72 thoughts on “June 30 Discussion

  1. Clearwater lost 2 -1 in a shortened game. LHV split a double-header. They lost 3-2 in the late game. Brown went 3 – 6 in the double-header including his 1st HR in AAA. He had a SB and an assist.

    Interesting tidbits:
    – Andy Tracy played 3rd for a couple of innings
    – Boxscore says JC Romero started the game in LHV and he
    had a save in Philly last night;
    – H. Garcia extends hitting streak to 32 games
    – Rizzotti hit a 3R HR last night off Drabek. Oh yeah, he
    had 2 hits in all.
    – Angelle is unhittable, 5 1/3, 2 H, 8 Ks but 4 BBs. He’s the
    next guy up to Lakewood and he’s a southpaw.
    – Colvin wasn’t too shabby either. 6 2/3, 4 H, R, 5 Ks & BB.
    He’s given up 4 ERs in his last 4 outings (26 2/3 innings).

    In the DSL, Valenzuela now has 12 Es in 22 games.

  2. Anonymous, you could’ve also picked Happ, JC Romero, Bocock, Dwayne Wise, etc. It was a resumption of a suspended game, meaning part of the game actually occurred in April.

  3. The Lehigh Valley game #1 was a suspended game. That is why you see Romero and Sardinha in the line-up

  4. Clearwater- I see Fidel Hernandez has finally been reinstated from suspension, giving them 5 Middle Infielders, given that and the problems up above, if they ever were going to promote Harold Garcia now might be the time.

    Williamsport – The Williamsport write-up has Siulman Lebron as pitching the 9th inning after new signee Jacob Borup pitched the eighth while the boxscore has Borup pitching the 8th and 9th. Somebody should look into that and get it together.

    Cutters website says Kelly Dugan will be out for an indefinite period of time after having an infection removed. The meaning of that is what.

  5. PP, love the site.

    Had the opp to take in the LV AAA game last night. D Brown really showed off his potential. Stolen base w/ a heads up advance to 3rd on a throwing error. 2/3 in game 1, HR in game 2. Nice patience at the plate, and got a two out single that set up his winning run (scored from 1st) in the bottom of the ninth. Some nice catches in RF, a nice throw from RF to 3rd for an out. The gem was a perfect laser to home after catching a pop up in RF. The runner was safe by just a hair, but the perfect throw still drew a loud ovation from the crowd.
    This kid was really fun to watch, and displayed all his tools. He is going to be good for a long time in the majors.

  6. Couple of things from last night. After two more hits last night Matt Rizzotti is just three hits away from becoming the first Phillies organizational player at any level to get to 100 hits this season.

    Harold Garcia extended his consecutive game hitting steak to 32, just four shy of the 36 game Florida State League record. The record is held by Joe Altobelli in 1951. The last time I remember Altobelli was watching him at two of the five 1983 World Series games managing the Orioles over the Phils. Also Garcia kept his 32 game hitting steak alive on a bunt single last night. Pete Rose kept his 44 game National League record equalling hitting streak alive in 1978 on a bunt base hit in game 32 against none other than the Phillies.

  7. CSN Philly (Kevin Czerwinski) is reporting that Cosart is experiencing “very light elbow pain” and will likely miss his next start on Friday. Of course lots of pitchers get elbow problems for all kinds of reasons, but as I wrote here once before: I don”t like Cosarts new delivery as it has too much arm and not enough leg.

  8. SIFPA,
    It was also reported on the lakewood blog. They are checking it out today and so we should know more details soon.

  9. Trying to find scouting report on angelle.What kind of velocity does he have? what are his secondary pitches? Interested to find out more about him. If anyone can help thanks

  10. Interesting tidbit from a conversation with Chuck LaMar at Blue-Claws blog:

    http://blog.blueclaws.com/2010/talk-to-chuck/

    On Harold Garcia and his 31 game hitting streak with Clearwater: Anytime you hit in 31 straight, that’s pretty good in slow-pitch softball. Hopefully we’ll get him up to Double-A in a few weeks and he’s got a chance to play in the Major Leagues because he wants to.

  11. mikemike, here’s some background on Angelle from last year, posted by bc in the day 3 recap last year:

    Angelle righted a somewhat erratic season when he had his best outing in a Southland Conference Tournament elimination game May 22 against UT-Arlington in Corpus Christi.Angelle gave up five hits and one run in 6 2/3 innings of a 4-3 victory. He also struck out five and walked one.

