability, especially when you’re put him in LF where we had the slowest human being on earth. Going first to third on a single is important, something Burrell couldn’t give you.
When Victorino went 4/7 in steals in 06, was that because he was slow? Of course not, but by going by your moronic theory he was.
Let him work with Lopes and he’ll steal 10-15 bases easily.
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FWIW, All the guys on XM175 were flipping about the Cubs “losing” their heart and soul in Mark Derosa…they all thought it was a horrible idea.
You put Derosa in LF when Utley is healed Airborne. His power is good enough for a corner OF position.
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if the cubs were to get peavy, could you imagine their rotation with zambrano, peavy, and dempster
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Mind you Ted Lilly would be their #4 starter…not exactly much of a dropoff there from 1-4.
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Does Peavy have a no trade clause? why wouldn’t he want to come here? But who would they take we have no vitters or marshall types to trade. Then I go on espn and buster Olney lists 6 teams that are willing to spend for a corner outfielder and guess what he list Rays ,Cubs, Mets, yankees. not us so we are not going out to get a adquate replacement for pat. I hope that we don’t get a Marquis or another eaton to replace moyer.
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Peavy has a Full No Trade Clause. He has only approved a trade to the Cubs at this point. He is completely uninterested in pitching in the Northeast from all reports.
That factor and the Padres NEED to lower salary is why the cost of Peavy is so “low”.
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You are all overhyping this trade situation. J.A. Happ has never been that amazing of a prospect, prior to this year he was a mere afterthought. Are you going to tell me that he’ll really make THAT much of a difference over Kendrick out of the 5th spot? Also, Marquis is a solid arm to throw in there, so you have some options. You’re also downgrading DeRosa’s value. They are not trading for him as a month-long 2nd base replacement, he would play a lot, and would probably get the most starts in LF on the team. Also we are not getting Peavy, drop that topic.
In the meantime, lets talk about some other possible suitors for the Phillies:
Derek Lowe, Juan Rivera, Raul Ibanez..I don’t understand why we have such interest in Ibanez when he is a 37 year old, poor fielding left-handed hitter? Sounds to me like the last thing we need
Also, I heard a rumor that the Braves are shopping Jeff Francoeur. He’d be a Great right-handed bat to add to the lineup, and you could move Werth to left. I would easily trade Donald or Happ for him, in a hearbeat
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Happ MIGHT be a decent solution for the #5 starter…we already KNOW that Kendrick isn’t.
I think Ibanez has more interest in us than we have in him personally. He said that the Phillies were his #1 choice earlier.
Francouer’s OBP is almost as good as Pedro Feliz’s.
Career OBP:
Jeff Francouer – .312
Pedro Feliz – .290
2008 OBP:
Jeff Francouer – .294
Pedro Feliz – .302
Yeah, no thanks.
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Francour’s got some pop, but we have enough K’s in this lineup.
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I like the pop that he brings though, not to mention a great fielder with a canon arm. I think he’d be a very nice replacement for Burrell.
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Just reading an article about Jermaine Dye amd I’m a little suprised to see that the phillies are one of the six teams he could block a trade to, three of the others being the mets, red sox, and yankees. At this point, I don’t think the phillies would have any interest in him anyways despite a void for a corner OF.
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Dye doesn’t want to play for any team in the Northeast…whether it has to do with the weather or the intensity of the fanbases is unknown. I’m guessing a bit of both.
Francouer’s “Pop” must be in the eye of the beholder.
2006: 162 G, 29 HR, .449 SLG
2007: 162 G, 22 HR, .444 SLG
2008: 155 G, 11 HR, .359 SLG
Seems to me the league has adjusted to him and he hasn’t ever adjusted back. He’s been healthy all 3 years and is entering his Age 25 season now. It’s seriously beginning to look like he might be somewhat of a bust…not matter how good his arm is in the outfield.
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There is a rumor running around that Happ is not involved but Kyle Kendrick is this is posted on Zolecki at philly.com
Would this make everyone feel better about this whole thing? Heres what he said!
There is talk that the deal has expanded to four teams: the Cubs, Padres, Phillies and Orioles. Last night word had spread that lefthander J.A. Happ could be the key piece for the Phillies, who would send him (and possibly a catcher) to the Cubs. The Cubs would then send them to the Padres for Jake Peavy. But the latest in Las Vegas is that righthander Kyle Kendrick could be traded instead of Happ.
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Since we know Marson is the future at the C position, would there be any trade interest in Jaramillo out there? Couple him with, say, Slaydon, and maybe we can get ourselves a serviceable arm like Daniel Cabrera from the Orioles. They’re gonna be needing to restock the C position after the trade for Freel today. Whatta ya think?
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I doubt that Kendrick alone would get it done…I could see Kendrick AND Happ getting it done as the Padres are said to be completely uninterested in Chris Coste (From MLBTradeRumors):
The Padres shot down a national report that they are targeting Phillies catcher Chris Coste as part of a Jake Peavy trade that would move Cubs infielder Mark DeRosa to the Phillies. Phillies left-hander J.A. Happ, viewed as a potential No. 4 or 5 starter for 2009, is on the radar, along with a lower-level pitching prospect. The Padres are seeking young pitching from the Phillies as part of the many scenarios involving three or four teams in a trade that would place Jake Peavy with the Cubs.
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B Says:
Nowheels please I’m begging you to just stop. Steals do not = running ability
Beg all you want if you cant see the need to defeat McCann
and Baker by running them off the field ,there is soccer.
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The Phillies would be fools to help the Cubs, who already have a superior pitching staff, get another #1 starter, end of discussion. It is more than obvious that the Cubs do not have the prospects to get the job done on their own, because they traded them all away for another #1 Starter in Haren. Why should we supply them with the bullets for the gun that will enevitably be pointed in our direction? For a 35 year old back-up??
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my bad Harden
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Wow, this site is dead. Kinda cheap too.
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End of discussion? no wonder this site is dead, you’ve already resolved this issue.
Good luck finding somewhere more active!!
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In all fairness, philliesnation.com (although its down right now, rare) is probably more active than this site. Not saying it’s better or anything, just saying it probably gets more hits.
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This Site Dead – you think that there is interest in this trade Jaramillo and Slaydon. C YA – Brain Dead
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no wheels great comment on 116 show no mercy. the phils never offered donald for young. once again youngs average year .290 4-1 so to bb ratio 5 hrs 50 rbis 50 runs,plus 3 bats to the head. hes mays reincarnate. i want cantu! lets see the are really going to outbid the yankees for lowe. kendrick for derosa i would do. congrats to joe gordon.
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john from philly.ne
What is your view . Do you see McCann and Baker’s in ablity o throw out runners as a fatal weekness in there teams
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nw i must say if mccann were a rh bat i would take him in a minute. most of these catchers today are bad. the days of bench, campy, and yogi are gone. but then again you cant have a catcher with the arm of a piazza or every single is a double and every double is a triple.to make it simple marson may be the best young catcher who combines bat and glove. yes nw i agree with you although bill james severially discounts defense,in my perfect world dodger bb of pitching and defense is what wins.
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defence won in the playoffs am i right
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defense of cource
I hope Ruben doesnt get like Mr Ed who would take Lassie if you paid part of his salary
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i think it was a combination of many things probably pitching and TIMELY HITTING the most obvious.they were just so good in every aspect of the game. imean it everything came together in the perfect storm. whoever wrote in one of the blogs that we must continue in the red sox model in my opinion hit the nail on the head. but now we must make it the phillies model. bring up 1 or 2 farm guys a year and sign 1 big free agent,or trade for 1. with donald,marson and happ were continuing to bring in new blood now we need a righty bat in lf and another starter. its,in my humble opinion that simple. ive said i like cantu i mean it and if moyer doesnt sign go after lowe or someone. i dont think carrasco is ready although i hope im wrong. by the everybody happ pronounces his name jay happ.
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Jaramillo–I see from SD on MLBtraderumors that supposedly San Diego wants him. Also Kyle Kendrick goes.
From reading a hodge-podge of things I kind of surmise these ideas: Jaramillo and Kendrick to SD. Scott Hairston to Philly. Some Philly source said Cubs not likely to give up DeRosa, but Philly interested in “some other” Cubs players. Maybe Marquis comes to Philly as Cubs rumored to be assuming 4 mil. of salary putting him at around 6 mil. range which might be acceptable as starter-reliever. SD wants to reduce the number of players on its’ 40 man roster, so maybe Philly get additional players from SD and Cubs in addition to Marquis and Hairston.
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Lidge made the hitting look even more timely . I expect Berry to get special attention from Lopes and c were that goes.
meantime what do you c as the Mets weaknesses aside from
relief (a big aside). Since most money goes to their eternal tourmenter Wayne I do think the Marlins will even try til 2011
or so. The Braves have a SS and gapping holes so……………….. It maybe the walk it should of been this year
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marfis if the phils send jaraillo and kendrick to chi. for derosa i wouldnt oppose it, but i would much rather go after cantu.
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Loretta has agreed to a one-year, $1.25 million contract, according to ESPN.com’s Jayson Stark. He figures to be the Dodgers’ primary backup at all four infield positions.
