This link does not come from ESPN/Fox/SI or any of the big sites, but it appears to be legit.
If Oswalt approves, and the prospects the Phillies are giving up are named, I will provide the analysis here. Should be an eventful 24 hours or so. In the meantime, discuss away!
1:27 AM –> All the big hitters now picking up on the Fox Houston story. We’ll see in the morning.
10:37 AM –> Rumors flying. One indicates its Happ, Worley, and Rizzotti for Oswalt + Cash. Another indicates its Happ, Worley and Singleton for Oswalt + Cash. I won’t have analysis on the trade until its agreed upon and the names are confirmed from all parties. I’m aiming for thorough, thoughtful analysis, not sloppy and fast analysis. But my initial thought is that either deal is a win for the Phillies, and I’ll have a ton more later.
1:32 PM –> Strongest rumor yet is that it is Happ, Worley and Gose for Oswalt plus cash. What a massive win for the Phillies.
3:05 PM –> The deal is done. Take all discussion of said deal to the new posting. Thanks, management.
Phuture Phillies 
as long as Cosart, Colvin, May, or Singleton are not traded, I’ll be ok.
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I hear its Happ and 3 prospects. I’m ok with this as long as no more than one of the following are included: Dom Brown (obviously won’t be), Scott Matheison, Trevor May, Brody Colvin, Jarred Cosart, Anthony Gose, Jonathan Singleton or Jiwan James.
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Drew you gotta assume one of them may be involved.
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We don’t have to assume anything. This is Ed Wade we’re talking about.
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The astros are more enamored with big league ready talent then projectable prospects with higher ceilings. Which is fine with me. I don’t think anyone from Clearwater or Lakewood will be moved. Happ, Worley and JC Ramirez would be in the astros rotation in 2011. I think thats what Houston is looking for. I dont know who the 4th player would be but I cant see it being a high level prospect.
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if they can get oswalt without giving up cosart, may, colvin or singleton, i would be thrilled, i remember reading somewhere that they definately like gose, how about happ, gose, rizzotti and hyatt
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I had been hoping they’s eschew trading for a pitcher, and let Happ keep starting and bring up Worley to fill the 5th man role instead of Kendrick.
I’d hate to lost Happ: there is no other lefty starter in the system that is anywhere close to thew bigs.
I’m also greatly concerned with Oswalt’s injury history; it seems he has spent lots of time on the DL in the last several years.
Hoping a prospect chosen is Rizotti who deserves a good shot, and because he could be spared and if he is traded that means another prospect won’t be lost unnecessarily…though it’ll probably be necessary to lose another in the trade.
LOVE to keep Happ; he’ll win many for Houston.
Remember Ferguson Jenkins….?? A throw-in who made the Hall of Fame.
Happ won’t make the Hall, but I bet he’ll be a good winning pitcher for years to come….
Very wary of losing Happ….
It really is one starter for another plus a weakening of our prospect “army.”
Hunh!?
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Wonder if Rizzotti is the 4th player, given how well he has played this year…?
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…who is the others/upplemental player the Phils usually gain in a trade?
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Please do not compare JA Happ and Fergie Jenkins.
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People are over analyzing Roy Oswalt. He is still a big time arm. His fastball has not lost 1 bit. Hes pitched and dominated in big games. I was in college in Houston when the Astros made the World Series run. I cant wait to see him pitching healthy in a pennant race.
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we better have kept singleton. cosart and colvin. The angels gave up nothing for haren we should give up even less.
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Really want to know who the Phils are willing to give up???
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Oswalt has an injury history? He pitched 200+ innings every season from 2004 to 2008. 180+ last season. On pace for around 200 this season.
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considering the phils will be giving up a proven ML starter in happ, they shouldn’t be giving up cosart, singleton, colvin or may
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I am also wondering just like Peco Pick, who the phillies gave up?
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Phillies are interested in Jose Bautista according to MLB trade rumors/Bob Eilliot of the Toronto Sun, besides the finances we’re started to get a little crowded when Utley and Vic comes bacl where would this guy even play, apparently we’ve scouted him in the last 7 games though and his contract is cheap at this time, but I’ve heard there are doubts the Phil’s can even make payroll with an Oswalt deal
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PP, he was comparing the situations not the players. He even said that Happ was not going to be a HOF. You run a great site but you are a moron.
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Rather have them go after Alex Gordon. He’ll probably cost less to get.
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Hey, Anonymous, if he wasn’t comparing Jenkins, why even bring him up? And Happ’s not a throw-in to the deal at all, he’s the centerpiece. The situation’s aren’t the same in the slightest.
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Hspp’s career FIP: exactly 4.50, which is basically dead on average. career strand rate: 84%, which is as unsustainable as it gets. also, this year he’s walked more guyd than he’s struck out. he is not magic, and i would not mind trading him for roy oswalt at all, because oswalt is miles and miles the better pitcher. happ is an average at best starter. we don’t need left handed starters, we need great starters, and oswalt is a great starter. our rotation would be what, Halladay, Oswalt, Hamels, Blanton, and Kendrick? thats a huge improvement.
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How can I run a great site if I’m a moron?
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Hey Clancy don’t really care for you or name…However, should be an interesting day at 93!
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i feel that i should mention the average major league strand rate is something like 72%
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I’d be upset if there is any real talent thrown in along with Happ.
On an unrelated note, I remember someone mentioning Singleton getting some playing time in the outfield. How much/when? Or am I just misremembering something?
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PhuturePhillies I feel you run a great site, hopefully rizzotti is part of the deal so every daily discussion can stop being an argument about him as a prospect.
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mlb.com saying that singleton could be included.
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MC you make a quality arguement. That’s why I like this site. But PP just said not to compare Fergie and Happ. Where in the post did that guy directly compare Fergie and Happ?
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JPD…Just read that also. Says Astros GM personally went down to Lakewood this year
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Depending on the rest of the package, I’d actually probably be okay with including Singleton, for reasons I’ll go into once the deal is done and approved. For now, sleep
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I will be very angry if its Singleton. If it is the astros need to be eating close to half the contract and Happ shouldnt be included.
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I dont know after reading that. I still highly doubt Singleton is in the deal.
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Supposedly from someone connected to agent Bob Garber, the deal is as follows:
Phillies Receive:
SP Roy Oswalt (Phils agree to renegotiate 2012 buyout from $2M to $5M)
2B/Utility Jeff Keppinger
Cash Consideration of $8M (roughly half of Oswalt’s remaining 2010 salary plus buyout)
Astros Receive:
1B Jon Singleton
P JP Happ
P Scott Mathieson
OF Anthony Gose
Take it for what it’s worth.
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Am just posting a post someone else posted somewhere else. Just wanted to know what people think of this, but I don’t like this trade.
Phillies Receive:
SP Roy Oswalt (Phils agree to renegotiate 2012 buyout from $2M to $5M)
2B/Utility Jeff Keppinger
Cash Consideration of $8M (roughly half of Oswalt’s remaining 2010 salary plus buyout)
Astros Receive:
1B Jon Singleton
P JA Happ
P Scott Mathieson
OF Anthony Gose
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lol nvm
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That’s ridiculous. The Phils are the only serious bidder for Oswalt and that rumor has them paying like it’s bid war.
If Rube agreed to this I’ll join the chorus for his head on a platter.
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If that true…Phils are going to take that in rear for years.
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That package would have been good enough to get Haren
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that deal is ridiculous.
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Thats way more than what it took to get halladay, cliff lee or dan haren. might as well give them utley
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Seriously though for all that we should’ve gotten haren who is also owed less money next 2 years and is much better and without the minor back problems.
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Jesus why not take a few arms and legs, that deal wreaks of desperation but it needed to be done, I don’t know about at that cost though but whatever. I love how we get rid of our only option to have someone other than Lidge as a legitiment closer
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WILL DOMINGO SANTANA GET TRADE ? I HOPE NOT……
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I have a feeling we’re all going to get some sour news in the morning. Rube will make the Lee deal look even worse if he gives up Happ and 3 legit prospects for Oswalt.
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If that is what the trade really looks like, I hope Oswalt rejects the trade
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I have no problem trading Happ, but I’d rather not do the Oswalt deal if a top prospect is involved. On the other hand, if we get Oswalt, the Phils would have a formidable three-man rotation that could take them far in the playoffs for as many as three years..
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What is Ruben thinking? This man has no plan for the future at all. I just don’t get it. This man traded Cliff Lee to replenish the system and 4 month later he depletes it for Oswalt. This trade won’t completely deplete the farm because it is still strong, but come on. This is obviously Ruben’s attempt to cover up the mistake he made when trading Lee. I just can’t imaging what Ruben does to try to cover up this mess, assuming he doesn’t get canned.
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teh more I think about it I have a hard time believing that the names as outlined above are real for Oswalt
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i hope you are right because the phillies supposedly balked at the astros request for singleton to be included in a trade, so if singleton really is included i guess amaro just sucks at negotiating, phils give up more for oswalt than halladay that makes alot of sense
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If that really is the case, Ruben should be gone. Honestly, that is just ridiculous if true. You don’t trade Cliff Lee for 3 decent prospects, then turn around and give off a Major league starter, a bullpen piece, a great hitting prospect, and another decent CF prospect for a guy significantly worse, just for some damn salary relief.
Especially when you’re not bidding against anyone! Seriously, I’ll flip if I see that reported on ESPN.
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Sheets is out for the season. One mistake Ruben can’t make.
Happ for pitching is nuts.
Every player they trade would still be here is they hadn’t traded Lee. That is a fact like it or not.
“The trade that keeps on taking”
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Let’s see Raul with a little rest hit .326 for the month. Brown is up. Werth woke up,
Ruiz has corrected his swing and is over .300 since coming back. Happ is back yet we are in panic mode.
I would take the wild card rather than gut the farm system AGAIN.
How can Ruben go from the great move of getting Lee to getting outsmarted by the dumber than dumb Mariners and now (OMG) Ed Wade.
Pay all of Oswalt’s money and give Ed more money and a bucket of balls. Since you will be losing millions since the Lee trade starting with wide butt Blanton.
What a mess.
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Considering that they have the best ML scouting department they’ve ever had…maybe even the best in baseball right now, I’m not worried about the future.
This is the best team in Phillies history… You have a chance to win multiple World Series titles. You have to do what it takes to win now, and sometimes that involves making tough decisions about prospects.
I’ll admit, the Cliff Lee deal was definitely a mistake. I think the true story is that RAJ’s hands were tied, and that ownership was unwilling to raise payroll. Despite what everyone might think, the object of owning a professional sports team is to make money. The Phillies do not have the same revenue resources as teams like the Yankees and Red Sox, who own their own TV networks. The fact that they have a payroll this high os actually pretty astonishing, and I be the owners are actually taking a pretty big pay cut in order to sustain it.
Also, this also isn’t the same situation as the Haren trade. LA took on ALL of Haren’s contract. It looks like we are getting cash plus a utility player as a throw-in. Of course they would have to give up more in that situation.
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“According to ESPN.com’s Jayson Stark, the Phillies would send left-hander J.A. Happ and two prospects to Houston for Oswalt.
Happ was the 2009 Rookie of the Year runner-up and the prospects could include a low-level player and possibly the IronPigs’ Vance Worley.”
