Jeff Passan, who normally gets things right before reporting, has the details here in twitter form. To very briefly summarize, since an article outlining everything hasn’t been thrown up there yet, teams that go over the slot recommendations by more than 5% will face a tax, and if they go over by more than 10% they lose draft picks. The ramifications here are:
* Teams will no longer be able to pay big bonuses to players that slip in the draft. The Phillies never did this in the first round, but they have selectively done this in the middle-later rounds. This will impact pretty much everyone.
* The talent pool could potentially get gutted, especially in the prep ranks. A high school player with a full scholarship to a top notch program (like Vanderbilt, UVA, Stanford, etc) will now seemingly be unsignable outside of the top 5 picks, and even those guys might be unsignable.
* This will skew the draft heavily toward college talent.
I will have a more detailed writeup on these items when we start gearing up for the 2012 draft. Part of me is pissed, because this is going to really reduce the amount of draftable talent every year. Another part of me thinks this might give the Phillies a bigger advantage, because they have shown the superiority in their scouting abilities, consistently plucking up good players outside of the first 1-2 rounds, which is where most teams are spending huge sums of money.
These rules are going to really impact the freespending teams like Boston, the Yankees, Detroit, Kansas City (still shocking to write) and Toronto, among others, who have been a lot more aggressive in recent years. Now signability for slot becomes the single biggest factor when evaluating talent. What this essentially does is level the playing field financially, but I think its also going to greatly reduce the amount of elite talent available on a year to year basis (especially the next 3 years) and also drastically improve the quality of college baseball talent.
For now, discuss.
Phuture Phillies 
I was worried it was the pancakes
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I don’t know that I agree that long-term it will greatly affect the amount of available talent but rather it will push that talent into being older since more HS guys will choose college rather than accepting a big bonus in the later rounds. At some point, they are going to be drafted and will be forced to sign for slot money or not play baseball.
The only possible effect I see is that it may push some multi-sport high school guys to go to college and play the other sport since “tools” guys who are not drafted in the later rounds and are being convinced to skip playing football for big $$$ won’t have that enticement anymore.
It may also push more money into international signings but I think there are also overall budget limits on signing foreign players as well.
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True, in the short term (the next 3 years) its going to skew heavily toward college, I think. But after that the talent should be there.
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This was my first thought. There should be fewer major draft busts, since the over slot high school guys that fall to the later rounds will now be unsignable, and presumably some of those that would have washed out in the lower minors will now wash out in the college level. This should increase the certainty of draft picks, which makes me think this is why the teams signed onto this, but perhaps that’s just wishful thinking on my part, though.
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We may actually see more Seniors Drafted as Well.
Seems most players come out their JR year, but if the Bonus is less they may actually finish their scholarship out and the get drafted.
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Agreed. Was going to post something similar and I think PP has it right below. The impact in the initial years following this rule will be greatest, but after a few years the talent will be drawn mostly from the collegiate levels, as it should be IMO. Teams drafting 17-yr olds generally end up developing the player to play for another team during his prime years anyway. It also prevents highschoolers from dictating the list of teams who can sign him, which has always been an obvious issue. Good rule change
On another note. If I’m interpreting correctly, the Phils stand to lose their 1st rd pick (last pick of the 1st rd) for signing Papelbon but will pick one slot ahead of the team who signs Madson (assuming arb is offered). Madson will net us a higher 1st rd pick but we won’t get the customary compensatory pick like we would have under the previous CBA. I also recall seeing that only the 1st ten picks will be protected (today it applies to all teams in the bottom half of the standings). In theory, we can be picking some where in the teens in the 1st rd of next year’s draft
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It’s good for the Phillies in that it is now far easier to improve your team via free agents than through amateur talent. The Phillies have far more resources to do so than any other team in the division. But I think it is bad for baseball as a whole.
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The luxury threshold won’t be raised this year and actually shrink in following years. The tax system has also been increased to 42% for first time offenders and 50% for repeat ones. This means that they need to be more cognizant of how much the team spends.
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It will be interesting to see how the draft materializes now. Those middle- late round picks the Phillies usually score on, fall that low because of their college commitment and signability concerns. Since throwing money at them is no longer an option, do teams take a Tyler Greene or MItchell Walding in the second round since the recommended slot amount matches what kind of money they’re seeking or do teams completely pass over them and take only college players for the first dozen or so rounds.
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And is sounds like we’ll get a 1st rounder for Madson plus a supplemental pick if we offer arb. It’s even better then the old system cause the 1st round protected picks are not applicable.
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Yes. And people were killing Rube for the last few days. It is also very possible that Papelbon would have cost a concrete pick anyway under this new system.
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I hope you’re right, but I dont think we’re getting a supplemental for losing Madson. We’ll slot one pick ahead of the team who signs him in the 1st rd (with certain restrictions, else a 2nd rd) but will receive only that pick, not an additional supplemental. Teams losing ‘lesser’ free agents as defined under the CBA can receive a supplemental, but not a 1st rounder.
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I stand corrected. Specifically as it applies to Madson:
Teams that lose a designated player after offering arbitration will obtain a first round pick in the slot before the signing team “plus” a supplementary pick for a total of two picks
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Okay, great – but do we get to use extra money for the picks we’ve acquired or are we still subject to the same collective cap for draft spending? I can’t figure it out, but, hopefully, the cap will increase commensurate with the number of picks the team has – otherwise, obtaining extra picks is something of an illusory right.
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Under the new CBA, teams will have a draft cap in the $4.5-11.5MM range. I suspect, and I was wrong earlier, that the range for a given team in a given year may be defined by a formula using the number of draft picks a team has coupled with their per round draft position. Just my assumption though
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It looks as though the Phils did make a mistake by signing Papelbon a week too soon.
Madson has a higher Elias ranking than Papelbon, so the change in compensation that now applies to Madson would also have applied to Papelbon.
Had the Phils waited on signing Papelbon, they still would have lost their pick at what is now number 30, but they would have gained what is now pick number 31.
If the Phils offer Madson arbitration by tomorrow, they will receive the signing team’s first-round pick plus a sandwich pick.
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I think the change in compensation that applies to Madson applies to all closers that are considered Type ‘A’ free agents.