If ya Hafta have a filin 1/2 the price or less of DeRosa
too late!
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i think the mets chemistry is terrable, in other words minaya. 2nd, lf, rf c pitching . as far as the braves i hope the yankees sign burnett.
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Agreed, Mets’ biggest deficiencies are heart and chemistry…I don’t necessarily think K-Rod addresses that.
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So, I believe San Diego wants a Catcher because of only one on their roster as one reason, so they would be the ones to want Jaramillo. There are also rumors around mentioning Coste and Marson (this from Baseball Prospectus which I kind of relegate to lesser crecibility). I don’t who said Cubs won’t give up DeRosa, but if it is from a credible source it may be more likely because they said a “Philly Official” said so. That’s an evaluative tendency I have for those things.
Now as to Cantu, I believe he started out as a 2b in Kansas City. Always likely to put up good numbers, though at times he has been benched and even sent to minors I beleive. Moved around to 3rd, 1st, OF. Not reputed to be a good fielder. So if he turns out to be a poor outfielder, maybe the equivalent would be to give Bruuell the 2 million a year 1 year contract he is likely to get on the open market.
Phillies rumored to be interested in signing Jerry Hairston, Jr.
That’s looking better and better. I prefer to trading for Cantu. Contrary to what many believe; Marlins are not reducing payroll, are not giving players away, and are very sharp at player evaluation, so they would be likely to get a haul.
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Marfis
One reason the Marlins didnt get Manny last year is Wayne gets practically all the parking ,concession and club box money
and he has been tormenting them for years (see Norman Bramans law suit). So they have not reason to try to win just collect small market money as long as they can.
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my 1st choice is burrell as ive said,i just heard seth everett saying burrell is drawing no interest.1 or 2 year contract and hope brown or taylor are the real deal. as far as cantu i believe he played the vast majority of last in lf. he,s not may,s but hes no butcher. i believe his average year is app. 25 hrs 100 rbi,s decent k to bb ratio and hes rh. the marlins are indeed great evaluators but they seem to like lower level minor leagers and from what i hear the marlins do have at least 3 starters on the block.ill check his stats now.
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i was wrong he played 129 games at third poor fielder. 29 hrs .277 95 rbis 90runs.
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A rumor I have just seen is Giants would have sent Jonathon Sanchez for Cantu , but they backed out when they reviewed Cantu’s fielding. So if somebody wants to turn over that level of player they would be hard pressed.
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Why on earth would anybody want Jerry Hairson on this team? Especially as a corner outfielder. The guy has hit 39 homers…in his career! He is just plain bad and this team has no need for him. If they do sign him, he will be as hated as Feliz is now in a very short period of time.
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I don”t go by Home Run totals. It’s not about adding up some stats. Those who think it is about replacing the (what?) 33 HR’s and 93 RBI’s of Burrell, for what? Even if that were the case , whoever plays LF would , likely, platoon with Dobbs. If you project out the number of HR’s Dobbs hit compared to number of AB”s , project it out for out the AB’s against RHP’s it would be close to 33 . and you add in whoever else they get, even Mayberry Jr. , it very likely would exceed 33.
And Jerry Hairston Jr. plays all 7 non-battery positions, so he could be an additional IF back-up with Bruntlett, who occasionally plays OF. And they could get another player to platoon in OF, such as the rumored acquisition of the other Hairston, Scott from San Diego.
If you check Hairston (Jerry Jr.’s) recent numbers he has hit for a high average, especially against Left Handers.
Those who don’t like Feliz don’t know enough.
All of those criticicisms belong on the big pile of garbage that other criticisms such as of Ruiz, Myers, Bruntlett, and of many others who, until they acheived a higher level in the champiionship season and have, lately, almost dissappeared), belong.
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Yanks reportedly are signing a deal with CC right now. They also reportedly have offered Lowe 4 years 66 mil. That makes our offer look weak.
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Oh yeah, one more thing. I believe those who make unwarranted criticisms, are, but, part of a small clique of yappers who mostly talk to each other.
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using dobbs to platoon is destroying his pinch hitting greatness. i have seen it time and time again when a ph is overused their productiveity goes down. some games yes maybe 200 ab,s and im not sure he can play outfield. most people think you just throw on a glove and out there. its not that easy.
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I believe that whole saving a good hitter for Pinch-Hitting deal is misguided. Dobbs puts as good a swing on the ball as anybody. He has already ;played in the OF. If he can’t get to more balls than Pat the Bat, and catch them , something is wrong. Anybody who can play 3B can play LF.
LF is 3B, only further away.
On another note, I see Minnesota may be taking over for Phillies in the Cubs-SD thing. LEN3RD says they are thinking of shipping young pitchers that SD might like to the cubs for DeRosa. Maybe people will soon not have that to worry about anymore.
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I don’t like Hairston at all. He has little power, and is splits vs Lefties for his career is not that great. He had a nice 2008 but we need someone to complement Werth as a righty in our lineup.
I really like Ty Wigginton. He’s a righty, has power, has played LF, could play 3B if feliz’s back acts up again, and I think fits this team well.
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From what I seen somewhere, they say Wigginton will make around $10 million a year I think he is going to arbitration. So , if here , he is not likely to platoon. Then you have to trade into the whole Ed Wade-Houston mess.
Maybe they got Miguel Tejada, Carlos Lee, Jose Valverde, et al. available. It seems they might be deficient in prospects by now, so they would probably want ALOT.
And being as if it might be wise to maintain good relations among baseball executives, it would be only sporting to kick in a little extra, given the LIDGE deal, and all.
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Perhaps I was a bit harsh in my statement earlier regarding Hairston, but he is simply not a good fit for this team and/or what it needs. We already have a guy on the team that can play just about every position and not hit, and that’s Bruntlett. Hairston has had one above-average season in his career, and it was last year at age 32. Look at the sub-300 OBP the two years before last. Those are much more in line with his career numbers.
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I think we should wait for Burrell just because the market might not be what he thinks it is. we may be able to get him for 2 years, 8-10 mil each
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Marfis- Wigginton made less than $5 million last yr, I cannot see how his $$ would more than double in arbitration.
If he makes slightly more than $6 million that would be a 40% raise. I think he will make slightly more than Derosa. And could play everyday in LF. I would be willing to bet he’d play better in LF than at 3B for us.
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I wonder if we could pulloff the peavey trade for carraso, happ, one of the lower level prospects the padres are supposedly enamored with(probably knapp, sampson or worley) and eaton plus 4 mil of his salary to go back to spacious petco where he had some success would get it done? We could then trade donald, condrey and one of the aforementioned lower level pitchers for delmon young who would be a risk but who could hit 290-25-100. he is a monster and just realizing his power potential. Finally we could trade feliz, coste, the remaining lower level prospect, mattair, e. garcia and savery for 3b-zimmerman from nats.
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Marky Mark: Of the entire fairy tale you wrote above, I think the most imaginitie and funniest part was someone taking on $4+ Million of Eaton’s salary. Now that’s comedy.
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from the web
So the makeup of this trade could depend on whether they can find a taker for pitcher Jason Marquis, on how much money they pay that outfielder and whether a third team is needed to take on an additional contract (a la Mark DeRosa).
Cubs in search for a sucker
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I would trade Donald for Young, its actually the way you should make trades from your strength. Right now the Phillies have Utley (and he will come back healthy) and Rollins in the middle infield. They don’t have anything on the horizon for the outfield (unless Mayberry Jr is a player)
I would not deal Happ for Derosa. I would rather take the 5 mill you are going to pay Derosa and give it to Punto and keep Happ.
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Marky Mark – love the jest, but lets get real.
I honestly hope the phillies take the bosox as their blueprint and do nothing but resign moyer for 1 year with a 1 year club option provided he posts an era below 4.5 (*or something like that) and provided utley is out for more then just april trade happ and a throw in for DeRosa then platoon him in left. Use the cash from not signing lowe and the difference between burrells salary and DeRosa to sign cole hamels to a 6yr deal. If utley will only be out for april, allow donald to play in at 2nd base and then platoon him in left/3rd with dobbs/feliz. Regarding the 5th pitching spot, I’d like to see a battle between kendrick, happ and carassco with the loser (*lets say carassco) being sent to the minors. If the 5th starter isn’t producing well by say Mid June, bring up Carasco if he’s pitching well at AAA or trade for someone prior to the deadline if you have to. I WOULD BE ELATED IF THEY FOLLOWED THE ABOVE!!!!
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The newest info out on this deal is the we are NOT, I say again ARE NOT trading for DeRosa. Amaro said he doesnt believe they are getting DeRosa but are looking at another Cubs player. IMO it is a RP and makes a heck of a lot more sense if the 2 players we are trading is indeed Kendrick and Jarmillo. Also we are not going after Marquis or this deal would have been done already.
