Phils trade Hunter Pence to San Francisco

Other Stuff

The Hunter Pence tenure in Philadelphia has come to an end much quicker than thought by most when he was acquired at this time last year.  Reports suggest the haul back from San Francisco is top prospect Tommy Joseph, a 21 year old catcher along with OF Nate Schierholtz and Single A Pitcher Seth Rosin.

Joseph was the Giants 2nd round pick in 2009 out of Horizon High School in Scottsdale, Arizona. Playing for AA Richmond this season, Joseph has hit .260/.313/.391 in 304 AB’s. Joseph walks in 7% of his plate appearances while striking out in 19%. He has hit 8HR and knocked in 38.  A top catching prospect who has thrown out 48% of would be base stealers this season, Joseph has also played 14 games at 1B over the course of the year.

Schierholtz, 28, is a member of the Giants 25 man roster making $1.3M this year as a first time ARB eligible player.  In a platoon role, Schierholtz, who hits left is hitting .257/.327/.429 in 175 AB’s with 5HR and 17 RBI. 

Rosin, 23, a huge RHP born in  North Dakota was the Giants 4th round pick in 2010 out of the University of Minnesota and has spent the season at High A San Jose.  Used mostly as a reliever, Rosin is 2-1 with a 4.31 ERA and 10 saves.  He has thrown 56.1 innings, struck out a very impressive 68, walked just 18, with a WHIP of 1.18.

Pence who was likely to make $15M in his last ARB eligible year next year will join the Giants tomorrow.

283 thoughts on “Phils trade Hunter Pence to San Francisco”

  1. scratchin’ my head a bit here. We just got a top catching prospect, even though we have a pretty highly touted catching prospect of our own. And who will man the OF for the Phillies now? Mayberry, Brown and Schierholtz? I’m sure that more pieces will fall into place in the next two hours

    – Jeff

    Like

    1. I dont think they were thinking about what the system had. They wanted to get the highest valued piece they could get for Pence.

      Yes losing the prospects we lost for Pence is a failure, but at least we shed the salary and got some value.

      Like

      1. Didn’t shed too much. We included cash in the deal as well. Joseph = Valle, Schierholtz = Ben Francisco, Rosin = Name any minor league relief pitcher.

        Like

    1. Jon Singleton is still in AA ball the last time I checked. He could not have helped the Phillies now anyway.

      Like

      1. What does that argument mean? Singleton, Cosart and Santana is 100x the package Joseph, Rosin and Nate are. Apparently Pence didn’t help the Phillies much either as they are in last place and I’d much rather have an all star caliber player under control for 6 years in Singleton over what the Phils have now.

        Like

      2. Could not have helped? I’m not sure that was my point. In the end, its Singleton, Cosart and Santana for Joseph and a bag of baseballs. How’s that sound to ya?

        Like

  3. Wow that is soo much less than we gave up to get him it hurts. And I actually liked Pence a lot more than most of the people on here. More concerning than who is in our outfield the remainder of this year is whom do we have next year. Unless RAJ finds some inexpensive gems in the FA market this is going to be an all-pitch no hit team next year. Which has worked out so well this year.

    Like

  5. It’s a shame that’s all we could get back after giving up Singleton… but sometimes deals don’t work out (see Gonzalez/Floyd for Garcia).

    Like

    1. They’d never get back the same value they gave up for Pence. That extra year of control is worth a lot

      Like

    2. an a year of Hunter Pence. Don’t forget the 30 odd homeruns he hit. We did get something back for him plus salary relief. We ate some of his contract this year, but don’t have to pay the 15 mill next year

      Like

      1. They would’ve had the same results w/o Hunter Pence and more cap flexibility last winter which might mean some decent bp arms.

        Like

    1. I think the Phils after looking at pence for a year were not as impressed as they were before

      Like

  9. I thought an hour ago they said we were going to get Gary Brown in the deal. I bet would could have paid some of Pence’s contract they would have thrown him in

    Like

  10. Time to hope something else is coming. Joseph+Rosin/equivalent+moderate prospect for Headley *pleasepleaseplease*

    Like

    1. That is what I thought as soon as I saw that Joseph was in the deal. Valle or Jospeh will get flipped for Headley. You are right on.

      Like

      1. I thought that but San Diego has plenty of players at 1B and C… why would they want either guy?

        Like

  11. While what we gave up for Pence seems to be far more than what we got back, I, reluctantly, do not fault Amaro for being aggressive last year and trying to win a World Series. Typically, those windows are small (compare 2011 and 2012) and it seemed somewhat clear last year that our window was closing (age, Utley’s knees, free agents to be, etc.) and therefore, he had to go for it. I also have to credit him for getting the best return possible instead of trying to beat the deal from last year or holding on to Pence and thus, tying the Phils’ hands this offseason and in 2013. With the benefit of hindsight, no one would do the Pence-Astros deal again, but at least we may have acquired someone that is highly regarded and can be part of our next wave. I am not worried about Joseph playing the same position as Valle. At worst, it is a luxury.

    Now let’s get Pierre, Blanton, and some others packing and turn our attention to the young guys for the rest of the year.

    Like

    1. My only concern, is would they have been able to get a little more by trading him in the offseason, when more teams might of been in play? But probably not considering that’s even less time a team would of had him.

      Like

        1. I too think Pence’s value was probably at its highest when he was 1 1/2 years away from FA and 1/2 year away from an arb award that will put his salary around the $13-$15 mil range. From what I read, the Phils save $6mil this season by dealing Victorino and Pence now, which should safely take them under the luxury tax (important because of CBA changes — from what I understand there are now sanctions other than just the tax for exceeding the tax in consecutive years).

          Like

    3. I’d be more worried about Joseph playing the same position as Rupp. I’ve seen enough of Valle’s BB and K rate.

      Like

      1. Valle’s numbers are similar to Rupp’s while playing in a more advanced league and being two years younger. Rupp is behind Valle on the depth chart.

        Like

          1. Have you seen Joe’s depth chart? Just curious. Would have a ton of other questions for you. And don’t reference the misinterpreted quote from the recent article where he was talking only of Rupp’s defense.

            Like

            1. Last I looked, the defensive aspect of catching happens to be the fundamental and key ingredient to the position.

              Like

            3. Thats questionable since many of the ‘ very good-great ones’…Molinas, Napoli, Ruiz etc started to be known for their hitting after a few years already in MLB. Posey and Mauer maybe be exception to the rule types

              Like

        2. While Valle and Rupp have similar AVE and SLG. It is Valle’s horrible K and BB rates that say to me that he won’t be more than a major league back-up. Furthermore the fact that Valle’s OPS has declined as he has moved up through the system tells me that pitchers are taking advantage of this. Rupp’s numbers on the other hand have improved over the years. While Rupp is below Valle on the organizational depth chart I see him as someone with much higher up side.

          Like

          1. Agreed on the K and BB rates. May be a difference in how we are defining up side. I would say Valle has a much higher upside, but Rupp has a much higher floor. When evaluating prospects, I prefer the upside guys knowing that they are more likely to flame out. I can certainly see the other side of the argument however. All personal preference.

            Like

    4. I don’t think we need the benefit of hindsight to know the Astro-Pence deal was bad. Giving up 3 top 10 prospects for a slightly above league avg. corner outfielder, especially when your most prized prospect plays the same position, is usually not a good idea.