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Closers not named Papelbon. The CBA is looking at elite players only when determining if a signing team should surrender a pick. We’ll really never know as it applies to the Phil’s signing of Papelbon. We lose our pick as it stands. Had we waited to sign him perhaps Paps would be reclassified in Madson’s category and we wouldn’t have lost that pick. Or, Paps could have been reclassified as an elite player who would require forfeiture of the signing team’s pick anyway.
Unless the Phils has inside knowledge of the new CBA, then they absolutely blundered by signing Paps early. Some here contend otherwise and I’m just not seeing why. Perhaps I’m overlooking something
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I believe that the change in compensation would have applied to all relievers as a category, including Papelbon. The reason I say that is that Madson had the highest Elias rating among relievers, not Papelbon. Since the Elias rating system still applies this off-season, if one reliever were to be excluded from the rule changes, it would have been Madson.
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I’m not a big fan of the changes in the CBA. Obviously now the talent is going to end up much older by the time it reaches the majors. I wonder if the MLB is trying to defer its cost of training its players onto the college game and also have the draft maybe be more like other league drafts where impacts are higher and faster when you draft people.
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Interesting thinking, Chris. The shift of coaching to college to gain more “competent and ready” draftee choices IS a significant cost savings to MLB…which makes up for the 6 year MLB free agent large paydays hurt less.
Like is said, the chances of guessing wrong on “untested” high school draftee choices is greatly reduced by those 2-3 years of college baseball coaching.
Another obvious result will be that draftees will take less time after being drafted to make it to a MLB roster. The percentage of college-drafted players making it to the bigs should increase…a quicker return on investment.
Left out are the questionable large bonuses that have been paid HS players that has been producing fewer MLB players without any college education…and greatly enhance the standing of college coaches across the country.
Question: are there any amendments to the plan?, or are there some things yet to be worked out Re: the draft?
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I think on the free agent front, as pointed out, it helps the Phils as there is less penalty and we’re one of the biggest spenders – so now we can spend with less downside. (Like PP with Kansas City, it STILL shocks me to write “we”(Phils) and “biggest spenders”. Thank you CBP!
On the draft I think it hurts us, with the assumption that we’ll stay consistently good due to the aforementioned financial flexibilty, as we’ll normally be drafting lower. The good talent (once smoothed out over the next few years with the HS/College thing) will now get drafted, in theory, where they should be drafted as there is much less a signability issue. Look at the NFL and the NBA – this just doesn’t happen. Good players get picked where they are supposed to. So there will be less talent that drifts down to us.
That said I think this means we definitley stick with the high risk/high reward “athlete” strategy further down. Look for the diamond in the rough.
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I think he meant spending in regards to the draft.
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One thing I am a little fuzzy on is if the tax on the draft is per player or for the overall draft spending?
Let’s say you spend 8% over on 2 picks each but spend 5% under on 5 picks each. Is it the total over the draft or is it per pick?
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The way it’s being presented right now is that it is for the draft total.
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I hope so.. Otherwise if your 25th rounder who’s slotted for 100k gets signed for 150k the team is out 2 draft picks… yeah that wont work.
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It’s only through the first 10 rounds and only for any pick costing more $100k or more after round 10.
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I like the new CBA……plus now we do not wait until August 15th for deadline signings…moved up one month.
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Can someone explain this to me?…..para 5.
‘5. Competitive Balance Lottery
A. For the first time, Clubs with the lowest revenues and in the smallest markets will
have an opportunity to obtain additional draft picks through a lottery.
B. The ten Clubs with the lowest revenues, and the ten Clubs in the smallest
markets, will be entered into a lottery for the six draft selections immediately
following the completion of the first round of the draft. A Club’s odds of winning
the lottery will be based on its prior season’s winning percentage.
C. The eligible Clubs that did not receive one of the six selections after the first
round, and all other payee Clubs under the Revenue Sharing Plan, will be
entered into a second lottery for the six picks immediately following the
completion of the second round of the draft. A Club’s odds of winning the
lottery will be based on its prior season’s winning percentage.
D. Picks awarded in the Competitive Balance Lottery may be assigned by a Club,
subject to certain restrictions
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Free picks for the lowest-payroll teams. Basically a bone for the Pirates and the Rays of baseball.
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So a team like the Marlins get more picks because they don’t play their players. And you like that.
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Let me translate – the Phillies get screwed again.
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This is a stupid provision for the draft. Basically let’s reward the cheap teams with extra draft picks. Why does that make sense?
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It has nothing to do with a team being cheap. It has to do with a team being in a lower revenue (unable to generate the cash) situation. I’m not saying that I like the provision, but it isn’t a reward to “cheap” teams and I don’t think it has anything to do with “screwing” the Phillies.
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There are ways to hide money. Wayne had Marlins money directed to the stadium and not the team for years and told the idiot press he was losing money which they wholeheartedly reported as truth. How is that being handled?
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+1. I like some things, but rewarding low revenue producers is rewarding failure. Seems common in our society today.
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This is all so odd. When other sports move forward (NFL) or backwards (NBA), baseball seems always to move sideways. I’m not really sure if, on the whole, it’s good or bad, but it’s a bit odd. Basically, the owners and major league players sacrificed the interests of amateur talent for their own collective interests (note that I said “collective” interests because the inability to overpay for talent may benefit the owners as a whole but it places more aggressive or creative owners at a distinct disadvantage). In sum, they simultaneously and artificially depressed the value of amateur talent but are not really allowing teams to avail themselves of such bargain talent by, for example, trading for picks. They have also depressed the value of soon-to-be free agents by requiring that, to obtain compensation for a player, a team must have the player for an entire year. As a result, we are going have fewer trade deadline deals for marquis players about to hit the market. Rather, this rule will all but quash trade deadline deals for top players that are going into free agency and artificially enhance the value of players who are more than a year before free agency.
So, how are the Phillies affected by this and how can they benefit? Well, on one level it will help them because the Phillies are not among the highest spenders. On the other hand, the Phillies will no longer be able to overpay in later rounds for their hand-selected, under-the-radar high upside high school draft picks. However, they will be able to sell the value of being with this franchise to younger players and I think that’s worth something. If you forced me to guess today how it’s going to affect the Phillies, I think they are going to do just fine because, while they may miss on a few players who won’t sign, many will who are committed to playing minor league ball.