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To those who think we should just stand pay because we are world champs should look over their shoulder to the team that lost something like 19 games by one run. Oh those blown saves at the end of the year! but now they have k-rod and probably at least one more major acquisition coming since they got k-rod cheaper than they anticipated due to the market shift. I’d be happy if we got derosa for happ to platoon with dobbs and the never mentioned jenkins, looking to bounce back a little. Mayberry is waiting and i’m very excited to see taylor and later d. brown. Take the moyer and burrell money( if we can’t get burrell for 10 mil or less) and get lowe or burnett, even sheets. Then we can inquire about a trade for atkins , cantu, or some other longer term sollution. proably need one more arm in the bullpen as well.
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Bergeraj-
looking over the whole Padres/Cubs/Phillies thing I wouldn’t mind getting Cla Meredith either. I think he could become a valuable bullpen guy for us.
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probably would have to throw in marson and kendrick who will appear to have more upside than he really does with the two double digit win seasons by age 23 to make peavy happen. We don’t really have a josh viters type prospect to give them so would have to give quantity like mets did for santana last year. No superstars there! although c gomez is looking pretty good now.
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i guess expecting someone to pay half of eaton’s salary was a stretch even for the one team that could have interest in him. maybe recoop 2 mil of the 8.5. I think nthe other two trade proposals were fair. Mattair is our #1 3d base prospect, savery was # 1 pick in 2007, garcia is 20 year old in reading already and the final prospect would be someone like knapp with tremendous upside and only 18. In the d. young trade proposal this was more than what was talked about between the teams. We have a surplus of young pitching prospects and they can’t all make it to the big club so why not get some value back? we need to think outside the box. Section 113 maybe you just don’t know who our prospects are.
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Biggest stretch was getting Zimmerman from the Nats. They have no reason to trade a top 5, young 3b for a bunch of Phillies spare parts. Savery, Mattier, Garcia are not top prospects and Coste/Feliz are not attractive ML trade pieces.
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Marky Mark- I do know no one is taking Eaton even for $2 Million. Why would a team trade a player like Peavy inorder to CUT salary but be willing to take $2-$4 million of an Eaton contract? Maybe you just don’t know who our major league players are.
Also why would we want Peavy? He already said he doesn’t want to come here. He is not as good away from San Diego as he is in that HUGE ball park. His splits this year were alarming. He has melted in front of pressure situations.
Yeah, that’s who I want.
And Donald and Condrey for Young? Are you drunk? That could get a GM fired. Trade a speedy OF who can hit for avg and is young for a utility player who has never sniffed the big leagues and a mop reliever. ONLY after you traded him for the ALCS MVP and the American League Champions starting short stop. I am sorry but David Littlefield is not the Twins GM.
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3up3kkk- No man don’t you see we just trade Slayden/Brummett/Overholt/Condrey/Carpenter/Jaramillo/Harman/Cruse/Pfinsgraff for Grady Siezmore AND Cliff Lee but the Indians have to pay for Sizemore and Lee’s contract. I mean it’s only fair we are giving them 9 “prospects”.
It’s one thing to speculate who we can trade and who is worth what, but when people are looking to trade away 10 guys and get players far superior than what our guys are worth, than it gets a little crazy.
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If Moyer was just a pitcher I could see the money thing but
it was obvious the young guys went to him not Dubee who was busy giving signs to the catcher. Eliminating supid
pitching decisions would help. Does Dubee have the manager’s ear or he behind some of the silliness.
Is Ed Wade pulling strings here.
1.Penn= Glanville= DeRosa
2. getting poor player because the other team pays part of their salary
Mark Lorretta= Mark DeRosa sigh
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I wouldn’t listen to this Marky Mark, I hear he runs with a real ‘funky’ bunch.
HA!
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Greg
What do you mean he will soon be hated as much as Feliz?
..I don’t think that Feliz is very hated, or atleast I don’t hate him. He’s a phenomenal defensive 3rd basemen who always hits around .265-.270 with 15-20 HRs. Very solid in my book
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Marfis – I couldn’t disagree more…Feliz, Brunlett, and Ruiz CANNOT HIT and hitting is a pretty big part of being a professional baseball player. These guys are in their 30s now so it’s not like we can expect them to get better. After Utley gets back, one would hope Donald would either move to 3rd and force Feliz to the bench or fill Bruntlett’s utility role and push him off the roster. I realize that every ML team has one or two of these guys on their roster, but it doesn’t make them good players….A Dobbs platoon in LF is not going to come close to Burrell’s production, plus it weakens our offense at 3B. We need to add another legit bat to the lineup or the 6-7-8 spots in our order will be a black hole.
Also, Hairston Jr doesn’t hit lefties any better than righties. If we add him as our 25th man, fine, but all he is is a replacement for Bruntlett. If Donald makes the team, you don’t need him, Bruntlett and Hairston on the roster.
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To review: Peavy will only approve a trade to the Cubs at this point, certainly not for what was mentioned.
The Condrey and Donald for Delmon Young thing was the best MM tried. A Donald for Young swap has been on MLBttraderumors. Young is on the outs in Minnesota, as they already have 3 OF’s they like better, and they need middle infielders. Most on here would not do that trade, from what they say. Delmon Young is a poor fielder according to some stat studies, hasn’t hit many HR”s yet, and is reputed to still have off-field issues. I say no to trading Donald for Young. Phil FO seems to agree, so far.
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Pat— now see this is what happens when stat counters get involved. Donald is too good of a prospect to sit around on the bench all season. And that is what will happen under your scenario where he replaces Bruntlett as the sole IF back-u;p. Because with Hamels, and likely Moyer and Happ in the rotation (Left Handers who rely heavily on the change-up) Infield defense at 3B will be at a high premium. If Feliz is adjudged to be even marginally better at defense than Donald (who has never really played there much before) then Feliz will play more and Donald will sit more. Dobbs is not on Feliz’ par at 3B and he should play most every day as in the LF platoon. Ruiz provides better defense and (though he may alternate with Marson,et al. through the regular season so as not to “wear out” the catchers) come “crunch time” Ruiz catches, almost exclusively , I wager. It is only your theory that these players can’t hit, they all can put a good swing on the ball, and since stats are but a numerical display of what happened in the past, it gives lie to a concept that is only stat based. And who says there should only be one Middle Infield reserve? 5 Bench Players—Catcher, 2 Infielders, 2 Outfielder—Both Infield reserves capable of playing Middle Infield. That is how a team should be constructed.
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Okay , let me trot out some stats. Somebody said Hairston Didn’t hit LHP any better than RHP. That’s not entirely true. Accoprding to stats from ESPN from the most recent season Hairston hit .345 against LHP and .316 against RHP. And the most recent season is the one that matters. If you don’t think so, why should something that happened 2 or more years ago more relevant than what happened last season?
As to Burrell’s production, again who projected out if all of Dobbs HR against RHP’s were extrapolated out to as if he got all the AB’s availabl;e against RHP’s? Nobody? Didn’t think so .
Then you add the RH component and add that production and it should easily top what Pat the Bat did.
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The most recent 3 seasons is the best evidence of what a player will do in the future.
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Okay, now if there’s an opening to work in some actual trade rumors, A couple of links off of MLBTR bring these goodies: Cubs not interested in trading DeRosa, Phillies looking to trade for SCOTT Hairston from San Diego. This is interesting because it is another source for what was on Philly.com this morning. Unless, of course, it was copied from Philly.com this morning.
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My lineup if i were GM
Mclouth cf
Donald 2nd
Vic rf
Rollins
Howard
Werth lf
Feliz until
Marson c
and I Will run at every chance
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More and More I look at it, the more I am not liking a trade involving our young arms. You don’t see the Red Sox trading away their young pitchers for Utility players.
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How about Juan Pierre as a replacement in the OF? Werth could move to left, Victorino to right and Pierre can cover the middle. It would give us an excellent defense behind our pitching staff and allow Jimmy Rollins to drop down in the order and swing for the fences.
1.Pierre
2.Victorino
3.Utley
4.Howard
5.Rollins
6.Werth
7.Feliz
8.Marson/Ruiz
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Marfis – “It is only your theory that these players can’t hit, they all can put a good swing on the ball, and since stats are but a numerical display of what happened in the past, it gives lie to a concept that is only stat based.”…I don’t even know what that means. All I know is Feliz, Brunlett, and Ruiz can’t hit.
Since you asked, Dobbs has 21 homers in 720 ABs against RHs. He’s not going to give you much power in left…
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Any trade of prospects at this stage has to be for top starting pitching. The market hasn’t settled yet and there will be teams exhausted before the back stretch. Don’t jump out early now unless it’s for Lowe or Burnett. Add dollars now, seize the initiative from the Yankees, sign Lowe at 4 years or Burnett at 5. Take your pick, years or dollars. You have to pay to play. You don’t want to compromise on starting pitching. It takes a top-down approach. There will be big time bargains later once the top is sliced off but for now, spending or trading for anything else but top starting pitching would be a mistake.
Talking is one thing, signing another. Just heard on ESPN from Steve Phillips that the Phillies were talking Carlos Carrasco and Jason Donald for DeRosa. Come on, that’s just nuts. Donald can’t be that much of a drop off from DeRosa, not enough to part with Carrasco just to help Peavy join the Cubs. The whole Peavy thing has me peeved. He doesn’t want anything to do with us; we should stay out of the talks altogether. Forget DeRosa, we need pitching. Can the Yankees get CC, Burnett and Lowe under our noses? Or the Mets snag Burnett or Sheets along with K-Rod? Are we going for it or what?
