I didn’t really know what else to title this, so I came up with some sort of boring title like you see above. In some ways, I think this is going to feel like some stream of consciousness writing at some points about baseball, prospects, trade deadlines, and a bunch of other stuff. Who knows when I will stop.
So it’s 2012, and your former #1 prospect is currently in AAA after posting a .725 OPS in 2011, and he’s struggling. He’s struggling big-time. He’s 24, but he might as well be a washed-up 28-year-old with no future ahead of him. He’s Domonic Brown, and he’s currently languishing in AAA Lehigh Valley when he probably should have been with the big club by now. That said, in AAA, he is by all accounts struggling in the field and is struggling at the plate as well. Those who have seen him play in the field say he’s been nothing short of abysmal, and those who watched him in Philadelphia last year know he can be a bit of adventure. But that bat. That bat is still there, as the .725 OPS would point out at the age of 24 (and age 23 for a good part of the time he was up last year).
Now we hear that Domonic has begun working in center field, according to Joe Jordan and Scott Proefrock.
From CSNPhilly.com:
“Joe saw him shagging and thought he looked good so he wanted to give it a try,” assistant general manager Scott Proefrock said Friday night. “Joe talked to Domonic about it and they thought they’d give it a try.”
That’s what it’s come to for Domonic Brown, at least outfield-wise. They saw him shagging and thought it would be a good idea to try him out in center field. Does this mean left field and right field are done, kaput, over, for the Phillies’ enigmatic former #1 prospect? I don’t know. All I know is that this could work. Hear me out, folks. This could work. Shane Victorino, as many of you know, is a free agent after this season. The Phillies have not gotten what they have wanted out of John Mayberry, Jr. Hunter Pence has had an up and down 2012, but he has stabilized himself and is now producing in a meaningful manner. So, is Domonic Brown in center field for the Phillies next April? Is this what it’s going to be? I don’t know. Nobody does. I don’t even think Domonic Brown knows what he’s doing in center field, but there he is, shagging fly balls in center field and moving on from life as a left or right fielder. If center field is where his life is, it’s where it is.
But, what about the plate? I was fortunate enough to see Brown play in Reading a few years ago, and you could tell he had the look of a Major League player. He carried himself in that manner. At the plate, he was able to work the count, he took pitches, and he had a great eye. He carried that over to the Majors when we saw him in 2010 and 2011. While the results in 2011 were better than 2010, it still wasn’t what we expected. This off-season, Ruben Amaro Jr. went out and signed Laynce Nix, Juan Pierre and Ty Wigginton because he didn’t think Brown would contribute in 2012, at least at the beginning of the year. Well, he hasn’t. Brown has gone on to struggle with Lehigh Valley at the plate, and currently has a .256/.292/.355 line with the team. He hasn’t hit a home run, but he definitely proved he could hit some long ones with the Phillies last year. He has natural talent, a lot of it yet to be untapped. I truly believe that. This is a guy who was undecided as to whether or not he wanted to play baseball or football. He chose baseball because he believed he could succeed at it. He hasn’t yet. So what? He has plenty of time left to do so. The Phillies cannot give up on Domonic Brown, and Domonic Brown cannot give up on the Phillies.
When the Roy Halladay trade talks were going down in the summer of 2009, there was plenty of talk about Brown and whether or not the Phillies should move him in a deal for Doc. Eventually, we were stuck with that awful, awful consolation prize of Cliff Lee. (Joking, here.) We got Doc a few months later, and he has been magnificent since then. We parted with a pretty decent package, but as we have seen, Travis D’Arnaud has become the centerpiece of that package, or at least it would appear. I would say Amaro has done a pretty good job with his trades since he has taken over. He really hasn’t gotten fleeced much, but the jury is obviously still out on a lot of the deals because they involve players who we won’t know a lot about for a long time.
I guess what I am trying to say here in this long, rambling post is that we cannot give up on Brown, nor can we rate our prospects too highly. Sometimes things don’t work out. It doesn’t take some sort of genius to look at Matt Bush or the first few years of Josh Hamilton’s professional career. Things change. People change. Domonic Brown is still in the Phillies’ minor league system for a reason. He is trying to get better each and every day at the game of baseball. This guy is 24 years old. If this whole center field thing rejuvenates him, we will look back on these last few months and laugh. The guy deserves a chance. Who knows if he will make it? I don’t, nobody does. But Brown has shown those flashes that make you believe he still can contribute to this team, maybe sooner rather than later. All it takes is one look at the Phillies’ outfield to know this. Mayberry hasn’t produced, and Victorino is a free agent. The only sure starter next year would appear to be Pence. Will Nix start? I don’t know. Will we sign a free agent? I don’t know.
I do know that Brown deserves another chance, because he has received some pretty interesting treatment these past couple of seasons. I really don’t think the Phillies knew what they wanted to do with Brown. They had plans, and when he didn’t go out and hit 60 homeruns and get the praise and adulation that Bryce Harper got, they kind of panicked. That’s just one theory. Could Domonic Brown have been the Phillies’ starting left fielder on Opening Day? You bet. Maybe he would have had a different psyche going into 2012. Maybe he would have performed better knowing he was in the Major Leagues instead of worrying about pressure to perform at Lehigh Valley in front of a few thousand fans, some of whom are going to to the game for the sole purpose of entertaining their kids for a few hours instead of actually paying attention to what is happening on the baseball field.
