General Discussion – Week of 7-30-2012

Weekly Discussion

So maybe Dom Brown will be in left field for my visit to Nats’ Park on Tuesday. If he is, I’ll yell questions at him all night.  Let me know what you want me to ask.  I can get very loud, so who knows, maybe he’ll answer.  Or I’ll be asked to leave.

336 thoughts on “General Discussion – Week of 7-30-2012”

  1. Any chance Detroit wants Lee? They could use a good playoff pitcher behind Verlander. For Nick Castellanos?

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  2. Any chance Detroit gets Lee? They could use another ace behind Verlander. Maybe get Nick Castellanos back?

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      1. I would say this to anybody who accidentally has a post come through as anonymous, Unless it is a gem of wisdom you absolutely want to get credit for, just let it go through as anonymous, or in lieu of that just put : “That was (your name here) above” or something. (Note: Sometimes if you type something and it does not instantly appear, wait awhile and come back, it will be there). Or, conversely, if you decide to let it go through as anonymous, and it turns out to be goofy, it fill fit in with a lot of other people who regularly post as “anonymous”.

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      1. Max – I doubt that means little. They just lost two in a row to the Braves. Trust me, anything is on the table in spite of what you may have read

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  4. I hope he has learned how to play the outfield…. atleast a little bit better, ask dom how his defense is coming along

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    1. He’s been watching tapes of Pence, Burrell, and Ibanez so I’m sure he’ll be fine. Btw the horse isn’t quite dead yet, beat him some more….

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    2. He’s been watching tapes of Pence, Burrell and Ibanez so he’ll be fine. Btw the horse isn’t quite dead yet, you should keep beating him.

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  5. This Rangers blog proposes
    Leonys Martin, Mike Olt, Martin Perez, Michael Kirkman and Luke Jackson
    for
    Hunter Pence and Cliff Lee

    Two Premium Players to Go Please


    What do you think?

    Its a decent offer, with three top prospects and a promising arm in Jackson but I’d ask for Odor or Hanser Alberto…Or try to sell them on Vic instead of Pence.

    The Giants are rumored to be interested in Pence and Victorino. Could we use Brandon Belt?
    I’d swap Vic for Joe Panik

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    1. I would take that Rangers’s deal in a heartbeat. Solves as many problems as it causes but at a fraction of the cost.

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    2. Yeah, those Ranger blog guys should be running the team, from the Philly interests perspective. And you want it improved. The second deal is “middlin’ ” all right.

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    3. Prospects are great but most of them, even the Top5 guys, do not become All-Stars. Olt’s stats are great and he looks like he can field at 3B but there is no guarantee he is a quality starter. Likewise with Martin, who might be overvalued due to his high international profile. Perez is still young but struggling, could either be good time to ‘buy low’ or be a sign of his ceiling.
      These prospects do fill needs with good value. But the main value is off loading salary which would likely need to be used to fill the holes created. Unless Perez is a #2 type starter and Olt slots into #5 in the batting order the Phillies will still have some major holes in better the Nationals for the NL next year. Longer term, it could make sense as a declining Lee and Pence would not help 3 years from now.

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      2. Hey guys- just want to say thanks- I am not doing my blog to get a lot of hits, really just blow off steam about the Rangers and my trade idea adding to your discussion made my day. By the way I think all of our potential deals are being killed by teams insisting on Profar. Sorry about the Phils this season. I don’t check you guys every day like I do the Rangers but it sure doesn’t make sense to me. Hang in there.

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    5. I think for Pence and Lee, I’d ask for a little more. Maybe throw a Schneppers in there. I’d want 3 top 10 prospects

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  6. Whats the problem with Dom Brown?? Am I the only one who watched that dreck last night vs Mike “Bleepin” Minor? The big club is done this year and Ruben has to retool the offense before he gets fired. Chase Utley has been injured for the last 5 years and everyone still loves him. Why not give Dom Brown a chance in LF? After watching Pence in RF this year, please do not say “Browns defense will hurt you too much”. After such a terrible effort in Atlanta last night, Id trade Victorino for an arm today and have Dom in the lineup Tuesday.
    Can someone even explain the hate for Dom Brown?? You can think a player just isnt going to be very good, but why do Phillies fans continually trash him? Compared to other players at 22-23 hes actually performed adequately when with the big club, while in the middle of playoff races. Am I missing an attitude issue or a complete lack of effort? I dont know what hes going to become but I dont get the complete hate for the guy from many fans. With payroll constraints I dont think the Phils have another option than Brown and May platooning in LF next year

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    1. There’s plenty of us Dom lovers also. He’ll be starting for the Phil’s soon and Cloyd will make his next start for us too.

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    2. Most of Dom’s haters are probably not people who follow the minor leagues very much. When they heard he was one of the top prospects in baseball they expected it to translate to the majors immediately. In the minds of many, he had his chance in the majors and failed, and that’s that. Most of us here know better than to write him off now.

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          1. of course I am making a joke about racists. and I’m not saying that everyone who is critical of Brown is a racist, but if you haven’t heard that strangely vocal contingent, you must not get out that often.

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  7. Hunter Pence to ‘Frisco for Gary Brown and 2nd baseman Joe Panik, Dom to LF and Mayberry to RF. Vic gets qual offer in Nov for $12.5M for draft comp.

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  8. Imo any deal for lee with the rangers starts with profar or you dont do it, sorry lee is a proven ace, not even ott for him is worth us giving him up. if the rangers want a ace who is locked up for 5 years, then you start with profar , he is a lot better prospect than ott and to get quality you give up quality,

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    1. Then the deal won’t happen. Profar is not moving. Also, Lee is paid a ton and isn’t a spring chicken. Start with Olt and ask for quality after that

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      2. I hope you aren’t referring to the minor league catcher who has missed the last few weeks with a torn PCL. Knee injuries + catchers = bad mix

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  10. Today is likely “trading day” for RAJ. I expect Vic and Blanton to go today, I’m not sure they’ll get enough to move Pence. I keep hoping the Pirates will really want him and give us Marte and a pitcher for him. Marte in CF and Dom in RF would be interesting for me. Trade Joe for a minor league arm ready to be promoted.

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    1. Murray, if not today then definitely Monday will be the wrecking ball day. For the Phillies who will be traded thanks for the great memories and the World Series title.

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  11. RAJ really blew it when he didn’t get Cespedes. He would helped significantly and for along time.

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  13. So we could cut the phone lines at CBP and RAJ wouldn’t be able to make the Pence trade??? 😀

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    1. Pence is a likable guy. An even more likable baseball player. That doesn’t mean he’s the best fit for this team let alone the cost

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    2. The Pence trade in my mind is not the worse trade. If RAJ doesn’t make the Lee trade with Seattle the Philles don’t trade for Oswalt. The system would then have Villar, Gose (which make trading Victorino easy), and Happ (who likely would have been flipped that summer anyway for bullpen arm or something like that). That is the moment you can go back to. Oswalt was needed because Lee was gone and then last year he was out most of the year anyway. You likely could have taken the Oswalt package and used it minus Gose plus Cosart to get a RF bat to replace Werth and things would be looking much better.

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      1. People who keep saying this ignore the obvious fact that RA couldn’t afford both Lee and Halladay. He even had to get $6 mill back along with Halladay to keep to budget. He later added Oswalt, but also took back $, so that Oswalt did not add to that year’s fixed budget. It cost prospects, but that was the RA creative magic. He upgraded from Lee to Halladay, without busting a budget that he wasn’t allowed to exceed. So for that year, with a big WS push, we had Halladay for the full season instead and then Halladay plus Oswalt for the final push and the playoffs. That greatly upped Phillies chances that season.

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      2. Not to rehash the second Cliff Lee deal but I don’t think it was Amaro’s idea to make the trade but the Owners call. Ruben took the bullet for the ownership group in my opinion.

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        1. Ruben is a very creative GM when acquiring the superstars…lets see if he can be that creative whenever he has to move them out for future youth talent.

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          1. Don’t see it as creative anon. It’s not creative to throw money around, bidding against yourself. It’s not creative to give up 3-4 of your top 10 prospects EVERY YEAR so you can say you did something and bring in a “name”. That being said, this deadline and by extension this offseason, are very important for him.

