Phillies Add Joseph, Dugan, Altherr, and Rasmussen to 40 Man Roster

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Not a lot of in depth analysis here, the three position players were must-adds due to their upside.  The Phillies acquired Rasmussen for Michael Young and saw enough to add him.  Rasmussen in a starting role is more of a #5 starter, but out of the bullpen the stuff could tick up more.

More on the Rule V and who could be in danger when we get closer to the Winter Meetings.

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About Matt Winkelman

Matt is originally from Mt. Holly, NJ, but after a 4 year side track to Cleveland for college he now resides in Madison, WI. His work has previously appeared on Phuture Phillies and The Good Phight. You can read his work at Phillies Minor Thoughts

48 thoughts on “Phillies Add Joseph, Dugan, Altherr, and Rasmussen to 40 Man Roster”

  1. Hard to imagine Gillies, Valle and Collier keeping spots on the 40 man. I would hate to lose someone with upside at the expensive of those three.

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    1. Yes he was. Interestingly, on the Phillies 40-man roster, they list Hernandez as an OF, rather than as an IF. I missed Valle as I scanned the roster, initially. His retention is truly astonishing. Unless he’s had a long, lingering injury, which the Phillies haven’t disclosed, his regression is really stark. It’s sort of deja vu for me, having watched Marson regress at the same point in his Phillies career.

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          1. I wonder if the Giants draft him back from us. I also wonder what happened to him, while he was under Phillies tutelage. His last year and a half with SF, he was a huge strikeout pitcher, with close to 10 K/9. In this year and a half with us, his K rate is close to halved. That happened in 2012, at the same A+ level for both teams, and then persisted throughout 2013. He seemed unlucky in ERA in 2013 in AA, but he just wasn’t the pitcher with the Phillies that he was for the Giants.

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            1. The Phillies made him a starter. That often cuts down on K rates, but it was pretty drastic. Wonder if they were trying to get him to throw more groundballs also, as he hadn’t done enough of that in 2012 compared to his 2011. His FO/AO rate stayed about the same from ’12 to ’13, as even though his GB rate rose, his FB rate did as well, thanks in part to many more balls in play with that flagging K rate, and slightly decreased walk and LD rates.

              Wonder where he’d be if they’d left him in the bullpen. Can’t help but think he’d be knocking on the door to the bigs and on the 40-man roster right now. If I’m another team looking at him, I would absolutely risk the $25k return loss on taking a look at him in the spring. We’ll see in a couple weeks.

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            3. I guess because his velocity is not necessarily high, he might be not great. But thinking about him versus like a David Herndon type pick, he seems to be in the same mold. Durable build and had some pretty nice results in relief until 2012. Obviously it will depend on need and who else is available, but if anyone has room for competition for spots in their pen, he’s an option.

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      2. Valle celebrates by going 4-4 with 2 2B last night in Mexico. OPS up to .801. Not that the Mexican league is any good (like the Venezuelan league), but Valle is demonstrating a better BB/K ratio. Maybe he is progressing and just had an off year last year. Too young to give up on IMO as he does have some upside, especially compared to some other 40-man names being thrown around like Buchanan. I could see Valle having a career as a MLB backup catcher with average defense that hits an occasional homer. Still 2 years younger than Rupp.

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      3. Valle celebrates by going 4-4 with 2 2B last night in Mexico. OPS up to .801. Not that the Mexican league is any good (like the Venezuelan league), but Valle is demonstrating a better BB/K ratio. Maybe he is progressing and just had an off year last year. Too young to give up on IMO as he does have some upside, especially compared to some other 40-man names being thrown around like Buchanan. I could see Valle having a career as a MLB backup catcher with average defense that hits an occasional homer. Still 2 years younger than Rupp.

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        1. Accidental double post. One other thing on Valle. He had a .236 BABIP last year. .236!. Could last season have merely been bad luck? Ideally you would want to see more improvement repeating a level, but if he had a .300 BABIP (which is still a little low for the minors) he hits close to .250 with a 700+ OPS. I am not at all convinced that Rupp is better. Neither may be any good which means Joseph also has value. It might take all 3 of them to give us one major league catcher.