      Like

      1. I’m pretty sure Singleton was limited to 1B, I seem to remember a LF experiment that didn’t make it out of the Clearwater complex

        Like

      2. It seemed like we gave up a lot at the time, but Pence seemed like a good addition for a team that had legitimate reason to think it could win the World Series. Therefore, if we would have won, we would not have complained about the deal as much as we do today. We did not (and even worse, did not even get there) so the deal looks far worse today and is far more frustrating.

        Like

  12. Here is what I found about Rosin from his 2010 draft year when he was a 4th round pick

    Few pitchers who are Rosin’s size (6-foot-6, 245 pounds) can match his body control. He repeats his delivery and throws strikes so easily that he posted one of the top K-BB ratios (88-12 through 95 innings) in NCAA Division I this spring. Rosin topped out at 96 mph in the Cape Cod League last summer and has pitched at 91-92 mph with a peak of 94 this spring. His fastball is pretty straight, which makes it easier to throw for strikes but also easier to hit. His curveball and changeup have improved but still are fringy, and he’s going to need more fastball life and better secondary pitches to miss bats in pro ball. He may fit better in the bullpen, where he would project as a possible set-up man.

    Like

    2. The Phillies really love those tall relievers, don’t they? I’m not sure how well they pitch, but put him, Schwimer and Aumont together and they make one hell of a pickup basketball team.

      Like

    3. Nice to hear but a bp arm doesn’t mean much. The Phils have had a bunch of arms do well in the minors. Roseberg, Friend, Schwimmer, Aumont. Rosin sticking as a starter would be valuable.

      Like

  14. Maybe I souldn’t be, but, frankly, I am truly shocked by this trade. Starting today, there are no experienced, full-time starters in our outfield (Pierre doesn’t count – he’s a fill-in player). Never in a million years did I expect them to trade Victorino and Pence on the same day. I’m finding it very hard not to view the Pence trade as a mistake. Very weird. There must be several more moves coming, including, perhaps, some more moves today.

    Like

    1. We can finish in last with or without Victorino and Pence. We were not going to make a run anyway. Therefore, we might as well see what Brown can do (not a UPS joke) and what Schierholtz and perhaps some others in AAA or AA can do. It’s not like having Ruben Amaro, Jr out there (sorry, too easy).

      Like

  15. Ugh. It’s pretty hard to spin this one. While I don’t feel horrible about the Victorino trade, the Pence return is pretty ugly. While Joseph is an intriguing piece, he doesn’t really address any of the holes in our system. Schierholz is useful, but no great improvement over any number of AAAA types that can be signed off the street. When you look at this trade in conjunction with the Lee to Seattle trade, Amaro’s shown a remarkably small amount of foresight concerning acquired assets and how they might fit into the financial landscape of the team moving forward. In both cases he’s taken a middling return for a valuable asset simply to re-gain some level of financial flexibility that he’d previously squandered due to poor planning. He shows no ability to effectively make use of leverage, and –after backing himself into a corner– continually deals from a position of weakness.

    Like

    1. There’s a lot of truth to this comment. They overpay one year due to impatience and the next year, they take a little less than fair value for he same player who remains arbitration eligible and who has performed roughly as expected. Amaro often does back himself into a corner on lots of things (including Cole Hamels’ contract).

      But my concern is more immediate. What is the plan for them to contend next year? They have Hamels, Halladay and Lee. They need some hitting again, right? They need an established outfielder or two for at least another year. They had one. Now they’ve traded him. They have to go out and get one or two. What’s the point?

      Like

  16. Hard to feel happy about this considering all we gave up … and I’ll be looking forward to all the rending of garments that occurs next year when Pence hits .320 with 34 home runs in his contract year. One a prospect note, though, do we think this paves the way for Valle to be converted into a third baseman? There’s been a lot of talk about that over the years. I wonder how his defense compares with Joseph’s (forgive me if that question has been answered elsewhere.

    Like

    2. Yeah, there’s been a lot of talk about it. Mostly, in 2006 (as I recall) when Baseball America projecting the starting line-up in 2012, or whatever, listed him as the 3B man.
      I think it was just because they had Travis D’Arnaud projected as the Catcher, and needed a place to put the other top prospect they had left over.
      Don’t see where he played 3B, maybe 1B in DSL.
      I think he can play there though, as C and 3B are very similar. Maybe they can get a more experienced guy to work in at 3B, instead.

      Like

      1. He will not go to 3B at this stage of his development and career, in his 6th year. He will need FIL experience first, then game experience, too late for all that. Hw will be Rule 5 after next season

        Like

        1. He has more value at C anyway. It makes more sense to trade one guy than put Valle at 3rd.

          Like

          1. To me, Valle is a valuable backup and a capable enough starting catcher if you need him to fill in. There’s a lot of value in that, and hey, if he learns even a hint of patience he could be more. No sense moving him to third where his value will be much lower.

            Like

  17. I understand the significance of the salary savings, both this year and the cumulative impact of a higher tax in future years. Even with that context, I’m still disappointed by the return.

    I’ve heard some positive things about Joseph, and I’m willing to give him and the Phillies the benefit of the doubt. There is a strong argument to be made that he is the top position player in the system.

    The disappointing part of the return was Scheirholtz, who is nothing more than a warm body, and Rosin. If you include another even mediocre prospect – perhaps Gillespie – this deal isn’t terrible, but Scheirholtz and Rosin – blech. I would have much preferred taking a shot with Brandon Belt.

    The Phillies were in a position with little leverage in that teams knew their need to shed salary. Still, the return was disappointing.

    Like

  18. They are saving an estimated 26.5 million dollars next year, so Hamels’ 2013 is paid for. Meanwhile, some younger outfielders will get a chance to play. It is unlikely that they will be any worse than they were this year; it is also unlikely that they will contend barring something amazing occurring, so it would make sense to unload Blanton and possibly Lee as well as Pierre and Wigginton.

    Like

    1. your estimation is largely based on the projection of pence’s arb contract (somewhere around 15mil) and thus it implies that we will be trotting out an OF of brown at one corner (very exciting), schierholtz at the other (solid player, imo below avg. starter but who knows) and then what? keep mayberry in CF for 2013? This deal does not save us that much money especially if we end up inking Bourne or someone at 10-12mil per. If Pence had brought back someone to step into 3B or another OF spot then we could talk about savings. Maybe Joseph will be great/bring back someone good, but right now I have to say this deal sucks.

      I was excited to see how RAJ would perform today, as I thought some shrewd maneuvering could bring the team back to contention for 2013. I realize they can still spend $ and make trades this winter but at least right now, these deals just brought back more questions to answer.

      Like

      1. Actually, my estimate was based on $14 million for Pence and $12.5 million for Victorino. Hamels deal averages $24 million per year, but might be less than that next year. If the Phillies want to save money, they can platoon Mayberry and Scherholz (say in right field), put Brown in centerfield (where he says he is most comfortable). Jason Pridie is hitting well in AAA (small sample) shows power (11 of 28 hits are for extra bases) and would also be an outfield option. Admittedly, such an alignment would be very left-handed, especially when added to Howard and Utley, so they might wish to add a right-handed power bat, but as I stated above, ” it is also unlikely that they will contend barring something amazing occurring.”