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  14. The way I see it with the financial situation RE: luxury tax, Amaro has to move either Lee or Pence. You trade whichever one you can get the best return for relative to their value. If you can get good returns on both, trade both. Moving one of those contracts allows you to offer Victorino the $12 mill, one-year qualifying offer. Based on how he’s playing, and the rumored returns, it makes no sense to move him right now. Let him go in the offseason for the picks. Trade Blanton. Trade Pierre. Listen to offers on JRoll, and pray someone wants Papelbon. If Ruben plays this next week right, he could really set us up to be a strong team for the next few seasons, or really seal our fate as a post-iceberg Titanic.

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      1. I have a gut feeling that Ruben got lots of “help” getting Lee and Halladay. Remember, Gillick was still technically with the team as Ruben’s advisor for one year.

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  15. Hmm. BJ Upton possibly being traded. Rays want a minor league catcher and Pitcher. Im not suggesting Valle, but possibly May and someone else?

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    3. No reason for Phillies to get him now. Offseason Phillies could compare him to Victorino and see who takes the smaller deal.
      I think Victorino is the better player, and should be more valuable both now and in the near future. Not sure why offers for him are so low.
      However, Upton still holds that ‘upside’ label which will likely have someone overpay.

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        1. Nowheels…we all know you have your pet players. Remember Jeremy Barnes? You were convinced he was a future major league player too!

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            1. He was the one touting a D Brown for Jason Donald straight up deal @ the beginning of the season. Lovely…

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          2. I don’t remember saying anything about Barnes but all pitchers south of 2.00 ERA are my pets.Why do you think it is wrong to want a certain play to succeed ? Isn’t that what we do here?
            BTW Personal attacks aside you still haven’t addressed the question.

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            1. OK…two things that jump out to me very quickly with just a cursory look at the numbers…he doesn’t miss bats (not nearly enough strikeouts) and his BABIP is .245. Assuming normal luck, his ERA would be in the 3.6 range. There is nothing about this guy that screams anything special. Haven’t we seen enough pitchers that we all loved get called up to the Phillies and get shelled to realize that pitching in the major leagues is really hard?

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    1. Jim Salisbury ‏@JSalisburyCSN
      Manuel said he’s just giving Pence a rest. Phils have set high price for him. Vic, Pierre seem more likely to be dealt. #Philliestalk

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    1. The last three July 29ths have been moving days….but pharm hands leaving the org and MLB stars coming to Philly.

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  19. Due to financial constraints, here is what needs to happen:
    Pence must be moved to get his 10 million off the books. To pitt. For marte and lincoln

    Lee will have to go as well: to texas for olt, perez and martin.

    Call up brown and your outfield is set for next year. Bullpen is better with lincoln and 3b is set, plus you added a young arm with upside.

    Next, you trade polanco, victorino and blanton for whatever you can get back. You now have cleared over 50 million in payroll and have prospects for the near future.

    At the end of next year, utley and halladay go and you will have some flexibility with payroll.

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    2. 1) How do you know there is financial constraints?
      2) The other teams have to agree to the trades, you know?
      3) You’re assuming rookies will not struggle/will be able to stick at the major league level. That is a gamble worth taking sometimes, but you’d be filling at least 3 spots with rookies. That’s a huge risk.
      4) If you let Halladay and Utley walk, you then all of a sudden have two more huge holes to fill. We already saw what happens to our 2B situation without Utley, it isn’t pretty. And who do we have to replace Doc?

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      1. Jayson Stark’s alluded to the fact that the Phillies NEED to get under the luxury tax this year because it’s going to be impossible to be under it next year.

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        1. I believe moving Blanton and Vic would accomplish that. And I think he misunderstands what the word “need” is. While I’m absolutely positive the Phillies would PREFER to get under the tax this year, I’m also sure they could afford to go over it multiple years in a row, even with the steep penalty. The team makes a lot of money. The owners would prefer to keep that extra money, but they certainly don’t NEED to be under the tax.

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          1. Actually it is highly unlikely the team can afford to go over the luxury tax for multiple years without drastically lowering payroll therafter or dramatically lowering the team’s financial valuation (which the owners won’t allow to happen).

            As much as all of us baseball fans may love for the ownership group to spend what ever it takes to win, this simply is not the case for most franchises.Even for all their spending, the Yankees routinely make profits. With the exception of a few teams (like the Tigers, who have been outspending their revenue lately) baseball teams are run like rational business enterprises. Therefore, owners may absorb income lossess from time to time, but are unlikely to run income losses over a period of many years.

            Forbes annual franchise valuations suggest the Phillies actually had a 11.6 million dollar operating loss for the 2011 season. They are not likely to run these losses indefinately (e.g. at some point in the next couple of years the team will make sure revenues are exceeding total spending on baseball operations). This either occurs by increasing revenues, lowering payroll or a combination of the two. Given the that that Phillies are starting from a point of high popularity, ticket, and apparel sales it is unlikely they can expect large percentage income gains in these areas without fairly substantial price increases born by fans (which may or may not be possible). The team will get a fairly large bump in revenues when the TV deal can be reworked in a few years. But starting from a 2011 base period where the teams revenues are already below expenditures on baseball operations, even a substantial increase of 25 million dollars per year in additional TV revenue would suggest a long term ability to raise expenditures on baseball operations by only 13.4 million dollars (the 25 million dollar long term revenue increase – the existing 11.6 million dollar revenue shortfall).

            The issue with the luxury tax under the new CBA is that penalties are greater the more often it is exceeded. The penalty ranges from 17.5% for 1st time offenders and grows to 50% after four or more consecutive offenses. This means that if the Phillies chose to go over the tax this year they would pay the 17.5% tax on that portion of their payroll this year. This year that cost will be low. However, if they presumably couldn’t get under next year failing to get under this year, would increase the 2012 payroll costs. This would further put the team in a hole operating income wise.

            To have a shot at being profitable down the road, the team’s revenues would need to jump substantially to cover not only the payroll increases, but the increasing luxury tax payments and the already existing baseline gap between revenues and total baseball expenditures (as evidence by the 2011 operating loss). Therefore, even a fairly large 25 million dollar a year increase in TV revenues would not support a large increase in the team’s ability to raise total expenditures on payroll/luxury tax payments

            For example: 25 million increase in TV revenue – 11.6 million dollars the team utilizes to return the team to at least breaking even = 13.4 million dollars remaining. As I pointed out long term the team will need to at least break even. In this case, the team wouldn’t increase the payroll by more than 13.4 million long term. If we assume the Phillies keep on spending near the luxury tax in the future (which the propossed revenue increase would allow them to do) then the 13.4 million dollars is alot less useful as it must cover the new player salary and luxury tax payments (which by year three would be nearing 50% of over the tax payroll). Furthermore, at some point the owners are going to want to turn profits, meaning the team starts to constrain spending relative to revenue growth. This would only further constrain future payroll options and hurt the ability to optimize the teams long-run ability to be routinely competitive.

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          2. It’s a NEED.

            17% for a first time offender
            30% for a 2nd time offender.

            That’s a lot of money to waste on empty roster space.

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      2. It is over! Just deal with it.

        No team can pay 9 guys 150 million and win, no team! I know the young guys could struggle, no different than our current guys are struggling.
        FOR ANYONE WHO HAS NOT FIGURED IT OUT YET, this is a bad team! Bad offense, defense, relief pitching and starters. All aspects are bad right now, break it up and get some youth

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        1. Or it’s a good team having a bad year. One (partial) season does not determine whether a player, or even a team of players, is good or bad.

          And I don’t think anybody is denying that this is a lost season.

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            1. You can read right? I didn’t say the Phillies were the Yankees. But, last time I checked the Yankees are a MLB team who pay 9 guys $150 mil. Oh….and they win.

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        1. That being said, I’d absolutely take him in a deal involving Victorino, but if Pence is involved it has to be Marte or no deal.

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    1. And lest i forget, the main culprit of this malaise, J-STROLL.
      What a huge mistake to bring him back. I said it then!
      RAJ had it pegged when he identified poor approach and got cold feet when it came to JSTROLL.
      Mr. Pop ups will not change his approach. He has a ring and got PAID. We need to reinvent the culture of this team and it begins with ss.

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      1. Calm down. Rollins has his weaknesses. But strengths outweigh them most of the time. Is he the ‘straw that stirs the drink’ now? Probably not. Will need to find another to fill that role. If Bourn is brought in next year, he becomes lead-off and JRoll may go to the ‘2’ slot.

