Box Score Recap – 8/29/2013

Box Score Recap

The Lehigh Valley game quickly got out of hand when Mike MacDougal came on to pitch the 8th. It took Josh Fields getting the last out to get out of that inning. Lehigh Valley’s playoff hopes are all but dead. Things also got out of hand in Hagerstown, as Lakewood’s Josh Ludy had to get the last out there. Took him five batters to do so. Maikel Franco went deep for Reading – his 31st of the year between 2 levels. Clearwater was shut out again – that makes three in a row. A multi-homer game for Zach Green – one of them just happened to come in June when they started that game – he took over sole possession of the league lead with 12 home runs on the season, while his K rate remains right around 29%.

And GCL closed out the year at .500, after getting blanked on the last day. Tyler Viza had a nice season – 32IP/5R/21H/10BB/20K/1HR. Though you’d like to see him strike more men out, the walk rate is good and you can’t argue with the WHIP. One to watch, likely at WIL next year.

A couple notes – Jeff Schuler of The Morning Call reported that Adam Morgan left last night after a mound visit from manager and trainer, as a precaution due to tightness in his shoulder. Does not sound good, but we shall see. Schuler also mentioned that Cameron Rupp’s glove-hand thumb injury would have held him out of last night’s game, though he was already scheduled for the day off. Does not sound serious.

Here’s the affiliate Scoreboard from MiLB.

http://www.milb.com/scoreboard/index.jsp?sid=milb&org=143&ymd=20130829

8-29-13 boxscores

103 thoughts on “Box Score Recap – 8/29/2013”

  1. Coming into the year I was teetering between Franco being a 20-25 HR guy and a 25-30… after the year he’s had, combined, I’m now teetering between 30 and 35.

    Nothing shocking there, but there’s a lot to be excited about. 30-35 HR’s a 10% K rate … looking like a potential star when the only question is his last half year BB%, that really is a good sign.

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    1. ABS is the best 3b prospect in baseball. Other guys rank ahead of him because of draft status or big signing bonus. People lie #’s dont

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      2. Okay, not going to get into the substance of this, people already think I am some kind of Franco hater, but the last sentence – you see that kind of attitude all the time around here, but seldom stated so explicitly.

        It is, of course, not only untrue, but almost the opposite of the truth. Kind of like saying the earth is flat or the sky is orange.

        I would go so far as to say that the FIRST thing that someone needs to know if they aspire to actually being knowledgeable about the game of baseball is this:

        Stats lie all of the time.

        Not just baseball, of course. You can extend that basic truth to many areas of life.

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        1. And you know what? On the substance, you can indeed argue he is the best third base prospect in baseball, EVEN IF you have what I would consider a realistic appreciation of him as a prospect. So this isn’t about Franco.

          But more on the subject of “stats don’t lie.” What I find hilarious about this debate, is that a certain segment of the readership here seems to believe that:

          “Stats don’t lie (except BB rates).”

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          1. I don’t think his BB% are lying… i think you missed a post I made a day or two ago, but his BB% in his last 88 AB’s has been 7.9% (as I calculated at the time but since he didn’t walk in his last two games I presume that’s gone down a little bit). That increase in BB% coincides with his bat cooling off. If his overly-aggressive tone was a product of a hot bat, and he has since returned to his A+ BB rates as it seems he is, then maybe this was much to-do about nothing?

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            1. Wasn’t really talking about you supra.* And really did not want to get dragged back into the Franco debate, I was making a larger point.

              There’s two strains in this debate. One is the argument that you and others have made that we can expect him to return to his historical rate. In essence, we can expect him to return to his old approach. That’s an argument that I have some sympathy for, even if I have more doubts than you or others making that argument have.

              The other strain really thinks they don’t matter at all. That was typified by an exchange I had in yesterday’s thread, where I was responding to a post that stated that Franco could be a productive major league player even with a sub 4% BB rate. And it was that line of argument that I was responding to. That, and Steven’s insistence that, in making comps to other players who had very good seasons in the Eastern League at a young age, you could simply ignore BB rates entirely.