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Good read catch. I’m not sure we’ll necessarily see fewer deadline deals for marquis players approaching free agency though. The compensation picks are certainly considered by both trading partners today, but they won’t be tomorrow. In effect, teams looking to move marquee players may come to expect less in return from their trading partner. For one, the team losing the player can’t expect to receive ‘extra’ compensation from his trading partners for compensation picks he doesn’t stand to gain under the new CBA. Two, the team acquiring the player would now value the player to a lesser degree since they would no longer be acquiring the player *and* the picks.
I like the change. It prevents a team from acquiring draft pick compensation for a player they only rented for a few months. And if you’re desperate to acquire a marquee player who is approaching FA, you need to offer more than the value of the two picks the player’s team stands to lose. Which is no different that it is today
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Adding 2 more playoff teams could certianly curtail the non waiver deadline moves as well. There will many more buyers and on the fence buyers then legitimate sellers on July 31st.
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???? How would more buyers curtail moves???????
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more buyers equals less sellers
less sellers equals less available players
less available players equals less moves
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I would love to know what their now fixed budget is by MLB standards and see how close they come to it.
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The way I hope it works is that players will be picked on talent not on signability (because they aren’t getting more later), but the interesting thing with the cap for the first 10 or so rounds, if your 3rd rounder won’t sign than you can spend that money on other players.
I like the international cap because the Phillies have had success with small bonuses to larger number of players and that is what this going to force teams to do.
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The ‘inter cap’ is a good idea…IMO a spearate two round international draft of the top 60 players would have been better, then free spend for the remaining inter FAs. This would make scouting and evaluation more critical. but some semblance of fiscal responsibility is better then no sense of it, as it was in the past.
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Will this change in the draft eventually lead to the demise of one of the rookie-level teams? If all we now have are 22 year-old college seniors, are we really going to need all these minor-league teams? I just don’t see the need to hold on to players for 4 or 5 years in the new system. I see them bringing guys in and figuring out if they are players in 2 years.
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This should make the draft substantially more boring. Will we even need so many late rounds?
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Exactly. There will be fewer surprises and many fewer of any magnitude. First round talent will be drafted in the first round and fifth round talent in the fifth round. Instead of the 15th through 30th populated by kids with a chance to be great someday, probably not but maybe, it’ll be filled with filler.
The second day of the draft will be about as exciting as a curling tournament without beer.
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Is it true that the draft signing deadline is now July 15th?
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yes…..somewhere in mid-July was the proposal.
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I love the changes and think you might be surprised by the results. Let’s take a prospect like Tyler Green as an example. Let’s say he is taken in the 3rd round. He now has a decision to make. Take a guarantees few hundred thousand or roll the dice that he is one of the top 30 players after 3 years of college. Meaning landing in the second round isn’t worth the gamble. So he has to be really sure that he will be a first round pick after going to college. Because he has zero negotiating leverage as a college draftee. I think the clubs win bigtime with this rule. It also makes the draft more pure. It is crazy how the process works now. But now a first round pick is a first round pick.
One other point, it has gone unreported, but by signing Papelbon, we effectively traded up in the draft as well. That is a very significant benefit for trading Papelbon for Madson.
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But some of the best players *do* have leverage; they’re two-sport athletes who are only playing baseball because a team has outbid an NCAA football scholarship. Under the new rules, Domonic Brown is currently an NFL wide receiver.
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Exactly. This will simply push them to other more lucrative sports.
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Well, you can take a severe physical beating to play in the NFL where contracts are not guarenteed other than signing bonus while having a much less lucrative rookie deal thanks to their new CBA or play baseball and hope to cash in after a few years while being less physically abused. Do HS kids sign for less knowing if they succeed the can get to arbitration faster and their big contract comes in their physical prime, as apposed to late 20’s, and then to big guarenteed paydays? who knows how it plays out but football is not really a shiny beacon with their new CBA.
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Football longevity vs baseball longevity is light years apart…plus NFL contracts are the worse structured of all pro teams, and then there is the the injury factor .I just see a baseball future outweighing a football career.
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…and we are talking about ‘toolsy’ athletes correct?
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It may push some to football, but not Dom Brown. He signed for $200,000. The Phillies did their homework on that one.
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If I understood it correctly the Phils need only offer Madson $12 Mil to receive 1st round compensation a no brainer.
I guess what I still don’t get is how a team like the Nationals the past 2 years would be able to sign a Strasburg and Harper. If the cap on your total draft spend is say $11.5 mil and the player you want is going to eat up all or most of that is it worth it?
I guess we won’t really know until we see it in action.
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A first rounder PLUS a comp pick I believe for Mad dog.
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So, let me see if I understand this correctly. The Phillies paid a little more ($7-8 million), to slightly upgrade their closer, most likely trade up in the first round of the draft AND obtain a supplemental first round pick. Sounds like a damned good move to me.
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Not quite right. By signing Papelbon before the deal, they still lose their 1st round pick. If they had waited a week, they would have both the 1st round pick and supplemental pick for losing Madson AND their original 1st round pick since teams no longer lose draft choices for signing type-A relievers.
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Got it. They still are doing quite a bit better than they would have done had they decided to sign Madson, but not as well as they would have done had they waited a week or two. It’s not perfect, but it’s still better than keeping Mad Dog.
On another point, why does major league baseball want to incentivize teams not sign their own free agents where there is an equivalent player from another team available at the same time? Again, another sideways move by MLB or the Union. It’s strange.
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Yea, it’s not a disaster but it was a rather strange decision to jump out and make the deal prior to knowing the details of the CBA.
I’ve been generally supportive of Amaro’s decisions but in this case, he was a bit over eager.
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From what I have read, Papelbon was one of a handful of type A free agents where the signing team will have to forfeit their 1st round choice (as long as not one of the first 10) in any case.
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I think the answer is that agents like Boras will still try to maximize the amount he receives but there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that this rule will SEVERELY reduce the market for these top tier players. Sure, a team might pay a little more, but they can’t pay a lot more or they will either go over the cap (the punishments for which are draconian) or essentially have no money left to pay other draft picks, which would be foolish.
The point about picks leaving baseball for other sports is a good one and baseball is so stupid for setting up a system where these players are incentivized to leave their sport for another. That having been said, I wonder how teams will deal with the late round pick like Dom Brown. First, I think it will be more important than ever to sell the player on the organization. Second, I wonder if we are going to start seeing minor league players paid like real professionals instead of graduate students on a crappy stipend. If I were the Phillies, for example, and I were permitted to do so, I would pay high minor league salaries to my “tool shed” players, but, as I say this, I wonder if there are minor league salary restrictions. Does anyone know?