Now, we can only sit and wait. Trading Brown now would make no sense. The Phillies are in this for the long haul. Brown is only 24, to turn 25 in September, and still has some sort of future in him in the game of baseball, in this writer’s honest and humble opinion. The yo-yo treatment Brown has gotten probably has messed with him a little bit. Are the Phillies at fault for this? That’s for the fans to decide. After all, that’s what we are: fans. We aren’t experts. We don’t know everything, and we can’t act like we know everything. I certainly don’t. What I do know is this: Domonic Brown has a huge month ahead of him here, because if he performs well and the team continues to see a struggling Mayberry, a falling off Juan Pierre, and a still-injured Laynce Nix, the spot may be wide open for the guy. Time to buck up, Dom. You’ve got a long way to go.
Phuture Phillies 
Brown has always been my favorite, I still think he should have been up with the big league club on opening day
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I’m right there with you. His approach at the plate is better than anyone on the team besides Chooch and Utley. I’ll deal with the adventure in left to have his bat in the lineup.
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Very nice post, agree 100%.
I’m gonna play conspiracy theorist now. Am I the only one curious that Brown’s move to CF coincided with Utley shagging balls in LF? Sure, when Utley gets back this year he’s at second, but I can definetly see a scenario where the team goes ot him in the offseason and convinces him to shift to left to prolong his career. That would give 2B to Galvis who has shown he can hold his own and maybe, okay BIG maybe, CF goes to Brown providing he proves he can handle it. Vic walks and they pay Cole. Still a gaping hole at 3B but they should be able to afford a decent stop gap for 2-3 years hoping one of the young guys pans out.
Now none of this will probably happen, but I would actually be happy if things played out like this.
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If Dom proves he can handle CF and starts hitting again then it’s not a bad plan at all.
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That would be a horrible defensive outfield.
I think Utley to left field is a possibility. He was only shagging fly balls in left because the grass was softer on his knees.
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“because the grass was softer on his knees.”
Yes, that just shouts to his long-term viability at 2B.
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Half of Utley’s value stems from his defense at second. I don’t think moving him is a good idea.
Also, I’m in no way a sports therapist or anything, but wouldn’t playing the outfield be WORSE on his knee’s? I mean, he’s going to be running a LOT more…
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It’d be easier because there’s less cutting and abrupt stopping compared to 2B…particularly when it comes to things like turning DPs at the bag. Straight out running isnt nearly as hard on the knees as that.
Yeah, you lose value but you have to consider the possibility of getting zero value out of an Utley who cant handle 2B anymore vs okay value for an Utley whose bat still plays fairly well in LF though not nearly as well as it did at 2B in his prime.
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If Brown proves that he can play a decent CF that puts less pressure on the bat and if he can draw walks and show the power he has flashed in past seasons he could be a plus player in CF.
I think he is on the verge of a tear at the plate, he should be healthy and that means the power should come along with a lot of walks and some SBs thrown in.
I am not a huge fan of Utley in LF, his bat is merely average there, where it is special at second. Galvis needs to make the move back to SS eventually because he can be huge value there (whether that means Rollins to 3B or out of town), but his glove his a huge weapon in the field.
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Utley’s bat in LF might only be average but it might be the only way he can play in the NL. Think about it, Utley has been taking batting practice and running for over a month now, and he’s been shagging fly balls in the OF every day, yet he has only sporadically taken ground balls in the infield. I think the plan has to be for him to be in LF. I think the Phils are very comfortable with Galvis playing second and batting 8th. The future for Brown and Mayberry both will be in CF.
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A combined middle-infield OPS of 1.150…. that will certainly strike fear into the hearts of opposing pitchers.
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I think that’s more on our very wealthy veteran SS than on the rookie 2B with superior numbers to him.
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I wholeheartedly agree with you there. However I guess my point was that we don’t have the luxury of playing an all-field no-hit rookie @ 2B when our $35 million SS is hitting .229/ .285/ .300. They need some offense somewhere….
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I completely agree.
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Larrym will tell you Rollins will be fine, he just has a very low babip which is the result of bad luck. It has nothing to do with the fact that he hits popups in the infield every at bat he doesn’t strikeout chasing a high fastball.
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how can you say galvis is all field and no hit! yes he might not have a high ave but look at his rbi he’s like 3rd or 4th with less ab’s than our washed up ss! and most of his ab’s are good not all, but most he will develope into a fine hitter in time he’s only 22 but he has a certain fire in him to get better. and on his fielding.. he’s the best fielding 2cd baseman in all of MLB
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And yet with that middle infield the Phillies have the 2nd most runs scored in the NL in the month of May.
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Personally I think Brown’s future is tied to Cholly being the manager next year. Sandberg would be better for Brown but that will have to wait .
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Charlie was the one who’s clamored for Domonic to be called up the last two years,.. obviously loves the kid.
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browns done fellas! hate to rain on your parade. i’ve been watching ball for over 50 yrs and i’ve seen a lot of guys like him. and he doesn’t have it! galvis on the other hand does! watch him grow into an allstar! give him a couple of years. i hope i’m wrong on brown but sadly i think i’m right. i think he has the tools definately but he doesn’t have the desire. the other thing is why didn’t the coaches at all levels of play let his talent potential stop them from teaching him the correct way to approach fielding a ball? or running the bases?