              *minor point, though. This may be a calculation issue in part, though partly a function of no BBs in the past 3 games, but I get a 5.9% since 8/7, which is the obvious break point. Not a huge deal, still somewhat reassuring, but not 7.9%

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          2. We understand your position. Please stop stating it over and over again in incredibly long-winded posts. It is getting to the point that no one can even mention the name Franco without getting your broken-record two cents.

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            1. Franco is in the running for the best 3B in all of baseball, but it isn’t clear cut by any means. There is no Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, or even Bryce Harper among the top 3B prospects. The 3 most important hitting statistics from my perspective are BB%/K%/ISO… I look at these ALL THE TIME when evaluating prospects. Not that the others aren’t important, but if you had to pick 3, these are the 3 I’d pick. The next three that I look at are Average, BABIP and LD%, partly the old school part of me I guess.

              Based on these numbers alone, for the whole year, across both levels, here is what I see (I’m ballparking these numbers becuase I don’t have time to actually be Mr. Excellllll Spreadshetzzzzz)

              BB% K% ISO
              Cecchini: 16.7 15.5 .148
              Sano: 12.7 27.1 .320
              Franco: 5.2 11.5 .250

              I’m only picking these three because they’re all about the same age, all started at A+ and moved up to AA half way through the year. This makes for an excellent comparison.

              So, what conclusions can we draw about Franco?

              1. He is likely to hit for better average then either Cecchini and Sano.
              2. The spread between his Average and OBP is likely to be small (think 50 points tops)
              3. Sano is the best power prospect of the group, but Franco is no slouch.

              So, what have I learned based on my 3 self subscribed top stats?

              Sano has a chance to flame out because he may not make enough contact at the major league level for his power to show through. He is the most likely of the group to put up a 900 OPS based on a respectible OBP (which partially makes up for his high K rate) and superior power (leads to a high slugging %)

              Cecchini may always be a light hitting 3B and likely has zero shot at the HOF because of it, but has a very good chance at being a top of the order bat and posting a respectful OPS based on what is likely to be his his extraordinary OBP at the major league level, even if he only hits .250 I’d expect his OBP to be .350+

              Franco is the most likely of the group to have a .300 average, doesn’t have the power that Sano has (and never will) but isn’t light hitting by any means. His biggest risk is his walk rate, if it fails to walk at the MLB level he will stop seeing pitches that are easy to hit at the MLB level.

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            3. I think this post is partly an example of the misuse of statistics. You present stats for K%, BB%, iso and conclude from that Franco will have a better batting average in the bigs than Sano. Since Sano has better stats, among those you list, except for K%, you obviously are assuming a very, very, very, almost 100%, correlation between K% and BA. That is an extreme stretch, to say the least. I think that you are so sure of that conclusion based on sneaking a peak at the AA batting averages of these two. But… Sano had the better FSL BA and their career BA are identical.

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            4. Essentially nobody hits .300 in the majors with a K-rate over 20%. I would be very surprised if Franco didn’t hit for higher average than Sano down the road.

              I believe I’ve said it before, but it is my opinion that when players are “too good” for their level, this often manifests in a high BABIP, which is not sustainable as they move up to higher levels.

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            5. I’m actually at least somewhat inclined to supra’s position here (see, not everything I say about Franco is negative). Time permitting, I may run a regression, but I have little doubt that, over a sufficient sample size, K rate explains most of the variance in BA between players. If Franco in the majors maintains a K rate 1/3 as high as Sano, he will have a higher major league BA. Sano arguably has a likely edge in the other determinants of BA (essentially HR% and BABIP), but not enough to out weigh such a huge difference in K%.

              There is obviously a significant question as to whether their major league K rates will diverge that much, and thus some uncertainty as to whether Franco will have a better major league BA.

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            6. I think you’re wrong to say that K% isn’t highly correlated to batting average, you cite Sano’s A+ average a reason to be critical without comparing his BABIP and LD%’s as mentioned by me above. You also ignore the years where he had a far more reasonable BABIP and put up averages of .258 and .292 respectively.