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        1. Rollins is fine, he just needs to bat 7th, not 1st. I’d also talk about him dipping and uppercutting resulting in an endless string of infield popups but I’m sure GG and Charlie are all over that….

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        2. So, what’s the big plan of the cognoscenti on here. Sign Bourn, there goes all the spare salary for new people, plus the forfeiture of a draft pick. Then you add the LH hitter to D. Brown, the chosen in OF, plus they believe they are stuck with Utley and Howard. And , not knowing if others are on board, I see, Anon1, you called for the signing of Nick Swisher ,( maybe another big salary and another draft choice out), after the obligatory give-away of Pence of course. And though Swisher be a switch-hitter, he seems much more proficient from the LH side. So, that line-up has 4 LH hitters, a virtual LH hitter in Swisher, a Switch-Hitter in Rollins, Ruiz, and a minimum salary guy at 3B. That’s the plan, of others, as seen. Other teams will never figure out how to combat that line-up?

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            2. Of course he is. But, the plans of others seem to leave but room for a minimum salary guy at 3B. So, maybe , people should bring up the 3B they think they can get at the minimum salary. I figure only Rule 5 picks, minor league veterans , former MLB types who will sign minor league contracts, guys from the minors. I don’t figure they should risk trying Asche or some other promising Milb guy they have so soon. I am disinclined to bring in Milb veterans or former MLB players on minor league deals. As i said on the original post, I am all for bring in a Rule 5 pick or two to compete for 3B and maybe other spots. So , the Rule 5 pick plus…. that leaves minor leaguers who have some experience, but not yet quite, minor league veterans. Somebody like….. Kennelly.

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            3. I was making a joke again, because of the report yesterday that you might not have seen — Kennelly is being converted into a pitcher.

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            5. Marfis, I give you credit for acknowledging the absurd implications of your arguments. The fact that even the sub-optimum internal options of Galvis or retaining polanco would be superior to your option speaks volumes.

              In the real world, it’s impossible to know for sure how the off season will shake out, there’s a lot of moving parts. But there’s likely to be at least a little money left on the table for an above minimum player at third. No one except you advocates filling the slot with a minimum salary player.

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          2. marfis…your memory serves you well, kudos…remembering my Swisher wish from last year. I think you are getting the jist of my logic. Of course, the rest of your line-up card you espoused that I would recommend hints on a bit of hyperbole

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            1. I did not think it was last year. I think I read it a few days ago on this thread. I wasn’t crediting all of the line-up to you, some of it is my perception of a sort-of summary of majority beliefs on here, with the Swisher part to you as a piece.

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          3. First of all Marfis, no one here thinks there is a magic wand for short term success. Even the best plans might not result in a contending team for the next couple of years. But it also would not result in a 100 loss season, which is what would happen if your “plan.” was adopted. And among the smarter people here there is a ton of disagreement. IMO, swisher and bourn are both guys they should look at, if and only if the price is right, which it may not be. That said, probably not both.

            Your continued hostility to a brown at this point is just bizarre. Fact is, given the current state of the team & financial constraints, it would be entirely irrational not to plug him in as a regular for the rest of this year and next year. There are just too many holes, and the top of the system too barren, not to take advantage of the fact that you have a guy who may be capable of filling one of those holes at a low price.

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          4. To be more specific, there were posts suggesting that swisher could be had for 3/27 and bourn for 4/50. I think that’s optimistic in both cases, but at those prices they would be good pick ups. Again, likely not both. If it’s closer to 3/36 and 5/75, then probably pass.

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            1. IMO, knowing Scott Boras, he will want to get Bourn for a 5/6 year length contract, and probably $15/16M per, whether or not any GM gives in, remains to be seen. Not sure, but I think Weaver’s contract with the Angels upset the MLB agent’s apple carts a bit.

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            2. I think I read he wants 100 million. Of course what he wants and what he’ll get are two different things.

              To be clear, while fairly confident in expressing opinions about what kind of contract a player is worth, I have little confidence in predicting what a player will get. It does seem to me though that 3/27 for swisher is lower than what other comparable players have been getting. Bourn is even harder to predict, having as he does a fairly unique skill set.

              The line between a guy that gets, say, 3/30 and a guy who gets a one year deal for less than 10 million sometimes seems a thin one. I guess it depends a lot upon who else is out there.

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            3. Apparently Josh Hamilton will be the biggest positional player out there, dollar-wise, and after he decides where to go, the others will follow.

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      2. Charlie Hustle, just go and jump off the Walt Whitman already and spare the rest of us your nonsense. Every great player doesn’t have to play like Pete Rose or Chase Utley. you are a frigging knucklehead. watch some game tape of Steve Jeltz until you recognize the depth of your misperception.

        +1 to anon1 and buddy biancala

        The only place Rollins could arguably be moved is to 3rd base, if Galvis can lay off the ‘roids for a minute or two.

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  21. At the R Phillies tonight. Hollands pitching. Will report back later. Shout me out on phuture phillies if you are here too.

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  23. Did the FO miss on this guy or is it just a one year wonder….
    3) How long can Quintin Berry keep up this pace? The rookie leftfielder has driven in at least one run in 17 games this season. The Tigers are 13-4 in those games. His latest big outing came Wednesday when he went 3-for-4 with two RBIs in a victory. It was his 11th multihit outing in 55 games. “All Berry has to do is stay within himself and not try to be one of the big guys,” manager Jim Leyland told MLB.com.

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    1. There was no reason to suggest that at 26-27 years old, he would suddenly learn how to hit. Despite his strong play, he’s still primarily a 4th/5th OF.

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      2. Matter of fact, members of the brain trust on here, stated , in effect, he would never amount to anything. And that was understandable, didn’t disagree. I believe Detroit got him through the Rule 5 draft. Not in the Major League portion, not in the AAA phase of the minor league portion, but in the AA phase of the minor league portion. So, his former team, (the Mets as i recall) did not protect him on the MLB, AAA, or AA rosters.

        So, when , the authorities on here state that players who were exposed in the minor league portion of the Rule 5 draft (e.g. Friend) can never appear on an MLB roster, maybe they don’t know the everything they think they know.

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        1. Nobody would ever say that a player exposed to a rule 5 draft would never make the majors — the major stipulation of the rule 5 draft is that the player MUST stay in the majors.

          We shouldn’t overreact on Berry, because while this is the best he’s ever played, its still production of a 4th OF.

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          1. I was talking about the minor league portion of the Rule 5 draft, in which a player is not protected on the team’s big AAA and sometimes AA rosters, where the player can be placed anywhere in the acquiring team’s minor league system. (Philly guys in past: Neil Sellers, Justin Friend)

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            1. Noted. It is usually unwise for anyone to put a “never play in the majors” tag on anyone.

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            2. marfis…you know transactions well,,,didn’t we lose a low A guy to the Cubs this year in the Rule 5 draft?

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            4. General speaking, what people can and do say about players like that is that they will never have sustained major league success. Almost anyone who doesn’t quit can eventually, through being in the right place at the right time, get a shot at some playing time. And then get hot when that chance arrives. Rarely if ever is that sustained for a guy like berry. Even his success comes about once every 5 years.

              But yes, saying absolutely that someone will never play in the majors is unwise. Even (cough) a guy like Hewitt could get a cup of coffee, unlikely as that seems.

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  24. Kennelly should be ready to relieve this week. He has had 4 bp sessions. Giles to Clw. He looked ready when I saw him at Lkw.

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  25. Anyone remember Carlos Rivero? He is batting over .300 with 7 hrs in the Nationals AAA team right now. I could honestly say that I’d love to have him as our starting third baseman right about now.

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    1. I don’t really remember anything about his defense, but offensively I doubt he’s any better than Wigginton. It’d be nice to still have him in the system though.

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  26. SF TV station reporting Giants have deal in place for Pence, pending ownership approval. What can we expect in return?

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    1. The deal has to be centered around Gary Brown or Kyle Crick, I would hope that they pried away Belt (for LF) and hopefully one of Susac or Joseph. It really has to be a haul to make me feel like a Pence deal is worth it. The Giants don’t have a ton on the farm so if this rumor is true it will be interesting to see what is in the deal.

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  27. Yes, BJ, I remember Carlos. Anyone know how he ended up with the Nats? I was just thinking about him tonight wondering where he’d gone while looking at Franco’s stats.

