Box Score Recap – 8/3/2013

Box Score Recap

Larry Greene bombing away from the 2-hole. Prototypical 2-hole hitter, there. Lots of contact and good speed. Nice line from Tyler Cloyd – he’s taking care of business his last three starts – 7 IP and 1 R each time out, with a total of 14h, 3bb and 16k in those 21 innings. Herlis Rodriguez is on fire in his second turn through the GCL, but there are so many fringy/full-on prospect-type OF in WIL also, it’s hard to see where he fits up there. Not hard to se why they let go of Jan Olmo earlier this summer, I suppose. There was really nowhere to play him.

And as always, it’s fun to see a position player on the hill – well done Brock Stassi, working a scoreless inning with no hits and one walk.

Here’s the affiliate Scoreboard from MiLB.

http://www.milb.com/scoreboard/index.jsp?sid=milb&org=143&ymd=20130803

8-3-13 boxscores

77 thoughts on “Box Score Recap – 8/3/2013”

      1. Yes, he probably is Buckley, but he has been on fire. Looks like he’s had great BABIP luck, but the K/9 is quite good and the BB/9 aren’t bad, and he’s only given up one long ball in almost 20 IP, so a very good start for Tyler.

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  2. Gillies slips back below the Mendoza line, while Collier parlays a 4 for 5 game into his first rise above Mendoza in quite some time.

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  3. I’d really like to see Altherr finish the year strong. So much early promise and now his OPS has dipped below .800. July was very rough for him, although he did somewhat lower his K rate.

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  4. To the misery of most fans, I saw Domingo Santana play last night vs. D’Arby Myers. Santana has put on a good 30 lbs in muscle, he is a monster but he has an awful swing his head pulls out, only one arm through the zone, front leg drops out. It’s ugly but he plays in a park that is only 315 down the lines and the fences are 5 ft high. Like a right handed Dom Brown (when Dom was 21). Worst trade ever.

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          1. Well I’m making a joke, but the SS issue is kind of ancillary to the joke.

            Not to be pedantic. 🙂

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  5. Amazing four prospect in one trade and two are already in majors, and two more will play, wonder if any teams has traded four prospects for one player and all four made the majors,

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    1. Not four players but Bartolo Colon for Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, Brandon Phillips is pretty egegious.

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      1. Thats a good one joe ty , but cosart is going to be a cliff lee, or better. singleton is a future star like sizemore, villar isnt phillips but close, and zeid is a good bullpen arm.

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        1. Seriously roccom?

          First of all, Villar’s who isn’t and won’t be in the same zip code as Phillips (borderline star versus likely bench guy or starter for a couple years on a non-contender), was a different trade.

          Cosart’s upside is lower than Lee,and he may still not reach that upside – I mean, bad enough to mention the two in the same sentence, but “or better” just adds a level of absurdity.

          Singleton might be a star, I would not say will be.

          Santana, who you don’t mention,, most likely won’t be a major league regular, though I agree that IF he can get the K rate down, he MIGHT be, and a good one, and that sure as heck will (figuratively) be sticking the knife int he wound..

          I was at the time the trade’s biggest critic, and it looks even worse in retrospect, but let’s not get carried away. It’s bad enough without exaggerating.

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      1. I was fine with it then, and I won’t be a hypocrite now and blast it in hindsight. Prospects get traded all of he time. That is part of their value. For some reason, some think the Phillies are the only team that trades prospects at the trade deadline, during pennant races.

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        1. I don’t have an issue with trading prospects, but it all boils down to getting value. I always felt like the value paid in terms of prospect worth as of July 2011 was significantly overpaying for the worth of Hunter Pence. That those prospects were assets that could have used to acquire something of more significance and worth than what they used to get.