              Let me say it again just so we’re on the same page… Sano’s best case looks remarkably like a .265/.270 hitter with 40 HR’s, Ryan Howard with a good walk rate and a more premium position.

              Further, you act like that’s somehow a bad player. Hardly, that’s an exceptional player. Think a slash line of .268/.360/.550 for an OPS of .910.

              I project Franco to be something like .290/.350/.490 for an OPS of .840 as a best case, or with an OBP of .335 and an OPS of .825 for a more likely scenario. Also not a bad player, but it’s why Sano is a better prospect.

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            7. Are you mentally deficient? Did you even read the post? It wasn’t about Franco, it was about the “stats don’t lie” canard?

              But you know what? Just to p*** off you and like minded people, I vow to respond to EVERY SINGLE POST about Franco with a long winded argument. Maybe I’ll make a macro.

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            9. That is a remarkably offensive post, even for you. Not being able to express your opinion or engage in a reasoned debate with persons of differing view, without engaging in insults and ad hominem attacks, really is a sign of immaturity and very poor communication skills.

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            10. And the beating of a dead horse “arm bar swing”/”abs” comments aren’t getting old too?

              My position falls between the two, I’ve seen scouting reports and video breakdowns that explain while unorthodox, Franco doors not have an arm bar. However, let’s be realistic about him too, he is not without flaw and some people have blinders on when it regards Franco.

              Point being you cannot single out Last without also taking to task the daily “abs” commenters too as their act is stale and antagonizing.

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            11. ha…are you saying there is something inconsistent between, “I am not going to get into it again” and “these next 2,000 words will just restate my point.”

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            12. Did you read my comment Steven? Seriously, not trying to be nasty. That would have been an arguably valid criticism of yesterday’s posts by me (though even there I was certainly NOT simply repeating myself, there was new data and arguments) but it doesn’t apply to THIS post, which was (a) short, and (b) Explicitly NOT about Franco, but rather about the “stats don’t lie” argument.

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          4. Its true stats don’t lie, they always tell the truth, it just that it is easy to make them say whatever you want them to. 1 + 1 always equals 2 it just what does 2 mean and why are you using 1 + 1 that is at issue. In this case the stats ARE telling the truth, what they are saying is that Franco is having a great year. Where the discussion comes in is what is the predictive value of the numbers and nobody knows the answer to that question. Sure there are stats that have more predictive value, but even then there are always exceptions to the thinking. Nothing can be said about Franco’s future with any absolute no matter the numbers.

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        2. No, stats do not lie. Many people don’t understand stats, especially concepts like variance and statistical significance vs sample size. People can easily misinterpret stats or over-interpret stats, but statistics are a well grounded, deductively provable, testable, mathematical truth.

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            1. That can go both ways. By saying he won’t be a star because of his low walk% is just as much an over interpretation as look at how great his numbers are he is a star in making.

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            2. No, it can’t go both ways and I don’t think Larry said he won’t be a star. To paraphrase, he said, I believe, that if his walk rates do not rise above a certain level, it’s a virtual statistical certainty that he won’t be a star, but the jury’s still out on how high his walk rate will go, with an acknowledgement that it has moved in a positive direction. I don’t, for the life of me, see how he’s played with statistics in a misleading way.

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            3. Steven, even though that misses my point, I think we may actually be getting close to the point of real communication here.

              You can certainly argue that I am over interpreting the BB data. Side issue, I really am NOT trying to talk about Franco in this thread. I’m talking about the “stats don’t lie” argument. And, really, I’m not even talking about YOU. Despite IMO (a) overly privileging stats over scouting, and (b) again in my opinion making some interpretive mistakes in the Franco debate, you’re not really one of the people around here who don’t understand context, and the perils of predicting the future based on stats. But there are a lot of people around here who have a crudely reductive view of the use of stats, and they tend to justify those beliefs by stating “stats don’t lie.”

              I would sum up as follows – maybe I AM over interpreting the BB data. But I’m not the guy saying that stats don’t lie.