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    1. He wasn’t protected on the 40-man, so the Nats claimed him off waivers (which is how we got him from the Indians, incidentally). I seriously doubt two major league teams missed something in him and let him slip away, the Nats, I’m sure, just wanted him for organizational depth. I’m glad he’s doing well, but I seriously doubt he’s anything more than AAAA at this point. Plus, he’s kind of blocked in Washington.

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    2. He did have some defensive shortcomings, but then again, looking at Ty Wiggy and Carlos looks like a Gold Glover.

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  28. Best news so far this morning is the likely hood of Shields and Choo staying put. Particularly Choo who has comparables in Pence and Vic. Getting excited. Here’s our chance to retool the system and even if we aren’t getting a Top20 prospect, we should certainly see some quality returns. Add Blanton and Pierre to the watch list as well.

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  29. Did anyone hear K Law talking about T Cloyd during a Baseball Today podcast about a week ago? He seemed less than convinced that Cloyd could step in an be a #5, instead comparing him to KK as a bullpen/ #6 starter piece.

    I was kinda holding out hope that Cloyd would be next year’s #5 and give us some payroll relief.

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    1. I’ve seen him on Milb.com several times, and I have my doubts as well. However, I think Pettibone could provide an option for 5th starter, despite me not being all that high on him either.

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      1. I’m on board with Pettibone, however do you think he’s is an option for next season though? He’s only 22 and although pitching well, still in AA. Isn’t he geared for a start in AAA in 2013?

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        1. I’d imagine the final month of the season, the offseason, and spring training will decide that. As a reminder, KK (and others) have gone from AA to the majors with little, or no, AAA time.

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          1. Very true. Guess I’m holding out hope that Pettibone has a higher upside than KK.

            In the end, it would be really nice to replace Blanton in the rotation with a $440K salary as opposed to a $5 million salary.

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        2. Pettibone has his first AAA start this week Rick. Provided the Phillies are in ‘look-see’ mode in late September, I don’t think it’s out of the question for Pettibone to get a start or two down the stretch. First things first. He pitches for the ‘Pigs tonight

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    2. So, now that Keith Law has laid down the law, all hope is dashed. Actually , suspect that Keith Law will be right on this count, Nobody said Cloyd has superior stuff, and the now deposed PP stated it was substandard . Would not be the first guy without plus stuff to be bombed out of the MLB quickly. Likely is the middlin’ results Law posits.
      And , fact is, unless another team takes on the salary of Kendrick, Philly is paying him anyway. So, if the 5th starter/long reliever role is filled by Kendrick and Cloyd, money-wise it doesn’t matter which is which.

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      1. Marfis, I posed a simple question asking for some feedback – try for once not to be a complete @#$% a$$@#$%. Please.

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    3. KLaw said Worley was a mid reliever all the way up to spring trainer… granted Worley hasnt been great, but come on.

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      1. Again – I wasn’t subscribing to KLaw’s evaluation of Cloyd, I was simply asking for some feedback on his ceiling/ 2013 potential.

        And using Worley to bolster your point probably did just the opposite, FWIW.

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  30. Buddy Biancalana, please don’t tell me Jimmy Poppins is ok as long as he bats 7th. Bat him 7th and see what that does to his ego!!!!! That ain’t happening.

    Part of the issue is the guy doesn’t want to be told what to do. He hasn’t hit a ball to the opposite field in ages. He wants to hit home runs and the fallout is the POP UPS. Do you not think he has been told to hit the ball to the whole field?

    I don’t argue that he has some positives. What you are missing is that he has been on his own program here for years and prior to wining a WS and getting paid, he was a bit more tolerable, as he was a better player then. He is not the same guy and we cannot take his baggage at this point.

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    1. I have gone from a huge Rollins fan to being very disappointed in him as a leader and not fulfilling his potential and what this team needs from him. You should try understanding the sarcasm in my post above for one thing. Having said that, the fact remains he is a gold glove caliber SS, or at least very close to it. On top of that, while his numbers look rathe pedestrian offensively, they are above avg for his position this year. But because of his desire to hit home runs and pull everything, he really hurts this team as a leadoff hitter, IMO. I tend to believe this team has some very good leadoff options going into next year either via free agency or internal, including Dom Brown and Chase Utley.

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    2. Though contrasting of opinions of Rollins are common, I think it’s fair to say that he’s one of the most appropriately paid players on the team right now. Wishing he was something he’s not is not a fresh topic by any means. Still, his contract is just about right. Bigger fish to fry in my opinion

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      1. Missed Buddy’s sarcasm, but understand his contract value and defensive ability. But, I believe you underestimate the negative influence he is in the locker room. I liken him to Bobby Abreu at this point and here is why; this has been his locker room for a long time. The other guys are not going to address his lack of effort and lack of approach. So, as long as he is there, no other guys are going to step on his toes. Why should Victorino or Pence change their approach when Jimmy Poppins ain’t gonna change his??

        And for another fish, the manager has done NOTHING this year except cry “Woe is me”. How about getting into a guy’s grille at some point when they don’t give you what you want?????

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        1. More half-truths. I’ll be the first to acknowledge that the bunch of spoiled dogs that were the early Aught Phillies infected Rollins’ psyche (“front-runners” anyone?). The problem with your narrative is that it isn’t accurate. You can’t win with Rollins as a team leader? What? Have you been in a coma since 2006? If so you wouldn’t have missed many errors, that is for sure.

          Yeah, it is frustrating to watch Rollins approach at the plate. Yeah, it is frustrating that he doesn’t force infielders to at least make an honest effort to get the ball over to first base. No what else was frustrating? Having an out-of-position Mike Fontenot let a Ben Sheets dribbler roll through his legs. Watching Ty Wigginton drop a frigging pop up. You want to move that problem to shortstop as well? And how many putouts and assists will Rollins make while he is on the DL with a pulled hammy from racing down the first base line as you’d like him to do?

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        2. So you must be there in the locker room every day to have an opinion such as that. Not just a sportswriter, who is only in there when the players are in guard, but a team employee. While it is great to get some inside information on this board, aren’t you worried about getting fired?

          On a more serious note, you are a vile ignorant piece of you know what. Please stop posting and Spend more time with your sister/wife.

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    3. The solution is clear. Trade Rollins to the American League where he will be valued for his fielding and they can use the designated hitter to bat for him instead of the pitcher. (Do I have to state that this is tongue-in-cheek?)

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  31. The moves that Rueben needs to make,and does make to improve this team,at this trading deadline will define him as a general manager.Obviously,the owners have to approve everything that he does as well,which they did prior to this.The past few years at the trading deadline, even for us was like a child in a candy store,we could almost have what we wanted,(it only cost us prospects) but remember we were all in to win the world series that year.(didn’t happen and the cost was great) Now with all these old players and their large contracts,the future looks bleak,especially with how good the nationals appear to be.

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    1. Strong opening line, and I agree. The next 36 hours no doubt his biggest test as a GM

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  32. Don’t see where anybody mentioned the Hunter Pence rumor from the TV station in San Francisco saying Giants have acquired Pence. Team VP has denied it.. Catcher Tommy Joseph reportedly part of the deal. Don’t know whether to out and out disbelieve or maybe to consider it as a small rumble of a maybe. Status of this Unknown.

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    1. Buddy first reported it above (just after midnight). I heard the same report but no confirmation of any other sources as yet

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      1. Yeah, just went up there and seen that. Guess you must read the whole thread, beforehand. Like to see something, don’t know about removing Pence. Thought some of the original ideas were to get younger from the core, with a RH hitter w/ power. What changes that without Pence.

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  33. Starting to hear the words Lee and Olt used in the same sentence this morning. I wouldn’t be opposed depending on full details

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  34. I am listening to the rumors for pence and lee. The phillies wanted a catcher from frisco,confuses me unless they plan on moving valle in a trade, with valle and rupp, and the young kid we just got, why go for a catcher unless you moving one, we need a young thirdbasemen.to some of the rumors its nuts, blanton, a two hundred inning starter for a relief pitcher ? i rather offer him arb if possible and get a draft, choice. Interesting we trade top prospect for players, and other teams offer us junk for victorino or blanton, and pence, find it kind off strange.If we are moving lee then we need to get top talent back, lee is still a ace , i know its a down year but he still has a lot left,he has had other streaks like this, and came back.I would pit texas against the angels, and yankees and detroit for lee, see who cracks first and let us get a top deal, being afraid he goes to there rival,if amaro is smart he should do that, force texas to deal top prospect profar for lee goes to there rival.