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        2. Didn’t like it then and don’t like it now. As RAJ found out at the deadline, prospects of that quality don’t get traded all the time. At the time, I thought this an overpay, but mainly thought the Pence trade to be totally unnecessary, the Phillies were already on route to winning the NL East and being about a 100 win. The playoffs are a crapshoot. Just didn’t think we needed Pence. I admit that I didn’t expect the guy to be such a bust in the playoffs. Thought we’d do much better without him than it turned out we did with him. Then he stank in 2012, so just an all around awful trade. He’s better again this season, but 2012 was a bad year for him. I’ll also admit I didn’t expect that.

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          1. actualkly, 2012 was a pretty good year for pence; he really picked it up once he was traded to the giants – RBI-wise, at least.

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            1. RBI are more a team stat than an individual stat. Pence had a crummy .671 OPS after being traded to SF. HIs OPS in Philly that year was .783. Not what you trade a lot of prospects to get out of a corner OF. I see that with a horrible July, Pence’s OPS has slipped below .800 for this season.

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          2. That many thought the Pence trade was an overpay, and can now say “I told you so”, isn’t impressive. Every trade the Phillies has done since 2008, involving prospects, gets dubbed as an “overpay”.
            1. Joe Blanton for the immortal Adrian Cardenas and Josh Outman, caused MORE outrage than the Pence deal, especially from the created of this blog.
            2. Roy Halladay for Michael Taylor, Travis D’arnaud and Drabek. Guys were so mad they traded Taylor, they vowed to never post on PP again.
            3. Cliff Lee for Carrasco, Marson, Donald, and Knapp. Though the reaction was more split than other trades, there are guys that still post here regularly, that felt the Phillies were going to regret the day they gave up Jason Donald and Lou Marson for Cliff Lee.
            4. Michael Young for Lisaverto Bonilla. Bonilla wasn’t even considered a top 15 prospect by the board, and people were still outraged that they spent him on Young.

            Guys here have selective memory. They remember they were against the Pence trade, but forget they were also against the other trades that went in the teams favor.

            I wonder how many posters here care to remember last year they wanted to trade Domonic Brown, Cody Asche +, to the Padres for Chase Headley.

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            1. Like you, VOR, I’m not going to change my opinion of a trade in hindsight. I was very against the Blanton trade, and I still do think it was an overpay. It worked out in the end for the Phils, but of course, we don’t have that knowledge when trades first happen.

              I can’t speak for everyone on this blog, but I think I, and most, were supportive of the Halladay and Lee trades because we realized we were getting game changing talent back. That was not so with the Blanton and Pence trades. Or especially the MYoung trade. Obviously every trade will have dissenters, but I do not think that every trade was greeted with the same disdain as the Pence trade. In fact, reading through the thread on the Lee trade, it’s overwhelmingly positive. Not sure where you’re getting “split” from.

              Further speaking about the Halladay trade, there were a lot of people that were upset, myself included, that we were in essence trading Lee + top prospects for Halladay. It wasn’t just about losing Taylor and Drabek.

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            2. I like your posts Handzus, so I don’t want to offend you, but comment about the Blanton trade is an indication of what I was talking about. You still think it was an overpay? All I can say about that: At least you are honest. How is it an overpay (in hind site) when you trade for Major League average pitcher, under team control for two years, and give up two minor leaguers who’ve done nothing in the major leagues 5 years later. It was a clear win, and it isn’t even debatable.

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            3. I think Handzus is saying that he thinks the Blanton trade was an overpay based on what we knew at the time, not based on hindsight.

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            4. Regardless. I don’t know what guys think you are supposed to give up, for proven major league players under team control. Any time any team trades one of these type players, they get the other teams’ #1 or #2 prospect. Adrian Cardenas was our #2 prospect, playing 2nd base (with Utley in his prime) and he was still in Clearwater.
              What was Oakland supposed to get, for a team controlled pitcher with a career 105 ERA+?

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            5. I opposed the Michael Young trade at the time, because I saw him as a washed-up hitter who could no longer play 3B. He’s done better than I expected, but is not a plus player.