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well that gives me a little hope Peco.
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This hand ringing over JA Happ is comical. The only tough loss in that package is Jonathon Singleton. Although I would prefer to trade less, and take Fausto Carmona, that is a fair deal.
The Phillies would be trading more, to get a top 10-20 pitcher AND 8 million dollars. 8 million covers ALL of Oswalt’s salary for this year, plus ALL of the buyout in 2012. Honestly, I don’t see what the purpose of the trade is from Houston’s standpoint.
I look at it as the Phillies trading Happ and Gose for Oswalt, and the team trading Singleton for 8million. That is more than fair if you look at it objectively.
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I can accept Happ, Worley, and filler for Oswalt and cash.
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I’m not sure why they took Werth off the market, especially with Brown up and everything.
Honestly, I don’t know if Oswalt can handle the big stage in Philly, I hope that if he comes hes great, but I just don’t see why the phils would give up the farm for him.
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Happ won 12 games last year despite starting in relief and finishing hurt. You on the other hand are pointless Mike.
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anyone but Singleton, please.
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If Roy came here to win why didn’t he insist that Lee stay since that was the best path to the WS. I am beginning to doubt ole Roy’s word.
Maybe he even insisted that Lee go that would fit the facts.
Does anyone believe he didn’t know Lee was being trades??
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“SP Roy Oswalt (Phils agree to renegotiate 2012 buyout from $2M to $5M)
2B/Utility Jeff Keppinger
Cash Consideration of $8M (roughly half of Oswalt’s remaining 2010 salary plus buyout)
Astros Receive:
1B Jon Singleton
P JP Happ
P Scott Mathieson
OF Anthony Gose”
This is a good deal for the Phillies, the only real loss is Happ, lets look at this Singleton is a 1st baseman, he is blocked not only by Howard but also at this point by Rizzotti. Plus 1st baseman are not hard to find. Gose is one of how many speedy centerfielders in this organization? Both GOse and Singleton are good players, good prospects but they are redundant in the organization. Now Mathieson could haunt us, then again he might not, has to be something to him not staying here when he was called up and other players like Worley etc getting the call over him. PLUS Keppinger is a solid player. He will help this team and is a major upgrade to Valdez as a backup and is a good player to have playing 2nd until Chase is healthy
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Losing Singleton (if this rumor is true) will be the worst part of the deal. The kid looked like he might be special (Dom Brown special) and could make Howard expendable in about 3-4 years.
But hey, RAJ knows exactly what he’s doing. So far he’s completely taken a torch to this farm system since he’s taken over.
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Can’t compare the Oswalt deal to the Lee deal. Its natural to do that but Oswalt is here beyond this year, he will be here next year and possibly 2012. He still will be less money dollars wise than Lee who will get a minimum of 18 mill over 5 years in free agency. Would I have kept Lee yes, hindsight Amaro probably would have also, but its time to move on, give Amaro credit for admitting a mistake and getting Oswalt (Pending his approval)
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Matt he has taken the torch to the minor league system yet Baseball America says they have the most talent in the minors league A ball and below, he just called up the best prospect in baseball in Domonic Brown? I can tell you right now you are underestimating this system. It continues to produce players who help us and it continues to give us players to trade for major league players like Halladay and Oswalt
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Who is the better pitcher Oswalt or Haren? I heard this yesterday they had agree on the players,why are we as the only team that is after oswalt giving up a top propect like singleton, plus a major league starter,who was second for roy, plus gose and mathieson. dont mind gose , because I believe you have James and possibily Atheer in the wings,
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Lapeatus – I agree that the system has rebounded nicely since losing Drabek and Taylor. I was in agreement with those trades.
But this I think is too much. You’re trading Victorino’s replacement (don’t give me this BS about James either, he’s not going to be an MLB player) and Howard’s replacement.
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Coudln’t they haven’t gotten Haren for Happ, Mathieson, Bastardo, and maybe maY? Wouldn’t that have been the better deal?
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Kurkjian just said they are still pretty far on a deal. Both on money and prospects!
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They way the Phillies will view the situation (and I don’t necessarily disagree with them) is that First Base is the easiest place to find help, and Singleton was so far away from the Majors that the odds of him even reaching the bigs combined with the odds of finding a replacement his caliber in the next 5 years or so are worth making the trade. As far as Gose is concerned, I personally think James is the better prospect and I think most scouts will agree. Then again, we have no idea if this is the actual deal, although I think it’s probably safe to say Singleton is gone. If you look at how many top prospects are first basemen, I think its pretty easy to visualize the Phillies finding a very good first base prospect in the next couple of years. Also, like others have said, the Cliff Lee deal has nothing to do with this deal.
Lee was walking after this year no matter what. Oswalt is under control for potentially two and a half years. That means next year they’ll start the season with a top 3 of Halladay, Hamels, and Oswalt, which everyone wanted for this year with Lee. The only reasonable complaint is that we traded for Oswalt instead of Haren, but I would be willing to bet that had to do with the Dbacks preferring Saunders over Happ, and being somewhat obsessed with Tyler Skaggs. I have no proof of this, just a guess
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I think too many people are over-valuing Happ. He’s a late 20s pitcher who is unlikely to be much better than what he is now: a middle-of-the-rotation pitcher.
Per trading Singleton, I was against the absurd number of years Amaro gave Howard; I guess this move would solidify any chances of Howard becoming available for a trade in the near future.
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Matt never saw James or Gose play, have you seen them? You say it’s bs that James is better than Gose just wondering how you came to that ? I don’t know anything about either of them so if you can tell me would appreciate it thank you.
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As frightening as hearing singleton’s name is, keep in mind that this is a rumor from a source close to oswalts agent. stark said its happ plus two which would contradict that. he said one might be worley (at this point i’d rather it be mathieson) and the other is a low level player. sure that could be gose or singleton, but it could just as easily be hyatt or way, in which case we’d argueably be giving up less than what we got for lee. happ is seemingly the centerpiece, whereas if js was included he would no doubt be the centerpiece and his name would have been bandied about like happ from by legit sources from the beginning. i’d be hesitant to include worley as that would leave us with zero depth behind the front five. who would get the call if a starter went down?
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Aside from Singleton, the trade consideration looks very reasonable to me. I would hope that they can slot in a couple of other good players in substitution for Singleton – some combination of Valle (we have Rupp, I’m not worried about it), Hyatt, Bastardo, Worley, Schwimer (sorry Mike), DeFratus, Rizzotti . . . . you get the idea. And it’s not crazy for Houston, either. Houston is so bad that they are going to need a lot of good players in addition to future stars. If the Phils think he Singeton play OF (and I bet he can), I don’t think I’d trade him. We’ll see, but, you have to admit, having at least 2 and a half years of Halladay, Hamels and Oswalt in a starting rotation really does make us the class of the NL for a good chunk of time and you can’t ignore that. It also should put a halt to the semi-annual “Oh my God, we need to trade a lot of prospects for a good starting pitcher” ritual which is getting really, really old.
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Catch, I agree with all of that, it just seems like a wild overpay in light of what the Phils got for Lee and what the DBacks got for Haren, if both Gose and Singleton are included. From all the reports, there is no one else bidding for Oswalt, so to give up this much when the Phils have leverage would be a bad sign of Amaro’s negotiating skills.
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Give me a few names of successful converted pitchers into OF’s in the minor leagues.
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Stan muscial, babe ruth , ted williams, rick ankiel. left odoul, to name some
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Uhhh – if you take the rumor as true, then you have to consider the additions of Keppinger & $8MM. That’s HUGE and makes the requirement of additional prospects necessary. I mean, $8MM might actually help pay for Werth next season (if you dealt say Victorino).
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I have really stayed away from all the Cliff Lee was a practical move / bad move / horrible move discussions. But while I am happy to get Oswalt for another pennant race, I can’t help but feel that his acquistion seals the deal…for me at least…that the Cliff Lee trade was a mistake. I personally would rather have Cliff Lee over Roy Oswalt.
I am not going to trash Rube over it. I can’t pretend to know what he was dealing with when he made the deal (money, farm system, length of deal, Werth re-signing). So I won’t call the Lee deal “horrible.” I will just call it a mistake.
I might get more upset if he gives up too much for Oswalt.
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The two names I keep hearing are Happ and Singleton. I hate to lose Happ, but Singleton is blocked and has been in a slump; Reuben might be selling high on him. Oswalt saves a lot of money over Lee, even without the givebacks; Lee would have been 9 million; at this point Oswalt would be under 6 million for the rest of this year.
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There are rumors that the Phils are interested in third baseman Jose Bautista of Toronto who is having a breakout year with 30 hrs already. He only makes a couple of million bucks this year. Hard to evaluate as . I haven’t heard anything about which prospects Toronto would want. Also, once Utley returns, does Bautista become a backup? What do you all think abut this?
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SIFPA – I’d say if Keppinger comes back in the Oswalt deal then we aren’t interested in Bautista. Keppinger is a bridge to Utley’s return.
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Singleton’s in a slump. He’s like 19!
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Given Ed Wade’s proven predilection for speedy CF types–Golson, Bourn, etc–I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if the low-level player was Jiwan James. Remember, he was on a ridiculous tear last month, which was when Wade supposedly made his scouting trip down to Lakewood. Just a thought. I’m not going to lose too much sleep over any of this, so long as the deal isn’t incredibly one-sided–you have to give up something to get something, and I feel like teams (and fans) are overvaluing prospects more than ever before. Happ is a middle of the rotation starter. If one of the two or three prospects we give up turn out to be something special, well, that’s the cost of doing business. I wouldn’t mind having All-Star Michael Bourn in the Phils outfield, but then we probably wouldn’t have had Lidge in 2008. I realize all of this is self-evident–I just think we shouldn’t get to carried away with the breast-beating until we see the package of guys, which should be soon. Or never at all, considering the fact that Oswalt still has to give his ok.
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There’s two rumors out there regarding the terms of the deal, one of which seems high, the other of which seems like quite a good deal for the Phillies. And neither rumor may be true. Can we at least wait until we know the terms of the deal before we start bashing Amaro?
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MLB is reporting Singleton and Happ. Once those two are involved, the difference between the rumors are Worley/ Matheison & Gose. That doesn’t make a huge difference to me, its the Singleton part that matters.
I am starting to tire of deals including cash. I dunno what to value cash at, but as an unconnected fan of the farm and the MLB team, I value Singleton more.
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I love the trade because I love Oswalt, having covered him since he’s in the minors.
The guy is a flat out horse and he’s pitched on the biggest stages in the past.
I’m playing for right now and having Halladay, Hamels and Oswalt as your 1-3 makes your pitching in the post-season and down the stretch as good as any in baseball.
I hate losing any of the prospects in the deal, especially Singleton, but he’s a prospect and heading into this season, he wasn’t on a lot of lists to begin with. He’s found money and if he delivers Oswalt for a couple of quality years, then great job scouting staff.
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Jr, he is only 18, but you can have a slump at any age. If you don’t believe me, take a look at the middle of Domingo Santana’s GCL season, when he went from hitting about .400 to about .200, before a bounceback, and he is only 17. Singleton will probably bounce back, but there is no guarantee.