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    1. Only problem with that Logic is the Angels have Greinke so they are out and the Tigers made a small move to sure up their pitching and only thing they have left is Castellano’s and they ain’t giving him to us for Lee unless you offer to pay most of Lee’s remaining figure even then I don’t think they do it.

      For me Olt was the guy but I don’t see that we have any leverage to get him.

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      1. The leverage = Rangers competion got better, while they sent an arm to the D/L. Wanting to win a WS = leverage.

        I’m not an advocate of trading Lee. But if we do, we’d need Olt and at least Martin. If they don’t meet that price, we just walk away.

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          1. I’m fine with that I just don’t see the Rangers doing it unless we pick up a major portion of the remaining salary. I don’t see the Phillies willing to do that. And if they did you leave the rotation very weak behind Hamels.

            Doc is not the same guy and I don’t think he is bouncing back to his former self. This is a pickle.

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  35. Should Pence go to the Gints, we should get back some pitching. SF has built its team via pitching and thus they seem to find and develop pitchers well.

    Pitching plus some hitting should result from any Pence trade.

    Waiting for trades happening today/tonight?

    Get ‘er done!

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    1. Can’t wait to see that only a year after being fleeced in the Pence trade how we’re going to get pennies on the dollar when dealing him. Sad….

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      1. Wow…bashing Amaro for making a trade that hasn’t even happened yet. I wonder why I even poke around the General Discussion thread sometimes.

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      2. Rick, don’t you think that Pat Gillick is brought in for these times? I hope you have a better outlook on life than your comments. Give Amaro a chance before you criticize him.

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  36. i am going to be busy the next few hours and am happy about that as the waiting is killing me. I read online that the Phils may be buyers and sellers with Pence, Lee, Vic, Blanton, et al going. Returning in some fashion of swapping prospects that are brought in via trades or current prospects in the system; Choo, maybe Headley, Maybe Olt, etc.
    This is the dream situation for me. I have been steadfast in saying RELOAD. Shake it up and bring back some big league pieces and/or near ready pieces. This next 36 hours will clearly define Amaro, huge for him and the franchise.

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    1. Done for me. Young potentially very good 3 or 4 rotational arm who a few years ago was untouchable, in a trade that is, not so much on the mound..

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    3. I don’t see this anywhere, and I follow him on twitter. But I guess if your going to go after the player with the worst pitching performance since 1901, he might as well have a high upside.

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      1. Unless I’m following the wrong Heyman again:

        AL source says #Phillies Joe Blanton heading to #Orioles. Brian Matusz is name being mentioned in return. Phillies shedding salary, and lbs

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    4. “Matusz has a host of other associated stats that make him look terrible, but perhaps the most telling is his OPS+ against. Opposing hitters posted an OPS+ of 204 against him; no hitter has posted a full season OPS+ of 200 or greater since Barry Bonds did it in 2004. Matusz turned every opposing hitter into Bonds circa 1993.”

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        1. Oh, I’d certainly take him for Blanton — but that quoted section is rather hilarious to me.

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        1. Plus Joe Jordan knows him as well as anyone. Wow…we are becoming Oriole North. Break out the crabcakes!

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            3. Guys, while I don’t necessarily agree with his viewpoint, correlation does not imply causation. Hamels could have gotten better naturally on his own, or he could have picked up things from Halladay and Lee (which I also believe happened).

              That being said, pitchers usually rack the brain of anyone with knowledge to get better, which includes their coaches. I certainly think Dubee had something to do with Hamels’ improvement.

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  38. i like crabcakes!!

    Creativity is the key here. Anonymous has it pegged; think about flipping some guys. We need to think outside the box and acquire pieces to get the pieces we need.
    We clearly need 3b, 2 outfielders, bullpen arms and maybe a young middle infielder. Let’s say Texas won’t give you Olt. Do you take Ogando or Feliz plus Martin and Perez and then go after Headley. I love his OPS. Texas has the bullpen arms we really need.

    Saw Brennamen is shaving his head for the win streak. Since I am follicly challenged, what can I do if RAJ ships Jimmy Poppins? I will piggyback him to his new destination all the while listening to his CD on my headphones. Is that sufficient sacrifice?

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    1. So you think if Texas won’t bite on Olt for (presumably) Lee, they’ll certainly trade a mjor league player (Ogando or Feliz) plus two of their other top prospects. And then you want us to flip these blue chip prospects, plus more, to get Headley, who I like but is no superstar.

      Also, since you gave no indication who you wanted to trade to Texas and I have to assume Lee (since he is the only one they would even consider giving a top package for), you basically want to trade an ace under contract for ~5 years for a couple prospects and, the kicker, bullpen arms. Because bullpen pieces are much harder to come across than starters, especially aces, am I right?

      Oh, and then you want to ditch one of the top SS in baseball who is currently on a reasonable contract when we have no one to take his place.

      You should certainly run a baseball team.

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      1. I’m fine with moving Pence for parts to get Headly. I’m significantly less fine with moving Lee for Headley. The only way I move Lee is for Olt and Martin or Perez. If Rangers don’t bite, we end up with one of the best starters in the game, and I can live with that.

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        1. I agree, in large part because it’s easier to find a good OFer than a good 3B. But a #1 SP is one of the rarest things in baseball, which is why they don’t get traded often and why they get so much money if they hit FA. Even if the Rangers gave us that package for Lee, though, I don’t think I’d like it. We’d be selling low on Lee. I think if we want to trade him, let him re-establish his value the rest of the season or next season.

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      2. Maybe Charlie Hustle, may mean, reading between the lines, that Cliff Lee who will be 35 in 2013, has seen his best years behind him. And now may be the best time, value wise, to move him. Remember what Branch Rickey use to say.

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        2. That’s not true either. His numbers have suffered this year through no fault of his own. I can see someone wanting to sell high on a player, but this would be selling low. As I said slightly above, if you’re going to trade him do it in the off-season or next season after he re-establishes his value.

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  39. Lets say he made hamels better. he killed all the rest bastardo stinks now. stutes and herdon have arm problems. worley is pitching worse than last year, the whole bullpen is a problem. so one for our great pitching coach dubee and about 8 he ruined. he couldnt help little leaguer let alone a major leaguer.

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    1. Worley pitching worse was to be expected. Did anyone even remotely foresee him pitching as well as he did last year? And even still, what’s so bad about his numbers now? Bastardo? Bullpen arms, except for the very elite, are a crapshoot. One year they’ll be great, the next year they’ll suck. Is he still striking out people? Check. Stutes and Herndon are indeed having arm troubles. I wonder if that might have been because they throw a baseball for a living. And as for the rest of the bullpen, a bunch of kids and Paps. He has changed nothing for Paps, I can guarantee that, and for the kids, who has he been coaching long enough to make any real changes in their approach/delivery, repertoire?

      Bottom line is, if Rich Dubee wanted to talk to me about pitching, I wouldn’t just listen, I would take notes. He knows more about pitching than you or I could ever hope to know.

      Also, if I could trade Bastardo and Worley for Hamels, I’d do it in a heartbeat any day of the week. Hell, throw in Stutes and Herndon, see if I care. So if you’re telling me he’s responsible for Hamels, but is also responsible for Bastardo and Worley and the others, then yes he is way ahead right now.

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      2. Dan, Vance Worley was pitching well until he got the chips in his elbow with a great ERA but has struggled lately.

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        1. I have absolutely no issues with Worley. He has completely blown away the expectations I had for him.

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    2. Roccom, where were you last year or the last five years? Can you say anything positive at all about the Phillies?

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  40. Plus the chemistry professor who decries JRol’s poisonous locker room presence thinks nothing of the effect of shipping Lee off on current players and future free agents. What was it Lee’s wife said to Amaro when they were about to resign him? “Don’t break our hearts again” I believe. I realize that this is in the end a business, and the athlete’s are professionals, etc., but sending Lee away unhappy could be very bad business indeed.

    Sorry to pick on you dude, but it is really a public service to those people who may not know enough to see through your Sophistry. You are kinda clever but pretty dumb.