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  3. if he is left unprotected and then loss in the rule 5…….it will further support the arguement of another blunder trade by RAJ

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    1. If it is meant Seth Rosin, many would say all ready another blunder trade. Because for Pence you got an uneventful half season from Nate Schierholtz,before the non-tendering thereof ,, Rosin, and the Catcher Joseph, who they did not know would have further concussion problems, but might have known from a past history of concussions which are a symptom of future concussions, or, at least, increasing of the likelihood of future concussions.

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      1. Many people would be wrong. And I can’t believe I am actually defending Amaro.

        Why can’t people realize that getting significant value in exchange for a veteran ho doesn’t have a substantial period of team control at a team friendly price is the rare exception, not the rule? Especially for a guy like Pence who is nothing special (of course this highlights the blunder of the original deal. You would think the last trade deadline would have finally gotten this lesson through people’s heads.

        Moreover, those rare exceptions have little to do with the skill of the GM trading the veteran. They tend to represent:

        (1) Blunders by the GM on the other end of the trade, and/or
        (2) Cases where a prospect ends up being better than expected. Kind of like a lottery ticket; most don’t pan out.

        And such trades have become even more rare over time, based upon changes in the rules and in front office understanding of the relative value of prospects.

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        1. Even I have to concede this is an area where he has been really bad. Not sure who is advising him on these deals but it must be someone that is scouting the west coast.

          Every trade we’ve made with players coming back has been out west-Gillies, Aumont, Ramirez. Joseph/Rosin, Lindblum/Martin, Rasmussen and any I’m missing?

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        2. I have a feeling that Pence will be remembered as the player involved in two of RAJ’s worst trades. Not a great distinction.

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        1. Right , anyone in the organization by yesterday or before, and not added to the 40 man roster by the midnight EST deadline last night , and still around by the Rule 5 draft will be subject to selection in the Rule 5 draft.

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            1. Can’t be. Really, if you include a guy as a significant part of a trade and then leave him off the 40-man, then you’ve pretty much blown up the trade as the other team now has visions of getting the guy for free or coming back at you and saying ‘well, I see you’ve decided he isn’t any good, we need an additional player’.

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            2. good point just can’t get my head around why they would leave him off behind Gillies and Collier. Valle I can understand because he is a catcher.

              Rosin reminds me of Pelfrey. I’d be surprised if he didn’t get picked up.

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  4. Go back in time and see what an offer of 5yrs/85Million to Werth would mean today. That is what he wanted before he fired his agent and hired Boras. No need to make that terrible Pence trade or throw money away on the slop that has come through here in the past 2 years, with 3 very nice pieces, conservatively, added to the farm system. There was no question that Werth was, and is, a very good player, offensively and defensively, but he was low-balled to such a degree that he fired his agent. There never would have been a Washington mega-offer.

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    1. Jayson Werth results have been a mixed bag as he had a horrible 2011 (average wise-20 hr), good 2012(good average but not great power) and a great overall 2013. You are correct in that he would have saved alot of problems if he stayed with the Phillies. I am not sure that offer of 85 million over 5 years would have kept him here as he stated himself in 2010 that he was looking for the biggest payday out there.

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    2. Werth is an excellent ball player the epitome of SABR and I’ll go so far as to say they might have one that WS in 09 if they still had him but you can’t apply revisionist history that’s cowardly.

      That team still lead the majors in wins with 102. If budget dictated they couldn’t have both then Lee was the correct sign.

      If you want to argue they should have went over budget and got them both I’m in agreement.

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      1. What puzzles me about Amaro…in Dec 08 he only gives Werth a two-year contract ilo of the third year vesting option…which at the time may have made a difference down the road with needs and a subsequent trade. Amaro seems to give most players that extra year. But who knows, maybe Werth rejected the third year.

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  6. Regardless of how Rosin was acquired it seems illogical to me to not protect him. We know what he did out of the pen and was good enough this year to be a AA all star as a starter. Why would you risk losing him now ?

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    1. His year was only OK for a 24-year-old in AA. He looks like a middle reliever to me at most and that is something that is very replaceable. I think the Phillies are balancing the risk of losing him (maybe a 10%-20% risk) with the bonus of getting another option year out of him as he might end up being one of those guys that are AAA injury replacements.. Rasmussen has better stuff and is left handed.