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            4. And, to pick up on Catch’s point, the very narrow point that I made about the fact that he will not be successful on the major league level if, on the major league level, he has a sub 4% BB rate, is really incredibly well grounded in the evidence and pretty much unassailable. If you want to criticize my use of the numbers, argue that I am overly hung up on the AA rate, and that he is likely to have a better rate in the majors. Not agreeing with that criticism, of course (aside from the fact that he PROBABLY will have a better major league BB rate, our disagreement is really over whether there is even a risk that he won’t), but at least there we’re int he realm of reasonable minds may differ.

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            6. I would agree with you about it really being more about the use and interpretation of statistical analysis in general vs. just the specific example of Franco. He happens to be a relevant topic so to use him as an example to discuss the topic seems appropriate. My basic point, and maybe it is semantics and I am playing devils advocate, is that if one uses stats to make a predictive positive or negative statement of a prospects future then the counter argument to disprove ones opposing point of view while interpreting a different sample set should not be a statistical comparison, but really more of an empirical argument. I.e it should not be “my stat is better then your stat” argument (even though some stats certainly are more relevant, the actual level of correlation can be debated, because of so many different variable. Even with an appropriate regression analysis there will still be a residual and thus utilized in terms of a confidence level), Because as we both agree one can always have “fun with numbers” absolute statements about the future value of a prospect can never really be used in either direction. I also realize that the root of your argument really is not that Franco won’t be a star, just that hey lets take a step back and relax a minute, he is not a perfect prospect, (is there really such a thing?) to which I whole heatedly agree. Enthusiasm is the root of all fandom and people tend to get upset if one takes that away.

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            1. Sorry, obviously, everyone who has ever watched a dumb ass announcer dismiss baseball statistics during a telecast has heard that quote. The quote is neat the first time you hear it and has an air of truth to it, but it’s so overplayed its ridiculous. The limitation (or “lie” if you will) is not in the statistics themselves but in understanding what they mean and how to use them.

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            2. I just wrote because I thought it related to what they were talking about. The quotes is a phrase describing how you can use and bend numbers to support a weak argument(not that I think that what is going on here). And for as much baseball as I watch I have never heard that quote from an announcer.

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  2. I know it’s probably unpopular to say this, but I think, even for a 20 year-old, it’s hard to translate hitting or pitching statistics at Reading and the EL to major league baseball. It’s just such a crazy favorable hitting environment. Now, obviously, his stats are very good, especially considering his age, but I’d counsel caution before we project them to major league levels. For hitters, Lehigh Valley is where the rubber hits the road. Let’s see how he does there before we say he is a 30-35 homer guy. I mean, he might be, but we need more evidence before we can feel comfortable that this is the case. Clearly, he has time/age on his side and looks to have 65 power and hit tools, which is a pretty rare combination.

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    1. I wouldn’t worry about him putting up these numbers at Reading. Its not like Citizens park is some albatross for hitters. Now that power has been established the coaching staff next year can work on selection at plate. If he figures that part out to tune of 8% BB ..watch out!

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    2. I would like to look at his spray chart for HR’s… that would give me a far better clue as to the legitimacy of his power.

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    3. I lightly disagree catch the better pitching tends to be in AA. AAA can frustrate really good hitting prospects because there isn’t much around you and rarely are you getting challenged with FB’s.

      Now that’s not to say these guys don’t polish some of their breaking ball and patience skills there. Most nights your seeing a AAAA guy without enough FB to be in the MLB so they are generally throwing more off speed stuff at you.

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      1. Yeah, that may or may not be true, but your point is really different from the issue I’m addressing. What I’m saying is that people see all kinds of guys put up big raw numbers at Reading, but I caution that hitting statistics can be notoriously inflated in the EL and at Reading in particular – this is due almost exclusively to park effects. Do we remember what luminaries such as Matt Rizzotti and Cody Overbeck did at Reading, let alone Darin Ruf? A perfect example this year is Jim Murphy – they are actually mentioning him now in articles in the Inquirer. They are out of their minds – he’s not a big league hitter. He’s not a prospect at all.