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I am not even sold HS kids will go to college in large numbers yet. Take an 18 year old, does he take a few hundred thousand less or roll the dice and try to jump up a few rounds in the draft after 3 years of college? after 3 years of college how much more leverage does a kid have? sure his talent is more developed but if he does not sign he can only do one more year of college and as a senior he has 0 leverage. Does this kid take the money at first and if he flames out, he still has cash in hand as apposed to flaming out in college for just a scholarship? If he does sign at 17-18 by 22-23 he is rule 5 or on the 40 man for the big club or starting his big league clock. If he does develop he will have many years to get a big payday as apposed to arriving in the bigs at around 25 and still years from Arb. Is it better now to start your MLB career and development?
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The current salary system for the minor leagues is a follows:
• First contract season: $850/month maximum.
• Alien Salary Rates: Different for aliens on visas – mandated by INS
• Triple-A – First year: $2,150/month, after first year no less than $2,150/month
• Class AA – First year: $1,500/month, after first year no less than $1,500/month
• Class A (full season) – First year: $1,050/month, after first year no less than $1,050/month
• Class A (short-season) – First year: $850/month, after first year no less than $850/month
• Dominican & Venezuelan Summer Leagues–no lower than $300/month
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These salaries are so low it’s criminal. $850 a month to start? $1,500 a month in AA? With all seriousness, these guys are being paid at levels that leave them eligible (or nearly eligible) for food stamps and medicare. And, oh yeah, they have to pay club house dues as Mike Schwimer explained. It’s insane!
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Almost forgot meal money is provided $20 per meal not provided by the club. Some other perks not mentioned here. The team will generally own or hold leases to condos and apartments in and around the minor league complex. Elite prospects are often put up in these units at no charge.
Other lesser prospects often stay with host families or they may group up and do it dorm style splitting the rent. Remember under the old system most of these guys did get a decent chunk of money up front.
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Well, the Silver Spoon view of compensation. Those salaries are all above subsistence level and only covers about 6 months of the year at most. These minor leaguers have yet to earn the right to a full year’s compensation level for 6 months of work, and nothing prevents them from doing something else for pay for the other 6 months. And most on here think it is a wonderful thing, and haven’t heard Whine one when one of these guys goes to College for 3 or 4 years and theoretically receives not cent one.
Word is, these players are trainees, working their way up to being able to generate a return for the MLB club, and any return the generate in the minors is negligible as far as return to the MLB organization.
And the fact is, as applies to the CBA , which is what this thread was supposed to be about, players on the 40 man roster, the only ones the CBA applies to, will make a minimum of around $67,000 per year at AAA and better rates on down.
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This silver spoon stuff is nonsense – the same sort of drivel one hears when they discuss limiting a pitcher’s innings to prevent injuries.
The point is that if you tell a kid who has a lot of talent that he isn’t going to get a decent bonus, he isn’t going to get paid a decent amount during the season and he won’t be going to college when other kids are, that kid is going to turn around and probably go to college and maybe focus on another sport instead of baseball. This is a shame when, left to their own devices, the player and team would agree to a higher level of compensation.
But MLB will get what it wants – control over expenses. The price, however, will probably be a more limited talent pool. It certainly isn’t the first time, nor will it be the last time, that Major League baseball does something stupid.
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People can give the knee jerk reaction about what this will do. There is no proof of any of the results they claim. Probably the same players will make the same decision they always have. There is no restriction of how much a team can pay an individual player or any aggregate restriction on money spent, only disincentives. What minor leaguers are paid is not relevant, and their efforts do not contribute a significant amount to the MLB organization, who , if the team is owned by another entity, only receive a 10% tax from the proceeds. And , if the compensation of minor leaguers becomes too high, they will not have minor leagues, and other than the very top prospects, players who wish to develop can develop themselves through amateur play. Players not at the top level are not deserving of top level compensation and economic returns are negligible on them.
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They get per diem.
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There are special rules for the current free agents in Madson’s class. You offer arbitration as always, and instead of getting the other team’s first round pick , you get the pick immediately ahead of their pick and they get to keep that pick.
Strasbourg and Harper were not given amateur signing bonuses, but were given MLB contracts, at around 3 million a year for 5 years. All draft picks and applicable amateur signings will receive only minor league contracts under the new CBA.
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As mentioned it’s a “devil’s in the details” situation here when talking about what teams will be able to spend re: the draft. That’s the great unknown right now. In effect what they are going to do is slot (assign a value) every single draft pick in the first ten rounds. Then basically they look at an individual team see what picks they have in the first ten rounds, and add up those slot dollars to provide the budget for each team. So the worse teams, with higher draft picks, will have the higher budgets. Pretty easy to figure out. The real question, and the great unknown that will answer some of the two sport star/HS star questions, is “how much”. So if they assign a value to $10M to the first pick and go down that’s a massively different situation then if they assign $4M to that pick and go down.
So while we have the structure of how this works, we really don’t have the most important part yet to begin to guess the effect (well, I think we can “guess” as I am sure cost control is the angle here) which is “how much”.
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Well, people got the word from Twitter from Passan of Yahoo , who I am pretty sure writes about Football also and also lots of other things. Fact is there is no restriction on any amount a team can pay for an individual pick, and no restrictions on the aggregate amount a team can spend.
Passan and these other guys with the Sky is Falling stuff on Twitter had their articles written 6 months ago. The aggregate amount of money spent in the draft will increase from last season. And teams will be assigned pool money for the 1st 10 rounds, after the 10th round any players that sign for $100,000 or less will not count against the pool. Alot of the HS players after the 10th round that signed in previous years were for less than $100,000. And, there is nothing to prevent signing players in the 1st ten rounds for less than their pool number (under slot) just as in previous years.
A team can work the system to sign any player it wants, just as they did in previous seasons to stay within their budget.
As to the whizbangs in other sports that will all run to play as professionals, the players that can legitimately play professional in another sport and also be a viable baseball player is not one in one thousand.
It is said, the draft pools will range from 4 1/2 million to 11 1/2 million. Teams can sign whoever they want within that range, and the tradeoff between College attendance and the monetary rewards will remain about the same.