        Like

  19. Hey, guess what? Seth Rosin is actually a LHP, not RHP. I know Baseball Reference, et. al. says bats R , throws R. Look at the Giants top 20 prospect list on their website. The Player Card says bats R, throws R, but the text says Left Handed and the picture shows player throwing with Left Hand. Looks like a 6’6 250 guy, also. So, if that is not a picture of a different player, some things need to change.
    So, how do you like the pre-Pence, Pence, post-Pence sequence of maneuvers now?

    Like

    1. Look him up on YouTube. He throws with the north-side appendage (that would be the right one)

      Like

      1. Yeah, he is a RHP. Should have looked at the video MLB.com put with the picture. The picture , though , shows him in a pose as a LHP, and below it says LHP, though below that it says B-R T-R, and then the text refers to Lefty or something. Have to look things up more carefully.

        Like

  20. Anyone on here think this was a good trade?? 3 million they saved is a joke. to give up a allstar outfielder in pence for this bag of donuts is nut. amaro is overmatched as a gm. and there is no way, no way anyone with any brains can say they got any value for pence. They have enough guys like rosin in the system now and we have guys at triple a who are as good or better than schienholz.raise the ticket prices and the beer we are near the luxury tax. cant believe ownership and the scouts . would okay this trade. another time amaro pulled the trigger too early/

    Like

      1. While we gave up a lot for him last year, you cannot use that as the measuring stick to compare whether RAJ made the best deal he could this year. I am not sure RAJ could have done any better this year, even if he waited until the offseason. He accomplished two important things — he got a well-regarded prospect (at a position of need and demand) and salary relief to help get the Phils under the cap. Plus, Pence’s subtraction (in combination with others that are FA’s at the end of the season) frees up money to spend for 2013 (they still will need a CF and 3B at a minimum). It may not be perfect and may not harmonize with the Pence deal last year, but I am not sure what more RAJ could do. I wish I could criticize RAJ more so to eliminate the cognitive dissonance I have over my belief that he did well today versus the seemingly traditional irrationality and impulsiveness of some of his past moves, but he did probably did as well as he could have today.

        Like

        1. Yeah, they’re going to get a 3B and a CF at a minimum. A minimum salary.
          Yeah, maybe , they will have more to spend, but I don’t see much in the FA list to justify spending the excess over the minimum on, and also get younger, except , perhaps for players who will cost too much, or are doubtful to come to Philly. So, Maybe they make some trades, but what do they have to trade, really?

          Like

      1. yea but they’ll still very likely sign an OF this summer, how much of that $15mil gets cancelled out, who knows?

        Like

        1. He’s not a $15 million player though. $10-$12 million at best. It’s going to get cancelled out, most likely for a guy like Michael Bourn (or if they REALLY want to make a splash Josh Hamilton but given his past, I’d doubt that).

          Like

    3. Why do people named “Anonymous” make posts like this? Do they feel safer making foolish statements with the “Anonymous” name?

      Like

    4. They saved a lot of 2013 dollars by reducing their taxes on their overage by 13%. They will go over the number in 2013 no doubt and they would pay that extra 13% (30%) total if they did not trade either Pence or Lee. Trading Pence probably saves about 20,000,000$ I would think over 3 years. About the cost of Hamels.
      They still may need to trade Lee if they sign Bourn. I think it is possible that the big club takes a breath next year, signs the best defensive players they can find for 3B and CF does some platooning and reloads for a 2014 big push.

      Like

  21. The funny thing about having to dump Pence, who though we over paid to get him, is still a valuable player, is that one of the big reason we need to dump salary is we just gave the biggest deal ever to a reliever. I’m sorry, but I really don’t think RAJ has a plan and he views every deal in a vacuum.

    Like

  24. Hold the phone John Quinn………Keith Law, an extreme Phillies hater and denigrator of anything akin to cheese steaks et. al., actually claims the Phils did quite well on Victorino, surprisingly so given that he has digressed into a weak player ; and was surprised what they got for Pence – FAVORABLY SO ! The Phils did not get back what they gave up to get Pence he states but with one year less team control he likes the catcher and pitcher they got ! Wonders never cease ?

    Like

  25. On the bright side, we have more players to follow on this site and the draft next year will be considerably more exciting than it has in the past!

    Like

  26. I was just thinking about how the Giants gave up Zach Wheeler last year for a Beltran rental. And how we didn’t get an equivalent prospect for a year+ of Pence (even though Joseph is a nice prospect, that’s how it seems to me). The Schierholtz part of this trade bothers me the most. Maybe the Phillies see him as more than a 4th OF?

    Like

    2. He’s a good defensive outfielder who doesn’t embarrass himself at the plate. At worst, he’s Ben Francisco. At best, a good platoon option with Mayberry next year.

      As 2:23 Anon says, new prospects! On this site, at least, we can be happy with some new players to follow. Really interested to see where Joseph and Martin are sent, and the corresponding moves if it’s Reading.

      Reader Top 30 this winter should be a blast.

      Like

    3. yea, I wonder if the Phillies could’ve got brown for Pence straight up. If I’m the Phillies, I don’t do that move. The Giants didn’t have another prospect with Wheeler, and they undervalued him last year. while they didn’t get compensation for Beltran, they didn’t have to pay 15 million

      Like

  27. surprised the reds didn’t make a bigger play for vict. they need a leadoff hitter in the worst way.

    Like

  28. It’s about that time of deadline day where RAJ is probably cooking up something extra special for us….can anyone say Chase Headley for Jesse Biddle, Cesar Hernandez, Larry Greene Jr, and a PTBNL (hello Lisaberto Bonilla)……

    Like

  30. sorry philban i posted about the trade. damm computer makes me log in every time and doesnt put in my roccom/ so if you have a problem with my post. its me and i stand by what I said amaro and this ownership blew this pence trade. they could afford the three million. that is the joke part.if you dont get value you keep pence and wait. if you wait you couldnt get worst then they got now.AMARO imo is the worst poker player that i ever saw. i’ll take ,and i cant believe i am saying this edward wade over him. to make trades.

    Like

    1. Ruben, not sure how good or bad a poker player, but does seem to have some shortcomings when dealing.

      Like

  31. I don’t understand why everyone is complaining. RAJ did well to get what he got for 3 months of Victorino and 1+ season of a mediocre and overpaid Pence. He obviously overpaid for Pence last season, but the Phils needed a corner outfielder and he was the safest option available. His stock has since diminished, with his poor defense and poor approach at the plate this year. Dealing him frees up some payroll for next year, and at least they got a good catching prospect for him. I’d honestly rather have Tommy Joseph than Sebastian Valle, who has never impressed me.

    Like

    1. Amaro did do well today because he didn’t have much to work with. But the concern is his propensity to pay for overvalued assets. I think a lot of us on this board as well as others thought that Pence was a 3 WAR corner OFer who doesn’t get on base enough and whose value was inflated. There was no reason why Amaro should have traded Singleton, Cosart, and Santana for Hunter Pence.

      Like

      1. I think the Phils picked Pence up when his value was at his peak, and traded him away when his value was as low as it could go. It’s a timing issue, not a talent evaluation issue. He traded Singleton, Cosart, and Santana for Pence because the front office thought that Dom Brown wasn’t ready and they needed an everyday right fielder. Pence was the best guy available.

        Like

  32. G the cardinals just gave up cox there 5th rated prospect a third basemen for a 4.37 era relief pitcher,where is ruben, why not take a flyer on cox.