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          1. True – but you’ve missed my point too. I probably could have used better examples (if you’re looking for younger players, I offer Lou Marson and Jason Donald, but there are many others), but I only caution that Reading hitting statistics are inflated, as are statistics in the PCL and the California League. It doesn’t mean that the players aren’t good, just that you have to discount the statistics.

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            1. Marson and Donald did not have elite stats at 20 years old. Marson had ok stats, but no power at all. and Donald was a college player. I did the analysis a few posts ago. The list of players who are 20 YO and were a top 20 OPS in the Eastern League has an extremely high success rate.

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            2. NOT THE POINT!!!! It’s just astonishing how I can make a general point and discuss some example and then folks take the example out of context or use it to refute a more general point that I never made. Again, for like the fourth time, EL statistics are generally inflated and those at Reading are even more inflated. It means you have to discount those statistics when you look to project a player’s performance Those statistics are as inflated for Mikael Franco as they are for Lou Marson, or Jason Donald, or Matt Rizzotti, or Freddy Galvis, or Michael Taylor (how much of a better example do you want?) or going way back, guys like Dave Doster. Year after year after year, guys put up guady numbers at Reading and these statistics are inflated. They are not less inflated for Maikel Franco than they are for less prospects such as Lou Marson or Jason Donald (actually, they may be MORE inflated because Reading has such a pronounced power bias) or older prospects such as Tagg Bozied or Matt Rizzotti. That DOES NOT MEAN THAT MAIKEL FRANCO IS NOT AN EXCELLENT PROSPECT! It only means that we have to view his statistics with a healthy degree of skepticism until we see more at AAA.

              I essentially never write in all caps, but when I say the same thing very clearly four times and people keep misconstruing what I said or quibbling with irrelevant distinctions, it’s extremely annoying.

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            3. I really don’t understand why people get so worked up about a counterpoint on a blog about minor league baseball players. Just chill bro.

              Actually, I think our counter arguments are exactly the point. No one looks at raw stats in isolation of age and blindly projects those numbers to the majors. And very few have ever said any of the guys you mentioned were elite players. There is a reason for that.

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            4. I’m sorry, but that response doesn’t make any sense and doesn’t rebut the essential point that statistics in that park are inflated for everyone. Maikel Franco too. And if I had time, I’m sure I could go back and find plenty of examples of other players, young and old, average and elite, whose stats were inflated by playing in the EL. But if you don’t understand park effect, there’s nothing more I can say. Maikel Franco is not immune to these effects. To the contrary, his statistics are padded by them, even though he is a very fine prospect.

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            6. Its a mute point. If a player is trending up thru multiple levels….the singular park (Reading) is in inconsequential. Its not as if his trajectory was flat until he arrived there. Plus if your assumption is correct…then the whole Reading team should be tearing it up offensively (facts is contrary to this).

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          2. exactly. if franco was 26, people wouldn’t be as high on him. the fact that he did this mostly at 20 years old is rare. think how much better he will be in 6 years.

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            1. I don’t think we’re talking past each other, I think you haven’t addressed my argument at all, but I do wish you a very safe and happy weekend. Have a good time!

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            2. The above poster said this “If a player is trending up thru multiple levels….the singular park (Reading) is in inconsequential. Its not as if his trajectory was flat until he arrived there. Plus if your assumption is correct…then the whole Reading team should be tearing it up offensively (facts is contrary to this).”

              As to your second point, it’s wrong. The fact that other guys at Reading are not doing well shows how horrible they are, not that there is no park effect. Most of those guys suck, no argument here. But it doesn’t mean that there’s no park effect or that there is a selective park effect only for good players and not for bad players – I can’t believe people are struggling with this concept.

              As for your first point, I think what you are saying is that Miakel Franco is a young, ascending player and, therefore, we need to take this into account when we look at him as a prospect. I completely agree. But that doesn’t mean his statistics are not inflated – they are. So. we still need to discount his stat.s a bit for park effect. In other words, if Franco is hitting .333/.359/.559, those stats are quite a bit higher than they would be in a more netural park. So, what we should be looking at is projections for a player who, at the same age and ability, more likely, would have a line like this .300/.330/.490. That’s all I’m saying. I don’t understand why this is so controversial.