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Haha yeah Galvis and his .260 OBP scream ML regular
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Brown with an errorless night in CF, along with an OF assist
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Why is it the Phillies can not teach a guy to play outfield? DBrown has been able to hit since I watched him play opening day in Lakewood. He also committed an error that day in right. Indictment of the Phillies ability to work with a player? Either the player improves on their own or they don’t. Phillies do not seem to care either way.
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What is there to teach other than basic fundamentals? After that it’s all about being able to read the ball and reaction time.
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Brown’s problems go beyond his abilities and production to date. The Phillies haven’t mishandled him and, in my opinion, he just isn’t going to make it. Yes, I said it. He might bounce around as an extra OF (because he does have talent), but something about this situation stinks and the evidence points to Brown. The miserable struggles after he was sent to the Arizona Fall League and, a year later, to winter ball and back to Triple A in 2010. It adds up to a guy who just isn’t tough enough. I remember reading how Brown was “tired” at the end of 2010 and found it very troubling. A year later, the same thing. I can see mishandling a pitcher who is brought up too early, or pitched too many innings to early. But cripes, Brown is an OF. See ball, catch ball. See ball, hit ball.
He can’t seem to handle any adversity. And he doesn’t seem to have the passion and hunger for it. The Phillies are trying to break him now and it doesn’t look good. He seems satisfied to wallow in mediocrity. Sad, because the talent is there. I just highly doubt he is going to make it.
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He was hitting fairly well right before the Hunter Pence trade… to say he’s not going to make it is probably shortsighted.
He was rushed to the Major Leagues TWICE. Once to be a bench bat. Despite you’re beliefs, you CAN mishandle a hitter.
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Sure, you can “mishandle” mentally weak players at any position. The facts are what they are. You just have to read between the lines. I mean who has trouble switching from right to left field? I’ve been watching baseball for 35 years and never heard of that. Who ends two consecutive seasons early because he’s “tired?” What 22-year-old elite athlete is sent home because he’s “tired?” You’re right, he was hitting fairly well last year. They sent him down with instructions to learn tweak his position some and come back in Sept. ready to help the big club, then to spring training to be the likely starter. Not the toughest of assignments for an elite prospect. Brown sulked, made a ton of errors and misplays at Lehigh Valley and hit .217. He’s lucky they even brought him back in September. But I think at that point, after the AFL nonsense and the winter ball fiasco, the Phils’ brass wrote Brown off. As they should have. He has done nothing to justify an ounce of faith. Sorry, but the Phillies are not the Houston Astros. We don’t have the time to coddle some whiny kid, nor do we have the luxury of letting him have 550 at-bats just to get acclimated to the big leagues. And this is the Big Leagues. Like life, it’s tough. How you deal with those setbacks defines you as a player and as a person. Brown has failed at every setback. It’s a very bad sign. I don’t think the Phillies have any plans whatsoever for Dom Brown at this point. Nor should they. If he wants back on their radar, he will have to earn it.
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What are you talking about? You have absolutely no idea what his mindset is and he hasn’t publicly whined about anything. You’re just making crap up to fit some sort of narrative in your head about why he’s not playing well.
Scouts were concerned about his routes on fly balls well before he came up in 2011. Some guys just don’t have good instincts out there. He hasn’t had any power since he broke his hand and I’m concerned about him ever being the player we hoped for, but this WIP nonsense where you attack his character because he’s not performing the way you like is BS.
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Sorry Pat. It’s not good news and it’s not what I want either. But it is what it is. I’m not making up anything. He was sent home because he was “tired.” Every time he’s been sent down, he has struggled. Every time he has faced adversity, he has struggled. This is not what you want in a player. The Phils dont even talk about him anymore. It is what it is and I refuse to make excuses for him. Maybe the light will come on and he will fight his way back. I just don’t see it.
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Pat is right, and obvious trolling is obvious.
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Yes, of course. Read something you don’t agree with and yell “troll!” Really? You don’t have anything better than that? How about making an insightful response? I’ve been a Phillies’ fan since the 70s and nobody wants Domonic Brown to succeed more than me. And I’m sorry to rain on your parade. I just don’t think we’ll hear much more from him. Move on. The Phillies obviously have. At this rate, he won’t even get a September call-up.
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Michael Barkann, on Domo’s attitutde, said it better then most when he was on assigment for CSN in spring training in 2011.
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IMO, all Ruben wants from Domo now, is to get back some semblance of where he use to be so he has value added to a package come July.
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Every team has the luxury of letting a prospect have 550 AB’s. The Red Sox have done it, the Yankees have done it, the Rays have done it, the Rangers have, etc. etc. so on and so on. This myth that a contending team can’t have a spot taken by a rookie is a complete and utter fallicy. The problem, as I see it, is that we have a reactionary GM who likes whatever the current shiny toy is. He has no patience (like some fans apparently).
Brown is also human. Being frustrated at the way your employer is treating you is natural. It’s not like the kid is making millions of dollars being yanked back and forth and now on his third position in the last two years. I’m a little more pissed at J-Roll’s lack of production and in some cases effort than I am at Brown’s struggles. Have a little empathy for the kid, if he doesn’t make it, it affects your life exactly 0%.