    Like

    1. Cox’s star has dimished. Come on. You’d rather have Cox than Joseph (SF’s #2 rated prospect)?

      Like

  33. Another crap trade. At least if you kept him you would have only hurt 2014 on. Instead the damage begins now and will last till Singleton ends his time playing in the majors.

    Like

    1. I assume Joseph and Valle will switch off C and 1B/DH?

      I wonder if they’ll promote Ruf to take Brown’s spot.

      Like

      3. .230/.297/.377
        He wouldn’t be much worse than Wiggington, but he wouldn’t be a good option.

        Like

  37. Not the point. the point is not joseph against cox, its getting a potential thirdbase who is twenty three for a relief pitcher, we gave up a allstar outfielder for one good propect. not a good trade sorry, even my main man ed wade woulndt do that deal

    Like

    1. You’re focusing on one trade. Look at all the other trades took place today.

      Cox didn’t have much value anyway. He’s a lottery ticket at this point, and most likely a loser. Obviously, the Cards wouldn’t have dealt him for a middle reliever if they thought differently.

      And Pence was a fluke all star last season. He had a career year. And this year, he is a year closer to free agency and he has regressed. His trade value is not what it was a year ago.

      Like

        1. I think Blanton would have enough suitors to not accept a 1 year deal even if the money was big for that 1 year.

          Like

        2. The only way to qualify for a comp, is to offer a one year contract at around $12.5 million. Not arbitration. I think he takes that.

          Like

  40. the reading rotation: May, Colvin, J-Rod, Martin, Hyatt. so holland’s is out or maybe hyatt gets sent back up. does this block wright/morgan at all?

    Like

    1. Hyatt needs to be moved to the Bullpen or be released. If he is 26 and struggling in AAA and has been okay at AA he should be expendable for a guy like Morgan

      Like

    2. Hyatt is just filling a spot until Morgan gets moved up, hopefully soon. I would imagine Wright stays in CLW the entire year. Hopefully Rosin moves into CLW rotation, taking Colvin’s spot.

      Like

      1. Rosin is a reliever, it would be a shame to leave him as a starter because he is a good two pitch pitcher, it would be better to have him work on a third pitch in the bullpen, rather than struggle in the rotation

        Like

      1. I think they just want to give Joseph somewhere to go to start playing. In his defense, if we had Joseph in our system and saw how he was coming along in AA having just turned 21 (has hit for power in July and drawn a ton of walks), we would have been a little irked by the trade. He is clearly the best catching prospect we’ve had since d’Arnaud.

        Still, I’m stunned by the Pence trade. In any event, my guess is that the Phillies are stockpiling prospects to engineer a trade for Justin Upton this off season. I’m dead serious.

        Like

        1. I’m expecting them to have a big (2011 Red Sox, 2009 Yankees) off season. I’d imagine they’ll make a hard run at Chase Headley, Michael Bourn, Justin Upton, among others.

          Like

          1. 2013
            Brown-Bourn-Francoeur
            Polanco-Rollins-Utley-Howard
            Ruiz-Joesph
            Halladay-Hamels-Lee-Worley-Cloyd
            FA-Schwimer-Diekman-Stutes-Bastardo-Lindblom-Papelbon

            Like

            1. I’m not going to be happy if Polanco’s on the team. He’s lost his range at third base and his offense is terrible.

              Like

            2. It is just not worth it to pursue Headley or another Third Baseman if we want Bourn and/or Francoeur, maybe if you take away one of the OF’s we could get a Third Baseman, but then we would have a bigger gap in the OF. Have Polanco for one year $1million or less and then when Asche/Valle/Joesph/Schoop/Whoever is ready get rid of him. We could last another half year w/o an elite Third Baseman from my stand point, we would give too much money, or too good of prospects to upgrade at 3-4 positions

              Like

            3. Francoeur? Really? Have the phillies really sunk that low? Words do not exist in the English language to adequately convey how bad he is.

              Like

            4. I mean, not to pile on, I’d MUCH rather plug in shierholtz, or even give Mayberry another shot. Franceour may be the worst regular player in baseball this year, well below replacement level. He’s been better, but over the past 5 years he has been essentially replacement level. Heck, I’d bring back Ben Francisco first. Franceour is simply horrible in every aspect of the game, aside from power, and he isn’t much there either.

              Like

          2. The rumor is that the Red Sox might trade Ellsbury, I could see the Phils at least looking into that as a trade to fill the CF hole. But I think they will definitely flip some guys to rebuild in the offseason.

            Like

        3. Ruben would try that for Upton, but I doubt it. But I was one of the weirdos to suggest that we would take Werth’s money and throw it at Lee in 2010, so you never no

          Like

          1. I feel like “Sheriff Joe Arpegio” should me the name of a southern roots jam band.

            Like

    2. I get that theres a logjam behind the Reading plate now but sending Valle to lehigh valley sucks. He still could have used a lot of work behind the plate at AA and it would have been nice to have him still receiving for May/J-Rod/Colvin

      Like

      1. I don’t think Valle is ready for AAA. I expected him to repeat AA. His offensive numbers there are quite poor. I’m pretty surprised he is being promoted, actually.

        Like

        1. Is there really that much of a difference between AA and AAA? There’s more veterans in AAA but there’s better prospects in AA.

          Like

      2. There really isn’t a ton of difference between AAA and AA. Its not like A+ to AA, which is a big jump.

        Like

      3. Agree with the above comments that it really isn’t a large difference between AA and AAA, they keep Joseph in the same league while he adjusts to a new organization. Someone had to move up to make room and they moved the guy they knew more about.

        Like

  43. I like the Victorino deal. The Pence deal, not so much. I think Jonathan Singleton Jarred Cosart Domingo Santana is way higher value than Tommy Joseph, Seth Rosin & Nate Schierholtz. I’d rather have catcher Andrew Susac from SanFran than Tommy Joseph.

    Like

    1. Susac is obviously interesting since we almost had him in our system, but Joseph is just better.

      Like

    2. The question isn’t whether Singleton et al are worth Joseph et al. Those are separate trades. The fact that the trade for Pence last year was terrible does not make this trade bad.

      Like

  44. Can’t wait to watch ther Phils tonight with the Of of Pierre / Mayberry/ Nix …it should be comical and when Dom Brown joins them it will be ” saturday night live worthy.”

    Like

    1. Replace Nix and Pierre with Brown and Schierholtz and while not murderer’s row there is some upside there and for roster flexibility they are making a combined 2.1 million.

      Like

      1. The problem is they all bat LH and only Schierholtz is good defensively. They lost 2 RH bats with VIC and Pence and added 2 LH bats to the OF . It will be tough to platoon

        Like

    1. Was about to say seemed unnecessary but catcher is a strength in this system.

      Majors: Ruiz, Schneider, Kratz (I think they go with 3 just because they are the best PH options though I could see a Schneider move)
      AAA: Valle
      AA: Joseph
      A+: Rupp
      A-: Lino
      SS: Moore, Numata

      Hopefully one of them pans out but there needs to be playing time for all of them

      Like

      1. Don’t forget Ludy and Astudillo. Tonight was Lino’s 21st passed ball. Ludy is finally hitting well after a tough adjustment.

        Like

  46. From Rotoworld: Blue Jays acquired C Tuffy Gosewisch from the Phillies for cash considerations.
    It’s an organizational depth move with all the injuries to catchers in the Jays’ farm system. Gosewisch, 28, is a .232/.301/.358 career hitter in the minor leagues.