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    1. If the idea is to be competitive in 2013, 2014 and 2015 and keep the fans coming in droves, then trading Cliff Lee is moronic. If they trade him and improve their hitting, next year they’ll be looking for, you guessed it, a starting pitcher – and there won’t be one around unless, of course, you trade all the young prospects again for a great pitcher. You know the type, a guy like Cliff Lee. Good morning, it’s Ground Hog Day.

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  41. I think we should Trade Lee and Bring up Morgan, Trade Blanton and bring up Cloyd, Rollins and bring up Quinn, Victorino and Bring up Brown, Pence and bring up Ruf and Polanco and bring up Asche. Just kidding, some people need to come down to earth with their proposals.

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        1. That info came from the Fake Rosenthal twitter account thats why it was pulled back down!

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    1. Not a chance in hell of the Orioles giving up Schoop for 2 months of Joe Blanton. Schoop is a Top 100 middle IF prospect.

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    2. Jon Mayo on Schoop:
      The Curacao native has shown the ability to play well all over the infield. Signed as a shortstop, he could play that premium position, but saw a lot of time at second and third in deference to first-round pick Manny Machado. Regardless of his position, he’s shown some offensive tools and should continue to hit for average with more power coming as he matures. He played alongside Machado quite a bit and seeing the pair together up the middle in Baltimore could be in the cards.

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  44. imo that dubee isn’t a very good pitching coach, its my opinion, if you think it dumb or disagree fine, its a opinion, i just havent seen the young guys improve under him thats all. The postive thing about the phillies that no one on here seems to get is they arent the old phillies. in the offseason they will spend to bring in what they need. Just not sure amaro is the right one to do it thats all. They have change there way of thinking so much in the last five years on winning. Amaro did a poor job imo in the offseason on finding replacement pieces for howard and relied on mayberry too much, mayberry isnt a starting outfielder, he is a good defensive player with some pop,good for 4 or 5 outfielder, we all saw qualls pitch last year, how could you sign him and think he would help? wiggington is a terrible defensive player, didnt he see that?? we never should have spend the money on paplebon, instead should have paid the money for three years for cuddydar, sorry cant spell his name. he would have help more than wiggington has or nix, even though nix has been hurt,Just think amaro jumps too fast sometimes for players. if he waited he could have signed madson for one year cheaper. i know he got hurt but it still was the smarter move. he never lets the market play out.and finally can anyone defend charlie handling of this team. very poor moves night after night. just seems lost now that he isnt getting the three run homers.

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  45. If Leo Mazzone was talking pitching, I’d take notes. If Dubee was talking pitching, I’m afraid I’d be asking a lot of questions that relate directly to the items Leo outlined in that lengthy piece in philly.com. I’d want to know how involved he is in what our guys are doing at the minor league level; why we take such a conservative approach to promoting guys and the like? I seriously doubt he (Rich) has been helpful to the development of Bastardo, Schwimmer, Savery, or DeFratus. Most of those guys seem to have backslid under him. Bastardo appears to have need Danys Baez more than Rich. I just don’t think he’s great, nor do I think he’s terrible. I do think he needs to really get with a serious long tossing program for everyone.

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    1. I think from top to bottom, our minor league coaching staff needs an overhaul in the pitching arena. We simply dont develop a lot of pitchers and we’ve seen a bunch of our top pitching guys completely flame out or fail to develop as expected.

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      1. Like who? All of our top pitching prospects in recent memory have been traded away before they could succeed or fail with the Phillies. I’m going back to Brett Myers or Gavin Floyd off the top of my head. Not way back in the distance but not too recent either. And I imagine there have been some changes in the minor league coaching staffs since then.

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  47. RAJ really needs to be fired. This deadline is going to pass and either moves won’t be made or we are going to trade guys for second tier prospects not named Marte, Brown, Olt, and Profar. He got out negotiated by Ed Wade, repeat, he got out negotiated by Ed Wade.

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    1. Two teams have to agree to a trade. If they say no, there’s nothing RAJ can do about it. Do people seriously not understand that other teams don’t necessarily value our players the same way we do? Also, the fact that you really want those prospects probably means that their respective teams really want to keep them.

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  48. Time to get Worley’s chip out and Doc back on the dl. You guys know I never was a Dubee fan and Cholly needs a long nap too.
    Please clean the roster tomorrow. Trade Nix and get guys who can catch the ball. Bye Ty

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  49. Dan is right. It takes two to tango. OTOH, looking at Nolan Ryan’s face tonight maybe he will tell his GM to do what has to be done because their pitching was atrocious tonight. For my money I agree on Cholly, Dubee and GG; they should all go. I also agree with the notion that our farm system should be less about organizational fillers like what we seem to have a LHV and more about moving up and developing our prospects. I’d be challenging guys like Adam Morgan who clearly in my mind deserved the promotion to replace Pettibone more than Colvin.

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    1. 24% of his PA’s however he does have a career .391 OBP with a career .911 OPS and solid defense. I’ll take it!

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  52. Cliff Lee for Justin Upton would at least be interesting. I like where the thoughts are at there. Even if he’s having a down year. An OF built around Upton and Brown would be pretty nice. The pitching would suffer a good chunk though.

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    1. I saw that this morning too Chris. I just don’t see how the DBacks can take on Lee’s contract even if the Phillies send them $30mm. With Lee’s option year buy-out, teams are looking at nearly $90 for Lee over three years. That’s a lot for any team to take on

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      1. What ever happens I just hope they don’t agree to pay Lee to pitch for someone else. And how likely is it that Ed Wade again gets some credit after the fact for his moves. AND I’M NOT SAYING at all he was a good GM.

        Just that he did get a few players that have the potential to be solid MLB players…

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  53. Please have Upton come here for Lee. Would love to see Justin in RF and BJ in centerfield for next year. Clear money and bring in some fresh blood.

    Hey Dan, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but anyone in the Jimmy Poppins support group needs to realize it is over. He has been on cruise control for a few years and the manager cannot manage him to change that attitude.

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        1. Actually he is 27 and very mediocre since 08 and if our manager can’t get Rollins to do things a little different how would he get BJ to perform. Besides if you can’t hustle and enjoy playing for Maddon you’re not going to play for anybody. Pass…

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  54. Justin Upton for Lee ?? Does anyone care that he made 13 errors last year ? 13 !! Is that some kind of record? And BJ Upton is not an upgrade in CF. And will cost more than Vic makes now.

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  55. Dodgers looking to land Victorino. Lindblom (great pickup) and another player. Deal in the works

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      1. Indeed. I’ll miss Vic but this needs to happen and it needs to start somewhere. Blanton next

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        1. Salary off the books, a reliever we could use and a spot for Dom Brown. Not earth shattering stuff, but a move in a needed and expected direction.

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  56. Why does no one (including Amaro) seem to get that trading Victorino for anything less than a king’s ransom is a dumb idea? When rumors surfaced that the Phils were asking for a ton in return for him, I was quite pleased, but if they trade him for a reliever, I’m joining the fire RAJ bandwagon. In restocking this team, Victorino is the one guy you don’t currently trade. He’s looking for a multi-year deal (and will find one somewhere), so you offer him the one-year qualifying offer, and get the two top picks as compensation. Those picks are far more valuable to the overall rebuilding of this system than a decent young reliever could ever be. You probably could even get Shane to agree to an Ibanez-style “I will not accept said qualifying offer” arrangement.

    It’s a lost season, and we have a ton of potentially useful young bullpen arms in Lehigh and Reading that are gonna eventually need innings to get adjusted to the big leagues. Call up De Fratus, Aumont, Rosenberg, Cisco, Ramirez, even Bonilla, and start giving them the comparatively low pressure late-season innings on a team that isn’t going anywhere. That way, you can start to figure out what you’ve got for next year’s bullpen.

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    1. you make an interesting point. the phillies are supposed to get a prospect in addition to lindblom. i haven’t seem any names, though.

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    2. bp – only one pick comes back to the Phils should Vic reject a qualifying offer (likely to be in the neighborhood of $13mm). It makes a big difference. Lindblom is a guy who can help us today and for years to come. He could easily develop into an 8th inning for us. What a key piece he can be for a flailing bullpen

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      1. You are correct on the one pick only. I’d misinterpreted the new free agent rules. I sure don’t think I’d trade Shane Watson for Lindblom, so I guess it all depends on the quality of the PTBNL. Another factor to consider is the more early picks you have, the higher your draft budget. As evidenced by the Astros approach this year, this gives you a lot more strategic flexibility in how you approach the draft.