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worst thread ever…95% awful ideas
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Speaking of awful ideas…
David Murphy (via Steve Phillips) on the rumored DeRosa deal
Happ or Carrasco plus Donald for DeRosa? Well, that would officially send this place into a meltdown. And for good reason… that would be an awful, awful trade. Let’s just hope it isn’t true.
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Yea, this whole thread is really lousy. I’m just glad it’s all consolidated here instead of being spread out and crapping up all of the other threads.
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check out Cantu’s OPS or Juan Pierre’s defense in CF. Both are beyond terrible, just like most of these comments.
and who hates pedro feliz? he played a great 3B last year and he got timely hits all through the playoffs, including the GW hit in the clinching game of the world series. I guess people want david bell or wes helms back. Feliz didn’t have a great offensive year, but he was a significant upgrade at 3B
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That’s just plain ridiculous. I’d start the FireAmaro.com website tomorrow.
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Considering Donald is worth more than Derosa by himself..
FVCK!
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For the record, Pedro Feliz was juuuuuust about the worst offensive 3b in the NL last year – .705 OPS, putting him 13th out of 15 3b with at lease 400 plate appearances. Yes, he plays good defense, but not good enough to make up for his anemic offense. I believe that “hating” Pedro Feliz (i.e., strongly desiring an upgrade at 3b) is a pretty reasonable position.
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Steve phillips can’t be serious. Carrasco and Donald for De Rosa a thirty four year old utility player. He is a idiot or Amaro is nuts
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we already know steve phillips is an idiot. the main reason he’s an “analyst” and no longer a gm.
scary thing is that we really don’t know yet whether or not (or to what degree) amaro may be nuts….
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It appears to me our new GM looks like a company man with his comments regarding Hamels and Howard …basically saying there is no need to give them a contract at this point…now is the time to get these boys sealed at a slight discount or you could just wait 3 years from now and watch them leave for the Yankees.
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why dont we just trade the whole damn farm system for young,derosa,hairston. donald and carrasco for derosa and someone believed that! i nave great land in florida.
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If Amaro is anything like Gillick the Phillies will make a deal and it will involve players that no one was expecting…I would like to see some fresh faces around here thou !!
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Todd
you know what bothers me about Ruben he always says
“the right thing” therefore he says nothing and that is an insult baseball people think they are so smart always did
signed “breathless in Philadelphia” God only knows what will
happen tomorrow but it is like the calm before a storm
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I agree , Ruben forgot where he came from. I guess he is trying to make a name for himself .
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per scott lauber:
http://www.delawareonline.com/blogs/phillies.html
So, it seems the “small trade” mentioned by Ruben Amaro Jr. will be a swap of catchers. The Phils will send Class AAA catcher Jason Jaramillo to the Pirates for Ronny Paulino, a .278 hitter in parts of four seasons.
Paulino, 27, is a major-league-caliber catcher, so this figures to fuel the speculation that Chris Coste will be packaged in a trade, perhaps the multi-team deal that would bring Mark DeRosa to Philly.
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I’m not sure if theis has been mentioned or exactly where it should go, but it seems that the Phils have traded Jason Jaramillo to the Pirates for Ronny Paulino.
http://www.delawareonline.com/blogs/phillies.html
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Yes ,this is a true report that just came across the trade wire…The hand writing is on the wall for Mr.Coste to be traded to San Diego now .
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bc, you beat me by just a few minutes haha
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what does that trade mean for marson? does that have any implications for or against him?
btw…sorry for posting in the rule 5 draft, i found this topic right after i sent it…i am an idiot!
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Stay focused Handzus…there will be another one soon.
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I have a feeling the Phillies want him to get a couple more months of seasoning before they bring him up.
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Tom, its fine, I just removed the comment from there after I added a post on the trade.
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so does that mean paulino would be the backup if they trade coste??? isn’t marson already better then paulino?
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Thanks!
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phils about to sign chan ho park
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Donald and Carrasco rumor is now regarded as fabrication. No need to consider it. Paulino good move. If you read the link those guys put , Ruben says Marson will spend the majority of next season in AAA. And top prospects are likely to spend at least the 1st 2 weeks in minors anyway, as that delays their arbitration eligibility by a year (see Longoria, Evan) Chan Ho Park would be a good move too.
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Like the Park signing if it happens, so long as it is short and relatively cheap. He offers a sleeper option to the backend of the rotation or, more likely, can be the multi-inning reliever along the lines of Madson’s role, before Madson became the 8th inning guy.
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Jason Stark says Phillies stepping up negotiations with Raul Ibanez. If you follow this thread now that it’s buried a little bit, somebody could drop some sublte hints in other places.
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I changed the timestamp on the post, which brought it back to the first page of the blog. That should do the trick.
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i like park and ibanez signings if they happen. personally, i think that amaro is doing a very good job so far this off season. if we philly fans give him a shot, we might actually like him. i know the concept of giving someone a shot before bashing him is foreign to philly fans (myself included), but might seem waranted here.
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In my dreams i see Ruben trading Ruiz for a young infielder
then i wake up
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Ibanez would be a mistake. Not only are there better options available (Adam Dunn, if we are going to sign a LH bat), but those options don’t require giving up our first round pick. Since we decided not to offer arbitration to our own players, if we sign Ibanez we won’t be picking until the 60’s or 70’s in the draft. Good thing the 2008 draft was very good.
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adam dunn is a type A free agent, and we couldn’t afford his K rate in our line up. we need high ob% guys in front of howard.
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He wasn’t offered arbitration. Being a Type A doesn’t matter.
Dunn’s career OB% is .381. The last 4 seasons its been .386, .386, .365, .387, and he’s hit exactly 40 HR in each of the last 40 seasons. Ibanez has a career OB% of .346, .358, .351, .353, .355 the last four years. Strikeouts don’t matter. Neither guy is a speedster. Dunn gets on base more, and has much more power.
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Dunn was non-tendered. No compensation. But I like Ibanez better as that will possibly, if he pans out would likely lessen the need for RH batter in OF and open up some more interesting moves. Remember a chance in the draft is also a chance to make a mistake. They could sign a couple more Type A’s too, if they fill a need. Later in the draft they could sign some hard to sign guys or some Latin Americans if they want,
Kudos for moving the thread.
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The only reasons I can come up with for wanting Ibanez over Dunn/Burrell is that they think he’ll age better or that they feel he doesn’t need a defensive replacement in the late innings (even though Ibanez is just as bad defensively).
Btw, don’t look at Ibanez 3 year splits for lefty/righty. It’s not pretty. It just doesn’t make sense why they want him other than those RBI numbers.
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Dunn would be a horrible choice. Howard and Dunn could strike out 400 times together!
I would want Ty Wigginton, Dye, or Burrell. Rivera isn’t going to do anything here. Ibanez is a lefty and is looking for 3 years, 1 year, maybe, but not 3.
I really believe Wigginton could do really well for us in Left. Plus it would allow us to trade Stairs and bring in something else.
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fair point. i missed that.
i’ll say it again. welcome back james.
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sigh.
http://www.realclearsports.com/articles/2008/07/do_strikeouts_matter_the_curio.html
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Howard/Dunn in the same line up would be brutal. My head would explode watching them stike out 400 times a year. Plus he’s another left handed hitter who can’t hit left handed pitching.
.195/.351/.422 10 Homers.
We would be way way way to left handed. That’s why I don’t understand the talk of Ibanez either.
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Ibanez had a flukish year against LHP in 2008; .305/.368/.497, supported by an unsustainable .351 BABIP. His more recent splits against LHP
2007: .256/.294/.356
2006: .243/.301/.362
Dunn on the other hand had a freakishly low BA against LHP in 2008; .195/.351/.422 with a BABIP of .233. In recent seasons
2007: .239/.353/.436
2006: .270/.393/.503
Strikeouts don’t matter. Would your head also explode watching Dunn hit 40 HR this year in the #6 spot in our lineup? He’s 8 years, thats right, 8 years younger than Ibanez.
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I don’t want either of them personally. The middle of our order already struggles when teams bring in their Loogy’s. Adding another Left hander to that is brutal.
06 looks like a fluke more than anything, because his right handed splits took a ridiculous hit that year.
03 – .202/.333/.454
04 – .256/.362/.467
05 – .197/.321/.463
06 – .270/.393/.503
07 – .239/.353/.436
08 – .195/.351/.422
I’m not a huge Dunn basher, I just don’t think he’s a good fit for our line up. If he came very cheap I’d be cool with it, but I think bringing back Burrell or getting another right hander would be the best option.
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Off topic a bit but its good to have you posting again James. It makes this a much better site.
Ibanez seems to be ripe for a regression towards his career norms against lefties. Sure, he has always killed righties but we already have a lineup that does that. I’d hate to have an opposing bullpen bring in a LOOGY for an entire inning with Utley/Howard/Ibanes 3/4/5.