    Like

    1. Damn, Manure Martinez becomes the weirdest name in the Org.. Kid is a great catcher who could help a big league team as a defensive backup. Best of luck to him.

      Like

      1. Gee Evan, you should see the variety of names around the world. They are different; not wierd. His name is spelled Manaure, which seems difficult for you to understand, but it is his name. Respect it. I also like the derivation of the word Gauntlett that Eldemire has. It is descriptive of his family’s condition and very nice to know. I will think of its gritty meaning whenever I see it; nothing else. You seem to be close to the bullpen a lot. I hope you get the chance to meet Manaure. He looks like the best pitcher of the short season teams.

        Like

  48. Brown is not in the starting lineup tonight. Agree with you Alan that I like what they did today as it was necessary to get younger and reduce payroll. Hope they can make a run at a good CF in the off season.

    Like

    1. His flight was delayed and will barely make it there before game time, but is supposed to be there for the game

      Like

    2. According to Twitter his flight was delayed from Syracuse and he just arrived at the park so I expect to see him on PH duty tonight and/or immediately taking over for Pierre

      Like

  49. Ironically, beyond Buster Posey only being 25, one of the things that made Tommy Joseph expendable was that the Giants drafted Andrew Susac in the 2nd round last year. They had the depth at the position to afford to trade away Joseph.

    Like

      1. At the time Marti Wolever was quoted that the Phillies determined that Susac wasn’t worth his asking price. Which was just about what Susac got from the Giants in Round 2 last year.

        I just find it ironic that the Phillies will trade MLB veterans to try and fill voids in the farm system they either created with trades for MLB veterans in the first place, or created by not being willing to spend more money on bonuses for top talent (pre-2012 draft before the new system).

        Like

        1. Every team doesn’t sign HS kids. Every single major league team. A team could spend 40-50 million in the draft every year just signing HS kids.

          Though, I wonder what the return would be on that strategy.

          Like

          1. I know that. Been thru all this before. The Phillies spend in 09 and 10 was at or near the bottom of MLB. They did this by choice. Even if they had given both Jake Stewart and Andrew Susac the $1M each they wanted (or close to it) the Phillies spend would still have been the middle of the pack. The Phillies passed on guys like Wil Myers and Nick Castellanos in 2009 and 2010 because they both wanted between $2M and $4M to sign. Everybody that was paying attention knew that if a guy wanted over $1M to sign after Round 1 he wasn’t going to be a Phuture Phillie.

            While the Nationals were getting a chance to draft guys like Ryan Zimmerman, or Bryce Harper, and pay him $17M, the Phillies passed on numerous chances (under the old system) to try and keep close by signing guys with 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round talent in the later rounds. They took this blue light special approach at the same time RAJ was trading away the best prospects for MLB veterans.

            If the Phillies had paid Andrew Susac in 2009 and he was already in the farm system at Clearwater or Reading, maybe they could have targeted a better OF or 3B prospect from another team for Hunter Pence.

            Yes…these draft decisions were in the past. But the accumulated effect of them means the Phillies will be living with those decisions at the MLB level for the next 2-3 seasons at least. They are now going to have to buy victories thru free agency. That is very expensive and very dangerous. Because typically you are paying top dollar for maybe slightly above average performance at best…and maybe far worse.

            Like

            1. I’m not saying that either Stewart or Sucac aren’t going to be great prospects and decent MLBers, but their first years as professionals have been lackluster. So far, these guys aren’t making me feel bad about not giving them 1M each back whatever draft they were in after high school.

              Like

            2. I am sorry they didn’t sign Susac. I place a very high value on catching prospects. I wanted him more than Stewart, and as much as Colvin in 2009. We’ll see what Susac looks like next year. He wouldn’t be the first catching prospect that started out a little slow.

              Like

        2. Hindsight is 20/15. Used to be 20/20 but then we got the Internet and everyone is a freakin’ expert.

          Like

          1. Whatever. If you were around in 2009 or 2010, you would realize the same thing was said then. It amazes me the lengths some will go to defend the lowest draft spend in MLB during that period.,,at the same time RAJ was trading away all the best prospects no less.

            And here we are today, as we go into another offseason trying to figure out a way to buy wins via free agents…of needing to trade starters to save money and restock the farm system…because the farm system isn’t in a position to provide much impact help on it’s own.

            Those that don’t recognize mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

            Like

            2. How do you explain Alec Rash going from 95mph in the spring to mid 80’s mph on his fastball in less than three months? That is the main reason he was not signed by the Phillies.

              Like

            5. Nobody: Yes I wish they had signed Susac and every other draftee. I could not care less how much they spend as it is not my money. Unfortunately, these guys are operating under a budget that we all wish was a bit higher. My only problem with your commentary is that you and the rest of the “I told you so” group fail to bring up all of the correct decisions made on these draft bonus issues. Ie. “I wanted the Phillies to sign Joey Prospect and they did not and he has never set foot on a MLB playing field. They really made a good decision there.” You also fail to say, “geez I really wanted them to pay over slot for Joe prospect and the Phillies did and he actually ended up sucking and it was a waste of money. Boy was I wrong.” It is really easy to pick on the glaring mistakes. We all make them and I imagine every team makes them too.

              Like

            6. Yes but regardless of individual draft picks that they did or didn’t sign, they still have had a small budget.

              Like

        3. No offense, but I find the “too bad the Phillies didn’t sign X, he became a higher draft pick/is excelling in another organization” thing kind of a pointless repetitive argument. Lots of guy don’t get signed out of high school because they have unrealistic salary demands, some of them end up developing further and being drafted at higher rounds. Lots of them–maybe more of them, it’s hard to track–end up blowing out their arms or having lousy college careers and so on.

          Like

          1. “Lot’s of guys don’t get signed out of HS because they have unrealistic salary demands… end up having lousy college careers”

            Harold Martinez class of 2008 maybe?

            Like

            1. Let’s not ignore all the guys that have been worth their asking price. When the Phillies passed on Mark Teixeira in 2001 because he wanted $6M to $8M and they were petrified of Scott Boras after what happened with JD Drew in 1998, Teixeira turned out to be worth every penny…times 10.

              Like

          2. That position might actually mean something if there ever was a player the Phillies had ever deemed “worth it.” The fact that they never determined a guy that was worth it basically tells us all we need to know.

            And who cares how many draft picks fail? 95% of all draft picks fail. This is about getting good scouts (which the Phillies have) and giving them the resources to compete with the other teams you need to compete against.

            Not sure what is so difficult to understand that if a guy like Susac was already in the system, maybe it frees the Phillies up to trade Pence for a better quality 3B or OF prospect. Seems like common sense observation to me.

            Like

            1. I’m sorry…”The fact that they never determined a guy that was worth it basically tells us all we need to know.” What does that mean? They’ve never signed a draft pick before?

              There are lots of players the Phillies drafted over the years that they didn’t seem worth their demands that have never panned out. Just in 2009 draft, everybody was upset that Brodie Greene didn’t get signed. He is now 24 in the Southern league with a .608 OPS. In 2008 there was an uproar that Johnny Coy didn’t sign. He went undrafted this year after four years as a first baseman at Wichita State. Keon Broxton was the other one from that draft. He’s now in A+ for the Arizona system for the second year striking out in 1/4 of his PA’s and sporting a .714 OPS.

              The point from above still stands. Sometimes they are right to not meet these kids demands.