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Poor Dom Brown. Asked to switch from right field to left field. ohmy, what were they thinking?! You talk like he’s been moved from third base to the closer role to catcher. Let’s stop making excuses people How about holding Brown to a high standard? I have never heard of a left fielder piling up errors like he has. Left field is the easiest position to play on the field.
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Can people stop using “Anonymous’s” and identify yourself? If you feel your opinion is discussion worthy tha please use your screen name.
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So sorry, been using “Anonymous L” for a while now. But since you asked nicely and it’s apparently the only way my opinion will be discussion worthy, I will use a different name.
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I get tired of having to type my name every time I comment. So I leave it blank. If all other anonymous’s pick a name, then I won’t be anonymous anymore
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That was my plan but none of you other anonymous’ picked a name haha
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“Sorry, but the Phillies are not the Houston Astros. We don’t have the time to coddle some whiny kid, nor do we have the luxury of letting him have 550 at-bats just to get acclimated to the big leagues.”
When they start thinking like this is when payers like Ruiz never get a shot to become one of the best Catchers in the game. Player development continues throughout a career and slumps in baseball sometimes last a year. While you control their rights there is always time to let a play with ability continue to grow.
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That is very true. A good point. But doesn’t your example tell you something? The Phils have stuck it out with a lot of mediocre players. Carlos Ruiz is a champion. Know why? He spent nine years in the minors grinding his way to the Bigs. He was a 16-year-old Panamanian when they signed him and switched him to catcher. He had to learn how to speak English and go behind the plate as a teenager. Talk about adversity! How about Kyle Kendrick? People have been trying to bury KK for years. He doesn’t strike out enough guys. He can’t go deep. He can’t dominate teams. You could argue the Phils have “mishandled” him. You could argue Kendrick has a right to have a bad attitude. He pitched well in 2010. They sent him to the bullpen. I can tell you for a fact that Kyle Kendrick hates the bullpen. He hates it. Did he sulk? Did he let it affect his performance? No. He went out there and pitched great. And he pitched great in spot start duty last year. His reward? They banished him to the bullpen again. Again, Kendrick accepted his role like a pro and has pitched great. You win with guys like Kyle Kendrick. And Carlos Ruiz. That’s why both players have WS rings. They’re champions. Now you have Dom Brown who falls apart because he’s asked to switch from right field to left field? What does it say to the rest of this team of champions if you give this kid a free pass? It’s not even a consideration. The Phillies are winners because they have a team of winners. A team of tough-minded players who know how to fight through adversity. I only listed two but the entire roster is filled with similar guys with similar attitudes. That’s why Brett Myers is in Houston. Didn’t fit in. And that’s why Dom Brown is in Lehigh Valley. They are trying to teach him how to be a pro. Hopefully, he gets it.
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I agree with your last statement “They are trying to teach him how to be a pro.” when looking at the whole picture that is Dom Brown you need to remember that He never failed ate baseball until that off season in winter ball(before that he slugged his way through AA,AAA and had a pro debut (People forget that he started 2009 in the GCL and by the end of 2010 he was in a MLB playoff game). Since then he has had to learn to deal with several different types of adversity and guys like Ruiz and KK and Vanimal came up through the system always fighting the adversity at every level so they are better equipped to handle it at a big league level. My own personal belief is that this phenomenon explains the majority of softmore slumps you see from all professional athletes (Jason Heyward the most recent example).Hey there is always an if attached to weather or not a player can learn to deal with this and grow as a person and continue with their own development or they crumble and dissappear, or they get sent to low A and rebuild themself as a HOF pitcher. To me this is the BEST part of watching prospects seeing them hit adversity and grow and become more complete players, and i love pulling for our prospects when they hit rough patches, even if the world labeled them a can’t miss. Hey we are in Philly we are supposed to love the rise from the ashes, underdog, beaten downtrodden players.
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he wasn’t rushed. if he has all the talent you propose then he would be okay! nobody as far as i know didn’t have a problem with him at the plate. it was his fielding and lack of hustle on a few balls hit in the infield and dumb baserunning! and as far as what john hilton said .. he’s dead on right!
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Internet psychologists. SMDH
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THIS^^
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I am pulling for Brown but agree – something in this situation is not being talked about publicly. If I am the Phillies, I would do the same thing, because you have to protect the player while he’s trying to develop. But I seem to remember that when Chuck Lamar left the Phillies abruptly, Brown was a point of contention between him and the org, and that Lamar was not a fan. Am I off on this? Does anybody else remember this? There were also the rumors that the Phils were trying to get Houston to take Brown instead of Singleton.
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I think that the Houston rumor was that the Phillies offered Brown for Pence straight up or with much lesser players rather than simply taking Singletons place as one of the 4 players shipped over.
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There was also the rumor that the Phillies were trying to flip Domonic to another team but couldn’t find a taker in order to get another prospect for Houston.
I do know that all reports were that the Astros preferred Singleton to Brown.
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Maybe Chuck Lamar got fired because he kept promoting Dom Brown despite his fielding problems and other issues.
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Is this a serious response?