    “That’s when he became the Kevin Angelle we always thought he could be,” said baseball scout Steve Cohen, who followed Angelle since before his senior season of high school at Bridge City.

    With a fastball in the 90-92 miles per hour range, a changeup, curve and a slider developed this season, the 6-foot-3, 195-poundAngelle said he feels confident to join the professional ranks.

    That confidence showed against UTA.

    “He took ownership of the game and really competed,” said Cohen, in his sixth year as the Phillies regional scout. “He wasn’t going to give in. It was must-win for the team to go on. A great effort when they needed him.”

    http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/sports/local/lu_pitcher_angelle_to_take_second_chance__will_sign_with_phillies_06-11-2009.html

  12. I WISH MORE AFFILIATES USED PHILLIES AS NICKNAME. NOW IT’S JUST READING AND GULF COAST. I REMEMBER THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF THE SPARTANBURG PHILLIES. BUT IRONPIGS? PLEASE!

  13. @philly jamaal — do you have a link to that announcement? I don’t have the teim to search for it but would liek to read the news…thnks in advance

  14. See Harold just hit in his 33rd straight game today. The minor league department was right to have worried about losing him in last year’s Rule 5 draft and lucky no one took a chance on him. They will have to do something with him before the next Rule 5.

  15. I’m smelling a trade coming. Even though this won’t happen, would you think Rizzoti plus another mid-level prospect like Castro or Berry could land us Donald back. Rizzoti would fit in nicely as a DH/1b. The Indians already have Laporta and Hafner, but Hafner will be gone soon and Rizzoti could be a future DH.

  16. Guess we’ll see that high ranking of Cosart from certain folks come a bit back to reality now. Not saying he is damaged goods yet, but certainly doesn’t bode well for his future.

  17. Cosart to the DL…super.

    This is why we have the saying “There is no such thing as a pitching prospect”

  18. Donald back? You’re kidding right? I would see us targeting guys like Keppinger, Peralta, or Fontenot over Jason.

    Nothing against Jason but I doubt the Indians would trade their cheap utility guy nor would we target him.

  19. Donald is basically the same type of player as Fontenot and Keppinger. Peralta is more expensive and is limited to one position and Donald was a home grown talent. Donald would be a major upgrade to Valdez and Castro. I wrote that I knew it wasn’t going to happen because it is somewhat unrealistic. I was just throwing it out there.

  20. Other Max & NEPP

    Just what does Rizzotti have to do before you guys begin to think that he may have significant value and maybe we should keep him.

  21. Lenny – All he needs to do is rent the Delorian, and play better for the past 3 years. That’s all he really needs to do.

  22. ****Just what does Rizzotti have to do before you guys begin to think that he may have significant value and maybe we should keep him.****

    Learn another position and lose a year or two in age.

    I like Donald…its ashame we had to give him up…he’s just not a real option at this point.

  23. Rizzotti has value but only as a trading piece. He’ll never play in Philly, they have someone at 1B already who isn’t going anywhere plus the fact that Riz isn’t very good at 1B. He can hit though and that makes him valuable to an AL team to DH.
    Cosart felt a “twinge” in his elbow and the team is being very careful with their prized arm. I suspect he’ll be fine in a week or two and there’s no reason to rush him since he would have had to be shut down in August anyway. Now, he’ll be able to pitch later on in the season possibly. Still no word on Nick Hernandez….. How about that Julian Sampson finally throwing 1+ shutout innings last night…

  24. Matt: First of all he hasn’t played that badly the past 3 years and even if he had, why does that cancel out what he is doing now and may continue to do in the future. Isn’t the whole concept of projection based on the concept that a player may do better in the future than he is currently doing. In this case it really isn’t even projection its just believing that what you see now is a better representation of the player’s talent than what has happened in the past.

    Could it all end as suddenly as it began – sure. But sometimes it doesn’t. Why not wait and find out. Do we really have to get rid of every player who suddenly exceeds our expectations?

  25. Developing guys is a process that includes getting innings under the belt. Cosart is going through some growing pains, hopefully that’s all. However, nice to see Garcia and Colvin doing so well. Man, Dom Brown is looking like a big time prospect! To think, I preferred Michael Taylor and his right handed stick. I guess that is why the Phils are good at what they do. No more Gregg Leggs and Rich Schus.