              Like

  51. As Catch22hman said above, it seems as though RAJ is attempting to stockpile assets as opposed to reaching for positions of need. Thank goodness for that, as this is a common cause of mistakes made by GM’s in every sport.

    We’ll have to see how the rest of the year plays out, but it would seem as though a big offer to Bourn is a foregone conclusion, with trade ammo to fill in at 3B/2B/LF/RF as needed.

    Like

    1. “Stockpiling assets”. I think that is a good way to describe the trades.
      The Phillies had one of the weaker top 10 prospect lists of any team. They basically added 2 better players to their top 5. They now have 2 extra assets, if a trade presents itself in the off season.
      Ethan Martin has performed better in AA than Trevor May, and is basically what we wish Brody Colvin will be, at this time next year. Tommy Joseph is a slightly better prospect than Valle, judging by BA’s OFP ratings last year, and a slightly better performance in the same league, at a younger age.

      Like

      1. I hear you, and I’m not one of the people really down on the trade. But the loss of pence for 2013, combined with the lack of quality talent in return at positions of need, means most likely a short term (2013, 2014) fall to mediocrity or worse. Maybe that was unavoidable, but is still depressing.

        I (gasp!) agree with Marfis that the next FA class is mostly unappealing, and the team lacks pieces to make a blockbuster trade for a young, controllable star. Filling in 2 outfielders and a 3B is going to be rough in the short run.

        Like

        1. If the Phillies execute a good plan next year, they don’t have to be mediocre next year.
          They were the favorites this year, with Pence and Polanco at RF and 3B. If the Phillies turn around and ‘Flip’ Martin, Joseph and Rosin for Chase Headley, they would have effectively replaced Pence and Polanco with Brown and Headley for 8mil, instead of paying about 20million. Combine that 12m savings, with Victorino’s 9 million, the Phillies can plug-in CF and LF with competent players.
          I know Hamels gets a 9m per raise, but Blanton leaving covers that.
          If the Phillies spend the same money next year, that they spent this year, and Howard and Utley are relatively healthy, they don’t have to be mediocre, at all.

          Like

          1. First of all, you’re a little (not a lot) off on the dollars; always better to just look at next year’s obligations rather than count up savings versus increases. A minor point perhaps since they have now put themselves in a position to go over the cap next year.

            Beyond that, I’m not sure that package gets you headley; the asking price is supposedly very high, unreasonably high.

            As for the outfielders, I guess it depends upon how you define competent. Bourne might be a good get if the contract is reasonable, but it may not be. Most of the other guys out there are mediocre at best. The exceptions likely too costly. Overpaying for mediocrity sucks. Better maybe to take a chance on a high risk, cheap older player, but that’s not the route to contention most of the time.

            Like

            1. I could be off (a little) on the numbers, but it was an estimate, just to illustrate the holes in the team can be addressed next year. Also, you may be correct, that Martin and Joseph may not be enough for Headley. The asking price at the deadline may be different in November, though.
              Headley is due to get a raise in arbitration. The Padres have shown they are willing to listen to offers. If they are not interested in the Phillies’ prospects, then you have to be creative and trade from a position of strength. I’d offer Worely+ for Headley, if I thought it was harder to fill 3B than 4th starter. Kendrick is still under contract, and another backend starter can be found.

              Like

            2. Why do want to trade Worley? He is a low cost effective starter which is what this team needs after the big three. Worley was pitching very well until he had the elbow chips and went on the DL.

              Like

          2. I guess one way to look at it is that, even if you are right about the numbers, 20 million for 2 OF, divided evenly, is the sweet spot of over payment. IMO, 10 million a year FA outfielders (and they usually get 3 year contracts) tend to be overpaid mediocrities.

            But of course if they can convert the player acquired to filling a position of need, headley or someone else, you do have a point, even if filling the OF spots won’t be easy.

            Like

            1. I can see the Phillies giving Nick Swisher a contract similar to Carlos Quentin maybe a little less money. Swisher at 27 million over 3 is much better than Hunter Pence at 15 million over 1.

              Like

            2. I think he’ll get more, and he is a regression risk because of age. That said, of the guys out there, and given team needs, swisher is a guy to consider.

              CF is the real dilemma. After Bourne, the second best FA CF is … Vic. And the options gp down hill rapidly, at least in terms of FAs.

              Like

            3. I think they will trade for a CF. They have collected assets and I expect to trade from their catching and pitching depth. I think Ellsbury if available is the trade target and his RH bat would play well in the line up, but the price is likely to be huge (and the health risk)

              Like

            5. Sorry screwed that up. Still leave the team very left handed but at least Ellsbury (and Brown) do not show noticable platoon splits)
              Ellsbury: vs RH .300/.354/.459 , vs LH .298/.352/.422

              Like

            8. His season is completely Coors induced. Completely. I mean he has some speed but meh. His Coors inflated stats may make him more expensive and he’s not worth it at a moderate price.

              Like

            9. we need some sort of new thread area… Vance Worley could fit in Kansas City. Alex Gordon I know signed a new deal but that outfield is crowed and we now have a lot of pitching depth in the system. Worley and 2 of our top 10 pitchers could get that done.

              Like

            10. I hate the notion of going after Bourn. I think we try to make a trade for a 1-2 year short term acquisition, assuming Dom Brown doesn’t actually show he can handle it.

              I’d actually be fine with throwing some real prospects as Bourjos, but I believe he ends up finding a spot on that team next spring.

              Like

            11. Tyson Gillies foolishness this year may have cost him a future outfield spot. With a little bit of luck and a lot less stupidity, he would be handling centerfield duties at Lehigh Valley right now. In my view he unquestionably has the talent to be a starting big leaguer, but poor decisions and bad luck have made him a question mark.

              Like

      2. Martin is kind of old to still be in AA, and he still has command issues from what I’ve read. He also will have to be placed on the 40 man roster -5 year rule.

        Like

        1. How is he too old for AA? He was drafted in the 1st round in 2008. The same year May and Pettibone were drafted. He’s 6 months older than Trevor May.

          Like

  52. Does anybody realize how unsuccessful Joe Jordan has been? Is Wieters the only big league star he has produced? Bundy and Machado are good, but they haven’t made it yet. The Orioles system has been god awful, and now Jordan is stocking our system with former O’s that were no good i.e. Brandon Tripp, Miguel Abreu, Kyle Hudson, Kyle Simon, Gabriel Lino, Kyle Hoppy, Steve Lerud. Let’s hope he knows what he is doing now, according to Jon Mayo, Joesph is our #4 Prospect and Martin is #6

    Like

    1. Mayo still has May #1 and Colvin #3. Joseph and Martin will be higher than #4 and #6 when he has time to re-rank each teams’ prospects.

      Like

      1. I think he ranks May and Colvin first and third because they truly have the best upside in the system. May has taken steps back before and has come out better for them.

        Like

    2. Evan, don’t you think working for an owner like Peter Angelos has anything to do with the Orioles farm system?

      Like

      1. Not to mention that half of the players listed (Tripp, Abreau, Lerud) were in the organization before Jordan took the job.

        Like

  53. Pretty simple here, fellas. Ruben buys high and sells low. If I’m a rival GM, I like when he calls. I hope RAJ’s learned something for going forward, because he’s done nothing but squander assets for the past few years chasing the WS, and as we all know, the Phils have done nothing but step backward every year. Guess what? One more veteran star never makes the difference.
    Further, RAJ is proving the value of the Eagles’ financial model. Eagles identify their guys when young and pay them during production. Then they let them go at 32 instead of paying the reward contract. Contrast that to the Howard, etc contracts. The Phillies’ hands are tied because of those. IMO, the Hamels contract is OK – he should be productive that whole time. But the rest, a disaster.