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yea ed i have a theory. the story told by reporters was that lamar left cause he was upset about all the minor leaguers we traded away! i find that laughable and just a stupid job of reporting. what i think happened sounds more realistic.. the phils were ticked at lamar for hyping brown up and when they saw just how raw he was and told him to leave! the story was told otherwise so he could get a job somewhere else! they’re not the type of F.O to bad mouth people. if that was the case then the phils were duped and we are where we are because someone on the farm didn’t do there job! if i’m in lamars shoes i’m happier than a pig in slop if my minor leaguers traded away got me hallady ,lee, oswalt, pence and a trip to th WS and five div titles! think about it
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It always seemed to me that they had Brown change his swing after his bad callup in 2010, and he hasn’t been the same since. It’s true that he broke his wrist not too long after, but he struggled in winter ball and ST before that.
Has anyone heard anything recently on this? Any first-hand reports on his swing? I heard that he was working on it over the Winter (i.e. seeing Gary Sheffield), which suggests he still hasn’t figured it out, and the results so far haven’t been good.
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His swing looked terrific in Spring Training. In fact he probably had the 2nd most impressive spring after Ruiz. He was stinging balls and even his outs were hard hit.
I think (hope) that we’ll see a rejuvanted Dom Brown when he’s promoted. We’ll have to live with his LF gaffes from time to time but his bat just needs a little more major league seasoning before it takes off.
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Spring Training means absolutely nothing in the long-run. He was killing the ball off guys working on fastball location in the first couple weeks of ST…its not the same as real game action.
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Yeah I don’t agree. To say it means nothing is just silly. Both the pitchers and hitters are working off the rust.
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Year after year, guys have either great or terrible Spring Training stats and the exact opposite occurs once the games start meaning something. Pitchers are working on new pitches, hitters are working on timing. Its not a usable group of statistical data as a result.
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All statistical data is relevant. You just weight it a little different dependending on the situation. But to just throw it out as bad is just ludicrous. Especially when he demonstrated it already in the major leagues.
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Polanco posted a 1.050 OPS this spring…
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What did Ruiz hit? How’s he doing now? Did he ever hit that well in the spring? Did he he ever hit this well in the regular season? Is their a slight bit of correlation? Can’t discard everything from the spring.
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For as many “correlations” you will find, there are probably 5 other guys that did the exact opposite.
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This spring with brown was not about stats it was about what one saw. Yes it is true that he saw more fastballs, but as we are witnessing with the big club just because you get a fastball right down the middle of the plate doesn’t necessarily mean you are going to hit it hard (see Rollins and Victorino). I remember this spring seeing lasers all over the field off of his bat and then he tweaked his groin missed a week and was sent to minor league camp.
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They’re gonna keep working with him. They don’t really have a choice.
As for John, calling Domonic Brown “whiny” really doesn’t make any sense to me. Have you met the guy? I haven’t, which is why I use a lot of “I don’t know” and “who knows” in my article. If you’ve met the guy and you think he’s whiny and “tired”, then fine, but I think it’s hard to judge a guy like you are.
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Of course they dont. If anything, the Phillies would desperately like Dom to succeed and turn his season around as it helps them make some very tough decisions in the off-season concerning Vic and Pence and long-term deals. They were probably hoping that he would force the issue and get off to a great start in Lehigh. Instead, he has done the exact opposite and despite injuries to guys like Nix, Brown just putters along putting up very mediocre numbers and terrible fielding.
I’m sure they would love it if he clicks in CF and starts to hit too.
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We’d all love it!!
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Are we sure they want him to succeed? I thought they were trying to “break” him. Ugh!
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Does anyone think Pence’s defensive skill will improve? Not likely He requires a great CF if he remains in RF or moves to LF. I certainly don’t have faith or an answer to any long term deals for Pence or Vic for that matter. I rather have players like Galvis who always have their head in the game.
It is easier to lose a game then get the game winning hit or run.
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To say you’d rather have Galvis as opposed to Pence on your team b/c he has “his head in the game” is disingenuous at best. Galvis, on his best day, will not provide nearly the offensive value as Pence and even if their defensive metrics are included in the equation is still isn’t close. Intangibles such as the one you mentioned do not even register.
As for Pence’s defense, how many runs has he cost them so far this season?
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Calling him whiny clearly isn’t based in anything resembling fact. If John would’ve began and ended his argument in Brown’s inability to handle any sort of adversity then it would at least be discussion-worthy. Brown has struggled mightily at several steps in the last 2+ years (AFL, Winter ball, AAA, etc) and there is no longer any defense for his farcical fielding. These are clear issues that we could discuss.
But even with all of that the signs of All-Star caliber offense are still there and if he’s not made into a human roller coaster again this season, but simply left in AAA to compile ABs and innings in LF he could be a valuable player for the stretch run and then catapult that into next season.
I’m in total agreement with Victor – there is just too much talent there to give up on him @ 24 because he didn’t instantly become the superstar some thought he should/ would become.
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OK, you guys want to attack me because I used the word “whiny?” OK, I take it back. Yes, it is a presumption. I have not met him. Don’t pick out one word to attack. Consider my larger point because it is dead on.