  26. Dom really put it all together this year…its exciting when a prospect with great tools puts it together like he has. Not to say he was bad before this year…he wasn’t. He was very solid…just not ridiculous like he has been so far this year.

  27. Lenny, you answered your question in your post

    You talked that he “may continue to do in the future.” If he had enough of a track record to trust, you would have the confidence to say that he WOULD continue in the future. Truth is, no one knows what he is. You also said he didn’t perform “badly” … that is not an endorsement when you say someone wasn’t that bad. He wasn’t that good either. He’s 24 in AA with his FIRST dominant stretch. No one in their right might would give up much for him and he has nowhere to play for us. I think the best thing we could do is hope he continues this year, does it again next year and THEN you may have a tradeable asset.

  28. Lenny, the main problem isn’t that people don’t believe Rizzotti could possibly be a major leaguer (even though there are questions about whether he will be), it’s that he’s limited to first base. What are the Phillies going to do with him? He’s not gonna force Howard out of town and if he ends up as a bench bat, that’s great- he can sit on the pine all year and get into the 2-3 games a year that Howard doesn’t play, plus pinch hitting. Obviously, if another team thinks he could play first or DH for them, he’s more valuable to the Phillies as a trade piece.

  29. To follow up on Handzus … if we know this, other teams know this as well, which, would have the effect of lowering his value a bit. Teams know he has no future with us, so that’s just another challenge in any potential trade.

  30. It’s a shame that Rizzotti can only play 1st. He reminds me a little of this years breakout player for the Tigers, Brennan Boesch, he really didn’t perform well at all until his age 24 season when he led AA in homeruns. And then, of course, this year (age 25) he got a shot and he’s doing quite well with a 1.000 ops. But, he only got a shot because Guillen got hurt and Boesch could play the outfield. Rizzotti’s only shot with the Phillies is probably Howard getting injured, and with the way this season is going. . .

  31. Look guys, I don’t want to beat a dead horse and most of what I have to say I’ve said before in earlier posts. Here goes for those who may have missed them.

    Will Rozzitti ever play first base for the Phillies even if he were a solid, dependable .350 hitter – I doubt it. So what are the reasonable options. Try him in left field. Does he run worse than Lunzinski? If that is not an option in the opinion of the pros, then play him at first base which he can play. Not all teams are blocked at first base and who wouldn’t give up A LOT for someone who could hit .350.

    Can he really continue to hit the way he does now? Neither I nor anyone else knows for sure, only time will tell. If the answer is no, what have we lost by waiting and finding out – some fringe player in a trade? Suppose the answer is yes, what is he worth then – how much is Howard worth? To me the choice is clear cut.

  32. OK Lenny, I think we are saying the same thing. There is no point in trading him this year since he doesn’t have much trade value. If that is what you are saying, I agree whole heartedly. If he mashes the rest of this year and does the same thing next year at AAA, then you may have a tradeable asset.

    Is that what you are saying?

  33. Lenny: no one’s going to give up “a lot” for him, not until he has more of a track record. Doesn’t mean that some day he’s not going to be good, just that teams are wary of statistically outlier stats.

  34. He’s not going to hit .350 in the majors. If he keeps hitting .350 in the minors, then yeah it will help his value, but he’s never going to get a chance to prove he can hit in the majors unless Howard gets injured.

    I think it’s fine to wait a little bit and see if Rizz can raise his trade value by continuing on this pace, but it’s more likely that he’ll cool off. If another team is offering anything decent for Rizzotti or a package in which he’s a prominent piece, I don’t see how the Phils could afford not to pull the trigger. PP wrote up a pretty good peice on Rizzotti, the BABIP and home/road splits seem to indicate that he hasn’t suddenly turned into Babe Ruth. Again, trading him obviously depends on the return, but whether it happens sooner or later, that’s the best we can hope for with him.

  35. I think the annoying part of the Rizzotti discussion is before he even had an AB at Reading, some looked at his age, read he wasn’t a great first baseman, and said no prospect, never will play in the big leagues. Well he just went out and played, and so far, no one can argue the results. We know he’s not a 5 tool guy, but a guy like Matt Stairs has made alot of money basically just hitting. So what if down the line he’s a tradeable piece, that fits in somewhere else? I know I will enjoy his progress, and let’s see how the Phillies work with him, and work out where he plays. Right now, he just continues to hit, and has opened some eyes.