And if a team which finishes with the best record or so, decides to massively violate the guidelines every year, the penalty is simply they would never have a 1st round pick and they would pay 100% tax on the over amount. If they go over their , say, 4 1/2 million pool , by 4 million for a total of 8 1/2 million paid to draft signees they pay another 4 million in tax for a 12 1/2 million outlay in the draft.
Teams have spent that much in the draft under the old system, and a team could conceivably choose to operate like that.
The teams more penalized would be at the top of the draft, and this might work for equalizing things among teams rather than keeping amateurs from signing contracts/
Not a big deal.
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I am for anything that keeps gifted kids out of the hand of vulture college coach who will ruin or damage a kids career without a thought (see Atlee Hammaker for one of thousands. This state is in light of the fact that the NCAA has done nothing to protect college players
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My two cents:
I’m still unclear on the precise penalties if Phils go over slot–both within the first 10 rounds and after. Can someone spell out exactly what penalties will entail on the various possible signings. Is there still an enticement to sign a Dom Brown guy, when your scouts tell you he has great baseball instincts and has solid star potential (those were the reports on Brown, despite his raw skills, lack of experience, and football possibilities). While I’m clear the new rules will reduce late-rounf overslots, I’m not sure thy will be eliminated-you may not have 4-6 overslots in later rounds, but you might have 1 or 2 if the penalties are not prohibitive and the investment/reward ratio is right.
Are Phils no longer under pressure to be the good boys in the draft, traditionally trying to follow Selig’s rules like good league soldiers. Sure they’ve done some overslots recently. And their lower-than-market-standing spending is based on a combo of internal budget considerations and Selig loyalty. But could the new rules enable them to consistently spend to the max? Please correct me if this is wrong.
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There is a listing of the draft penalties on http://www.mlb.com and on ESPN New York, or something that spells out the penalties. Up to 5 % over the cap, it is a 75 percent tax on the overage. Then, as I recall, 5-15 percent over still a 75 % tax plus the loss of a 1st round draft pick, Then in increments it goes to 100% tax loss of 1st round pick, 100% tax loss of 1st and 2nd round pick, and 100% tax and loss of next 2 first round picks and like that. MLB.com has it alll in the press release.
A team can spend whatever they want, given the penalties. Teams with worse records will have a higher pool before taxes come in. How teams in various situations play it remains to be seen.
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The big question to me is how does the deal impact the Cespides signing? Will the signing team not have any money left to sign anyone else in this year’s draft?
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Amateur Free Agent signees will be considered as 23 and below. Cespedes is 26. He would be considered as an MLB Free Agent. Also there is a separate pool for Foreign signees and Draft signees.
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I don’t really see this as effecting the Phillies much… it’s a cap on total spending, not individual slots. Teams have the choice to go overslot on somebody, (i.e. Stephen Strasburg) but that impacts the rest of their draft.
The Phillies can go over slot on as many guys as they want as long as they stay within the cap.
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not in the 10th rd or later. if they go over 100K for signing, they’re hit w/ a tax..Dom Brown, Tyler Greene, Mitch Walding, Jarred Cosart are just a few examples of players phils would not have had a chance to sign w/o going way overslot in the later rounds
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It is not based on a per draft pick tax , but on a total draft pool tax. If a team spends over $100,000 on a pick after the 10th round, if they are still under the total pool number they don’t get taxed. The same goes for the first 10 picks also. When the total pool number is exceeded, the amount it is over it is subject to the tax. Not on a per pick basis. A pick after the 10th round the amount it is over $100,000 it will be added to the 1st ten picks total, and then maybe there is a tax.
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What Scott Boras has to say about the new CBA:
‘Boras argued that the new rules governing draft spending will affect baseball to the highest reaches of the league – he said that the limitations on spending could lessen the value of franchises. His case: the penalties for spending over an allotted amount will restrict the creativity and effect of scouting acumen of front offices, making it more difficult to inherit a losing team and turn it into a winner through the draft. The franchise values, I think, are going to be affected by this,” Boras said. “New franchise owners such as the Lerners can no longer rely on the draft to improve their franchise in a major way. The GMs now have less flexibility, less ability to do it. It’s going to take longer to improve your team in a meaningful way. “It used to be, the owner could think, ‘I’ll hire the right people, I’ll have the scouting intellect.’ Now artificial behavior prevents that. I think the decrease in values of GMs and scouting is a loss. We’re not changing the value of where we place our players,” Boras said. “We’ve proven the value of what those players are.” If that holds true, the small-market teams presumably picking at the top of the draft would have to pass on those players or risk incurring a tax that may include the loss of another first-round pick the next year – the kind of commodity that has become the lifeblood for teams like the Rays and Athletics. Meanwhile, teams at the backend of the draft – the Red Sox, Phillies and Yankees of the world – could afford to pay and the tax AND would not be as hurt by perhaps giving up a pick in the next draft, figuring it would not come until late in the first round, anyway. “If I’m a GM of a big-market club, I’m going to go after that guy,” Boras said. “I’ll pay the tax. The other teams up top can’t get them. I’m going to get them. There’s real incentive to sign one great player. It’s better than getting two mediocre players.”
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Translation into English: “This hurts me personally financially and thus, I am against it.”
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bingo……and the owners, for better or worse, like that outcome. He, along with Rizzo from the Nats helpedt generated a lot of the changes concerning the draft.
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And you can bet come next June/July Boras will be outfront challenging the owners and the draft restrictions when it comes to representing his high draft picks.
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So there will be a much higher importance on doing your homework to find out if/ how much a kid will sign for prior to drafting him. Another big question is how much the dollar value will change in between picks. e.g. Pick #1 is $10 Mil and Pick #2 is $9.5 Mil or $9 Mil.
One kid could now ruin your draft more than ever…With there now being a $ figure assigned to each pick in first 10 rounds, do you foresee kids now saying… unless you draft me by say pick #8 don’t draft me… I realize the $ figure is just a suggestion and a team can offer more, but offering more will cause problems signing other picks.
Do you signing later picks becoming more like college football by signing the kids for $100,000 but then having ‘Boosters’ etc give them free cars, jobs, agree to pay their college tuition, etc to make extra cash the team can no longer offer legitimately?
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this will probably hurt the pitchers the most as college coaches are prone to abusing star pitchers.
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A good argument to make to high school pitchers to convince them to take the current near-slot money with a better chance at a healthy pro career.
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“Well son, you could take our deal or you could use your scholarship to Rice. You must choose but choose wisely.”
“Yeah, I’ll take the deal.”