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by the way, where was all this “strikeouts don’t matter” stuff when analyzing greg golson. that seemed to be the constant knock on him.
is your point that strikeouts don’t matter at the mlb level but they do at the minor leagues level?
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If you really look at beside ob% Pat Burrell wasnt much of a fit against left handers either only 7 HR ,20 rbi but he did hit a lot of doubles which is strange
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PP Fan, Strikeouts do matter at the minor league level because it’s a great indicator of being able to make contact at the next level. Howard and Dunn are plus power hitters, you think Double G would hit 30 homers in the majors without showing the ability to make good contact at AA?
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no one ever said GG would put up 30 hrs. that is not comparable. but the point is there are plenty of minor leaguers who strike out a lot but are considered able to hit at the next level
– jay bruce: 1k/game average and a 3-1 k to walk ration
– travis snider: more than 1k/game and a 2.5-1 k to walk ratio
– cameron maybin: ditto.
but for some reason, with golson, the opinion was, well, he can’t hit.
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Scott Lauber is my favorite beat writer. He is blogging about a proposed Carrasco for Atkins trade from Vegas. But what goes on in Vegas this time stays in Vegas.
http://www.delawareonline.com/blogs/phillies.html
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Strikeouts don’t matter when you make up for them with secondary skills. Dunn draws a ton of walks, which offsets the strikeouts. He hits for a low average because he swings and misses a lot, but he’s still well above average in terms of OB% because he draws 90-100 walks every year. You don’t have to make contact all the time to have value, but if you don’t make lots of contact, you need to have quality secondary skills. Golson couldn’t draw walks, and likely doesn’t figure to hit more than 15-20 HR a year in the big leagues. Those secondary skills don’t support a 30% K rate.
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The key sentence in that proposed trade is the Phillies are “absolutely unwilling” to trade Carrasco…at least not for Garrett Atkins. It sounds as if the Rockies called us, not the other way around.
Golson’s biggest issue is curveballs…and sliders…and anything that isn’t straight.
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I don’t think phuturephillies is necessarily advocating that we sign Adam Dunn — I think he’s merely highlighting how awful a signing Raul Ibanez would be. In addition to Ibanez being 8 years older and an inferior hitter, he’s just as bad (and maybe worse) a fielder, and he’d cost a 1st round draft pick. And the way the market’s shaping up right now, I can’t imagine Dunn getting much more than the $11+ million that Ibanez is rumored to be in line for. Bottom line: if you don’t want Dunn, then why in God’s name would you want Ibanez?
And as far as Carrasco for Atkins goes… no thanks. Atkins will command $6-7 million in arbitration this year, is one of the worst fielding 3B in baseball, and — here’s the kicker — sports an OPS+ of 81 away from Coors Field in his career.
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****And as far as Carrasco for Atkins goes… no thanks****
Well that’s what Amaro said too so I don’t think we have to worry.
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I agree no carasco for atkins! I would trade happ for atkins though.
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is anyone else not that concerned w/ left field? I think we could get this possible production and know what we have in mayberry. also taylor and brown coming soon. Jenkins: 250-10- 35 in 250 ab-stairs 260-11-30 in 200 ab-mayberry-240-11- 25 in 150 ab.dobbs might pick up some ab’s as well. Don’t think he should get a lot, love him off the bench!
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They will sign someone, I’d be shocked if they went into next year without someone new. Mayberry will most likely be in AAA most of the year.
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You people are way off on Ibanez. I think it because somebody wrote that he is not the fastest, and he’s not, that somehow translates into as slow as Burrell or Dunn. They may be a few better fielders, but that doesn’t mean he is at the Burrell or Dunn level, there, either. People want to constantly parrot a bunch of Bill James type stats, but somehow with Burrell and Dunn it becomes “homers and rbi’s, homers and rbi’s” . Fact is Burrell and Dunn don’t have the “ballplayer look” while Ibanez has the look.
As far as this constant obsessing over age goes. Ibanez is in excellent condition, is a conditioning fanatic with many oft-performed carefully selected routine, and his own hyper-baric chamber. I wager he is physiologically younger than either Dunn or Burrell (yet, though this concept may be totally over the head of the stat-reader). People who want to evaluate only on the basis of stats, you should look into the concept of clutchness, Ibanez’ got it. Better option than those 2 all the way around.
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Just flipped over to ESPN. Phillies signed Raul Ibanez, 3 years -30 million.
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Blaaaah.
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So don’t count on anyone being added to our prospect list from next year’s draft. Ugh.
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Losing a 1st round pick once every 5 yrs isn’t a big deal if we draft well. I do understand we won’t be picking till about #70 but a good draft could counter that.
I just don’t know if Ibanez is worth 3 yrs though. He’ll be 40, but hey Moise Alou did well for the MEts, but barely played. And we now have alot of lefties on this team. This may mean Jenkins or Stairs is gone. I mean we have more lefties than pitchers!
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Maybe we’ll get another Tim Moss type player!!!
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I only wonder if Burrell would have signed for that number. I tend to think not, though but we’ll know by the end of the winter. I do think Ibanez and Burrell are pretty comparable in value, but in context of the Phillies, I’m not so sure.
I wonder mostly how the lineup will stack up. It was bad enough with Howard behind Utley, but now our 3 best power producers are lefty (and Ibanez does have a pretty big platoon split, even if it didn’t play out in 130 at bats in 08). I cannot imagine manual will be so dumb as to hit them all back to back, though his refusal to separate Utley and Howard makes me nervous. I don’t know if you put Werth in the 5 spot, or maybe put him in the 3 spot and move Utley to the 2 spot. Whatever the case, this makes Manual’s job far more tactictly complicated, and that is not a strong-suit.
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He’s a great clubhouse and character guy…and overall he’s a great hitter. If UC is able to find a way to split up the 3 leftys in the lineup then this could be a very good deal. He’s also a gym rat so he won’t be coming to camp out of shape most likely.
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Signing Burrell to a 2-year deal for $30 million would have been better than this. Unless we use the rest of our “money saved” to sign someone like Derek Lowe.
As far as the draft goes… I wonder if the splashes this year (Shreve, Cosart) were spurred on by knowledge that we’d likely be signing a Type A free agent of some sort. My whole problem with this is: I can rationalize losing a 1st round pick to sign a premier player, like a Lowe or a Teixeira, but this is just a waste when Burrell could have been had for no draft pick compensation.
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We had some good picks after #70 and my least favorite pick when considering how high the guy was taken was the 1st round pick (Hewitt!). If the Phils show they are willing to spend $ in later rounds they can still put together a decent draft.
What happens if another Type A (who was offered arb.) is signed?
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…also, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Werth batting 3rd (with Utley 2nd) or 5th (with Utley 3rd) to break them up a little.
I would have rather had Burrell…but that could just be me being sentimental.
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Marfis – “the look of a ball player”? is that how we should judge a player? jeff jackson where are you now?
i like this pick up. consistently high percentages and good power the past 4 years.
obviously i don’t like losing a first round pick, but maybe we can use the money for non-first rounder on an international player. let’s give amaro a chance before we bash it.
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I don’t think Burrell would have taken a 2-yr deal at all.
This is a confusing signning. However, Burell only batted about .10 points higher against lefties for his career than Ibanez. Also, Ibanez gets the bat on the ball much better than Burrells upercut swing. How many ducks have been left on the pond for Burrell and he has come up empty over the years? Ibanez will make up with the loss of power in average and production.
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From Keith Law’s Insider Free Agent Rankings, KLaw has him at 35. He had Dunn at 7 (No draft pick either). This will make you all collectively puke:
Ibanez has managed to hold his level of performances deep into his 30s, something very unusual for an unathletic player who doesn’t offer any defensive value. Still, his 2008 performance got an artificial boost from a sudden spike in his performance against left-handed pitchers, whom he didn’t hit at all the prior two years. Given a platoon partner, he’s an adequate DH solution who’ll provide patience and some power, but less of these things than, say, Jason Giambi. The shortage of open DH spots also hurts his cause
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I wasn’t referring to a still photo. I mean looking at film , they had some on ESPN last night.
Like I said, better fielder and baserunner than Burrell. All that left-right junk is over-rated. What? You scared of Scott Scheonweiss?
Anybody who thinks Pat the Bat will make $ 15 million a year, I don’t see it. I’ll entertain the notion he might make $8 million a year. But I could see $4 million a year or less.
I could also see Pat the Bat still looking for work on opening day. I think he will probably get a one year contract.
And people wanted to give him arbitration, which would have paid him $16 million a year.
If Phillies sign more Type A’s they surrender a 2nd, etc. right down the line. Don’t see a problem with that.
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Kieth Law is a stat-oriented speculator , lacking in understanding what matters.
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And that used to work for the Toronto Blue Jays deal doesn’t get it with me, either. Teams keep a few “stat-boys” around to appeal to that segment of their fan-base who are blow-hard self over-rating computer geeks.
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If Phillies sign more Type A’s they surrender a 2nd, etc. right down the line. Don’t see a problem with that.