  36. Lakewood is a team that makes it difficult to be a Lakewood fan. It seems as they have a pretty special group that you would love to see them play out the year as a team. They won again today and are now 5-1 in the second half. Shreve with 7 IP and only 1 hit and 1 ER. I do think they will be kept mostly intact, with some reinforcements coming like last year.

  37. The key part of “three years ago” is “ago” as in gone. Baseball is played in the here and now and right now Rizzotti is the hotest batter in the minors.
    Put it this these guys are here to improve (change) and if they do the past is meaningless.

  38. Wow … to say that what people do in the past is meaningless is just plain wrong. So in your mind, since Rizz is the hottest player in the minors, we should be able to get a top player in a trade. What do you think people base future potential on? Current performance sure is considered, but so is past performance. RIGHT NOW, Rizz is an outlier based on his past performance. Maybe YOU don’t think it’s important, but I’d bet the people who get paid to evaluate talent think it’s VERY important.

  39. I don’t think anyone here is going to say that there is a 0% chance Rizzotti is a useful major league player some day. What I think people are saying is that, his current trade value is impinged by his past performance. Referring back to my previous comparison to Boesch, he was ranked 25th or so among Tiger’s prospects by BA going into this season despite being a former 3rd rd pick and having already led AA in homeruns. This is because of his track record of performance leading up to that season. Rizzotti has 1/2 season of really hitting well. Let him keep doing it into next season and his value will be much higher than it is today.

  40. OK it looks to me like we’re all more or less pretty much agreed on Rizz although we just present our thoughts in slightly different ways. The only thing I would still disagree on (very gently) is the notion that if he continued to hit the way he now is and repeated it again next year, that he would not become a hot commodity. How can that be. He would be leading the league in BA by 30 points now if he had enough Ab to count and by 20 points if you combine all his ABs this year. If he continued it this year and did it again next year in 3A do you really think teams wouldn’t be lined up to get him?

    Enough, I said I had finished what I had to say and I see I have not kept to my word – I will now.

  41. I’m new here at pp, and I see a lot on cosart. I checked his stats and they’re good, but not amazing.

  42. Anon –

    Stats don’t always tell the whole story – scouting reports are a huge contributor to a guy’s prospectness/prospectitude/prospectability. In Cosart’s case, scouts are in love with his arm – which has some serious velocity – and his frame.

    That being said, certain stats are more meaningful when looking at minor leaguers – when dealing with pitchers, K/innings pitched is a huge one, and Cosart is striking out more than a batter per inning. He also has a low amount of walks, which is another great sign. Going with the low BB total is that he has only given up 60 hits in 70 innings, giving him an impressive WHIP (walks + hits/ innings pitched) of slightly more than one. To go one step even further, he gives up a lot of grounders – hence the GO/AO average of 1.93 (ground out to out ratio, meaning he gets almost two grounders for every liner/flyball). These are all stats that have all of us here very excited.

    – Jeff

    p.s. Sorry if my tone is patronizing, or if I’m telling you stuff you already know. When I first started hanging out at this site, I probably wouldn’t been all that excited about Cosart either.

  43. For what it is worth I think the Phils will trade Rizzoti for sure now. Its selling high, he could become a major leaguer, but does not have a place with the Phils

  44. Tom
    Maybe I stated that wrongly. The past isn’t meaningless. Its with young players once they go up the latter and change
    you can hold that 100% against them because they are no longer that player.
    For whatever reason Riz didn’t show his power in the lower
    levels. Now he does. Be it maturity,better coaching, a change in attitude or simply the light bulb turning on, to say Riz 2008 has much to do with today is iffy.
    A mature player with years in majors is more easy to judge.

  45. sell high on Rizz….Aumont Gillies Rizz and Mathieson should be close to getting us Lee back…im dreaming i know but it shouldnt be a dream…Ken Rosenthal said something like it shouldnt take as much as the last two Lee deals ( i totally disagree)

  46. How has no one mentioned that D Brown is currently 3 for 3 with a 2b and a home run tonight? This is getting absurd.

  47. Sam Soap – If that would get it done, I think RAJ would carry those four on his back to Seattle and kiss Lee’s behind all the way back to Philly.

    Maybe we could get a sympathy trade out of Seattle like we did out of the White Sox after they smoked Gillick on the Garcia trade. That got us a pity Iguchi when Utley broke his finger.

    Yeah, I think Rosenthal is smoking something that makes him feel taller and more masculine.