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MLB’s report that mentioned Singleton was more of an inference than reporting: Ed Wade was sighted in Lakewood, ergo he’s interested in Lakewood’s best player. MLBTR now says Ken Rosenthal (who is usually right about this stuff) is reporting Happ, Worely, and “two younger pitchers.” That could mean Hyatt and Way, or it could mean Colvin and Cosart, in which I fully expect half the people on this message board to commit ritual suicide. And I might, too! I guess we’ll see.
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Matt I think you are looking too far down the road as far as Victorino’s replacement. Victorino is only 29 (will be 30 in November) and is signed for another 3 years. During that time they could draft and develope another centerfielder or Gillies (who has had a lost year due to injury but is not old at 22 he could be ready by mid next year) James or somebody else could come along. Remember Gillies has a career .311 BA .405 OBP in the minors in 1100 or so ab’s. He is a legit centerfield prospect. I think just because he was part of the Lee deal and he has been injured folks tend to downgrade him too much.
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I was merely musing at the idea of making a decision on Singleton based on a current slump. But then we are talking about Wade and that’s when he saw Jon.
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Looks like Singleton is not in the package…. Jon Heyman saying that Happ and Worley plus 2 younger pitchers…
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Happ, Worely, and “two younger pitchers.” That sounds like its way too much. I seriously doubt either Colvin or Cosart would be part of that but I wonder if a guy like Jesus Sanchez or even Aumont could be part of that. I guess we will know when we know.
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I should clarify, it makes the Phillies 1-3 starters as good as any in baseball.
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I would rather Singleton than Cosart OR Colvin.
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Hardballtalk.com says the deal is Happ, Worley, and Rizzotti (not Singlton)
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I fear that Amaro will justify overpaying for Oswalt by thinking at least they will get 2 first round picks for Werth after he signs elsewhere. Then, of course, as the draft rolls around, draft guys not on potential or performance, but rather signability, further evidencing the faulty logic of trading perhaps higher end prospects in one deal to replace those prospects with lesser ones later. I think I have seen that somewhere before.
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Look on the bright side, in the offseason, the Phils may do something like trade for Carmona and then trade Oswalt for less than he acquired him.
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Houston needs help now and Wade’s job is getting shaky. A deal involving prospects that are major league ready or almost so makes the most sense. Rizzotti>Singleton.
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macho, was that a back-handed dig at the Biddle pick? Since when have we been drafting guys on signability?
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“Hardballtalk.com says the deal is Happ, Worley, and Rizzotti (not Singlton)”
Yes, please.
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PLEASE BE HAPP/WORLEY/RIZZOTTI.
Singleton is a rare, rare player at age 18. IDK if people know, but Singleton was actually an OF in HS, so if need be he can play OF while Howard’s deal plays out. Then, at the age of 25 when Howard’s deal is over (I think) he can take over first base.
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Man, I hope they don’t trade quality pitching from the minors, how about Rizzotti or some other position players, pitching wins championships and we won’t have it after Halladay is gone nor any one from the farm system. Ruben is killing the farm system more than I thought possible. It all goes back to Cliff Lee!!!!
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I hope the Oswalt deal does include Rizzotti instead of Singleton. Both for the Phillies and for Matt. It means they keep Singleton, and Rizzotti is completely blocked in Philly. I hope Matt goes to Houston and is a quality MLB player for them.
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I would sign a Hymn to RAJ if the deal was
“Hardballtalk.com says the deal is Happ, Worley, and Rizzotti (not Singlton)”
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Did anyone notice the bleacher report on oswalt, saying his back is shot?!?! I swear to god if this is another freddy garcia i’m going to cry.
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I’m worried about Oswalt too – for many reasons. That being said, Happ, Worley and Rizz are worth the risk imo.
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That makes more sense. Wade needs major league ready players now for impact or he and Tal will be run out of town before any young low A ball players are ready. Phils then will face Myers, Worley and Happ in Houston’s rotation in August. Rizzotti is ready take Berkman’s spot at first if they do not exercise his 15$ club option in 2011 .
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Stark was on Mike and Mike and said the Phillies would give up more for Oswalt than they got for Lee … but that’s not really saying much!
I just believe there is NO WAY that a prime prospect goes here (Singleton/Colvin/Cosart/May). I think the biggest prospect that COULD go is Gose, but I don’t think he will either. If they are talking “young” pitchers, I would doubt it would be Hyatt, possibly sanchez. Can’t be Biddle as he can’t be traded for a year. Maybe someone in the Julio Rodriguez/Sanchez/Pettibone/Shreve mold.
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a guy i work with, his wife works for the phillies and just called him and stated that Oswalt is a phillie, 2 of the guys going are Happ and Worley
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SIFPA, good point Riz>Jon wrt Wade.
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There are too many versions going around to take any of them too seriously at this point. This new journalism can sure be frustrating at times.
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Wow pretty exciting morning huh. Let me start by saying I’m not in love with Oswalt based on his back history but when he is healthy he is pretty filthy and would be far and away the best #3 in baseball, and I would love the phils chances in any playoff series with him.
As for the players we would be parting with, I hate to lose Happ because he has always seemed like a good guy and serviceable (and at times better than serviceable) pitcher, but we all should realize that he isn’t likely to ever come close to posting a sub 3 ERA again. Singleton as a center piece is really teh only hard piece to swallow since he is about as blocked as any player in the minors with Howard in place and under a long term deal, not to mention he is probably 3 years away and in that time teh Phils will have a chance to draft for teh position and depending on how you feel about Rizz we might already have someone were Howard to ever get injured.
As for Gose/Mathieson or Worley I would much prefer to lose Gose/Mathieson. I know we all have a soft spot for Mathieson based on what he has been through but lets be realistic, he is a power arm but his fastabll is flat and his secondary stuff isn’t very good he can overpower AAA hitters but he has never really had major league success, even prior to his surgeries when he started for the Phils his numbers weren’t good. I’ve said it before but Gose and Gillies and James and probably 2 or 3 guys they draft every year are very similar players, now Gose might be slightly better than many of them but losing him shouldn’t be a deal breaker.
I like what Worley has done this year and I’d prefer to not lose him if you don’t have to as he provides good depth. If Cosart and/or Colvin are included in the deal, however, I think that means Ruben got played a little, you shouldn’t trade future aces for 2 years of an aging ace
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BRody COlvin cant be traded either, he signed August 17 last year.
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I like what Worley has done this year too – help make it possible to get a guy like Oswalt.
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I have no idea what Hardballtalk.com is, but I think we should probably trust what guys like Stark and Rosenthal are saying here–they have actual sources. The price is likely to be higher than we’d like, maybe much higher. I’d imagine they’re talking two high-upside pitchers in the Colvin/May/JC Ramirez mold. That sounds like too much. Then again, have we heard much from Jason Knapp lately?
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Owais … Colvin could be traded as a player to be named later. That happens all the time, just look at the Angels/D-Backs deal. My comment about Biddle is that no team would wait that long for a trade. They’d easily wait three weeks for Colvin, though no way the phils will include him.
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Owais, Colvin can be moved as a “Player to be Named Later”
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Can’t see them having to give up a real high upside guy, but it all depends on how much salary Houston eats. The more they eat, the better prospects we have to give up. Economics and Baseball … not so perfect together.
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Rich has it exactly right. It’s all about comps. You have to compare Oswalt to Haren, their respective contracts and what Az. got back for Haren. Haren is 3 years younger with a better injury history and signed at more reasonable money through ’12. I consider Saunders and Happ a relative wash in that Saunders is probably the better pitcher right now but Happ is 2 years younger with a bit more upside. The remainder of that package was pretty unimpressive. Moreover, it is clear that their are NO OTHER SUITORS FOR OSWALT. For these reasons, if Amaro gives up anything of significant value above and beyond Happ, I’ll be disappointed. If Keppinger and cash come into play, perhaps things change a bit.
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By getting Rizzotti to play first next year Wade buys out Berkman for $2 million and saves Dayton McLane from paying the $15 million club option for him in 2011. That frees up money that then can be sent to the Phils to help them pay Oswalt’s contract. In one deal Eddie gets rid of a $16 million contract and a potential $15 million contract for next year and replacing them with the rookie minimum salaries of Rizzotti and Worley plus Happ. Brilliant, Simply Brilliant!
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That’s my only fear, is that we have another Freddy Garcia situation.
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Most recent report on SB nation says the compensation is Happ, Worley and Rizzotti. If so, this is a very good outcome, probably for both teams (particularly if Houston picks up part of Oswalt’s salary). Houston gets a good, low cost replacement at first base and it gets two middle-of-the rotation type guys. And we don’t give up any of our stud prospects. Okay, it’s a bit of fleecing of Ed Wade . . . but did we really expect any less? Oh yeah, in a related news story, Ed Wade left the meeting with a black eye and reports were that Ruben Amaro now has his lunch money.
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@Nobody – I would rather have Cliff Lee too instead of Oswalt, but the difference here is we can have Oswalt for 2+ years, while Lee would have likely walked after this year. A 1-2-3 punch of Halladay, Hamels, Oswalt will be hard to beat for the next two or three seasons! The only downside is, Lee has repeatedly expressed his desire to return to the Phillies after the season, and this would shut the door on that (although it would be a long shot anyway unless he would be willing to sign a shorter term deal)!
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fyi . . . Roy Oswalt is NOT Freddy Garcia. On most teams he is an ace or, at the very worst, an excellent number 2. If he comes to Philly he will be the best number 3 in baseball and, IMO, only the SF Giants will have a staff to compete with ours, but their bats are way, way behind us. The best thing about this is this sets us 1-3 in the rotation for another 2 1/3 years . . . long enough so that our stud youngsters can start filling places in the rotation. A succession plan . . . imagine that!
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Dan,
Your mistake is comparing an Oswalt deal to the best possible deal out there. There are always a ton of variables at play in any deal, but I have said it before and I’ll say it again — you don’t get something for nothing. You just don’t.
True it seems there are no other suitors, but who thought the Angels were a suitor for Haren until the last minute? Who thought Lee was going anywhere but the Stankees before the last minute?
There may not seem to be other suitors but in a way the Astros have us over a barrel. The Phils are at an extraordinarily unique time in their history. How often do prospects pan out en masse like Rollins, Utley, Howard, Hamels etc? How often do you pluck stars lie Victorino and Werth off the scrap heap? Very rare. A Phillie fan of 35 years like myself can tell you with painful memories how very rare this opportunity is.
With Oswalt, we can win another World Series. Without him we simply cannot. And we can hang on to our prospects and flounder about for another 50 years. I’d rather pay the premium prospects and make the most of this incredibly unique time. Take it as far as we can before these great players call it quits.
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@Dan K
Please link an article where Lee said he wants to return to the Phillies.
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Jon Heyman tweeted
“heard #phils, #astros were discussing happ, rhp vance worley and 2 younger pitchers. could be package for #oswalt.”
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Jake – why is this time so unique? We are one of the premier clubs in baseball with a big payroll and one of the best farm systems. Not exactly sure how that leads to “floundering around for 50 years.” Plus, there is ALWAYS another deal next year or the year after that requires prospects. Lee, Haren, Halladay, Oswalt. I would like to have some ammo the next time a Lee or Oswalt is on the market. Overpaying now only crushes us later.