Really? Do you remember why our farm system was so bad in the first place? Keith Law does this for a LIVING. Sorry man but I’ll go off his word anyday. This is a terrible signing on so many levels.
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Whatever…I am done caring, lets see what rubes master plan is….I am crossing my fingers for Lowe…if the Yanks sign AJ will they really also want to pay 66 mil for Lowe?
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If we don’t have a 1st rounder might as well go down the line and get Lowe (who will replace Myers well next year with Carrasco stepping in full time) and Juan Cruz (who will replace Madson well next year, Boras is going to get him closer money somewhere if he performs well again).
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If they spend those draft picks on quality MLB players they can forgoe those picks and make it up otherwise. How many of the top prospects on here were top draft picks? Not that many, and a few 1st rounders,etc. were roundly considered bad picks.
Kieth Law writes for a living. I read about everything he writes because I find it entertaining. I have read enough to understand how he thinks. It is clear he doesn’t understand what is important, by what he emphasizes.
He favors obscure Bill James type stats over things that actually matter toward the winning of a game.
Runs matter more, RBI’s mattter more. Home runs matter somewhat. Making contact with the ball matter somewhat.
Obscure Bill James type stats, which are usually just a few unrelate stats that some “llook at me I made up a stat” type added together, matter less.
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Shoulda just resigned Burrell. If Jason Werth regresses or gets hurts, we’re in trouble.
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And who are all these “great prospects’ that were frittered away? Adam Eaton? Well, now you got him back. Happy,now? Elizarco Ramirez? Recently a 6 year minor league free agent, so you could have had him back, too.
I am sure there is many more they could have back , also.
And who knows who the Phillies would have taken with draft choices they had anyhow? Anything that happened B.G. (before Gillick) does not matter anyhow.
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Marfis: Keith isn’t just a journalist that writes to entertain. He sees players often, and worked as an assistant general manager. He believes in the stats because they are reliable, valid and have proven to be great predictors of success (Just look at BP’s PECOTA projections from last year if you don’t believe me). Yes homeruns matter, and yes I hope Raul Ibanez remains productive into his age 38, 39, and 40 seasons. But honestly, and history tells us, that RARELY does this happen. If you can name anyone that consistently was productive into these seasons (not PED players), please let me know, I want to like this deal but it is terrible. The floor is yours.
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as for the obvious lefty problem it seems werth will really have to deliver.and 3 years once again brown or taylor if they develop will be blocked.in my opinion burrell was the better choice.this makes marson and donald being on the opening day roster even more important. actually derosa for kendrick and paulino or coste would have made more sense. 3 righty hitters werth,feliz,and ruiz. 2 sh rollins and vic. 3 lefties utley,howard and ibanez.
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Ahh good point John, WTF do the Phillies do if Mike Taylor is tearing the cover off the ball in Reading? Just let Raul Ibanez block him?
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Utley
Hamels
Myers
Burrell
A significant part of our core for the last 5 years came from the first round. A very good selection in round 5 in Howard, and a 2nd round pick in Rollins. THe draft is a big lottery. You want as many tickets as possible.
This is wrong on many levels. He understands what is most important; not making outs. On Base % isn’t an obscure stat. VORP and WARP are no longer obscure stats. RBI’s are nearly meaningless, because they are a team/lineup dependent stat, and are a function of situational hitting, which generally fluctuates from year to year. “Making contact” doesn’t matter, not making outs is what matters.
Thats the standard answer for people who feel that they “watch the games” and don’t need numbers to explain the game to them. Lots of teams around baseball rely on the work Bill James has done. The most successful organizations over the last 10 years have been built on the tenets of James’ work. People realize how important on base % is, how a stat like Secondary Average tells you a hundred times more than batting average, and how strikeouts aren’t more relevant than any other kind of out (except GIDP, which is much worse than a strikeout, and is the result of “making contact”)
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Taylor and Brown, as I understand, can play both corners and Werth is a FA at the end of this year, so no one is blocked. If Taylor forces their hand they won’t resign Werth. Simple as pie.
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Letting your only legit RH bat leave and replacing him with a rookie probably isn’t a smart choice. If Taylor really forces their hand in 2010, it will be a nice problem to have, but i doubt it will cause them to let Werth walk.
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If the pads are telling the truth and are going to keep peavey, I think we could revisit in july and offer werth if taylor is tearing it up, kendrick and either brown or taylor. this of course if the phillies are still in it. It would hurt us a little in the lineup but pitching wins games in the playoffs! This staff gets us back to the big game i think
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No, it isn’t, but ‘forcing the hand’ to me means Taylor or Brown does something like Howard where an injury gives them the chance to show they are ready.
Either way it’ll probably be an issue of Werth getting an offer the Phillies can’t match in 2010.
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I object to Hamels calling the mets “choke artists”
some of my best friend are artists
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So, Ty Wigginton non-tendered. If he is good enough defensively , who knows? Maybe he is signed, if he is thought to be. Then Feliz to Astros, Indians, or Minnesota.
Other interesting non-tenders: Daniel Cabrera, Tim Redding, Takashi Saito, others.
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Jonny Gomes and his career .879 OPS against leftys is available as well.
Saito would be interesting if his elbow is fully healthy.
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rodeo you seem to have a blind spot about werth. the point is if taylor replaces werth your not changing the overload of lefty to righy hitters which affects howard and utley. your simply replacing 1 rh with another. nepp whats the scoop on gomes,baldelli also might be a good fit.
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Wigginhton–On the other hand , if Wigginton is not that great a fielder , they could slide Feliz to the bench. I think he could play all the infield positions on a limited basis. If Utley starts the season a little late, Feliz could be the fill-in there, and late in games slide to 3rd. After Utley returns Feliz could be a late inning defensive replacement at 3rd.
As far as I know, Gomes is an outfielder only, right. I somehow got the impression he’s not that good of a fielder, and some noteworthy behaviour patterns. And , regardless of what anyone thinks of recent events, I don’t think they are looking for someone to platoon with their big “get” in Free Agency.
They say Colorado is interested in Tim Redding. He pitched a couple very good games against the Phillies last season. I seen them on the Washington station. If no-one remembers they can look ’em up. Not that bad a player.
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just out of curiousity i checked the nl starters. based on 5 man staffs 16 teams that is 80 starters.17 are lefthanded with only a hanful dominant. what did the phils hit against lefty starters last year?
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Raul Ibanez had same number of HR against LHP as Burrell
in fact all stats against lefties were similar Not that i like the trade but Burrell averaged less than 10 Hr a year against lefties the last three years
Problem is I see no loong range planning again just plug in 30 mil when u need a stopgap Same old merd
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the more i look at this the more i am beginning to think the left – right batting order is not as important as i thought. as i said above 16 teams 80 starters. 17 lefties, in their division santana and maybe a. miller from florida are lh you dont like.lannin james decent.but bthey play their division 76 times. so out of 84 out of division games theyell only face frances,lilly duke maholm lowry johnson etc app. 15 times in their division app 15 starts. so it looks like thell face lefty starters app.30 times of which half will be v.good. 15 starts doesnt look like the difference i thought. so this ibanez trade is begihhing to look better. it looks like j.happ is going to be in the rotation,thank god.the main thing in mop is donald and marson on the roster,and who is your final starter moyer,carrasco,park.
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@ John from Philly – I don’t think it’ll fix things if Taylor replaces Werth, I’m just making a prediction on the 2010 off-season.
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I am beginning to think keeping Gillick around was a big
mistake
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Chan Ho Park signs here.
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and i didnt get to hug moyer goodbye
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Moyer signed a 2 year deal.
This franchise really baffles me at times.
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In that case, it’s official: Raul Ibanez is this offseason’s big acquisition.
Now we just have to pray the Mets don’t scoop up Derek Lowe or we’re in real trouble.
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Anything other than Howard Eskin as the source for the Moyer signing news?
Park– I say , Park competes for the 4th spot in the rotation with younger candidate like Happ, Kendrick, Carrasco , and the like. Park competes for the 11th spot (I say Condrey is candidate for 12th spot) with errr.. Joseph Bisenius or the left out starters and the like.
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Who wants to confess, among those singing the blues about not tossing away a pile of money on veteran over-rated types like Derek Lowe , were wailing after last season’s Johan Santana signing by the Mets , that the Mets would be champs and Philly had no chance? And how many in years’ past set up the same houl for Barry Zito, Carlos Silva, Kevin Brown, Mike Hampton, and on and on and on.
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Hamels, Myers, Blanton, Moyer, (Happ or Carrasco?)
Durbin, Park, Madson, Lidge, Condrey, (Happ?), Romero, Eyre.
Well, if the Mets sign D. Lowe and it’s beginning to look like they will think they are a better team on paper, clearly, than the Phillies. Of course they still issues and paper doesn’t mean anything. Not really the kind of offseason you’d like to see from Amaro in his first go round.
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just saw utleys news conference as i said hell be ready for opening day. moyer 4th 5th open although amaro said carrasco had the highest upside. park in the pen my opinion. happ or carrasco 5th as i read it. good sign amaro mentioned donald twice in high terms which leads me to believe he will be the 1st guy off the bench, he mentioned brunlett but both times behind donald. bad sign he didnt mention marson, which brings up the ridiculous signing of paulino.