    I certainly do allow for the late bloomer argument in Rizzoti’s case. Vic was a late bloomer. Our own Larry Anderson didn’t get to the majors until 27, I think. And even Howard himself was a bit of a late bloomer. But after overpaying Howard for the rest of his career, there is no longer a reason for the Phils to develop first basemen except as trade chips. If Rizz can’t play the outfield, he’s going elsewhere. And if Singleton can’t play the outfield, he’s also going to be leaving. Until they are forced to eat 20 million of the 25 mil in the last few years of that awful contract and dump Howard for the same type of deal as Abreu, every first baseman in the minors is effectively blocked and a future trade chip.

  48. Is it possible that Brown is even better than everyone thought he was?

    Remember when Michael Taylor struggled for a few weeks every time they moved him up, then started tearing the league up? Well, Dom doesn’t seem to have that adjustment problem at all.

  49. How is it that people think Rizzotti’s past performance was bad? Don’t you read our host’s threads?

    “Rizzotti put up a .263/.351/.454 line in the FSL. The average batting line in the FSL was .252/.322/.363. That’s all players, including the legit prospects and the career minor leaguers who have no business being in the FSL. His 11.9% BB rate was impressive, and his ISO was close to .200.”

    Lakewood is also a terrible place to hit and the kid put up a .810 OPS there. Was 10th in the league, a big league with a lot of stars in it (Stanton, Montero, Fryer, to name three).

    He’s been good up until now. He’s great right now, hope it continues.

  50. Lee would take less to get in a trade because a team only gets him for half a year before he becomes a free agent, not a year and a half like last year. Not because he isn’t as good a pitcher or worth a lot to a team in contention.

  51. Eric Pettis (35th rd) is better than Cosart and Colvin. 🙂

    Seriously though he has started nicely. 7 IP, 0 R, 1 H, 0 BB’s and 9 K’s today. 17 IP, 1 R, 9 H, 1 BB and 20 K’s in 3 starts. 2.0 GO/AO.

    Not that it really means anything. Just curious if anyone has more info than 22 y.o. from UC Irvine?

  52. Michael Schwimer, Tagg Bozied, Vance Worley, and MATT RIZZOTTI are the guys representing Reading Phils in the Eastern league all star game.

  53. Philychuck thank you for putting up an intelligent post backed by factual stats from Rizz’s past. For whatever reason, almost everyone, (NOT ALL) seem to think that Rizz never even had a hit before this year…Evidence that Matt Rizzotti existed, and in good measure before 2010. Well said my man. Thank you.

  54. Look, no one is saying that Rizzotti is a complete fluke/non-prospect. And PP himself, in a post a few days ago, which expressed some skepticism and some guarded optimism, pointed out (via SONAR scores that his prior numbers looked a little better than many people realized.

    A realistic assessment of him at this point is that he is now a real prospect – with a good chance to have a role on a major league team, and maybe even as a regular. That’s a lot more than most minor leaguers can look forward to.

    But we’re reacting to people who, based upon a small sample size, seem to be projecting him to big league stardom, or close to it. Anyone expecting him to be better than an average ML firstbaseman, or people who want to try to convert a big, slow player how has trouble defending first base to the outfield, or think he is going to be the main piece in a trade for a 2/3 starter, are kidding themselves.

    I mean, one poster was suggesting that Amaro might trade him for Ted Lilly – and from the context of his post, it was clear he thought such a deal would be a bad one for the Phillies!!!! That’s crazy.

    Now, if he could play the outfield decently or even at all, I think you might find people getting a little more excited about him. But he can’t.

  55. Well If Domonic keeps this up. Hes going to be hard for the big club to ignore. I mean WOW this kid is a super star.

  56. Phillychuck
    I second Peco Pick. It seems when something good happens,a portion of the bloggers have to pull it down with
    arguments that are …… (fill in the blank). I don’t know where
    Rizzotti lands but either does anyone else. At this point you can not get fair value. A September call up would improve that situation. AAA soon! Not a single thing to lose.
    As for him not being able to play the outfield, he will prove yes or no, not someone on a computer who has his mind made up.

  57. Since Raul is hot maybe a trade to the American League is possible even if it cost some money. It would be a chance but
    with Jurrgens back something has to be done.

  58. You think teams are calling up the Phillies asking about Ibanez? The dude is hitting .241, is 38 years old, and has at least $18M still owed to him. He’s not going anywhere.

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