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I would’ve liked to keep Happ, but you gotta do what you gotta do and Worley, Rizz, and Happ for Oswalt is definitely a good deal for the phils.
My only worries about Oswalt are his health and whether he can handle the big stage at Philly, but once again, the phils aren’t giving up much so its a risk I would take.
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Ed Wade should be fired on the spot, if he accepts Happ, Worley and Rizzotti for Oswalt. Either that or the owner should sell the team.
Have to believe the younger pitcher in the deal would either be May or Ramirez, if Singleton is not part of the package.
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My other question is what the phils will do with Werth since they’re not trading him and brown is up already
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@Max that tweet was an hour ago. Catch posted the latest deal (Happ, Worley and Rizzotti).
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Sam,
Sorry, I was a little slow. Thanks for the update!
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Can we stop with the Oswalt-Garcia comparisons? Garcia was hurt all off-season and the Phils failed to give him a physical when they traded for him. Oswalt hasn’t missed a start this season, and he has pitched well all season.
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Trading Rizzotti does make sense for both clubs. For the Phillies his value is at an all-time high and Howard’s contract means there is no place for him. Singleton has more of a shot at LF than Rizzotti. For Houston they will be looking for a 1B in the near to mid future, so Rizzotti is a guy they would want.
I do believe Houston will need one higher end potential prospect. Whether that would be Gose or one of the young pitchers is unclear. I don’t think they will demand all major league ready prospects, though getting Happ and Worley would answer that need. Happ, Worley, and Rizzotti would be a great deal for the Phillies if that is all there is and the Phillies are getting some cash. Have to think that a 4th prospect will be in the deal however.
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I like the idea of a “big three” starting rotation of Halladay, Hamels and Oswalt with a back end of whoever from a group including Kendrick, Worley (if he’s not traded) and whoever you can get when you trade Joe Blanton. (make it happen Rube)
Of the prospects rumored to be traded I would miss Worley and Gose. I’ve been a big supporter of both on this site. Oh well. The price you pay.
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What’s worse, comparing Oswalt to Freddy Garcia or Oswalt to Jon Niese?
http://www.metsblog.com/2010/07/29/buzz-phillies-and-astros-agree-to-deal-roy-oswalt/#comments
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You cannot slam Wade for a deal when you don’t know what the true parameters are. The economics of baseball have changed DRAMATICALLY. In the past, you were able to trade the quality player AND his salary for good prospects. Now, you can only trade one if you want quality. If they trade of Happ, Worley and Rizzotti includes the Phillies taking on all the salary, that’s actually a very good deal for Houston. If Houston picks up a large piece of salary, then maybe it’s not as good. The other thing you need to look at is the market. There don’t appear to be any other teams looking for Oswalt. Then it boils down to what’s better, keeping him and his salary, or taking the best you can get? I’d think they need to move him for whatever they can, they are not going to contend while he is playing, so cut bait and do the best you can. When you are in that position, you will not get top value for your player.
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“Jake – why is this time so unique? We are one of the premier clubs in baseball with a big payroll and one of the best farm systems. Not exactly sure how that leads to “floundering around for 50 years.”
Well, you may be right that we can stay on top. Possibly. We do have a top 3-4 payroll. As long as the fans keep selling out the Bank, ownership has shown they will put the money back into the team. But like I said, I have the perspective of 35 years as a fan. The times where the Phils are good were very few and far between. 1950. 1980. 1993. 2008-09.
“Plus, there is ALWAYS another deal next year or the year after that requires prospects. Lee, Haren, Halladay, Oswalt. I would like to have some ammo the next time a Lee or Oswalt is on the market. Overpaying now only crushes us later.”
Exactly and the Phils farm system keep churning out nice prospects out of 3rd, 5th and 8th round draft picks. Look at how many prospects we have trade so far and every time this board goes nuts. How many do you wish we had back? Bourn maybe. Gio? Maybe. Prospects are just prospects until they do anything. To get a proven ML star, the price is three good-to-great prospects. It’s still such a longshot for a general “prospect” to reach Oswalt performance that you have to give numbers to make up for that variable.
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This is starting to remind me of the Bobby Abreu trade.
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What is a little scary is the value of a mostly developed prospect. It sounds like the Astros throwing $5 million in a deal would be worth the addition of a prospect like Gose. Knowing that a good prospect is worth $5 million shows how important it is for the Phillies to always budget an extra million or two for tough signs in any draft.
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Heyman tweet:
hearing #astros are paying a lot of $ to philly in oswalt deal. he has $24 mil left thru ’11.
I’m starting to think that Singleton is part of the package.
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Here one of the pitchers involved is either Cosart, Colvin, May or Zeid.
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Rosenthal tweet:
Source: Deal is 3-for-1. Happ in. #Astros would pay “very significant” part of Oswalt’s remaining salary, which is over 23M
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Last I seen, before reading these 100 some posts , From Jon Heyman: Going Happ, Worley, and 2 pitchers from a lower level than Worley, I’d say from Clearwater. Okay Stark just on First Take and says Keppinger included and the imprecise and controversy stirring in the ESPN manner claim that Philly gives up more than they got for Lee. I say Oswalt , Keppinger, for the first claim above more likely.
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“The Astros will receive three players for Oswalt, tweets Rosenthal, while also paying a “very significant” part of his salary. Happ will be one of the three.”
I can’t see how we don’t part with an elite prospect. If not this would be an astounding win for Ruben.
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Ken Rosenthal:
Source: Deal is 3-for-1. Happ in. #Astros would pay “very significant” part of Oswalt’s remaining salary, which is over 23M. #MLB #Phillies
Happ, Worley and Rizzotti/Singleton?
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Friends — mlb.com is not reporting that Singleton is involved. This is what they wrote: “Astros general manager Ed Wade also personally scouted Philadelphia’s Class A Lakewood affiliate earlier this month. First baseman Jonathan Singleton, an eighth-round pick in the 2009 First-Year Player Draft, could be included in the deal …” That is purely the writer speculuating. He doesn’t attribute idea to any source, named or anonymous. He doesn’t even suggest that someone whispered to him that Singleton is involved. He’s guessing. He’s the Astros beat writer for MLB. He probably heard that the Astros like Singleton (who doesn’t?), and he probably doesn’t even realize that there are other prospects at Lakewood who might command Ed Wade’s attention.
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I’m guessing the package is Happ, Worley and Singleton.
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@Clyde – http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20100704_Inside_Baseball__Cliff_Lee_keeps_an_eye_on_the_Phillies.html
Also, Randy Miller (reporter who covers the Phils) was on 610 this morning and said Cliff Lee still keeps in touch with many of the players, a lot of the players on this team is still very upset he was dealt, and two of the Phillies’ owners told people at the all-star game that they had no idea Lee was being traded until after the deal was completed. Apparantly Montgomery didn’t clear it with (all of) the owners.
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@Sam – if it is in fact Happ/Worley/Rizz, than a major coup for RAJ. We get the second best starter that was available without putting a dent in our farm system since we are selling high on the two prospects included in the deal!
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@Dan – I agree with everything you said but with more info coming out, I’m starting to think that its Singleton being traded not Rizzotti.
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I think we are forgetting that Happ has legit trade value. He was a candidate for ROY last year with a sub 3.00 ERA.
Happ/Worley/Rizz sounds like a decent deal to me all things considered. Wade needs pieces now to continue salary relief, and those three pieces would certainly help.
This deal alone would clear 16 Mil of Oswalt’s salary (assuming they chip in 8M to the phils), plus 15 mil next year if Rizz is able to step in at first. Happ and Worley are also both cheap and solid starters to fill out a decent rotation.
At the very least it buys Ed Wade some time in Houston.
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If the Astros are going to eat a significant amount of salary as reported, there will have to be a stud prospect included. I’d prefer any pitcher to Singleton vwe have much more depth in pitching b
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Wow, if its happ worley and rizz for 2 years of oswalt and cash relief, sounds like the phils are highway robbers
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Agreed, Happ, Worley and Rizz is a STEAL.
Even Happ, Worley and Singleton isn’t a bad deal, especially with salary relief.
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Any deal that doesnt involve Singleton, Cosart and Colvin is ok with me. In that order. People talking about Singleton slumping… hes not striking out and hes still taking walks.
Gose is replaceable, there are multiple outfielders in the organization, Happ, Worley etc are good players but again there are plenty of quality pitchers at various levels.
Singleton Cosart and Colvin may be far away but they are special.
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Considering the age differences between Rizzotti and Singleton, obviously I am so hoping that it is Rizzotti in the deal. Rizzotti is completely blocked in Philly and only has value as a trade piece. Now would be the time to sell high if possible. As good as Singleton is, he could wait 5 years in the minors and still only be Rizzotti’s age (24) when called up in 2015.
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I wonder how Oswalt feels about the possibility of having Lidge blow his wins again…
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Touche, Jim…
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The stories seem to be converging on Happ, Worley and Rizzotti or Singleton (unless Heyman scooped them all).
My first guess is that they are all right in the sense that all three packages were discussed. My second guess it that it is Rizzotti if we pay all of Oswalt’s contract and Singleton if we do not.
If this happens, the once belittled Phillies farm system has acquired 3 #1 pitchers in a 12 month span (I know we shed one for the other). The first (basically) cleared out the Wade-era prospects, and the last two are (basically) products of Gillick/Amaro era drafting.
I find it hard to complain.
And we still have some prospects on the farm:
C: Valle (A)
IB: Singleton (A)/Rizzotti (AA)
2B: Garcia (AA)
SS: Villar (A)/Galvis (AA)
3B: Overbeck (AA)
OF: Santana (A)
James (A)/Gilles (AA)/Gose (A)
Castro (A)
Not to mention the pitchers. When is the last time we could field such a team of prospects across the system?
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If the Astros are also giving cash in the deal, it’s likely going to be Singleton.
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shhhhhhh – don’t say we have to give up Singleton if they are throwing in $. Ed might be watching!
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If Jonathan Singleton turns out to be the next coming of Manny Ramirez or even Joey Votto, then it is NOT a steal.
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I wonder how much salary relief we get
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Big, fat ‘IF’ Catch 22.
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My intuition is that Oswalt is not going to accept this trade. If they thought the trade was going to happen I feel like the prospects and terms would be well defined.
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Maybe it’s just me, but how does Ed Wade, who likely has only 1-2 more years to prove his worth, benefit from getting Jon Singleton? The kid is at least 3 years away from the majors. Or perhaps I’m just inclined to think this way because I really want to keep Singleton.
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If Singleton stays with the Phillies, we won’t know if he’s the next Ramirez or Votto until 2015…and that is a LOT of seats at CBP between now and then.
(seats that would be subsidized by a big, fat check from Houston if it is Singleton we trade, BTW)
Question – would you rather it be Cosart or Colvin (two guys who could theoretically be in the rotation by 2013/14) than Singleton?
Obviously, I would rather it be none of them…but if the deal is Happ/Worley/Rizz, then the check to offset Oswalt’s salary is small – probably just enough to cover this year. If the Astros are sending us a big enough check to help us deal with the issue of the 2012 option, then it’s gotta be one of Singleton/Cosart/Colvin…and if I have to pick one of those three, I pick Singleton – simply because we need the other two sooner.