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I think the team is pretty much set.
I could have dealt with Ibanez if the savings from Burrell were used to go towards Lowe, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. The savings will likely be going towards all of the arbitration cases that are coming up.
Marson is great but I don’t think it’s terrible they’re prepared for him to not be ready to play in the majors next year. He was only at AA for one year, it’s not like he’s banging at the door. I think he would have been fine but being prepared for him to be rough behind the plate is fine.
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Marson working next year on balls in the dirt to prepare him defensively and continuing his development at Lehigh will be a good thing.
Lowe will be a different pitcher away from Dodger stadium—-the Dodgers don’t seem too interested in keeping him.
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so is Peavy who had dominated the dodgers and been .500
everywhere else
Does it seem likely that they never wanted to trade Peavy
some weird baseball mindgame
mwbbfan
Understand this “you cant learn to hit major league pitching in the minor” Marson is ready
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From the Good Phight, Thought this was HILARIOUS:
Paulino is young enough and good enough to let us trade Marson if we need to- By one poster
If Marson is traded because of Ronny ****ing Paulino I will tear off your arms and bludgeon Rube to death with them. Ronny Paulino isn’t good — he’s a decent backup or marginal starter, no more than a stopgap.- Response by poster Phatj
Nothing like a little love on the message boards.
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As to the team being set….Reuben says he has made contact with “20 or so” non-tendered free agents….as per Scott Lauber.
As to Marson, the all mighty Kieth Law says that Marson hits too many ground balls and compared him to Clay Dalrymple. Have seen this theory elsewhere, such as by John Sickel.
Their evaluations mean little to me, as it has not been proven their evaluations are any more useful than that of the lowest jerk poster on the internet.
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As to my statement u cant learn to hit major league hitting
in the minors let me revise that for Paulino
You cant learn NOT to hit major league pitching in the minor
No one and i say it again “no one” knows until they get here
no one
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****If Marson is traded because of Ronny ****ing Paulino I will tear off your arms and bludgeon Rube to death with them.****
Classic post.
And I have also seen the Marson hits too many linedrives theory. His BABIP supports that theory as does his GB/FB rates. Not alot of power happening with that swing….lots of linedrives though…which will hopefully continue to fall in.
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Why bother to have a minor league system at all if you can’t learn to hit major league pitching until you get to the major leagues?
Just draft the players and immediately put them on the big league roster. Those that can hit will those who can’t wont.
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I wouldn’t really get excited about non-tendered free agents.
As far as people who will play, the team is set, and IMHO is at best equal to the team that came out last year. Everyone else got better.
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At first glance I didn’t like the Ibanez signing only because we are left handed heavy already but if you look at both deals the Mets made in their bullpen Putz and K-Rod it would kind of neutralize itself. Still it’s my opinion that they should have taken a chance on Milton Bradley. He could definitely hold down the 3 hole then become perfect protection for Howard in the 5 slot as SH with good power from both sides of the plate.
Water under the bridge I know but it brings me to the point of Donald. I have no shame I have man love for that kid and believe he can hit .290 at the next level with decent power in CBP he opens the season for me at 3b Bruntlet fills in at 2b til Utley is ready.
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Well, let’s see. Those who have Werth as a given for next season, and think it is a priority to re-sign, might note that Werth of one of previous non-tenders. Many are non-tendered because their past team did not want to pay what they would get in arbitration. There are many instances of non-tenders doing well. I am not excited so much , because with the possible exception of Ty Wigginton, most would be bench candidates. They have sought a utility player . Aaron Miles, Angel Berroa, Jonathon Herrera, Jason Smith, could all at least fill that role and would likely be desired to do more for other teams.
The claim that the current team is only the equal of last years is questionable at best. Last year’s rotation had Kyle Kendrick as a bulwark and also Adam Eaton, and it stayed that way for most of the season. Now they start with Joe Blanton, and either Carrasco, Happ, Chan Ho Park, or others. I say that is improvement without doubt. The possible change of Ronny Paulino for Chris Coste is certainly a talent upgrade, performance shall be determined later. The way I project the team, the placing of Donald as an infield reserve and sliding Dobbs to the outfield to replace So Taguchi might be considered an upgrade. Bruntlett stays and perhaps Matt Stairs might go in for Jenkins, those 2 things are the only moves that might be seen as the same. The entire bulk of the team has another season of high-quality experience and the confidence of champions. And last, but certainly not least, everyone who knows anything knows the replacement of Pat Burrell with Raul Ibanez, is a major, major upgrade. As world champion manager, Charley Manuel just stated in this morning’s paper , he won’t have to defensively replace or pinch run for Ibanez, despite the projections of some “stats evaluation only” types. I find the claim that next seasons team as equal to last’s at best, dubious.
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marf i dont know what the fixation with ty wigganton is but he stinks. marson is getting screwed if he is sent to aaa,he cant practice digging breaking balls out of the dirt here? paulino and kendrick for a righty bat to platoon with ibanez. remember this the staff will be hamels, myers, blanton,moyer, and happ. utley will be ready opening day, howard , rollins feliz donald 1st guy off the bench ruiz and marson. ibanez and rh in left, vic in cf, and werth in rf. brunlett,jenkins and dobbs off the bench. lidge,madson,eyre,romero,durbin,condrey and park in the pen. thats 26 1 goes. condrey to aaa. carrasco inthe wings.
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I doubt they look for a RH hitter to platoon with Ibanez as he has played full time for virtually his entire career, hit .297 (around that), against LHP’s, and though many will be quick to point out his career average is lower, it is still around .268 which is not bad. Those that claim that it is should look at the whole of baseball.
Another thing I question in your projection, is that they only carry 6 relievers for a total of 11 pitchers. Perhaps , they carry an extra bench man very early in the season, but in the long term for the season, nothing seems less likely.
And projecting it season long so they can have a Right-Handed hitting Outfielder to platoon with Raul Ibanez, I find that highly dubious.
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I’d say Werth is the exception to the rule of non-tenders. His injury made him available. Most of the guys would be complementary pieces.
When I say ‘same team as last year’ I’m referring to the team as it was constructed when they won the World Series, because that’s what really matters, doesn’t it? I don’t see any major updgrades to the 25 guys that were spraying champagne.
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3up3kkk Says
Why bother to have a minor league system at all if you can’t learn to hit major league pitching until you get to the major leagues?
Dont be insulting u know what i mean. mlb is the final test
and u cant pass the test until u get in school
and other wise cracks
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Let’s not forget that Marson is 22 and has had but 4 AB’s above AA. Let’s also not forget that catcher is a VERY important defensive position. If a pitcher is not comfortable that you can catch his best stuff, he may not throw his best stuff. There is a reason that Ruiz, in spite of his offensive shortcomings, caught every single important inning the past two seasons.
All that being said, I’d love for Marson to start the season in Philadelphia. But having a little insurance around is not a bad thing.
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thought i had 12 pitchers could be wrong but we must have 12 if i misstated that. as far as ibanez platooning i didnt bring up mayberry who could hopefully be a plesant surprise and not a full platoon 75 – 25.obviously your up the middle defense is the most important thats why i want marson only to start 2 games a week,the same as donald. and as far as aa dont forget that generally aa is easily more difficult than aaa.at least in the eastern league. there are too many opportunities for donald and marson to learn in the show not to have them here.resting feliz and ruiz, blowouts,different pitchers who marson has caught. its not real difficult.by the end of the they both should be playing or ready to play full time anyway, because thats where theyll be next 2010 anyway,so you want them ready. not having them here just postpones this year 1 year when its not needed.
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I would like to see mayberry be the primary rh outfield platoon. I don’t think we should go in with both stairs and jenks being lh, not to mention dobbs. He’ll be turning 25 this month and deserves a legit shot in ST. AA appears to be the new AAA as far as talent, as AAA has a lot of older non-prospect ready to fill in in emergency types. He may struggle a little at first but should provide a power bat off the bench and as john mentioned we need to get some of our young guys some ab’s for the future (2010). If KK wins the job in st. I would like to see happ in the pen, not sure if kk is a fi t there. Definitely no park want him in the pen. I also would like to see at least 4-8 games with CC starting particularly if injuries arise( no carpenter) CC will likely be a starter in 2010 and needs som ML experience. We could also trade coste and stairs unless someone would take jenks off our hand for a reduced sal. and get a RH comparable to just stairs to platoon.
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This may be way out there but I’d love to get a top tier 3b prospect like matt gamel from brew crew. They have guys who can play there like hall or weeks if moved from second. Does anyone think Donald whom i love as a prospect, kendrick who has back to back double digit win totals by age 23, paulino because they have nobody at backup to kendal and who hits even less than paulino, and their choice of either savery, bastardo, garcia, naylor or sampson. does anyone like this proposal or does it lean too much one way?