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            6. I was for all of those (the trades that happened, not Headley) except for Young, and I was against Young not because it was an overpay but because I didn’t think Young made the team any better. I may have been wrong,on Young, though not by much, but that’s a side issue. A flattering thread a few days ago said some good things about my predictive powers; it exaggerated, I make mistakes. But I’m batting close to a 1.000 on trades, in terms of my initial reaction being justified by future events.

              The two differences with the Pence trade were one, the talent disparity was greater, and two, we didn’t need Pence.

              It’s true that teams make those trades, but increasingly it is the bad front offices that make those trades. it’s one thing to give up good prospects for a difference maker like Halladay, or decent prospects for a difference maker like Lee, or marginal prospects for a someone like Blanton. If they paid a similar price for Pence that they paid for Blanton, I would have been fine with the deal.

              The best front offices these days either don’t make those trades at all, or they make them for young, cost controlled stars. If you hold the team to the standard of the Royals, they’ll be a losing franchise for the next generation.

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            7. I think the one key thing you are all in violent agreement about is that RAJ always gives up more than he has to, and never gets as much as he should, in all trades. The only one I can think of where he did better than expected at the time was the Thome trade last year. Otherwise, he must just be a horrible negotiator.

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            10. No, actually, I am not in agreement about that. Not at all. As much as I am a critic of Amaro, I don’t think he has a particular problem with trades. The Pence deal, unfortunately, was a case where some of his other faults cane to the fore. Chiefly, I think, his problem with talent judgment of position players.

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            11. I think it’s not so much that he’s a lousy negotiators as it is the $ constraints he’s under. In the Pence trade, poor broke Houston had to pay all the rest of Pence’s 2011 salary in order to make that deal work. If Pence is simply dealt straight up with the Phillies assuming all the salary, then we don’t have to give up as many prospects. You saw that this year with the attempted Lee to Boston trade. Yes, Lee isn’t doing well and so he probably doesn’t help Boston all that much, but RAJ was insisting that Boston eat all the salary. That’s the main problem with Phillies teams. We are a rich, rich team, but we almost always handle the $ end of these deals as if we were proverty stricken.

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            12. LarryM (fire Amaro now). says:
              July 30, 2011 at 9:58 AM
              Yeah, he has a career high OPS this season. Gee, I always thought that was the WORST time to trade for a player, because your buying high. And Pence is a classic example of that.

              (1) His OPS (I prefer the much more accurate wRC+, but in this case it yields a similar result) is inflated by his .370 BABIP. That will regress to his career BABIP mark, meaning also regression to his his career OPS and wRC+ marks (117 in both cases), likely this year, certainly over the 2 1/2 years they control him. His BIP luck explains most of the reason why his wRC+ and OPS are higher than his career marks.
              (2) Brown had a fine July (in terms of hitting); his numbers were headed up. His wWC+ (and OPS) were going to finish higher than his current 103 (wRC+).
              (3) Defense is, using the analytical metrics, closer than you acknowledge. This year especially Pence grades out below average using those metrics. You want to talk about sample size and year to year variations? Fine. But then apply that to your analysis of hitting as well.

              That said, for this season Pence is a little better. I conceded that. But even assuming that current trends will continue – as above, unlikely in my view – projecting forward you get about 1 1/2 more wins from Pence (using WAR). I estimated one win, assuming some regression by Pence and some improvement by Brown.

              Going forward, it’s harder to estimate. Pence versus Ibanez is a bigger upgrade, but on the other hand the salary – over 10 million per season won’t be a big bargain, and maybe no bargain at all, for Pence – is salary that can’t be spent elsewhere.

              I liked those other trades you mentioned – all of them – because we got good value for what we gave up. This time we didn’t. We got mediocrity, and, for the first time in recent years, traded a special prospect in Singleton. The relevant comparison is the Blanton trade. Pence is a Blanton level player (Blanton at the time of the trade, that is). I liked that trade, but only because they didn’t give up much. If they gave up this much, I would have been screaming then just as I’m screaming now.

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            13. VOR go back and look at https://phuturephillies.com/2009/07/29/phillies-have-trade-done-for-cliff-lee/ and tell me that “a lot” of people thought that was an overpay or against it? Pretty much consensus is that Ruben stole Cliff Lee…which he did.