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Stark is reporting Happ + 2 prospects to Astros for Oswalt and $12M — the names of the prospects are on his Insider blog. Suffice it to say, I’m not a subscriber.
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ill go check hold on.
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I’m so tired of trades. Seems like we go from quick fix to quick fix and all the while the future becomes filled with more roadblocks and salary restrictions. I don’t know, I just don’t feel good about this one.
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Gotta think that if the check is $12 million, that it’s Singleton.
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I’d have a hard time believing that one of either Singleton, Cosart or Colvin isn’t part of the package if we are getting $12M in return.
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Theres an edit to the thing he posted yesterday it says is theyre pushing hard for Singleton and are willing to pay 12 million.
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Id give up one of the pitchers. Probably Colvin. How many legitimate pitchers are there in the organisations, how many hitters like Singleton? Hes 18 years old and even while hes slumping hes still getting on base, obp for July is .375, while his avg for July is barely above the Mendoza line.
If he stays then hes ready for the majors in 4 years.
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I would rather trade Colvin than Singleton, although it’s a close call.
Sure, it’s a big IF as to how Singleton turns out, but reports are that his upside is sky-high and the numbers tend to bear that out. He can also try to play OF and has a longer time horizon. We’ll see.
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Yes, if Singleton turns out to be an MVP candidate or Hall of Famer, Wade wins.
I’m prepared to be just fine with that risk. In fact, I’d root for him to have success. Oswalt makes THIS Phillies team a much better team for at least the next 1 1/2. His presence on the roster shores up a lot of what’s wrong with the starting pitching.
This isn’t a rental. I’m cool with whatever has to be done, given that one top 5 guy might have to be moved.
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WOW 12 million is quite the salary relief. Isn’t our entire bonus budget for the 2009 draft less than 12 million?
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Getting $5-6 million for an 8th round pick who hasn’t been above low-A ball is pretty damn good…my only fear is – with the payroll they are committing to through 2012 – that $5-6 million isn’t going to go to sign over-slot guys to replenish the farm…
“And, Ed…could you make that check out to Middleton, Buck, Betz and Partners, please?”
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So the question is, is $12 mil worth losing Singleton?
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to Mr. Anonymous near the top: No, YOU are truly a moron. PP runs the best Philly Fan site on the web.
Losing Happ hurts, such a good pitcher… BUT
Halladay
Oswalt
Hamels
Blanton
Kendrick
That is the best rotation I’ve ever seen for the Phils. Can any of the older fans help me out here? What was the last rotation that rivals this one?
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Why is it said that Singleton won’t be ready for four years? If he’s a special as we think he is, it could be two. Jason Heyward is staring in the majors two years after his low-A season. Another post said Singleton would be ready in 5 years. It can’t be both!! He can’t be very special AND not ready for 4-5 years. If he’s not ready for 4-5 years, I have no problem trading him as he really wouldn’t be that special then. I tend to think he’ll be ready in 2-3 years though. I don’t care if he’s blocked, keep him. He either moves to left field or has MUCH more trade value later.
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12 million is ALOT of money. You figure that into what Oswalt is owed. Assuming were not forced to pick up his 2012 option, we will be only having to pay Oswalt 9 million in 2012. Im upset about losing Singleton, but thats an extremely cheap Ace.
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Stark said on twitter that Singleton is not part of the deal
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Stark said on twitter that Singleton is not part of the deal
Thankgodjebus.
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Phillies discussed if J. Singleton isn’t in deal: Double-A 1B Matthew Rizzotti. Leads lg in AVG (.364) by 52 pts #trades
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Tom:
Singleton is a special hitter whose defensive position is blocked until 2017. Until he shows me that he can play the OF at the ML level, the earliest that I could see the guy up here is 2013/14…I would think you would have to tack 1-2 years’ development time to completely learn a position well enough to play it at the ML level…right?
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We get $12 million…and we don’t trade Singleton…the only thing left to make this thing a home-run is for Cosart and Colvin to not be in the deal.
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agree with Tom: Even if Singelton moves 1 level a year then hes in the Majors in 2014. I reckon he sees some time in Clearwater before this year is up, and is at Reading by the middle of next year. That is of course assuming he stays
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So if Singleton is out, does that mean Cosart or Colvin?
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Stark did not say Singleton wasnt part of the deal. He said if hes not its Rizzotti.
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Hold on, Stark isn’t saying Singleton is not in the deal, he’s saying if he’s not, they want Rizotti (plus less $ to the Phils, I assume). Not out of the Singleton woods yet.
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Stark never said Singleton wasn’t part of the deal – here are his last couple tweets:
Updated Oswalt story: #Astros would get Happ & 2 prospects, & would send $12M to #Phillies as part of deal http://es.pn/b8ch1f #trades
19 minutes ago via web
One player #Astros-#Phillies discussed if J. Singleton isn’t in deal: Double-A 1B Matthew Rizzotti. Leads lg in AVG (.364) by 52 pts #trades
22 minutes ago via web
No formal deadline for Oswalt to OK trade to #Phillies. But he & Happ scheduled to start tomorrow. So both teams prefer answer today #trades
about 1 hour ago via web
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Would another pitching prospect (not Cosart or Colvin) + Rizzotti be enough to get the $12 mil? JC Ramirez maybe?
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Ken_Rosenthal
Hearing A) Singleton not in deal and B) #Phillies getting less than 12M, though number is in that range. Educated guess: 10-11M #Astros #MLB
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Per Rosenthal however:
Hearing A) Singleton not in deal and B) #Phillies getting less than 12M, though number is in that range. Educated guess: 10-11M #Astros #MLB
2 minutes ago via Twitter for BlackBerry®
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Zolecki hears Singleton is in the deal.
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Zolecki tweeted “Keep hearing Happ and Class A prospect Jonathan Singleton are in the deal.”
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We’re hearing too much.
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I think we would all be happy if we could trade Happ, Worley, and Rizzotti for Oswalt + Cash ($10-11M).
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Best case, it will take 3 years for Singleton to reach the majors. There is no way he will be up sooner especially if he has to change position.
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I hate Rosenthal, but he is usually spot on with trade rumors. I remember he called the Lee and Halladay deals like 3 days prior. I really hope it’s Rizz and not Singleton.
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Zolecki just said that Singleton IS in the deal…FWIW.
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There’s seems to be an awful lot of conflicting information, considering this is a done deal pending Oswalt’s approval!
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Well then the good news is Rosenthal just tweeted that Singleton is NOT part of the deal and less money.
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todd zolecki tweets that he keeps hearing Happ and Singleton are in the deal as of 11 mins ago. then ken rosenthal tweets that Singleton is not in the deal as of 9 mins ago. that should clear things up haha. but honestly im hoping it’s not singleton.
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Has anything been hear about his option for 12? This is what im thinking, if Roy pushes for his 12 option and Houston adds even more $ it might be Singleton….
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Chris Sprow:
On Oswalt-Philly situation: Remember that while you keep hearing conflicting reports on whether Jonathan Singleton is in or out of the deal — I’ve gotten three on both sides of that particular aisle — the current reports are that this is still Oswalt’s deal to accept or refuse. Debates on which prospects are involved take away from the core of this, which is, Roy must choose.
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Everything I hear is 8 million the dollar figure, happ is definite, but after that no one really knows.
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everyone talking about Singleton not being ready for at least 3 years is probably right, but that’s kind of the point. i have a REALLY hard time believing that with everyone saying how athletic this kid is for his size, and the fact that he played OF in high school, he would would have any trouble at all playing LF in the majors. i mean really, we had pat burrell playing LF. and the fact that he’s 3 years away is a good thing to me. i would like to see a team that is a true contender for the next 10 years, not just the next 5 years and then they fall off a cliff because they are really old with little help coming from the minors. they need to consistently bring young, cheap players into the mix to control costs, and keep the average age of this team from skyrocketing in the very near future.
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I think Singleton could be ready in about 2 years if he was in a situation where he was pushed. Remember he is a very polished hitter. Some teams would have promoted him to High A this year. But one could easily see him doing Clearwater/Reading next year and AAA in 2012. At that point he would be a call-up away.
The Phillies would take a slower approach and have him potentially play some LF. The slow approach does save the team some money as it would delay his arbitration years and make him more productive in years 1-3 playing for near the minimum.
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Regarding Singleton, I think it’s a little absurd to talk about him being “blocked.” He’s 19, in low A ball, and a lot can happen in a couple of years. But for those who are gnashing their teeth, I’ve been coming to this site long enough to remember the great trade deadline tragedy of 2008, when we gave up Adrian Cardenas to get Joe Blanton (a far inferior pitcher to Oswalt, obviously, though a valuable piece at the time). Last I checked, Cardenas was struggling in Triple A, and though he may yet turn out to be a major leaguer, or even a star, I don’t think anyone is itching to take that trade back. Even PhuturePhillies reevaluated his criticism of the trade after the season. And Josh Outman, the other piece in the deal, has since had Tommy John surgery. So anyway, the point is, let’s maintain some perspective. Keeping Singleton would be really nice. But we can’t have everything, and all things considered, I’d MUCH rather keep our high upside pitchers–they’re the future.
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If Adam Dunn could play in LF for the first ten years of his career, Jon Singleton can too…especially in CBP.
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If Singleton does go to Houston. They’ll fast track him. Id expect him to finish the season in double A.
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Is the option year holding up Oswalts decision or does he not want to play here? If we get him, we could always trade him in the offseason… I kid.
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While Adam Dunn is not a good LF today, he was a much better athlete when he was younger. He was a big time Texas quarterback recruit and had good speed. Stole 20+ bases in the minors with a good success percentage at age 19 and 20 and 19 in the majors at age 22. At 275 pounds he lost that speed pretty quickly, though Singleton would probably lose any speed he has as well.
Dunn was a good athlete that was a natural outfielder when he came up (arm too). The jury is still very far out on whether Singleton can handle the OF adequately. It is worth trying for the Phillies if they keep him. But they probably do not know whether or not he can do it.
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Taking a very broad, view, I don’t mind trading guys who will likely be nice major league players, if the prospects make it at all. Happ, Gose, James, Rizzotti, Mathieson fall in that category.
But potential big-time mashers like Singleton I balk at. Wade is not holding the best hand here. We should not fold the hand and give him the pot. Can’t see why they would give up more than they did for Lee and Halladay for a pitcher on the down-curve–still good, but for how long?
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Theres been so much speculation on who’s in the phils’ package, but has anyone heard which way Oswalt’s leaning?
Singelton to me is a dealbreaker, even when this kid slumps his obp is damn near .400. I really hope RAJ has made serious inquiries about Carmona
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cardenas is last I look hitting 389 in double a, still young, struggling triple a but he is young yet, still think he is a major league player, how good no one knows that,blanton helped them win a pennant so it was a good trade, but i dont like blanton, but would still make that trade.
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This talk about getting Singleton to the majors in 2 seasons is off target. There is tons of history showing that 21 year old kids do not do well in the majors with precious few counter examples. More importantly though “why on earth would Houston field him in 2012?” That team has at least 2 more years of being god awful before they can start to turn things around. Rushing prospects and starting their arb clock is the last thing a team like that should do.