    Like

    2. Everybody should follow the Eagles model because they’ll win plenty of championships that way. Oh wait…

      Like

  54. I wish we had a seperate post for i miss singleton comments…hes gone…and now so is pence…i like following the prospects alot…but a major part for prospects is to be used as trade chips…sure it would be awesome to have a last place team every year so we can keep all of our prospects and not worry about a gm who may trade away a few possible future stars for a key piece at a legitimate run at a world series…i wish i was born in kansas city or san diego!

    Like

    2. Sam, is not the ultimate goal to put a winning product on the MLB field? All the minor league operations should be geared to providing the MLB team the best players. Not to be smart but each team you mentioned has their own prospect sites.

      Like

  55. This is probably not the appropriate place to make this comment, but I think it’s about time for us to rerank the Top 10. Not sure of my order here, but I’m thinking: Biddle, Joseph, May, Morgan, Pettibone, Hernandez, LG Jr., Quinn, Stewart, Colvin. Just missing: Asche, Walding, Valle

    One nice thing about that list, as compared to last years: no relievers on it. (I would have had Bonilla on it, probably, if not for the injury.) In retrospect, the presence of JDF and Aumont in the top 10 last year was a real indicator of weakness. I actually think this looks like a pretty decent list. Lots of talented starting pitchers with reasonably high ceilings and middle infield prospects, very valuable commodities.

    Like

      1. Yeah, I never know what to do with new draft picks who have gotten little/no exposure to professional ball. I think I’d probably put the new guys someplace in the 10-20 zone as a result. Same with Cozens.

        Like

        2. I tried to estimate the new top 30 yesterday, after the trades. With the trades. plus the GCL guys (who are all raking) and the 3 guys at Williamsport, it was tough to keep guys like Pointer and James in the top 30.

          Like

          1. James I have definitely out of the top 10, but not out of the top 30. Here’s my top 10:

            1. Biddle
            2. May
            3. Joseph
            4. L.Greene
            5. Martin
            6. Pettibone
            7. Morgan
            8. Hernandez
            9. Watson
            10. Valle

            Like

      2. Gueller and Watson keep on ending up around 8-10 on my top 30, and every single time I look at it I feel I’m being much too low on them, but can’t seem to move them up into my top 5. I wish I remember where I had Biddle the season after he signed.

        Like

        1. What do you use as a bases for rating Watson and Guellar, oither then they were high draft picks?

          Like

          1. That they are high picks, and the team and others (Scouts inc) believe they are amongst the best prospects in the system, is reason enough to consider them top prospects.
            They’re in my top 20 also, until they prove otherwise.

            Like

    3. Ethan Stewart is in your top 10. That is surprising. I have the following: 1. Biddle 2. Joseph 3. Martin 4. Morgan 5. Pettibone 6. May 7. LGj 8. Valle 9. Hernandez 10. Franco 11. Asche 12. Quinn 13. Tocci 14. Walding 15. Colvin

      Like

    4. If Tocci maintains his current contact rate, along with speed and good defense he may crack my top 10. We’ve seen him hold up well over the winter against older competition and now in the GCL. Might be the best chance of all our prospects to end up as a blue chipper.

      Like

  56. Not breaking any new ground with my hatred of the Pence trade. Pence is an All-Star caliber RF. He is getting costly but is just about worth what he is being paid. He is controllable for playoff run and next season AND is worth a high pick after that!
    Prospects have huge risk, Pence is a known and valuable quantity. If this is all Amaro could get he should have waited. And the kicker is, the Phillies chipped in $$. I assume to get a better prospect?
    If Phillies needed to dump more salary Amaro had to do was dump Blanton and Wigginton. Blanton makes nearly the same $$ as Pence.

    Schierholtz was likely ‘forced’ on the Phillies which should have made the compensation even better in Phillies direction. I think he is completely redundant to Nix. I understand he might be underrated playing in SF. But since he is an arb guy, if he gets good the Phillies will have to pay plenty for him. Joseph does not make any Top100 lists, and has not demonstrated any power this season. Rosin seems like a nice throw-in piece, like so many young pitchers.

    And we traded a controlled Pence to SF who last season trade a Top25 prospect for 2 months (and no draft pick return) of Beltran. I was all for trading Pence to get a Top prospect and some high upside pieces. If SF wanted to toss Schierholtz in for nothing to get rid of him, I’d be okay with that.

    Combined with the utter disaster of the Pence trade last year, makes it even more painful. Last year the Phillies needed a 3B at the deadline and they still do. Mayberry hit as good as Pence at the end of last season anyway. Cosart I figured was a sell high play. He might end up a reliever. Singleton I loved. I thought he could stick in LF (badly) and would be a classic 3-hole hitter. Just so advanced at the plate. Power might not be there but still 10-15 HR with high OBP and cost controlled is great. Zeid had some upside possibility so another good sell candidate. Santana as PTBNL just made the trade an absolute joke. I did not think Santana will make it. But age means SO much in the prospect world. He has tremendous upside value and would for the next couple years. Maybe he never becomes a B+ prospect but his value should be enough to be a key piece of a deal, NOT at PTBNL. I could at least understand if Phillies gave up Castro as the PTBNL since he was going to be eligible for Rule5 anyway. His value in that case was actually quite low. But Santana. OMG.

    BTW: Liked the Victorino trade. No value to Phillies. May be able to sign him in off-season ‘on the cheap’ (3yr-21M?). Did not want to offer $12.5M for the pick. Got MLB 8th inning reliever and hard throwing SP. AND did not eat any salary. Great job here.

    Why is Blanton still on the team? Especially after the Pence deal, eat the money and get something back. Blanton had a few good starts in a row. His value will not be any higher. Many teams still in the hunt now. Post waiver means Phillies eat the salary anyway, fewer teams looking, and he has to clear waivers. Much less likely to get a decent prospect. Cards trade Cox for an ‘eh’ guy. Blanton could not have gotten something?

    Pierre? Get anything for him. He’s cheap. He’s a great clubhouse guy. He can still play. I have no idea what the Reds were offering but I doubt I care. Pierre should not make the team next year anyway. From the Reds perspective, I do not know why they did not raise their offer. Pierre is a great fit for them. Mostly young team, needs leadoff guy. He’d be more useful in CF for them since Ludwick is playing better but still think he would help that lineup and clubhouse.

    Wigginton? If Yankees were willing to eat his salary, I’d take it. I tell them I don’t even want Qualls. He is certainly better than McGee.

    To bad Polanco on the DL. I’d have taken salary relief for him as well. If Orioles offered anything I’d have taken that too.

    Like

    1. I wonder what scouts are saying about Santana now. He’s near the top 5 in the Cal League in OPS as a 19 year old. Everybody in front of him is at least 2 years older and most are 3 years older.

      Like

      1. That hurts, please let’s never speak of Domingo Santana and his gaudy west coast statistics again.

        Like

    2. So you don’t like Tommy Joseph much. Why is that? I think he’s a pretty good prospect. Do you really not think he will make the top-100 lists after this year? I think he will. I think he’s one of our top 2 prospects right now.