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Let’s see. A top prospect, 2 major leaguers, and an additional team top 10 prospect for…a prospect with 2 major league at bats . If Milwaukee wanted Paulino I believe they could have offered Pittsburgh more than Jason Jaramillo. Anyway offering a boatload of players simply is rarely done. Especially not for prospect Matt Gamel. And another Left Handed batter at that. Even the people on here would put up a howl. Who do you think Gamel is..Von Hayes?
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No NoWheels, I don’t know what you mean.
You seemed to be insinuating that Marson/Donald would be wasted in AAA ball because they won’t improve without being on the major league roster, facing ML pitching. If that is you point, than I completely disagee.
If you point is that we won’t know for sure how good these guys will be against ML pitching until they face it on a regular basis then we are in agreement.
But regardless of the point you’re making, both Donald and Marson still have some learning to do, be it at the AAA level or as a member of the 25-man roster.
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lets see a shortstop without a home ranked much lower than gamel by most experts, a pitcher with an era of 5.48 who may not make the team, a backup catcher and a pitcher that wouldn’t crack most team top ten prospect lists. I read a fantasy comparison of gamel yesterday, comparing him to chase utley when he reaches his prime. They also had number projections which i think are too high but should tell u what people think of gamel. It was something like 317-38-115. This trade would be well worth it if he averaged 290-28-95 in his prime years.
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Gamel is nothing like Chase Utley offensively.
And hes a butcher defensively, he’s limited to 1B and LF in the big leagues.
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yes the butcher part is well documented, but i’m a little tired of the bell, feliz type 3b man. At 23 there is still time to improve in the field ala chase who was somewhat of a butcher himself at 2b. I was disapointed with feliz’s production offensively, realy thought he would better his numbers from the prior year. was hoping for 255-24-90. PP do u think these #’s are possible in a full year for feliz? I love his D. I guess the only area I’m concerned about for the future is 3b so i’m trying to think of some possible sollutions. Not sure mattair is the answer, id love for donald to be the answer at 3d. What is your best guess as to how donald will do of and def. at 3b for phils
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Its a two pronged question.
1. What do we have to give up to get Gamel?
2. Does his bat offset his poor defense?
My projection on Gamel is basically a .280/.350 type with 30 2B, 18-20 HR power. That’s good, but not awesome at 3B, and I honestly think his glove is 15-20 runs below average there. And with those kinds of projections, hes not an elite prospect. In fact, I’d rather have Donald than him, because Donald can play SS passably, and can play 2B as well.
I just don’t buy the Gamel hype. As for Feliz, he is what he is. .250/.310 with 20 HR is a good season for him. Hes coming off back surgery, and his defense slipped in 2008, but he was excellent the previous two seasons.
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Just thought playing in the bank might add 4 0r 5 homeruns to feliz’s numbers. Do u see donald as a utility guy in the future or the answer to our 3b problem? I also think we need to get donald 250-300 at bats this year to see if he is a major league ready hitter and 25-35 starts at 3b to see if he is a ml 3dbaseman. If he’s not we will need to get a FA
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just went to w-sox web to check out josh fields and saw he only had 32 at bats. i would have assumed it was due to injury but he only batted .158. We might want to make a trade with them for fields and buy low. I’m assuming the are going forward with crede. Im a little nervous dealing with the sox as they took us to the cleaner last time-gio and g-floyd for freddy mercury and his one win for us.
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I would disagree that Feliz was excellent the previous two seasons. He is one of two players in MLB to have an active 4-year streak of 450+ PAs and an OPS of .717 or less. The other player is Jason Kendall. He is what he is, and his numbers don’t change much from year to year. I find it unreasonable to expect them to change much going into the future.
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He was excellent defensively. Hes never even been a league average hitter.
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3up3kk
Lets agree to disagree. Just one point the Eagles faced inferior
competion won and failed to upgrade. There is a lesson there
so as i see it the Phils have one or two years to develop their won Minaya wont be around long (see Putz stats this year especially 0-0 and 0-1 and compare with last year) Plus once the Marlins get in their stadium they have to get off their butts
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Gotchya PP. Misunderstood what you were trying to say.
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Can’t say it really matters what the Eagles did, especially since I’m a Steeler fan 🙂 and the Marlins will always be a small market team in a regular state of flux, new stadium or not.
As for the Phillies, that certainly appear to be developing their own, just at their own pace rather than yours. Donald/Marson/Carrasco are on their way to becoming ML contributers sooner rather than later and the next wave of talent is filtering into the AA/A+ ranks at ever increasing rates.
Promoting players before they are ready isn’t the same as upgrading! Its better to be a little late with a prospect vs. overwhelming them before they are ready to handle it. (see Floyd, Gavin!!)
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i agree and don’t understand why our system is ranked so low since we consistently generate quality players from our system and seem to have a lot of talent in the farm-collier, hewitt,knapp, d. brown, m taylor, drabek, garcia,donald, marson, d’arnaud, happ, carasco,etc.
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The big problem was the 2003 and 2004 drafts. In 2003 we didn’t pick until the 3rd round because of free agent signings, and our first 5 picks were
3 – Tim Moss (washed out)
4 – Michael Bourn (part of big trade)
5 – Javon Moran (hasn’t developed, looks to be a career minor leaguer at this point)
6 – Jordan Parraz (Didn’t sign)
7 – Kyle Kendrick
Kendrick contributed in 2007, but he’s not a marquee talent. High school kids drafted in 2003 would have been in their 5th full season in 2008, ie, major league ready or beating down the door. We obviously turned Bourn into Lidge, so you can’t complain there.
We didn’t cough up picks in 2004, but the first 5 picks were
1 – Golson (we know the story)
2 – Jaramillo (didn’t develop as planned)
3 – Happ
4 – Marson
5 – Andy Baldwin (traded)
Happ and Marson should be part of the future here, or at worst, help us trade for other players. Golson developed slowly and ultimately wasn’t a success here. The 2003 draft was bad. Had we had a first round pick, we may have ended up with a guy like Conor Jackson (19th overall), Chad Cordero (20th), Chad Billingsley (24th), Carlos Quentin (29th) or Jarrod Saltalamacchia (36th). Instead we got Tim Moss in the 3rd round.
I expect more contribution from farm hands in 2009. I expressed my worry about the Ibanez signing in terms of the draft because I don’t want to see a repeat of 2003 and a potential void in the pipeline.
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Anybody who is interested… David Murphy has up a list of some signings of non-roster invitees (including Cervanek , A. Tracy and some you heard of earlier in the offseason.
And some minor league free agents: highlighted by the re-signing of former 1st rounder Justin Pope, the return of Yoel Hernandez, And now they not only got Bastardo, they got Yorman Bazardo. At least they’re my highlights.
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Bastardo and Bazardo Lead Phillies to 2011 World Series Victory!!!
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3up3kkk
?
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Call the 03 and 04 drafts failures from a talent development point, at least right now. However, the 03 and 04 drafts were partially responsible for Lidge and Moyer. So I mean, I don’t think you can call them a complete wash.
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Ducky the only reason they got Lidge is they traded the picks back to the talking jackass who made the picks
lol
And the Mariners arent real smart either
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Mariners example
Jeremy Reed a player i would like to take a flyer on.
A dead on leadoff hitter ob% AA 441 Instead of moving Ichiro
to 2nd which means he would of batted with Reed on base a lot .they kept batting donkeys 8 and 9. If Echiro was against it you bat reed 9. But oh no Reed batted all over the lineup
P.s I consider classsic leadoff men onto theemselves. unlike others
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ah cheese Rocco Baldelli doesnt bad mitocondria He has a treatable condition. Damn he would of look great here
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wonder if his agent has any connections in the medical field? seems like uncanny timing for this to come out about rocco. I’d still be a little hesitant if i were other gm’s. He sure looked like a budding superstar a few years ago. He could be high risk high reward.
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The Cubs finally get rid of Mark DeRosa for a decent pitcher and two guys named hope and prayer. Why?? Perfect player for a contender right.
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ok A Mikes is who they wanted would of been nice here. A bruntlett who can play baseball
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i have semi deduced that the signing of ibanez makes no sense unless they have no faith in brown or taylor. burrell for 2 years makes much more sense than ibanez for 3. and please stop with burrell cant play left.he,s certainly no gazelle but he catches what he gets to and has a great arm. vic in cf makes his lack of range passible. so unless burrell lost a limb since october i just cant justify signing ibanez. unless they did not realize the market was going to be so depressed or as i said they have no faith in brown or taylor which at this point would be insane.
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Maybe because Jenkins, Stairs, and Werth all become FA’s after 2009 and Victorino is a FA the following year? By 2010 they will probably need at least 2 new OF’ers and probably a 3rd the following year?
There will be plenty of room for Taylor/Brown when they are ready…
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On edit, It doesn’t appear that Victorino will be a FA until after 2011 rather than after 2010 so they will probably only need 2 new OF’s rather than 3 by 2011..
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3 up 3kkk jenkins and stairs are non factors, the only reason jenkins is still here is contractual. werth i believe will break in a new category this year as a dominant of, just my opinion, and the phillies are in no position not to resign him. please give me your thoughts as to the advantage of ibanez over burrell, since stairs and jenkins dont hold water.
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