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Yeah, I read through a couple of your posts and, frankly, I think his “whininess” for lack of a better word, is your entire point. We are all disappointed in his performance, but insiders have lauded his attitude and approach – to the point where it has been noteworthy. He also has gone on record numerous times that he his a former football player and appreciates and even likes when the coaches get on him and I did not get the sense that he was full of baloney. So, really, I don’t think this is about his attitude or approach or him being a “winner” or not – it’s about him trying to work hard to regain his footing and his confidence. And by the way, if you are looking for guys who were initially branded as losers, look no further than the guy who was a high touted first round pick, made it to the majors, did okay for a while, and then tanked so bad that he posted the highest annual earned run IN MAJOR LEAGUE HISTORY. He was so bad that they kicked his rear end all the way back down to A level minor league baseiball. His name? Roy Halladay – yeah, what a loser.
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Sorry, there is no other way to put this. But if you’re comparing Doc to Dom Brown, then you don’t get what it takes to be a champion.
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It’s easy to say that in retrospect. I am not comparing the 35 year-old, mature and fully transformed Doc Halladay to Dom Brown, I am saying that, at 23 years-old, folks were thinking Doc Halladay was a bust, so much so that he was sent all the way down to A ball. I am talking about THAT Roy Halladay. Or how about Curt Schilling – who looked like a complete bust until he was 25? Or Randy Johnson, who never looked like he was going to turn it around. Or Jose Bautista, who seemd a bust and jumped from team to team before turning it around.
If there was indepedent support for your theory that Dom Brown had a bad attitude or was a whiner, I’d listen (Brett Myers, as you rightly point out, had a terrible attitude and was a complete jerk). But I am not aware of any support for that theory. Now, the idea that he may be too mentally fragile, while I may not entirely agree, I can at least understand why you would say that.
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You’re comparing apples to oranges. All those players you list couldn’t perform at the ML level. Brown was doing fine last year in his six weeks as a starter. His issues are mental. And please, get off the “whiny” comment. I said it once and already took it back. The issue is his complete lack of any mental toughness. And it’s been shown up time and time again. And he’s either going to rise up, take charge of his future, or he’s never going to be heard from again. And I’m sorry, but going to winter ball and striking out 12 times in 20 at-bats (or whatever it was), well, that is partly attitude. It has to be. He obviously wasn’t prepared. Going back to Triple A and batting .217 with oodles of defensive misplays, well, that’s partly attitude. It certainly isn’t physical. We all agree he’s loaded with physical skills. Time to show it.
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I agree with you that it’s mental. But not an “attitude” problem. I also agree he’s either going to fix it or he isn’t. I’m in the “change of club camp” with dbrown at this point.
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I don’t see how your attitude isn’t a big part of how your respond to adversity. Unless you’re suggesting he’s depressed and/or mentally disabled in some way? I haven’t heard anything of the sort in his case.
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I agree that who you are as a person, we’ll call it a persons psyche has a huge impact on your ability to play baseball and over-come adversity along the way. That said, when you say dominic brown has a bad attitude, most of the posters on this board take it to mean he doesn’t give a hoot, doesn’t want to work hard, or has problems with authority. I don’t think any of those things is the case with him. As we all know, he’s been jerked around unessisarily between ML and AAA and he’s had some unlucky injuries. I don’t remember these defensive problems in his first stint with the phillies, and I watched most of those games. What has changed? The only thing that’s changed is his confidence. The man is probably f’d up in the head right now. But it’s not for lack of caring or wanting. You and Catch are debating terminology I think.
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Well, I guess we’ll see how tough or resilient he is, but he’s still plenty young and the season isn’t over yet. But baseball is like golf, it’s not just about effort and toughness. A lot of times, the reason a player does not do well is that he is pressing too hard – trying to do too much or putting too much pressure on himself and this is what I think is going on with Brown. Usually, these things work themselves out over time if a player (particularly a position player) is motivated and hard working as, sooner or later, the player properly adjusts his approach. I just can’t think of many position players who were motivated and hard working who ultimately failed because of lack of mental toughness. In the long run, players make it or don’t make it because of their ability, effort, and preparation, which is why, sooner or later, I expect Brown to make it.
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I hope you’re right. I just think three consecutive seasons of this is a large enough sample size for me. I would at least like to see a decent hot streak so we could get something via trade.
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? I would argue for him there’s no such thing as a decent hot streak, once he gets it back togeather again, I think he’ll be fine going forward and it wouldn’t make sense to trade him. The question is will the phillies see that, or will we trade him for a bag of balls.
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and what did halladay do when he was sent down? he got his game on and the rest is history! and what did brown do? or should i say what has he done! he allready has more errors than some of’s have in a season! and you’re still speculating that his bat will come around. hey i’d take gillies or casto or james over brown any day!
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The point in all of this talk Hilton is we should have stayed at a Holliday Inn
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Er… good one!
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The argument that is implied by some that defend Brown is that if he had been placed on the Phillies instead of the Iron Pigs he would be hitting much better. One is accustomed to thinking that it is much harder to hit major league pitching than AAA pitching. So, the argument seems to be that being sent down had a negative effect on Brown’s mental state. Ultimately, this defense of Brown really begs the argument that he is mentally soft and is not really a positive for him.
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” Ultimately, this defense of Brown really begs the argument that he is mentally soft and is not really a positive for him.”
Or it means that he is acting like a 24 year old kid who is having to deal with adversity and still has some maturing to do. I find it hard to believe he is moping as it is contradictory to all of the comments people who have worked with him (Sheffield, Charlie, Sandburg) have described his attitude and willingness to learn and work. The argument is not used to excuse his performance. We are just reminding people that often with players who get sent down they do not perform to their fullest due to an internal disappointment. Hell this has been the case with many ball players not just this one kid.