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What I think is happening is houston pays us 12 million if singelton in deal, 8 if he isnt. just a guess.
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@Austin – Carmona will not be traded
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bebopdeluxe
No way does it take someone 1-2 years development time to learn to play OF. See Burrell, Pat for reference.
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Ive heard the whole “1 in a million” stance on Carmona from Cleveland’s front office, but they say thats because they dont believe theyll get serious offers. They should at least float comparable packages to what they want to give up for oswalt and see if they can get some leverage
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Gotta like this … Hearing Oswalt not a fan of Citizens Bk Pk, but he’s 4-0, 2.60 ERA in 4 starts
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I’m starting to get tired of hearing all of Oswalts complaints.
Stark:
Hearing Oswalt not a fan of Citizens Bk Pk, but he’s 4-0, 2.60 ERA in 4 starts-tied with Coors for best win pct at any current park.
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MLBTR- Zolecki says he keeps hearing Singleton in the deal. Rosenthal says Singleton not in the deal. It might be who you believe among those 2, or neither.
And where does Zolecki keep hearing Singleton in the deal? Maybe he read this thread.
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So what’s plan B? Lilly?
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11:17am: Oswalt is not a fan of Citizens Bank Park, though he has pitched well there, according to ESPN.com’s Jayson Stark (Twitter link).
If Oswalt vetoes the deal because of ballpark configurations then he’s a whiny baby and I don’t want him anyway.
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Im sure Roy is talking reporters ears off about ballparks. Minute Maid is a hitters park as well.
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They call Oswalt the cry baby for a reason.
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All this kvetching just seems like a negotiating ploy to get his option picked up and more money.
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Skunky — couldn’t agree with you more. If you are truly an elite pitcher, where you pitch is largely irrelevant. Don’t hear Hallyday complaining much about CBP. Don’t hear Jimenez moaning about Coors.
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Well he has a full no trade clause so he can give any reason he wants, it does not have to make sense.
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ToddZolecki: @McNabborKolb Should have said Singleton could be in deal. Astros love him. Phils reluctant to trade him. Could have found another prospect.
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If he doesn’t want to be traded, he needs to just come out and say so. All this stalling and complaining is wasting time.
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This is just a hunch BUT, IMO if Oswalt wants his 2012 option picked up maybe that means Singleton is out but if he accepts to be moved without the option picked up then its for Rizz or something. Thoughts?
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Cardenas went up to Triple A last year, didn’t hit, so the sent him back to Double A to start the season this year. He hit well at that level again, was called back up to Triple A, and is now sitting at .228/.225/.281. Not good. You can see his numbers here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=carden001adr
Anyway, the point is not that Cardenas sucks and will never amount to anything. It’s that there’s a long, slow and unpredictable road between Lakewood and Philadelphia, and we should be wary of becoming so beguiled by potential that we forget the needs of the present. Roy Oswalt is still a real good pitcher, and we could use one.
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ESPN chat thing- One of Kieth Law’s cohorts asked him to weigh in on Singleton as a prospect, and the swing was analyzed and the conclusion he thinks Singleton can hit for average , but not a ton of power. It’s on there,
Also Stark now says , if Singleton not in deal, name mentioned was Matthew Rizzotti.
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Both Minute Maid & CBP play as essentially neutral parks. Neither is a huge offensive or huge pitchers park based on park factors.
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If the Astros take Happ, Rizzotti and Worley as the centerpieces AND give back money, I’ll start forgiving the Lee trade… Or on second thought maybe not
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Oswalt seems like a little bitch anyway. Doesn’t really seem like the type that would fit in on this team. I say pass for that reason.
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I am not sure CBP is a ‘neutral’ park. I laugh at that.
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It’s Oswalt’s choice: Pitch for a perennial contender over the next few seasons, or stay with a team that may not see a winning season for the rest of his career.
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Pure speculation of course but here is my guess of what transpired.
Wade: “will you waive the no-trade clause?”
Oswalt: “Yes, depending on the destination.”
Wade: “For the love of god, keep the list to yourself or we will get fleeced.”
So they tried to work it out but Philly was not on his list. So all this media storm is just to try to get him to reconsider.
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****I am not sure CBP is a ‘neutral’ park. I laugh at that.****
Its dimensions are good for HRs but bad for doubles and triples…thus it evens out and plays a neutral run producing park. The numbers dont lie.
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@PYW – The thing is that he wants out of Houston. He WANTS to play for the cardinals so much that he would restructure his contract for them. We should call up KC and ask them the price on Soria.
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Sam, I have no doubt his first choice was St. Louis, and he was hoping to write his own ticket the way Halladay did. But it’s not quite working out that way, lol.
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Sam — Soria is untouchable for all of the reasons you’d expect. Matt — not that this could ever be a thing that the media would discuss but I get the exact same feeling you do about Oswalt. Somehow you get the sense that if Oswalt isn’t a good fit in this clubhouse, he’s simply not going to be the pitcher they dealt for.
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Well wouldn’t that only make sense that if you hit the ball out of the park, you wouldn’t be getting as many doubles/triples? That’s comment sense.
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The White Sox are exploring hitters other than Dunn, and not all left-handed bats. With an open DH spot, the Sox have flexibility to take almost any bat. Rosenthal says they also seek a mid-rotation starter.
Ibanez anyone? Maybe trade Ibanez + Happ for prospects then flip them to TB for Shields?
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Well I think “comment” sense tells us to actually look at how many runs are scored at CBP. http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor
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Man, if it’s Happ, Worley and Rizzotti I drive them to the airport.
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Sam: you seem to be a week late with that (Ibanez/prospect flipping/TB)
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Stark reporting that oswalt will waive no trade clause and accept trade
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ESPN reporting Oswalt has agreed to trade.
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For Shields? Tampa might be willing to part with Shields for just about anything at this point. 1 year of arb left and k’s consistently down and walks consistently up for 3 years.
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RT @jaysonst: Roy Oswalt plans to OK deal to #Phillies, source says. But deal not official yet. More to come on ESPN.com #trades
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Need to hear the PLAYERS already damnit. I cant work at all today.
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nvm forget about shields lol
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Tom:
There is a lot more examples of 3B (like Burrell) making the transition to LF than 1B…also, you are talking about an older player who was coming out of a major college program and the #1 pick in the draft – not an 18-19 year-old whose success has been in low-A.
Look – I don’t want to trade Singleton, either. However, I find it hard to believe that we will get Oswalt for Happ, Worley and Rizz…AND get major $$$ (which – given the Phillies payroll situation and the inability to move Werth – is as important a factor in getting this deal done as the players) to boot.
I don’t want them to trade either Cosart or Colvin – guys that they may demand if we say no to Singleton. Personally, I would add somebody like Gose (or similar) to the Happ/Worley/Rizz package before I would trade Singleton or the pitchers…although some here might think that is too much.
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So, good news depending on the prospects.
The word is that “Happ is the centerpiece” of the deal…that sounds promising.
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very interesting link Greg!
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Latest rumor still has oswalt plus 11 million for happ and 2 prospects. Since houston is paying that much i see at least one big prospect going. sadly the only name thrown out there is singleton, so take it for what its worth. i am hoping for something like may and rizz? is that just too much wishful thinking? i personally am holding out hope singleton, cosart, colvin are not involved.
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$11 mil in salary relief…Singleton?
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Roy Oswalt will be the Andy Ashby move of the ’10’s. You heard it here first.
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I don’t disagree with you. If we get a lot of money, a stud prospect goes, no doubt about it. My opinion is that Singleton APPEARS to be very special. We have no others like him in our system. I think we have a great deal of potential starters, so I’d prefer to lose one of them and not someone like Singleton. My point about Burrell still stands in my mind. Moving from IF to OF, at age 19-20 or 21-22 makes no difference. College or minor leagues, makes no difference. Burrell was very limited athletically and was a decent fielder in his early years.
Regardless, I think Singleton will even more trade value in a year or two if it’s decided he can’t play OF.
Unfortunately, it’s the economics. Phillies don’t want to spend dollars, they have to give up value. I also would rather it be Gose or something similar, but until we hear the dollars involved, it’s all conjecture. If I had to guess, the Phils will get major salary relief and give up Singleton, Cosart or Colvin along with Happ and Worley.
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This would be good … Anthony Gose’s name floating around as candidate to go to Houston in Oswalt deal. M. Bourn making $2.4M and getting more pricey
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Would be fine with Happ/Worley/Gose for Oswalt … and if Riz is included, I’d live with that as well.
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cool story bro
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Per Ken R – option year not picked up, Oswalt will be compensated some other way for waiving no trade clause.
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12:12pm: Oswalt plans to OK the deal, but it’s not official yet, reports Stark. He adds that the Astros will be sending $11MM. Rosenthal tweets that Oswalt’s 2012 option will not be exercised; he’ll be compensated some other way. ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick tweets of a rumor that speedy outfield prospect Anthony Gose may be in the deal.
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Do we have to spend all $11 mil on Oswalts contract or can we spread some of it around?
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Filed to ESPN.com: Source says Phils will add $1m to buyout of 2012 option, to compensate for waiving of no-trade & added income tax
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All the Philly fans I know are salivating at the thought of another trade with Ed Wade
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The Hog Blog is reporting Paul Hoover had replaced Vance Worley coaching first base in the fourth inning in this morings game.
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Source for the Gose MAY be in the deal thing: tweet by Jerry Crasnick.
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Happ + Gose + Worley = Oswalt + 11mil ?
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“Happ + Gose + Worley = Oswalt + 11mil”
No. You have to give up something to get something. You guys are being too optimistic.
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““And, Ed…could you make that check out to Middleton, Buck, Betz and Partners, please””
Not to sound jerky, but if you took the combined income of every person who hit this site this year, John Middleton would still have more money than all of us put together. He is worth Billions with a “B”.
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They probably increased the buyout from $2 M to something like $5 M.
The option will still be available if he stays healthy so that’ll be nice.
From all the reports, this deal sounds like a WIN for the Phillies.
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Great point by Andrew. This board went nuts when Cardenas was included in the Blanton deal two years ago. Now he’s seemingly no closer to fullfilling his ML potential, which seems to be a fluctuate between Ronnie Belliard as the floor and Jose Vidro as the ceiling.
Meanwhile, Blanton — despite his poor first half — has been part of a starting staff that has played in two World Series.
Win for the Phillies. Let’s not forget the bottom line, the reason why we have high hopes for the Singletons and the Colvins — to win and play in World Series.
Oswalt gives us a great chance to do that. If it requires Singleton, I’d send him in a heartbeat. Of course, I hope Ruben is wearing his best poker face bluff first.
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Per Phillies’ beat writer Randy Miller (on Twitter):
Long-time baseball scribe Ed Price is hearing 3 players going to Astros for Oswalt are LHP J.A. Happ, RHP Vance Worley and OF Anthony Gose.
3 minutes ago via web
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Cromp, you said “a guy i work with, his wife works for the phillies and just called him and stated that Oswalt is a phillie, 2 of the guys going are Happ and Worley”
Can you co-worker call his wife and ask for the names of the players involved in the trade?