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            3. hi BABIP is under .300. If anything he is bit unlucky at Reading. His numbers should actually be little higher considering he makes good contact.

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            4. According to Minorleaguecentral, Franco’s BABIP in Reading is .323, which is above his career BABIP.

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          1. No, because it’s just a park effect, it’s not a magic pill and, by the way, the EL is a hitter friendly league, so you’d see it less in that context. Again, this is pretty basic stuff.

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            1. I accept your point, catch,which I restate to say that all EL hitter numbers are high and moresothanmost Reading. I recognize that you did not bash Franco and ask only out of mild curiosity since you state that all EL parks are hitter friendly: are away vs home numbers available for Franco?

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            2. See above. Not a big home/away split for Franco. But EL seems to have better offensive stats than FSL. We’ve seen that with Hewitt this year, although to a small degree, with Rupp last season, with Asche, with Rupp. In general, it’s not a huge difference, although it’s 50 OPS points for some. The difference seems mainly in SLG rather than in OBP.

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      2. This comes perilously close to saying it’s unfair to get a guy out with breaking stuff. Major league pitchers will use whatever works to get you out. If FBs get guys out in AA and the off-speed stuff isn’t all that good, then the logical conclusion is that ‘as measured today’ the better hitters and the better pitchers are at AAA. They may not be prospects, because they have reached their ceiling and by and large that ceiling is below major league level, but the average level of current ability exceeds that at AA. There are certainly a lot more prospects at AA, but they are a lot less refined with more holes in their games. If you brought a decent AAA team down to the Eastern League, they would exploit those holes.

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        1. I understand both of your points. I think the answer to this is that the competition is better in AAA (performance-wise, there’s no question that, as a group, AAA pitchers are harder to hit – it follows naturally from the proposition that only the best AA pitchers get promoted to AAA, they almost have to be better). Nonetheless, I don’t think it’s inconsistent to say that the better arms or prospects are sometimes in AA – this is a prospect league and so there may be more players with greater potential, still AAA is harder than AA – I don’t see how you could credibly argue to the contrary.

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          1. Could we say the competition is better because AAA contains more experience, more maturation not necessarily more talent. Anyway I get what you are saying.

            Maybe what I am saying is that if you handle AA as a 20 y/o like Franco has there isn’t much doubt you can handle MLB pitching. It comes down to what degree you handle it and whether or not you can adjust to the advance scouting they do on you.

            I guess at the end of the day I would be very surprised if Franco is not an above average MLB player.

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            1. “Could we say the competition is better because AAA contains more experience, more maturation not necessarily more talent.” Yes, precisely.

              “Maybe what I am saying is that if you handle AA as a 20 y/o like Franco has there isn’t much doubt you can handle MLB pitching.” Not necessarily. I’d say that if you handle it as a 20 year-old (as opposed to a 22 or 24 year-old) odds of succeeding in the majors are greatly enhanced.

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  5. Larry,You’re actually calling someone mentally deficient? Listen,I appreciate your imput on this site,but that doesn’t mean that other people are not allowed to state theirs!!

    I guess,we can all quit contributing,and just rely on yours?

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      2. With a very few rare exceptions (and this is not one of them), when I get reactive it is because of the constant, massive abuse that I get on this site. This was the case here. You can argue it is an overreaction, but you can’t deny that I take more abuse around here than anyone else. And more than I dish out.

        On the very rare occasions when I lash out without being attacked first, I apologize.

        I don’t mind disagreement. I object to abuse.

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        1. You weren’t abused at all here, unless you define abuse as having the temerity to hold an opinion contrary to your own, or to comment that you’ve repeated the same thing at great length repeatedly. That’s not abuse. Name calling as you are so prone to do is abuse.

          Your argument can be summed up by “Franco’s walk rate in about half a season at Reading is lower than any star I have found, so therefore Franco cannot be a star.” This doesn’t follow. First, as many have told you, Franco’s walk rate at Reading is low for Franco, compared to the rest of his career. So, SSS plus he was on an incredible hot streak at the time. You’ve obsessed on one stat to the exclusion of all else. You may be right, you may be wrong. Time will tell. Just as you are allowed to express opinions, based upon your assumption that BB rate is THE gate-keeper stat, which nobody can succeed without checking the BB% box, other people are free to point to a correlation between other stats and success, especially for a guy who is as young for AA as Franco is.