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Phil’s extend arb offers to Rollins, Madson and Ibanez. Yes, Ibanez
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If boras doesn’t like the new cba, that means I love it!!
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In a general sense I think this helps the Phils who generally don’t spend much in the draft.
Rooting for the Narlins to sign Madson. Would love the 9th pick.
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The rule for FA’s such as Madson, is the team losing the player gets the pick prior to the pick the signing team would ordinarily give up (2nd round or later) not the team’s 1st round pick.Protected picks are still protected.
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Do you have a link for that? Because everything I read said the pick before the team’s first
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Top 15 teams…best 15 teams from year prior… lose the pick, the bottom 15 are protected from what I have read. Marlins are protected since they were a bottom 15 team.
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Let’s say Madson signs with the Sox. Jimmy with the Phils and Raul with anyone. Phils will pick 7 spots ahead if their fortitude pick and they get 2 sandwich picks. Not bad. Under the new rules would they have paid for 2 1st rd picks and 2 sandwich picks?
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But suppose Ibanez accepts the arbitration offer? I think the Phils would be on the hook for at least 80% of his 2011 salary, or around $8.8M for a guy who the Phils presumably don’t want. That would suck, and seems like quite a gamble to garner another draft pick.
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Unless of course we can operate under the assumption for once that Ruben isn’t a complete moron. He has his share of bad overpays but those were for premier players. He knows Ibanez isn’t that anymore and I think they have some kind of agreement in place for him to decline the offer. Ibanez is well respected among all players and I feel like he’s the kind of guy that it would be possible to make this kind of agreement with.
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Gentlemen’s agreement is undoubtedly in place between Ibanez and the Phils. It would be a disaster otherwise
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I’m sure you’re correct, but a gentlemen’s agreement isn’t binding. Offering Ibanez arbitration to Ibanez puts the Phils in a vulnerable position with no legal recourse if Raul decides to get crazy. Just saying.
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The CBA recourse is that arbitration awards are not guaranteed until the season starts with player on roster. If , hypothetically, a player agreed not to accept arbitration and did they could be immediately released and the player would only be due 30 days termination pay.
If , in Ibanez’ case he got an award of what he made last season at around $12 million and the season is around 6 months long, so let’s say that maneuver would gain him around $2 million . A blatant lie like that would probably lessen the reputation of player and his agent, and the player would probably get that as retirement pay so it’s a tradeoff.
The team, in this worst case scenario, is really gambling $2 milllion in hope of gaining a supplemental draft pick. I think Nobody would approve of that risk.
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Selections after the 10th round don’t count against the signing bonus pool, as long as those bonuses are below $100,000. If owners want to spend big on the draft, then they can spend big on the draft: Hand out $99,999 bonuses beginning in the 11th round and watch the adding machine churn
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Just glad Scott Boras and his strong arm tactics will no longer be major factors of the draft a they are every year.
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don’t count him out yet, as he said ‘,… we’re not changing the value of where we place our players, We’ve proven the value of what those players are.” …be prepared for him to challenge any GM that tries to stand behind the CBA slotting restrictions.
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Yeah because teams will happily pay over slot PLUS a 75% penalty PLUS givign up a future 1st round pick just to make Boras happy.
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Yeah…..if it is a HS kid…..then he threatens to go to college…and exactly where does that leave the team then???? a high pick unsigned…a waste of a valued pick..not what teams want, do you think?
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Once at the mercy of college coach many will not come out the other side especially pitchers. They may not get the best medical care or advise also.
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college coachs are dancing with joy over the MLB CBA…it benefits the collegiate venue.
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from what I’ve been reading, I think they can just use that money on later pick(S) They could then get a cosart colvin or brown type. Is this true?
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The first ten round segment there is an allocated aggregate pool money…that has a threshold. After the 10th round, in theory, a team can drop $99,999 –putting you under $4M– on each pick thru the 50th round and not worry about busting the draft cap.
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Following is merely speculative at this point, but the Phils slot in next year’s draft should look something like the below. The Phils lose their own 1st rounder for signing Papelbon. Corrections welcome
1st Rd (slot TBD) – Loss of Madson
Supplemental – Loss of Madson
Supplemental – Loss of Ibanez
1st Rd (slot TBD) – if Rollins signs elsewhere
Supplemental – if Rollins signs elsewhere
Potentially 5 picks before round 2 next year. Have I misstated anything?
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sounds correct to me….just one hiccup….5 picks before the 2nd, then nine more before the 10th round ends. Thats a total of 14…….what is the draft cap threshold for the initial 10 round segment? Phillies could end up busting it. I am sure ‘marfis’ has more rational and explanation on this.
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Draft cap is a rather obscure range (4.5-11.5m or something similar). I suspect the number of picks a team has, as well as their draft position, will define where a team falls within this range. Just a guess
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I figure , theoretically, that the pick for Madson and the maybe for J-Roll might be a 2nd rounder if he/they go to a bottom tier team or later than that if it is a team that signs multiple free agents. According to a John Heyman tweet the pool number for the last pick in the 1st round is 1. 6 million (Philly original pick). So, if they sign with a better team it should value as slightly more than that. Figure that each pick is assigned a value, and since they don’t know how many supplemental and compensatory picks there will be should decrease by a small increment on down from that..
Heard that total pools will range from 11.5 million at first pick in draft and pool on down to 4.5 million to the last pick in 1st round plus pool (for the 10 rounds). But with the possibility Philly doesn’t get a pick in 1st round there total pool might have an outside possibility of being less than 4.5 million.
Still think the draft will be relatively similar to previous drafts , and the teams with higher picks will be more inhibited in their spending than teams back in the draft.
Also, I think some are overlooking that teams forfeiting picks for overspending will have their picks put up for lottery selections by teams that stay under.
Heyman’s tweets on draft choice pool numbers:
1st pick: $7.2 million
2nd pick $6.2 million
3rd pick- $5.2 million
4th pick- $4.2 million
5th pick- $3.5 million
6th pick- $3.2 million
last pick in 1st round – $ 1.6 million
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Ben Nicholson-Smith reports:
‘Here are the six remaining players for whom teams will have to surrender a top draft pick this offseason:
•Prince Fielder
•David Ortiz
•Albert Pujols
•Jose Reyes
•Jimmy Rollins
•C.J. Wilson
………no Ryan Madson??? Just a supp.?