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    3. There are a couple things here that make me like the move:
      1. This move may be low ceiling but it is fairly high reward. Lindblom is a proven commodity under control for 4 more years (~400k for next year). To get a replacement would cost 1-2 million on the open market and would be just as volatile.
      2. I think Victorino gets 2 year deal at most on this market, teams seem to not want to hand out long deals to non-superstar older players. I expect a 2 yr 16-18 million dollar deal with an option for a third year.
      3. Seeing point 2 Victorino would take 1 yr 13 million in a second which would destroy any financial flexibility the Phillies may have and force a Pence/Lee salary dump.
      4. As much as the farm system needs prospects 13 million is a large gamble for one pick in the 40’s (only one pick this year unlike before. Two picks and I think the Phillies keep him.

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    2. Denver – is it officially “player to be named” or simply a yet to be identified player?

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    1. Trade of Victorino may help that situation as well. Perhaps the Phils can absorb 1-2 mil and then land Schoop

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    2. So we go from a team throwing $$$ around to saying we wont eat anything in a deal… Hopefully its just RAJ trying to get a better prospect but if this fails to happen because of Money I say its time for a new GM!!!

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      1. Use your head man. If it is because of money, it is because ownership has made it because of money. People don’t generally fire somebody for doing what is asked of them.

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      2. The thing with eating money is it doesn’t drop the team below the luxury tax. If they can get below now it can allow them to spend more money in following years and would keep them from having to do a salary dump.

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        1. No, what im saying is if the deal does NOT get done!!! Because that accomplishes NOTHING its not about the package IMO as I wasnt expecting anything great for BLanton anyways. If we keep Blanton and all $3 million then what was the point of not trading him and eating say $1.5?

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          1. Again, seeing as how all of this is WILD speculation, I think calling for Amaro to get fired is baseless and, quite frankly, stupid if this deal doesn’t get done.

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            1. LOL well its not about just 1 deal and my new GM is more frustration and sarcasm (cant tell over the net) I know Rube is smart think has done an actual good job.

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  61. D.Brown headed to Philly ahead of an expected Victorino departure (Is D.Brown available in your fantasy leagues?)

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  62. Latest chatter; The Phils also send medical histories of two Pharmers, in addition that of Blanton’s. Interesting

    Pence could still be headed to San Fran. Talks between the teams remain active

    Vic to L.A. looks to be a done deal, but not official just yet

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  63. Here’s my take. The Phils can only pick up Blanton’s salary if they’re also able to move Pence. If they pick up the $3mm left on Blanton’s deal, I say the Oriole’s trade gets done. Pence has to go though for it to happen

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    1. In 2009 he was the #3, #4 in 10, and #9 in 11 ranked prospect in the Dodgers system but has fallen off for 12! Had Frontline SP tagged on him early.

      Background: Martin was a highly rated prospect in high school as both a pitcher and a power-hitting third baseman. He also could have been a college quarterback but opted to sign with the Dodgers for $1.73 million as the 15th overall pick in 2008. He had a rough 2010 at high Class A Inland Empire, losing seven consecutive starts to end his season.

      Scouting Report: Martin is one of the best athletes in the system and has an effortless delivery with a loose arm. When he’s at his best, his fastball sits at 94-95 mph and can reach as high as 98. He had trouble maintaining that velocity last year, dipping to the low 90s at season’s end. When he throws it for strikes, Martin’s curveball is a wipeout pitch. He also has a changeup with slight sinking action that’s a work in progress at this point. His command held him back in 2010, when he led the California League with 81 walks. He’d fall prey to big innings when he’d struggle with his mechanics and start leaving his fastball up in the zone.

      The Future: Martin still has the ceiling of No. 2 starter if he can improve his command. He could end up starting 2011 back in high Class A, but could move quickly one he puts everything together.

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    2. I like this, you pick up a good controllable reliever and a high upside arm. This makes it more than the draft pick would have been and it clears up money and the spot for Brown.

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      1. I didnt think we would get a decent prospect along with getting a controllable MLB ready RP but just shows Lindblom probably isnt viewed that highly IMO.

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    3. I like this Trade. I was honestly doubting that the Phils can get decent value in return but I think they certainly made out well. Martin as the ‘second’ player is a nice surprise. Good deal

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      1. Haven’t seen anything on Pence. Who would they get for Pence if traded? Brown or Panik plus………………….?

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  66. Dodger had changed half their roster DURING the season. Hanley, Infante, League, Victorino and now Dempster but traded Lindblom INSANE!!

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  67. No word on who we’re getting for Pence. Interesting names in San Fran’s system. I doubt we’d get G Brown, but names like Panik and Gillaspie could be in the mix

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  69. So far;

    Out:
    Thome
    Victorino
    Pence

    In:
    Lino (via Thome)
    K Simon (via Thome)
    J Lindblom (via Vic)
    E Martin (via Vic)
    (? T Joseph likely part of package) (via Pence)

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  70. Guys saying they like lindblom, he is 25 and gives up a lot of homers. so he is controllable he isnt a good reliever right now. like martin. worth a shot with his stuff.just wish we get one decent third base propect out of these deals.

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    1. So far;

      Out:
      Thome
      Victorino
      Pence

      In:
      Lino (via Thome)
      K Simon (via Thome)

      J Lindblom (via Vic)
      E Martin (via Vic)
      PTBNL or Cash (via Vic)

      (? T Joseph and possibly Schierholtz part of deal) (via Pence)

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      1. Joseph being in the deal smells of a 3rd team being involved. I don’t know much about him but with Valle and Rupp and Ruiz not going any where in the near term why a catcher…

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        1. I agree, my hope would be we keep Joseph and flip Valle or Rupp. I hear nothing but good things about Joseph.
          Does anyone know what we got for Pence other than Joseph? is Scheuholtz confirmed?

          Holding my breath that Amaro played his dominoes correctly here.
          Dealt Vic to LA which pressured SF to pick up Pence and NOW the talk is Arizona is feeling the heat to pick up the #1 pitcher, Cliff Lee??? If that happens and we get Upton, this day was a monumental success.

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        2. I think it speaks more about the FOs confidence in Valle. Ruiz is a FA in 2014 if I’m not mistaken so Joesph doesn’t seem that bad of an idea. He has power-hitting potential behind the plate. This move also frees up 14mil or so. Going to be a different looking team come next spring

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  72. Pence passed his physical which was last remaining holdup. Deal reported as completed. Joseph, Schierholtz and a 3rd unidentified but likely a pitcher

    Out:
    Thome
    Victorino
    Pence

    In:
    Lino (via Thome)
    K Simon (via Thome)

    J Lindblom (via Vic)
    E Martin (via Vic)
    PTBNL or Cash (via Vic)

    T Joseph (via Pence)
    Schierholtz (via Pence)
    3rd unidentified (via Pence)

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    1. I’m betting they don’t keep this Joseph kid as I believe RAJ is after MLB ready talent. He can’t afford to put dreck on the field for the rest of this season and he certainly can’t afford to be out of contention next year…

      Just My opinion….

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      1. Possibly, but Dom Brown takes Pence’s spot. That’s $14mm back in the kitty for free agent acquisitions. Joesph makes sense even if the Phils keep him. A lot of good reports coming in on Joseph following the trade. And he’s blocked by some kid with the Giants.

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  73. Here we go. Pence is traded and now the Blanton to Baltimore talks pick up again. More prospects coming

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  74. Seth Rosin the 3rd player in the Pence deal. Rosin was at high-A, a 6’6” RHP. He’ll turn 24 in November though.

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    1. Rosin can reportedly run his fastball into the mid-to-upper 90s with great command. He has a nice feel for the change but his lack of a third quality pitch has limited his success as a starter. Could be fast tracked as a reliever perhaps

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        1. In SFs Top 20 prospect section(Rosin #19 with picture) shows and lists him as a 6’6″ 250LB lefty.

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          1. My Bad. Just looked him up on YouTube. He is right handed. Other info was from the SF website. Interesting.

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  75. Thome to Baltimore for:
    Lino
    K Simon

    Victorino to LA Dodgers for:
    J Lindblom
    E Martin
    PTBNL or Cash

    Pence to San Fran for:
    T Joseph
    Schierholtz
    S Rosin

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  76. Not getting disappointed yet, I still feel something is yet to come. I like what we have done to a degree, but feel that either Lee is headed to Arizona or we are packaging a bunch of guys for Headley.