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Very confused? if houston is giving us 11 million, Oswalt is owed 5 million this year and 16 next year, no option year, can we pick up the option or not if we want? if we dont we get oswalt for one and half years for 1o million is that right??
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I find the Gose rumor credible, given my (above-mentioned) theory about Ed Wade’s predilection for speedy, slap-hitting center fielders. (Seriously–how many of those did we draft during the time he was GM?) If the deal really is Happ, Worley, Gose, suffice it to say, I am very, very happy. And perhaps it’s a small vindication of the Lee trade? After all, Gose becomes expendable because of the addition of Gillies, a comparable but much better player, IMHO.
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“Long-time baseball scribe Ed Price is hearing 3 players going to Astros for Oswalt are LHP J.A. Happ, RHP Vance Worley and OF Anthony Gose.”
That trade is so full of WIN
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If this deal is Happ, Worley, and Gose for Oswalt and $11M, that is a big win for the Phillies. I am not happy about losing Gose, but there are a number of other OF’s in the system right now that makes him expendable (Gillies, J. James, Hudson, Altherr, L. Castro, etc)
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“Long-time baseball scribe Ed Price is hearing 3 players going to Astros for Oswalt are LHP J.A. Happ, RHP Vance Worley and OF Anthony Gose.
3 minutes ago via web”
If that is really the trade there must be some sort of stipulation that we have to hire Ed Wade as a consultant or something… because after this he’s going to be looking for a job.
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If the deal is indeed Happ + Gose + Worley = Oswalt + 11mil, can we perhaps agree to suspend the “Amaro stinks” comments for at least a couple of weeks?
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mikemike says:
July 29, 2010 at 12:15 PM
cardenas is last I look hitting 389 in double a, still young, struggling triple a but he is young yet, still think he is a major league player, how good no one knows that,blanton helped them win a pennant so it was a good trade, but i dont like blanton, but would still make that trade.
In the meantime we have won one World Championship and missed another by 2 games.
Win, Phillies. I don’t care of Cardenas becomes Rod Carew Jr, we won a World Championship with Blanton as an important cog.
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Also, if it’s really Happ/Worley/Gose I restate my theory that Ed Wade is a secret Phillies sleeper agent programmed to destroy the Astros from within. Revenge, Craig Biggio, is a dish best served cold. And repeatedly.
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Cant see the Astros trading Oswalt + 11 Million for Happ, Worley, Gose…Got to be another player/s
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Happ, worley and gose for oswalt plus 11million, if it wasnt ed wade id be more skeptical…
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Skunky – I’m thinking the same thing. RAJ will even pay for Wade’s parachute lessons.
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“Also, if it’s really Happ/Worley/Gose I restate my theory that Ed Wade is a secret Phillies sleeper agent programmed to destroy the Astros from within. Revenge, Craig Biggio, is a dish best served cold. And repeatedly.”
LOL.
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I don’t think Gose was high enough on the depth chart to ever start for this team. An extremely good move if it’s him Worley and Happ. My friend is crushed over losing Happ, but if we are going to be a playoff team every year, Happ would never be more than a 5th starter.
If THAT’S the deal, then colour me impressed.
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I’ll wait till I seet the final deal before I can let out a sign of relief
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I think that if it is Happ, Worley and Gose than Amaro did a great job. We have to realize that alot of the Major Phillie stars are not getting much younger. We need to start holding onto alot of these younger players and develop them for when Utley, Howard and Rollins are too old. Happ is a 4th starter, maybe a 3. He did a nice job last year but the league is now adjusting to him. Our championship window is slowly closing and having someone like Oswalt helps this team now. We didnt sell the future for him. This also doesnt get Amaro off for the Lee trade.
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If it is in fact Happ, Worley and Gose for Oswalt plus a ton of cash, its a massive win for the Phillies. Absolutely massive.
More to come later.
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To Mike Mike
I came down harder on your comment than I should have. My apologies.
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Just wondering why Astros would want Gose. They have Bourn, who is already Gose with some walks thrown in.
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I will happily (very happily) eat my words if I am wrong but I do not see how it could possibly be Happ, Gose and Worley. That is the type of transaction that occurs in the cell block.
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If the deal is Happ, Worley, and Gose I agree to stop name calling Ruben for 16.4 days or until Cliff Lee throws a no hitter. which ever comes first.
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Also being reported the Phillies will add $1M to the 2012 buyout to compensate Oswalt for waiving his no trade and additional taxes. Oswalt will reported maintain his no trade clause.
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Gargano saying Singleton IS in, FWIW.
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The Cuz is too busy sloppy cheese wiz on his face to know anything about baseball. I wouldn’t trust what he says at all.
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wow that would be an amazing trade
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Please, not Singleton …
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Gargano is too busy thinking of clever ways to sell sausages on the radio
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Even if its Singleton, its still a really big win for the Phillies.
I won’t have time for an indepth write-up till later, but its a big win.
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this tweet made me chuckle “Jason A. Churchill: Phillies plan to move Roy Halladay to AL West club for three middling prospects to clear payroll space for Oswalt. #fakenews, ftw. “
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Maybe the trade deadline drama is not over. Crasnick and Miller are reporting, respectively, that Phillies are after Bloomquist and Tejada.
Apparently the cupboard is not bare after Oswalt trade.
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To the person who predicted Oswalt will be the next Andy Ashby… Ashby was a pu$$y. Oswald is a very tough guy, very Cliff Lee like.
Still wished we had Lee though. Oh well, that ship has sailed.
I would think this would make it almost impossible to retain Werth next year, hope we at least offer arbitration.
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WIP corrected Gargano’s report a couple minutes later. Still Gose, no Singleton.
Ed Wade, you are my favorite GM.
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BTW, I have trouble including Happ in the deal, much as I like him.
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Happ has served us well. Had a very nice year last year (luck or no luck) and is getting us a TOR pitcher for the next year and half. I’ll be rooting for him to have success in Houston.
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If the phillies make this trade for oswalt, win or lose I will be happy that they went after a weakness, overcame a mistake lee and are trying hard to win. that all we ask try to win, dont do what the eagles do, lets get to the playoff and hope we get lucky, no get to the playoff and be strong as possible,
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Ed Wade is the greatest Phillies GM in history to pull off such a deal…what do you mean he’s not our GM anymore?
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My guess is Amaro hyped up Happ and proved Worley is ready by the promotion so we are including 1 Proven (middle of rotation) and 1 MLB ready (with upside) SP along with 1 of the top CF prospects. How on earth do we get almost half the salary relief and the only significant person we give up is Happ.
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So Oswalt starts tomorrow right?
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Sorry one more thing didnt know until this morning, Houston owner was talked out of hiring Amaro and instead was talked into hiring Wade, per Bill Conlin
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Wow. I’m still in shock. Now addressing the closer issue…
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The last time we made a deal with Wade he gave us a key piece to a championship. Lets hope history repeats.
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Ooops, I meant to say I have NO trouble including Happ in the trade. Duh …
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Happ+Worley+Gose just looks like too much of a steal. Could there be another player in there? Or is it definitely just Happ+ 2 prospects?
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Did RAJ bring up Worley for that one game to show him off to Wade?
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Now do we shop Rizzotti for a BP arm?
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I don’t get it. Why do they need a guy like Gose, when they already have Bourn?
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Salisbury says Happ & Gose are definites.
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per Jim Salisbury… Gose and Happ are definite, sources say.
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I’ll settle for a seventh-inning guy to bolster the bullpen at this point.
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@2nd John – Bourn is starting to get expensive
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Gose and Happ definite according to Jim Salisbury. So, what’s behind door #3? I worry a bit that this is too good to be true.
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I thought we’d definitely at least lose a Harold Garcia type (who I would say is close to MLB ready)…
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Hearing Matheison is the 3rd
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Good – if Gose is in the trade, it (to my mind) decreases the likelihood Singleton is as well.
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I’ll miss Happ, he was class and pitched well for us. Still, the deal sounds better with every passing Minute. Now if only they can bolster the bullpen!
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Keeping throwing Ed more middling prospects – he believes in volume (see Curt Schilling trade; Brad Lidge trade).
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This has got to be a record for posts, right?
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To be fair, Ed got an allstar OF for Lidge. Not too shabby.
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nvm its Worley
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Sam:
Where are you hearing that Matheison is going in addition to Happ/Worley/Gose?
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@Dan – Draft night was pretty crazy too
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Phillies were in a tough bind next year with having 3 of the same guys at 2 levels. Now Gillies can repeat AA and James can play in clearwater.
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questionable all star, his defensive value is amazing but he has no bat
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So tell me about this Mathieson kid
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Lost in this discussion – another fine outing by Jesse Biddle. In a shortened GCL game, Biddle pitched 5 innings, surrendering 4 hits and 0 runs, 0 walks and 5 Ks. Two strong outings in a row now and striking out more than a batter an inning his 6 appearances.
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another reason its a good trade is because i believe gillies is the superior centerfield prospect to gose when healthy
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So the rotation would be Halladay, Hamels, Oswalt, Blanton, ??????
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good now lets use some of that extra coin to sign Fraser.
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Halladay, Hamels, Oswalt, Blanton, KK
That, or Jamie Moyer learns to pitch righty.
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Latest from Ed Price, one minute ago: Now have 2 people, not involved in trade, saying Phillies trading Jonathan Singleton in Oswalt deal. If so, that’s a good get for Astros.
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Ouch.
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Singleton is in lakewood’s starting lineup for today so I doubt he’s in the trade
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Gose is a better defensive OF than Gillies by most reports. Dealing Gose is probably a good decision if he can be the low level high end prospect in the deal, but let’s not discount his value that much. He has gold glove defensive tools. Top end speed with an arm that threw mid-90s fastballs in college. He is a year younger relative to level than Gillies and has been improving in most aspects of the game (except for stealing bases).
Trading Gose is a good move because of the redundancy of guys like Gillies and James. But Gose is also a better prospect than either one of those guys and is probably a top 150 guy in baseball (not quite a top 100 guy).
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Oswalt doesn’t bring you to the promised land on his own. You still have a #5 starter who can lose all the time and a bullpen that could throw another 2-3 losses a pitching cycle at you. Oswalt has 1 CG this year. You still need to get an inning or 2 from the bullpen. If the Phils make the playoffs then they’re golden. I like the trade for another ace but don’t print the playoff tickets quite yet.
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Its still a win with Singleton involved…its just not a smashing victory.
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Most of the sources still say Singleton isn’t included. We’ll see …
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With Oswalt could the phillies go to a 3 man rotation if they make the playoffs? Halladay could definitely do it, but what about Oswalt and Hamels?
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supposedly reported on espn that we got kearns/carmona for kk/2 prospects
who knows??
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7 game series
Halladay
Hamels
Oswalt
Haladay
Hamels
Oswalt
Halladay?
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All I can say is I’m really glad this site exists for days like these
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Sources are saying Happ, Gose and Worley. That is a home run. A grand slam home run. The type of trade where, frankly, we don’t even begin to miss what we gave up. If you add Houston paying for salary, it’s ridiculous. Ed Wade should have slid a paper across the table that said “May, Cosart, Colvin . . . . pick one” He really is stupid for not getting one of those players. But we’ve known this all along. Stupid is as stupid does.