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I think you have a worthy point here if you are saying he could still turn it around with maturity. I have said that, although I don’t expect it. I have moved on from Domonic Brown. If he wants to surprise me, I will be happily surprised. At this point, I support whatever toughlove tactics the Phils want to use on him. As for comments about his attitude, I don’t put much stock in those. What manager is going to tell the truth if a kid really is a dog? Again, actions speak louder than words and the offseason signings of Nix and Pierre speak volumes about where they see Brown in the near future
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Giving Brown a chance to learn CF proves the Phillies haven’t soured on him. It does, however, cast a shadow over Victorino. I think the FO will have to choose between Hamels and Victorino and there’s really no contest there. Frankly I think a platoon of Mayberry and Brown in CF makes a lot of sense as long as we can re-sign Hamels; hopefully we can re-sign Pence, too.
When Brown broke his hamate bone I recall a few posters making the point that the power can take two years to fully return. I’m not sure why people want to throw him overboard, he’s not hurting us in AAA and there’s a good chance he will emerge as an impact player. Remember, it wasn’t just the Phillies who rated Brown highly, there were plenty of other front offices who liked him, too.
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I have been a Brown booster and hoped he would justify being put on the 25-man roster at season’s start, but we should face the facts: he sucks defensively, and he has done nothing so far to justify a promotion to the Phils.
Now, we are starting to see a pattern of Brown’s missing games because of injury and a suggestion that he is fragile emotionally.
I have given up on Brown by no means, but he must earn his promotion to the Phils and prove, by performance, that he will be more than an average major league starter. If he continues to suck defensively, Brown’ ceiling may not be much more.
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Has anyone seen what Q Berry has been doing with Detroit? Makes me sick. .310 few SBs, few doubles. Filling in well for A Jax.
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Just a week. I love that Berry made it, but his AA/AAA stat line over 1500 plate appearances has him at a .256 hitter. That he maintains a .310 batting average in the American League is more than a little unlikely.
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I am not going to wade into some of the arguments going on here but rather here are some simple thoughts.
– Since no one here knows Brown personally do not attack his mental make up or capacity, analyze what you do know, he does not instinctively take the best path to a flyball and may have trouble reading it off the bat
– No one on this site could play LF at the major league level, it is not easy for any player, there are only 30 starting major league LF (and you could argue that many of them should not be)
– He is 24 years old, remember how you were at 24 and imagine you are the entire youth movement of a major league franchise, how are you reacting
– We analyze Brown as a superstar in waiting, compare him against an average OF in the majors and you will find he has proven it
– Errors are not the best read on a fielder’s ability, you only get an error or docked on your fielding percentage if you make it to the ball. Yes he is out of position a lot but he has huge range
– He is extremely athletic, you can work on teaching him (some things like reading the ball off the bat border between teachable and not), you cannot teach players to be more athletic
Just remember if he wasn’t Dominic Brown and hyped beyond any other prospect we have had in a while we would not be attacking him for his faults, we would be saying this guy is in AAA working on things waiting for his break into the big leagues
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Any and all of that might be true. We can probably generate another list that doubles the number of excuses. The bottom line is here’s a kid who did well last year in his first ML taste as a starter. In 184 at-bats, he had 10 doubles, 5 HRs, a decent K/walk ratio and a palatable .725 OPS. He had pop and some energy. I remember.
From that, he’s disappeared from the Phils’ radar, doesn’t have a home run in Triple A yet, has just a horrible 8/28 walk to K ratio and is lost on defense.
It is what it is. At some point, the excuses have to stop and the production needs to start. He’s going to be 24 for exactly three more months. I don’t see a guy who is doing anything to fulfill his potential. Quite honestly, this is a classic situation where a change of scenary is needed. The problem is the Phils won’t be able to get anything close to what his true value should be, all things being equal.
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So tell me why the change of scenery has to happen via trade, and not waiting a couple of years because the guy had a serious injury?
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any body who has ever played the outfield be it LL, babe ruth, highschool, sandlot or what ever. it doesn’t matter if you’re a superstar. at all levels you track the ball square it up and catch it. some guys are faster some guys aren’t but when you get to it if you can you catch it. a lot of times he doesn’t! and don’t tell me errors aren’t the best read. because if that was true he would still be on the big club. get this ya can’t have a guy playing outfield thats gonna drive in 80- 100 runs and make 20 errors in the outfield. it just isn’t gonna happen at the ML level. simple as that.
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I think Brown’s struggles are exaggerated. He performed fine in 2010, had a .395 OBP last year but lost power. He also suffered a wrist injury in ST that frequently saps power. And this year we’ve got a month’s worth of games to judge. That’s not really enough to fully a judge a hitter on.
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Why are there so many people out there that simply bury and write off Brown? Brown is only 24, is a great athlete, but had his development stalled for some time (please note that few had any problems with him when he was considered the No. 1 prospect in baseball a mere two years ago). I think if given the chance, he could be at least an average starter for the Phils today (he proved it last year), with plenty of room to grow. The negativity people feel is more of a product of the failure to meet the immediacy of expectations that come with being the No. 1 prospect in baseball while being so close to the majors.
Great analysis Matt Winks.