          There really is no point in debating you, because you seem incapable of entertaining the notion that anybody else’s opinion could possibly be as valid as your own, or even a little bit valid, come to that. So, yes, for some reason you do equate disagreement with your opinion and expressed displeasure of your extremely belligerent style of argumentation as abuse of yourself. It is the classic case of the abuser being unable to see his own behavior and casting all of his bullying as self-defense against his persecutors. I see poster after poster attempt to engage you in honest debate, not abusing you at all, and then the whole thing falls apart, because you become abusive. Then you are called on that and your response it always the same. You were abused. You were just defending yourself. Although, just about every poster on this forum can tell you that this particularly rationalization is false.

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          2. When you call other posters names and insult their intelligence, it is pretty much the duty of others, as good human beings, to not let it slide, and I don’t intend to let it slide. As you may have noticed, I’ve given up trying to debate you.

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        2. If anything this site goes out of its way to tolerate you. I can’t even believe your playing victim card.

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    2. He was out of line for saying that, but the post he was responding to was not an intelligent one. It was a direct attack on him for something he didn’t even do (at least not this time).

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        1. I’m not excusing him. I’m just not turning a blind eye to the fact that he was essentially baited and directly targeted. And, at the very least, I’ve seen Larry apologize for his outbursts. Something I have NOT seen from the vast majority of those people who have antagonized him.

          I don’t even particularly like Larry. But he is not a bad person. And he is informative in most of what he says. But there a great many people on here who can’t get past their own biases. It is unfair to call out Larry without also calling out those targeting him.

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          1. At least most of those whom you claim target him do not engage in name-calling and insults. Even Larry’s apologies are half-hearted and half-attack. The “I regret I said that, but your ignorance forced me to do that” sort of apology.

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  6. .343 avg for Zach Green!
    I think hes my #7 prospect in org going into next year.
    Lock Top 10 in my opinion.
    Hes no Franco though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    1. I believe that was makeup game from earlier in season when he was actually sporting that average. He is hitting .253 now.

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  7. Someone the other week was asking about Keivi Rojas, but I can’t remember who so I’ll just post what I’ve seen here.

    He looks like he’s worn out, used quite a bit lately here at the end of the year. His fastball last night was 93-94 according to Nelson Prada and he’s starting to get better control of his curveball. The fatball has a little run to it. The curveball’s got some right spin and is almost slider-like but I’m still calling it a curveball. He can throw it for strikes or bounce it if he wants. He’s clearly a bullpen guy but I don’t think his success was a fluke. And I wouldn’t put too much stock in his last few outings over the first dozen or so.

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    1. That was me. Thanks Mitch. Seems like he has some pretty good stuff from what you say. Still wondering why they’ve decided not to challenge him more given that.

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      1. They said his command of the curveball has come in the past couple weeks, so that’s probably a big reason why. If you look at most of his outings at the start of the season they came in mop-up situations. Only in the last couple weeks has he seen some high leverage situations.

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  8. Some of the posters are being absolutely absurd with their responses to catch and Larry today. It boggles the mind that Franco is being such a divisive force. I have not seen, not even once, a person comment that they think Franco is anything less than a great prospect. The only differences in opinion have been about his floor, ceiling, and likelihood of reaching either. To me, it seems that most of the derogatory remarks come from extreme Franco boosters and are slung at those (Larry, for example) who are excited about Franco but hold a bit of skepticism for his current (NOT FUTURE, CURRENT) level of readiness for the major league level.