              This is “phuture phillies” especially 2 or 3 years ago the focus of this site was more for prospects than it is now. You used to get told to stop talking about “Major league players/Phillies” in prospect discussions on this site. So it’s no surprise that for some of those older trades you had more posters lamenting trading prospects which were the focus of this site more so in the past.

              The Cliff Lee “overpay” is something you seem to have invented in your mind to justify a position you want to take currently though.

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            14. The site added the weekly ‘General Discussion’ thread because posters wanted another forum to discuss for that purpose.

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            15. I’ll take your word for it. I’m not going to go back and read any specific thread about the Lee trade. I distinctly remember JohnNEphilly and NoWheels lamenting giving up Jason Donald for Cliff Lee, but maybe I attached it to everyone instead of to the minority.

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            16. There were posters in there who did not like the trade, but they were in a very tiny minority… but I think you’re always going to have that in trades. You could see the Phillies trade Kyle Kendrick to the Rangers tomorrow for Jurickson Profar and there would be someone who says “why give up a MLB proven starter just coming into his own for a prospect who hasn’t done anything in the majors yet?”

              Prospects are a mixed bag for some people. For some posters there’s a “grass is always greener” when it comes to trading *for* them and then over attachment when getting them. You brought up the Michael Young trade and that was definitely a valid point since that did have close to a consensus as overpay. People did overvalue Bonilla. Relief Pitchers who are prospects are just not that valuable (another reason why Aumont looking like a future reliever was nowhere near value for Cliff Lee as the best prospect in that trade).

              My main objection to Michael Young was not what the Phillies gave up, but that they even acquired him at all. He was a replacement level (possibly under replacement level) 3B. He was going to give you horrible defense (which has proven true) and be extremely unlikely to return to his early 30s level of offense. The offense he’s given you this year is very close to a mirror image of what he provided last year. The one difference being a slightly higher walk-rate which he said he tried to improve, but which has been sliding as the season progresses.

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      2. At the time it really did feel like one good right handed bat was needed to help balance the offense with the historic pitching the team had. I don’t think going all in was crazy at the time, but it definitely did not work out. I do wish we would of gone for Beltran instead of Pence.

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  7. Glass half-full.
    Every Phillies loss and every traded prospect’s success means a higher draft pick and another closer day till Ruben’s departure, respectively.

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      1. I understand basketball and baseball are different sports, and the 76ers and Phillies are at different places as organizations, but you look at the incredibly gutsy moves that Sam Hinkie is making and I just yearn for the Phillies to follow suit with a more progressive thinking General Manager, and Manager.

        I’m not proposing Amaro do the same exact things as Hinkie, because they are different situations, but it is clear that this problem with the Phils is snowballing in that Manuel cannot change “the ways” of his veterans and their approach to the game, and then Amaro compounding the problem by acquiring players with similar, or worse, approaches. (Hello Delmon “Golden Sombrero” Young, I’m talking to you.).

        I completely understand that not every GM makes perfect moves every time, but Amaro’s track record of failed transactions looking back on them is unmatched in baseball today. I have a friend who literally listed all trades and free agent signings by teams in the NL and roughly rated them from best to worst, and then compared the GM’s performance and it is clear that other than the Marlins, Amaro is far and away in last place in terms of effectivenss. You can also make an argument for the Marlins GM to be ahead of Amaro.

        My question is, how do we as fans unite and rebel to make the point to owndership that this must change and soon?

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        1. I know it is probably wishful thinking, but I would like to believe that RAJ was told he couldn’t make any moves at the trade deadline. With a new manager coming in hopefully they will make a change in the Front Office also.

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        2. Chris Wheeler and all of his awfulness has been here forever what makes you think they will move a GM that listens to their monetary concerns and works within those constraints?

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          1. My bad I forgot winning does seem secondary to the owners. Now the Wheeler thing is a question I don’t think anyone can answer, the radio crew should be in the TV booth.