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That “Sources” has a big mouth. Someone needs to shut that guy up.
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Latest report is that Singleton is in the lineup at Lakewood, and the deal is Happ, Mathieson and Gose.
Amazing
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I have a hard time believing there won’t be at least one prospect in the deal that we’ll miss. I just want the real details to come out already.
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wow, so the first report wasn’t that far off, it just included Singleton.
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Phuturephilles, can you give us the link to where it says Mathieson is involved?
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In fairness to Wade, he wasn’t exactly negotiating on a position of stregnth when you there was only one team available to negotiate with. The Astros had to move him, it was just a matter of how much they would get in return. Seattle did the smart thing in getting the best offer from the Yankees than playing off that to get a better package from Texas.
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Lakewood game is at 7 so that may not mean much.
As much as I love Mathieson I would prefer to keep Worley over him. Worley looks like a useful arm for the next few years without any durability questions.
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can the phils still squeeze out keppinger in the deal, that would be great
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Worley > Mathieson … by a LONG shot
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Easy on Ed. His hands were totally tied. When the Yankees and Red Sox aren’t involved, you start off with your options limited. The Angels and White Sox (and Phillies) are on the next tier of spenders. Only the Phillies were interested. The Cubs and Mets have high payrolls. Neither of them were interested. The Cards were not giving up Garcia, so his choices were a trade to the Phils or keep Oswalt.
In that scenario, it would have been best to keep him and deal in the offseason. Then you have those reports that Oswalt wanted out NOW. That left Ruben with all the leverage. Ed gets Happ, a quality probably No. 3 starter until cheap control for a few years. And he gets two OK prospects. He didn’t have many other options.
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Wow this keeps getting better, Happ, Mathieson and Gose for Oswalt AND 11 mill. WOW, Please erect the statue of Ruben now.
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Yes, Worley can compete for the fifth starter spot with KK.
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Rube to Ed Wade: “I am altering the deal, pray I don’t alter it further”
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Agree on the Ed bashing as I said earlier. He doesn’t have the cards … he HAS to move him and Phils appear to be only players … I honestly don’t think it’s a horrible deal in that light. I’m excited as a Phillies fan, he wasn’t in an easy situation.
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If it really is Happ, Mathieson and Gose it is every bit as good as the Cliff Lee deal last year. While I would have traded Worley over Singleton, my feeling is that Worley is getting good so quickly that he may end up being a viable 5th starter option this year.
I am floored if that is the compensation, particularly since the Astros are paying lots of $ and Phils didn’t have to excercise buy-out.
You had to know that this would end up in some type of Ed Wade fleecing.
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I meant Phils did not have to exercise option.
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Mathieson? Really? Cause I am more hyped on Worley becoming a middle reliever than Mathieson staying in the majors. If it’s really Happ/Mathieson/Gose that’s awesome. Happ might, though I doubt it, be a solid #3-4 over the next 2 yrs, but Oswalt will be better than that over the next 2 yrs. Mathieson having trade value after all his injures is amazing. Hope he makes it in Houston, just didn’t seem in the cards here in Philly. Gose might be the only real loss there and one anyone could easily live with.
Still, nothing concrete announced but this is awesome.
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“Yes, Worley can compete for the fifth starter spot with KK.” Yep. Sounds better by the minute – not a big fan of Mathieson.
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I actually like the option being in his contract. Not meaning we have to pick it up though. It is very possible that in 2012, 16 million for Oswalt could be a bargain.
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It can be both Worley and Mathieson as long as Singleton isn’t included.
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Where does it say that Scott Mathieson is involved?
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James,
This isn’t the time/place with all the trade stuff being so hot but, if Mathieson is involved, I’d be very interested in your take as to why he fell out of favor with the Phillies now. They made a huge investment in him by nursing him through two Tommy John surgeries and he has come across in interviews as an earnest, harworking, and good guy. He has had a strong year and was jettisoned back to AAA after just one bad outing. Is it just the concern over no secondary pitches or is there something else going on? Considering how much bullpen help the Phillies need, and the investment made in Scott, not really giving him a shot this year seems odd to me.
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happ getting hurt may have been a blessing in disguise.. if he had struggled or regressed as some thought, his value may have dropped.. but now he is traded off his 2009 reputation which is a good thing
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good point dave, i think most of us can agree he probably would have regressed this year quite a bit
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More confirmatin on Happ and Gose. http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies_zone/
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If it is Happ, Worley and Gose then this is the BEST deal Ed Wade has ever made FOR the Phils.
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Looks like a big win, but getting him for Aumont, Gilles and JC Ramirez would be a much bigger win.
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Baxter I think Oswalt, Aumont, Gillies, Ramierez and 11 million dollars is on par with 1 year of Lee, Happ, Gose and whatever 2nd tier prospect.
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Sources say that Ed Wade accepted a package that included philly cheese steaks for all Astros players when they are in Philly, pitcher Joe Cowley, and free wifi when Ed visits citizen’s bank park.
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Getting closer to completion.
Once names are confirmed, I’m opening up a new post to discuss, this one is going to bog the board down after another 100 replies.
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Why Baxter? That would be selling ridiculously low on Aumont, Gilles and Ramirez, three high-ceiling guys. Any why so down on Ramirez?
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And, baxter, we have Oswalt under control for an additional year as well.
This deal looks too good to be true.
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Ack, now I’m reading Villar is the third piece along with Gose and Happ.
Still a huge win, even though I love Villar more than the next guy.
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I will do cartwheels if the deal is Happ, Gose & Worley. I didn’t even think it was a bad deal if they included Singleton.
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I’d rather have Villar than Worley or Mathieson, but still a big win.
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“Rube to Ed Wade: “I am altering the deal, pray I don’t alter it further””
LOL NEPP!
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Gose, Happ and Villar according to Rosenthal. Would love to keep Villar but still a great deal.
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“This isn’t the time/place with all the trade stuff being so hot but, if Mathieson is involved, I’d be very interested in your take as to why he fell out of favor with the Phillies now. They made a huge investment in him by nursing him through two Tommy John surgeries and he has come across in interviews as an earnest, harworking, and good guy. He has had a strong year and was jettisoned back to AAA after just one bad outing. Is it just the concern over no secondary pitches or is there something else going on? Considering how much bullpen help the Phillies need, and the investment made in Scott, not really giving him a shot this year seems odd to me.”
You are making this too personal. Here are the facts. Mathieson has had two surgeries – he’s always a risk for another injury. He is 26 and he doesn’t have a lot of big league experience. He throws very hard, but he has trouble apparently with his FB being straight and having good command of breaking ball pitches. He is not our best relief prospect – that distinction belongs to Justin DeFratus and maybe even Bastardo is ahead of him. He is a perfect compliment to get this trade done and it’s unlikely we’ll miss him.
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Wait, MLBTR says Jonathan Vilar, though the name is misspelled? That would hurt.
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Is Villar in the deal now? Rosenthal is saying it’s someone named Villan.
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Rosenthal tweets that Oswalt’s option is actually a mutual one. With the trade, his buyout will increase from $1MM to $2MM if the Phillies pick up the option and he declines, and remain at $2MM “if he simply opts out on his own.” Rosenthal adds that the third player in the deal will be shortstop prospect Jonathan Villan.
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Should get confirmation in the next few minutes.
Happ, Gose and Villar looks like the newest edition of the deal.
I love Villar, but the deal makes a ton of sense for the Phillies, and with the cash, is a massive win.
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“The players in the Oswalt deal, which is still not official: J.A. Happ, OF Anthony Gose, SS Jonathan Villan. #Phillies #Astros #MLB”
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happ, gose, villan! not a bad deal!
i just want to say that it was a great way to pass time at work today reading all of your posts…thanks everyone! Go PHILS!!!
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I like Villar a lot too, but we’ll live. He’s not even close to being in Singleton’s neighborhood as a prospect. And if we keep Scotty Mathieson, I’m good with that too. I’d like to see him here, although I wouldn’t lose sleep if he was traded.
I cannot believe that dumb old Ed Wade couldn’t even convince the Phils to throw Worley or Rizzotti into that deal. Unbelievable.
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It hurts to lose our only legit SS prospect again. What do we do when Rollins gets old? (as he seems to be doing quickly).
Still a great deal.
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Oh no, we’re giving up Villan?? Oh well, at least we get to keep Villar!
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SS may be something we have to address in the draft with a college kid.
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Great Kevin Goldstein tweet: “No announcement yet? I wonder if the Phillies have caught their breath long enough from rolling around and laughing to sign the paperwork.” (That was before news broke that Villar was involved, but still … )
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Losing Villar would hurt a little. But I think the phillies are looking at Rollins and Utley — any maybe even Howard — as Derek Jeter types, who will be around and effective well into their 30’s. Maybe it allows them flexibility to make deals like this.
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Apparently Wade wasn’t involved in the deal, according to Keith Law…
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OUCH i love Villar. To me, he’s 4th most untouchable after Singleton, Colvin and Cosart…
Can’t we just give them another outfielder and/or pitcher? Wouldn’t they rather get 4 or 5 players?
If this is true, two of that 11 million needs to go torwards signing an intl amateur SS.
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Losing Villar would hurt but as long as we have the boppers at 1B, Rf, lf, the phillies will live on
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I’m not saying including Vilar makes the trade a bad one, but you really hate to see the team trading its best middle infield prospect, an area where the cupboard is beyond bare, at a time when the incumbents at those positions are starting to show the effects of wear and tear. I’m not complaining about the trade, not by a long shot, but if this year has demonstrated anything, it’s that having a long-term plan to replace Rollins is probably something to think about.
On the other hand, 41 errors definitely suggests he needs a wee bit of work.
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Its done. Its Happ , Gose, and young SS Jonathan Villar
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Before I start drinking my wine and rejoicing in the streets, James, where did you get those rumors? The most recent posts I’ve been reading have said that Singleton IS one of the players in the trade.
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What are you guys nuts? I love Villar, dont get me wrong, but I’d trade him before I would Cosart, Singleton, Colvin or May….And I was never a huge Gose fan either.
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Like everyone else it seems, I’ll be pretty pleased if it turns out that Singleton is not included in the package. However, I’d like to second andyb’s comments on Gose, as I honestly feel like he has more upside than just about anyone else in our system. A lot of people seem to discount him as a player because his numbers don’t jump out at you, but looking at the progress he’s made each year, as someone who’s always been very young for his league, he’s legitimately one of the top CF prospects in all of the minors. That being said, the presence of Gillies, James, etc. does make him comparatively expendable.
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Catch 22, go to mlbtraderumors.com, or search a good insiders twitter page such as Ken Rosenthal or Jayson Stark.
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Personally I think Gillies is a better prospect than Gose. Lets not forget about Arther either.
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I agree about Gose being underrated somewhat. He’s made consistent improvement since he’s been in the system. Someone remarked earlier that he improved everywhere but stolen bases, well don’t look now but he’s stolen 8 bases his last 11 or 12 games and only been thrown out once.
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Break the seal on that wine bottle, Catch … Ken Rosenthal reported that (a) that the deal is done and (b) that Villar was the second prospect involved
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Just on ESPN – Happ and Gose. Third player not yet named.
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It’s Happ, Gose and Villar
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