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Madson will not cost signing team a pick. He is among a group of Type A Free Agents that the team losing them will not get the other team’s 1st round pick , but the pick immediately ahead of their pick while they retain their pick. (Also Michael Cuddyer, Josh Willingham, etc.) This is a transitional rule toward the new CBA.
Also Buster Olney says (by a report I seen, it is on Premium part of ESPN) that Ibanez has definitely agreed not to accept arbitration.
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That’s right. In effect, there are two categories of Type-A’s this year. Madson and a few others (I think kelly Johnson is one) will result in a 1st rd in the slot ahead of the signing team, wherein year’s past, the signing team woulld forfeit their pick outright
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I know you’re just presenting a hypothetical situation, but failing to resign Rollins would create a big hole at a key position that would be very difficult to fill. And let’s not get started about Glavis for 2012 – he’ll be at AAA.
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Every agreement ends up being slanted toward the players. Why is this any different. I don’t see owners as looking at the long term because they never have.
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Slotted drafts benefits the fiscal policy of the owner…no more Harper/Strasberg contracts. Same goes for international signing bonus’, fiscal responsibility is essential, especially for the samll market teams.
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Ok but there has to be a glitch that benefits the players overall or why would they have signed.
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sure….benefits players, like min wage goes up to $500,000 annum, and also benefits owners—draft bonus’ are kept in check…but amateur players are not part of the union and veterans rather keep the money coming to proven MLB players. BUT, lets see what happens at the July trade deadline……let us see if there is any movement….one year rentals are now considerably more expensive…no compenastion when they walk.
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Yeah, do see it benefiting players. Both current players through an arrest of the rise in spending on amateurs and the amateurs will still get plenty. Contrary to what looks like the beliefs of some on here, high school players will still continue to sign contracts, probably at much the same rate as before, perhaps even more because the system does not look like it will change much in the future. Adding together the allotments of money to picks, it is greater than the money spent on last season’s draft. It is not a rollback , but an effort to hold things in place.
There are no slotted picks , only a suggested guideline for each pick, with prescribed penalties for an overall overrunning of the total allotment.
I figure the draft will work pretty much as it always has, taking out the extra picks for the low revenue/low performance teams.
These teams will be inhibited from going over their allotment not by monetary constraints but by the loss of an early draft choice.
The big teams , though having a lower overall pool number, can still sign more players if they pay the tax on the overage and are willing to forgo ever having a first round draft choice. Yankees have not had first round choice for years at a time and Philly missed having one for years at a time before. If they spend they can still get some top players. Pittsburgh spent some 17 million last draft. The big teams could afford that much, I figure. So , if their allotment is 4 1/2 million
and they actually paid 10 3/4 million to players I figure that would be right around the 17 million figure. They Yankees have often been around that figure and have often been without a first round choice, so I believe they could continue to operate in that manner.
I don’t believe this will cause much harm to the players, and the Union would not have agreed to it if it did.
Teams will benefit first off by selecting the right players, and learning to be skillful in working the system.
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Also teams can give out 40 $100,000 contracts in the last 40 rounds or so , without an effect on their total pool number. Many High School players in those rounds would have signed for $100,000 in the past and more would in the future.
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I think marfis is correct. Draft spending in 2012 is unlikely to go down much, if at all. It certainly won’t reduce what the Phillies spend. Let’s say we sign 4 guys for an average of $350,000 each in the rounds after 10 and two more at $100,000. That still would allow us to spend at least $3.5 million in the top 10 rounds and have total draft spending of $5 million, plus whatever late round player we normally sign in the $10,000 to $90,000 range, so let’s say a total draft budget of $5.1 million, assuming that we are the team that gets the smallest allocated draft budget. If we wish to, we can spend an additional $220K above that, with a very slight monetary only penalty. So, a $5.3 million draft — doubtless more than RA was planning to spend and certainly more than he’s spent since he’s been GM.
Same with the international bonus. Even if we are the team with the lowest allocated ceiling, that’s still more than RA has ever spent, so no penalty there either.
Where I think RA does get pinched is in the cap (where the luxury tax kicks in) on the major league payroll. That isn’t rising for 2012 or 2013 and it appears that RA needed it to rise and was planning a budget of about $200 million. So, likely one less big contract permitted in 2012 and going forward than we would otherwise have had.
The upside is that we won’t have other teams spending more than us on their major league payroll. However, except for the Yankees beating us in the WS, we haven’t been edged out by the teams with payrolls larger than our own.
I think the changes force RA to focus more on both the draft and international signings and a bit less on the big FA signing and the trade for other teams’ big contract starts. To me, that makes things all the more interesting. RA has to be smarter and change strategy a tad. It will be very interesting to see what he does.
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are you sure…after round 10, each pick is restricted at $100,000…the aggregated pool only involves the first 10-round segment…this is how I read it.
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The Picks after round 10 do not count against the total limit, so long as the amount is $100,000 or less. So the Phils could give a bonus ove $100,000 after round 10, but that would count against their cap. In practice, it’s highly unlikely players after round 10 get over $100,000 unless for some odd reason an early high valued pick does not get signed.
Since there will be some picks that are not signed in the 1st 10, there will be flexibility.
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The picks after the 10th round are not restricted to $100,000. The pool for each team for the 1st 10 rounds is set as a guideline for what a team should spend. Any pick after the 10th round less than $100,000 does not count against that number. If a team signs a player after the 10th round for higher than $100,000, the amount they are over on that will be added to their total money spent in the first 10 rounds to see if they are over the pool money for tax purposes. If not, no problem.
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Agree with Marfis here; Every club has a amateur draft cap which is dictated by the draft slot of each team’s first ten selections. Bonuses after the tenth round don’t count towards the cap as long as they’re under $100K. Teams will face limits in the $4.5-11.5MM range, according to Jon Heyman of SI.com )
The key here is that teams are not prohibited from over-slotting. Instead, they’ll face penalties when they do overslot .
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The earlier signing deadline will be great benefit to teams like the Williamsport Crosscutters.
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IMO the MLB owners, with this CBA and its long-term after effects, are trying as close as possible to emulate the formula the NFL uses for player development, i.e. have the NCAA bear the brunt of the cost of player development, and reap a more advanced player. College coachs throughout the country are behind this new CBA seeing favorable results for their collegiate programs. For the MLB owners there would appear to be a savings in the minor league systems and less risk. Of course, they cannot incorporate the entire process the NFL utilizes but any small portion of it will save them from future expenses and increase their revenues.