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  8. Juan Sosa with 3 k’s in 2 IP.

    As Harry Carey would say (not when just trying to kill time, but in the middle of a tight game):
    “Sosa spelled backwards is Asos”

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  9. Biddle after Friday night’s game in Trenton:
    “It really has been a humbling experience and a humbling year, but I feel like I’m going to come out on top,” Biddle said. “My coaches have helped me along the way and I feel like I’m a better pitcher now than I was at the beginning of the year. I think that’s the important part.”

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  10. Could Franco be a top 10 prospect in all of baseball if he keeps this up?

    Could Dugan be in the Phillies top 5?

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  11. Don’t see why Dugan is not in the first 5…or closely after. Since being free of his ongoing injuries in the first two full pro seasons, he has come on to represent the likely next OFer to audition for the big club from our system.

    Now he has 14 dingers during this season. Since I see further progress during this and next season, I see an ultimate stat line of 20-25 HRs, .280 BA, .360 OBA to be had in MLB as his average line in a year or two as he adjusts to MLB.. Too bad :1-that he’s not right-handed at the plate and 2-he is not gifted with stolen base speed.

    I DO take note of his Clrwtr too-high K-rate, which I see has declined from 1 K/4ABs…to 1K/5ABs at Reading. His BB rate has declined at Reading, but as soon as he becomes more settled and comfortable I expect that will rise. There doesn’t seem to be any problem in the field, so I assume he adequate or better. Right field calls!

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    1. ArtD…I assume you have Franco, Biddle and Crawford as top three in some fashion? Then you must think Dugan is 4 or 5?

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      1. I don’t think it’s crazy at all to have Dugan at 4 or 5, particularly if Asche is not eligible for the list. I can also understand why some might have trouble having him making quite such a leap, but the fact is that after the top 3, everyone has pretty substantial warts except for Dugan, who’s biggest flag for me is a tendency to get nicked up. On my list, if Asche is eligible, he’s 4 and then it’s a bit of a toss up between Morgan, Tocci and Dugan for the 5th spot.

        For me, Dugan’s proximity combined with the likelihood that he can be a league average regular (which, for perspective, we don’t have very many of at the moment, either prospects who project to be, or major leaguers who are). His BABIP is not gonna sustain, and his k/bb rate is a bit high, but If things keep coming together for him, I could easily see him being a .280/.330/.480, in the bigs with average to above average defense. Not a star, but that plays on most teams.

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    2. I was at the game in Trenton last night. I should have been at all 3 but the wife had other plans.

      Dugan: First time I’ve seen him live. Stance set-up reminds me of Adam Laroche. I was directly behind him so I could not really get a read on his swing mechanics other than to say he gets his hands to the ball very quick. The Trenton Pitcher Greene sat 94-95 most of the night and Kelly’s HR looked like a pitch they tried to pound him on.

      It was a moon shot down the RF line stayed just inside the foul pole. They had him in LF last night. You could see he was trying to get used to the different read. Collier was helping him all night. He did mis-judge an in between line-drive then dove for it and missed it. It was going to be a single anyway but they did charge him an error on the second base. Just after that he made a phenomenal diving catch into the LF foul line. Is he a top 10 prospect? Probably not more like 11-15. Probably profiles as a Nate Schierholtz type.

      FRANCO: That’s why I was there of course. Again from where I was sitting I had a great view of his fielding and hitting mechanics. I will tell you one AB that really stood out was when Collier was on 2nd no out outs. Every hack he took was to hit the ball right side to give himself up and move the runner. He finally on the 4th or 5th pitch squared one up a hard one hop LD to the second baseman and got the job done. Outside of that he hit the ball really hard in another AB to the left center field gap that their Left fielder made a really nice play on. Not sure who this Greene kid was but like I said 94-95 FB that Franco had no trouble with and even when he tried to mix in his Change Maikel was fouling them off.