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      1. The more I think about it, the more I think I may be guilty of overvaluing a third year college guy’s Hi-A K rate a bit. Like if Austin Wright had that K Rate at CLR in 2013, I wouldn’t think all that much of it except maybe he’s useful and let’s see what he does his fourth year. Rosin didn’t have a great fourth year.

        I don’t think I am overvaluing what we were told about Rosin – that many clubs were looking at him as a useful piece out of SF last summer around the trade deadline. Pro scouting interest probably didn’t tank over a mediocre year as a starter in the Phils org. Whether that makes him any more likely to be picked in the Rule 5 is hard to judge.

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        1. I think teams are looking at ceiling or the ability to fill a bench role with rule 5 picks. Rosin falls short on both counts as his ceiling is middling and teams would want to see if his stuff ticks up in a relief role again. On the Phillies end he is nice depth, but really pretty replaceable with AAAA types if they need one. His stuff is not as good as Luis Garcia for instance.

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          3. I agree with this theme, teams are only willing to take a rule 5 guy if there’s legit upside. I believe Rosin has a chance to be a major league pitcher but its most likely going to be as a middle reliever. I think there’s a greater chance of losing a guy like Collier or Hewitt to a bad team because of their skill set and possible upside.

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            1. I can see a team picking Hewitt and using him to PH against LHP and be a 5th OF. I really can’t see Collier being taken, he had an awful 2013 to cap a pretty bad minor league career, which was spiced only by his 2012 AFL and hot months at the end of 2012 and 2013. He is not ready to play in the bigs and his body of work in the minors just is not plus. There are a lot of athletic OF with his sort of ‘potential’ in the minors. Almost every team has their own Collier, James, Gillies, Altherr. Altherr is a couple strides ahead of the other 3 in prospect status, but really nothing every organization in baseball can’t boast of having.

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          4. I think you contradicted yourself. Rosin doesn’t fall short of the potential bench role. Yes, a team will want to see him in a relief role, but paying $25K to find that out during ST is basically free in an off-season in which grade-C- players are pulling down $8 mill/year for multiple years. It is way cheaper to draft a couple Rosins and pick the one you want.

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            1. I see Rosin as almost certain to be drafted. He basically is major league ready. Whether the drafting team will keep him is another story, but it is easy to draft and keep a middle-relief guy from the upper minors, compared to drafting a position player or starting pitcher. Teams need so many relievers in the course of a season and Rosin is no different than the sort of guy that any team is forced to bring up from its farm.

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            2. He has not been used in relief in a year – that is all the bench role part was talking about. I disagree strongly that he is major league ready. A 4+ ERA in AA from a 24-year-old really suggests more that he might not be major league quality. If he was coming off a good year in AAA he would be closer to major league ready. I think you are far overrating his skills also. Most teams have 3 or 4 players like Rosin in the upper minors and you can find them as castoffs too. He simply is not that valuable. If he had better stuff he would have a higher projection, but he does not.

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  7. Hunter Pence links to the Phillies seem to not be going well. Phillies wanted to improve an already great team but so many other options in retrospect would have been better, including doing nothing.

    Pence is still a good player and of course got his World Series ring elsewhere but certainly seemed to wear out in Philly quickly.
    Besides the ring for Pence, Cosart looks good, Singleton still shows promise but at 1B, Santana is still a power hitter who K’s a ton, and Zeid actually did become a MLB middle reliever.
    Then Schierholtz gets hurt and is redundant to Nix so he becomes valuable elsewhere. Joseph gets concussed again and I think has little chance for a career at C and now Rosin will become a quality Rule5 guy for a playoff team this year.

    I really did not mind the trades for “Aces” and the Werth deal with Washington was just too high to match, but the Pence deals are all turning out badly. I was even as upset that Bourn was traded for so much less but Phillies had to have and [still need] RH power.

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  8. Also, Pence pressed too hard because Howard was injured as was Utley. Was arb eligible and going to get 14-15 Million. I would still have preferred him to DYoung but they are operating under a self-imposed Salary cap. His numbers last year would have looked very good in right field. There is a real incompetence at evaluating talent. And a real poor ability to put a team together

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  9. And, I don’t really mind that they trade for him in 2011 as they were going for a Championship. But, they also needed a replacement for Polanco who never recovered from May injuries. They did not do enough. There were players available that would have been better options than a double hernia afflicted Polanco. Going for a championship is laudable but the past 2 years have been 1 bad decision after the other

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