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This seems true. It appears we will be seeing more of the available talent coming through the college system, with some development savings, but also the abuse some of the pitchers suffer.
This will be a significant reduction, but not an elimination, of HS signings in later rounds. We will still have the guys who change their minds late as the summer advances. Guys who have big upside, but have some flaw that requires correction or are simply raw. Guys who the scouts simply misread on their intentions. And so on.
All teams have to do is make sure their bonuses, however large, fit into the overall cap. So Phils will not be penalized when they trade prospects for lineup-ready players. On the contrary, they will have more freedom to do so.
And, as I said early in this thread, one of the budget restrictions they have is gone–the strict slot, which they have traditionally respected, only signing expensive high schoolers in later rounds when they began trading away guys and have gotten more competitive. While internal budgetary contraints and mindset have been more decisive factors, I think the Selig slots, and the Phils old good soldier attitude, was a significant determinant in their draft spending, and I see that eliminated now.
Also, they can still draft cheap in R1, with a pre-draft agreement of a lower guy, and spend some of the savings for later guys.
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Don’t see this massive reduction in the amount of HS signings. Things will probably remain about the same. The choice allotments are about the same as players have always signed for. Last draft the Pirates were able to lure the ungettable, supposedly, Joshua Bell for 5 million to lure him from the grip of Stanford, and the Astros are allotted 7.2 million for the 1st pick , so they could get a guy similar to that, and I don’t see many HS players pulling more than that. Yet there is nonsense above about no more HS signings, only College Seniors being dratted now, the end of the Rookie Level Leagues, and on and on and on.
The teams at the top of the draft have enough to get HS players by allotment, and other teams can work the system to get them, just as always. The Rule 4 draft is not turning into a College Player only thing.
And some may think that Strasbourg and Bryce Harper got $15 million bonuses or something , they did not, they got MLB contracts (no longer allowed for draftees) for about 3-4 million a season.
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Then explain why all the college coachs are now happy…..more then a mid-July sign date I would think.
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Is there any kind of compensation in future years (as used to be the case) if say a 1st round pick does not sign? And if a 1st round pick does not sign, can that 1.6 – 7.2 million of “pool money” be split up among any of the remaining 49 draft choices? I still see a lot of unknowns here which may not be known for quite some time as well as a number of scenarios that would allow teams to continue to go overslot in later rounds by simply not signing 1 or 2 early round picks. I don’t really know how much it will affect the teams that really want to spend.
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I hate to agree with marfis, but look at the caps. The salary cap structure put in place by the new CBA is roughly $200 million. In the 2011 draft, there was roughly $130 million spent on signing bonuses. There will be little, if any, change in the number and types of picks signed.
What will change is the international signings. It may not affect the Phillies as much because of their current philosophy, but teams like the Rangers and Yankees will very much be affected.
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More of Scott Boras on the demise of baseball with the new CBA…interesting he voices a few similar overtures to marfis’.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2011/11/mlb-labor-agreement-scott-boras-bud-selig-draft-rules/1
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Totally agree. By the numbers reported, the Phillies CBA quota for signing FA seems to equal or exceed their normally budgetted limit for bonuses. The Phillies can do exactly what they’ve done during the RA years and not be pinched at all by the CBA. This is likely the case for most teams. What the CBA seems designed to do and likely will achieve is to slow the future escalation of signing bonuses. So, the only effect upon HS draftees is that their agents will not be able to inflate signing expectations year after year. Adjusted for inflation, 2020 bonuses are likely to be pretty much what 2010 bonuses were. This won’t drive multi-sport draftees to the other sport, since the other sports are not increasing bonuses. The NFL is the greatest competitor and they have reined in signing bonuses.
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The NFL pays much higher guaranteed bonuses. A 3rd round pick for instance gets about a $600K bonus and then a 4 year contract totaling $2 to $3 million. That means they get 600K guaranteed and most will make a roster for at least a year and get another half million or so.
In baseball it is only first round picks and now not even the sandwich guys that will make much more than a million. Baseball can have bigger money, but it is after 3-5 years of non-existent pay in the minors.
This will hurt baseball somewhat, though it will be hard to see until we have a couple of drafts to look at it. Baseball players also have less access (much less) to college scholarship money, so they will not automatically play baseball in college. It will be interesting to see the new multi-sport player rules in practice.
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Seems no one saw the Jim Callis article in Baseball America, fleshing out some draft details.
He issues a long list of explanations.
Seems the biggie is that : to paraphrase: if a team fails to sign a pick in the top 10 rounds they can not transfer that money to other draft picks. The amount allotted for the pick will be subtracted from the pool number. Seems they think that will advantage the usual suspect teams and produce a draft similar to what was seen in the past.
HOWEVER: If a team is able to get a player signed under the allotted amount the amount left can be transferred . Looks like if a team can’t sign a high upside well regarded player they lose that pool allotment , but if a team plans ahead to draft an “under slot guy” they can have it for later rounds. Time will tell if some play like that.
Also , draft will be reduced to 40 rounds from 50. Not to mention the supplemental , compensatory, and competitive balance picks. Also picks acquired through a Supplemental Draft can only be traded in season, not the offseason.
People should consult Callis’ article . It is in the Draft Blog, in the free category .
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Jonathon Mayo says that 13 teams will qualify for “competitive balance Lottery” in 2013 draft (after results of 2012 draft are known). Based upon qualifiers among 10 smallest markets and 10 lowest revenue teams. List includes mostly the usual suspects. Surprised to see the St. Louis Cardinals, though. Also Brewers, Reds, and others not so talent challenged.
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Any rule that prohibits a person occupation even while in high school is kind of ridiculous. If you’re allowed to work at McDonald’s or Starbucks, you should be allowed to work in the minor leagues. We are talking meaningful employment!
Personal decision on the part of the person and their family – private decision on the part of the people conducting the draft and signing process.
But instead you have to go play for the NCAA
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It sounds like the Reds are in serious talks with Ryan Madson. I believe the Reds own the number 14 pick which is in the top half of the draft. Under the old system, we would get a supplemental and second given their draft position. Under the current system for modified Type A, the team who loses the player gets the pick ahead of the team that signs the player plus a supplemental pick at the end of first. Does that mean we would get the number 13 pick? Can anybody confirm
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