    To wit, scouts have brought up Franco’s unorthodox swing (some labeling it as an arm-bar, some not), and the aforementioned boosters have not only discounted such testimonials, but outright mocked them. No one, not a single person, has said that it is impossible to overcome Franco’s flaws. They have just said that he has flaws. Are those of you denying his swing will be a problem also claiming that it is not unorthodox? Because it is. If you deny it, then you are just being intellectually dishonest. That is a flaw. Will it work out? It very well might. But it is not an ideal swing for the average player. Maybe it is ideal for Franco, and maybe it works for him and he becomes a HOF player. But the DECADES of information we have about baseball indicates that it is an extremely small chance that one can be successful with such an unorthodox swing. The same goes for his walk rate. It is highly unlikely that a player will succeed with such a low walk rate. Does it make it impossible? No. Even if it never happened before, there can be a first for everything. But that does not make it within the realm of reasonable probability.

    Let me just break it down like this; there are no flawless prospects. Especially not in the Phillies system. Would you Franco fans (and I use this term knowing full well we are ALL Franco fans on this site) argue that he is without flaw? Because if so, I have nothing more to say to someone who would so blind themselves to facts. And if not, are you suggesting that others are in the wrong to hedge our bets with one prospect in a sport where the flame-out rate for prospects is above 90%?

    No one blames you for getting excited about a prospect. We all do, that is why we visit this site. But mocking, ridiculing, and patronizing a person for not ignoring facts? That is absurd. And frankly, I’m disappointed there is anyone here that would so vehemently argue against trying to get a full picture, which the “negative” people are extremely vital for. There is no full picture without seeing the flaws of a player. And if you aren’t interested in getting all of the information available on a player, well, you simply aren’t that much of a fan after all.

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    1. 90% of the mocking, ridiculing, patronizing, and name-calling on this site are done by Larry. Most of the posters I read politely and respectfully disagree with him, as they argue forcefully against his position. Of course, less positive views are good to have. I see the flaws in Franco, I know the low BB-rate is a red flag, but I also see a ton of positives.

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      1. ‘……..low BB-rate is a red flag.’- to clarify only his first 150 approx PAs of AA, the last approx 115 the BB rate has increased to a more respectable level. But that is only a SSS.

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        1. Really not all that much higher. He has 6 BB in his last 121, so he is still not quite up to 5% rate. That’s still low. Not as bad as the 3% rate in the first almost half of his AA AB, but still a red flag. Everything has to be judged together, however, you can’t pull out just one or two things, however positive or negative they might be, and assume that they are the important stats or scouting observations.

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      1. Or Asche talks from last year, and this is eerily similar to last year. You all need to calm the hell down and quit taking the counter points as attacks. Both sides are acting like children doing the same things which cause for escalation on both sides and ends up in name calling. All of you have really ruined the enjoyment of this remarkable season by Franco, which if i may add has backed up what pretty much all of you said about him after last year. So is it too much to ask to not have all of the Novel length posts dominating all of the daily box scores. So much time and effort is being wasted nit picking Franco when we have so many other players that you could have evaluated and enlighten all of us a little more with your points of view.

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    3. the fact that Larry is the ‘victim’ is absurd. He seems to be the only one who can’t control his emotions and resorts to childish tactics such as name calling. And I don’t think he is young guy…that is really sad part about it.

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  9. catch22….this will make you happy.
    Phillies changing minor league pitching coordinator.
    Gorman Heimueller, the organization’s minor-league pitching coordinator, will not have his contract renewed next year. “We need to get better across the board,” Amaro said. “If you’re not getting better, you’re getting worse. I just think we can get better. I’m not specifically talking about pitching, I’m talking about throughout the entire organization.”

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      1. Quite close to across the board failure among our top pitching prospects.
        Biddle — very ineffective in a number of games, wild, maybe hurt
        Morgan — hurt, back, probably reinjured
        Giles — hurt, back
        Watson — hurt
        Gueller — hugely disappointing
        Martin — not as good as last season
        Pettibone — pitched better in the bigs, now hurt
        Cloyd — not as good as last season

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    2. anonymous did he really say if your not getting better your getting worse, lmao What amazes me, is how many people on here have guestion the pitching instruction in the minors and it took them two years or more to see, what people on here have been saying for at least the last two season,. especially the guys who go to games, and see live minor league ball, which i wish i could do,

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