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Good question. Short answer: I think fans will be patient with players who work hard, hustle and mind their Ps and Qs while making the adjustment to the Bigs. I look at Brown’s history over the past three years and I do not see a guy who is a hard worker. I do not see a guy who is committed. And I do not see a guy who has any mental toughness. My question is why are fans here willing to put forth a gazillion excuses? The facts are what they are. The guy went to the AFL and tanked for 10 games or so before they sent him home. The guy went to the Winter League and struck out like 10 times in 18 at-bats before they sent him home. The guy went back to triple A last year and hit .217. The guy was passed over this year and has responded with 0 HRs and erratic defense through the first two months.
Excuses are fine, but there’s a clear pattern here. We know he has enormous talent and there’s no way that any player with this talent would repeatedly bomb like this IF he truly were a prepared, hard-working player with a reasonable commitment. It just wouldn’t happen. Don’t be naive.
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He’s 24 years old, John. Of course I am biased because I wrote an article mostly saying that we should give the guy a chance, but you have “moved on” from Domonic Brown. Why? Can you put anything in perspective?
In 2014, if he’s a good baseball player for the Philadelphia Phillies and has matured and developed, will you not buy a Domonic Brown shirsey because you don’t like his mental makeup which you seem to be an expert on without meeting the guy?
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John, I wasn’t going to jump in until I read your last paragraph above. You say, “We know he has enormous talent and there’s no way that any player with this talent would repeatedly bomb like this IF he truly were a prepared, hard-working player with a reasonable commitment. It just wouldn’t happen. Don’t be naive.”
Off the top of my head I can throw out 5 logical reasons why an “enormous talented, prepared, hard-working player, with a reasonable commitment,” could “repeatedly bomb.” And none of them have to do with “mental toughness.” I should also note that I’m not a Dom Brown apologist as I think he was overhyped in general. I am just not a fan when people ignore the existence of rival hypotheses.
Other potential variables at play:
1) Injury – We never truly know the full health of a player nor does a team (usually) fully disclose that information if something is wrong (see: Amaro, Rueben, as an expert in this tactic). Is there is any lingering damage from an injury?….Is that player is overcompensating for something we don’t know about? That he, the player, doesn’t even know about yet?
2) Overtraining – There exists such a phenomenom where being too prepared, spending too much time training, working too hard….can negatively affect performance. I could very easily see this being a potential reason for his issues in the AFL. Playing for 7-8 months straight could’ve easily burned him out. Plain and simple.
3) External Pressure – Who are we to say that there is not something else affecting him? Family, love, money…things that affect the rest of us, even some that may consider themselves mentally resilient. We are human, not machines.
4) Psychological – He could have an actual psychological disorder that is holding him back, reinforcing a feeling of inadequacy or undermining development. Zack Greinke anyone? No one doubts his ability. (See this story from ESPN a few years back: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?id=5067959)
5) Learning – It may seem obvious, but what if the coaching staff is having him try out a new swing or a different approach to tracking fly balls in the outfield? They may have told him that they don’t care about results, they want him to lower his hands when batting for at least half a season and see how he does. Adjustments, even small ones, can take time.
Yes these examples may not be the sexiest or most apparent reasons for his struggles but they are possibilities all the same. My point is, making a generalization like you did while discounting the possibility of counter hypotheses, implying it should be universally obvious, all the while calling someone naive….is the very definition of naive. Unless you are an expert in the human psyche, have an intimate understanding of all professional athletic performance (both present and past), and have been bunking with one, Domonic Brown for the last four years (and that is just my estimate of the requisite knowledge necessary)…there is no way for you or any of us for that matter, to assume we know why he isn’t performing to expectations.
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thank you
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I guess in John’s eyes, you’re not allowed to get tired after playing nearly 8 months of baseball, or it immediately leads to the “non-hard working” attribute John has said time and again about Domonic Brown. Funny because the same thing happened to Mike Trout, Wil Myers to name a few….
Also youre truly misguided if you don’t believe the Phillies did Domonic Brown a huge disservice by bringing him up and then sitting him for close to two months when he was still in his development at age 22. The only way to improve is with consistent AB’s and the Phillies didn’t do that. Amaro even admitted they did him no favors.
Finally motto take anything away from Kyle Kendrick, but he was awful in 2010…he’s been better in small doses, but he’s not exactly the type of player you “win with”. He’s barely above replacement level. Ironically enough, the Phillies gave him 1 1/2 seasons before they sent him down to the minors for being a BP pitcher to lefties.
I know you say you want nothing but success for Brown, but it sounds like you have some sort of agenda backed up by what are nothi more than your own opinion. If you can confirm one legitimate source who has said Brown is not a hard worker and is mentally weak, then maybe you have something.
In addition to Halladay being sent down to HI A ball at age 23, as far as prospects go at 24 Utley an Howard were still in triple A ball, Clif Lee got sent to the minors at age 28…players do make it past age 24…have some perspective.
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Haha, Dom Brown w/ a Homerun tonight…
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Domonic reads this site. Duh.
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Brown’s 1st home run of the season.
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Why ruin this guys career, just trade him. The phillies kept Howard in the minors for 2 seasons too long. They are paying for that now. No one in the outfield , including Pence, has played any better than Brown was laying last season. They should give the kid a chance somewhere else, and stop playing mind games with his career. Plus he has a cool name
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