      In the field he looks smooth to me even though he was charged with one error on a ball that probably should of been scored a hit. It was hit really hard on 1 hop just to his left. Noticed also that balls hit hard to his right even though they were foul he was getting to with ease.

      Other Notes: A shame Collier and Hewitt cannot hit. In Collier you can see a fluid athlete and CF. In Hewitt you can see raw strength and a plus arm. Gary Sanchez is the real deal. Balls off his bat have that sound you always here scouts talk about and his receiving and throwing skills are plus.

      Kahnle came on and physically I can sort of see why maybe we didn’t want him. He is husky kind of reminded me of Heath Bell. Yes his FB was live 95-96 and touched 97 once but it was max effort and the secondary stuff didn’t look like he was able to command.

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      1. So it seems even with a “flawed aproach” he still plays the game the right way. Since you were there would you say that Franco has professional at bats?

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      2. DMAR, what section were you sitting in? I was in section 12 and was three seats away from Ed Wade who very approachable about the Phillies Farm System.

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        1. Any nuggets from Ed Wade on the system? Should have asked him about the Pence transaction and the kids Houston now have.

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          1. I asked Ed Wade some questions between innings as he was scouting the Reading team for the Philles and showed a few of us who recognized him how the radar gun works. He was approachable and said he covers the Phillies minor league teams and souting from Florida to Maine as far west as Harrisburg. Mr. Wade had high praises for JP Crawford, Cord Sandberg, Jan Hernandez on the GCL team. He said that Perkins and Altherr were playing well and mentioned Giles along with some other pitchers. For the Reading team he mentioned Franco, Biddle, Rosin and Dugan. Overall, he answered our questions in a professional manner always stressing the positive side but shied away from any Phillies management questions. He is encouraged by the state of our farm system talent saying it is better than before but still needs work saying it is very hard to draft high quality players when you draft in the bottom for a long time. I did not ask him any questions about his days as the Houston GM but he did say his daughter still works for the Astros.

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        2. Very cool. I was in section E which is first base dugout…

          As for consistent professional AB’s it’s hard to answer from seeing 1 game. I see a kid that can hit big league pitching, I see some pitch recognition skills…he didn’t take many but the ones he did were good takes.

          I don’t think there is any question we will see him in CBP.

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    3. The problem with Dugan is that most of his success the last two years has been driven by a very high BABIP, and come against younger competition.

      He’s now playing at an age-appropriate level in Reading, the numbers are nice but not incredible, and his BB/K ratio is atrocious (around 1/6 right now).

      He’s also a corner outfielder, which is a position with very high offensive requirements.

      I’d probably put him just outside the top 10 right now.

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      1. If it’s two years of BABIP success then it might be sustainable. Hitter BABIP is more individualized than pitcher BABIP. IE David Wright has a very high career BABIP.

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        2. Not at the level he was BABIPing in A and A+ (.391, .401). It’s an indication that he might (might) have a higher than average BABIP in the majors. But nowhere near .391/.401, no one does that.

          Even over a large sample (and two years is not particularly large), minor league BABIP have to be regarded cautiously.

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    4. I think that’s on the optimistic side, but rather than get into the reasons why that is, I will say that I think that that line does represent what you hope Dugan will do. The difference between us is that I see that as an upside that most likely won’t be reached, where Art sees it as a likely projection. But if he does reach that upside, that’s a better than average major league regular.

      Basically to do that he needs to get the K rate a skosh under 20%, get the BB rate a skosh over 10%, get the HR rate up to around 4%, and BABIP an above average .320. At the major league level. All of which is possible, but predicting that all that will happen seems aggressive.

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    2. There’s a link to the affiliate scoreboard at the top of this page. Click on that, then the calendar and select Sunday, Aug. 4. All of the box scores will be there for your perusal.

      There is a General Discussion thread easily found on the main page. Use that until a new one is posted.

      Whenever you post a comment on this site, there is a space below the reply box in which you can put a handle that allows others to distinguish your comments from other anonymous posters. Think of a name: It can be a pun, a reference to a former player, your actual name or something completely made up.

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