      Forget about the trade last year. Pence was a significantly more valuable commodity (in the midst of a career year, with an additional year of arbitration), and we overpaid for him anyway.

      Like

    1. I think Amaro did OK, the other GMs are looking at the last place Phillies with a 178 Million payroll and saying “they have to get rid of salaries”. It doesn’t matter what was paid for pence last year, that was last year

      Like

      1. Good post as the CBA changed everything in how high payroll teams operate. I am optimistic that the Philles are younger and made some moves unlike the Red Sox this summer.

        Like

  58. Cesar Hernandez to LHV, according to Twitter, along with Valle as previously reported. I like the move. I see Hernandez getting an invite to spring training with an outside chance of sticking as a utility guy, a la Galvis this year. Speaking of which, do we have any idea how serious Galvis’ type of injury is? I realize he’s technically not a prospect, but… there’s a good chance he’ll be starting the season in LHV next year, turning double plays with Hernandez.

    Like

    1. I think the Phils have said Galvis won’t play again this year. I don’t know what the implications are for next season and beyond.

      I also like the Hernandez to AAA move. He had a little baby slump but seems to have pulled out of it the last few games. Hopefully Ruf isn’t far behind.

      Like

  59. I have long viewed Darin Ruf as a non-prospect, and more as a high quality org bat. But at this point, when you combine his stellar AA season with the Phillies recent efforts to increase his time in LF, I am not sure what better circumstances there are to get him some MLB playing time. Maybe they think it is still too early for him. But even if he was Bill the Butcher in LF, it doesn’t really matter this season.

    Quite frankly, at this point I would prefer to see all the young guys have great personal success but the team lose more than it wins. Reload the farm system with a draft they are picking in the top of every round instead of the bottom and get ready for the 2013 season. Getting as many young players MLB experience would seem a good way to get an early preview of what they can or can’t do.

    Like

    1. I think Ruf goes to the AFL this offseason to continue and work on LF. If he shows he can handle it, I think he has a legitimate shot to make the roster out of spring training.

      Like

      1. If Darin Ruf makes the Phillies out of spring training next year, I will personally deliver a check for eleventy billion dollars to every Anonymous poster on this site.

        Like

        1. Well I quantified the post with a several “if’s” — and needing to both get selected to the AFL and, more importantly, show that he can play LF aren’t exactly givens.

          I don’t even have him in my midseason top 30, so I’m not one of those people that think he is a top prospect, but his bat would likely play as a corner OF, and he could fill a role similar to Wigginton this year — backup 1B/additional defensive position.

          Though, now that I really took the time to do more research, Mayberry still isn’t arb eligible for another year, and I’d imagine he would be the main competition for Ruf, assuming we brought in a true CF over the offseason.

          Like

          1. There’s just not a track record for this organization bringing kids up to be bench players. If Ruf wasn’t a candidate to play when Howard was out this year, I don’t see what would make him one for the team next season.

            The value of Wiggy (if you can call it that) is that he “plays” third base. You might argue that Ruf could do just as well there, but those roles go to veterans because the team likes veterans.

            Like the Rizz before him, Ruf is a guy with a good-but-not-good-enough bat.

            Like

            1. Ruf I see as a Chris Richard type. A guy you really want at AAA, who in case of injury can come up, play and not kill you for 2-4 weeks.

              Like

        3. Great now you generated a new crop of Anonymoi.
          I just would like to see guys have a chance Ruf,Cisco etc. Not just written off.

          Like

  60. I Too hate the pence trade,but also as stated before hate his defense. One propect we never mention that we gave up is villiar, i have never seen him play,dont know about his defense but he is young and showing some power at double a, he might be better player than santana and cozart, when all things are done.

    Like

  61. I generally respect most opinions on here, but those who are for the Vic trade but against the Pence trade (I’m for both) can you, outside of gaudy statistics like RBIs, seriously explain to me what Hunter Pence brought to this team? How many times this guy left guys on base, took wrong routes on fly balls, made mental errors in the field and at the plate, left a guy on 3rd with less than two outs, etc. The eye test, to me, means more than meaningless statistics that fill up the box score. We gave Houston a package that should have netted a Carlos Gonzalez type player, but does that mean we shouldn’t try to get something for him? We got a Top prospect and gave up 2-3 Top prospects, oh well. Move on. “Let’s Eat!” Good riddance Pence.

    Like

  62. I was just mention villiar not who we traded him for. i just think he has a chance with his power and postion. if he is a good fielder which i dont know,I never have seen him play. just another prospect who could make the majors, for a overrated,washed up pitcher in oswalt and a imo overated outfieler in pence.still say we get a bag of donuts, but give away cake boss cakes. look at texas no panic and get a good starter for two low level prospect. the gm of texas is really doing a nice job, he can let hamilton walk and has guys to fill in or trade for with his farm system, joe jordan was mention, was on baltimore web site, the people on there are really saying the orioles draft have been bad considering where they drafted.. was jordan aa big part of that??

    Like

    1. I keep my eye on Villar. He’s in AA with Houston. He’s hitting .261/.336/396 with a .732 OPS. He averages better than a K a game but does take a BB. He has 11 HRs and 50 RBIs in the Texas League. I don’t know much about the type of league this is so I can’t match it to the Eastern League. People thought he’d be a good fielder but so far, I wouldn’t call it that. He had 36 errors between A+ and AA last year. He has 24 so far this year in 85 games. He’s a SS and hasn’t played any other position since the DSL. He was BA’s #94 prospect in 2011. He was also rated the ‘Stros # 4 prospect after Singleton, Cosart and Springer. He turned 21 in May so I’d call him very promising but he has to control the Errors a bit.

      Like

  63. Texas gave up a top 100 prospect for a 2 month rental of an over-performing average”ish” pitcher.

    Like

    1. In who’s ranking was either of the players Texas gave up top 100? The only rankings I can find on either of them is Villanueva being ranked 10th in the Rangers system.

      Like

      1. Cubs acquired 3B Christian Villanueva and RHP Kyle Hendricks from the Rangers for RHP Ryan Dempster.
        Baseball America rated Villanueva as the game’s 100th best prospect prior to this season. The 21-year-old Guadalajara, Mexico native is a career .286/.350/.438 hitter over four seasons on the farm. He’s currently at the High-A level and is a few years away from the bigs.

        Like

          1. NP was just pointing out for Roccum that Texas DID give up quality..He tends to lack on the side of reasearching before posting.

            Like

  64. One double aa prospect who isnt top 100 for one of the hottest pitcher in baseball.is that wrong?? a differnce maker.

    Like

    1. Dempster trade to Texas was a question of leverage. Remember that Atlanta had agreed to give up a very highly touted pitcher in Delgado but Dempster killed the trade.

      Texas was fortunate enough to be at the right place at the right time to pick up a guy who was severely limiting the Cubs options on where he could be dealt.

      Like

      1. On different subject, Amaro said yesterday that they had put in wavier claims on outfielders, he wanted to improve outfield. That they were too right handed. And trading Blanton gives them money under the luxury tax level for this year. So I am thinking even though he is going to be a free agent that the Phils claimed somebody like BJ Upton, with the idea of auditioning for a longer stay with the club past this year

        Like

        1. Ed Wade’s comments in the paper today were interesting about Pence’s tendency to press even when he was in the Houston minor league system. We saw alot of that earlier this year, last year with everything going good it didn’t show

          Like

Comments are closed.