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  77. Two more to go. Blanton to Baltimore which I suspect will get done, and Pierre to the Reds as soon as Reds management stops pretending that they don’t want him

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  79. Tommy Joseph a full year younger than Valle. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Both would be best suited for AA right now

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  80. With Nate coming back in the deal and a supposed call up for Brown we just got very left handed again. And if Bourn is the CF target in the off season thats another….

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        1. I’m not the biggest Bourn fan, but that would be a steal. They are going to be able to squeeze at least a 5th year out of someone, he is head and shoulders above the other CF’s that will be available. And RAJ is going to be involved. I expect the Phillies starting offer will be well north of $50 million.

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  81. Anyone know what Chooch’s contract status is for next year? He is probably the most underpaid player in baseball. If he is ARB watch out.

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      1. Thanks I wonder what his status will be next year especially if they fall out again. He would bring you the slugger you need at third. (not my choice)

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  82. Schierholtz as platoon player thing. I looked up the L v. R . thing. Seems in Schierholtz’s career , though having approximately 4 times as many appearances v. RHP’s , he has a .265 career BA v. RHP’s, but has a .291 career BA v. LHP’s. So, maybe he gets the opportunity to be a full-time player in RF, in lieu of bench player. I think , at least, for the remainder of the current season, that is how it goes. Word on MLBTR and such, was that Schierholtz had talked about requesting a trade, due to lack of playing time In SF. Maybe Schierholtz does well enough to start next season in RF If that is the case, then you count on D. Brown in LF, Schierholtz in RF, plus you have returnees Utley and Howard, who might be healthy and sop up all the playing time at 2B and 1B. So, that’s 4 LHH’s , If they bring in Michael Bourn , that would be 5 regulars. Maybe Michael Bourn is not the one they should or will target.

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  83. I am thinking the Phillies are setup for the future. I might be in the minority but I love these moves.
    2013
    1B – Howard
    2B – Utley
    SS – Galvis
    3B – Rollins
    LF – Brown
    CF – Bourn
    RF – Schierholtz / Mayberry
    C – Ruiz

    SP – Doc
    SP – Hamels
    SP – Lee
    SP – Worley
    SP – Cloyd/Pettibone/Kendrick

    With Polanco, and Blanton off the books we have money saved to get bourn who is 2 years younger and better leadoff hitter then Vic.

    2014

    1B – Howard
    2B – Hernandez
    SS – Galvis
    3B – Rollins
    LF – Brown
    CF – Bourn
    RF – Need a RF at this point
    C – Ruiz/Valle/Joseph

    SP – Hamels
    SP – Lee
    SP – Worley
    SP – Cloyd/Pettibone/May/Colvin/Martin/Rodriguez 2 of these will make up the final 2 spots

    Now we have utley and doc coming off the books to get a top RF and a LF if Brown does not come through.

    We have asche/walding in the wings for 3b when Rollins deal at the end either this year or his option.

    I think with the money flexibility we have now and the talent we still have we can be in this for the next 10 years.

    Like

    1. I think they will have money next year after getting a CF to go for a decent arm for the #5 slot to replace Blanton. In 2014 a lot of money comes of the books. I’ll be surprised if Doc isnt back on a team-friendly extension — he said he wants to retire a Phillie. Lets hope his arm can hold up.

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      1. If Doc can still pitch, he is going to give the Phillies a huge “home town” discount on his next contract. How big that discount is going to be depends on whether Halladay can capture some or most of his old velocity. Even if his FB is in the 88-92 MPH range, I predict that Halladay will adjust and be fine, he just won’t be an ace anymore – more like a really solid 2 or 3 and I expect he’ll be paid like that. If you had to ask me to predict, I would say his next contract would be something like 3 years and $40-45 million ($13-15 million AAV)- and that would work just fine for the Phillies. If he pitches like an ace next year, the contract will still be 3 years, but the money will probably be between $50-55 million($16-18 million AAV).

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        1. Oh I see, and you sat with Doc, his agent and wife and they revealed that little nugget to you, interesting. Apparently whenever anyone else speculates about future happenings you pounce right on their suppositions, but you have the liberty to do it liberally. Will have to archive your post for future refernce.

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          1. Man, relax. It’s just a prediction. You seem to disagree and that’s fine, By the way, if someone else made a prediction and I disagreed, I doubt I jumped all over them – I probably just stated my disagreement. The only time I really remember jumping all over somebody was last week when one of the posters seriously crossed the line and suggested that Trevor May was suffering from severe depression and needed psychological help – I viewed that as a character attack and called the person out. But speculating about contract amounts and length – that’s what we all do on this site. As for my Halladay prediction, you could agree with it, disagree with it, save it, archive it, discard it, whatever you want – but it’s no different than what almost everyone does on this site in the general discussion section. And, yes, we often disagree with one another, but most people try to do it respectfully. I tend to think I’m pretty respectful of people on this site – I certain try to be respectful.

            Like

  85. This kind of crap is why noone can ever take Miami seriously Even with a new stadium money is their only target
    “The Astros are paying virtually all of the $9MM left on Carlos Lee’s contract, but one club that spoke to the Marlins said Miami wanted as much as $2.5MM in return for the slugger. Talks never progressed.”

    Like

  87. I abandoned the howard discussion, mainly for lack of time, also because I hate to dump on a guy who legitimately was a big part of the phillies’ successful run. But more and more I’m convinced that, if anything, I’ve been too optimistic about him. I think it’s possible the 125 million may be a total loss – he may be done as a contributing major league player. Mo Vaughn revisited.

    Of course, if true, that’s worse than simply wasting 125 million. Because of his past value & the contract, it will be years before the team even tries to fill the gaping hole at first.

    Maybe more on this next general discussion, especially why the various arguments that Howard has some sort of magic victory dust that doesn’t show up in the statistics is a load of you know what. Maybe run the numbers on the “clutch” argument for those too lazy to look intelligently at the numbers.

    Like

    1. The platoon splits are just so massive. I think Howard will still crush right handed pitching for a few more years. That’s a useful skill, but I doubt the Phils are going to be smart/humble enough to platoon him. He’s a detriment if he’s allowed to soak up 180 ABs against left handed pitching.

      Like

      1. You have a point, though of course the platoon split has always benn large and the recent detrioration has been against both left and right handed pitching, which is concerning. The bottom line results against right handed pitching are still decent though.

        To break down the decline, we now have data spread over 3 seasons showing a decline in power. What’s disturbing about this season so far is a big spike in K rate as well. Yes, SSS, but K rates stabilize on fairly SSS. Also an accelerating 2 or 3 year decline in Babip is concerning.

        Like

        1. I wonder if the Babip decline is related to the shift? It’s true that he continued to have a high Babip even after teams started employing the shift, but maybe as he has gotten older he has lost the ability to beat the shift.

          Like

    2. When Howard signed that extension I thought that a possibility was the Phillies trade him for a decent to good return, but pay him $12.5m each of the last two years of the deal to play in the AL as a DH.

      I’m beginning to wonder if that was overly optimistic. I don’t think anyone in the AL wants to pay $12.5m for an automatic out against lefties. He has had one ‘career year’ against lefties in 2010, but 5 out of the last 6 years he has hit .225 or lower against lefties and even manages to strike out at a higher rate (despite his already high rate against lefties).

      Another problem is once teams learned how to pitch to Ryan Howard and how to employ the shift it killed his average. If teams didn’t shift against him he’d probably have hit 20-30 points higher the last couple of seasons. If pitchers make a mistake he’s still going to hit it a long way, but so could Matt Stairs. You wouldn’t pay him $25m or $12.5m to be your DH.

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      1. Perhaps they parlay the two PTBNLs for one better prospect? Dare to dream …

        I read somewhere that the holdup could be the Phils requested a player from the 2011 draft, and have to wait for the one-year anniversary of that player’s signing. Not sure how true that is.

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  89. A) We need a new general discussion.
    B) Dom Brown has looked pretty good with the big league club. He’s had some nice patient at bats and gotten a few hits. Now we just need to see some power. His defense is still pretty shaky though. He had a play where he got turned around during his route to the wall and it prevented him from being able to make the play. It’d be nice if we got to the point where he could make that kind of play.

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